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diff --git a/44008-0.txt b/44008-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..21a43ec --- /dev/null +++ b/44008-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,45264 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44008 *** + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ VIII + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume +VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. +O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle +Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were +associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn +Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, +Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and +Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while +he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick +Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George +Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis +Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., +Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis +Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service +in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who +saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. +Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. +Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became +acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in +1962. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + Edward Voebel 1 + William E. Wulf 15 + Bennierita Smith 21 + Frederick S. O'Sullivan 27 + Mildred Sawyer 31 + Anne Boudreaux 35 + Viola Peterman 38 + Myrtle Evans 45 + Julian Evans 66 + Philip Eugene Vinson 75 + Hiram Conway 84 + Lillian Murret 91 + Marilyn Dorothea Murret 154 + Charles Murret 180 + John M. Murret 188 + Edward John Pic, Jr 196 + John Carro 202 + Renatus Hartogs 214 + Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel 224 + Nelson Delgado 228 + Daniel Patrick Powers 266 + John E. Donovan 289 + Allison G. Folsom, Jr 303 + George Donabedian 311 + James Anthony Botelho 315 + Donald Peter Camarata 316 + Peter Francis Connor 317 + Allen D. Graf 317 + John Rene Heindel 318 + David Christie Murray, Jr 319 + Paul Edward Murphy 319 + Henry J. Roussel, Jr 320 + Mack Osborne 321 + Richard Dennis Call 322 + Erwin Donald Lewis 323 + Martin Isaacs 324 + Pauline Virginia Bates 330 + Max E. Clark 343 + George A. Bouhe 355 + Anna N. Meller 379 + Elena A. Hall 391 + John Raymond Hall 406 + Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) 415 + Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin 425 + Igor Vladimir Voshinin 448 + + + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + + Page + Bates Exhibit No. 1 340 + Carro Exhibit No. 1 213 + Donabedian Exhibit No. 1 312 + Folsom Exhibit No. 1 304 + Hartogs Exhibit No. 1 220 + Isaacs Exhibit No.: + 1 328 + 2 328 + 3 328 + Siegel Exhibit No.: + 1 227 + 2 228 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL + +The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old +Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., +by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being +duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Edward Voebel? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is your place of business? + +Mr. VOEBEL. At the same place. + +Mr. JENNER. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's here in New Orleans? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your +mother and father, are you not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Mother, uncle, and grandmother. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is your business? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Quality Florist Co. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your age, Mr. Voebel? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I am 23. + +Mr. JENNER. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of +the Warren Commission, did you not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate +Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to +investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is +that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. +Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is +that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take +testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as +this one. You received that also? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you gather from those documents that the +Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and +circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the +late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of +the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking +depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey +Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of +their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of +the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some +contact with him; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a few questions about that. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey +Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that +came about. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about +1954 or 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole +story? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would +like to have a little background in the record before we go into that. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, +because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing +who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this +fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and +tried to patch him up a bit. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you +remember? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances of that, please. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee +had a fight with a couple of boys. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names? + +Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike. + +Mr. JENNER. John and Mike? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They were classmates? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as +Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a +grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight +with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I +think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the +street in the direction naturally in which I was going. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and +people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, +and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run +them off of one block, they would go on to the next. + +Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so. + +Mr. JENNER. How about size? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than +Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you +not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. +The fight traveled my route home. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the +street? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the +little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was +two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch +to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer. + +Mr. JENNER. The little boy? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that +happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for +some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against +one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that +this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that +this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his +lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the +boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit +him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody +off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that +time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth +bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think +I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day +or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, +and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple +of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I +didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick. + +Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous +football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him +really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, +and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help +him. + +Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the +post on him. + +Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. +That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on +Lee at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble +he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think +this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, +so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this +happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they +were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him +up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, +began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I +would say. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he +was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was +cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point +on, would you say? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and +share interests, and what were his interests? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never +even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown--I told +the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but +actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I +did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and +sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. +Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to +come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you accept his invitation? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's when we played darts. + +Mr. JENNER. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. On Exchange Alley. + +Mr. JENNER. Exchange Alley? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you find him adept in playing pool? + +Mr. VOEBEL. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the +fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating +him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that +good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I +don't think he was a great pool player. + +Mr. JENNER. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to +the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he liked it. + +Mr. JENNER. He liked to play pool? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he seemed to like it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a +picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the +paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a +lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met +her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had +a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, +maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind +as I recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you smoke? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee smoke? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you drink? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't, really. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you drink occasionally? + +Mr. VOEBEL. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a +drinker. + +Mr. JENNER. How about Lee, was he a drinker? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen +or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot +of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for +drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I +think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind. + +There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and +that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, +which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so +he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the +others. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what +you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time +you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. +That's my problem. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a +man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 +or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you +were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. +People change, of course. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. +I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee +Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, +but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school +together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think +in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had +the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that +I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would +have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the +Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't +know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost +contact with Lee years ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, +that was my impression of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you +say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at +Beauregard School while you were attending there? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be +troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at +that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a +fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to +fight at that school. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of +characters that were going to that school at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that +in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or +inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just +the opposite of that; isn't that true? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight +a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but +if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he +ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going +to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I +might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, +now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if +you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of +his way to avoid it. + +Mr. JENNER. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't +want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was +a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to +speak? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a coeducational school? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. High school or junior high? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a +grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when +it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. +As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, +but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very +often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang +wars and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. You still live close to the school? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near +there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, +pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long +time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it +was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics +people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there +for about a year, and then he disappeared. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go to Warren Easton? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I went to Fortier. + +Mr. JENNER. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High +School to then enroll in Warren Easton? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's normally right. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the regular progression? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him +after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during +that summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, +or what? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. Let's see--no; I think we were in the +same grade, I think we were. + +Mr. JENNER. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I went to Fortier. + +Mr. JENNER. Any reason? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system. + +Mr. JENNER. That's why you went over there? + +Mr. VOEBEL. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a service man? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what branch? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Army. + +Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we +had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and +stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember +participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't +remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym +periods were different. + +I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so +there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a +lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't think Lee did? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule +accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone +comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or +clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just +like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody +new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the +community before they accepted him. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that +compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when +you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, +you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody. + +Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh, +maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue, +I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time +a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face +something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he +joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was +the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and +adolescent things. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force, +whatever it was; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; he met it head on. + +Mr. JENNER. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid +it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I +think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They +thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used +to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always +be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they +would hang around in bunches. + +In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school +where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked, +so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and +finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after +school, almost the same way this happened to Lee. + +Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of +people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk +myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was +inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't +fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over +to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using +all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle +ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just +had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs. + +Mr. JENNER. They didn't attack you any more? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was +normal, having in mind the problems he was facing? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, except that he didn't make friends. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; he was not inclined to make friends. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't know why he was so disinclined? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. +It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. +He was just living in his own world, let's say. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did have some measure of common interest that you +told me about? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you +have in mind? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns. + +Mr. JENNER. And these were regular weapons, not toys? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a +collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few +foreign military weapons. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that World War I? + +Mr. VOEBEL. World War II. + +Mr. JENNER. Your uncle? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, my uncle. + +Mr. JENNER. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is +that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around +the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and +I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old, +you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt +about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same +reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like +anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always +liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often +thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had +this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones +they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any +weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he +wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting +them or anything. + +I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and +cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to +want something just to have it, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You couldn't interest him in that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music, +and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things, +and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't +seem to run that way. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he interested in music? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; he wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I never had seen him drive at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the subject with him? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or +couldn't drive an automobile? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was +interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went +fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They +were no bigger than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Almost minnows? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right, and I think he liked to fish. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about fishing? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed +fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although +I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went +fishing that day. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Financial circumstances? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his +finances. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Poor. + +Mr. JENNER. Poor? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. That made no difference to you? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter +whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are +very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. +It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't +fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some +class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an +interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less +common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested +in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like +that, because I don't have the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you married? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you get out of the service? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Two years ago. I just served 6 months. + +Mr. JENNER. That's a sort of special program? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army +Terminal and also take in the World's Fair? + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say +you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the +apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot +pool? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or +three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late +in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a +couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at +all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons +and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them +out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever own a weapon? + +Mr. VOEBEL. A real one? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something +there that you want to tell me about? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45. + +Mr. JENNER. A plastic model? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now +about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed +with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about +stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother +me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and +everything that he needed for a burglary, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, we were over at Easton. + +Mr. JENNER. Easton High School? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were +putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high +school. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that right at the time you were graduating from +Beauregard? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from +Beauregard; right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard +altogether? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Or was that at Easton? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for +about a year? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been +over there, but I don't remember that at all. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go on with your story. + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we +were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the +plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed +a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his +plan was to steal it. + +Mr. JENNER. It wasn't one of these collector's items? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell +you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was +just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an +automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention +to it. + +Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the pistol in the window? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following +week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and +a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to +how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean in the Rampart Street store? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this +plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the +glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he +was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told +me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the +window and everything, and I didn't know what to tell him, so he said, +"Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind +it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we +walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the +window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was. + +He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him. +I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice +this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar +alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk +him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think +that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that +tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed +me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the +inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try +it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he +finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal +Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window, +such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway, +he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was +the end of that. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, it was just a real cheap one. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a plate glass window, though, you say? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass +window with a glass cutter? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the +cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really +wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was +really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got +in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it +seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point +where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through +with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look +back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if +he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you +know, but I am just speculating on that, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean the politics in the pure sense. + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to +be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things +about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back +when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney. + +Mr. JENNER. You and he never discussed anything like that, then? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at +that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like +political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot +of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even +know that. I know we never discussed anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the +service, I believe; is that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have +two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing. + +Mr. JENNER. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or +playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were +they? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No, I never saw them. I never met them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee +and his mother? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you +usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my +opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as +Lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and I think +she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like +Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time. + +I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was +something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her +children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I +guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to +him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about +anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean, +did he cut her off short in any way? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at +that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other +kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are +normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to +a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his +mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you +know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a +mamma's boy. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; never. He was no mamma's boy. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often +indulgent toward him? + +Mr. VOEBEL. In one way; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In which way was that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she +would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even +if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course, +if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for +him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything +like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe +he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but +that's just the way he was. + +Mr. JENNER. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as +to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his +father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal +in life. What was his attitude about that, if any? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his +father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his +father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's +unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt +bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked +about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard +together. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever come over to your house? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for +sure, but I don't think he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you active in sports? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Just in intramurals. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he play any intramurals? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so +I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think +everybody had to play some intramural sports. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling +that there were things that should have been accorded him by way +of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been +deprived because his father had predeceased him? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Did he have a feeling of that at that time? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOEBEL. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those +thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than +it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly +good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. We would play darts and +play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you +that impression? + +Mr. VOEBEL. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I +am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination +occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we +were in Beauregard together. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the +impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as +compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this +man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy. + +Mr. VOEBEL. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I +think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course, +at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind +trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out +looking for something like that unless you have a reason. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that +Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you +not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around +and associating with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you put any credence in that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one +that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one +to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be +reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal +things that kids read. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you a voracious reader in those days? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the +time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great +reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I +guess you would say. + +Mr. JENNER. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me, +even music when I first started with it. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you still interested in music? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I still play music. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with +Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity +of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand +then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to +mix with people; that's all. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that +has remained in your mind all these years? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted +to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you +see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that +maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. +Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't +tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I +knew how he didn't like to mix with people. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this +horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of +Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and +behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since +his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; +is that right? + +Mr. JENNER. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, +and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of +a gang at school, or anything like that? + +Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were going to Beauregard? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look +for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few +friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that +seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more +or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to. + +Mr. JENNER. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his +studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that +right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he was just an average student. + +Mr. JENNER. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do +you know? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his +attendance was pretty good. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was not much on the Marines. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with +Lee? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about his brothers? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but +there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his +brothers--I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I +have no impression of that whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received +his just dues in the world up to that point? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't +really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression. +That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this. + +Mr. JENNER. But did you have such an impression at that time? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I +said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing +because you have a previous impression; isn't that true? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression +at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I +think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter +toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my +opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were +going to Beauregard, to the same school. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your +opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, +and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that statement? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later. + +Mr. JENNER. And you don't think you had those impressions then? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that embitterment directed toward? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority. + +Mr. JENNER. You noticed that at that time, did you? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do, +or made to do something. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think they have two. + +Mr. JENNER. Two? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there two here at that time? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking +about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he +attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently +bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember, +in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again. + +Mr. JENNER. He just attended two meetings of the CAP? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Two or three meetings, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's all he attended? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when +Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that +I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but +he might have been. That isn't too clear to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join +the unit? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to +be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it +was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he +was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't +attend any more meetings. + +Mr. JENNER. You thought that was strange? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my +opinion now, I guess--not then, but I think now maybe he liked the +uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those +classes that we had. + +Mr. JENNER. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that +Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just +didn't show up any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require +some study? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of +his earlier life? + +Mr. VOEBEL. His "history"? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; his background--anything about his family before he +ever met you? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but +he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or +anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here +from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I +don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he +wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at +that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all +this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things +like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and +things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to +anyone in your presence, that you recall? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, +just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he +did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would +impress me so that I would remember it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a +week, or how often? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have +actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe +attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a +sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the +whole thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those +classes? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the +weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but +maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this CAP unit coeducational? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, +isn't that right? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out +there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it. + +Mr. JENNER. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these +classes? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They +might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest +me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they interest Lee? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't +show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind? + +Mr. VOEBEL. None whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in +that respect? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't +pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it? + +Mr. VOEBEL. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. +I think that was probably it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that you can think of from your +acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you +could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what +I have asked you? + +Mr. VOEBEL. No; I can't think of anything else. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of +reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege +and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on +to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be +transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know +when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in +that regard? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told +you what I know about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You prefer to waive that then? + +Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF + +The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized +to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week---- + +Mr. WULF. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Advising you that I would be in touch with you---- + +Mr. WULF. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I +understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive +order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well +as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony. + +Mr. WULF. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did receive the letter, et cetera? + +Mr. WULF. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge +that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New +Orleans during the period 1954-55. Before we get into the details of +that, however, would you state your full name for the record. + +Mr. WULF. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. WULF. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf? + +Mr. WULF. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed? + +Mr. WULF. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New +Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What are you majoring in? + +Mr. WULF. History. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been attending LSU? + +Mr. WULF. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You obtained your primary education and secondary +education here in New Orleans? + +Mr. WULF. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you obtain that education, what schools? + +Mr. WULF. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh +grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De +La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu +High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then from there you went to LSU? + +Mr. WULF. LSU, right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military +service? + +Mr. WULF. No. I am exempted at this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has received information to the effect +that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy +Association---- + +Mr. WULF. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct? + +Mr. WULF. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or +what was it at that time? + +Mr. WULF. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school +students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in +astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is the group still active? + +Mr. WULF. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls +of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact +that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in +college. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans +Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were +contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WULF. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed +this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at +this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is Palmer McBride? + +Mr. WULF. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted +me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was--I had +originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and +all, probably it was September or August in 1955. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you? + +Mr. WULF. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had +talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they +were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe +he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group +and I told him--he asked me could he come over to the house one time, +and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed +between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow that called you and then came over to your +house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct? + +Mr. WULF. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to +associate Oswald with this particular person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This association was made by you at some time subsequent +to the assassination. Is that correct? + +Mr. WULF. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night +following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call +from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been +employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental +Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald---- + +Mr. WULF. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New +Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture, +and then I subsequently found out--I confirmed it when I asked the FBI +agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and +he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same +person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee +Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you +saw in the paper? + +Mr. WULF. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then as a result of that association, you asked the +FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's? + +Mr. WULF. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the +association, other than--I must stipulate at this time that when I had +met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would +like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI +interviewed you? + +Mr. WULF. I have no idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not contact the FBI? + +Mr. WULF. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it +was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos +on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as +everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not +think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even +surprised that I got your letter from the Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way +as to how they had been led to you? + +Mr. WULF. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that +knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride, +so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the +subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they +got this particular knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you +remember? + +Mr. WULF. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records +from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954--that is a rough +date--probably towards the end, probably--let's see--I am trying to +associate it with the Astronomy Club dates--towards the end of the +school year 1954-55, so that would probably be in--oh, March and April, +around that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1955? + +Mr. WULF. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I +could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to +join the Astronomy Association---- + +Mr. WULF. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride +and become a friend of his after that? + +Mr. WULF. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact +with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the +city I still see him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental +Laboratory? Is that right? + +Mr. WULF. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I +don't know the exact title of his position. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald? + +Mr. WULF. Only at the time that--two occasions or possibly three--I +think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of +Oswald's beliefs, and I told--McBride had always told me that he +wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket +engineering and rocketry--like we all were nuts on rocketry at the +time--and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with +him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want +to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a +security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that +correct? + +Mr. WULF. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What led you to make that statement to McBride? + +Mr. WULF. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting +with Oswald when we got into a discussion--I being a history major +and always been interested in history, some way or another we got +around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was +reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding +the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in +communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et +cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for +a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a +little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that +would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after +this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back +and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard +what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, +boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put +him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with +Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and +boisterous? + +Mr. WULF. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous +person? + +Mr. WULF. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over +communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue +with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right +before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to +Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous +boy and very determined in his way about communism. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or +strongheaded about other things? + +Mr. WULF. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought +he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in +other words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then there never was any question of physical---- + +Mr. WULF. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Contact over this thing? + +Mr. WULF. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a strongly presented argument? + +Mr. WULF. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started +hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through +Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him +violently, and he asked him to leave the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your father a native of Germany? + +Mr. WULF. Hamburg. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he had been involved in some political activities +with or opposed to the Communists? + +Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany +following the war, 1919-20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic +Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and +he just--well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't +like Communists. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything about the details of your first +meeting with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. WULF. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that +he asked--we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the +conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck +me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the +time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered +in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we +were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data +we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be +hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him +from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of +the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3 +o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was at a meeting of the association? + +Mr. WULF. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house. +It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something +like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and +just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is +somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at +that time? + +Mr. WULF. Not at that time; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you remember anything else about the second +meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us? + +Mr. WULF. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed +communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made +Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that +way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little +about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and I +can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist, +he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist +Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to +find a Communist organization? + +Mr. WULF. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name +Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking +for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he +couldn't---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Couldn't find one? + +Mr. WULF. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as +this with McBride? + +Mr. WULF. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride +and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when +we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent +leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop +associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except +for, you know, working hours. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed +communism with him? + +Mr. WULF. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were +on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social +association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys +struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had +quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and +I think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they +were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and +McBride? Is that correct? + +Mr. WULF. On this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for +one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that +they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were +that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride--he +wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more +money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and +not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride +associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after +this second visit that--we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald +specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable +on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy +Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite +conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I +was quite conscious of security matters and all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest +in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations? + +Mr. WULF. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was +strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any +belief in communism. + +Mr. LIEBELER. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two +pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and +453-B." + +Mr. WULF. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in +those pictures? + +Mr. WULF. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo +453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on +"Pizzo 453-A." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You recognize that as Oswald? + +Mr. WULF. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I +subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can +associate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these +pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of---- + +Mr. WULF. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints--I can tell by the grain--and +they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are +the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what +you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do +not associate the other man marked---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your +observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having +seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper? + +Mr. WULF. No; I base that picture on--when I first saw those films +originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling +that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it +was many years ago, it was--oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was +younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but +he seems to me to be the same person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the +logical steps that---- + +Mr. WULF. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that logical association is the association that we +have already described throughout this record? + +Mr. WULF. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New +Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know +for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that +year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his +mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him. +McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had +asked him about it because of his attitudes and such. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his +mother? + +Mr. WULF. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like +this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is +hearsay, of course, through McBride--that his mother didn't associate +with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as +such. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in +1955-56? + +Mr. WULF. Right, 1955. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the +assassination? + +Mr. WULF. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once, +and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram +requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no +answer, and we were wondering where he is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If +you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like +to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would +appreciate it if you would add it. + +Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. The only thing I can--I don't know how +many people have told you of this period of his life--I amplify that +at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently +for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young +at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for +communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing +that did hit me, he seemed--I told this to McBride at the time--he +seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I +don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may +have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to +associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and +at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, +and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to +become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time, +and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to +Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the +time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to +thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent +that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much. + +Mr. WULF. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH + +The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized +to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the +authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I +would be in touch with you concerning your testimony. + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the +Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred, +as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission +concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. +Rankin's letter and those documents? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to +the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged +assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at +some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into +the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name +for the record, if you will. + +Mrs. SMITH. Bennierita Smith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are married? Is that correct? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your name before you were married? + +Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio. My maiden name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mrs. SMITH. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born? + +Mrs. SMITH. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us your educational background, +please. + +Mrs. SMITH. Starting from kindergarten? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue +in Lakeview. Then I went--it was either the third or fourth grade I +transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview +School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and +that is all the schooling I have had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate? + +Mrs. SMITH. 1958. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you attended +Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended +Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and +well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always +getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well +outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in +fights? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what you know about that? + +Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was +this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight +with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit +Lee, and his tooth came through his lip. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip? + +Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that +boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so +well? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel? + +Mrs. SMITH. That is him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l? + +Mrs. SMITH. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of +patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he +didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the +only one I remember. And they had this little boy--I think it was Bobby +Newman--he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much +about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was? + +Mrs. SMITH. Bobby Newman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bobby Newman? + +Mrs. SMITH. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to +me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far +as--I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with +other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or +less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung +around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Mr. Voebel? + +Mrs. SMITH. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I +knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well, +I knew his sisters. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Voebel's sister? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris--and they call +the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one +you described in which Oswald had his lip cut? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and +knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight +or that the other guy started the fight? + +Mrs. SMITH. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I +know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the +fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school +but he didn't go there, you know, he just---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same +age as the rest of the students? + +Mrs. SMITH. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to +Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, +and I am almost sure he was older than her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; I sure don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which +Oswald was involved? + +Mrs. SMITH. That is all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the television program that was played over +WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to +my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he +called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I +thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been +such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they +were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he +wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't +anything I knew about him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter? + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them. +And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and +pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my +girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school +with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so +happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I +told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in the television program? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; the three of us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Three of you would be yourself--and what were the names +of the other two girls? + +Mrs. SMITH. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of +yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right? + +Mrs. SMITH. Larry and Bob? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. SMITH. No; Larry--I met Larry--gee, I don't even remember--I +guess maybe at a school dance or something--and I went out with him, +and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to +see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get +some--well, more or less a story together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the other boy? + +Mrs. SMITH. Bob Jones? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, he broadcasts the news. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He works for the television station? + +Mrs. SMITH. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we +just answered him, but I didn't know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You +mentioned this fight to him? + +Mrs. SMITH. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we +knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as--like we +would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in +class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he lived? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details +about Lee Oswald than you did? + +Mrs. SMITH. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, +that he always wore these sweater vests--they are more or less in style +now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school--it was just +like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe +he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl +friend told him about that, and--I am trying to remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was +that something that one of your girl friends remembered? + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him +dressing that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this +first? + +Mrs. SMITH. I think it was Peggy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Peggy? + +Mrs. SMITH. Peggy Zimmerman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else that the three of you were able +to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by +the television people or after that? + +Mrs. SMITH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was +this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald +being involved in? + +Mrs. SMITH. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was +in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that? + +Mrs. SMITH. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother +who told her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the +time he went to Beauregard? + +Mrs. SMITH. Not that I know of, not in school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any +close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the +possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right? + +Mrs. SMITH. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a +sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed? + +Mrs. SMITH. He wore levis, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that different from what the other students wore? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants +or khakis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of +the way he dressed or the way he---- + +Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed +around by the other boys for any reason? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about +Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is +there, or---- + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall +in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just +show his back and--but there isn't anything other than that fight. I +think that is what made me remember him the most. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar +or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way +in which he walked? + +Mrs. SMITH. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they +just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight +with them or---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody? + +Mrs. SMITH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know how this fight---- + +Mrs. SMITH. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I +say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see, +they were fighting, but I really---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this? + +Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't seen him--gee, I guess since I graduated +from Beauregard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located? + +Mrs. SMITH. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near +the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street +from St. Anthony's Church. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it +out farther? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; well, it is further down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now? + +Mrs. SMITH. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal +Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here +[indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Quite a way from here? + +Mrs. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride +practically to the end of the line. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you got to Beauregard? + +Mrs. SMITH. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end +of the streetcar line. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be several miles from here, would it not? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I guess--let's see--it must be about the 4000 or +6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the 6000 block? + +Mrs. SMITH. I think so. I am not sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is Beauregard we are talking about? + +Mrs. SMITH. Beauregard; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me the area the people that went to +Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area +surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans, +or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school? + +Mrs. SMITH. Each high school has its own district, so that the people +that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly, +you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school +board. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district +was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955? + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has it changed much since then? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or +middle-class neighborhood? + +Mrs. SMITH. Middle-class neighborhood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the +time that he went to Beauregard, do you? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record a minute. + +(Discussion off the record) + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior +High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a +particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than +Beauregard? + +Mrs. SMITH. That draws from a district too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that district included the district encompassed by +Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; and also, well, around Easton. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard +Junior High School District, does it not? + +Mrs. SMITH. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically +went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but +it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened, +it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Lee Oswald attended Warren Easton High +School? + +Mrs. SMITH. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't, +but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking +outside of school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But nothing else? + +Mrs. SMITH. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton +other than that, I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that +stands out in your mind? + +Mrs. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton? +Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating +from Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it was right after we had started at Warren Easton. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself did graduate from Warren Easton, did you not? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is +that right? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of +time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; just--I may have just seen him once or twice at the +beginning of the school year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the +same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social +background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School? + +Mrs. SMITH. I think so, but there were a few kids--well, boys--that +were---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say? + +Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There were people from a different class or different +group of society? + +Mrs. SMITH. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I +don't know how true it is, but that is what they say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or +heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you? + +Mrs. SMITH. No; I never have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I +haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would +set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we +haven't covered? + +Mrs. SMITH. There isn't anything else I can think of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to +thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that +you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very +much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN + +The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7-8, 1964, +at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that +I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, +and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and +the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules +of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of +witnesses. Did you receive the letter? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were +they not? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things the Commission is interested in is +the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the +extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in +evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was +alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge +that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the +record. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as +I understand. Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police +Department? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Six years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And how old are you now? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Twenty-six. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a +junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; Beauregard Junior High. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Beauregard Junior High? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. On Canal Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard +Junior High School? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to Beauregard? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. One year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And where did you go prior to that time? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. St. Dominic's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. St. Dominic's? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Elementary school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In Lakeview in New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Beauregard, where did you go? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans also? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend college at any place? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a +police department scholarship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald +when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him, +what contacts you had with him, just the whole story. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while +I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet +members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at +the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was +Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel--I am not sure how that name is +spelled--and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was +I noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was a marching team? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself +always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, +that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders +back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really +fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could--well, he even +gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he +ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the +three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out +there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at +school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the +airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or +two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then +joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a +closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to +the squadron he had joined. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At Moisant Field? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. At Moisant Airport. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald--I didn't know this until I +read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short +time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived +either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New +Orleans? Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from +French Street around 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the +time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his +friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of +our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, +but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of +the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of--I was an +athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a +thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What particular sport were you involved in? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do +with sports activities? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close +acquaintances at that time, or do you know? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and +went out to Moisant and evidently--or I believe he talked Oswald into +coming out there with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not +Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had +uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport +and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot +of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether +they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more +cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can +check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to +Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol +program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the +NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to +summer camp we would fire on the range. + +Mr. LIEBELER. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer +camp? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National +Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of +any kind in connection with CAP activities? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any +rifle practice in connection with the CAP? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David +Ferrie? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans +Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that +correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there +was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am +not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He +could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when +he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with +the Moisant squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when +Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when +he went to Moisant Airport. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated +with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I am not sure of any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no +direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would lead you to +believe that there was a relationship between these two men? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went +through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get +some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me +up at home, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were these files located? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. These files are in the possession of one Robert +Boylston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all +were, at New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did the records come to be in his possession? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently +dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just +turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old +records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course, +I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and +what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much. +Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything in these files that related to +Ferrie or Oswald? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing +in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all +that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the +Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and +we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in +a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron +in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald. +I don't know if he was involved, he could have been. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you found nothing in the files? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Nothing concrete. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald +and Ferrie? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that there has been +publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible +relationship between Oswald and Ferrie? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am +sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this +Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I +don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under +investigation of whatever it was, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you go ahead. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans +Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New +Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to +check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been +flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald +to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we +found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had +flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to +see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, +and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an +airplane. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice +activities here in New Orleans? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the +whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, +homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we +handle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection +with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct? + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We +have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now see if you can recall or think back to your +experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you +can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want +to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and +his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this +ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this +correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would +like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else. +I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if +I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure, +but there is nothing else I can think of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if +there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of +the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation. + +Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER + +The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to +take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that +we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony. + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the +Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just +referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the +taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct? + +Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr. +Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my +place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up +the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going +through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or +some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, +after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little +curious and looked, and I found that there was one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days' +notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3 +days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you +are here, I assume you will want to go ahead. + +Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid +there is very little I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but +one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much +background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the +hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in +fact he did assassinate the President. + +Mrs. SAWYER. I see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the +time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place +where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, +more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I +felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going +to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so, +whenever we wanted to, we could stay there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place +where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street, +and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you +remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage +there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some +little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an +engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in +and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have +someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, +way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was +quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around, +and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back +and forth ever since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without +looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My +husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3 +years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is +kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it +was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son, +were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and +they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and +I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all +about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI +sometime back in November? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and +that is when I realized that they were the same people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent +during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my +mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my +husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was +out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway +or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. +About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is +about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say +"little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely +remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly +hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once +in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I +was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and +he seemed quite polite. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a +little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as +I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he +actually is or was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange +Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called +Exchange Alley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was +working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been +trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I +believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember +which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was +buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she +might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in. +In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her +for anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs. +Oswald and this boy? Is that right? + +Mrs. SAWYER. That is all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or +same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, +combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a +small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and +I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building +going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close +to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that +lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home +before his mother and he was very quiet. + +Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home +before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I +say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the +door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and +undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had +been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very +low voiced and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any +scolding? + +Mrs. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the +things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, +especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very +much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out +at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something +like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any +conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my +own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with +other people, and I think neighbors especially. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or +anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come +and go? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock +in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes +I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock +or so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that +that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds +left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were +going or anything? + +Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about +where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me +that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and +shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I +came back, well, they were gone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or +particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him +to distinguish him from other boys his age? + +Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of, +and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke +to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very +average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked +and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. +About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was +rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during +that time? + +Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that +she probably had friends at the stores where she worked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them? + +Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If +you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that +you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you +can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered---- + +Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that +apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved +into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it +was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have +been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee +to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first +contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly? + +Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, +but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well +spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything +like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this +little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I +did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that +came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice +would be involved in anything like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever +hear him talking about politics to anybody? + +Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than +just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or +something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him +at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14 +years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would +have been quite---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious? + +Mrs. SAWYER. True. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think +of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming +over. + +Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself +personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the +cooperation that you have given us. + +Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is +so vague and such a little bit. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX + +The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first +being duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband's name is Edward? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general +counsel of the Commission, did you not? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution +137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the +assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I have the letter with me. + +Mr. JENNER. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the +United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its +powers and duties? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take +testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as +this one? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I therefore take it you understand from +those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed +to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the +assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of +November 1963? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of +the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see +if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in +its investigation. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact +with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, +information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the +Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because +these are always a little inconvenient, of course. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline +Street, is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Since 1932--no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15, +1942. + +Mr. JENNER. 1942, rather than 1932? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I am. + +Mr. JENNER. You were born here and reared here? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I was born in Louisiana, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. My husband too. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have a family? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I do. + +Mr. JENNER. How many children? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I have five children. + +Mr. JENNER. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11. + +Mr. JENNER. Two 16's? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you +know? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, Marguerite Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with her? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that +house? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a double house. + +Mr. JENNER. A double house? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that up and down, or side by side? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Two sides. + +Mr. JENNER. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Who occupies the other house? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. On the other side? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a Mr. Russo. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Russo? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I +moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. When you moved in? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; they were there already. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought +about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some +experiences with Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see +me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roach? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did she live? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their +babysitter. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; for the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she live in that neighborhood? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street. + +Mr. JENNER. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block +from the Port of Embarkation. + +Mr. JENNER. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. She actually moved into the home? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and +I moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. Shortly before that? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was +through her that I knew the house was going to be empty. + +Mr. JENNER. Through Mrs. Roach? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You had been acquainted with her for some time? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Roach? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little +bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June +or the latter part of May 1942. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with +respect to Lee's conduct? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Who, Mrs. Roach? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was +babysitting? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you +know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was +bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee then would have been about 2-1/2 years old, is that +right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A little more than that? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that +conversation with you. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She +said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the +chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a +gun or not, or what a gun was, would he? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy +gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time +with him. + +Mr. JENNER. She thought he exhibited fits of temper? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's +what she said. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the other two boys. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the +other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had +other boys. + +Mr. JENNER. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the +Secret Service? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; he came out three times to see me. + +Mr. JENNER. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in +the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors +sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever +moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too +quickly, I mean. + +Mr. JENNER. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was +her reputation for truth and veracity, for example? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to +me, I mean, the neighbors. + +Mr. JENNER. You never heard anything bad about her? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother +to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I +have never heard anything spoken about her. + +Mr. JENNER. When her son Lee was 2-1/2 years old, was she working at +that time? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I think she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that why she had to have a babysitter. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the +lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--Mrs. Roach. She's +deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there +when I moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012 +Bartholomew? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I +live. + +Mr. JENNER. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4 +blocks? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010 +Bartholomew? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she +left there. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. The one where I was living? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. They were rented, but now I own my home. + +Mr. JENNER. But they were being rented at that time? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The former landlady, is she alive? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; she's not. + +Mrs. JENNER. She's dead? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she's dead. + +Mr. JENNER. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard +of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me--until he +got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I +didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had--I +don't know if it's important or not---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. +We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts +and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs. +Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and +then they never came back for the money, I don't think. + +Mr. JENNER. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised +all my children with it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that right? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend +to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't +concerning them at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court +reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your +deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as +to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you +wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to +waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter +will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to +Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this +investigation. + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the +truth, and that's all I can do. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity +of reading and signing the deposition? + +Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here +voluntarily and giving us your statement. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN + +The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after +first being duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; that's Milfred. + +Mr. JENNER. Milfred? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name. + +Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Viola. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that V-i-o-l-a? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that +correct? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The general counsel of the Warren Commission? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't +there? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing +the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the +assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the +Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and +fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules +and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and +have testimony before the Commission; is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that +the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts +and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, +in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are +deposing various people around the country whose lives came into +contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or +possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you +have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. +Peterman? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I can only tell you what I know. + +Mr. JENNER. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are +you a native of this part of the country? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; New Orleans, La. + +Mr. JENNER. You were born here? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was your husband likewise born here? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is his business or occupation? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the +building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year. + +Mr. JENNER. He retired last year? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; since March last year. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite +Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 +Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years +ago that they lived there. + +Mr. JENNER. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see--I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 +years ago that I moved there. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she already living there when you moved there? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have +been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the +houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, +because she was in there first. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these relatively new houses? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; they were old places. + +Mr. JENNER. They had been lived in before? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that +across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side +of the street? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Right next door. There were three single homes on two +lots, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Three single-family dwellings on two lots? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; on two city lots. + +Mr. JENNER. Are they identical houses? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed +theirs up different, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe those houses for me. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. What do you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and +so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and +how large. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just +straight houses. + +Mr. JENNER. Four rooms and a bath? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what construction; wood? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Wood; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I had four children. + +Mr. JENNER. What were their ages around that time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. When she moved there and we moved there; right around +that time, you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; +my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8. + +Mr. JENNER. Your eldest child was a boy or girl? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. A girl. + +Mr. JENNER. And her present name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that--Herrmann? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n. + +Mr. JENNER. What's her first name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Marian is her first name. + +Mr. JENNER. Does she still live in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, she lives down in Chalmette. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that near here? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a city? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. What, Chalmette? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St. +Bernard. + +Mr. JENNER. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She's now what; 45? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she +will be 46. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she living at home at that time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a boy or girl? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Boy. + +Mr. JENNER. His name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does he live now? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court. + +Mr. JENNER. St. Claude Court? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Myra; another girl. + +Mr. JENNER. Myra? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Myra is now married; is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What's her married name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Davis. + +Mr. JENNER. What's the name of her husband? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Eddie. + +Mr. JENNER. Edward? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he work here? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at Public Service. + +Mr. JENNER. Where do they live? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. They live on Cedar Avenue--713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie. + +Mr. JENNER. Metairie? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that part of New Orleans? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New +Orleans. It runs into it, I mean. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; and then your youngest? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Let me explain about her. + +Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's +child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both +died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Her name was--when she was single, Welbrock, but she +married, and now it's Kushler. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the +time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at that time, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her first name? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Cecelia. + +Mr. JENNER. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And they reside where? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly. + +Mr. JENNER. Rabbit Street in Gentilly? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a part of New Orleans? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it's the part out by the lake. + +Mr. JENNER. Which lake? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Lake Pontchartrain. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's +34 right now. + +Mr. JENNER. He's 34 now? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Myra will be how old? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. She made 32 in February. + +Mr. JENNER. And Cecelia? + +Mr. PETERMAN. She will be 30 this month--I mean, in May--May 15. + +Mr. JENNER. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending +elementary school, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they all attend the same school? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. They went to Washington, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Washington Elementary School? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is that? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. St. Claude and Alvar. + +Mr. JENNER. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary +school and high school at that time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Who is that? + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from +high school? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to +high school 3 weeks or thereabouts. + +Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately +when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to +herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years, +maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. +I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones +herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about +all. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did become acquainted with her? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes; I would say that. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had three children? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because +she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that +herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was +dead, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, P-I-C-K. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boy was---- + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Robert. + +Mr. JENNER. And the third? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was the third one? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about +within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra +and Cecelia; is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age. + +Mr. JENNER. Around Cecelia's age? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she +moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard +to recall all of that, to be exact. + +Mr. JENNER. That's all right. We want you to just give us the +information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that +time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I +really don't know to be exact on that. + +Mr. JENNER. And John? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going +to school. + +Mr. JENNER. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is +that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that +would be Robert? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington +Elementary at that time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I +am not positive. + +Mr. JENNER. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there, +Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved +before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3 +years. + +Mr. JENNER. About 2 years maybe? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know. + +Mr. JENNER. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the +time? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, she was. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard that as strange, did you? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much +with the neighbors. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that +Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced +her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was +dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she +moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead, +living, or what. She never mentioned him. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you say you moved into that house? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. In 1941. + +Mr. JENNER. You moved there in 1941? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that +time, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how she supported herself? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold +her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I +don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then +later she opened a little dry goods store. + +Mr. JENNER. A dry goods store? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I won't say a dry goods store--more like a grocery +store, I guess you would say--just a small place there in the front +room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. In her front room. + +Mr. JENNER. The front room of her house? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it was a little grocery store. + +Mr. JENNER. Would the local city ordinances permit that? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a +short time--not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I +know that was the only money she had coming in at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please; +what kind of person she was. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, like I said--I don't know how to explain it, but +she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob +either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a +person that--I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with +her, and she was a good mother to her children. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to +herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether +she did to the other neighbors, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard her conduct as strange? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of +person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that +neighborhood, I--there are some people living around there right now +that I couldn't tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go +out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way. + +Mr. JENNER. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that +right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept +them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her +business at all. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and +Robert? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having +a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do +today. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I mean children back in those days were not like +children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and +they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little +child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I +just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We +didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We +all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any other children in the +neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of +those boys, do you think? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small. +My older ones might remember them. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be Myra and Emile? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; Myra and Emile. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that +might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, +either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you +about it, or anything you might want to contribute? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell +you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after +she moved away we lost track of them. + +Mr. JENNER. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them +and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you +said, the man found you? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and +Marguerite took good care of him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with +your husband to talk to us. + +Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S. +attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, +to read over your deposition and to sign it. + +You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate +knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your +deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write +it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may +come down and read your deposition and sign it. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about +everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the +ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think you were pretty close. + +Mrs. PETERMAN. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday, +or the day before. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you +would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? +You don't want to read it over and sign it? + +Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; I waive it. + +Mr. JENNER. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs. +Peterman. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS + +The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the +Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., +by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first +being duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you +here today, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were born here? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have no family, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have +brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named +Marguerite Oswald? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with her? + +Mrs. EVANS. In about 1930. + +Mr. JENNER. About 1930? + +Mrs. EVANS. Something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I guess that's about right. + +Mr. JENNER. She is either 56 or 57 right now. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her +between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of cards? Bridge? + +Mrs. EVANS. We played bridge, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with her? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend--hers and mine, and +we used to play bridge together. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she married then? + +Mrs. EVANS. She was separated from her first husband. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did she live then, do you know? + +Mrs. EVANS. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment +on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know +much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived +right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on +North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular +time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she +was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was. + +Mr. JENNER. What's her sister's name? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I forget. + +Mr. JENNER. Murret? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Mrs. Murret. + +Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance continue for some years? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an +accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a +while, and she remarried--to Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You learned of that, did you? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; to Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see her from time to time in that interim? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, +but I might have run into her--I imagine I did, on the street, but I +lost contact with her, sort of, and then--it was either just before +Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so +many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I +think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I +think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think +she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember +all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long +time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though +if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if +she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was +after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would +have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became +friends again, as to what happened. + +I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start +seeing a good deal of her again until--let's see; she finally went to +work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that. +She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a +widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband in the meantime had died? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans. + +Mr. JENNER. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party. + +Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Murret? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am +Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party +or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number +of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and +canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh, +Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and +went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and +she said, "Yes." + +Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact. + +Mr. JENNER. When was this, 1959, 1960? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago, +because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact +that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV, +but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance +to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to +it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I +don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and +I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the +paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship," +and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her." + +Mr. JENNER. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was +born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of +him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage, +and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the +child, and he wanted her to destroy the child. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about +Marguerite Oswald, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was +just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his +boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and +went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life +Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived +right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert +in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them +how about him riding them home. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say to him? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting +insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie. + +Mr. JENNER. At whose house? + +Mrs. EVANS. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No, +let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or +divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John +Pic now? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, +and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her +because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was, +oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those +two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he +started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with +him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2 +years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby +right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar +somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from +other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of +it, because we got to be real good friends. + +She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very +happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this +terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called +the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man +was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one +on the way. + +Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her +home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in +this home--Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and +she bought a home over on--what's the name of that street back off of +St. Claude? + +Mr. JENNER. Bartholomew? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home. + +Mr. JENNER. The Bethlehem home? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly +with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was +with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her +sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she +had a woman taking care of the little boy. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did she live there, do you know? + +Mrs. EVANS. You mean on Bartholomew Street? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had +lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she +moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute--I might be getting those streets +confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left +her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home +was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in +that home and went to work. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your information that she immediately went to work +rather than try to live for a while without working? + +Mrs. EVANS. She might have lived for a month or two, or something, +without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she +had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said---- + +Mr. JENNER. What couple was that? + +Mrs. EVANS. I don't know what couple it was--somebody; she had put an +ad in the paper or something--some young couple. I don't know their +names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair, +that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little +Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts +on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now. + +So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and--now, +this is what she told me; she told me that she bought this little +double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room +there. + +Mr. JENNER. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, as I recall, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. What's a "double"? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door +here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes +some places, but we call them doubles. + +Mr. JENNER. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that. + +Mrs. EVANS. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with +her three children. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there +myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the +truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think, +still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other +place--that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on +Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was +between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there--the early +1940's, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time she was living where now? + +Mrs. EVANS. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was +with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She +would go down on Sundays to see her two boys. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain with her sister? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister, +but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I +don't know--I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing +her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, +something like that, you know, just go around a bit together. + +Mr. JENNER. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what? + +Mrs. EVANS. He was 3 or 4 years old then. + +Mr. JENNER. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't +he? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her +sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she +might have finally put him in there too. + +You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, +generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and +that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I +think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died. + +You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his +father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she +always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort +of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his +father, I think, just as any mother would. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to +1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with +your recollection? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on +Alvar? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. I was told it was in that subdivision. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall her selling that house? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with +her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working, +and I didn't play cards then, you see. + +She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards +with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only +through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned +what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her +all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it +was about a year before she went to Texas. It's hard to recall those +dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened. + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in +there? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; along in there. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.? + +Mrs. EVANS. Atlantic Avenue? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John +and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs. +Evans? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then she moved to Texas? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With her children, of course? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. What occurred about that time? + +Mrs. EVANS. She married again. + +Mr. JENNER. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's why. She married a very, very fine man. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what his name was? + +Mrs. EVANS. You know it; I will give it to you--Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl? + +Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all +right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans? + +Mrs. EVANS. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a +very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to +post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places. +That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't +drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them +then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she +moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. +Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her? + +Mrs. EVANS. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That was his second marriage, isn't that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for +many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he +did get a divorce and married Margie. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where he was from originally? + +Mrs. EVANS. Boston, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.? + +Mrs. EVANS. They did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit them in Dallas? + +Mrs. EVANS. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? + +Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend +of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with +this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was +living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I +visited her. + +Mr. JENNER. Her husband and her two children? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Including Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address +I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that +could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived +downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see--yes, +she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. + +Mr. JENNER. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert, +living at the home? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; they all lived together. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee, too? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to +travel, you say? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was +a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big +company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than +Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, +and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of +that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and +he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking +Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and +all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they +went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went +to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here, +and she took an apartment with me. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind, +let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say +you visited them once in Texas, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that +is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went +to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the +summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there, +even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the +time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three +be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay +in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but +that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the +time like that. + +Mr. JENNER. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had +the boys over at Covington? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the +summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this in 1946? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been, +but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years +for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it +happening. + +Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The +pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission +wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion. + +Mrs. EVANS. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would +take something to remember all of those details. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the boys during that period? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I +remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little +fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because +naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a +better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two +boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they +were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother +can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the +child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but +in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better +woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to +support her children. She tried to support them herself. + +Mr. JENNER. That was her own decision? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take +her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think +that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too +close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much. + +Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but +after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and +she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on +these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee +would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage +because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a +spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him +to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe +both of them--I don't remember, but I think they both went into the +Marines---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older +boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of +course he never did see his father. His father never did care to +see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit +supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to +come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or +Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working +at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came +back to New Orleans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one +time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and +at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said +she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she +answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened +Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a +Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were working at that time also? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant, +and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings +and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at +those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course +she went back to Texas. + +I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas +Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be +in Dallas for a show--some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I +went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with +Margie. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was Margie? + +Mrs. EVANS. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take +anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She +had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would +work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat +house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her +on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I +said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had +known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She +was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of +a bookworm, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a +loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay +too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I +mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself. + +Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't bring boys into the house? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and +he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, +or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler, +"Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs +talking to me or something, and when he would holler at her, she would +jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life +was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about +13 about that time, I think, along in there. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your +apartments? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when +they lived at my apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't +with Ekdahl any more when she came back here. + +Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would +like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they +returned from New York? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because +I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean, +he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that +goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think. +I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so +much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when +she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the +full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They +would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I +think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would +say they were really a happy family in those days. + +Mr. JENNER. They were a happy family? + +Mrs. EVANS. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely +knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that +their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what +they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her +children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at +all. She was very decent, a very fine woman. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't +think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have +been able to find out. + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their +children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was +never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and +made do the best she could. + +Mr. JENNER. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with +Margie then? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her while she was in New York? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal +card or something, but I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was +when she came back to New Orleans, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was +living in Texas, before she went to New York? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her +for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. +For a time she lived--what's the name of that little town? + +Mr. JENNER. Do you mean Benbrook? + +Mrs. EVANS. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again, +that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living +with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was +right with them all the time. + +Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her on all these trips with Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mrs. EVANS. As far as I know, she did, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did she have Lee with her all the time? + +Mrs. EVANS. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute. +If she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she +talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had +lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when her marriage to Ekdahl took place, Mrs. +Evans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was when she went to Texas, just about at that +time. + +Mr. JENNER. Around 1945, would that have been, in maybe 1944? + +Mrs. EVANS. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas, +Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they +struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. She said that he had had a heart attack, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was courting her during this time? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of +see how he was getting along here, is that correct? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down +here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned +about him. + +Mr. JENNER. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into +marriage then; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Ekdahl's sister approve of Marguerite? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she +went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look +after him. + +Mr. JENNER. Then Margie moved to Texas with Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you say you visited them over there, in Dallas; is that +right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And you think you might have heard from her at different +times when she was traveling with her husband? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right--you know, postal cards and such. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that +right? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you said you heard from her again? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the circumstances of that now, please? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's. +She was looking for an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean? + +Mrs. EVANS. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was +a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family. +She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept +house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference +between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But +anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I +could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper +than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have +any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and +her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so +she made out with that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what year that was? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so +I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early +spring, I think it was. + +Mr. JENNER. In the early spring? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been +in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I +can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was this apartment? + +Mrs. EVANS. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie +decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the +fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody +else, and I told her that. + +She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the +apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St. +Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked +at the house, and she thought that she would take it. + +Mr. JENNER. She had an automobile? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; she rode the bus out there. + +Mr. JENNER. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She +just had found a cheaper place to move to? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she +liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it. + +Mr. JENNER. Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite? + +Mrs. EVANS. Just her and Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. You did see Lee after they returned from New York? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6 +months. + +Mr. JENNER. Including Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months? + +Mrs. EVANS. In this apartment, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the No. 6 apartment? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27 +rooms or more. + +Mr. JENNER. It was just one big building; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they +took one of them, you see--one of the smaller apartments. I had had +one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little +apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was at 1454 St. Mary Street? + +Mrs. EVANS. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for +approximately 6 months, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was in 1954, you say? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get to see both of them frequently? + +Mrs. EVANS. Practically every day. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived +at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did +Lee Oswald look like? + +Mrs. EVANS. What did he look like? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you +then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was more spoiled. + +Mr. JENNER. More than before? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he +was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult. +Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not +yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very +trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't +any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New +York; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; after they came here from New York. + +Mr. JENNER. With his mother? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New +York and came to New Orleans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to +me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not +right from New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went +back to Texas from New York. + +Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far +back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I +just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently +was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that +they didn't get along--I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now, +that's my opinion. She never told me why. + +Mr. JENNER. That's just your surmise? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee +in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and +considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't +happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't +have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead +her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love +on him, it seemed like. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in +New York City? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. She never said anything to you that would have given you an +indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas, +or vice versa? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that +she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then +over to New Orleans--Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had +had in school in New York City? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a +man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted, +evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if +you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but +now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell +you that. + +Mr. JENNER. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to +you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York +City? + +Mrs. EVANS. None whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had been in New York City, of +course? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But she didn't say anything to you about it? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time Lee was about 15 years old; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. He was, somewhere around there--maybe 13 or 14. I don't +know exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between +the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother, +and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he +was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you +had seen him before that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he +was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this +time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he +was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was +when he was younger. + +The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he +demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be +downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the +head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something +to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing +me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running +upstairs to get something for him. + +Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he +would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records, +and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure +out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled +teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that +aren't that way. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a +father to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone, +it's a hard row--I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they +are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over +them like a man can. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean physically? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; physically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she register him in school here in New Orleans when +they came to live in your apartment? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know who registered him. That I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did go to school? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he went to school. + +Mr. JENNER. Which school was that? + +Mrs. EVANS. That was Beauregard, and I might say that she used her +sister's address so she could get him in that school. It's a good +school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time I believe +she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district. +That's the way I understand it anyway. I think there has been some +confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is +my understanding that that's why she used it. If she hadn't used her +sister's address, he couldn't have gone to Beauregard probably, I +mean, if she had moved to another district. So since she wanted him in +Beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it. + +Mr. JENNER. In order to get him in Beauregard, she used her sister's +address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that was a good school. I guess it still is, but she +wanted him in there. Otherwise he would have had to go to another +school. + +Mr. JENNER. That's Beauregard Junior High School; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; and, like I said, a good school; a very fine school. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee a good student, according to information you +received in that regard, if you did receive any such information? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I never saw his report cards, but I think he was a +pretty good student. I really couldn't tell you that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice during this period that you had this recent, +close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that +he was inclined to be by himself? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come +home from school, of course, a couple of hours before Margie, and he +would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to +entertain himself very well. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't go out and play with the other children? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, they had this change in 1955 from 1454 to 1452 St. +Mary. Was that in the same building? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a different apartment, then? + +Mrs. EVANS. I will tell you what happened there. There was this young +couple that wanted that apartment, and I still hear from them. She sold +them her furniture. They were the tenants after her, and she sold them +some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me +she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and +she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and +wanted her apartment back, but I told her that I had already rented her +apartment to this young couple. I said, "Margie, what happened to the +house you were going to get?" and she said, "I looked it over," and she +said, "It's too far from a grocery store. I have no way of getting my +groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient." + +I told her, "Well, I've already rented the apartment to this young +couple," and she said, "I want to keep my apartment," and I said, "But, +Margie, I have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them +some furniture," and she said, "Well, they can have the furniture," but +she said, "Just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that I +have got to keep it." + +Well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. I told her, +I said, "Margie, I just can't do that." To tell you the truth, the way +Lee was acting up and all--he was very noisy, I didn't particularly +want to do it. I knew, in the first place, that the girl simply +couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she +would be behind in her rent and everything. I think she was already +about a month in arrears on the rent, and I just figured it would be +better if I didn't give her the apartment back, so I told her that I +couldn't do it, because I had already rented it to this couple. I knew +that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a +matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling +all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard +feelings if I let it go on that way, so I decided that it would be +better to let it go the way it was going. It seemed to be the best way +out of it. I thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go +ahead and move now, rather than later, so I told her, I said, "Margie, +if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper," +and so, they did move next door. Now, I had told her that I was going +to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let +her down easy--you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went +ahead and moved next door for a while. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that 1452 St. Mary; this place next door? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; right next door. You see--I think I have skipped +something. I told her that I wanted to get the apartment that she had +been in fixed up, and that's how I talked her into taking the place +next door, but then she started complaining and saying I was charging +her too much rent for this place next door, and I wasn't getting the +apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime Lee had +gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his +mother, and it was getting a little unbearable. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" In what +respects was he more determined? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he +had a loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it +got to be quite disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that +was getting worse all the time; so I thought maybe it would be better +if I didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up +anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and +that's when she went to Exchange Alley. + +Mr. JENNER. O.K. That was in April of 1955; is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes, and I never saw her after that. + +Mr. JENNER. You never saw her again? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't see her at Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. She never came to visit you? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; she was angry about the apartment, because I made her +give it up. I mean I wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away. +I don't think she ever got over that. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't come to visit you any more at all? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't get in touch with you at all? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard from or heard about, +Margie or Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. The next thing I heard, they had moved back to Texas. They +had left town. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, her sister, Lillian, I saw her in Holmes or--let's +see, maybe it was at the Fontainbleau, at a card party we were +having--yes; I think that was it; she asked me if I had seen Margie, +and I said, "No; I haven't seen or heard from Margie," and that's when +she told me that she had heard Margie had moved back to Texas. I didn't +know that at all. I had heard from several people that they had seen +Margie downtown. She worked at three or four different places--you +know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once +in a while that I knew, and would say they had seen Margie downtown at +some store or other, but I didn't see her, and then the next thing I +knew she was supposed to be back in Texas, and then I ran into Lillian +again later and she told me--this was at the Fontainbleau. Now, I have +that straight. She told me then about the trouble Lee was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you run into Lillian at that time? + +Mrs. EVANS. At a benefit card party. + +Mr. JENNER. At the Fontainbleau? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did Lillian tell you about Lee on that occasion? + +Mrs. EVANS. She told me that Lee was in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the +Oswald family? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, that was when Lee came to town, and they took an +apartment up on Magazine Street. I can't remember that date now, but +Lee got here a day or two before his wife came in. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in May of 1963? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't remember the date, but it seems like it was +about the middle of May; maybe about May 16, or somewhere close to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that when he took the apartment at 4905 Magazine Street? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Was that May 16? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I think it was a little earlier than that, according to +our information. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, whatever date that was, that was the next time I saw +him. I don't know if it was April or May, or even March; I don't know +what date it was, but I got the apartment for him, and he moved in on +the day he rented it, or the next day, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. He moved in on the 10th; would that be about right; the day +after he rented the apartment? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about +right. He moved in the day after, I think it was. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 9th of May? + +Mrs. EVANS. I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May, +and then he moved in on the 10th. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that +apartment, Mrs. Evans. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to +work. He says he recognized him then, but I don't remember it that +way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted +an apartment, and did I have an apartment to rent, and I didn't have +anything in this building, but I told him about another building I was +fixing up, and I told him I might be able to find something for him, +and he told me he had a wife and child over in Texas, and that he was +going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment, +and that he had to find something right now. He said, "I want something +right away." + +When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and +I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, +don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to +see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what +are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought +you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron +Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, +"but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the +States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back +with him; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up +this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie, do you happen +to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one +little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This +is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little +apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and +she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much; he is just +getting a new job." + +Mr. JENNER. What's her name? + +Mrs. EVANS. Mrs. Maynard--Vickie Maynard. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know her husband's first name? + +Mrs. EVANS. Charles--Charlie Maynard. She only saw him for about 15 +minutes; she has no bearing on this. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. + +Mrs. EVANS. So she said, "Myrtle, bring him over, and I'll see you in +about 10 minutes," and I said, "We'll come up and see it," so we got +in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive. +It was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. They +did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for +the baby, but Lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. He +told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with +laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so I said, "Well, come on, +Lee; I don't know anybody that will take children," I said, "but we +will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." So +we rode in and out and all around Baronne and Napoleon and Louisiana +Avenue, and Carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets, +and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode +down Magazine Street, and I said, "You might as well get as close to +your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment." + +Mr. JENNER. Had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the +Reily Coffee Co.? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He told me that he had just got a job with the Reily +Coffee Co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. In fact, he +was going to phone her to come over that Saturday, I believe he said. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of job he had with Reily? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he just told me he was going to work for the Reily +Coffee Co., and that he had been staying at Lillian's, and that he was +anxious for his wife to come to New Orleans, and he said a friend was +going to drive her over here; so we were coming down Magazine Street, +and all of a sudden he said, "Oh, there's a sign," and I said, "Good," +so I pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign, +and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two +apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money. + +It was really the most for your money, I'd say, so I said, "Lee," I +said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford +too much," and I said, "This is the best you can do," and I said, "If +I were you, I would take it," and it had a living room that was a +tremendous room. + +Mr. JENNER. Larger than this room? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they +had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words, +and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long, +and it had a Page fence. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of fence was that? + +Mrs. EVANS. A Page fence--an iron fence, like they use around New +Orleans. You may call them storm fences, but down here they call them +Page fences. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you see through them? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street. +I mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. You can see +through them--these sort of diagonals, I guess you would call them. +Now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of +caretakers. She lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the +other side that they rented. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her name; the lady who lived next door? + +Mrs. EVANS. I don't know. I had her phone number and her name, and +I was going to call her--I did call her once that I remember, but, +nevertheless, I told Lee to give her the money for the gas and light, +in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned +on, because he wanted his wife to come for Saturday. I think this must +have been about Wednesday or Thursday that we were there. He said it +would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife, +who talked Russian, was going to bring her over to New Orleans, and +bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra +room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend +of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home, +and I think I went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and +I think I ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and +some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, I think, +and we talked, and I asked him, I said, "Well, how does it feel to be +back in New Orleans?" and he said, "I have wanted to move back to New +Orleans." He said, "New Orleans is my home," and he said, "I felt like +I just wanted to come back," and he said, "You know, I like the old +high ceilings and the trees and the French Quarter, and everything in +New Orleans," and he said, "You know, in Russia the buildings are brand +new," and we talked a little about Russia--not too much, but he did +tell me how men over in Russia can't rent an apartment if they are not +married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that +you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were +all modern, and they are given to you by the Government, but that you +can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more +about Russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. I +want to hear all about that. + +Mrs. EVANS. What he told me? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; what did he say about defecting to Russia; anything he +said about that? + +Mrs. EVANS. He said he didn't give up his American citizenship; that +that was ridiculous. He told me that he just wanted to see the country +over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen +in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the +housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any +rent, and they had a modern apartment, I think, about on the fourth +floor. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say it was only one room; that there was only one +room to this apartment? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said they had a living room, a bedroom, a dining +room. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that what he said? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had a nice place to live over there. + +Mr. JENNER. He said that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to +live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married. + +Mr. JENNER. When he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several +rooms--a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't know that, do you, Mrs. Evans? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, no; I don't know that. I have never been to Russia. All +I know is what he told me. + +Mr. JENNER. But do you remember him distinctly telling you that his +apartment had all of these rooms? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't remember that. He just said it was a modern +apartment. I remember him saying that. It could have been just one room. + +Mr. JENNER. It could have been one room? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I say, I just don't know. He said it was a +modern apartment, but other than that I don't know what else he said, I +mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether I +even asked him any more about it. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did use the word "apartment," is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had an apartment; I remember that very +plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But he didn't describe the apartment, as far as you can +recall? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I don't remember him doing that. + +Mr. JENNER. And he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted +to defect, but that he had failed? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he said he never did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had not attempted to defect? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said that he did not want to give up his American +citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. He said, "I am an +American," and he said, "I just went over there, just messing around." + +Mr. JENNER. Did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his +opinion of Russia and his reaction to the life he had in Russia? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad. +I guess he was just a young man in love with this Russian girl, but he +did say now that he had decided not to come back to the States until he +could bring her with him. He did say that, so from that conversation +I gathered that he evidently wanted to come back, but he had married +into a Russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could. + +Now, this Russian woman, I don't know if she was Russian born or not, +but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught +Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean Mrs. Paine? You are talking about Mrs. Paine now? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I didn't even remember her name. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the lady that brought Marina over to New Orleans +from Texas? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; the one that brought Marina and the baby to New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we will get into that in a minute, Mrs. Evans; she's +not a Russian woman, by the way. She's a girl from Columbus, Ohio, that +was a Quaker. + +Mrs. EVANS. Is that right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she did speak Russian, and she was the lady friend of +Marina that was going to bring Marina and the baby to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that's right; she does speak Russian? + +Mrs. EVANS. He told me that his wife didn't speak American. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she didn't speak English? + +Mrs. EVANS. Why she didn't? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't +learning the English language since she was living over here? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Lee as of that visit, +Mrs. Evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this +apartment hunting tour? What did you think of Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was, I would say, sort of arrogant. He seemed to +think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he +carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and +keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much--I noticed +all that. I asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother +was fine, and I asked him about his brothers, because his brothers +were both in Texas, and I believe one of them has a child or two, or +something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right. +We were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. You know +how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something--like +we were looking for apartment signs. We were getting out and looking, +and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about +things in general. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you used the expression "arrogant." What did you mean +by that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, you know--I don't know, just the way he talked, and +walked around, I guess. I don't know what gives you that feeling when +you are around somebody like that. He was just different. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think he considered himself superior to anybody +else, or to his fellow Americans, or anything like that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to +anybody else. He acted normal in that respect, I guess, but he talked +about Russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said, +"It's good to be back in the United States," and he said he would have +come back before he did if it had not been for this Russian girl that +he married. He said he had been in Texas 8 months then, and I said, +"Well, what made you come back to New Orleans?" and he said, "Well, you +know, this is my home, and I wanted to see my family." + +Mr. JENNER. The Oswald family? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his +family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or +unhappy in Russia? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he +would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had +to wait until he could bring her out of the country. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the service? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, but I found that +out. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his +objectives were in life now that he was back home? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any luggage with him? + +Mrs. EVANS. Not when he came to my house. He said he had been staying +at his aunt's. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about any of his old friends? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When he was a teenager, did he ever smoke? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to smoke? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or drink? + +Mrs. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was temperate with respect to smoking? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig +into things, and he liked music and books. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked to read, and he liked to listen to the radio. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of music drew his attention, classics? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, symphony--more of the highbrow stuff, I guess you +would say. I don't really remember because this was so many years ago, +and I didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would +come down to my apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Who would? + +Mrs. EVANS. His mother, but I know he liked to listen to his records a +lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. His mother +would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would +sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work, +she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the +way it was with Margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, I +guess you would call it. + +Then after they moved to Texas, like I said, I didn't hear from them +for quite awhile, and then Lee came back and came to the house, and +we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then +after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if I +could come up and meet Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. How long was this after he had moved into the apartment, +can you remember? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I'd say about a week or so, and anyway I thought it +would be nice to go up and meet Marina, and I told him we would try to +come up, because I would like to meet his wife, and he said, "Just come +anytime." He said she was anxious to meet me. Well, of course, I was +busy, so I didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking +at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen, +and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or +something, and it told about this scuffling over this Cuban thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there for a minute now. That's the +first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that Lee Oswald +was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I had no idea that he was mixed up in anything +like this, and I was shocked when I saw his face come on the screen +passing out these handbills in connection with this Cuban thing, so +I told my husband, "Well, they said he went to Russia to give up his +American citizenship; well, maybe he has." I said, "I am certainly not +going up there now," so I didn't go, and I don't know whether this was +before that or after that, but I called up the lady that had rented the +apartment to them--I had asked her for her phone number at the time, +and I told her at the time that I would try to send her some tenants, +so she did give me the number, so I called one time to see how the +Oswalds were getting along. Evidently this must have been after that. I +don't remember. So anyway I called and said---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would that have been Mrs. Garner? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that's right; Garner. I told her, I said, "This is +Myrtle Evans, who helped Lee Oswald get that apartment; how are the +Oswalds getting along," and she said, "You know, they are a queer kind +of people," and she said, "I just told him, 'After all, how do you +expect your wife and your child ever to speak the English language when +all you ever talk to them is in Russian'?" She said, "I told him, 'This +girl doesn't know a word of English, and I can't converse with her at +all'," and she said, "I asked him why he didn't talk to her in English +and let her learn some English so that she can talk to the people that +live here in this country, instead of always in Russian." + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say he said when she said that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, she said he didn't say anything. She said she tried +to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to +help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of English, so she +couldn't understand her anyway. She said that Lee had for some reason +always talked to her in Russian. She said she told him, "She will +never learn to speak English if you keep talking to her in Russian." +Now, that must have been prior to the time that I saw this deal on +television, and then the next thing I knew about Lee, it was all over +television, that he had killed the President, and the rest of it you +know. I didn't even know he was back in Texas. I thought he was still +living on Magazine Street and working at the Reily Coffee Co. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't know he was back in Texas? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never did go back when I saw this flash about +the Cuban situation on TV and Lee's picture all over the screen. I said +"If he is Russian, I don't want to get dragged into it. Maybe they will +think I had something to do with it." + +Mr. JENNER. So you just stayed away, is that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I didn't want to take a chance in getting +involved in anything like that. However, I will say this, I would have +loved to meet Marina. Maybe you can call it curiosity, or something, +but I did want to meet her. She seems to be such a lovely person. I +couldn't tell you where they lived in Texas. I never heard from them +any more after that. I would have liked to tell his mother how sorry I +felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but I just don't +know how to go about something like that now. I guess it's just one of +those things, but I sure do feel sorry for her. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: In the time that you knew Lee, did he pretty +much get his own way? Would you be able to say as to that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say he did; definitely. She would try to give +him everything he wanted--that she could, I mean, and do everything he +wanted her to do. I've seen that happen many times in the time that +I knew them and especially while they lived at my house. I mean, she +couldn't give him a lot of material things. She just didn't have much, +you know, but she would try to pacify him. That boy was so inclined +to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. I guess no +one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. They called him +a "loner", and I guess that's about the best description you can give +him. He was certainly a quiet type boy. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you observe with respect to his relations with +other children? Just how did he regard them? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, to be truthful with you, I never really saw him with +anyone except his mother practically. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you had a discussion with Marguerite +with respect to her leaving Lee with a couple? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes. Marguerite told me that she had this couple at +her home looking after Lee. Lee wasn't 3 at that time, you see, and so +he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began +telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home, +and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home +from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he +had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she +put them out that night. Now, who they were or what their names where, +I don't know, but she said that no one would take Lee, and she just +didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why +she got this couple in the first place. + +Mr. JENNER. Why wouldn't anybody take Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I mean, she couldn't put him in a home. + +Mr. JENNER. Because he was too young? + +Mrs. EVANS. Because he was too young, that's right. The older boys +could be put in a home--in fact, of course, they were, but Lee was not +yet 3 years old, and they have to be 3 before a home will take them. + +She didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes +into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and +everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back, +so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in +the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try +to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry +she ever did that. + +Mr. JENNER. You say Lee denied to you during your discussion with him +that he had ever tried to give up his American citizenship? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just +wanted to see the country, over in Russia, and see how they live and +how the country looks, and so he went into Russia and got a job there +and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and +he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some +way to get her out of the country. Actually he didn't seem to want to +talk too much about it, and I didn't try to pump him too much, but I +was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had +really happened. I do feel that he was sympathetic with the Communist +system of government, I mean, of the Russian system, but now I was only +with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and +his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't +even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and +I was surprised when I heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his brothers and his mother? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said the boys where in Texas, and that his mother +was fine, and that she was in Texas, and I think Robert, or one of +them, had a couple of children. I think that was Robert that had a +couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like +that, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the +United States, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to +Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward +Russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the United +States, and that the only reason he was in Russia working at all was +because he had married this Russian girl and wanted to get her out of +the country, or he would have been back sooner. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his having served in the Marines, +anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was +in the Marines? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his +aunt; I don't know, but I don't even remember if Lee mentioned that +fact in our discussion that day. I don't really remember that. I do +know that he always wanted to go in the Marines. + +Mr. JENNER. He always wanted to go into the Marines? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How do you know that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, because when he was going to Beauregard, he wanted to +be a marine. + +Mr. JENNER. He expressed that to you? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he always wanted to be a marine. He often said that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high +school, but he still lived there? + +Mrs. EVANS. You mean in my apartment? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. No; because they moved from my house, and I lost contact +with them. + +Mr. JENNER. But while they were living in your apartment, did he +actually express a desire to go into the Marines? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was always ambitious to be a marine, as far as I +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since +it wound up that they were both in the Marines? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; I think he wanted to be like his brothers; they +were both in the service, you know. I think John was a marine, but I +can't remember what branch of the service Robert was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, John was in the Coast Guard, I think. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, the Coast Guard, and so Robert must have been in the +marines. + +Mr. JENNER. That's right. + +Mrs. EVANS. As long as I have known Lee though, he has wanted to be in +the Marines. That's one of the things he said he always wanted to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that +respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly Lee? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; but Margie was satisfied that her children were going +into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to +college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that +they would go in the service after they got out of high school. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. EVANS. No; you mean the lady who brought Marina to New Orleans? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never even met his wife. I never went there +at all. He called me, like I said, and told me that his wife had come +to New Orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit +them and meet her, and I said, "Lee, I am going to try to come," and I +said, "You-all come to see us," and he said, "Come just any time." He +said Marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at +any time. + +Mr. JENNER. I have no further questions, but I would like to ask you +this general question, Mrs. Evans: + +Does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission +that I haven't asked you about, either because I neglected to do so or +because I haven't learned about it? If you can think of anything, I +will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or +occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the Oswalds. + +Mrs. EVANS. No; I can't think of anything else. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say his character, and I'm talking about Lee now, +would you say it was strong or weak, or what? For example, did he give +way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control? + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he could get angry with his mother. That was when he +was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he +wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she +would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do. +Of course, I don't know anything about his manhood, because I was only +in his company about 3 or 4 hours then. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual +with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with +him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? That's +what I'm getting at. + +Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type +of person. He was what I would call deep. He wasn't real friendly. To +like him, you would have to know him. I mean, even as a child, you +didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course I +didn't have too much contact with him. Most of my contact with with his +mother. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Evans, I appreciate very much your coming +in and giving me this information, and I know it will be helpful to the +Commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this +matter. + +Now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read +your deposition over and to sign it. It is also your privilege to waive +that. In other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you +want to. You can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead +and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to Washington, +but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it, +and you will be notified by the United States Attorney here when to +come in and read and sign it. + +As I have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other +than by the Commission when and if the Commission deems it necessary. + +What is your pleasure on that now, Mrs. Evans? Do you want to read and +sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that? + +Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I will waive it. I have just told what I know about it, +and that's all I can tell you. + +Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the +reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is +that right? + +Mrs. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you again, Mrs. Evans, for appearing here +voluntarily, and giving us this information. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JULIAN EVANS + +The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old +Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., +by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being +duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Julian Evans, husband of Myrtle Evans, is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition, +is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you live at 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Evans, you are a native-born American, is that correct, +sir? + +Mr. EVANS. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you born? + +Mr. EVANS. New York. + +Mr. JENNER. New York City? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in this area? + +Mr. EVANS. New Orleans? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. EVANS. Well, about 54 years. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Evans? + +Mr. EVANS. D. H. Holmes; salesman--major appliances. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived on Prytania, at that address? + +Mr. EVANS. Let's see--it's going on 15 years now. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are Mrs. Evans' second husband, is that right, sir? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you married before? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is +that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; the boy and his mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Marguerite and Lee? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; and there was another brother--two other brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. John Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were +across the lake, around Covington, La.--the three boys and Marguerite, +and Pic--no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was over there with them? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Mr. Ekdahl was from? + +Mr. EVANS. From Boston. That was the first time I ever saw any of the +boys. + +Mr. JENNER. They were then living over in Covington, and that was +during the summer, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that address was over there? + +Mr. EVANS. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a +place over there. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in 1946, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's about right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West +24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know the address. We didn't go to the house. + +Mr. JENNER. You went to a picnic, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; we went to a picnic over there. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children, +is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older +than she was, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was a lot older than Marguerite? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Mr. Ekdahl at that time? + +Mr. EVANS. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to +know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that, +and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him. + +Mr. JENNER. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr. +Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution +137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the +assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson, +appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take +testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as +in your case; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you +received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate +the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John +Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff +of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being +here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have +had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his +lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some +contact with the Oswalds, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a +day on this occasion that you began to tell me about? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You just visited over there on one occasion? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit at Covington on any other occasions? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years +old, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. I guess; he was pretty small. + +Mr. JENNER. And the other two boys were also with her, you say? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; they were all with her over there. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they in school at the time, do you know? + +Mr. EVANS. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I +believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were +on vacation over there. + +Mr. JENNER. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a +school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he +was attending school, is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I +don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an +out-of-town school, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say +it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were +attending a military school over in Mississippi? + +Mr. EVANS. Those two boys; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The two older boys? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I'm pretty sure that that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee was with his mother; he stayed with her? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; with his mother and Mr. Ekdahl--you mean in Covington +now? + +Mr. JENNER. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in +Covington, isn't that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and +personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they +were not on vacation--when they were moving from place to place in the +pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well, +except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything. + +Mr. JENNER. You noticed that? + +Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was quite apparent to you even though this was +vacation time when you saw them over in Covington? + +Mr. EVANS. I don't understand that. + +Mr. JENNER. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on +this picnic over in Covington that you told us about? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee +wanted his way, and that's what he wanted. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have +heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that yourself? + +Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes, I did; definitely I noticed it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite +or Ekdahl? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before +but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on +Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I +know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her +before. I just don't remember now. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a person was she? + +Mr. EVANS. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman--well +educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart +from this vacation, traveled a lot? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of his work? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Living in hotels? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right; they lived in hotels and also they took Lee +with them. + +Mr. JENNER. They took Lee with them? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; everywhere. + +Mr. JENNER. In traveling on his job? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I +believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other +places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with +Marguerite, did you not? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I +did. She knew her a long time before she was even married. + +Mr. JENNER. That's right; our information shows that. + +Mr. EVANS. She knew her when she lived down on Alvar Street. + +Mr. JENNER. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family, +is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the +background of the Oswald family? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; over the years we have discussed it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife +told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know +what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth. + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at +1454 St. Mary? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you +first come to know them. + +Mr. EVANS. Well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. From where did she come? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't +get along, or something. + +Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret, is that who you are talking about? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; her sister; she lives downtown. + +Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And she is Marguerite's sister? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they +couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and +she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might +rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment +right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, +or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, +but not for the same amount of money, or something like that--I don't +know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, +but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French +Quarter. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know where? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, it's some little short street down in the French +Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good +neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that be Exchange Alley? + +Mr. EVANS. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one +time on a week end across the lake with us. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mr. EVANS. We took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the +lake. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say across the lake, which lake is that? + +Mr. EVANS. Lake Pontchartrain. + +Mr. JENNER. And where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake? + +Mr. EVANS. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over +there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they +stock it themselves and they have some nice fish in there, and so +Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the +other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just +fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought +was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank +after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them +and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would +throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just +throw them down on the river--I mean on the bank by the pond and just +let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left +them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch +them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just +left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We +couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate +he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his +general attitude. + +Mr. JENNER. How old was he at that time? + +Mr. EVANS. He was just a young fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. About 13, 14 or 15 years old, would you say? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to +Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that. + +Mr. JENNER. He first went to Beauregard Junior High School, is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14, +I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would +answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. +That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking +for a place to stay. + +Mr. JENNER. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what +did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean, +did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant? + +Mr. EVANS. He was arrogant. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you remember some incident that would illustrate that +for us? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my +wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he +would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?" + +Mr. JENNER. He would be demanding, you mean? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right +now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed. + +Mr. JENNER. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he +was home, or anything like that? + +Mr. EVANS. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when +she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have +to go right now. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the +regular time? + +Mr. EVANS. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever +stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I +mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever associate with any of the children in the +neighborhood? + +Mr. EVANS. No; he didn't. He didn't associate with anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in +the apartment, or go out, or what? + +Mr. EVANS. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived +upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. +He always had a few books around, paper covered books. + +Mr. JENNER. Paperbacks? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; paperbacks. He had a lot of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he go to the public library and get books? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of +reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I +noticed by him being around the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered +about, or that you thought unusual or strange? + +Mr. EVANS. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times--always +thinking. He was hard to get to. + +Mr. JENNER. He was hard to get to? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever feel that you ever got to know Lee Oswald, Mr. +Evans. + +Mr. EVANS. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did. +I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was +nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand +him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He +never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of +him. + +Mr. JENNER. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might +have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he +wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't +appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with +him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him +to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be +by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any +attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that +way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed +themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at +all with the way he acted. + +Mr. JENNER. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but +when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't +be friendly; see if we care"; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was +given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was +that all about? Could you explain that? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from +upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and +so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that +she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, +that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very +noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have +him back in that apartment for that reason--because he was actually +disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really +tell when he was home. + +Mr. JENNER. You could? + +Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft +voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and +it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't +seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all +right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady, +and Mrs. Oswald about that time? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that +she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that +at all, and then she moved away. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee was a very impervious fellow? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn +voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He +would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He +had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over +other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about +or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald? + +Mr. EVANS. When he came back there to look for an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been last spring? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. May? + +Mr. EVANS. Around May. + +Mr. JENNER. May of 1963? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and +I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon, +but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and +she helped him get an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first +met him that day? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it +was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. A fishy handshake, was it? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's +the way he shook hands. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average +person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he +had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of +a mechanic. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your +house that day? + +Mr. EVANS. You mean in connection with this Cuban thing? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; anything about that? + +Mr. EVANS. No; that came after that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to +your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; she answered the door? + +Mr. JENNER. She answered the door? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he +could find one, or what? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and +they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your wife recognize him then? + +Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Immediately? + +Mr. EVANS. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed +that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was +about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was +the same Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You recognized him right away; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had +to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to +get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I +didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife +was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, +and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office. +Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, +and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the +Reily Coffee Co. + +Mr. JENNER. He had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.? + +Mr. EVANS. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed +to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over +from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my +wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the +apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your wife question him in your presence about his +alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had +renounced his American citizenship? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He +said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said +he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did +not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we +knew, we were watching television, and his picture came on there, as +big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I +think it was on Canal Street--no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway, +the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Could that have been "Fair Play for Cuba"? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when you saw this on the screen? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in +this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife +had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on +Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not +to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved +in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their +apartment on Magazine Street; is that right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And they never did visit you after that, either; is that +right? + +Mr. EVANS. That's right. They didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this +breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first +showed up--at least, before you left for work? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were +there, at least? + +Mr. EVANS. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I +had to get to the office. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee Oswald in any fits of temper, so to +speak? + +Mr. EVANS. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that, +but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother +and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like +that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though, +I could tell that he was very demanding of her. + +Mr. JENNER. Very demanding of his mother? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. What other impressions did you have of this boy? + +Mr. EVANS. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was +so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt +that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything +he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or +anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his +mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding +of his mother than he was, and he was her husband. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee came between her and Mr. +Ekdahl? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald. + +Mr. EVANS. Marguerite? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. EVANS. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; +intelligent, very soft spoken--a beautiful woman, with black hair +streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since +this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like +she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, +compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion +plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just +recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other +way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't +have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked +that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely +gray, and she really looks old. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, she's 57, I believe. + +Mr. EVANS. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks +about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw +this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when +it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you home when her picture came on television, along +with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest? + +Mr. EVANS. No; I was at the store at the time. It was on television +there. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do when you saw it? + +Mr. EVANS. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the +television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I +said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said, +"No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for +yourself." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would +lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence +on the person of anybody else? + +Mr. EVANS. No; he was a good talker. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a good talker? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his +age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted +for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his +expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud +voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother +or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty +awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She +would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that +she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a +kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about +changing then, at that early age. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other +children? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say so. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of this man in general when he +came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him? + +Mr. EVANS. In what way? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial +status? + +Mr. EVANS. You mean this boy? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or +the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you +learn about that? + +Mr. EVANS. Well I don't think he had any money. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any +outside source of money? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife +and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because +we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he +couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what +seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors +and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of +this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was +getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and +taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for +anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you saw no evidence of him having any money? + +Mr. EVANS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think it possible that he might have received any +substantial quantities from any other source? + +Mr. EVANS. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he +didn't have a coat on that I ever saw. + +Mr. JENNER. No coat? + +Mr. EVANS. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of +any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have +been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him. +I don't think his brothers helped him any. + +Mr. JENNER. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to +the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have +asked you about, or that I just didn't know about, and that you think +might be of assistance to us in this investigation? + +Mr. EVANS. No; not a thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, +and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your +deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that +right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be +forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your +preference in that regard? + +Mr. EVANS. I will waive that. + +Mr. JENNER. You will waive that privilege? + +Mr. EVANS. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have +already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just +wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in +his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at +least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him +that I could arrive at my own opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in +voluntarily and answering these questions. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PHILIP EUGENE VINSON + +The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. VINSON. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination +of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of +witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of +Congress No. 137. + +The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice +prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think +you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that +notice if you want to. + +I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to +waive it and go ahead. + +Mr. VINSON. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that +I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the +rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking +of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to +them as you wish. + +The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey +Oswald in the second grade? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While that may not seem to have too much relationship +to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission +is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that +area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the +second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some +relevance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would +like you to state your full name. + +Mr. VINSON. Philip Eugene Vinson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Vinson? + +Mr. VINSON. 4325 Baell Street, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth +newspaper, is that correct? + +Mr. VINSON. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspaper? + +Mr. VINSON. The Fort Worth Star Telegram. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by them? + +Mr. VINSON. Since July 15, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work have you been doing for them? + +Mr. VINSON. Reporter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general +reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing? + +Mr. VINSON. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in +covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth, +and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the +two reporters in this bureau at this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you are actually presently located or based in +Arlington; is that correct? + +Mr. VINSON. That's right. We have an office in Arlington. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to +work for the newspaper? + +Mr. VINSON. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What other jobs have you had? + +Mr. VINSON. When I started, I was given the routine work that most +beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just +general assignments on the city side or working through the city +editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks. + +During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they +were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4 +days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about +6 weeks. + +And then around the first of September I became a full-time police +reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police +reporter until about October the 1--excuse me, until about, I would +say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the +dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than +2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish +this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter +to come out to work in Arlington. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Vinson? + +Mr. VINSON. Twenty-three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. VINSON. July 6, 1940. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. VINSON. Childress, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? + +Mr. VINSON. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about +120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of +Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live there? + +Mr. VINSON. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception. +We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months, +and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was +this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to +live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find +us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now, +because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you and your mother finally moved to Fort Worth? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and +that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been +the second grade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the first grade in Childress? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to the second grade in what school? + +Mr. VINSON. Lily B. Clayton Elementary School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live in Fort Worth at that time? + +Mr. VINSON. 661 Seventh Avenue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers or sisters? + +Mr. VINSON. I have one brother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Older or younger? + +Mr. VINSON. Younger. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he? + +Mr. VINSON. Three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton +School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you first met him? + +Mr. VINSON. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own +words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the +second grade? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually +became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I +got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there +before I got there. + +In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year. + +The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we +would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in +games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and +allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little +groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs. + +We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several +key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they +were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being +the leaders. + +But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, +you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I +recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of +these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other +gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many kids were involved in this altogether? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, the boys in our class. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The boys in your second grade? + +Mr. VINSON. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may +be 15 or so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, now, you mean in the class? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. VINSON. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they +were--there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, +and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but +I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys. + +And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people +in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very +vague, but I do remember this. + +And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it +seemed that the other boys used to look up to his--let me start over. +They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky +and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of +little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big +and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what +I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a +year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later +on. + +And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to +be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a +member of his little group. + +And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a +tough-guy type, although not as a bully. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't a bully? + +Mr. VINSON. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I +remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he +had any tendencies like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody? + +Mr. VINSON. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out +on the schoolground. Really not out of anger. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys +who you have described as bullies? + +Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you a member of Oswald's gang? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of +thing, you know, and I don't know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these +out-of-school activities? + +Mr. VINSON. I don't remember anything about him out of school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I mean out of the classroom? + +Mr. VINSON. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, +I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the +teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I +shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she +had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember +that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember +Oswald ever having this happen to him. + +He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just +about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very--my +recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot +of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed +to be a quiet type of kid. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of +the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think +he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were +several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he +was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And +this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our +teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name? + +Mr. VINSON. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade +at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class +who had remembered him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what his name was? + +Mr. VINSON. Bill Barnes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Barnes? + +Mr. VINSON. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that +year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school +1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had +occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth. + +He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or +something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run +across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw +him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with him his recollection of Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I couldn't get hold of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just +didn't get an answer at the house or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with +Barnes about Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she +talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother +repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell +you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother +about Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, +but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he +remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask +him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of +Popeye, "I eat me spinach". + +That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I +recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would +say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I +took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or +something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him +as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the +gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort +of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough. + +But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and +possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a +speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what--was +one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any +particular difficulty getting along with the other boys? + +Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did +after--outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good +many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever +played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They +could have, but I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact +that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground? + +Mr. VINSON. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed +strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at +the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to +Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or +outside of the playground, at that time? + +Mr. VINSON. I knew of none, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Oswald lived? + +Mr. VINSON. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen +him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I +thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I +never knew anyone who did, or anything like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald had any brothers or sisters? + +Mr. VINSON. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade +at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort +Worth? + +Mr. VINSON. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do +recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school +with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one +of them. I just don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What school did you go to? What school after you left +Lily B. Clayton? + +Mr. VINSON. G. E. Talldy Elementary School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to high school from elementary school? + +Mr. VINSON. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth +grade, and then to junior high for 3 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What junior High. + +Mr. VINSON. Meadowbrook Junior High. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Fort Worth, also? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And from there you went to high school? + +Mr. VINSON. Polytechnic High School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Also in Fort Worth? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you gone to college? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. VINSON. I went to two colleges. I went to Arlington State College. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For how long? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went +there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and +the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one +semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960. + +Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and +in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring +of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there +that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The +spring of 1963--excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from that school? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in? + +Mr. VINSON. Journalism. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily +B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else? + +Mr. VINSON. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an +article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to +school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and +we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the +story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name, +and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class +pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I +could never find the teacher that--the day I was trying to do this and +I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in +the second grade. + +But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying +to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could +help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life +Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had +seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for +a short time, and he told me just a few things. + +I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what +elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although +he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He, being Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Garrett know of Oswald in the sixth grade? + +Was that Lily B. Clayton? + +Mr. VINSON. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson +who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it. +I see you have a copy there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears +in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and +sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it +was Ridglea West Elementary School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the +basis of the article? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember +offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is +accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the George Clark Elementary School? + +Mr. VINSON. No. That was another year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe Oswald did originally go to that school? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And +then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you talk to Garrett about? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember +offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known +Oswald in the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he +says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then +he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high +school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him, +that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him +if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said +that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and +remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something +about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the +idea of communism. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Oswald was in the Arlington High School? + +Mr. VINSON. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to +the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not +see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or +expelled or what the situation was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree +at this point? + +Mr. VINSON. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he +gave me this communism pitch." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high +school he was in? + +Mr. VINSON. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore +year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if +this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the +10th grade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you anything else? + +Mr. VINSON. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help +me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he +remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school +Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort +Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the +second grade? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of that with you? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't +know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in +effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't +told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned +something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good +grades. + +Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way +it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory +he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I +don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who +did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along +those lines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to +anybody who knew Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the +telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story. +Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star +Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort +Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did +talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about +Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, +and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who +had a picture that Life could borrow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find one? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and +at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came +down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at +the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the +other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life +Magazine which we mentioned above? + +Mr. VINSON. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the scene in this picture on page 68-B? + +Mr. VINSON. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or +in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade. +Maybe the third. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to +be near the Lily B. Clayton School? + +Mr. VINSON. No; it doesn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with +this article? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what +he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is +that correct? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I +understand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what +he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is +that correct? + +Mr. VINSON. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the +story that I wrote in the Star Telegram. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him this personally? + +Mr. VINSON. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather +than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just +quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story. +However, I noticed---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your +story in the Fort Worth Star? + +Mr. VINSON. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of +the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code, +I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year +olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the +only big change. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about +Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. Well, about what I knew of Oswald? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. VINSON. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked +to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what +I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I +had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And +this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of +the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get +some pictures, and he went to--went ahead and contacted them anyway +after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent +than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it +in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures, +and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the +people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who +at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team +football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come +out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what +Jackson told me and what I have read in the story. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Ruggieri? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with him? + +Mr. VINSON. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something +to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't +show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that +gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted +Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't +have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything +about that, did he? + +Mr. VINSON. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He +didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and +he had disappeared after a few days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying, +"I told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish +practice with a sprint, just like the others. + +"He gave me the same answer. I told him to hand in his cleats." + +The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made +to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, +saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he +didn't want to. + +Did you ever discuss this subject with Ruggieri? + +Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and +didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him +for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if +he knew him. + +I believe I didn't even ask him anything specifically about Oswald. + +I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to +try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did +he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for +Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't +remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it. + +But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to +speak with Jackson than he was with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever talked to you? + +Mr. VINSON. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Secret Service? + +Mr. VINSON. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last +night when he called and asked me to come over here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered +that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your +knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about +Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has +probably been brought to your attention, I don't know--I feel sure +it has--of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on +the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual +thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding +the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it +on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was +told about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the +Commission. + +Mr. VINSON. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I +am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make +any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the +rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without +a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says +in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently +shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in +March. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope +on it when he bought it? + +Mr. VINSON. I think this just was something that came out in my +discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation +just--somebody just made the observation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a +telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of +Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop? + +Mr. VINSON. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand +Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only +scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out +in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not as far as anybody else knows. + +Mr. VINSON. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I +think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the +scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in +the fall of '63. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There may well be something to that effect, but that +doesn't necessarily make it so. + +Mr. VINSON. I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to +anybody that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope +for Oswald? + +Mr. VINSON. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted +to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my +newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police +station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I +was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was +the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed +there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of +generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was +when it first came to my attention. + +Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the +reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald, +immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when +I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I +even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over +here that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about +your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him +that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this +point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on +such short notice. + +Mr. VINSON. I am happy to do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission appreciates your cooperation. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CONWAY + +The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the +testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. CONWAY. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal +staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren +Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress +of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances +leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President +John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon +B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the +Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The +Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the +Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as +the Warren Commission. + +The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and +to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose +name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had +some contact with a man by that name? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And we want to ask you a few questions about it. + +Mr. CONWAY. I will be glad to answer them. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a +native Texan, are you? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your age? + +Mr. CONWAY. I'm 57, will be 58 next month. + +Mr. JENNER. I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your business, occupation, or profession is what? + +Mr. CONWAY. Tool inspector for General Dynamics. + +Mr. JENNER. The General Dynamics Corp.? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Conway off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as +tool inspector for GD? + +Mr. CONWAY. I am sorry--will take me a moment to think. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. CONWAY. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there--in +1945--August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is +when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any connection with Leslie Welding Co., at any +time? + +Mr. CONWAY. With what? + +Mr. JENNER. With Leslie Welding Co.? [Spelling] L-e-s-l-i-e. + +Mr. CONWAY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of Tommy Bargas? + +Mr. CONWAY. I can't recall--I don't recall that name Tom Bargas--I +don't recall the name. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact +with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two +doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses. + +Mr. JENNER. Ewing? + +Mr. CONWAY. Ewing; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is a single-family frame dwelling? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and +dining room together. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. CONWAY. I'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there. + +Mr. JENNER. You say "they," who is that? + +Mr. CONWAY. His mother and his older brother, who is a half brother. + +Mr. JENNER. John Pic? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; his oldest brother, and then Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. So, there were three boys and a mother? + +Mr. CONWAY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a husband or father? + +Mr. CONWAY. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest +one on the place. + +Mr. JENNER. And about how old was he at that time? + +Mr. CONWAY. I believe he was around 8 or 9. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see, let's see--what year was that? + +Mr. CONWAY. Oh, it must have been--I'm not quite sure, but I moved +there in 1948, and I'm not sure--I moved there in September or October. + +Mr. JENNER. October of 1948? + +Mr. CONWAY. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of +the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there. + +Mr. JENNER. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you +are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old. + +Mr. CONWAY. Approximately--yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had children at that time? + +Mr. CONWAY. I had one daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Age? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed--I don't know +exactly when my daughter was born--1933, I believe, so that would be 15. + +Mr. JENNER. About 15 years old? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with +Lee who was then 9 years old? + +Mr. CONWAY. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John. +She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have +been slightly older than her, maybe 1-1/2 or 2 years, I'm not quite +sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Your daughter is now married? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her married name? + +Mr. CONWAY. Mrs. J. C. Bell (Spelling) B-e-l-l. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? + +Mr. CONWAY. She lives on Santa Fe, I think, it's 2904. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her telephone number? + +Mr. CONWAY. CI 4-2394, it would be--Circle. I'm almost sure that's +right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Conway living? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did the family live there? + +Mr. CONWAY. How long did they live there? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. CONWAY. I think almost 4 years--it was in the vicinity of 4 years. +It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was +approximately 4 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And did these boys come to your attention? + +Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of +mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand. +I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that so? + +Mr. CONWAY. I think so--John is a fine fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic, +you came to know the other boys, too? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; fairly well. + +Mr. JENNER. In and around the neighborhood? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the +time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him? + +Mr. CONWAY. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the +neighborhood was all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a +judgment as to his general disposition? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that and tell us something--some +incidents about it? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile +nature--he was mean when he was angry, just ornery--he was vicious +almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with +his two brothers, Robert and John? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; John was a very genuine character, a fine boy. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Robert? + +Mr. CONWAY. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't +very often get into much trouble. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing like Lee? + +Mr. CONWAY. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for +children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in +the neighborhood? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually +seeing him fight--the children didn't fight with him much, they got out +of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to +catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have +caught one of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4 +years or were they isolated incidences? + +Mr. CONWAY. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things +not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my +mind. I didn't see him very often--I have seen him try to fight with +his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they +would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try +to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that--I don't--it's +been a long time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he left alone a good deal? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; quite a lot. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe that circumstance, will you please? + +Mr. CONWAY. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately +because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get +home--I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where +is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like +that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out. +He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him +play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate +knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being +absolutely sure--I'm not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his +mother, worked? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of +where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually +worked nights--I usually worked nights. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this +4-year period as a rule? + +Mr. CONWAY. I believe it was. I'm not absolutely sure but I believe it +was. + +Mr. JENNER. At least off and on during the 4-year period you did work +nights? + +Mr. CONWAY. I'm almost sure that I did. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and +after school at least? + +Mr. CONWAY. It's funny, but I'm not so--not absolutely sure what year I +started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort +Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that +was the--was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before +they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second +shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible +since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift +almost all times they were there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when the family moved? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it +must have been in 1951 or 1952. + +Mr. JENNER. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that +would be 1952. + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the +family moved? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. Take this boy who you took a particular interest in--John +Pic. + +Mr. CONWAY. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to +me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful +cloudy on that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, have you exhausted your recollection on that? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't know--I remember talking to John--John, when +he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember +talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast +Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe +he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard +before his mother moved away. + +Mr. JENNER. You--could you refresh your recollection that he did leave +before the mother and Lee left? + +Mr. CONWAY. I believe I remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was in the Coast Guard and stationed in New York? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. New York City, Staten Island, as a matter of fact? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and +I believe--I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that +she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John +left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my +contact with them. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when +Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service? + +Mr. CONWAY. That, I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the +names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this +vicinity, whom you think might recall him. + +Mr. CONWAY. What year did you say he was born in? + +Mr. JENNER. 1939, October 18. + +Mr. CONWAY. 1939---- + +Mr. JENNER. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of +age--this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next +October. + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live +across the street. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me their full name and address and telephone number, +if you will? + +Mr. CONWAY. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was +fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by +house. The Masseys don't remember--I don't believe Barbara Anne does, +Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, +but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Barbara Anne living with her folks? + +Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; she's married now. I don't know what her last name +is. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs. +H. R. Massey. + +Mr. CONWAY. [Spelling] M-a-s-s-e-y. + +Mr. JENNER. And they live across the street from you? + +Mr. CONWAY. That's right--they live at 7425 Ewing. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I have your permission to talk with Mrs. Conway? + +Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I suggested that she come with me and save a trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, that would have been nice. + +Mr. CONWAY. I don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants +to do. + +Mr. JENNER. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if +she is free, tomorrow afternoon. + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has +been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her +memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call +out home sometime tonight? + +Mr. CONWAY. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. And we will leave it up to her? + +Mr. CONWAY. I'm sure she would be glad to do all she could. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you think of any others? + +Mr. CONWAY. The Turners, they just live--oh, Bill Bridges would be +the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the +neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was +older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old +as my daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I might talk with him on the telephone. + +Mr. CONWAY. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I +believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that Halliburton, Tex.? + +Mr. CONWAY. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home +office is. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen him around Fort Worth? + +Mr. CONWAY. Bill? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. CONWAY. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his +family and it's been quite a little while ago. + +Mr. JENNER. His first name is William and his last name is what? + +Mr. CONWAY. Bridges (spelling) B-r-i-d-g-e-s. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can +find him that way. + +Mr. CONWAY. He is with Halliburton, I remember the last time I talked +to him. + +Mr. JENNER. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was +attending elementary school, what elementary school is that? + +Mr. CONWAY. I'm sorry--I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. And the high school? + +Mr. CONWAY. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing +so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with +Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I knew Mrs. Oswald. She was in my house a few times. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of +Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the--to her care of these +boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period. + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I think she was--my impression was that she felt +burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards +her children. + +Mr. JENNER. Selfish? + +Mr. CONWAY. Selfish--yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that? + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared +to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't +care--they were embarrassed about their dress. + +Mr. JENNER. They were? + +Mr. CONWAY. Some of them were--John, especially and sometimes Robert, I +think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good +kids about it, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did John speak to you on that subject? + +Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his +mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about--hearsay, +you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me +that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should +buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why +she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of +the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, +"She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from this remark that you just made that the +boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school? + +Mr. CONWAY. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a +time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this +distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job. + +Mr. JENNER. And did Robert work also? + +Mr. CONWAY. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Lee? + +Mr. CONWAY. I don't think so. Robert would have if he could have gotten +a job. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he +industrious or not? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he was--you mean Robert? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I mean Lee. + +Was he industrious? + +Mr. CONWAY. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he +was too small. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an +emotional child? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush +and he would just storm at other children. + +Mr. JENNER. He was quick to anger? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes; quite quick. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive +child? + +Mr. CONWAY. I suppose so--I thought he was a very strange type of +person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average +in intelligence around that age--being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch +on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your middle initial, do you have one? + +Mr. CONWAY. P. (Spelling) P-i-e-r-c-e. + +Mr. JENNER. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding +Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie +Welding in Fort Worth? + +Mr. CONWAY. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram--that--there's more +than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand. +I never heard of Leslie Welding. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald worked for Leslie Welding at one time. + +Mr. CONWAY. He did? + +Mr. JENNER. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway +and that's why I started out with you on that. + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952, +from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald? + +Mr. CONWAY. Never saw him again. + +Mr. JENNER. Or John? + +Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I see John. + +Mr. JENNER. He comes to visit you occasionally? + +Mr. CONWAY. John never comes to Fort Worth without coming to see me. + +Mr. JENNER. And Robert? + +Mr. CONWAY. Robert never comes to see me. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert lives in Fort Worth. + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't ever see him at all. + +Mr. JENNER. He never comes back to pay you a visit? + +Mr. CONWAY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And Marguerite, have you seen her since they left? + +Mr. CONWAY. Since when---- + +Mr. JENNER. Since 1952? + +Mr. CONWAY. My wife has talked with her since then. Just briefly. + +Mr. JENNER. Since November 22d? + +Mr. CONWAY. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just +a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks. +She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I +saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times +on television and she looks just like she always did except a little +heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I +remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated +to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in +its work? + +Mr. CONWAY. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think +of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even +to go with what you have. + +When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he +had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John--you see, I taught Bill +and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee +picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee +would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would +lose a game. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard that, too? + +Mr. CONWAY. Yes, I have heard he would become angry. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your +deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to +waive that privilege. + +Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't care anything about reading it--I know what I +have said. + +Mr. JENNER. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your +deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET + +The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first +being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. +Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of +your deposition. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, +three documents. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the +legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission +to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our +President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson +appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive +Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the +taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive +those? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret--and don't feel +offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads +and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, +then it will be in the record. Do you understand that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch +head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed +to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. +Murret? + +Mrs. MURRET. I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents +that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the +facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, +1963, did you not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal +staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee +Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th +of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission +a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our +purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as +you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with +whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We +understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with +you, that you will be able to help us. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will if I can. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing +going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about +Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your +knowledge. + +Mrs. MURRET. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and +I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your +knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water. + +(Glass of water given to witness.) + +Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee +Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret? + +Mrs. MURRET. Claverie. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that? + +Mrs. MURRET. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E. + +Mrs. JENNER. And your first name is Lillian? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you born in New Orleans yourself? + +Mrs. MURRET. New Orleans; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were your brothers and sisters born here? + +Mrs. MURRET. They were. + +Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana--Cajuns. + +Mr. JENNER. Cajun and American? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not my grandparents. + +Mr. JENNER. Not your grandparents? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. On my father's side were from France, and my +grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a +question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it +is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my +first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is? + +Mrs. MURRET. What my age is? + +Mr. JENNER. How old are you? + +Mrs. MURRET. I will be 64 in May, May 17. + +Mr. JENNER. And how old is Marguerite? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think she should be 57. + +Mr. JENNER. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret. + +Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many +times she was married, to whom, in chronological order. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known +her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic. + +Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that P-I-C? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an +explanation for that, do you think? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because +the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward +John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know +which way it is. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took +place? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything +like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they +were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not +really too accurate as to years. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, as closely as you can come to it. + +Mrs. MURRET. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall +exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't +remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 +years, we'll say---- + +Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about +that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you +present? What do you know about that marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it +took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have +taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that +or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very +long time. + +Mr. JENNER. She had known him for some time before she married him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known him for some time before she married him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he do as a stevedore? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it +was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people. + +Mr. JENNER. He is alive? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. +I don't know what the initials stand for. + +Mr. JENNER. T. as in Thomas? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And B. as in Benny? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Smith? + +Mrs. MURRET. Smith, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. +The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, +saw him out there, but it was from a distance. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite +married Edward John Pic? + +Mrs. MURRET. I was already married. + +Mr. JENNER. You were already married then? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John +Pic, does he? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a +distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I +would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long +ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very +peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless +you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or +something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say +anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't +guess some of it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or +not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information +assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything +that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the +Commission in this investigation. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said +he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than +he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for +Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and +Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and +somebody else--lawyers. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Sere a lawyer? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers +together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer +too. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell his name? + +Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Sere? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. S-E-R-E. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Sere still alive? + +Mrs. MURRET. He is not. + +Mr. JENNER. He is dead? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about +Marguerite's first marriage. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she +told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said +Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, +and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and +rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and +then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that +Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at +that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that +rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they +took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and +so forth while she was working. + +Mr. JENNER. How old was she then? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, let's see--John must be about 31 years old now. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean her son John? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years +before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, +but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that +be about right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Twenty-six--I don't think she was that old; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, 31 from 57 is 26. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she +was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. +Let's see--well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, +you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh--well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 +years. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in +there. I didn't think she was 26 yet. + +Mr. JENNER. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 +years old; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's about right. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her formal education? + +Mrs. MURRET. She had a high school education. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say +about 2 years, and then they moved into another location. + +Mr. JENNER. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, +previous to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied +to her as to his income, did you not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City +Park area; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And she found when they went out there, or whatever +occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was +making; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And so she went back to work. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't +she? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, +but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park +area. That was when I was referring to. + +Mr. JENNER. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in +sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. +I have forgotten which section that was. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became +pregnant. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that when they had the house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that +they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it +was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section. + +Mr. JENNER. Carrollton? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, +and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was +pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support +her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact +that she was pregnant. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't want any children? + +Mrs. MURRET. He didn't want any children, that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 +years; would that be about right? + +Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close? + +Mrs. MURRET. We were very close. + +Mr. JENNER. Very close? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and +we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and +Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your +brothers and sisters. Your father died when? + +Mrs. MURRET. My father? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he died about 33 years ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Thirty-three years ago? + +Mrs. MURRET. About that; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when did your mother die? + +Mrs. MURRET. My mother died about 1911. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, she preceded your father? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; +is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 +years of age? + +Mrs. MURRET. I was married when my father died. I had three children +when my father died. One child was a baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is +yourself, your sisters, and your brothers? + +Mrs. MURRET. I have two brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. Two brothers? + +Mrs. MURRET. And we were four sisters. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, now give me the brothers' names. + +Mrs. MURRET. Their names are Charles and John. + +Mr. JENNER. Charles Claverie and John Claverie? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Are they alive? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 +months apart. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they teenagers? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the +other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted +tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that Charles or John? + +Mrs. MURRET. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB. + +Mr. JENNER. And he died at age 18? + +Mrs. MURRET. Around that; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had four sisters, you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. Including myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; including yourself. + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. One sister was Marguerite. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And yourself, Lillian. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who else? + +Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that pronounced Aminthe? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Aminthe. + +Mr. JENNER. That sounds French, is it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it's French. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, what's the other sister's name? + +Mrs. MURRET. Pearl. She died. + +Mr. JENNER. Pearl is dead? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is Aminthe living at the present time? + +Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe is living in Knoxville. + +Mr. JENNER. Knoxville, Tenn.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Tennessee, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it Charles was the oldest? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and I was next. + +Mr. JENNER. You were next? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; John was next. + +Mr. JENNER. John was next? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was +Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. John was third. + +Mrs. MURRET. John was third, that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Marguerite was fourth? + +Mrs. MURRET. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth. + +Mr. JENNER. How about Pearl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, let's see--that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth. + +Mr. JENNER. And Pearl was fifth? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was +sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just +so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, +Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How old was Pearl when she died? + +Mrs. MURRET. She died recently. She was about 54. + +Mr. JENNER. She was in her fifties? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she die of natural causes? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occupation of your father? + +Mrs. MURRET. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. +He worked for them approximately around 40 years. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken +out the first mule car, I think--when they had mule cars, before they +had the handbrakes on the cars. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal +education, beyond high school? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John +who died when he was 18? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did John finish high school? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Charles? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made +about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on +this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," +and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to +someone, and I never did get it back. + +Mr. JENNER. How unfortunate. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything +that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, +you know, back and forth. He was a gunner. + +Mr. JENNER. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser? + +Mrs. MURRET. On the transport. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a gunner on a transport? + +Mrs. MURRET. Transport; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is +alive; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Aminthe is alive too. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you complete high school? + +Mrs. MURRET. I did not. I didn't even go to high school. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you complete elementary school? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Pearl? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was +probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, +or did she? + +Mrs. MURRET. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but +she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then +she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and +my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some +cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I +being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We +were just trying to keep the family together more or less. + +You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, +and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got +old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would +help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy +family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much +happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My +father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his +family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right. + +Mr. JENNER. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of +this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family +and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I +don't want you to think I am just being curious. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out the family background so that we +can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey +Oswald. You understand? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life +I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very +happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but +we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you +say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her +attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her +personality. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a +very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at +all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her. + +Mr. JENNER. I think she's nice looking. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty +girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along +with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about +that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all +the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course +she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an +opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were +wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you and Marguerite get along now? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't +say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, +and how you got along then. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, when we were girls, we got along. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with +her, anything like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to +think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like +that. We did get along pretty well. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you +had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage +to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did +you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, +whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite +her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. +Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. +I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, +just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, +I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, +because there were things where we just didn't think alike. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was +wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. She thought you were wrong? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about +it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about +anything. She would just, you know, fly off. + +Mr. JENNER. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a +source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding +controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any +change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything +that you can recall of that nature? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or +whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just +go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from +her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she +probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to +New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold +anything in, you know what I mean, things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and +sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they did for a while. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for +your sister Aminthe; isn't that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville. + +Mr. JENNER. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans +area? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of +course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really +anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when +I first got married, she stayed with me then. + +Mr. JENNER. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed +together. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your husband and your father and your sister +Marguerite stayed together? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the business or occupation of your husband? + +Mrs. MURRET. What is his occupation? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, +but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other +words. + +Mr. JENNER. Different what? + +Mrs. MURRET. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he +doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. +He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have +work, he will work for someone else. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me what else you know about John Pic. + +Mrs. MURRET. What else? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, about Edward John Pic. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. +She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she +was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I +think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give +me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, +what was the reason or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; she left John. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she leave him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would +do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would +think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a +chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she +left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of +the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Before they were divorced? + +Mrs. MURRET. Before they were divorced; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that a little? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; if I can. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her +personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference +from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she +would act without thinking things over? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her +mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast +without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a +problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will +have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. +She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she +made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would +find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick +decisions. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl +as well as a mature lady? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything like that before she was +married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no. + +Mr. JENNER. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that +she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick +acting in her personality? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I would say so. + +Mr. JENNER. And you think she failed to think things over, that she +didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes +ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she +needed to reach a decision, is that it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over +before I did them, but she wouldn't. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that? + +Mrs. MURRET. You can call it that if you like. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you +really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I +don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a +tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want +you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality +characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City +Park section, in Carrollton. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that for me, please? + +Mrs. MURRET. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n. + +Mr. JENNER. Carrollton? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs +from yours. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my southern drawl. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a +distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not +a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation +which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. +I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's +as long as your arm. + +I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, +with a sharp enunciation. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was she working at that time? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; she was not working then. + +Mr. JENNER. How was she being supported? + +Mrs. MURRET. Eddie was supporting her. + +Mr. JENNER. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that +time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to +pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he +contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until +he was 18 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 +years old, she married Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a minute. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward +Pic embittered her? + +Mrs. MURRET. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She +seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she +show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting +along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from +him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. +We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I +would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner +and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he +was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said +she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come +over and stay a while, and he did. + +Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, +but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, +was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an +infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was +cruel, because I don't believe in that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she +refused to permit her former husband to see the child? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the +child or not. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she +wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, she wouldn't. + +Mr. JENNER. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have +desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't +know that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie +see the child; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't +think, not after he was a child. + +Mr. JENNER. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; I imagine she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of +Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was +unusual insofar as personality is concerned? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I can think of. + +Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all +I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was +just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for +a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, +and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him +a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she +got alimony for herself. + +Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize +and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a +lot wouldn't know how to do that. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course I gather from what you have said--as a matter +of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been +surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a +motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were necessarily poor people. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, +or $14 a month house rent--I forget which--and every day he would give +us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left +out of the $1, believe it or not. + +My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to +the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress +by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left +out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We +could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day? + +Mrs. MURRET. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and +spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't +have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We +had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In +the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, +were out. + +I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk +about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had +skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson +Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us +take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we +would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that +Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. +She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, +but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father +bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had +a lot of fun. + +We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our +bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children +have to do today. + +I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want +their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them +just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to +the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's +the thing to do. + +Mr. JENNER. What's the Blue Room? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it a place of entertainment? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling +and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and +all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all +the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to. + +They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people +around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to +relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like +that either. + +Mr. JENNER. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 +years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened +during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true +or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to +lie about anything. + +Mr. JENNER. You never have? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things +didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a +tendency to exaggerate or overstate something? + +Mrs. MURRET. I would say, when you put it that way--I would say if she +expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do +that, well, then that was the wrong thing. + +Mr. JENNER. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, +or show any emotional trait at all? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared +excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt +that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you +didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain +to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her +if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who +was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or +anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason +with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be +right all the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to +get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just +as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything +that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like +that. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe +it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no +control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times +things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see +eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You +couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, +then you were just wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it? + +Mrs. MURRET. She was very independent, in other words. She was very +independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't +think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how +much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was +actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of +times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one +little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would +have these little differences. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when +she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you +could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans +again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if +accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would +go ahead and give her help again. + +Mr. JENNER. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle +sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these +incidents would arise? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were +the older sister and really head of the family? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't +act that way? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her +marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something +my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always +believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did +that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I +had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing. + +Mr. JENNER. She questioned that? + +Mrs. MURRET. With me, yes; I mean, about the children. + +Mr. JENNER. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it +was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your +children? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember +this incident that happened if you want me to tell it. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell me about it. + +Mrs. MURRET. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was +just married October 5. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what year? + +Mrs. MURRET. This year, 1963--this past year. + +Mr. JENNER. Your son John? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; well, she was over at the house---- + +Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about now? + +Mrs. MURRET. Marguerite + +Mr. JENNER. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what +happened? + +Mrs. MURRET. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a +young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, +so Marguerite was over at the house at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking about your house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and +it was a rainy day, and John and this girl friend--we were all in +the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one +another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that +they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and +he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, +"Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each +other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note +telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back +to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big +bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they +were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe +John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I +said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall +that was. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that just this last fall, in October? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't +seen--this was quite a while previous to that--maybe 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that +time, or after. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected. + +Mrs. MURRET. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now. + +Mr. JENNER. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to +Russia right after that. + +Mrs. MURRET. I just can't remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on +my route. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector? + +Mrs. MURRET. For Metropolitan; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He collected insurance premiums? + +Mrs. MURRET. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that weekly or monthly, or what? + +Mrs. MURRET. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and +so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good +insurance man, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. He was an energetic man? + +Mrs. MURRET. He was. + +Mr. JENNER. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he +collected in my area. + +Mr. JENNER. He was already divorced from his wife? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he had any children of that marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and +Marguerite became acquainted? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry +her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic--I'm not too sure of that--and +Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally. + +Mr. JENNER. He had to leave the church? + +Mrs. MURRET. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the +Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He +could go to mass. + +Mr. JENNER. He happened to be Catholic? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you Catholic? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go +ahead. + +Mrs. MURRET. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and +Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of +religion. You are Catholic. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you always been Catholic? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father +was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the +Lutheran religion. + +Mr. JENNER. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that +we went to Sunday school. + +Mr. JENNER. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday +school, to the Lutheran church? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. +I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us +children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and +he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then. + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so +he continued that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. John Pic--rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About +the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything +she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then +after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section +then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing +section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite +a school, and it was a very nice place. + +Mr. JENNER. What's the name of the school? + +Mrs. MURRET. William T. Frantz, they call it. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Frantz? + +Mrs. MURRET. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is. + +Mr. JENNER. There were two children born of that marriage; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born +after his father died. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on +October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister +wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, +and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't +want to change his name. + +Mr. JENNER. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony +terminated, did it? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think so, but John still received his. + +Mr. JENNER. The child support continued? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started +to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There +was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in +there--he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young +woman was in the store---- + +Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are +you referring to John Pic? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was +working in the store--you see, Marguerite didn't have any children +then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young +woman said to John--he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute +little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward +Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear +it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the +colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that +happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, +and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her +mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, +and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked +him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By +any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had +married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that +he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled--an +aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read +everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. +My sister did tell me the story about that. + +Mr. JENNER. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. The Oswald marriage? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go +over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and +naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, +and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would +drop by, but we didn't visit too often. + +Mr. JENNER. They had a car and they had a home? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their +own home on Alvar Street? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and +during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, +and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, +and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the +right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it +seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come +out, he just toppled over. + +Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had +insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever +it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been +safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no +insurance on the house, or whatever it was. + +Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a +baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she +bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember +where, and then she sold that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. +When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did +your sister return to work? + +Mrs. MURRET. Not right away. + +Mr. JENNER. Not right away? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned +to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, +but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an +insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return +to work after a period of about 3 years? + +Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee +after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took +care of Lee when he was that age. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that. + +Mrs. MURRET. When Lee was a very small child? + +Mr. JENNER. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that +3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take +care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was--I don't know how that came +along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and +her husband--I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, +but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so +forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how +they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee +for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at +an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was +smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than +some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very +friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I +would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really +looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in +town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so +forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I +could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert +are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so--in other words, +I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, +from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, +grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and +I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's +why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his +nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's +kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have +everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived +in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would +still get out. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by a basement house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has +a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, +which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you +at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. She had gone back to work; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What sort of work did she do? + +Mrs. MURRET. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of +the stores in town. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a +home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. +I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so +she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so +forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put +them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who +have one parent. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be +back here at 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.) + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED + +The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained +the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and +did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, +and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did +you have him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married +Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time. + +Mr. JENNER. That was 1948; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little +before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really +didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient +myself. + +Mr. JENNER. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when +that was? + +Mrs. MURRET. When she married Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. JENNER. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home. + +Mrs. MURRET. That I had what? + +Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, when he was about 3 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been about 1942; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite +married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken +him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I +don't recall exactly how that was now. + +Mr. JENNER. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have +been 9 years old; isn't that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; +not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time. + +Mr. JENNER. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home +on that occasion? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere +in there? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old? + +Mrs. MURRET. About 3; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When he came with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How old was he when he left? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left +me. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he +was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem +orphanage? + +Mrs. MURRET. He did. He was out there for a while. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he come from your home to the orphanage? + +Mrs. MURRET. I really don't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he +was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, the incident could have been--I don't know if it was +that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any +more, or something like that; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have any clear recollection on that score? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about +5 years old? + +Mrs. MURRET. About; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When he left your home? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem +orphanage home with his two brothers, do you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the boys out there at any time? + +Mrs. MURRET. I visited out there with Marguerite. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was on what; a weekend? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, +and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an +old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. +The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. +In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles +on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that +neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed +to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out +and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang +for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or +anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think +they would keep those boys there free. + +Mr. JENNER. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. What was that? + +Mr. JENNER. She was working? + +Mrs. MURRET. She was working; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In some department store or something like that here in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the +time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have +been one of these Jean's--what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over +there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the +time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know +what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married +Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald--that is, the +father of Lee Harvey Oswald--before they were married? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so +I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew +him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she +knew him at that time or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her +husband, Edward John Pic, separated? + +Mrs. MURRET. I doubt it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the +separation and before the divorce? + +Mrs. MURRET. That must have been it. She must have known him during +that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you +will. What kind of man was he? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, +I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was energetic? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, +one of their top salesmen. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was an outgoing person, you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. He seemed to be. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you call him an extrovert? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I +can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but +he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be +getting along all right, so far as I could tell. + +Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, +did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children +myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. +Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we +didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; +in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we +didn't do much visiting. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz." + +Mr. JENNER. That's his nickname? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that D-u-t-z? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, +because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, +and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by +the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone +book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he still use that name? + +Mrs. MURRET. He does. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your telephone listed in that name? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His +uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always +knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but +that, but his family always called him Charles. + +Mr. JENNER. What business is he in? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. What is your husband's business again? + +Mrs. MURRET. He works as a clerk. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, +the father of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything +about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around +the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little +forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it +helps on the debits, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But not forward in any other respect? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean he was a gentleman? + +Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about his family? + +Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one +brother who was the godfather of Lee--little Lee Oswald, you know--and +I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Harvey? + +Mrs. MURRET. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know +about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now? + +Mrs. MURRET. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was +after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were +friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more +friendship. I don't know why. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still +existed, or was it afterward? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any +friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I +couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death +of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know +what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or were advised, that was never +repaired, was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your recollection of that event is what? + +Mrs. MURRET. What do you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about that incident? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, +other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one +time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, +and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he +was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic +about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here +and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead +and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I +guess, to marry Ed. + +Mr. JENNER. His name was Edward Ekdahl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your best recollection that you met him once +before the marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's all I saw him; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the +marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried +man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, +and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, +I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth. + +I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You +see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the +grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't +like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with +Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with +her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she +had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a military school? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with +beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for +these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that +responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as +far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation. + +Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she +is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I +understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until +he became of school age. + +During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could +have her other two boys with her on vacation. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is Covington? + +Mrs. MURRET. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, +over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and +they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's off in that direction? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed +there with the boys in the summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they visit you once in a while? + +Mrs. MURRET. With Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this +was during the summer that she stayed at Covington. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at +Covington? + +Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't +travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and +then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that +time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you +were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington +and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, +whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know. + +The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about +that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had +bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she +had spoke something about buying a duplex. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like--this is what +she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what +she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they +went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the +upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was +outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or +lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister +introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You +are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know." + +Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating +what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know +what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and +she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over +in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything +about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the +situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. +He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the +place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him +that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that +she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, +she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much +trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and +when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever +it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other +ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his +ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true +to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. +Ekdahl---- + +Mr. JENNER. Who? + +Mrs. MURRET. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I +don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway +they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and +she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the +boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he +hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she +opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the +living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and +tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his +coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so +she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, +which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on +business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of +course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and +that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten +a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big +salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, +but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get +the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone +to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her +that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a +heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the +cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to +the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the +hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I +don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then +she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very +much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the +end of the Ekdahl affair. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning +now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem +orphanage after he left the house; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed +there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at +my house, I would say, between 1-1/2 and 2 years, and then I couldn't +keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or +something. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of dissension? + +Mrs. MURRET. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to +take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with +the other two boys in the home then. + +Mr. JENNER. She was quick tempered, would you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what I mean; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She would flare up in a moment; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take +anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not +reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you +can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where +the other party never seems to be doing anything. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation +that was warranted, is that what you mean? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I +kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we +liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own +children, and this was her life. She made her own life. + +Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make +it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether +she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but +she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances. + +Mr. JENNER. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had met him only once, I believe you said? + +Mrs. MURRET. Once; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you at the wedding? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in +Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you advised that she was about to marry him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, +sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, +and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of +the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed +to be doing O.K., you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married +in Texas? + +Mrs. MURRET. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a +divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't +know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He +had a son. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were +they not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, +that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. +She went up to see them, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. In Boston? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You think his sister influenced her a lot? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as +his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you +get from what she said to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she just said that she thought things would be +different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she +would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and +having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under +the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything +about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she +told me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume +responsibility for any of the three children; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's what she said. + +Mr. JENNER. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and +Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy. + +Mr. JENNER. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their +way? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I +can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never +done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire +circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and +she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like +something happening or something you did or said, something like that. +Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know +the other side. I only know one side. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to +1941? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember +those dates exactly, that's been so long ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect +that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. +She bought this house on Bartholomew. + +Mr. JENNER. And she lived there about a year; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long she lived there. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. What street? + +Mr. JENNER. Broadway. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. 2136 Broadway? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about +the 10th of September 1942. + +Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in +Algiers? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over +there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were +over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to +Bethlehem down here in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution? + +Mrs. MURRET. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down +on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could +be. It was a very old place. + +Mr. JENNER. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am +afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married +him, which squares more with your recollection. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was +around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having +him at 8 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in +Texas was it that they moved to? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. They moved to Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your +recollection on that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean +after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't +recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I +really don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never knew she lived in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went +from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just +don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property +some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably +mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that, +and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired +listening to this merry-go-round? + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired. + +Mrs. MURRET. It would be too bad if you did. + +Mr. JENNER. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, +Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up +until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth. + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just +asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone +to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe +she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we +didn't correspond. + +Mr. JENNER. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was +living with Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys +around Christmas time, and that's about all. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or +snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. MURRET. Of Lee Harvey? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Ekdahl. + +Mrs. MURRET. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married. + +Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him +bring that in the morning when he comes in? + +Mrs. MURRET. The snapshot? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other +pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and +that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced +by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit +as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.) + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was +living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, +where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect +her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was +Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, +she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 +Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that +this was in the summer of 1946; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he? + +Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, +you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in +periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't +know. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that he was a research man for what +company? + +Mrs. MURRET. A sick man? + +Mr. JENNER. No; a research man. + +Mrs. MURRET. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his +salary was over $1,000 a month. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is a substantial amount of money; right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 +better than $1,000. + +Mr. JENNER. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. +If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very +substantial income; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial +income; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. We people? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, the Murret family. + +Mrs. MURRET. My family? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had +that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. +Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to +educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how +tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have +that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and +who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all +the time. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still +studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that +everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he +went to St. Louis U. + +Mr. JENNER. St. Louis? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a +scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for +about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept +after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went +to Loyola. + +Mr. JENNER. Loyola of Chicago? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; Loyola of New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. MURRET. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him +play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball +player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. +Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get +anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit. + +Mr. JENNER. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis +Cardinals farm teams; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball +and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the +boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he +was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some +kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co. + +Mr. JENNER. He works for the Swift Co. now? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. How nice. + +Mrs. MURRET. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with +the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his +travels in connection with his business? + +Mrs. MURRET. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your information, that she had her boys at +Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband +Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, +because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of +these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there +with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I +even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that during that summer vacation period? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she told you then that they were in Covington? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; she had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Covington very far away? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. How far away is it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was +getting along with her husband? + +Mrs. MURRET. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation +over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would +just stay there while he went to school. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in +Covington, La.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she do that? + +Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The +next I heard is when she left Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. When she left Ekdahl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and +she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put +them in military school in Mississippi; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At her own expense? + +Mrs. MURRET. So she said. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he at that time around 5 years old? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or maybe a little older? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in +his travels; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but +that she had to support him; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support +Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But it was your impression that he was previously married +and had a son; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad +heart? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very +bad heart, I believe she said. + +Mr. JENNER. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she +approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And they did marry? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. No children were born of that marriage? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was married to him very long. + +Mr. JENNER. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know about the date on that. + +Mr. JENNER. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was +not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went +on. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have already told us about that. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce. + +Mr. JENNER. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at +the time she married Ekdahl? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and +moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was +a very low-priced residence. + +Mr. JENNER. At 1010 Bartholomew? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else +about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying +property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but +things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way +you would like them to work out. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time? + +Mrs. MURRET. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she +was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was before the assassination? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She said then that she was selling insurance? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very +long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so +forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but +during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from +the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to +stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching +school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would +call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they +were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go +out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; +that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her +nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about +that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of +clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of +things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, +$5, $10, or whatever it was. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963? + +Mrs. MURRET. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the +Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out +of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a +hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, +that was over the telephone, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a telephone conversation you had with her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959. + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited +here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me +what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they +let him out of the service, right after that, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; in September of 1959. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in +this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and +then he said, "Well, this is not for me." + +Mr. JENNER. Who said that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had +saved over $1,000 or $1,400--I don't know the amount--but after he got +home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm +leaving." + +Mr. JENNER. Lee said that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; +so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she +thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a +runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he +might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, +but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at +the house. If he did, I didn't know it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he call you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was +waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the +house, you know, this might not have happened. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by +or called? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or +maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you would have tried, anyhow. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that +afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, +you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had +seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone +with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush +man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more +about Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After +the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could +have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. +Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and +things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have +happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, +then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, +and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All living in in their home in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way +she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the +house after school, and things like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the +house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run +home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said +she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the +house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to +have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't +get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it +safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, +but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the +habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got +like that; he was with himself so much. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to +time? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of +this period, didn't you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, +I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think +Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support +the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from +high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some +little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the +family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together +to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was +crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that +he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he +did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her +being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the +details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. +He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. The same as Lee Harvey? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. +Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told +me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between +Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know +anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and +she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and +she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here. + +Mr. JENNER. Hosiery? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go +to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to +school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and +they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she +had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he +told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could +with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must +have been on the way back--I didn't even know she had went to New York, +but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to +stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up +for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was +getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after +she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it +was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a +while. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get +back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl +died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after +Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went +to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as +to when she went to New York? + +Mrs. MURRET. 1952? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was living here--let's see---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New +York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of +1952? + +Mrs. MURRET. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I +might remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar +to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know that one. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an +address where they lived in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was +the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party +that bought it. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she +always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the +rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on +the deal. + +Mr. JENNER. She reported that to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's +the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she +spoke about. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. + +Mr. JENNER. Patricia Aarons? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. + +Mr. JENNER. Herman Conway? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Thomas W. Turner? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of him. + +Mr. JENNER. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was +supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; +is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. What? + +Mr. JENNER. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. She got some assistance from her sons, did she? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she +had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was +in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed +anything--John, but I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that about that time she was +becoming increasingly despondent with life? + +Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, +she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations. + +Mr. JENNER. She adjusted easily? + +Mrs. MURRET. She knew she had to do something about these things; that +she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things +that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was +hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support +three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them. + +Mr. JENNER. What makes you say that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I +mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or +not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had +been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run +out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I +don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because +her children didn't help her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, +she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little +friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about +that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides +to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells +you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect +for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard +time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little +demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper +respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I +would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's +nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them +that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, +and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that +she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, +but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was +so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell +me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like +that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, +but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think +that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she +was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or +called me--I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would +help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by +train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas? + +Mrs. MURRET. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee +did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he +said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to +anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to +strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by +himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while. + +Mr. JENNER. For how long? + +Mrs. MURRET. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her +feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we +tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get +out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just +rather stay in the house and read or something. + +Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though +I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She +was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and +things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out +before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the +back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks +and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other +children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, +so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go +right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically +pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to +stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, +but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his +way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do +about it. + +We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so +finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to +be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. +Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It +was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone +in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other +children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down +and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Because I saw the letter. + +Mr. JENNER. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw the letter before it was mailed? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at +your home, did he? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody +around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out +for him. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off +in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in your home at 757 French Street? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French +Street. + +Mr. JENNER. How was that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the +numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it +to the 700 block. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was +looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, +and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before +Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right +over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert +left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I would say about a week. + +Mr. JENNER. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Lee doing during that time? + +Mrs. MURRET. He was going to school. + +Mr. JENNER. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home +and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard +Junior High. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in January 1954? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth +or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New +Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street. + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that +from this lady who was a friend of hers. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that Myrtle Evans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania, +didn't she? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different +places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was +at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. +Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February +1955. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle +Evans was managing that apartment where she lived. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 +Exchange Place in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that 1954 or 1955? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the +right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first. + +Mr. JENNER. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring +of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a +very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family +home--Myrtle--and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments +for tenants. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did they stay at your house? + +Mrs. MURRET. At my house? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, +somewhere in there. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your +house into this place on Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know +which, to be truthful with you. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of +weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him +from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been +about 3 years older; isn't that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, +and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she +enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my +home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after +you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and +she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, +that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at +the school. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are +referring to now with relation to that school. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know +anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, +or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him +"Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into +the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't +know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they +sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he +could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get +a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, +like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end +of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of +course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of +that. He didn't say anything to me about that. + +Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there +were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, +"Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and +ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the +school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill +myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to +have started any of that at that time. + +Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low +standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children +went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad +bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights +and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, +so he got in several scrapes like that. + +Mr. JENNER. These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I +observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I +think. + +Mr. JENNER. Your children were all entered in school, were they? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did they study pretty hard? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well +in school, or what was your feeling along that line? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the +time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to +have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and +when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning +of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything +wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, +because I have had children of my own going to school and they always +done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school, +but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school. + +Mr. JENNER. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever +discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about +the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was +working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get +him out. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that +time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at +your place? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and +he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all +that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work +for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to +building, delivering messages and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in 1955, would that be about right? + +Mrs. MURRET. When he was here; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they +were living in Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he +liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a +Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always +cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he +would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to +rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the +greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in +City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go +up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would +have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him +more money so that he could keep his bike another hour. + +Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who +lives in Beaumont---- + +Mr. JENNER. Beaumont, Tex.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I +can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store +and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he +would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, +and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing +this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and +another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the +other children." So that was that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he wear this clothing to school? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing +this clothing for him? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very +independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about +something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and +that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so +independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need +somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that +independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because +you do need somebody, sometime you will." + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that a little of this independence might have +rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your +sister? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't +think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from +her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and +if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do +sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did +things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for +anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was +receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy +about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in +words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as +relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family. + +Mr. JENNER. In the Oswald family, do you mean? + +Mrs. MURRET. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were +the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took +care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she +gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my +own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John +was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John +Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along +with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to +do all I could to help her. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it +before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see his handwriting often? + +Mrs. MURRET. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School, +with his homework. + +Mr. JENNER. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540 +before you, do you recognize that handwriting? + +Mrs. MURRET. Wait till I get my glasses. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; take your time. + +Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like, +something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I +couldn't say for sure--I couldn't swear that that was his writing. + +Mr. JENNER. You couldn't swear that he wrote this? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I +knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for +his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't +write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. +You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he +don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret. +Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the +bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic +copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his +hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police, +or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he +stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, +but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when +he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he +was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to +lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the +customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that, +and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. After he defected to Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be +stationed over there, you can come over weekends." + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say he was going to be stationed there? + +Mrs. MURRET. At Keesler Field? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he was going to be. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he +never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never +heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is +that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all. +I didn't know he went until after he went. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you +that he was in Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had +this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that was before he defected; right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of +the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he +didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her +$10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans, +so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by +him from letter that he was in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. So she told you that; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. She told me; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in +the New Orleans papers? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth, +over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it. + +Mr. JENNER. There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. There might have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, at least it didn't come to your attention? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they had anything here about that at all, +but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; she came down here. + +Mr. JENNER. To New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And she told you all about it? + +Mrs. MURRET. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She +didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like +that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, +I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she +had brought him up in? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern +that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one +person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, +but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what +really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running +through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how +she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the +things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean +that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running +through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you +don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't +satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how +it was over there, I guess; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with him about it? + +Mrs. MURRET. After he came back? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once +in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he +was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working +there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; +no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't +even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to +the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he +didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well, +Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we +had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from +Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when +you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it +for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he +got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed +that with us as to why that was, and we never found out. + +Mr. JENNER. He never discussed that with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did +actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was +the type of boy who was too good an athlete. + +Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that +sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they +didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I +guess he just left. I don't know that though. + +Mr. JENNER. You think that's what happened to Lee, do you? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't +know though. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a competitive person? + +Mrs. MURRET. Was he what? + +Mr. JENNER. Was he competitive? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only +remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to +learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't +learning anything, and it was just a waste of time. + +I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of +time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because +you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him, +"You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of +yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's +one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about. +She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything. + +Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but +he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to +school, that he knew all the subjects. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your children discuss Lee in your presence? + +Mrs. MURRET. Did they discuss Lee? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. What did your children think of Lee? + +Mrs. MURRET. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted +like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I +didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen +to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the +same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, +because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a +lot, though. They have always loved him. + +Mr. JENNER. Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was that in the fall of 1956? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't +know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they +left. + +Mr. JENNER. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that +they were about to move to Texas? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came +in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to +stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said +New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so +I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In +fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had +a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that +we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already +packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the +way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your +machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the +place was locked up, and we never did get it back. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a portable electric sewing machine? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come +and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something +like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I +said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get +the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I +think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her +clothing or not; but she left. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was this she called you from, do you know? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Exchange? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go right over there to get the machine? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked +up. + +Mr. JENNER. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after +Robert got out of the service? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live +here and work and help support the family. + +Mr. JENNER. But he didn't like New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and +he wanted to move over there. + +Mr. JENNER. He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not +New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And so they moved to Texas? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and shortly after that--I forget when--but Robert +married, and I didn't even know he was married. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of boy was Robert? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away, +I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well +either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one +another as brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mrs. MURRET. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from +real small children, you would think that they would love one another +as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would +accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being +halfbrothers or stepbrothers. + +Mr. JENNER. Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that +your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic +name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him, +contributed to that feeling between the two boys? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she +married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I +don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, +that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father, +and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father +contribute to him." + +Mr. JENNER. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were +under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in +the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his +brother; isn't that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't +too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much +as he did Robert. That's just what I think. + +Mr. JENNER. How did John and Robert get along? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at +that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were +little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I +had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were +saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any +girls in this family." + +Mr. JENNER. Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; but they did say, "It had better not be a girl." + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the +Marines? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not until he came in that Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on +a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already touched on some information +regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you +about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because +we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the +telephone book over there and found her number. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your son-in-law's name? + +Mrs. MURRET. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said +that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I +think, or her brother--I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a +box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and +then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as +I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this +hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home. + +It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he +only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it +was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, +and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to +New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that +maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that +she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he contact you at all? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until +the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I +think, from Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. She called you and told you about that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he +didn't write you, did he? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from him; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was +going to be stationed at Keesler Field. + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in +the Marines? + +Mrs. MURRET. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up +and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you +think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big +Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom +House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might +like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in +New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think +he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't +know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the +induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother +would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited +and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to +join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you +will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign +for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told +her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around +for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign +an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that +he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office +with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office--he has expired since +then--and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with +him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him +go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then +the next step was that when he got over to the place--I don't know +whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his +suitcase--but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign +up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't +admit him on the affidavit? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he +said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of +the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there +and converse with him about different things in the service and so +forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything +like that, though. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't +seem to have worked much after school. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he +did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your boys work after school when they did go to school? + +Mrs. MURRET. My boys? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. My boys--let's see. They always went to school, and during +vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. That's what I mean. + +Mrs. MURRET. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900 +worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed +him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to +school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass +out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He +used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given +a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he +helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last +year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and +she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her +way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in +order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had +to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't +learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think +his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because +she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said +he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, +and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, +and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends +because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he +liked to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do? + +Mrs. MURRET. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to +do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out +on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those +things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk +around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you +very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not +even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's +what he liked. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I +asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so +forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But +I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl +all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I +think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in +the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't +stay in there too long, I don't think. + +Mr. JENNER. He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. There could be. + +Mr. JENNER. Or the Hotel Liberty? + +Mrs. MURRET. There might be; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite +had on Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there. + +Mr. JENNER. On Exchange Alley? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of +people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and +everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she +had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you +know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you +know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how +nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like +to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and +because of that reason rents are pretty high. + +Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom, +and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a +very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom, +and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the +apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and +everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the +block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in +that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live +that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she +told me. + +Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but +I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never +was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go +out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in +and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school +at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and +things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His +character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There +was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some +people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or +something like that, but of course you can't please everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him when he was in Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. One time I heard--it was a postcard, and I think it was +the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard, +and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write +to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted +to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and +I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did +write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene---- + +Mr. JENNER. That's your son Gene? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign +stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took +that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the +children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more. + +When I wrote to Lee--I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you +know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up +and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point. + +Mr. JENNER. You did write a card, but your children tore it up? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member +of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I +never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it. + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you +saw him, when next did you hear about him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had +defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and +then they went back to Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean Marguerite? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were over here after that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she live in New Orleans for a while then? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. She just came for a visit? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she stay with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. She stayed with me; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had discussions during that time about his going to +Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, not too much. + +Mr. JENNER. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your +impression? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried +to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to +her over the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean she tried to reach him by telephone? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was +the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. +He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but +that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her +after she left here. She said she was going to get lost. + +Mr. JENNER. She said that to you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more +until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee +said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not +thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said, +"Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he +said, "Yes." + +I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you +doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," +and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married, +and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he +said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here +trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said, +"Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because +if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements +maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said, +"Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out." + +Mr. JENNER. This was in May or April 1963; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Just about a year ago? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it +was. + +Mrs. MURRET. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week +after Easter. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be +coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly +dressed. + +Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed? + +Mrs. MURRET. He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of +pants. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have a suit coat on? + +Mrs. MURRET. A suit coat? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anybody other than you home? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He +could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the +bus station. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take +you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your +recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at +your house. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he +said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he +came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only +carrying just a little handbag, they call it. + +Mr. JENNER. What color was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Possibly it was brown. + +Mr. JENNER. Brown? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of material was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. What the handbag was made of? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. I think it was just cloth. + +Mr. JENNER. A cloth bag? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have it in just one hand? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. It wasn't too large, then? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; it was small. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness indicates about 14 inches. + +Mrs. MURRET. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put +their clothes in, something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of +that? + +Mrs. MURRET. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things +over at the bus station. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. MURRET. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? + +Mrs. MURRET. How do I know that? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station +and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he +did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until +he found an apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That evening? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In your automobile? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other +packages; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you home when they came back from the bus station? + +Mrs. MURRET. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, +if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the +garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see anything in the garage eventually? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary +cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in +anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it. + +Mr. JENNER. Over the duffelbag? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there? + +Mrs. MURRET. Quite a few, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. More than two duffelbags? + +Mrs. MURRET. I could be wrong, but I think there were more. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and +that there could have been more than two? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby +clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the +world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but +he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus +station though. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long packages with him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long +packages? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. + +Mr. JENNER. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes +that a person would pack things in? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long flat package with him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan +wrapping paper? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of +things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in +such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing +machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged +any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of +my business. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all? + +Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any like that; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and +hard? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There +were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do +know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled +out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these +leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything +like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear +in cold weather. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer +and sickle or anything like that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that +Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't +look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were +all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said +no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He +said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and +pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him. + +Mr. JENNER. You say he had no suit coat? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him +a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get them out? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put +up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, +he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and +the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to +describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American +housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any +other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper +so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so +every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for +a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he +wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper +anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for +supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down +about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then +he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the +house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we +were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything +about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I +don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one +time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know +them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." +He said, "You are the only one I know." + +Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday. +Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to +the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of +the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he +went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, +and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't +get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the +family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, +Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know +where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone +to letter. + +Mr. JENNER. To letter? + +Mrs. MURRET. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and +the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this +job. + +First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and +tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't +letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I +didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get +the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know +how to do that." + +So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and +he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds +in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right +Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the +wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always +carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a +certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always +take this map and mark the route out himself. + +So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the +brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was +dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave +him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was +a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever +went back to see her. + +So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, +and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the +Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and +he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, +and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!" + +Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he +said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, +but I will get along on it." + +I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do +anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to +go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or +whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I +don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know +everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. +I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was +smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along +these lines that he really believed he was that smart? + +Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't +think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't +think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I +guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We +didn't even know when he left this job. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, +did he read while he was home at night? + +Mrs. MURRET. Did he read? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books? + +Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave +early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to +fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want +anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always +eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He +would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, +and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while +and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same +pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley +Coffee Co. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his +life in Russia, and how he felt about it? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He +said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they +all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay +overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with +clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was +over there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did +work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but +then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work +there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in +Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the +equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were +not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. +We didn't talk about it too much. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley +Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said +you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only +talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever +tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked +him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He +never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say +was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all +he would say. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian +government? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things +were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch +a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that +he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife +and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department +loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and +he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer +in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he +worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much +money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they +didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on +the job. + +Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this +photographer? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either +Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job +all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a +third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he +came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he +would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that +time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he +called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and +everything, because they got here so quick. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man +speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over +in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he +didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got +the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and +look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very +first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," +and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me +about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was +going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would +like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine +wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I +wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in +mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, +"If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because +it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's +what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I +said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a +while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----" + +Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to +the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she +didn't recognize Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked +Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment +for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, +"Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and +I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said +to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am +Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have +recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she +told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she +knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of +course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card +party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that +time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee +that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, +"Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle +says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and +then she decided to help him find an apartment. + +She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices +are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will +just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got +in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on +a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired +about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was +very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly +wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a +bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and +kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to +Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee +said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't +like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get +this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take +it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, +after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming +in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia? + +Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the +impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to +come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with +a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that +Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle +had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite +satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over +there, he didn't like it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans +after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he +got that apartment possibly on a Thursday. + +Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he +moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he +moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and +Monday was the ninth. + +Mrs. MURRET. Of May? + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. +The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, +the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that +Saturday morning. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, +and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that +time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to +the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that? + +Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your +garage? + +Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he +had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought +that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the +garage? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when +he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all +anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the +apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he +loaded the car. + +Mr. JENNER. Your car? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He +had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that +first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, +and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something +else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No +woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your +husband? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee +up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it +was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after +they got everything out of the car, we just left. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing +them into the apartment? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, +and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage? + +Mrs. MURRET. Luggage? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because +he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just +had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of +socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the +garage; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the +garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two +suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather +than square? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches +long, or something like that. + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I +noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the +garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those +suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and +there were boxes, a bunch of stuff. + +Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know? + +Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three? + +Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't +know. + +Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown +butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, +when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting? + +Mrs. MURRET. My boys? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little +duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your +house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. +It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, +if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, +almost shot his hand off. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong +package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in +there? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look +like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock +looked like, and so forth? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina +and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about +that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the +apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back +later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and +buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, +don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that +in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the +house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and +they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two +children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready +to go out. + +Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter? + +Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an +appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I +forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and +the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the +kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime? + +Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee +said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready +to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't +know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's +the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with +him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her +car. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did +you see Mrs. Paine any more? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more. + +Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to +come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband +to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one +Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came +over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to +come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, +because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty +long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of +Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it +must be 50 blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their +house? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we +didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and +everything that belonged to the baby with them. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the +baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw +anyone before in her life. + +Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have +grandchildren? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this +baby? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she +didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things +in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends +with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look +at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee +decided that they would go out. + +I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my +daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to +go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside? + +Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks +from where I live. + +Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half? + +Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got +a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee +left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake. + +Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there? + +Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them. + +Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car. + +Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, +operating an automobile? + +Mrs. MURRET. Never. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an +automobile, though? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New +York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I +never knew him to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, +and they went crabbing; is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way +back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, +"Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like +a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come +from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. +They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him +that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending +$1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the +French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't +see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any +crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed +the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it +was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some +crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back +home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so +forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the +baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove +them home, and that was it. + +When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come +over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get +them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I +don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he +must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me. + +Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that? + +Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need +another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be +the only excuse he gave for losing a job. + +Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked +me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out +looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every +afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the +message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service. + +Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that State? + +Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead. + +Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from +Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of +those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State +employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, +so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't +think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after +that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom. + +Mr. JENNER. A what? + +Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went +down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, +and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to +drive. + +Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job. + +Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would +have to drive a truck. + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found +any other job after that here. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee +plant? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this +job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or +maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at +the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you +need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I +thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead +and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the +type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited +to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because +it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but +he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part +of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a +week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't +want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if +there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would +said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a +spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was +that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says +we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must +have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I +mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went +home with the spread after all. + +Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had +called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private +agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and +I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but +I wouldn't remember that now. + +Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going +on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went +to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14. + +Mr. JENNER. To visit your son? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time? + +Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in +between that time. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job? + +Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you +recall? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to +me about that. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for +a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children. + +Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she +adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they +were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't +seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came +over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had +come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock +that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and +not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would +understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted +to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the +recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to +pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, +and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, +but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain +things. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about +the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina +like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," +so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I +like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did +think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned +to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and +we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't +you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in +August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that +time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. +They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see +me, which I thought was very nice. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and +throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All +right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to +be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he +went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That +was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following +Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted +to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he +missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, +"Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there +are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be +all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, +and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children +of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce +was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee +called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, +and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, +the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring +some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." +She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each +time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I +said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" +and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she +asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She +was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man +told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because +she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your +cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole +him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans +a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her +the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El +Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I +am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't +know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he +was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like +that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and +everything." + +This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry +these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent +yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But +you can't carry signs like that in the business district." + +The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce +thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. +She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when +we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, +and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted +to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the +money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she +had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, +and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there." + +Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You +see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, +so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I +don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you +have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get +me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this +thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he +said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go +out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and +you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce +said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep +my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of +the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me +what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like +to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said +she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we +decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told +us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and +everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in +jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and +said that everything was all right, that Lee was out. + +Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret +came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe +it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He +went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee +in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected +with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee +said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you +show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, +I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find +yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so +forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe +it was. + +Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come +over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but +suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because +I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came +on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked +them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had +had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them +I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some +coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate +the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten +anything, because they ate up all the rolls. + +I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. +John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take +them home, and John brought them home. + +Mr. JENNER. In his car? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite +a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English +language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad +that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the +time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't +know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the +English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you +right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't +care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." +He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose +my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English +language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her. + +I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do +you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right +then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that +question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John +brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove +them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married +in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home +where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her +house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed +them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them +any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, +postcard, or otherwise? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, +two men came to the house from the FBI. + +Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few +days after Labor Day, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and +I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, +but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" +and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple +ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and +I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know +where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of +Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," +and then they told me who they were. + +Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me +that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a +lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the +same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to +Texas." + +Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. +I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over +something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. +Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was +going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't +say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or +anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through +here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane +professor. + +Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a +language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he +had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they +either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't +get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I +understand it. + +Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides? + +Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew +the professor and all that. + +Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow? + +Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over +there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. In Moscow? + +Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from +Lee Oswald and Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out? + +Mrs. MURRET. What's that? + +Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile. + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around +there? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son +Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and +he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had +graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there +for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany +and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to +law school. + +Mr. JENNER. At Loyola? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit. + +Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when +I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very +much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and +bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up +to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was +with us, and also her two children. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left +there about 2 o'clock, I think it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a +lecture or anything to the boys there at that school? + +Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret? + +Mrs. MURRET. What school is that? + +Mr. JENNER. At Mobile? + +Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study. + +Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina +over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so +many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences +in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over +there about his speaking, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia +is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't +think. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was. + +Mr. JENNER. By letter? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we +would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or +anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important +and he gets permission? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home. + +Mr. JENNER. But he may write you? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go +up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things +like that. We are allowed to do that. + +Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us. + +Mr. JENNER. Why is that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they +mind if you call him? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays +or something we can do it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over +there? + +Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just +what happened? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in +the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and +I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so +uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the +flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't +want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from +anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and +that night we were going to meet. + +Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband? + +Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce. + +Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And her two children? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill. + +Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all +the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. +Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real +nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself +all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very +attentive too to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Always? + +Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around +her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very +attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car +door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out +for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say +that for him. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along +very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. +They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and +some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang +out of doing things like that. + +Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we +could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment +before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She +said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at +Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told +him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your +presence? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this +stuff was stored? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it +might contain a rifle? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there. + +Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun +at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that +stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these +boots and this hat. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night? + +Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back +the next afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that +your understanding? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time +they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got +a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene +told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he +spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice +conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, +and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what +he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I +don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked +for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I +asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right." + +Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to +talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map +out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, +so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I +give talks all the time." + +Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, +"I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she +would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, +she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in +Russian, so I don't know what they were saying. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much." + +Mr. JENNER. Marina said that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; +we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would +become a Catholic." + +Mr. JENNER. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she +not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, +about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the +baby to be baptized. + +Mr. JENNER. Who didn't? + +Mrs. MURRET. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the +orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the +Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the +Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's +something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church. + +Mr. JENNER. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the +baby been baptized before that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know +which. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between +Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, +like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give +me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, +"Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he +really meant that the way it sounded. + +Mr. JENNER. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of +speech? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything +about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that Lee was arrogant? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it +depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in +the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike +him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be +arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all +depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man +who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that +he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought +he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried +himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the +time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's +mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he +couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay +any attention to that. + +Mr. JENNER. What was there about his mouth that you noticed +particularly? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different +from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like +he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the +way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time +he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him +look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused +to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, +and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or +something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid +that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have +anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will +be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. +But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot +of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard +School indicating--either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his +address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before +they changed the numbering on your street, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. +Murret? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700 +block, from Canal Boulevard---- + +Mr. JENNER. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that +Lee gave your home address as his address? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We +had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, +how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or +Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which +was your address? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from +New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and +that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't +have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't +given them my address and given some other address in another district, +he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to +Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she +said she would like to have him enrolled there. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York +with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his +conduct generally, as you recall it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, +I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the +afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper +and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He +never really did talk unless you said something to him. + +Mr. JENNER. The same old pattern, would you say? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to +talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others +just aren't. You run across that every day. + +Mr. JENNER. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or +a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some +activity of the Civil Air Patrol? + +Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about that other than my sister +Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and +that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have +a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were +living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange--whatever that is, at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Exchange Place? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and +tie on one occasion? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was +in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think +Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such +a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, +here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a +nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good +when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and +the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his +picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that +same shirt and tie on. + +Mr. JENNER. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had +given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to +John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt +sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good +that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, +"Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," +and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, +but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know +how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know +how to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe you said during the course of this discussion +that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate +with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his +left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he +did use his left hand as a child. I remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They eat with either hand, don't they? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have +started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they +grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who +never use their right hand, I don't think. + +Mr. JENNER. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy +though, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee write left handed? + +Mrs. MURRET. When? + +Mr. JENNER. After he reached, say, high school age? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You never noticed it one way or the other? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they +came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never noticed really. + +Mr. JENNER. Your boys are all right handed, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go +out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of +your boys, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it +belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and +the Cuban boy? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he called. + +Mr. JENNER. Who, Lee? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the +radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to +come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but +then we turned it on and did hear some of it. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard some of it? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political +views? + +Mrs. MURRET. Not in my home. + +Mr. JENNER. And not with you? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family. + +Mrs. JENNER. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity +was concerned, his coordination? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he +wasn't prepared to do anything in life. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an +automobile? Did your son talk to you about that? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what +John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too +long, and then they came back. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around. + +Mr. JENNER. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he +say anything either way as to that? + +Mrs. MURRET. You mean on that day? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, he couldn't drive? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear +with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, +and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, +Beaumont, Tex., is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has +an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, +and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and +who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that? + +Mrs. MURRET. Society of Jesus. + +Mr. JENNER. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And a fine student? + +Mrs. MURRET. He certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is unmarried? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit. + +Mr. JENNER. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that +right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. She's unmarried? + +Mrs. MURRET. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get +married. + +Mr. JENNER. She doesn't want to get married? + +Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles +didn't see Lee at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Charles is your dentist son? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have +told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce--they did, is that right? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And of course your husband? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. +Murret? + +Mrs. MURRET. Just that morning when we went there. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and +Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. MURRET. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or +Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy? + +Mrs. MURRET. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy +was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with +her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or +never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him. + +Mr. JENNER. Liked President Kennedy? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for +example? + +Mrs. MURRET. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I +read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes +there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of +Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said +she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given +her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see +nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to +smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My +boys don't smoke. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house +around here? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian +literature that you know of? + +Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina +and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but +that's about all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack +Ruby, or Rubenstein? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. No one else ever discussed him in your presence? + +Mrs. MURRET. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the +end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought +out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, +anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission +in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving +the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't +think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to +Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the +hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell +you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will +say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with +a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was +doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether +it was or not is something else, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald +during his lifetime? + +Mrs. MURRET. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what +baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he +could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way. + +Mr. JENNER. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits +of temper, that you thought were unusual? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things +that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think +he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so +quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless +you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. +Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always +treated her like a gentleman at our house. + +Mr. JENNER. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person? + +Mrs. MURRET. No; not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. +This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. +There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege +of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also +may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe +the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to +read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the +U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and +signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other? + +Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it. + +Mr. JENNER. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition +then? + +Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET + +The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. +Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to +take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of +Congress number 137. + +I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would +be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I +understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive +order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint +Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the +Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that +correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this +hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret +Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be +3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume +that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to +testify? + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is +to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee +Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that +you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any +knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New +Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963. + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those +questions, would you please state your full name for the record? + +Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Miss MURRET. 757 French. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret? + +Miss MURRET. New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years +in St. Louis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your +educational background? + +Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh +High School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton +Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, +the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you +have mentioned? + +Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational +courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.? + +Miss MURRET. Tulane. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Miss MURRET. Fortier? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? + +Miss MURRET. Fortier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there? + +Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid +the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't +pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and +he still owes me for December. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University +of New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one +across the river. He had two, one on this side, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities? + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the +one across the river is still operating. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one---- + +Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still +operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and +started teaching at Fortier? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents? + +Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation? + +Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under +the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or +how they operate, actually. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no +business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how +that works. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is---- + +Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she +not---- + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have +other brothers and sisters? + +Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died +when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her +mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was +very young, and I don't remember him at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl? + +Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when---- + +Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any +idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have? + +Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is +that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four +girls and two boys? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two---- + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and +both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all +dead. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name? + +Miss MURRET. Mancy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name? + +Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last +name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name? + +Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a +moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other +daughter because her husband is dead. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in---- + +Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee +she goes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes +over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does +she have? + +Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters? + +Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the +other one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name? + +Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls? + +Miss MURRET. Two boys. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now? + +Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but +I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he +lives. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one? + +Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four +children? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls? + +Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living? + +Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am +not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they +live? + +Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and +Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is +just a nickname, and then Jackie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know, +either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters +live in the same State, and one in the other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have? + +Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names? + +Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She is older? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in +the city of New Orleans? Is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what? + +Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name? + +Miss MURRET. O'Brien. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and +their names were what? + +Miss MURRET. One was John. + +Mr. LIEBELER. John? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the other? + +Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know? + +Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919, +during World War I. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them? + +Miss MURRET. No; there were none. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has +three sons? + +Miss MURRET. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite +Oswald over the years? + +Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on +the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come +back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved +back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days +or so---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when? + +Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she +was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were +on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her +occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she +moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New +Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived +on Exchange Alley? + +Miss MURRET. I don't really remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange +Alley? + +Miss MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had +been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on +Exchange Alley? + +Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard +from them when she was somewhere else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when +you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley? + +Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him +occasionally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would +meet Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I +don't think he was over very much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out +of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school +when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really +know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it +wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell +us? + +Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time +that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley? + +Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very +reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. +His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests +with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, +and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I +don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you +learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park? + +Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a +fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told +me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from +the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it +was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't +see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the +streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, +when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these +boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front +teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother. + +Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if +they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned +around, they hit him. It was just actually that--even though he was +in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't +think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own +business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my +mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that +it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't +have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him +because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which +was one incident. But he was extremely quiet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various +difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to +the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, +interested in that sort of thing? + +Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told +me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, +or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and +said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, +actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she +remembered those particular incidents. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this +after the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his +former---- + +Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in +common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long +time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before +also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me +that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, +and that they made fun of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students +from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station +and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when +he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent +and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might +expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that +opinion? + +Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago--but he was +very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but +he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and, +of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I +don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children +never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely +well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say +that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I +know, he never was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during +the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that +difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and +being well mannered? + +Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some +people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I +suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was +very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always +had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was +very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. +He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, +everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a +little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody +stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very +cute. + +But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about +him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was +saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, +well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of +those students, I should say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed +from his associates or fellow students at that time? + +Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because--well, I think he +wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it +could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to +play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this +is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether +my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very +appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't +do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean +he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but +I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I +guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I +mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these +former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been +involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what +station that program was on? + +Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and +photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking +the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person +my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so +everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the +other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all +that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students? + +Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he +said that he was friendly with Lee at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others? + +Miss MURRET. Any other people? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program? + +Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group +of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't +like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one +who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very +friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very +interested. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program +run by a particular reporter or commentator? + +Miss MURRET. A reporter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon? + +Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at +WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when +these people were interviewed by someone, presumably? + +Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I +believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed +information. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally? + +Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off +guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him +if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that +he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they +wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, +which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, +of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he +went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and +it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all +the comments by the neighbors. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald? + +Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed +there a few days when he came in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a +young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about +11 or 12 years old at that time? + +Miss MURRET. Just about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child +other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very +pretty child, and that he was adorable---- + +Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well, +he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling +child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems? + +Miss MURRET. No; he was darling. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all? + +Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if +he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. He was +just a very pleasant child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with +you at that time? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was +born? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that +time? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores, +and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was +Jean's Hosiery Shop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after +that? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if +that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or what? + +Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an +orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to +figure out whether he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not? + +Miss MURRET. No; I am not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went +back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your +recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright +young boy? Is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the +background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years +old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. +Ekdahl; is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl? + +Miss MURRET. I met him once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with +Mr. Ekdahl? + +Miss MURRET. My circumstances? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances? + +Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and +my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to +military school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married? + +Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got +married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do +know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two +boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I +remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if +I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in +uniform. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which +Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this +relationship? + +Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that +actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, +and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, +"Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was +quite hesitant about it, actually. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, +she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage? + +Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, +that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very +difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite +saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she +got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if +she got pregnant. + +So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she +did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he +would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, +he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was +true. And he definitely did not want any children. + +So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want +her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, +so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the +other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always +threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that +when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she +left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that +was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being +like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to +him or---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your +mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to +have any children? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met +Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or +afterwards? + +Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? + +Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father? + +Miss MURRET. I saw him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like? + +Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, +and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a +young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this +time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the +next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange +Alley? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would +have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year +old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you +have when you met him again? + +Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he +was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other +children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person? + +Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just +had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like +that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, +but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong +thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the +circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into +trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way +around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, +and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen +to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other +boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying +if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out +that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would +never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified +this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange +Alley, before she went to Texas? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her? + +Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and +feeling about Marguerite Oswald was? + +Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had +a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you +have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. +But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I +mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and +she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a +few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how +they--I mean they will slit one another's throats. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't +engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments +over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no---- + +Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald +came to New Orleans, isn't that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that? + +Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after +he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, +isn't that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to +New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of +course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he +could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that +he was married, and that he had a baby. + +So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family +she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, +so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on +Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, +and they moved into the place on Magazine Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there +during that period? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there? + +Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a +week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time? + +Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was +working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing +in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to +work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really +had was on religion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week? + +Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say? + +Miss MURRET. He just listened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say? + +Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist +because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary? + +Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and +so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off +because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he +said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he +didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then +he indicated that he had his own way? + +Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this +discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that +someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject +like that, and then not really respond to it? + +Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with +you over your---- + +Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations +that you might have had? + +Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk +with him, and that was the first day that he came--I believe it was. +After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all +day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to +know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his +relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him +about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what +descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close +to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or---- + +Miss MURRET. My mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him? + +Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think +most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I +believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother +would know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's? + +Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but +they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still +living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of +his father. And then he went to visit the grave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think +he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the +bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture +of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or---- + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved +over to the apartment on Magazine Street? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and +went to the other aunt? + +Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt? + +Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture? + +Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job? + +Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. +I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find +one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you---- + +Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a +job? + +Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she +thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my +mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet +Union, did you not? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia? + +Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few +photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he +said about the family, that people were very family conscious---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience +where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who +had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do +here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but +what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was +very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he +said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and +that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place? + +Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he +left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and +I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just +before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that +she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know +where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother +didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing +in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife +told me at that time---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time? + +Miss MURRET. In Japan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan? + +Miss MURRET. I taught school over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia? + +Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring +the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's +privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I +know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over +the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. John was? + +Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was +in Stars and Stripes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why +he went? + +Miss MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia +other than what you have already told us? + +Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of +this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought +that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in +bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want +to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, +anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person +because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression +on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, +that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, +and he worked in the factory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory? + +Miss MURRET. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? + +Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the +Soviet Union? + +Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was +going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend +the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on +the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language? + +Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone +to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten? + +Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of +training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had +gotten out, in the first place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean? + +Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he +a Russian officer? Anyway---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father---- + +Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, +so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he +had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just +to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in +the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think +it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the +Intelligence Service in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get +out. So, that I couldn't figure out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the +only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time +getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until +everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had +a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her +papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't +satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. +But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy +obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, +they would be trailing him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this? + +Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, +naturally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it? + +Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was +difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to +anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could +just forget about that because he might really have realized that he +made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try +to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking +that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back +here, you would do everything you could to help him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about +getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he +distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by +the two authorities? + +Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that +he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans +gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him +anytime. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had +given him the money? Did he tell you that? + +Miss MURRET. He told my mother that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he +had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more +details, or did your mother repeat them to you? + +Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his +citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and +that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he +couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation +with Lee about it before the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. About what? + +Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and +these difficulties? + +Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother +showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the +passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to +obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from +to return to the United States? + +Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could +get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, +and an uncle--I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he +was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then +that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't +really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you +don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the +Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really +realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a +purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the +Soviet Union? + +Miss MURRET. At first; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first---- + +Miss MURRET. The first reaction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first---- + +Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, +after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him? + +Miss MURRET. After he came out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he +came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time? + +Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here? + +Miss MURRET. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all? + +Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't +even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't +know--probably a year." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody +else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a +Russian agent? + +Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, +well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you +can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the +American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the +case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was +definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly +throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it +for the reasons you state? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get +out? + +Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of +the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with +which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or +have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question +that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you +dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or +the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that +they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It did not? + +Miss MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented +an apartment and moved out? Is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment? + +Miss MURRET. He told me about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally? + +Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I +think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and +said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina +would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high +ceilings. But he liked it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time? + +Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought +her---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name? + +Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time? + +Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced +herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and +that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had +referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was +very nice to meet her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved +out, or after he moved out? + +Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came +to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they +wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I +don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went +from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then? + +Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was +petrified---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about? + +Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language +barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people +there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or +probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled +child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever +came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and +I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in +the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came +into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. +Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to +meet Marina and Mrs. Paine? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina? + +Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said +anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; +is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go? + +Miss MURRET. It was exasperating. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English? + +Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but +still there is a lot she doesn't understand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient +in the English language? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her +at all in English? + +Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat +something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and +small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when +they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than +that, she---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine? + +Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had +been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a +professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman? + +Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they +telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for +an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going +that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had +one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. +Paine's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the---- + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman? + +Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember? + +Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret +Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what? + +Miss MURRET. Languages. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some +other language. He just teaches, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived? + +Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a +daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? + +Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time +magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those +ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in +the language, and you would see people who spoke that language. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of +Mrs. Paine in any way? + +Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking +people, and she spoke Russian herself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed +this with you about the professor? + +Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that +we could use to find out who he was, or who he is? + +Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, +if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think +that that would be too difficult to find. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on +Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment? + +Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him +home once or twice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment? + +Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it? + +Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never +did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was +arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon +and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked +them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, +they took the bus, and we always took them home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that? + +Miss MURRET. On Magazine? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes? + +Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a +half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't +know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July +until September. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time +you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in +September? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What +did you do? + +Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina +wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my +mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they +were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, +so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or +4 they came over in the bus. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not? + +Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New +Orleans during July or August of 1963? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition? + +Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my +house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that? + +Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, +of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with +Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and +I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, +and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina +told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, +"Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying +that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you +spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was +all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You +spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of +your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French +Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, +you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day? + +Miss MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that +happened on that day that was worthy of any note? + +Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was? + +Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only +an hour and a half. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina? + +Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't +really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you +know, word for word. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the +first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or---- + +Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, +I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't +remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted +to---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at +your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on +this expedition? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got +along with each other? + +Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he +first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the +assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running +back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some +statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You +don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications +they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to +love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very +well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, +he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in +and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just +seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that +my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that +probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to +be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute +couple. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as +peculiar or out of the ordinary? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties +of any kind while they were here? + +Miss MURRET. Only what I read. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to +smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that? + +Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't +want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I +couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean +she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did +eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, +"Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my +mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she +didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she +had smoked before that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment +or---- + +Miss MURRET. She didn't like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment? + +Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand---- + +Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said +that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In +fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low +ceilings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one +occasion, is that correct? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished? + +Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very +nice for the money, actually. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it? + +Miss MURRET. Sixty-five. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in? + +Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't +think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. +They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all +refinished, and the walls newly painted. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with +Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all? + +Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance +at all, never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy? + +Miss MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally? + +Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that +was before or if it was on that program, where he said something +complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to? + +Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was +interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the +assassination that they reran that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said +something complimentary about Kennedy on that? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of +President Kennedy? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the +Negro? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a +point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some +Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it +was just a rebellious kind of thing? + +Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars +were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother +telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, +defiantly--I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and +August of 1963, and where were you? + +Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and +Panama. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel? + +Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon? + +Miss MURRET. No; public transportation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the +assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either +planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to +Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any +connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or +subsequently? + +Miss MURRET. On this trip, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a +tourist operation? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you +learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail +during the summer? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that? + +Miss MURRET. My family. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you? + +Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba +pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get +him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and +so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not +supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they +decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, +and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if +it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see +her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left +and was distributing the pamphlets. + +So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come +and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two +children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take +care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she +said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't +there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down +to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my +mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the +station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to +tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, +not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is +not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to +get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if +they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and +he had him paroled. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who +is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just +a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was +just a personal favor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this +episode when you saw him on Labor Day? + +Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile? + +Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took +him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an +hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And +whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take +his car and go by himself. + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did? + +Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and +that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able +to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think +it was in the park. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up +Marina and take her back to Texas? + +Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 +minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee +Co. sometime during the summer? + +Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back +or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he +lose it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone. + +Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, +13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New +Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost +the job and was unemployed? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that +was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you +mentioned that you were in Japan? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did +you go, and what did you do? + +Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and +went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, +Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and +straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, +Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip? + +Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher? + +Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or---- + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification +problems, or don't they have that problem in those places? + +Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching +science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 +years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. At Juno. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In school? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in +connection with it? + +Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I +was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me +that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over +back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, +where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that +they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that +time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that +was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, +and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee +because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they +thought was a foreigner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Slightly! + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised? + +Miss MURRET. Of course. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it? + +Miss MURRET. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on +your knowledge of him and your association with him? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing +like that, or capable of it, either one? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since +this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive +that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, +have you not? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything? + +Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, +and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, +because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I +don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by +killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government +just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did +it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the +eyes of the world. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal +motive that he might have had? + +Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself? + +Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human +being? + +Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way +he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee +company? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know? + +Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job? + +Miss MURRET. He said it was all right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things +or not? + +Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really +didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he +said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked +him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't +any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he +had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But +he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was +somebody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity? + +Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely +intelligent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was? + +Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never +discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not +he knew what he was talking about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very +articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much? + +Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he +pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, +and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to +answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like +that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you +had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all? + +Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I +mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could +have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I +mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me +as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? + +Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain +type of person and hated by other types. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and +it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what +you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to +frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people +respond differently to different human beings, since each person is +different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing +many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not +liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, +but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you +would just tell us really what you think about this, and why. + +Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought +that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock +him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was +very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked +petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are +varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this +(assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said +that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college +graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain +manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought +they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a +degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent +than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never +really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was +intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this +other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I +guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances +only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he +didn't like them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem? + +Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a +different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a +rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange +Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you +know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or +anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't +have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like +that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained +himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when +he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading +this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he +was reading anything on Marxism or communism? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was +trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read +a novel, and that is how he was trained. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, +both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee +Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President? + +Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck +me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I +never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world +that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, +unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't +think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else +could ever get through to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when +you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with +the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and +had some difficulty out in the street? + +Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just +thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is +just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over +Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, +that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting +his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition +that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem +inconsistent to you? + +Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out +leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you +hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in +New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came +out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; +however---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know? + +Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and +they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was +because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, +well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not +against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I +mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, +and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on +television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he +was a Marxist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based +on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you +that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets? + +Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, +after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of +course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly +after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, +that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down +by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such +a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want +him to work for them, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the +assassination? + +Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the +assassination? + +Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, +so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical +one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back +on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down +at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I +don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then +being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the +other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the +kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia? + +Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured +even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such +a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, +do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so +horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that +big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, +I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an +individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist +lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just +preach the doctrine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to +whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very +much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you +believe? Do you believe he did it? + +Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been +so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person +supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had +already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more +than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any +kind when he was here in New Orleans? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle? + +Miss MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember +about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission +should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record. + +Miss MURRET. I don't know of any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times? + +Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you +were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there? + +Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, +and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother +was there, I mean, but he was talking to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only +time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with +you? + +Miss MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add +at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank +you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want +to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and +being as cooperative as you have been. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET + +The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the +Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., +by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly +sworn testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that +right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, +transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which +he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation +of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John +Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. +Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, +and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony +before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. +Did she receive those? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. You did read them? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of +the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of +making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their +lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, +with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking +into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if +possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, +1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that +connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you +know, if anything, in that regard. + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname? + +Mr. MURRET. Dutz. + +Mr. JENNER. Dutz? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that? + +Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and +it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just +stuck with me. + +Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting? + +Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a +career of it, or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you? + +Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63. + +Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans? + +Mr. MURRET. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family. + +Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the +way. + +Mr. MURRET. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five? + +Mr. MURRET. Five. + +Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that +right? + +Mr. MURRET. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in +Mobile, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging +over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and +to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, +and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a +priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb +Co., is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now. + +Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball +player, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls. + +Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed? + +Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, +did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball +when he was in high school; did you know that? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have. + +Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who +are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys +are right handed? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her. + +Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her? + +Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife. + +Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and +Marguerite's sister, now, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic? + +Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that +right? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very +often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore? + +Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, +but his firm is in that line of business. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding. + +Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in +that marriage? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And they separated? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we +will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is +that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did. + +Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see +them pretty often. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent +marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What business was he in? + +Mr. MURRET. The insurance business. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman? + +Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his +company. + +Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a +couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street? + +Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You do remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee +was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was +right after he died. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the +child? Did she go to work, or what? + +Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited +anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of +my business, so I didn't ask about that. + +Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, +after Mr. Oswald died? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I +think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name +of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life. + +Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about +a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by +Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in +him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay +attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I +mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from +his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the +opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the +apartment the way I understand it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right? + +Mr. MURRET. Not too well. + +Mr. JENNER. Not too well? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She +always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody +that disagreed with her, and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like +that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all +right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, +to that extent. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did they go? + +Mr. MURRET. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. To Texas? + +Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went. + +Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might +even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they +left. + +Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of +1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New +Orleans? Do you remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to +New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old? + +Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned +to New Orleans? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, +or do you know? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those +details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when +he returned? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the +second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain +way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time. + +Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New +Orleans, didn't they? + +Mr. MURRET. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that +they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans +on that occasion? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the +wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that +they were in New York; I remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that +they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley? + +Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, +and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I +don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there. + +Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, +right? + +Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost +contact with them. + +Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at +Exchange Alley, didn't they? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved +back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and +stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't +remember what month, but it was about that. + +Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for +an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would +like to stay with us until he found something. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the +kitchen. + +Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then? + +Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, +"Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of +course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, +I don't think. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is +that right? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Not a thing? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion? + +Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? +Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and +bring them to the house? + +Mr. MURRET. Did I help him? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with +any luggage, not that day. + +Mr. JENNER. The next day? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a +couple of days afterward. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of +days later, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus +station? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now? + +Mr. MURRET. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't +remember it? + +Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you +don't recall it at this time? + +Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at +that time? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or +something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that +sort of thing? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it? + +Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get +his luggage? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that. + +Mr. JENNER. And you drove? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove. + +Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge? + +Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there? + +Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them. + +Mr. JENNER. What else did he have? + +Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes? + +Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases? + +Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was +contained? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. +I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two +duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared +at your house after all those years? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but +he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for +his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the +number is concerned, I don't know it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and +have her come over? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and +I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would +walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her. + +Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine +arrived? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided +to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I +think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and +everything? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two +children with her. + +Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come +and visit you or your family at your home? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must +have come in the daytime. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over? + +Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the +baby, and Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. How did this come about? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee +was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up +there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him. + +Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made +over to Mobile? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over? + +Mr. MURRET. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you there? + +Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over +there? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you there? + +Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were +on the grounds. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. How about Marina? + +Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in. + +Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time? + +Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he +was making. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? + +Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the +trip or the motel or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. You paid it? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or +pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be +termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of +Castro, on the mantel there. + +Mr. JENNER. On the mantel? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested. + +Mr. JENNER. Last summer? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In August it was there? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio. + +Mr. JENNER. The radio? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going +to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the +radio instead. + +Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the +program? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an +automobile? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach +him to talk American to his little child. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that? + +Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why +don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he +didn't give me an answer to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left +Russia? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his +political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of +Russia? + +Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to +Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out +the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back +here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and +these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My +main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't +disrupt anything around there. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him? + +Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked +America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and +she said, "I like America." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked +you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its +investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this +matter? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your +deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter +transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What +do you prefer to do in that respect? + +Mr. MURRET. I will waive it. + +Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your +deposition? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all +the questions I have. + +Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get +to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for +anyone, especially for his mother. + +Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that +you had contact with him? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed +to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For +example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like +that. He wanted to do it all himself. + +Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right? + +Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go +ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him +after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET + +The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the +Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a +copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have +just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the +Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing +documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically +a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to +testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. +I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to +waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be +willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with +the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning +concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New +Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of +that, however, will you state your full name for the record. + +Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By whom? + +Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them? + +Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them? + +Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey +Oswald's cousin? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. +and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he +not, D-u-t-z? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education +here in the New Orleans school system? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. +Louis University and Loyola University. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree? + +Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in? + +Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer +of 1963? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first +time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, +the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that +you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that +period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did +have with him. Since I did live in the house and did---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street? + +Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with +him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular +neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this +particular occasion with his little bag and so forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was? + +Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, +you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am +not too sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or +can't you---- + +Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind +of confused now on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and +Oswald was there? + +Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is +when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was +here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery +to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But +there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him +other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, +but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different +environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and +that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that +they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received +better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you +gain an impression about that? + +Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I +couldn't, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first +place? + +Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of +my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he +just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or +anything like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, +other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort +of thing is concerned? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had +gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in? + +Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or +something, you know, similar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of +photography? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in +the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a +photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that +he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United +States? + +Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of +him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and +wanted to come back to the States. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his +experience in Russia? Is that correct? + +Mr. MURRET. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French +Street for about a week? Is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, +how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I +can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might +be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. +I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that +he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or +some place around there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding +a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, +even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding +a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came +back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of +impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the +clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald +apparently rented on Magazine Street? + +Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina +and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or +actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that +you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 +French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened +sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't +have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular +night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he +should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him +on getting a job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car? + +Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the +impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive +a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to +start the car and so forth, what to do on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the +car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he +did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I +guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the +city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where +they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking +places for the golfers, and I had brought him here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street +over to the parking lot in the park? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to +back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big +car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell +him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into +the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is +concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is +my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let +him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French +Street? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or +anything. Nobody was in the park. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. +Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it +was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is +nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could +have handled it, you know, the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car? + +Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself +without your permission? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was +here in New Orleans, as far as you know? + +Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit +priest---- + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee +Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along? + +Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a +sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know? + +Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and +Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, +since that time? + +Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all? + +Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was +at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And +I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested +in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the +Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what +the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the +food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking +him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the +questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with +my brother, you know, just asking him about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that? + +Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? + +Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene, +indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, +there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought? + +Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit +priest? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when +he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for +lunch---- + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French +Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald +during the summer of 1963? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house +some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her? + +Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and +I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually +couldn't speak to her, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could +speak English? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that +she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination---- + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her +use of the English language, did you not? + +Mr. MURRET. Definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the +summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the +assassination? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina +together? + +Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only +time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with +each other? + +Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty +well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget +what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was +in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was +Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like +that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of +sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, +because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, +but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I +didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in +their relationship, as far as you could tell? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics---- + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all? + +Mr. MURRET. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character +from your observations and experience with him in 1963? + +Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing +anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I +say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just +didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other +words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and +get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. +Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He +wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he +just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, +he wouldn't ask for anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of +fellow? + +Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you +form an opinion about his intelligence? + +Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright +in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the +right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved +particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him. +He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and +his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, +with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate? + +Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual +wouldn't use in conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans +Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection +with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair +Play for Cuba Committee literature? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the time? + +Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't +recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail? + +Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out +there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not? + +Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after +the radio debate? + +Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair +Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in +connection with those events? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the +events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct? + +Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? + +Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name? + +Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live? + +Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been +involved in getting Oswald out of jail? + +Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail +he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the +time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you +know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in +there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she +heard what he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he +did? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy? + +Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a +small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to +hold any conversation with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he +was when he was a kid? + +Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he +was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What? + +Mr. MURRET. Harmful. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful? + +Mr. MURRET. Harmless. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret? + +Mr. MURRET. I am 29. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that +right? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you +say, or how much contact did you have with Robert? + +Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't +here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth +that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your +attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, +that you can remember, was there? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about +your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of +that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything +of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked +about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't +mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would +like to have you tell us. + +Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so +happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, +for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, +you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had +located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect +is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in +contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the +next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, +right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it +was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this +employment agency was looking for him? + +Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was +looking for. Other than that, that is all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, +different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he +was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such +that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether +they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes? + +Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it +was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went +looking for a job? + +Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only +suit he had that I know of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out +at the place on French Street? + +Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the +handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag? + +Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft---- + +Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was? + +Mr. MURRET. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember +or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this +point. + +Mr. MURRET. O.K. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR. + +The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., +after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir? + +Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission, +Mr. Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate +Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of +the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts +and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of +November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John +Fitzgerald Kennedy. + +Mr. PIC. I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. +11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the +Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That +Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, +upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances +surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the +subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack +Ruby. + +The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our +duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission +itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody +who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in +any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was +under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew +where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, +to my surprise, that you were very much alive? + +Mr. PIC. I certainly am. + +Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the +street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he +recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted +to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the +Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the +Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also +received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution +137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the +assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. +11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its +powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which +we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of +deposition, as we are doing here today. + +Mr. PIC. May I say something? + +Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything. + +Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, +that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was +still alive. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance. + +Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told +him I didn't; and that was all. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or +misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the +reports of his death were very much exaggerated? + +So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured +that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret +Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the +country, are you not? + +Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or +rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that +right, Mr. Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that took place when? + +Mr. PIC. 1929. + +Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people? + +Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907. + +Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate. + +Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Three years? + +Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually +terminated? + +Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you +separated? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple +of years; is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married +to Marguerite? + +Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk. + +Mr. JENNER. In what company? + +Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company? + +Mr. PIC. I am, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has +changed; is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you do now? + +Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department +of the company. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr. +Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company. + +Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is +that right? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the +company. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who +is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that +right? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your +own words what difficulty you had with her. + +Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it +come out to four. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence? + +Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not. + +Mr. JENNER. On either side? + +Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is +that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time? + +Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, +you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing +off; which we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be +able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a +nice girl at that time? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say +anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We +just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but +there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I +had a rotten disposition, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you? + +Mr. PIC. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening +years; haven't you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr. +Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct? + +Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another +"Jr.," or II or III? + +Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him. + +Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation? + +Mr. PIC. After the separation. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the +separation? + +Mr. PIC. I was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he +worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, +and we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period +of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right? + +Mr. PIC. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place? + +Mr. PIC. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half. + +Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child +support to your son? + +Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was +concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the +attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. +That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much +as I could out of the salary I would make. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to +her? + +Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent +monthly checks. + +Mr. JENNER. In the same amount? + +Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as +alimony? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have +all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her +the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall? + +Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly +or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 +semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her. + +Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a +month, is that right? + +Mr. PIC. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry? + +Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name? + +Mr. PIC. Marjorie. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her given name? + +Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow? + +Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had +died. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy? + +Mr. PIC. Girl. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her name? + +Mr. PIC. Martha. + +Mr. JENNER. How old is she? + +Mr. PIC. 17 this July. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where +Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you? + +Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew +where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she +moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., +or Brownsville; I just don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they +refresh your recollection. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 +Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it. + +Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember +that? + +Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic +Avenue? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year? + +Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947? + +Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue? + +Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort +Worth about then. + +Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she +was in Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments +were finally stopped, is that right? + +Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1950? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved +around quite a bit, as we know? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National +Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our +company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of +red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those +addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where +she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the +check. + +Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and +through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew +he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether +he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury +Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he +had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a +dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, +because I didn't know he was working. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the +Coast Guard? + +Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me +it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. +So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney +and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was +self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, +it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a +letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as +the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last +check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about +the 1-year age, that I actually seen him. + +Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old. + +Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never +seen him? + +Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time. + +Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you +haven't seen Marguerite? + +Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that. + +Mr. JENNER. 37 years? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you? + +Mr. PIC. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did +you? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names +were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, +which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I +didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and +her son, and all. + +I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, +"Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention +it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy +at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. No; I never met him. + +Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is +that right? + +Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl? + +Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment? + +Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had +another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in +the paper. + +Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time? + +Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess +he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother +never did tell him about his old man. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even +know if he knows you are alive, do you? + +Mr. PIC. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things? + +Mr. PIC. No; you never know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it +has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions. + +Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. +Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was +mentioned to me. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if +you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may +waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the +deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now +what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you +want to waive that? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I +can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since +the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want +a lot of publicity or anything, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have +testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news +media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and +telling us what you know about it. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO + +The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. +Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as +follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness +is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint +resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted +governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will +provide you copies of those documents. + +Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness +is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you +actually received 3 days' notice. + +Mr. CARRO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any +question that you will---- + +Mr. CARRO. There's no problem. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro, +concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you +had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time +he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953-54. + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, would you state your full name +for the record. + +Mr. CARRO. Well, my name is John Carro. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. CARRO. 56 Lakeside Drive, in Yonkers, State of New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you presently employed? + +Mr. CARRO. I am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of +New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are an assistant to the mayor? + +Mr. CARRO. An assistant to the mayor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mr. CARRO. I was born in Orocovis, P.R. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When? + +Mr. CARRO. August 21, 1927. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States? + +Mr. CARRO. I came to the United States, I believe it was in 1937--'37. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you came to New York at that time? + +Mr. CARRO. New York City; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its +environs? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational +background? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college +and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham +University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in +1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital +corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public +Administration, under the city executive program. + +I am an attorney and have a B.S. degree from the University of Fordham. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here +in New York? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice +in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present +time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law +partnership where I practice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned +as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court. + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New York? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At what time did you first become so assigned? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic +Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am +trying to recollect--from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October +of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public +office or any other---- + +Mr. CARRO. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator +for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer +of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was +with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman +and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a +social--I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I +worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council +of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the +"street gang project." + +From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against +Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative. + +In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a +privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds +and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate +director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the +mayor of the city of New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate +to youth, or more generally---- + +Mr. CARRO. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with +the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board, +the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I +do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge +of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although +that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own +background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor +on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the +Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the +situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become interested in this? Was this +because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior +to that? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up +in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and +actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went +into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much +better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I +happened to read--I heard that probation work with youth--than welfare +investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work, +and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the +streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court +and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police +department, in the thought that I would like to do that. + +I have an interest in young people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you worked as a probation officer +did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes, I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about +that in your own words? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was +about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before +the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey +Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite +a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; +he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of +Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out +why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were +fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had +referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had +been asked to come into court with the boy. + +My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not +bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, +and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging +truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy +be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study. +The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to +make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible +determination as to the case. + +This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made +a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer +assigned to do the investigation in the case. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald +was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed +in the Youth House, is that correct? + +Mr. CARRO. Remanded, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Remanded. + +Mr. CARRO. Pending investigation, and for a sociological study while +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he +was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House? + +Mr. CARRO. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to +develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy +about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, +talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole +background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he +was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling +relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this +particular instance it was most important because there was a question +of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the +boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he +lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of +his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get +a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, +his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, +get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed +should happen in this instance. + +Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation +officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation +officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along +with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what +was going on in Youth House. + +In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some +contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, +and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his +off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is +also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, +along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits +to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and +put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given +to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a +decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, +whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, +whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever +the judge would deem in the particular instance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was +remanded to Youth House? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth +House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget +whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York +State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at +least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point +taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, +and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when I +say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with +his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. +This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do +anything. + +The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was +just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for +a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a +little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he +asked for the study at the Youth House. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who worked with Lee Oswald at the Youth House? + +Mr. CARRO. No; I only know that--I did not know the staff by name. I +had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I +know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send +you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report, +but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee +Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that you remember receiving Dr. Hartogs' +report? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the +doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is +incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr. +Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief +psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that +came to us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed +these children and talked to them? + +Mr. CARRO. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or did he just administer the work of other +psychiatrists, do you know? + +Mr. CARRO. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the +work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he +saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr. +Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else can you remember of your contacts with Lee +Oswald? + +Mr. CARRO. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you +can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did +not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the +first couple of days. It was only almost--I believe it was after the +burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the +day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of +the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that +it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas, +1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that +you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior. + +A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you +know who that case is?" + +And he said, "That was the case you handled. Don't you remember?" + +And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and +what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb +feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with +it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer +one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about +something that I knew that no one else knew, and I went upstairs and I +told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that +had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I +should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington, +so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything." + +The story didn't break in the papers--this was on a Tuesday or +Wednesday--until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley, +and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter +showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found +out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called +city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do +with him?" + +They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him." +But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was +actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're +not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened. +I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have +done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know, +that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that +this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were +Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who +spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to +relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy +was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic +probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to +begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. +And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and +he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from +the average boy that I had on probation. + +And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable +boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly +bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat +guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was +one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did +not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; +he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have +liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not--how do you call it--not +odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy +bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is +a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it +mean anything to me. + +As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had +any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I +was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty. + +Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the +fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched +me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just +seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that +once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms +he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he +would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. +I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the +treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he--it +seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some +adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he +was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and +not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity +for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in +perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either +receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at +home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution. + +Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to +involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the +child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened +herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment +and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to +it, and she resisted this. + +We tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to +court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe +it was, and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back +with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision +per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be +brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to +see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms, +and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around +for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about +that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him +psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out +of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the +court's OK. + +As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before +Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes, +that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is +when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the +court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for +working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting +us know, and just never came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea +that you were going to take the boy and place him? + +Mr. CARRO. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly +were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, +"Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and +try that." + +I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the +boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the +recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also; +something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go +back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, +marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a summary report in the file that he had been +elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report +to that effect. Do you recall anything about that? + +Mr. CARRO. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he +neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never +said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would +pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute +the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper +headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the +American flag." + +Mr. LIEBELER. That happens from time to time, I suppose, in children +that age? + +Mr. CARRO. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little +disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know, +singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I +recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had the feeling that the +possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, +which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a +threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the +boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having +nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as +the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted +that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering +me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to +go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see +the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need +brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of +means in Louisiana when my husband was alive." + +Here in New York she just felt that people were--this was just +bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need +to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he +is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him +there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it +is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is +negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself +will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we +needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may +have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her +involved in whatever plan we had for the boy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to seek your opinion on that. + +Mr. CARRO. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so +self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, +and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a +boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went +to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the +attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is +getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot +do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her +inability to cope with this situation. + +Then this plus, this idea--I don't know if she, in fact, came from +wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she +was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been +downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his +problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they +lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar +with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class +Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a +little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis +and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact +that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his +manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he +would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same +way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department +store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was +really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she +seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not +think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if--I +can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years +myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a +New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey +New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business +everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of +situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the +city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or +Louisiana, that this had---- + +Mr. CARRO. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have +thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that +in some other States--I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a +boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to +court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got +involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I +said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no +question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss +was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that. +I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State +and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her +she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under +the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the +court felt that it was OK. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State, +that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on +vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was +referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without +coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before +she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it +would be up to the judge. + +You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit +it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what +you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you +go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or +you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark, +N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with +such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write +to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see +if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan +or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out +of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in +reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests +of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this +is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out +to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the +court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. +And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and +the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing. + +So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have +to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But despite that fact she left the jurisdiction? + +Mr. CARRO. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was +returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then, +and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have +extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. +This is about the sum total of what happened there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of +the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he +went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost +9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various +institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to +service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, +because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that +this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy +of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age +and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were +taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the +kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant +place and he was--well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and +he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated +their being able to service him. + +I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and +they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the +intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him +down. + +Children's village at the time, which could have given service to +this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at +this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so +on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to +our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a +psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at +the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which +was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure +preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were +actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and +this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to +be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the +limits of the situation we had with the boy at home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own +psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth +House, is it not? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d +Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the +kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, +and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would be an outpatient-type situation? + +Mr. CARRO. An outpatient-type of situation, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never actually did do that, however, because he left +the State? + +Mr. CARRO. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and +having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed +than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time? + +Mr. CARRO. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who +committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed +boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a +truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent +behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted +as--I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be +mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really +had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you +know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior +which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more +extreme nature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Than his? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a +real mental problem or prone to violence or---- + +Mr. CARRO. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems +in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York +Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New +York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who +commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really +criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that +attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just +stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a +matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive +psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school +we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More +seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes +in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. +It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm +to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school +rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property +or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in +here. + +It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the +reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because +although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always +someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate +to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the +court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and +parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children. + +But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going +to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the +family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He +wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man. +He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going +for him outside. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show +any inclination to cooperate. + +Mr. CARRO. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there +was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, +"Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through, +between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there +out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him +see these things through. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend +placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy +himself, you would say? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors +rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance +or psychotic disorder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy +was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into +where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out---- + +Mr. CARRO. Fly kites or pigeons, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a +tendency to stay home and watch television? + +Mr. CARRO. No---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Wait, please---- + +Mr. CARRO. I am sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different +kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on +Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of +environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind +that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of +environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is +that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came +here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East +Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a +Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto +Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to +virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city, +because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me +outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my +hands. + +I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was +downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates--I don't think I was down +there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just +stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock. + +Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when +somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I +fought with the Negro boys until things worked out--and, as I remember, +things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school. + +But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the +situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them. + +Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over +his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and +to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids +wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There +is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and +everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and +he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any +part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I +recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school +and that he had other, more important things to learn and do. + +Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I +don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on +my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I +thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way +of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another +fashion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that some statements have been made, based +apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people +who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old, +to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing +the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the +assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such +indication in Lee Oswald? + +Mr. CARRO. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be +extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection +or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a +streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists +along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply +disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a +couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have +done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many +people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that +just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal +living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that +you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from +just blowing up or exploding altogether. + +I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would +someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican +youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe +this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are +human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one +day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and +say, "I am me. I am alive." + +I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond +Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was +flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited +him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the +paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize +that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, +the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment. +And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's +attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, +and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that +motivated Oswald? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently +was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been +knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he +had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some +people are prone to this. + +I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in +my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like +this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want +somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I +don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage. + +As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the +Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said +he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly +these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things +any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that +would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there +would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty +sincerely say such a thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the +fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been +under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to +review the records of the case before you---- + +Mr. CARRO. No; I had no--there was nothing to review. Those +kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only +recollection--and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who +came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned--there were five +reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't +know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he +seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating +what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, +and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my +recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a +friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from +me, who called me to say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you yourself have not actually reviewed---- + +Mr. CARRO. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to +refresh my recollection about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition +that was filed, or the memorandum---- + +Mr. CARRO. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't--an +FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't +know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, +as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what +was in the record there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The record that you prepared---- + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my +record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside +of the records he had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The records which you would have prepared would be +prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and +they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct? + +Mr. CARRO. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point +as to what happened 12 years ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document +that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears +to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald. +This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would +ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you +recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in +fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth +House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in +connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is +the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the +judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form +where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, +the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you +go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, +family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and +neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and +special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, +which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the +incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where +you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and +evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer +based on his getting together all this data. + +And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which +is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the +probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the +actual study. + +And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, +who appeared, when, and I note that my signature--not my signature but +my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took +place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time +he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954. + +Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I +made to the court. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it finally concludes with your statement---- + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court +action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no +appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, +the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported +that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to +the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former +associate thought that the family may have been living in California. + +Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our +jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; +we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but +couldn't get back any positive reports. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would this particular document, which I will mark as +"Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New +York--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of +the record as a special report? + +Mr. CARRO. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually +the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own +small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the +docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are +the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation +department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is +just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the +month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate +report. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of +the action taken? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is the record. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with the case? + +Mr. CARRO. This is the record that the probation officer maintains +while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and +reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and +any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here +and make a small notation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition +for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial +it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying +it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this +report? + +Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for +one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn--and I refer to the +entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation--those bearing the name John +Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked +is a somewhat illegible copy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow +paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and +make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr. +Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would +be of help to the Commission? + +Mr. CARRO. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that +you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been +able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the +time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this +point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you. + +Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and +I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original +psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it +is, and they are amply--I don't think that I could add anything +independently that would be of help to the Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more +questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission +for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is +another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are +associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The +Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely. + +Mr. CARRO. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would +like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help +in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Carro. + +Mr. CARRO. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS + +The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April +16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. +Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963, +and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing +the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, +that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and +the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy +of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will +provide you with copies of these documents. + +The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that +a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' +notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also +entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice +since we are here. + +Dr. HARTOGS. That's right, sure, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which +the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in +1953 or 1954. + +Would you state your full name for the record, please. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Renatus Hartogs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Dr. HARTOGS. 7 East 86th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born and when? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States, Doctor? + +Dr. HARTOGS. On December 4, 1940. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You received your education in Germany, is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the +University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical +degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I +came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the +requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a +medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I +have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In what field is that? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In clinical psychopathology. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are---- + +Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State +of New York, is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of +medicine? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice +of medicine as a psychiatrist? + +Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United +States as a psychiatrist? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium? + +Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of +medicine? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House +of New York City, is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief +psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have +been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of +psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are +psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number. +As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I +submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and +it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not. + +I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric +aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very +interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional +public of New York City is invited. + +So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason +why I vaguely remember him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief +psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much +the same in 1953 as they are now? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A staff? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have +about two staff members for every child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were +other psychiatrists. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your +staff. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953? + +Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. +Sometimes we had even four. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who +were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they +were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff +continuously. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New +York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? +Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the +city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. +Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then +later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration +and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was +maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation +department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth +House. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it +still a private organization at that time? + +Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the +procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House +for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the +Youth House; he goes to the Youth House. + +Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then? + +Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary +screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure +drawings. That is a special test that is given. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a +preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right +away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis +and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in +Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child +goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the +techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy. +Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to +school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops +for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have +our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health. + +So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various +departments. + +Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the +parents of the child who are invited. + +Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see +the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the +social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, +I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I +have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the +recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist. + +And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate +in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth +House staff. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your +time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House? + +Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you +see during the period of time in a week, average week? + +Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours +with each child, is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen +for about half an hour to an hour. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By you? + +Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which +takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that +counts about 2 hours. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth +House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can +remember about that interview in your own words. + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed +this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on +this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge +of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to +have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had +a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was +rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a +mild charge as truancy from school. + +This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is +the reason why we discussed him in the seminar. + +I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, +pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had +to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous +fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact +with reality. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was? + +Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning +to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his +own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with +people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember +actually. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection +of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you +gave; is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview +with Lee Oswald itself? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he +was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture +of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that +you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the +general subject matter of the seminar? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the +professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an +interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because +of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and +the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was +opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about +the development, background and early history of the child; then the +Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the +school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his +findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the +findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the +court. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject +matter for the seminar? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select +these children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar +prepared? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written +down; it is purely informal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar +would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you +and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court +in respect of Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this +youngster should be committed to an institution. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you +recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the +personality pattern disturbance; is that correct? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that +is the average stay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is +observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric +observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, +or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his +actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a +training school. These are the three purposes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy +would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something +like that? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is +maximum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended +that Oswald be committed to? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific +institution. This is a prerogative of the court. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of +institution to which you recommend a child? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training +school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this +case what I recommended. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, +because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the +FBI? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that +is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of +his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially +dangerous? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after +the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had +previous contact? + +Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice +Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that +Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the +psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I +was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording? + +Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; +potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the +expressions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of +work? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others? + +Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that +indicated this? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that +Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New +York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the +one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did +not know for sure, but it is possible. + +And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, +"You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for +sure that it was me, because they must have read a report. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that +you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some +doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then +reconstructed everything in my mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated, by recalling---- + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, then I recalled everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any statement to television people in +connection with this at all? + +Dr. HARTOGS. About Oswald? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the +television people asked me to make a statement on television in general +about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any +name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general +psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the +President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall approximately what you said? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That a person who would commit such an act has been very +likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against +persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to +overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an +act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, +which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge +his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general +terms. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated +on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had +examined Lee Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was not? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call +me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or +something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At that time neither one of you were---- + +Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination +which you had made of Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the +report which you made at the time you examined Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that +report since the assassination? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards +your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own +independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview +with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed +you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly +impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time, +because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling +that to the agents? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in +control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. +He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say, +nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective +about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I +remembered; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and +pale-faced boy? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about +Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality +disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis? + +Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as +I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their +opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, +his mental endowment? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least +average at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. +Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a +document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a +report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 +years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by +the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report +for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to +my initials. + +(Witness complies.) + +(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's +Report" marked "Exhibit 1.") + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the +report that you prepared at that time? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at +the report that you made at that time? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern +disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." +Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you +wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built, +well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on +charge of truancy." + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled +"Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, +did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should +be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and +guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should +be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to +a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same +time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance +through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work +out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an +outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted +to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment +on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore +possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this +boy?" + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly +understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11 +years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11 +years ago. + +Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and +on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that +possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the +seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any +indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would +indicate this possible violent outburst, is there? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall +it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it +in the report? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the +diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with +a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade +aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I +did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is +no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially +dangerous" in the report. + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my +words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in +occurrence, are they not amongst people? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the +three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or +an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The +passive-aggressive one is the least common. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the +passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, +what do they indicate? + +Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under +which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile +tendencies toward others? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the +aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations +or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length +of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, +this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around +the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike +everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the +Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would +indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the +mother? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but +the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for +the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment +or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not? + +Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of +psychotic mental changes could be made"? + +Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and +hallucinations. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological +impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort +which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality? + +Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home +environment here in New York at the time he came? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you +now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having +died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and +that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a +short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the +Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department +store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found +difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed +differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand +Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a +generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not +dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given +some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the +people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did +not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were +true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way +that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality +disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or +conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern +disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early +childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It +is not the result of recent conditioning. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an +opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have +caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy? + +Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a +father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved +mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks +that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what +motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about? + +Dr. HARTOGS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the +report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for +giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we +want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much, +Doctor. + +Dr. HARTOGS. Okay. + +"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to +Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of +being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is +concerned. This is his first contact with the law. + +"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely +talking about himself and his feelings. He likes _the_ give the +impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep +himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the +effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional +wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient +clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of +_awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal +tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and +I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and +according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and +negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content +was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at. + +"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning +presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract +thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation +in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. +Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the +television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the +learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is +'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The +discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the +low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has +arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and +emotional discouragement. + +"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was +born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while +the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This +occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision +of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely +dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only +way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself +competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee +claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has +hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food +for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some +food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother +rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed +the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much +on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has +vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, +through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and +frustrations. He did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and +when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_ +of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is +to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social +worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved +and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to +understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does +not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent +protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a +complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested +enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and +help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee. + +"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the +exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting +from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental +injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental +disease. + +"_Summary for Probation Officer's Report_: + +"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and +functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic +truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of +neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee +has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid +features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an +emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of +really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, +absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted +mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form +of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression +that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very +patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into +group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he +should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and +guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should +be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, +to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the +same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic +guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not +work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan +on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could +be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression +that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter +and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to +the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly +of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the +organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the +PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood." + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL + +The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m., +on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, +N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was +examined and testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized +to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has +promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from +witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is +entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give +testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each +witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you +will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony +since you are here. Is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that +if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your +own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts, +releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you +wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the +transcripts are released? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as +a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and +his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details +of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, +if you would. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. 1347 River Road, Teaneck. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. New York City. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in +New York as a social worker? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working as a social worker? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. In March of 1950. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue in that work? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. I'm still working as a social worker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the city? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; on a part-time basis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational +background? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of +Social Work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with +the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that +correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For whom did you work as a social worker? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Youth House. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still working for Youth House? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I'm not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did +you terminate your employment with Youth House? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in +August--well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same +institution setup, in August of 1958. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth +House as it existed in 1953? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. In what aspect? + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went +there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had +gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for +a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court, +so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for +diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth +House, which was given to the judge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a report was this? What was in it? What did +it say? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history +taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy +and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth +House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House +psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the Youth House psychiatrist? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Dr. Renatus Hartogs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were +there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and +reported, do you know? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by +a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from +time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by +Dr. Hartogs alone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report +of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other +workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report +from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, +so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Those would be given to the social workers; is that +correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And used as a basis for the social worker's report? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Not as a basis for it but incorporated into it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from +the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her +report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social +worker; is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the +course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. After the President's assassination, the name meant +nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and +it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it +was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband +that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time +I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought +that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he +looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he +was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that +was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans, +which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I +remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as +it was at that time? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little +boy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your +recollection? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And improve it at all? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since the---- + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in +those days. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to his mother at all? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am +terribly curious to see my report again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you know Dr. Hartogs? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to +1958--6 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him since that time? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; we don't see each other socially at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't spoken to him? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About the Oswald case; is that right? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't seen him since I left Youth House. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that from time to time +the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to +instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the +psychologists and other employees of Youth House? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars. +We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I +remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being +the sole role. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But there were seminars? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you. +Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the +subject of one of these seminars? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for +Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. I only read in the paper that it was truancy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no independent recollection about it +otherwise at all? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled +"Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7, +1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the +social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time +have been you; is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And still is? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the +report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey +Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you +prepared? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. This is indubitably mine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact +with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of +the interview, were they not? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he +was still at Youth House. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The point being that the report would accurately reflect +the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. As accurately as I could; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it was prepared on or about the time that you +conducted the interview, was it not? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Correct, yes; and shortly afterward. + +(Document marked "Exhibit 1.") + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as +Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964, +and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if +you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking +about the same thing. + +(Witness complies.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another report, which upon examination you +will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the +Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic +copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated +into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which +should go into the report to the court. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown +you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your +actual contact with the boy and with the mother? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared +Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to +the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other +personnel; is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been +referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy," +and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of +7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" +and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework +supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2. + +(Document marked "Exhibit 2.") + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have +written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an +"E" like that. I don't know who did that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report +prepared by you? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation +into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the +undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are +talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in +connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed +so that you could add anything other than that which is already set +forth in the written report which you prepared at that time? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you +prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in +1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent +tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of +violence? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report +that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of +serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not +prepared to say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the +material set forth in your report; is that correct? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add +to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be +helpful to the Commission in its work? + +Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much +on behalf of the Commission. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel. + +Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO + +The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the +U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. +Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness +is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint +resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted +governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. + +The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot +do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will +provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred. + +Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness +is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give +testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice. + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he +wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice +requirement since you are here; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the +association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey +Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine +Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of +the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa +Ana, Calif., for a period of time. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state +your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank? + +Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number? + +Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed? + +Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, +71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army? + +Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army? + +Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a +linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. +That is what that last 6 in that digit means. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army? + +Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you +received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were +stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. +Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for +Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic +training took care of that. + +December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I +arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile +Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was +transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same +artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's +driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I +could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then +promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany? + +Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1962? + +Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line +battery, Delta Battery. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time? + +Mr. DELGADO. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook? + +Mr. DELGADO. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that +correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook. + +Mr. LIEBELER. First cook? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am +working. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your +military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified +to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to +establish your proficiency in the Spanish language? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the +OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the +service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military +records. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language +school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish +language? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into +the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where? + +Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn? + +Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the +Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's +no record of it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and +my mother lives in California. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave +me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine +Corps; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school. + +Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like +a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to +school in P.S. No. 2. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn? + +Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. +I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue +Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California? + +Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back +to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went +to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it +is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and +went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the +11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual +Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that +correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you +then join the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d +Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that? + +Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making +Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2 +months, and I joined the Marine Corps. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico? + +Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My +mother came when she was about 13. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now? + +Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, +S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp +Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in +electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? +Do you remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon +graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was +aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air +Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning +school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and +graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, +Santa Ana, Calif. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any +time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi +or Jacksonville? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school +in Jacksonville and Biloxi? + +Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military +Occupation Specialty. Is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was +what? + +Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I +guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, +control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and +help of aircraft running into problems. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got +discharged. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your +training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort +in the course of your work at Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified +information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret +clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and +challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature +of your work, you actually worked in a control room? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you +would then challenge that aircraft? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft +requesting it to identify itself were classified information? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the +radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each +site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are +and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what +outfit covers us and things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter---- + +Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the +capabilities of the radars, as I said before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And how high---- + +Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets +knew these things? + +Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication +charts, which is also a secret. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts? + +Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the +phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. +Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, +he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or +code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it +up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or +not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour +to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of +any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed? + +Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa +Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. +I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we +had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This +is all before Christmas, before I took my leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958? + +Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and +he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody +bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't +associate with too many people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really +developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was +commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the +beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just +so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when +Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, +and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, +and they all took over." It was a big joke. + +So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he +got transferred to mine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. +Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he +didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So +the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, +you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts? + +Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many men---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half +lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with +a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in +one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we +had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being +transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And +we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer +that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how +to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of +life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. +He didn't think our Government had too much to offer. + +He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified +information that I know of out or see anybody about it. + +As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range +at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a +sharpshooter at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the +rifle; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use? + +Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's + +Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle? + +Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut +designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them +up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in +good shape, clean? + +Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting +gigged for one thing or another. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle? + +Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as +the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was +told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was +basically a man that complained quite frequently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they +told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him +and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each +other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man +in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an +easier way for him to get something done. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were +asked to do something instead of ordered to do something? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called +him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oz? + +Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the +bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the +outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up +that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling +me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he +didn't understand it like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa +Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date +of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before +I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately? + +Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to +the time he came to Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from +the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the +Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a +couple of guys stationed with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was +two of them stationed with him overseas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else +overseas other than Atsugi? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines +for a while? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; not that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been +stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a +small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the +Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this +question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle +practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much +detail as you can remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before +we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second +highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 +to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low +ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the +sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't +firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best +firer on the line. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at +all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think +it was, just barely sharpshooter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Minimum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Rank? + +Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; +pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, +and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a +plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one? + +Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there +was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on +line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but +at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, +because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, +but he didn't give a darn. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely? + +Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as +the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that +the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates +the targets. + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as +Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular +lines; then we went to the pits, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very +comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, +you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the +disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, +you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in +the line from you when you fired? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one? + +Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle +at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my +picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was +doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I +didn't want no competition. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just five? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in +the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that +you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your +score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that +way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO +line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down +there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, +and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they +both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the +man down the pit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's +score could have been fixed up; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go +down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, +and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is +pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both +scorecards to correspond with each other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at +Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been +interviewed prior to this time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By whom? + +Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you? + +Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About five times? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times? + +Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, +because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same +fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different +fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a +Spanish interpreter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you +speak? + +Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go +down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all +right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college +graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type +of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish +countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you +know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man +from England the way he speaks pure English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when +he spoke to you in Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty +in interpreting my Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion +that you weren't very proficient in Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I +go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they +talked to you? Were they---- + +Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he +was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two +different fellows. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether? + +Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. +He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, +and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this +Spanish guy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to +you? + +Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about +January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe +he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the +battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish +fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They +were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you +was when? + +Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after +Kennedy's assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November +22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice +that you have just told us about? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him? + +Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask +for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I +didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also +keeping the score. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a +good rifle shot; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his +rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average +marine? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a +bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in +the pool; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty +high; that's about all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview +that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took +of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at +the base--is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I +have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the +Spanish-speaking man was there? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you +remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time +they came up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most +marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a +pot, but that is the same thing? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started +for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado +said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning." + +Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not +come close to winning? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I +always had an expert badge on me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that +correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the +carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be +reflected in your military records, would they not? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files +also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they +are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes +into your records. That's why they are so strict. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that +qualification firing that you can pencil in your score? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had +penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that? + +Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it +you were more than lucky. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was +a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way +of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who +is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of +yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get +together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say +to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on +target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each +other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice +of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with +the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You +just have to take your chances. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or +firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals +like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing +like this? + +Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the +targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score. + +Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you +qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the +rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO +and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that +means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in +with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other +along. + +You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is +shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him +the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even +in connection with this? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took +second place? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I +didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to +school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I +never got real close to any of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said +that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that +just must be a mistake; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said +that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he +didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was +a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how +you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the +first interview that you had? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, +and I was at ease there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been? + +Mr. DELGADO. The address? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and +qualify was some time in the spring of 1959? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time +everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going +to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could +have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept +on badgering me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the +Spanish-speaking agent was present? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you? + +Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about? + +Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking +at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was +sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking +out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he +was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case +of jitters, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, +that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to +get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have +got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in +Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish +into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, +you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go +to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go +in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going +to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, +you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him. + +You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where +we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we +try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, +and that is not going to do. + +If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is +giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to +hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you +know, get with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and +forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you +mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that +correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with +Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the +time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made +it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one +of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along +the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities +of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was +going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people +a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian +purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated +with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, +and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot +him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he +should have gone about doing it. + +Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and +I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro +was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, +you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came +in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, +enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become +officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable +discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he +got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and +fought with Castro in the Escambres. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; +and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, +you know. + +So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish +and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the +same line as Castro did at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and +lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, +you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take +over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of +Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, +pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the +United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning +of Castro. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and +were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was +out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and +things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. +But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started +actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to +Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on +asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English +person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution +movement?" + +I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any +country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be +trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he +started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought +himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to +me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but +enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common +Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which +way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff. + +As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate +of some sort, he couldn't hold his own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something +like that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and +asking for things and telling them something. + +And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how +about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't +know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to +get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I +told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this +wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to +answer him. I told him go see them. + +After a while he told me he was in contact with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you +know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one +time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I +was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, +and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was +addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as +I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling +me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these +letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all +the time. He always had money. That's why. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say? + +Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was +pretty tight. + +So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa +Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make +it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is +on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some +people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him. + +We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small +chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his. + +I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay +like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train. + +Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana, +Mexico. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can +remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate. + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; +after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man, +because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a +call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be +a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find +somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit +with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours +talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or +what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing +when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about +every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you +know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was +posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half +before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time +to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to +10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or +otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock, +if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 +o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night. + +I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew +that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick +mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he +was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his +mother was sick. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked +to? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard +duty that he was on; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run? + +Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to +4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. +Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time +with the Cuban Consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to +be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. Also, up to this time +he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from +home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our +hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see +one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact +with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and +newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it +was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the +Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; +it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, +so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that +periodical. It was a newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the +Cuban consulate; did he not? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, +and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we +get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know? + +Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came +to Oswald from the Cuban consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the +envelope, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive +seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost +looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I +just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't +understand. It was Latin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban +consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that +envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and +one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested +because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that +paper again, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban +consulate was about? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the +conversation that you had about going over to Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had +this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to--once +he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to +a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in +2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over +here in 2 years, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far +as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going +over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider---- + +Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started +actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you +know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact +if we wanted to go, you know, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious +about going to Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, +so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's +attitude and his approach? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper +reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same +reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't +getting the money from Cuba that we were before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were +getting a distorted view of Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was +happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much +correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got +came from the Cuban consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started +corresponding with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or +pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian--aside from +English, of course? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think +it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big +block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty +good, so I understand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that? + +Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a +whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would +try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn +a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire +to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. +And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some +idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he +probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in +Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty +in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that +he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come +over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas +to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must +have been supported by Castro. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee in Louisiana? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of +his arrest. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing +pamphlets out in the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after---- + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until +approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in +Germany? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to +school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop +that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was +thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never +did follow through. There was too much redtape. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, +but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you +learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not? + +Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got +discharged. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures +all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the +investigation there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out +of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you +were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that +he was in Berlin, going to school? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this +idea? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he +couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure +he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict, +you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought +he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to +study there. He wanted to study psychology. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university +that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the +Marines? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's +two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If +he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was +in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to +Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in +psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably +wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very +well have gone to the one in Berlin? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train +him their way. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet +Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they +would train him their way? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the +Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to +use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to +be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a +factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating +to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured +this out for yourself? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak +Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine +Corps? + +Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and +hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be +understood. That's not too clear, is it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a +117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was +interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, +things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read +poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and +things like that, he was a great fan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently +proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or +anything like that. + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how +well Oswald could speak Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him? + +Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then +this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave +me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test? + +Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you +know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read +it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me +what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that? + +Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you +think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you +know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you +know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time +understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking +fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him +what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times +he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words +for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. +That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it +off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in +Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on +socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were +held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would +speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far +as basic conversation and debate; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about +socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give +him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish +in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him? + +Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of +superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In +fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because +we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak +Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was +small talk when we were talking Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you +on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became +so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on +socialism in Spanish. + +Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our +Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in +front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically +the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, +and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were +exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever +we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it +either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English? + +Mr. DELGADO. In English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple +of other fellows went to Tijuana. + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because +when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was +Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me +something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he +would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with +the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just +what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI +agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to +learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach +them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was +going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down +there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he +asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had +no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your +outfit? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? + +Mr. DELGADO. Jones. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Jones? + +Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating? + +Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do? + +Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another +fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've +teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some +money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I +haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in +Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that. +Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a +little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same +amount of Spanish as Oswald knew? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much? + +Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than +they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a +book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald +was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he +would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for +this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can +use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and +present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a +misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I +would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some +place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you +know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way +of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase. +I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of +these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't +put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's +the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that +you use it now and not later?" Things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to +put them in a sentence logically? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that? + +Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In +Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the +show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the +show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it +around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much +the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned +the Spanish words? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that +Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly +proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish +phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas +known? + +Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he +wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you +know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if +you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and +made himself understood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the +kind you buy out there for about $2. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You +mentioned before he spoke Russian. + +Mr. DELGADO. Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that +time or highly proficient? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the +paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could +speak it also. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then +another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was +German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't +figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some +of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize +them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do +remember, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German? + +Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been +to Germany? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, +you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other +language to any extent; he just used a few words? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in +doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; +and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I +was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was +speaking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words? + +Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just +phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the +Marines? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any +Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were +stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same +thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in +English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any +Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then? + +Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught +him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my +help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing +that is happening now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to +get you to change your story? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the +proposition that Oswald understood Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say. + +Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to +believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had +the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not +being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be +at a tie with the Cuban government. + +Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI +agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about +Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you +get about the agents? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no +authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach +somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I +am concerned. + +If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6 +months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me, +I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my +ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could +take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach +him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach +him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months' +time he could hold a conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself +were not good at Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents' +attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, +he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he +did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My +dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you +know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I +don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't +tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That +is no practical use for him, you know. + +I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a +Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer +from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what +I teach these guys, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and +understand them; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and +Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that +he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could +not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the +Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your +Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and +real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak +Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard +time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and +sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer +bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied +that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking +agent was there? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is +that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your +Spanish to express yourself completely? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what +that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say +it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just +about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is +working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other +fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and +deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made +another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the +majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States? + +Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then? + +Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles +with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many +times Oswald went to Los Angeles? + +Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just once? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as +far as I can remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one +occasion? + +Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these +people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never +asked him. It wasn't my business, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban +Consulate? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of +some sort. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on +weekends at other times? + +Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know---- + +Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one +particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one +occasion that you can remember; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same +answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, +that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back +and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, +you know. I was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding +officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other +week or anything like that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to Los Angeles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Every week? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three +weekends a month. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times +that he went into Los Angeles? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that +Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport +shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited +up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is +that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that he would often talk at length about the opera; +is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried to be a listener, but I wasn't too +interested. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to be interested in girls? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend +write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; +never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And +when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9 +times out of 10 I ended up paying for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I +read in Life Magazine? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say? + +Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a +statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a +statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the +football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact +in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a +captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he +went off the team. + +To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant +colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in +contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on +details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in +the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the +football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we +worked, and he was too old to play football. + +Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I +remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald +left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's +what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big +agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like +this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along +and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was? +Was this the issue---- + +Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the +picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover, +holding the rifle? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or +psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was +commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with +Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever +comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going +to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any +interest in sports? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the +football team? + +Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went +out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you +know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and +handball; and that was it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player? + +Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play? + +Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, +quarterback or anything like that, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these? + +Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the +battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for +competition. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football. + +Mr. DELGADO. Flag football. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football? + +Mr. DELGADO. Touch football. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this +trip to Tijuana? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, it happened on one of our weekends off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me there. I would say about May, something +like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959. + +Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before +the rifle qualification or after? + +Mr. DELGADO. After. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much after? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period, +because we were about just gotten paid, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I +can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why +because they worked in a different department than I did there, never +had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had +the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told +them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for +a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he +wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with +me plenty of times and he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's +go to Tijuana." + +He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of +us were, in casual clothes. + +We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and +all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't +register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How +did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before, +because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to +get to this place, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo? + +Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of Tijuana? + +Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of Tijuana. Have you been over there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No. + +Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have +got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles +out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2 +miles away from the center of the town. + +When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he +had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had +been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I +can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting +bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have +been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking +fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of +being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these +clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was +really nice, a nice place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, +he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big +girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all. + +Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling +stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you +know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about +the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you +can remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was +when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P. +gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put +in for a new I.D. card and what have you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Tijuana? + +Mr. DELGADO. In Tijuana. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the +customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone. + +Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay in Tijuana itself or did you stay across the +border? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown Tijuana. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are +some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a +girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me +like he had one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his +experiences, that you can remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of +life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like +that to exist, things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a +copy of Das Kapital? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember? + +Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was +circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one +time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was +reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said +that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it. + +So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying +the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know. + +He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it. + +Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the +room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to +put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to +assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only +logical explanation. + +They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see +him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, +you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the +room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to +find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals +take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book, +the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. +But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and +the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist +people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the +socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like +that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running +the whole farm and the farmer was working for them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know the name of the book? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the book? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is called the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell. + +Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he +wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read +it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention +apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they +got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting +among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing +that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made +the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No. + +Mr. DELGADO. That is just the way you interpret it; right? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an +anti-Communist book. + +Mr. DELGADO. Is it really? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each +other a little bit; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on +persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being +shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you +know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point +came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army, +very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he +was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady +stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in +charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to +have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's +statement with no proof whatsoever. + +So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new +governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, +something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you +will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," +you know. + +I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they +started executing these people on just mere word of mouth. + +Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on +there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting +more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. More highly? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month +later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must +have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I +come back he was already gone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he +actually got out of the Marines? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get +away from Oswald before you went on leave? + +Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and +all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be +under another guy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to +talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue +with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly +disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got +to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk +out and leave the conversation in the air. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody? + +Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at +Santa Ana? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is +that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted? + +Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the +section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found +out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to +the other huts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before +this question of your transfer ever came up? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let +us review that for a moment. + +Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately---- + +Mr. DELGADO. 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave? + +Mr. DELGADO. What? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and +left, or did you go on leave and then come back? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave? + +Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something +like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I +think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part +to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come +back to New York? + +Mr. DELGADO. To New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them? + +Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came +back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the +story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under +investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them +about August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July? + +Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I +know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good +weather. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually +transferred to another hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only +transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a +transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be +bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, +and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a +hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth +and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a +hardship discharge, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same +quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the +Marines together about going to Russia? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never did? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least +$800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to +go through. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you +mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was? + +Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los +Angeles--the month, you want? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it---- + +Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was +one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle +practice? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I +don't think we had any political discussions at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I +say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these +incidents, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after +your leave before you were discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset +hut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call +Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is +German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. +But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald +"Comrade," or anything like that, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Call. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know? + +Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. +Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He +used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," +and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call +said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get +mixed up in it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him +Oswaldovich? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too? + +Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have +too many close friends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a +good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly +for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because +he liked classical music and good books, now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports +and that sort of thing? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know +Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing +formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and +some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they +were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. +So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing +it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack +around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled +that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time +since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped +out, Oswald the first one he seen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that? + +Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. +The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who? + +Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad +leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a +sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute +him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of +these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging +next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's +what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who +might have known Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but +I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, +Holbrook or--something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato +rancher. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these +people? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho +usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud +about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not +the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked +in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were +pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But +Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember +mentioning him to the FBI agents? + +Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short +fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged +from the Marine Corps. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call? + +Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he +was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged? + +Mr. DELGADO. Corporal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what? + +Mr. DELGADO. Private. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't +been promoted? + +Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he +was court-martialed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who +knew him from overseas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the +war room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were +passing notes back and forth. + +Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a +big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets +would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when +we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft +were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to +talk, he would hand a note to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time? + +Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at +this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who +had the aircraft on their scopes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes? + +Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from +doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on +the plotting board. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were +permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. +Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that +you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks. + +Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI? + +Mr. DELGADO. Positive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all? + +Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have +made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have +been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was he? + +Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. +His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big +boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I +wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he? + +Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, +and he was also our platoon officer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant +Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that +correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard +shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk? + +Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant +Lusk? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them? + +Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the +misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us +up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 +o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy +walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the +diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old +man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up +there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, +"You're getting as bad as Oz." + +But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with +the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like +walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on +restriction at the same time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be +court-martialed for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties +with Oswald? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion? + +Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to +do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. +We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including +Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go +to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other +countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you +back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say? + +Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in +trouble like that? + +Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period +of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. +And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a +route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if +you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And +he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm +bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the +same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two +guys defected. + +Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this +later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it +was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working +for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same +route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, +and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing +just how you go about doing it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also +defected to Russia at that time? + +Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year +afterwards? + +Mr. DELGADO. A year later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men +did defect? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I +assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the +two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I +remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we +were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get +there, now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States +into Mexico into Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I +would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something +to that effect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were +going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination +that Oswald went to Mexico? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or +something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to +Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico +on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him +to cross over into Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba. + +Mr. DELGADO. Or had any---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going +to Cuba. + +Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are +confusing this as something that Oswald said before? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according +to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route +was done in 1960 or 1961. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion? + +Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. +That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was +religious. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a +Maker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth +or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one +falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about +religion? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with +religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, +you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He +himself never went. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, +you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. +Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show +how wrong it was? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and +I told them he was an atheist. That's all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote +from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look +silly? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he +did that? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism +that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the +Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase +it--everything was common or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good +thing? + +Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the +military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an +individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together +in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning +everything, and everybody worked for the state. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, +and like socialism, and still hate the military? + +Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people +love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same +people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant +Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked +discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that +told him what to do? + +Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. +He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at +all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, +or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any +kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a +complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been +longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no +respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. +But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, +he wouldn't like anything you told him to do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this +comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military? + +(Short recess.) + +(Question read.) + +Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that +the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to +do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs +along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that +order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a +whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would +argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that +somebody should give orders like this and---- + +Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone +to the Soviet Union? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe---- + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to +do any such thing? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that +he planned to go to Russia? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before---- + +Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to +the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once? + +Mr. DELGADO. Once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition +treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into +any trouble? Do you remember that? + +Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he +ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other +countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina +would be the next best." + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he +intended to go to Russia? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition +treaties? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel---- + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them? + +Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you +know, university--campus. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. +Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was +discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or +three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went +down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because +it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name? + +Mr. DELGADO. Don. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Don? + +Mr. DELGADO. Don. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the +same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your +recollection on that? + +Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I +seen Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, +you know, that kind of talk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to +teach---- + +Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we +were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time +once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, +so we didn't have that much time together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on +the post for a while after he came to---- + +Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and +then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife +in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call +him Lee or---- + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name? + +Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the +military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow +referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last +name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I +didn't even know his name was Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with +Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he +asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in +any kind of real program to teach him Spanish? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he +wanted interpreted, that's it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in +your outfit? + +Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of +the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, +Charley Brown, but I can't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell? + +Mr. DELGADO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI? + +Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. +I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored +fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the +dark. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the +FBI now? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not +Brown. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you +think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation? + +Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this +particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his +estimation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were +as smart as Oswald was? + +Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get +in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The officers? + +Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, +which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would +say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of +five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you +know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, +you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and +politics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could +imagine. + +Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used +to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got +in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just +walk off, you know, and leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him? + +Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional +beer. I never seen him drunk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any +homosexual tendencies? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with +girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In +fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he +thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit +with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two +fellows they caught. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or +did you ever discuss that with him? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was +studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, +you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go +and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was +more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here +and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you +know, and he'd argue that point. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow? + +Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor? + +Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical +joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only +one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a +quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his +face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through +open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could +remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you +know [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced? + +Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any +sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have +no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very +much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS + +The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at +U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first +duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows: + +Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 +12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone +conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general +counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the +Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a +resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President +Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; +and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the +taking of depositions. + +And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are +aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the +duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and +involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald +Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons +who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people +involved, who became involved in that tragic event. + +One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is +our information that you had some contact with him while you were in +the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a +few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089. + +Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, +are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the +Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty +in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what +and who you are right at the moment. + +Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie +Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education +with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And with a family? + +Mr. POWERS. Of two children. + +Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American? + +Mr. POWERS. That's also correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And where were you born? + +Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my +birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers? + +Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become +acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise? + +Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first +arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville, +Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of +the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine +in charge. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time? + +Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that? + +Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them---- + +Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your +recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it. + +Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders. + +Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping +and Receiving Station, Keesler---- + +Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May +1956. + +Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. 1957? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report +to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block +21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force +Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators +Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon +arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty." + +And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these +marines. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders +because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had +with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in +fact it was May 2, 1957? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him +while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. +I mean previous to this May 2d order. + +Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he +doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of +time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the +only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were +directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, +if you would like to call it that. + +Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. +I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's +correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in +which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your +group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to---- + +Mr. POWERS. Keesler---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in +Mississippi, Biloxi? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And who were the others? + +Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Read it, please. + +Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. +Camarata, 1632342. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against +mine? I had 1653230, am I in error? + +Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that +appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next +name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that +appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d? + +Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please. + +Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have +an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you +about. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did. + +Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be +together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time? + +Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"? + +Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from +then on were--ran relatively parallel? + +Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We +did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders +to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at +Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the +same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and +graduation, if you would like to call it that. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat +because some of the people reported in early to California and some of +them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that +some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, +which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different. + +I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, +Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and +Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east +coast, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled +from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he +was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was +normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this +attachment to Keesler. + +I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the +other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age? + +Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth? + +Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was---- + +Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October +18, 1939? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval +Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with +respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any +question about him? + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful? + +Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that +you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact +that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a +train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most +of us. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given? + +Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 +days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed +Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. +So we reported for duty on that particular day. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, +give his training, in Keesler Field. + +Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the +operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft +in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was +similar; it was the same in context. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men? + +Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively +parallel then? + +Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as +attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same +level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were +brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of +what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in +the classes that we did attend. + +Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and +warning operator course? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other +aircraft warning devices? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military +Occupation Specialty? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming +out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and +then after-- + +Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me. + +Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it +does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they +issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may +be somewhat faded or dim. + +And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional +digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground +control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early +warning system. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler? + +Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we +picked up our orders to go to California. + +Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June +19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July +1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in +the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred +here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would +be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20---- + +Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by +commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there +to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then +proceeded to California by commercial vehicle. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, +Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at +Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was +he a loner while he was at Keesler Field? + +Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to +use. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to +come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that +he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was +always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would +get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general +personality would alienate the group against him. + +And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come +to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life +where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a +personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was +concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine +characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were +concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to +a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. On what? + +Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, +this is a personal opinion. + +And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he +was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were +in there in Mississippi. + +He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one +that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was +concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything. + +He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by +education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an +intelligent individual. + +He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what? + +Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit. + +Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he +was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, +that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way +out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my +mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that +is really true or something that I want to recall---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like---- + +Mr. POWERS. About him. + +Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your +impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to +do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that +took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and +thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report +from you as we possibly can. + +Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that +it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to +me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that +particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same +barracks? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular +barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as +possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, +two in the room. + +It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a +squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first +time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he +stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, +but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that +something came up at this particular time. + +He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better +than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just +as good as anybody wanted to be. + +Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a +class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability? + +Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified +to say who was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the +course of your studies? + +Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was +talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to +me, please? + +(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.) + +Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire +that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from +Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at +Keesler? + +Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual +in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that +most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together +here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together +and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other +personally more than at any other time. + +I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind +as well as the other people in the group. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as +leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to +worry about him as competitively? + +Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our +careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't +any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were +all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there +was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the +marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the +way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and +well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an +advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any +differentiation of privates. + +I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest +relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank +barrier or difference here. + +I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school +and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which +we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is +a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce +discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank +said something. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out? + +Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant. + +Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had +homosexual tendencies? + +Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one +is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their +characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their +personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some +respects. + +Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine---- + +Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely +related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that +period of time. + +Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that +your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you +elaborate on that? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to +lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group +felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if +what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go +along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on +the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time +he did not. + +And I would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was +responsive to the group as a whole. + +At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see +today. I see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and +of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for +education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who +was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say +he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own +that he was an individual that you could sway. + +Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further +myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that +I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is +the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term. + +I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, +and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have. + +I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and +he stood in his beliefs. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching? + +Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high +school, if any? + +Mr. POWERS. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a +Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree +from the University, and this will either be in physical education or +guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education +attendance after you left the Marines? + +Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine +Corps, and then I went after my service. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period +about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school? + +Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of +the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that +had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in +the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my +education. + +And I think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any +individual that had a college education, there was a number of them +while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a +college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these +boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And +I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading +and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things +of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of +college education. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any +disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of +his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further +education? + +Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject? + +Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was +there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason +that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, +he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he +didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service +to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines +jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your +attention of any kind? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in +my mind at this time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this---- + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he--during this +period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans? + +Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to +go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was +only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home +on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were +free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. +And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't +in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends. + +I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all +weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this +possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at +Biloxi, Miss. + +Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together +on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or +more of you? + +Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we +had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as +long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at +this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were +somewhat different than the other fellows. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base? + +Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home +in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to +the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots +of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used +to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go +downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, +I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and +Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, +they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie +around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald +going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. +And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he +went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever +around there. + +Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he +have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave +card periods? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it +wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, +we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to +the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall +him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays +or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines +were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force +inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home +to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and +we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was +anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to +get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he +went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the +Biloxi area, is your impression? + +Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you +mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force +base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, +the town, the community, I'm not sure. + +But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would +be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base. + +Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel +to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is +that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the +scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top. + +Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in +proficiency be a pretty fair rating? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out +of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third +of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would +imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to +El Toro, you went by your own respective routes? + +Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago +together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I +continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another +marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from +Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. +And I want to say, it was Bandoni---- + +Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection? + +Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and +I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the +airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not +sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at +a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the +other fellows there. + +Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald? + +Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not. + +Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station---- + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the +intervening period, that is, this leave period? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was +stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned +Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect. + +Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas? + +Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this +is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I +don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was +under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say +Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted---- + +Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in +Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of +having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having +lived for a while in Texas? + +Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. +New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he +used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's +say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, +but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is +where he went. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when +I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August +draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It +was sometime in August, around the first of August. + +Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th? + +Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro +approximately a month then? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there? + +Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a +replacement trainee. + +Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for +overseas. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher +authority? + +Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he +showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was +like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what +he was told and that was it. + +I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial +exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time? + +Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same +unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he +had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other +words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man +rather than Oswald the rabbit. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can +be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he +would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other +words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going +to let anybody else get what he could have. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that +you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period +of time that you were at El Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual +at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and +this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in +Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the +most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't +think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and +got in the July draft. + +Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a +different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to +start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and +again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late +off his leave, he took an extra week or something. + +It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains +there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he +took his leave in. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from El +Toro? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. For overseas? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the +same ship. + +Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail? + +Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name +Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you? + +Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats +and Mike boats. + +Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat? + +Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts. + +Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for +loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while +we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the +21st of August, am I correct? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they +are not given to individuals as such. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, +what foreign port? + +Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama. + +Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. +Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the military base? + +Mr. POWERS. That we reported to? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. Atsugi. + +Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base? + +Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's +primary mission is a Navy base. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, +yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must +have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he---- + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these +taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald +appears in? + +Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a +class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it +shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated. + +I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or +anything like that. + +Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata +and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald +and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but +Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force--rather Marine +base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, +down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a +while and talk to him. + +And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that +was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he +would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. I-O-W-C---- + +Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I +think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me +that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I +possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football +trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling +season. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life +on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did +together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you +overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the +platoon or group to Oswald. + +Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting +to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank +associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, +you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was +brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of +the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, +and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were +some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can +remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was +quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not +real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much +proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe +play--usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to +8 hours, playing chess. + +Mr. JENNER. Four? + +Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point +where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little +bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get +violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased +when he would win. + +And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. +He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his +life. + +And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, +and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books +back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up +westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of +literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt +Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read +it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I +still have the book. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read? + +Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that +I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks +that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," +and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not +sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the +United States," and democracy, and books of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books? + +Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops--I'll use that for a lack of +a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where +they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up +and it was standard procedure, I assume. + +Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit? + +Mr. POWERS. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read +"Leaves of Grass"? + +Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but +this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something +that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug +store or something of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly +because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated +than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for +my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think +this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction +or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the +people that had more education than the average marine there. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? + +Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"? + +Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal? + +Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular +time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had +in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was +the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself +this way. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least +at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to +reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that +regard? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in +Mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than +other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. I can't +recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my +mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that +he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, +he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this +nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did +this to---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on +the trip over? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over? + +Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, +whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I +don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were---- + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either +something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of +this man during this period of time? + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, +was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the +Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of +the Marines, you might be good gangsters? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this +particular period of time or not, I'm not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement? + +Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably +parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think +it was--this was a common statement, but as I recall, he--he did say +this. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, +whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have +been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some +griping---- + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines? + +Mr. POWERS. This would be normal. + +Mr. JENNER. Or something similar? + +Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would +say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether +one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance +to it. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, what was your assignment? + +Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and +assigned to crews within this squadron. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that? + +Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at +Atsugi, Japan? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar +operator? + +Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost +total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played +football during the fall and during this period of time we would +play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the +Philippines, and I stayed in Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines? + +Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron +went down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, +probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, +and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then +out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that +time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January---- + +Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1? + +Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group. + +Mr. JENNER. About how many men? + +Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, +and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft +to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the +aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that? + +Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it +yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and +you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, +and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to +speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in +range or where he could see it visually, and they took over. + +Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, +when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular +sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign +aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" +coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, +if it didn't have the identification system on. + +Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy---- + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in +the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in +Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have +the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they +used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft +straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft +after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew. + +Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually +looking for hot bogeys? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I +was playing football or---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football? + +Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics? + +Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes +went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out? + +Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, +in the Philippines? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was that? + +Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? + +Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines? + +Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point. + +Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation? + +Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They +were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and +then this--something---- + +Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, +somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a +particular period of time; and then there was another operation going +to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and +then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore +at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued +the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at +that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and +apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the +next operation. + +Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at +Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point? + +Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point +is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can +almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but +they were designated--Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay +was the landing area. + +Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared +either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, +and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where +he got that, and now you explained it for us. + +Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the +swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it. + +Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's +Cubi Point and Subic Bay. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They +were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was +for the aircraft. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier +that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when +you rejoined the squadron? + +Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my +particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people +that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them +were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States +somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the +Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to +death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the +scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm +and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun +which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns? + +Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing +that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning +against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there--you don't know what the official finding was +with respect to---- + +Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it? + +Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other +than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a guy +could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way +[indicating], and "boom," it went off. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there +any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in +that incident? + +Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all. + +Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald. + +Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use +of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the +chamber free of slugs? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure--again I can't say for sure, but it seems +to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it +seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or +supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in +other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your +chamber itself should be kept free. + +Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to +click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as +happened. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with +your radar scanning assignment? + +Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned +personnel do it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to +guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this happened again, I think, after the rest of +the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us +were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were +two of us, or three of us from the squadron. + +Mr. JENNER. Who were they? + +Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private--Private, +First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who +the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and +at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as +it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 +aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which +Oswald was included in, for the mainland. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the +mainland? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot? + +Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, +so he must have been there; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection +with these special airplanes of which you now speak? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, +what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the +site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that +the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went +up. I think this is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were +shipped to Corregidor? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew +in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where +they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we +went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or +6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they +dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and +then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to +Corregidor? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor? + +Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division +in the operation of military exercises. + +Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi +Point? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated +aircraft, scanning for it. + +Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald? + +Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind +about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I +have a picture of it in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that +he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess +duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he? + +Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are +assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out +of the year. + +Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months? + +Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from +Corregidor? + +Mr. POWERS. LST. + +Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your +recollection? + +Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March +period. + +Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but +Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind +at Cubi Point. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do--did you return then to Atsugi? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. About when? + +Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958. + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there? + +Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it +was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot +himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which +part of the body it was. + +Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow. + +Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was +in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening +that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your information and what is still your +information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot. + +Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it +or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I +recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, +and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a +concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure. + +They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually +court-martialed then, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon? + +Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a +Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if +any? + +Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed +up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I +think this was the feeling of the group at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going +to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of +the squadron with respect to him---- + +Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to---- + +Mr. JENNER. During this period of time? + +Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual +held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an +overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of +the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period +that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never +went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum +that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, +and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the +Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in +a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance +sometimes. + +Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during +this period? + +Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, +because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall +that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the +other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to +get out of the service? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you +recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I +want to recall it or something that is actually fact. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully. + +Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure +speculation? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that +because he had the unregistered or private weapon? + +Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is +maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a +court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is +something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now +that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to +recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the +tendency to recall something that---- + +Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else. + +Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me +that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had +been given some psychiatric attention? + +Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in +the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm +not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing? + +Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to +substantiate it or anything of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves? + +Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was +after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and +set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this +was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement +that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, +I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement +to him again. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is +that what you mean? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the +practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the +ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he +did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said +that somewhere? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally +attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he +wanted to stay in that particular country. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as +soon stay in Japan? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you +were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or +on weekends, you would have liberty? + +Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base +at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, +and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, +and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against +you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the +sergeant on duty and went on liberty. + +Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty? + +Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day. + +Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends? + +Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty +weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month. + +Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Per month? + +Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of +the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get? + +Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the +Philippines, Operation Strong Back? + +Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that? + +Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play +football; I don't remember what that was. + +Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back? + +Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he +was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in +Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the +ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there. + +Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you? + +Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across---- + +Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with +Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result +of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol? + +Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came +after I left Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en +route most of June. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to +him? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks +that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you +recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for +an extension of his stay in Japan? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because +a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again +attached any significance to it. + +Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he +did or not, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities? + +Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation +maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at +least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just +went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was +it. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular +connection? + +Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was +limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, +Ozzie." + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language? + +Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book +or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian +or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to +the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I +relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in +Japan, but I'm not sure, though. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian +language as such? + +Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no. + +Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language? + +Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have +any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just +brief glimpses. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with +him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a +noncommissioned officer? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. +It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, +maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came +out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he +had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at +somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of +proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any +time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious +offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant? + +Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I +think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant +before I left to come home, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation +that he was not an aggressive person? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to +coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a +little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that +you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not +from close relationships with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand +up for his own rights? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the +States? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too +scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine +Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of +training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective +appraisal during that first 9 months. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party? + +Mr. POWERS. None that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles? + +Mr. POWERS. None that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines? + +Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your +presence? + +Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or +to any issues that I would recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you? + +Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine +Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other +marines? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any +other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie +in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. +But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other +individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did +have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to +authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him +that he would flare up once in a while. + +Mr. JENNER. He would? + +Mr. POWERS. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident---- + +Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back---- + +Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I +recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming +out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say +that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him +would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could +give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he +would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you +knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this +only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him +authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he +would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it. + +Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached +the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, +but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any +conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there +anything mentioned about his being in Chicago? + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee? + +Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack +Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard +that name associated with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself +by and large? + +Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be +sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty +at a different time. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated? + +Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's +just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling +good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication +with it---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in +Japan? + +Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other +individual in close relationship with the people that you are there +with. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible +relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by +name or---- + +Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee +Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type +of thing. I'm not sure what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of +him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that +he did have. + +Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines. + +Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say +there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere. + +Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as +an odd-ball? + +Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball +means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's +different. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different. + +Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the +normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he +was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want +to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, +that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry +because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this +goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident. + +And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, +this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell +right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it +just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an +impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps +tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't +fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine +Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed +to be. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined? + +Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite +side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent +than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I +wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent +than most of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say +"intelligence," education and the development of intelligence? + +Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better +developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the +time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects +appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group +or in the groups that he was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that +account? + +Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he +portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, +of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the +Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic +problems or school. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he +was? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't +think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but +all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and +the Browning automatic rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater? + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with +people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject +that he had? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had +the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there +and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would +say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that +was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I +asked you this--to keep by himself? + +Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself? + +Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself. + +Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that +because---- + +Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan +because he was not a member of your platoon? + +Mr. POWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he +was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view? + +Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was +resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not +of the authority itself, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather +what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it +probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado? + +Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thornley? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall? + +Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of---- + +Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph. + +Mr. JENNER. Murray? + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Osborne? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Call? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Botelho? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any +time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing? + +Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there +any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present +about religion? + +Mr. POWERS. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's +full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. +Camarata? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably +recall. + +Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the +name of John E. Donovan? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now. + +Mr. POWERS. No. + +Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis? + +Mr. POWERS. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. +Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy. + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c. + +Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which +I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything +that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall +investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you +had contact with Oswald? + +Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. +I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running +around like him today that can be easily influenced. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you +find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right +to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you +wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also. + +Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why---- + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned---- + +Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned. + +Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter? + +Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN + +The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, +1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart +Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. +Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present. + + +Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely. + +The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members +of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to +investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of +President Kennedy. + +The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the +Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this +Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of +the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses. + +Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these +documents? + +Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading. + +Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? + +Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan. + +Mr. ELY. And where do you live? + +Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C. + +Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va. + +Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown +University. + +Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree? + +Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio. + +Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in +Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. ELY. For how long? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think. + +Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged? + +Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant. + +Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine +Corps? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown +University School of Foreign Service in 1956. + +Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree? + +Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service. + +Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here +because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the +background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were +both members of the Marine Corps. + +Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and +I will interrupt with questions. + +Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I +was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif. + +Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that +confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at +El Toro? + +Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I +believe, 5 miles removed. + +El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of +"LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that +in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a +radar base. + +In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training +officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came +into contact with Oswald. + +Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time? + +Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant. + +Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to +train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some +of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as +all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their +contemporaries and how to get along with them. + +I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on +foreign affairs. + +Mr. ELY. Who told you this? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had +served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some +court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't +know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually +knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my +crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine. + +Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the +relationship between you and Oswald. + +Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding +officer? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a +lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that +crew I was the officer in command. + +Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and +about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed +to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength. + +Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men +with whom you were in closest contact? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a +day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, +sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night +watch. + +During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. +Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion +to talk to him. + +Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of +the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man. + +Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all +the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. +Most of them I had served with in Japan. + +Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan? + +Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played +football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you +a common bond. + +Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much +higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are +interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in +working with them to talk with them about all subjects. + +You were constantly in communication with the center concerning +aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the +intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, +standing at the back of the radar room in off hours. + +I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well. + +Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had +mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there +is any point in going into that any further. + +Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you +thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms +of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald +specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or +would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General +Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being +there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the +center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes +he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the +board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air +Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning +up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions. + +Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a +sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as +they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business. + +He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got +people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always +appreciate. + +Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in +regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his +quarters or his rifle or his uniform? + +Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have +occasion to inspect them. + +But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I +don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out +that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in +that respect. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of +a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three +inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset +hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say +who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I +believe he was transferred to another hut. + +Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially---- + +Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy. + +Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description +of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference +to how he reacted to stress situations. + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency +arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to +myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status +of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the +obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an +obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he +did it, no matter what you told him. + +Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with +regard to his job? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable. + +Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think +that might be overstating the case in the other direction? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal. + +Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald +and his fellow enlisted men? + +Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes. + +Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing +with his peers? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For +better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is +interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get +another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He +read a great deal. + +Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed +to a Russian newspaper. + +Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was +one printed in the Russian language? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not. + +Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper. + +Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as +gospel--although---- + +Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a +Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this +presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the +international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers. + +Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know. + +Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper? + +Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he +took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove +it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his +contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could. + +Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its +ideological content? + +Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in +all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many +great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the +international situation. + +I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must +be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have +probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well +versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation. + +His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign +Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations +throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to +mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates +in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride +in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, +and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given +situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you +very much." + +As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?" + +In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about +that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia. + +And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there +is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more +knowledge than that man." + +And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is +that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the +field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international +political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better +informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international +affairs. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or +situations which he questioned officers about? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly. + +I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He +was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities +in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there +were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was +against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship. + +But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a +Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist. + +Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that +time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our +better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was +not an unpopular belief at that time. + +Mr. ELY. What did he say? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a +godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would +take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him +saying it to anyone else. + +Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military +career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone +whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do +you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, +or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody +interested in other things? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all +services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly +shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common +bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't +think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I +believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared +even that companionship with them consistently. + +Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were +associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual +caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared +Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one +interested in serious reading? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and +the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am +sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer---- + +Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel? + +Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy +fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her +out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested +enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related +to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she +referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and +can talk to her. + +Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn? + +Would that ring a bell? You don't remember? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell. + +Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could +tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his +personality? + +Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than +that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which +Oswald did extensive reading in? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. + +Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the +names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed +to you, have been a mistake? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some +philosophers. + +Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these +gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the +philosopher you see that it is taken out of context. + +I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. +But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew +the name, and that was it. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later +action. + +Mr. ELY. Hegel. + +Did he mention Marx? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, +but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support +anything in particular. + +Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who +interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political +philosophy? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages +other than Russian and English? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak +Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever +cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't +believe he had a command of Spanish. + +Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding +German at all? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out +of the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school +anywhere? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that +he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all +officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly +had the ability, if he had wanted to do it. + +There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I +believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to +attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and +the Secret Service. + +Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend +school in any foreign country? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had +turned up in Moscow. + +Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all +anywhere outside the country. + +Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me. + +Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently +that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so +suddenly. + +Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took +place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any +other country specifically with regard to injustices? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in +talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or +something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that +I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or +wherever I was talking with them about. + +But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the +extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned +that that was unjust. + +Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in +Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the +Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and +Central American family, and their regime as a family. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name? + +Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be +done about problems in Asia or Latin America? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, +particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent +such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in +positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the +Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed. + +Mr. ELY. This is his opinion? + +Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion. + +Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an +inordinate interest in competitive sports. + +Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I +believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make +calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say, +a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A +quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, +at any rate, he stopped playing. + +Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said. + +Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the +Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can +introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are +being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this. + +Were you the captain of this team? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a +gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in +the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And +Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that +time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been +out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and +was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember +him. + +Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all +through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent. + +Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I +think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had +a slender build. + +Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed +and agility? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough. + +Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be +a really good football player? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high +school in a good high school. + +Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, +although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated +to a normal degree. + +Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought +he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, +there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team +spirit. + +Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's +quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order. + +Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this +inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and +that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. +I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks +incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his +contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order. + +Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as +anybody else? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary. + +Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's +proficiency in firing the rifle? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at +that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If +he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, +I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training +officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men +in. + +Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a +rifle? + +Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine +Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are +reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you +can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the +score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen. + +I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he +had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume +that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times +out of 10. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the +weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite +difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards +distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what +is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target +you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO +or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not +impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no +reason to suspect that he did. + +Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to +know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, +and punch the target before the NCO got there? + +Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day. + +For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of +qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target +area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you +were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of +choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2," +and so on. So it would be most unusual. + +But I suppose it does happen. + +Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that +you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the +FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's +characterization? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be +disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very +respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious +to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing +with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and +Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar +that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He +could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper. + +But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. +And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on +foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an +interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, +could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking +about. + +Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs +because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask +questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a +person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident +to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more +intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself +was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that +he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, +whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and +was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone. + +Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of +NCOs and officers? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in +the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and +he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks +inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly +made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude. + +Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was +brighter than the officers he was talking to? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was +brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of +world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, +at least in facts. + +I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and +learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of +intelligence. + +Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any +trouble of a nature which would require administrative action? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall. + +Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline +stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald? + +Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was +rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that +time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers. + +Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange. + +Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when +she was with him? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share +any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international +affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have +known. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the +Marine Corps? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do. + +Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to +get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, +his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a +hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a +bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, +either. + +I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I +got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received +word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change +of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies. + +He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, +all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and +the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft +in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication +code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense +Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range +of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and +radar. + +If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have +told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly +could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally +with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been +able to recall them a month later, either. + +Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level +were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a +fairly widespread action? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other +squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously +between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. +These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond. + +And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or +whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to +be. + +Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter +of course? + +Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right. + +Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which +elicits the change? + +Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some +things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is +no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That +had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a +height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it +has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations. + +It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, +you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height. + +He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, +which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great +distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece +of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and +relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively +safe. He had been schooled on this. + +And that kind of stuff you cannot change. + +Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar +center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us. + +Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain +admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which +is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all +positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as +plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief. + +Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the +training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first +choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt. +Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where +Sergeant Brown is. + +Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on +active duty in the Marine Corps. + +Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief? + +Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If +one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was +senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his +work. + +Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I +think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he +could not handle. + +Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated +leadership qualities? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader. + +Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have +about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide +never to use him as a crew chief again? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief. + +Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was +in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any +offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning +transportation? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could, +including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I +believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him. + +Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did +not from anyone. + +Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help. + +Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge +through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just +word around the squadron. + +Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual +discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get +a discharge? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did +know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I +believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that +he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an +only son, and his mother needed help. + +Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be +termed mental instability? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field +of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they +might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when +anyone is solely interested in one given thing. + +Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly +angry, did he raise his voice? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become +passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in +trying to get you to see what he saw. + +Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms +of pounding the table, screaming? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically +worked up than people we talk with every day. + +Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any +more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he +was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most +guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to +clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, +et cetera. + +I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The +complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his +ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several +instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO +leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a +commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not. + +Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like +that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't +remember. These are things that have been suggested to us. + +Do you recall whether or not he played chess? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some +nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I +won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion +he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable +players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious +beliefs? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he---- + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God. + +Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all? + +Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you +were at Santa Ana? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights. + +Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you +particularly interested in girls. + +Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you +have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his +desires? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in +that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service +for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know +of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as +an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our +conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about +them. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall. + +Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor? + +Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not. + +Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times. + +Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed? + +Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect. + +Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you +remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would +suggest an interest in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. + +However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring +textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they +were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of +these books--I don't recall which one--but say, "Are you familiar with +this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask +about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he +did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in +an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you +what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international +economics. + +Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for? + +Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. What were they? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie. + +Mr. ELY. Anything else? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall. + +Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz. + +Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the +Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether---- + +Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now? + +Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right. + +Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, +but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international +economics, although they might well have been. + +Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was +common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, +or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date +or something. + +Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average +marine, or that he took fewer trips? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of +the ordinary in that respect. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at +Santa Ana? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors. + +Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me. + +Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything +to you? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That +spelling is strictly phonetic. + +Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and +in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with +a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't +ring a bell at all. + +Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on +which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and +Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the +personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and +see whether you think---- + +Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to +say which would be most---- + +Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them +individually. + +Do you remember a man named Thornley? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all. + +Mr. ELY. All right. + +How about a man named Lewis? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all. + +Mr. ELY. Botelho? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall +his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by +the nickname, normally enough, of Bo. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look +him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a +corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with. + +Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I would characterize Call as being modestly +intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but +in reference to his character concerning his intelligence. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He +was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators +to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And +Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very +dependable boy. + +Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald? + +Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life +than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; +Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same +crew with Oswald. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization +number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go +back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I +believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair +to say that all the men on the crew would know him? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew +so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in +the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different +light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day +he went home--whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers? + +Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him. + +Mr. ELY. Osborne? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with +us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually +lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew +him. + +Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant +Brown. + +Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I +think he is now Captain Trail. + +Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I +have already mentioned? + +Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow +named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock +Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area. + +Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred +Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him. + +Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I +don't know if he would remember Oswald or not. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to +drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on +a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not +swear to that. + +Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended +offpost bars or night clubs? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not. + +Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, +less? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of +President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail +told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan. + +Mr. ELY. But from your own---- + +Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he +drank to excess. + +Mr. ELY. But he did drink some? + +Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the +conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact. + +Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the +questions I have for you. + +Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to +figure out what sort of a man Oswald was? + +Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know +that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also +served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. +Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it. + +The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange +that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana. + +Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in +Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on +the phone a couple of times, passing through there. + +Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I +don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people +that were there at the same time. + +Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended +to ask you. + +Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, +or anything that sounded like that? + +Mr. DONOVAN. No. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?" + +Mr. DONOVAN. No. + +Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf +of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time +and testimony. It has been very helpful. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC + +The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15 +p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by +Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ELY. Colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I do. + +Mr. ELY. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the +President's Commission investigating the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses +by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission +by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint +Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness +is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint +resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted +governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you +with these documents, is that correct? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is true. + +Mr. ELY. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each +witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in +and give testimony. + +You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that +notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here +indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement. + +Colonel FOLSOM. It is waived. + +Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. ELY. What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir? + +Colonel FOLSOM. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel +Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C. + +Mr. ELY. How long have you held this position? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Approximately 3 years. + +Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of an idea of your +background--what you did before you entered the Marine Corps? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I was a student. + +Mr. ELY. And how long have you been in the Marine Corps? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I entered active duty in the Marine Corps 5 August 1935. + +Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever +heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Could you tell us in what connection that was? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It was in connection with his record, which was +requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and +they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship, +and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge. + +Mr. ELY. I see. And that is the first time you had ever heard of him? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ELY. Did you ever meet the man? + +Colonel FOLSOM. No. + +Mr. ELY. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, +colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, +but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and +we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test +scores and things like that. + +Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition +Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is. + +(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 +for identification.) + +Colonel FOLSOM. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record +held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine. + +Mr. ELY. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you +have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the +upper right-hand corner. + +We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page +1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's +scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there +were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, 24 +October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment. + +Mr. ELY. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the +abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Pay entry base date. + +Mr. ELY. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has +been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost +due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. +In this instance it was days lost due to confinement. + +Mr. ELY. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class +swimmer. What does that stand for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Unqualified. + +Mr. ELY. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact +that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to +"SA" action. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Supervisory authority action in a court-martial. + +Mr. ELY. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us +generally what this page of the record is. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record +constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization +to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows +conduct and proficiency markings. + +Mr. ELY. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, +could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned? + +Colonel FOLSOM. The Marine Corps marks on a scale of from 0 to 5.0. + +Mr. ELY. 5.0 is the maximum grade? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. And what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? Is there no +minimum? + +Colonel FOLSOM. No; there is none as such, because the markings are +averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing +regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the +difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under +honorable conditions. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable +discharge would be? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I believe--was the question under honorable conditions? + +Mr. ELY. Well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge? + +Colonel FOLSOM. 4.0. + +Mr. ELY. All right. + +Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. +I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the +various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is +labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think +might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an +abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred +to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that +stands for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company, +Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time. + +Mr. ELY. Now, this would have been while he was---- + +Colonel FOLSOM. He joined on 4 May 1957. + +Mr. ELY. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air +Force Base. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; undergoing duty under instruction. + +Mr. ELY. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an +entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that +stand for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital +Yokosuka, Japan. + +Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated +"To Du" would mean return to duty? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is +abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That it was a semiannual marking. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that is abbreviated "To Cnfd." + +Colonel FOLSOM. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence +summary court-martial. + +Mr. ELY. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one +abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Duty under instruction. + +Mr. ELY. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which +I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could +you tell us what that stands for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. In this case he was a replacement trainee. + +Mr. ELY. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for +replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September +1957 is? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control +Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet +Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address +for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan. + +Mr. ELY. And what was the job that he performed? + +Colonel FOLSOM. He was an aviation electronics operator. + +Mr. ELY. All right. I think that with the help you have given us, +anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the +Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress +of Oswald's service. + +Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald +was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military +Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands +for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It is a basic MOS in aviation electronics, I believe. + +Mr. ELY. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit +which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of +that entry? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as +to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows +that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing +period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from +the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a +summary court-martial. + +Mr. ELY. Is there any way of evaluating his score of 113? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a +composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and +time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established +by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and +individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by +their local organizations. + +Mr. ELY. But the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to +time? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate--it is +controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill +the needs of the Marine Corps by--in the varying grades. + +Mr. ELY. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice +here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of +Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These +two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one +being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D" +designation. + +Can you explain what the difference is? + +Colonel FOLSOM. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is +provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It +is a dependency allotment. + +The "D" allotment, I believe, is an additional voluntary contribution. + +Mr. ELY. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to +send out of his pay? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of +Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some +of the abbreviations found in this record. + +Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1 +Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course. +Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship +qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The +"B" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are +fired. + +Mr. ELY. But both of these courses are such that one can record a score? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a +result of the scores. + +In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which +would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a +sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with +the abbreviation "MM" for marksman. + +When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is +a correct designation in accordance with the score fired. + +Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he +would have been still in basic training at San Diego? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what +the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It would have been 210. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for +sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which +you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +Mr. ELY. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45 +caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated +"FAM." That stands for familiarization? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. And that means that no scores---- + +Colonel FOLSOM. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the +people with the operation of the weapon. + +Mr. ELY. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it +correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the +next highest, and expert would be the highest category? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled +"Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see +hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses +taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he +was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these +two abbreviations? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in +aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force +Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and +warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks' +duration. + +Mr. ELY. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that +under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; it is an Air Force School. + +Mr. ELY. And do people from all branches of the service get trained +there? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; we have cross training with all the other services. + +Mr. ELY. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record +of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could +you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores +achieved by Oswald mean? + +Colonel FOLSOM. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant +General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation. + +Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that +he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates +"poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This, +again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor." + +Mr. ELY. This 4 means he got four more questions right than wrong? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses, +and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong. + +His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall +he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout. + +Mr. ELY. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of +classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into +the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was +composed of six examinations. + +Oswald's scores I see range from as low as 92 to as high as 125. + +Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, +and what Oswald's scores in each of them means? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. I will take this in sequence. + +The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral +II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories +throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest. + +The abbreviation "AC"--arithmetical computation--and the score Roman +numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class. + +"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that +he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area. + +"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he +was the bottom portion of the third group in this category. + +Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test +score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a +result of Oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman +III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107. + +Mr. ELY. Would you explain the one designated "RCT"? + +Colonel FOLSOM. The abbreviation "RCT" is--represents radio code test. +There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one +being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to +109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group +III. + +Mr. ELY. Which is the lowest group. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Which is the lowest. + +Mr. ELY. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary +court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial, +and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about +one sentence which to me seems to be in error. + +According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title +"Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of +Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be +suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner +vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be +remitted without further action." + +However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was +noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second +court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June +27, 1958." + +So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. +Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is +that the suspension of the sentence was vacated? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence +was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry. + +Mr. ELY. Right. + +So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and +we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence +was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated. + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +Mr. ELY. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was +court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the +sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the +sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the +first sentence. + +Mr. ELY. That is correct. Thank you. + +On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second +court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general +self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each +charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he +was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of" +Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and +that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found +not guilty? + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. + +Mr. ELY. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found +guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the +Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the +specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking +words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II, +which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military +Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty +on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff +noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him. + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which +is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958, +indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour +had been received and approved. + +Must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is +involved? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the +individual concerned. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer +than he was scheduled to have been over there? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been +approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958. + +Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for +this cancellation was? + +Colonel FOLSOM. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates +that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a +result of the disciplinary action. + +Mr. ELY. So we might guess that because this followed his second +court-martial, that was the reason? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; and it followed it very closely. + +Mr. ELY. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to +ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating +to one event. + +On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro +for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro +from Yuma. + +Is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went +to Yuma? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS, +El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense +exercise, the first one held during 1959. + +Mr. ELY. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that +might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in +the Marine Corps. + +It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career, +private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am +I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a +private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your +E-4 is a corporal? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. This is under the new rank structure. + +Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I +want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is +indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and +July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What +does that stand for? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Confined, serving sentence--it should be summary +court-martial, but let me look at the record. + +Mr. ELY. You mean there should be three "S's"? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a +special in here. + +Yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial. + +Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a +document relating to the high school level general educational +development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page +106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests, +and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile. + +However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was +tested were. Could you tell us what they are? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One, +English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences; +four, physical sciences; five, mathematics. + +Mr. ELY. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off +were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in +which it appears on the report. + +Mr. ELY. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald +received a rating of satisfactory? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory +or unsatisfactory. + +Mr. ELY. Right. + +Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the +lower right-hand corner. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "D" +with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory. + +Mr. ELY. So he could have received a higher rating than he did? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. + +Mr. ELY. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a +rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was +in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of +these numbers insofar as you can? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours +devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics, +two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and +54 on the second. + +The last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject. + +Twenty-five hours physics, score, 75 and 77. + +Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are +on a scale of 100? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume +they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score. + +Mr. ELY. I see. + +Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, +which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous +test carried out to three digits without the decimal point. + +Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This report was prepared on an +electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret. + +Mr. ELY. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the +individual scores. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Do you want to go through all of these? + +Mr. ELY. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have +explained the principle by which the scores are recorded. + +Colonel FOLSOM. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is +a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered +by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading +and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and +pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT". + +These are raw scores. + +Mr. ELY. The ones designated RV, AC, AR, and PA? + +Colonel FOLSOM. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which +converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification +test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery, +and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation +is quite close. + +The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column +indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine. + +Mr. ELY. All right. + +Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already +been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with +the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated +Exhibit 239. + +This exhibit is a photostatic copy. + +Could you tell us, Colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy? + +Colonel FOLSOM. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps +Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1. + +Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are +sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification. + +They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the +individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the +weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in +the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings +are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is, +he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the +same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may +require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired. + +Mr. ELY. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his +firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will +do well on his record firing? + +Colonel FOLSOM. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even +on the day that he fires for record. + +In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather +limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the +purpose for which it was designed. + +Mr. ELY. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, +assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning +the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at +200 yards slow fire--on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand +position---- + +Mr. ELY. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in +Oswald's scorebook? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Right--well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the +three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them--all 10 +shots within the four ring. + +Mr. ELY. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in +terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than +that if he were a good shot? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should +get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position. + +Mr. ELY. And what was his score? + +Colonel FOLSOM. Well, total shown on page 22 would be--he got a score +of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his +record book. + +On Wednesday, he got a score of 38, improved four points. + +Do you want to compute these? + +Mr. ELY. I don't see any point in doing this page by page. + +I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we +could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his +career he was not a particularly outstanding shot. + +Colonel FOLSOM. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates--as a +matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to +achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for +qualification? + +Colonel FOLSOM. I would say so. + +Mr. ELY. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony +that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are +ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you +about the ones that seemed most confusing to me. + +Can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the +record? + +Colonel FOLSOM. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There +are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic +copy contains everything that is in the original record. + +And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those +clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary +court-martial records. + +Mr. ELY. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention +during your testimony today? + +Colonel FOLSOM. No; I do not. + +Mr. ELY. All right. + +In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you +very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN + +The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on +May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John +Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ELY. Will you stand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Please be seated. + +My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses +pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. +11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No. +137. + +Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a +copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the +rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony +from witnesses. + +Is it correct that I have provided you with copies of these documents? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to +3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony. + +You were not given 3 days' notice. + +However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, +and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice +requirement. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Captain George Donabedian, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy. + +Mr. ELY. And what position exactly do you hold? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine +Corps, Washington, D.C. + +Mr. ELY. You are an M.D., is that correct? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. ELY. How long have you held the position of staff medical officer? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Since July 1959. + +Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever +heard of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. No; I had not. + +Mr. ELY. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us +some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald--in other +words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the +man. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Right. + +Mr. ELY. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled +"Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1." + +(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. +1" for identification.) + +Mr. ELY. Doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. This is taken from the health record of the marine. + +Mr. ELY. It is, in other words, a photostatic copy---- + +Captain DONABEDIAN. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each +military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance, +and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, +which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the +inoculations he receives. + +Mr. ELY. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper +right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document, +Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit +No. 1 runs from 132 through 171. + +Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147 +of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958. + +Could you explain it? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has +noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two +drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown +and very hard. Examination." + +Mr. ELY. The copy at that point becomes illegible. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave +him treatment with mineral oil. + +Mr. ELY. And what was the overall diagnosis? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Hemorrhoids was the diagnosis. + +Mr. ELY. And what did you say the treatment was? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. The treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository. + +Mr. ELY. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on +page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we +just referred, and that is the entry dated---- + +Captain DONABEDIAN. 10-6-57. "Urethritis acute. Nonvenereal." + +Mr. ELY. Before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of +10-10-58? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number +is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on +10-13-58. + +Mr. ELY. Do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, +or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and +the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding. + +Mr. ELY. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through +156 of this exhibit. + +I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has +urethral discharge." + +Mr. ELY. Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point---- + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Then they took a smear. + +Mr. ELY. What is the purpose of a smear? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, +the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present. + +And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A +culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the +sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that +particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug +of choice. + +On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the +outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," +which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear +taken. + +September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to +the lab for a smear. + +And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular +morphological resembling neisseria gonococci." + +Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which +causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this +germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to +prove this or disprove it. + +And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like +400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday +in the p.m., for a repeat smear." + +Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat +clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago." + +In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this +profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, +four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture. + +Then on September 22---- + +Mr. ELY. I believe the last item was September 20. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it +says "September 23" underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture." + +The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed +micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that +gives a dark-greenish color discharge. + +Mr. ELY. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the +culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can +we tell? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one. + +The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the 16th. + +Mr. ELY. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, +you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear +rather than a culture? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a +smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they +treat the patient for gonorrhea. + +Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue +chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times +a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given. +And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is. +Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given. + +On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took +a smear. And that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were +noted." + +The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much +heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To +repeat smear, 1 week." + +October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a +smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive +cocci." + +This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has +been doing heavy lifting recently." + +"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the +urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting +recently." + +October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave +him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day. + +No--"return in 5 days." + +They just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in 5 +days. + +"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram +positive cocci noted." + +The next date is hard to tell. Something--"qid for for 5 days." + +The next thing is hard to tell. + +Mr. ELY. All right. That entry is illegible. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list, +9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No. +0303. And in handwriting---- + +Mr. ELY. That is my handwriting, so we will disregard that. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present +illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging +sensation on urination. Past history--previous venereal disease. +Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn +discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative +intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling +gonorrhea." + +Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not +absolutely be certain. + +Mr. ELY. You mentioned that under this previous history column it +mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to +this time? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. At another time, in his past, whenever that would +be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't +notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the +service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different +kinds. + +Mr. ELY. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to +any prior case during his military career? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. No; except those that we reported within those +dates. + +Treatment was procaine penicillin, 900,000 units, intramuscularly for 3 +days. + +Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000 +units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units. + +Mr. ELY. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than +handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156 +is something of a summary. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and +discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for +statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have +been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and +observation. + +Mr. ELY. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony +as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a +typical case of gonorrhea? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; it does. + +Mr. ELY. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem +that he did have gonorrhea at this point? + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Right. + +Mr. ELY. These medical records also contain entries relating to the +gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber +pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are +self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, +Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he +was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into +at this point. + +Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his +medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned +which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal +marine's complaints. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which +many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other +infection, otitis media, in 1957. + +Mr. ELY. That reference appears at page 150. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. And they give him penicillin, 600,000 units, 5 days. + +I see nothing else. + +Mr. ELY. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping +to explain these records for us. + +Captain DONABEDIAN. Thank you. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO + +The following affidavit was executed by James Anthony Botelho on June +3, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA, + _County of San Benito, ss_: + +I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California, +being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957, +to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March +to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control +Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California. + +Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train +Castro's troops because of the money he would earn. + +I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his +discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless +spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with +others. + +Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe +he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that +Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions +like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines +kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him +up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as +"Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to +"American capitalist warmongers." + +At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is +that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in +the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised +when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia. + +Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either +unironed or sloppily ironed. + +As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I +went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa +Ana. + +Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what +sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have +some of the classical records we purchased together. I recall that he +particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played +chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player, +although he was better than I was. + +It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed +his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no +effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him" +in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This +surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was +likely to get better results from him by treating him politely. + +I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for +nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks. + +It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him; +for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana. +I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the +Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out." + +Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be +intoxicated. + +I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall +any remarks concerning his religious beliefs. + +I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I +believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason +unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of +his receiving any visitors. + +Signed this 3d day of June 1964, at San Juan Bautista, Calif. + + (S) James Anthony Botelho, + JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA + +The following affidavit was executed by Donald Peter Camarata on May +19, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA, + _County of Santa Cruz, ss_: + +I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California, +being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the +following military installations while we were both members of +the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, +Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana, +California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville, +Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in +the same unit at that time. + +While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald +was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name +written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian +songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks. + +Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my +return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some +way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal +knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of +this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one +person. + +Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines. +I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he +simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post. + +Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently +resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average +Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However, +he generally followed such orders. + +Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's +intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe +he was intelligent. + +I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian. +I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors--either +the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant--asked Oswald why he read this paper. + +I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish +or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or +Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women +on his part; or of his receiving any visitors. + +Oswald was nicknamed "Oz". + +Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at Santa Cruz, Calif. + + (S) Donald Peter Camarata, + DONALD PETER CAMARATA. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR + +The following affidavit was executed by Peter Francis Connor on May 22, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CONNECTICUT, + _County of New Haven, ss_: + +I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being +first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi, +Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he +was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he +wore an expert rifleman's medal. + +I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist +statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he +characterized as the greatest man in history. + +Although Oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a Robert +Demurs--I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was. + +Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did +they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of +his superiors with insolent remarks. + +I have no recollection to how much Oswald drank. + +I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal, +but I do not remember what sort of books he read. + +Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle +name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it. + +I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his +attitude toward women, or what he did off post. + +Signed this 22d day of May, 1964, at West Haven, Conn. + + (S) Peter Francis Connor, + PETER FRANCIS CONNOR. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF + +The following affidavit was executed by Allen D. Graf on June 15, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of Erie, ss_: + +I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first +duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961. +While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon +Sergeant. + +Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to +resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing +to listen to the views of others. + +Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald +concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He +explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the +depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to +eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a +premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around." + +Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or +opposing capitalism. + +It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because +he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the +Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly. + +Oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports. + +It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in +the "high expert" range. + +Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had +a temper--in check. + +I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of +where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious +beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any +dates. + +Signed this 15th day of June, 1964, at Buffalo, N.Y. + + (S) Allen D. Graf, + ALLEN D. GRAF. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL + +The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of New Orleans, ss_: + +I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, +being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, +until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to +rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of +authority. + +While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as +"Hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." +This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. +It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this +name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no +specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name. + +Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I +did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or +international affairs. + +While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming +intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care +whether or not he got back to the post on time. + +Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to +complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines. + +Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know +what his activities off post were. + +I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames. + +Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, +I am unable to remember Oswald's being there. + +Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La. + + (S) John Rene Heindel, + JOHN RENE HEINDEL. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on +May 15, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF FLORIDA, + _County of Duval, ss_: + +I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville +Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately +October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in +MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part +of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore +during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also +with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I +was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that +at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts. + +Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I +know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away +from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was +homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am +not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if +ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came +to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual. + +Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine +did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or +situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my +opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he--unlike Delgado--was +not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention. + +I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination +of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college +education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a +college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he +once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School. + +Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I +knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; +the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this. + +I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. +Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting +into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which +would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his +studying either Spanish or German. + +Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what +sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with +Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I +remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian +newspaper. + +Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his +being called "Oz". + +Signed this 15th day of May, 1964, at Duval County, Fla. + + (S) David Christie Murray, Jr., + DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL EDWARD MURPHY + +The following affidavit was executed by Paul Edward Murphy on May 16, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA, + _County of Orange, ss_: + +I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa +Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to +September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at +Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in +Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where +it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took +it to Corregidor. + +Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he +had received from superiors, but followed them. + +Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or +ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in +sympathy with Castro. + +One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining +cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot +locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened, +Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald +was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was +not authorized to possess. + +While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed +in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The +Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as +they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as +being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's +receiving other literature of a Socialist nature. + +I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was +overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or +German. + +Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average +in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however, +personally quite neat. + +Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament +was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, +but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight. + +It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a +great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books +he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific +recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I +remember that Oswald--like everyone else--watched Dick Clark's American +Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess. + +I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs. + +I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While +overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other +Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where +he went on those occasions when he did leave. + +Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which +was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname +for no reason other than that it was his middle name. + +I do not recall Oswald's receiving any visitors. + +Signed this 16th day of May, 1964, at Santa Ana, Calif. + + (S) Paul Edward Murphy, + PAUL EDWARD MURPHY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HENRY J. ROUSSEL, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by Henry J. Roussel, Jr., on May +25, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Baton Rouge, ss_: + +I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge, +Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for +approximately three or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in +Santa Ana, California. + +On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen +Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working +for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in +order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's +study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with +Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to +studying Russian, Oswald had studied German. + +I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On +occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer +to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me--and, as far as I know, to my +fellow Marines--that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us +responded by calling _him_ "Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to +recordings of Russian songs. + +My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite +neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders +that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded +Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught +himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any +dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt. + +I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no +recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or +trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper, +and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.") +I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his +jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald. + +Signed this 25th day of May, 1964, at Baton Rouge, La. + + (S) Henry J. Roussel, Jr., + HENRY J. ROUSSEL, Jr. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MACK OSBORNE + +The following affidavit was executed by Mack Osborne on May 18, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS + _County of Lubbock, ss_: + +I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly +sworn, depose and say: + +That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine +Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey +Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him. + +Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his +free time reading papers printed in Russian--which I believe he bought +in Los Angeles--with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe +he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember +their names. + +I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other +men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement +to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him +famous. In retrospect, it is my belief--although he said nothing to +this effect--that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this +statement. + +Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did +the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow +Marines. + +My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability. +Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks +inspections. + +Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they +asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating +that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave +him alone. + +Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me +that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan, +he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. +I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I +remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as +of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan. + +I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not +recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. +Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines +sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he +took such accusations in fun. + +Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the +idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest +to others that he was. + +Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of +books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no +recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would +discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions. + +Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was +part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although +sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had +been to Los Angeles--implying that he had simply gone to break the +monotony. + +I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called +"Oswald" or--by those who knew him well--"Lee Harvey". + +I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors. + +Signed this 18th day of May, 1964, at Lubbock, Tex. + + (S) Mack Osborne, + MACK OSBORNE. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD DENNIS CALL + +The following affidavit was executed by Richard Dennis Call on May 20, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA + _County of Northampton, ss_: + +I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first +duly sworn, depose and say: + +That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September, +1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959, +I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than +Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the +acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to, +and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked +to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were +stationed together. + +It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never +talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what +he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was +just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends. + +Oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning Russian. + +Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he +read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of +time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were +of approximately equal ability. + +Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, +Oswald seldom, if ever, participated. + +During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many +members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed +to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of +Russian classical pieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would +play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?" +I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald +always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that +he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking +about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich." +However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to +the Soviet Union or Cuba. + +On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a +scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to +attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer. + +I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember +anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base +movie theatre. + +Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well +as the average radar operator. + +Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's +Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated. + +Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than +did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff +Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my +opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try +to hide his lack of enthusiasm. + +I have no recollection of Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. + +It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his +refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswald _wanted_ to +be thought of as intelligent. + +Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine +from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had +an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He +succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to +anger Delgado. + +Oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and Stoic. + +Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the +unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of +Oswald's receiving any visitors. + +Signed this 20th day of May, 1964, at Helltown, Pa. + + (S) Richard Dennis Call, + RICHARD DENNIS CALL. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ERWIN DONALD LEWIS + +The following affidavit was executed by Erwin Donald Lewis on June 6, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA + _Orange County, ss_: + +I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being +first duly sworn, depose and say: + +That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine +Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey +Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance. + +Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did +not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he +seldom left the base. + +It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he +could read, write, and speak Russian. + +I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I +heard--although of this I am not completely certain--that he had a +subscription to that publication. + +Signed this 6th day of June, 1964. + + (S) Erwin Donald Lewis, + ERWIN DONALD LEWIS. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARTIN ISAACS + +The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. +courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified +as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on +the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized +to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the +taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure +each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and +joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the +rules governing the taking of testimony. + +The Commission will provide you with a set of those documents. + +Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is +entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give +testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or +not, but---- + +Mr. ISAACS. They told me yesterday about it. It's quite all right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume +that you do wish to waive it. + +Mr. ISAACS. I waive, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, sir. + +We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which +you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family +upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962. + +Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you +state your full name for the record? + +Mr. ISAACS. Martin Isaacs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? + +Mr. ISAACS. 1669 Grand Avenue, Bronx, New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed at the present time? + +Mr. ISAACS. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center, +Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you so employed in June of 1962? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Isaacs? + +Mr. ISAACS. I was born in Hungary, December 12, 1904. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States? + +Mr. ISAACS. I was about 2 or 3 years old. I don't recall exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a citizen of this country? + +Mr. ISAACS. I am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents? + +Mr. ISAACS. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received +derivative citizenship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you employed by the department of welfare? + +Mr. ISAACS. Since May 12, 1934. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New +York; is that correct? + +Mr. ISAACS. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee +Harvey Oswald and his family? + +Mr. ISAACS. I do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the best recollection that you have +concerning that event? + +Mr. ISAACS. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family +was in the Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the +Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this. + +My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to +go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time. +He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to +ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would +be needed to help this family return to Texas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had been informed at that time that they desired to +return to Texas? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at +the moment--I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who +handled the family inside of our intake--told us that this family was +in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the +time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a +repatriated family. + +In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were +repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent +here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they +are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir? + +Mr. ISAACS. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who +was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic +circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself +there, and so they go--either they go directly to our Embassy in the +country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the +Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and +so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances +they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be +returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we +did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the +role that I played in this as I remember--using my memory here---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go +into that. + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family +was a repatriated family? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information +from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake +worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all +these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, +and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned. + +When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. +Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social +Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. +The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean +Elliott. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She is with the New York State Department---- + +Mr. ISAACS. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called +the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, +we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, +and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is +relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, +yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually +happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were. + +Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available +to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. +In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get +enough information in our application blank to show that there was a +brother--I believe it was Robert--who lived in Texas, and I made a +telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with +his wife--I don't remember her first name--and I told her that Mr. +Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to +Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this +cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived +already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately +said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this +money--I don't remember the amount that was involved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone +call? + +Mr. ISAACS. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it +in their presence. + +Now, when I got this information, and she told me--her name was also +Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say--she told me that this money +would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had +with Mr. Oswald. I--excuse me---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and +spoke to his wife? + +Mr. ISAACS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she told you that she would call her husband and find +out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back? + +Mr. ISAACS. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm +uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I +will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's +the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back. + +In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We +always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they +don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and +told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in +and told the Oswalds about this--Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak +English--at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to speak to her? + +Mr. ISAACS. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single +word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told +him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was +really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept +this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, +and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our +policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request +that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet +these expenses, if they can. + +Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the +money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our +decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our +office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and +asking for the money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had done this without telling him---- + +Mr. ISAACS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it? + +Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we +can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the +relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm +not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got +his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they +usually get about relatives. + +Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This +is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and +somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these +funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are +requesting to return to. + +Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us. + +Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the +administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what +we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. +Oswald herself. + +I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, +although I don't know just what had transpired between them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference? + +Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him. + +Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott +of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed +Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we +proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that +these funds have to be used for the family's return fare. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on +that subject yourself? + +Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him +was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we +were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after +Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used? + +Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I +did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some +hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could +be made for his return the next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York +overnight that night? + +Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that +the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I +believe it was. + +Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him +at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember +exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at +the hotel, as I recall it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, +Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall? + +Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I +believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated +or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that +in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee +Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the +next day, do you remember? + +Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall +that at all, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on +one day? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that +I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office? + +Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is +that correct? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, +Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York? + +Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn +from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is +that correct? + +Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his +return from Russia? + +Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection +with this matter? + +Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that +you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald +had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by +Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that +they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like +that to the FBI agent? + +Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this +is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated +around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with +Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that +Oswald had said that? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as +this to the intake worker when he came into the office? + +Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, +sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that +statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the +office, that Oswald---- + +Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as +I remember it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department +of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald +case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of +Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled +"History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a +clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and +I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, +so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document. + +Mr. ISAACS. Sure. + +(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked +Exhibit 1.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the +files provided by the New York City Welfare Department? + +Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared +at a time when a client appears in your office? + +Mr. ISAACS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee +Oswald? + +Mr. ISAACS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource +Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually +filled out by an applicant. + +Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it +not? + +Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource +consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that +receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants +further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, +but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each +place in the form, and we just filed this in our record. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records +of the resource consultant; is that right? + +Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" +as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, +1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. +Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification. + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. + +(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the +resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald +case? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of +Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum +from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, +supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, +relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and +family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the +memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the +same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom. + +(Witness complies.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott? + +Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State +Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize +that, do you not? + +Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you +yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact +that you had with him that you haven't told us about? + +Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was +different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, +which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited +bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always +request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because +she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get +involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and +we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal +Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all +expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring +it to the attention of the administrator. + +But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can +recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in +that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we +assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some +other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along +with their luggage, et cetera. + +The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking +his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior +of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office +that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she +brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child +and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To +feed the child? + +Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention +of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it +was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the +behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those? + +Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather +severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time. +He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the +decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't +get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They +accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they +are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this +case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, +and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that +he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the +administrator. + +Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume +because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary +to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our +section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we +used. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this +incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at +this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this +report? + +Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say +is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that +the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds +that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and +just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of +Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen +the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified +without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was +somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas. + +At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this +Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is +her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that +she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped +to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone +conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled +the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out +of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave +it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read +it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the +FBI. + +Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am +sorry to say that this is all I know about the case. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the +Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon +and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. +It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has +cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We +appreciate it very much. + +ISAACS. We are only too happy to help. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES + +The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. +Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to +tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mrs. BATES. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not? + +Mrs. BATES. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional--I have been. My +name is Pauline. + +Mr. JENNER. Pauline Virginia--isn't it? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Pauline Virginia Bates. + +Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff +for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized +by the Commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries +of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the +Commission. + +Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee +Rankin, general counsel for the Commission? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive +order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number +11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, +authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the +Rules of Procedure of the Commission? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed +papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and +circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the +assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, +and any contacts on your part with any of the parties. + +We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee +Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes +of his? + +Mrs. BATES. They weren't transcribed; they were copied. + +Mr. JENNER. You copied them? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed +them from longhand into typing? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were +written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so. + +Mrs. BATES. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag +paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could +find. + +Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside now? + +Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession? + +Mrs. BATES. I'm a legal public stenographer. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer? + +Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth, 10 years--a little over 10 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And is there a difference between being a legal public +stenographer and a public stenographer? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth +that has legal training. + +Mr. JENNER. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public +stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law +work? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have +done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like +that. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir--Forest Grove, Oreg. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area? + +Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November. + +Mr. JENNER. And you came from where? + +Mrs. BATES. Oakland, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your business or occupation when you were in +Oakland, Calif.? + +Mrs. BATES. Legal stenographer--legal secretary. + +Mr. JENNER. That has always been your--insofar as you have had a +business or occupation--it's been that? + +Mrs. BATES. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards. + +Mr. JENNER. Out on the coast? + +Mrs. BATES. Richmond. I have also been a waitress. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not +intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you +are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going +too far. + +Mrs. BATES. I don't have anything to hide. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I'm sure you don't. + +During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have +occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. BATES. He was known to me as Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so +we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the +person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand +to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that +acquaintanceship arose. + +Mrs. BATES. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my +name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one +in the public stenographers. + +Mr. JENNER. And how was he attired on that occasion? + +Mrs. BATES. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type +jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket. + +Mr. JENNER. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on? + +Mrs. BATES. No; didn't have a shirt on. + +Mr. JENNER. No shirt? + +Mrs. BATES. Just a little white T-shirt--undershirt. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. It was in June. + +Mr. JENNER. In June? What time of the day or night was it? + +Mrs. BATES. It was in the morning. Let's see--I turned those records +over to the FBI. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, give me your best recollection. + +Mrs. BATES. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on +the 18th of June 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. What was said by him and by you? + +Mrs. BATES. He asked if I could do some typing for him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself first? + +Mrs. BATES. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk +in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, +"Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was--that he was--then, he +told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what +your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you say? + +Mrs. BATES. I said it was either 2-1/2 an hour or a dollar a page. + +Mr. JENNER. A page being 8-1/2 by 11--letter-size sheets? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the +work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he +brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, I think it was +10 by 14 or something--one of those large ones. And he said, "I have +some notes here"---- + +Mr. JENNER. I have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that---- + +Mrs. BATES. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--but I'm holding this up only for size. + +Mrs. BATES. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little +wider. + +Mr. JENNER. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]--it's 15 +inches. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time +to, you know, send abstracts out in. + +Mr. JENNER. That's 15 by 9. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I am sure, as I remember it--of course, now, this was +some time ago--it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15--and it looks +like what I use. + +Mr. JENNER. And it had a flap on it? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are +Carrollton Clasp or something like that. + +He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I +looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?" + +He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these +notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin. + +Mr. JENNER. We fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He +said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are +handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil." + +He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em +because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." +So, we agreed that I would do it--but I hadn't seen them yet. + +Mr. JENNER. You hadn't seen the notes yet? + +Mrs. BATES. Huh-uh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. He had it with him. + +Mr. JENNER. What agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do +it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious +to get on it. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you become anxious to get on it? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had +notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he +had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I +thought he was just a kid. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school +students. + +And then I started asking him some questions--"Why did you go to +Russia?"--and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some +of em he wouldn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was +said on that occasion. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence. + +Mr. JENNER. Okay. + +Mrs. BATES. We agreed that I would start typing the notes--and he +wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon--he +wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't want to leave---- + +Mrs. BATES. I couldn't keep a copy of anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you agree that you would do the job under those +circumstances? + +Mrs. BATES. That's what he wanted--and my customers are always right. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, +"It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?" + +And he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the Marine Corps +and had taken elementary Russian--a course in elementary Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mrs. BATES. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He +wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to +drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the +State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange +student--if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes--I didn't +know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that. + +He said, "No"--that the State Department finally agreed to let him go +over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa +to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him +in case he got in trouble or anything. + +So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that. + +And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought +out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even +this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large +pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten +in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when +he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working +conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. His writings were bitter against working conditions? + +Mrs. BATES. And living conditions. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say when he had prepared these notes? + +Mrs. BATES. Just whenever he could. + +Mr. JENNER. When in Russia? + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled +them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over +the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of +course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes? + +Mrs. BATES. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in +the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Were these 3 successive days? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he spend substantially all day with you? + +Mrs. BATES. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days. + +Mr. JENNER. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was +there? + +Mrs. BATES. I worked. And--uh--I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, +single-spaced. + +Mr. JENNER. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were +having some trouble interpreting these notes? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was +partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it--I mean, translate it +for me. And--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. A lot of it was +scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on +it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word +phonetically _surreptiously_], he just had to do it when Marina would +cover for him while he was doing this. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina would cover for him? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so +people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing. + +Mr. JENNER. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to +you, that he was making these notes? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch +for him so that nobody would know that he was making them. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. Kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing +this--because he could have got in trouble. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. He--well, there wasn't much time +to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. +And he was very cool and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Cool? You mean reserved? + +Mrs. BATES. Cold. + +Mr. JENNER. Cold? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Very matter of fact? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you +asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to +answer it, he'd just shut up. + +Mr. JENNER. He'd just ignore you? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, +I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by +the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have +lived out in that part of town." + +He said, "Arlington Heights." + +So--that's--that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing +else to say. In other words--"Just don't say anything more." + +And--uh--I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his +mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked +it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it +was too rich. + +Mr. JENNER. He said that she had become ill? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, +because they hadn't had enough food in a long time. + +Mr. JENNER. Your impression was that they---- + +Mrs. BATES. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think, when---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he arrived June 12--so, he was only--when he reached +your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days. + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort +Worth papers which witness brought with her]. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I will in a moment. + +I want to get from you--what was his attitude toward Russia? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that +goes. But these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and +the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "Anything you +hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all +propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These +May Day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. +It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and +you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all +you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't +have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after +dark." + +And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once +mentioned the word "Communist." + +Mr. JENNER. Either in his notes or orally to you? + +Mrs. BATES. He just said "the party." + +Mr. JENNER. The Party? Those are the words he used--the expression, +rather? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because +there was always a party person around and he'd report you. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the +translation and the notes--to read them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to +become a citizen of Russia? + +Mrs. BATES. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said +that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a 2-year visa and, +of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted +to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go +ahead and we'll send her to you." + +"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again." + +So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so +much cain until they finally let him. + +Mr. JENNER. Raised cain with whom? + +Mrs. BATES. The Russians. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. He wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave +until they let her go. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the +Government of the United States? + +Mrs. BATES. Never. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward +the United States? + +Mrs. BATES. No; I've thought and thought--and, of course, I've been +asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got +10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't +talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into +detail on them. Conversations--he had actual conversations that he had +had with different people over there. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, he had? + +Mrs. BATES. If you could find those notes, I tell you--they were +fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"--was what it was. And they were +coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. +I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence +according to city and dates and things like that. + +Mr. JENNER. How was his spelling? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, the English was fair. + +Mr. JENNER. The spelling? + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. He was an accurate speller? + +Mrs. BATES. Fair. + +Mr. JENNER. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was +misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But +there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but +it's---- + +Mr. JENNER. I am--when I have my secretary. + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah [laughter]. + +College students are notoriously bad spellers. + +Mr. JENNER. Particularly law students. + +Mrs. BATES. Well--no--particularly psychology majors. They're terrible! + +Mr. JENNER. Did you type all of his notes? + +Mrs. BATES. No; not even a third of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me that circumstance. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was--uh--quite +nervous. Uh--the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk +and--uh--if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, +he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting +to know where I was--and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, +"Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 +hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I +can't let you go on." + +And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of +them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he +could pay me. + +And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a +$10 bill out of his pocket and walked out. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or +did he take them back with him at night? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he +never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed--even the +carbon paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Even the carbon paper? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper. + +He did tell me that--I think it was the second day--that there was +a man in Fort Worth--and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've +scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--I just saw the +letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put +into book form--manuscript form. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your +recollection? + +Mrs. BATES. No. Uh--I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it +didn't register with me. + +Mr. JENNER. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer? + +Mrs. BATES. He said he was an engineer--he told me that. But there's +lots of engineers in---- + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. + +Mrs. BATES. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes +published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and +things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. +And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the +man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. +I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee told you that this other person---- + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh, this engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had +read all the notes. + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. +Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes." + +And the man could read and speak Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. That much he did tell me. + +And I just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real +nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to +say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never +showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes--uh--some. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. BATES. That--uh--she loved America and had wanted to come and that +she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and +stay. And that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and +the shops--and that New York had just astounded her. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. And Texas climate--uh--was really good for her. + +Mr. JENNER. The climate, you mean? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +And--uh--he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had +a child. + +Mr. JENNER. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned? + +Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I didn't know he had any. + +Mr. JENNER. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point +at which he had married Marina? + +Mrs. BATES. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression do you have as to the period of time in +Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, it was on Minsk and--uh--that one that starts with +"K"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he +was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could +get the time and get away from people. + +And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together +in just a few months. It was too detailed. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. I see. + +And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes? + +Mrs. BATES. About--from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, +really, because they were all sizes--the paper was. + +Mr. JENNER. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance? + +Mrs. BATES. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced +pages. + +Mr. JENNER. That was letter size? + +Mrs. BATES. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right. + +Mrs. BATES. I wish I could remember more about them but--uh--I think my +legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when +you're not suppose to remember things. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia +and the terrible working conditions. + +They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort +Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing]. + +Mr. JENNER. They are? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final +edition. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. But the text of the story is the same? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the +time? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, after I--uh--after he left, a short time afterward, +Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the Fort Worth Press? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and +talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, +"By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And +the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be +able to help him." + +So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave +me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. And they tried to contact him but couldn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Could not contact---- + +Mrs. BATES. Lee. + +I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something +like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he +was real worried about it, because he needed one. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help +him find a job. + +Mr. JENNER. And they were unable to contact him? + +Mrs. BATES. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home +several times--oh, I think, two or three times, she said--one of the +reporters did. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was this? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. In the summer of 1962? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; he was still out--I guess he was still out +there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused +assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that +the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had +just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could +have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until Caroline +called me. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh; that day? + +Mrs. BATES. That night of the assassination. + +And wondered, she said--I was out at my club--and she said, "Have you +seen any television or listened to any radios?" + +And I said, "No." + +She said, "Well, have you got a television there?" + +And I said, "Yes." + +She said, "Turn it on--and then call me back." + +So, I did. And there he was. + +Mr. JENNER. And the person you saw on television--this would be the +night of the assassination? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee +Oswald---- + +Mrs. BATES. Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of +June? + +Mrs. BATES. 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were firm in your recognition of that person? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone +would--you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew +that's who it was. + +That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was +perusing again]. + +Mr. JENNER. These first two pages? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and +talked with you? + +Mrs. BATES. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see--Thanksgiving was +the following week? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?" + +I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm +advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do." + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. Because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then +even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before +Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all +Wednesday afternoon and talked. So--it wasn't any spur of the moment +thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that. + +Mrs. BATES. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 +days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because +of all the things that happened since. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the interim. + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time +forward--that is, the 20th of June, 1962? + +Mrs. BATES. I saw him on the street twice after that. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. He didn't see me. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him? + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. +I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into +this--uh--variety store--Green's, or Grant's, I think it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him? + +Mrs. BATES. No; he was by himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Marina? + +Mrs. BATES. No; his mother called me. + +Mr. JENNER. When--after the assassination? + +Mrs. BATES. The day the story broke. + +Mr. JENNER. This story that you've shown me? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had +talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late." +She said, "That is not the property--that is my property." + +Mr. JENNER. What is her property? + +Mrs. BATES. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do +some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I +didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her." +She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I +said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late." + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever come out to see you? + +Mrs. BATES. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was the only conversation you ever had with her? + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah--uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound +document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits +and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The +President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be +some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. BATES. I was. + +Mr. JENNER. As you look at those documents--would you leaf through all +the pages I have mentioned? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard--oh! wait a +minute! wait a minute! + +Mr. JENNER. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether +that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that +material? + +Mrs. BATES. Right here. + +Mr. JENNER. As things that he had in his notes. + +Mrs. BATES. (Continuing to peruse notes) Metropole--uh-huh--Minsk. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now referring to page 149? + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. You see something that is familiar to you? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the +punched, ring book paper? + +Mrs. BATES. I believe some of them were. + +Mr. JENNER. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled +left-hand margin? + +Mrs. BATES. Every kind of paper imaginable. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of +that character? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; in pencil and pen. + +Mr. JENNER. In pencil and in pen? + +Mrs. BATES. His pen would run out and he would start in on pencil. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with +the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, +when you transcribed his notes for 3 days? + +Mrs. BATES. It looks very much--as I remember it--it looks very much +like it. + +[The witness points to a particular page.] + +Mr. JENNER. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems +particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of +U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--very definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. What about it awakens your recollection? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, as I remember, that's the way his notes started out. + +Mr. JENNER. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October +16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin +and Metropole Hotel"? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That is as I remember--as I can remember--and +that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they +started out--just like a story. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BATES. A diary. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he take his notes with him, too, when he---- + +Mrs. BATES. Took everything. He wouldn't allow me to keep anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize +any other of the story type of thing? + +Mrs. BATES. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian--on +Russia--his trip to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it +would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes +deal with his subsequent residence in the United States? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And in New Orleans? + +Mrs. BATES. Yeah; which I knew nothing about. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred afterward, in any event. + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I +didn't hear of him afterwards. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press--front page story in +The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50, +final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and +which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence. + +Mrs. BATES. You may have it. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And that is the story---- + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff +writer, as you have described? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that story accurate as you related it to her? + +Mrs. BATES. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend +or correct? + +Mrs. BATES. No, sir. It was read to me before it was ever printed twice. + +Mr. JENNER. It is Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence. + +Mrs. BATES. And we did it very carefully to make it all--so we wouldn't +get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI on December 2, +1963? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; let's see, that was a Saturday, wasn't it--December 2? + +Mr. JENNER. [Referring to calendar] December 2 was a Monday. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, no; they came to my home on Saturday after the story +broke. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you twice? + +Mrs. BATES. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They +just--uh--I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over +to them. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Could it have been Saturday, the 30th of November? + +Mrs. BATES. It was the following Saturday after the story broke. +Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you +that the story was accurate---- + +Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir; gave him a copy of it. + +Mr. JENNER. In every detail, with one exception--which was that Lee +Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, that is not in the story. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mrs. BATES. That was what--the radio and television was trying to put +words in my mouth at that time. And--uh--I don't know how many times +I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I +stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten +a visa that I thought--it was just a thought--that maybe he was going +over under the auspices of the State Department--as a student or +something. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. From that, they got that he was a secret agent for the---- + +If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the +weekend. I had to get them to retract--according to the Associated +Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to +my house over the weekend and interviewed me--and I was on my way to +Washington Monday! + +Mr. JENNER. You mean, this past weekend? + +Mrs. BATES. Yes; The Star Telegram called me Monday---- + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BATES. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you +are talking about." + +And they said, "Well, somebody has just jumped the gun." + +And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true. +And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people." + +Mr. JENNER. I think some one of the young men around here told me +that--but I put no stock in it, so---- + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a +telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody +could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well, +they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the +press. + +Mr. JENNER. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit +it one out of three times. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said +that I had gotten the letter--that they understood I had gotten the +letter and I would be called as a witness--and that was it. + +I told them--I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's +not true--and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything +like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were +putting all kinds of words in my mouth. + +Mr. JENNER. They hadn't talked to you at all? + +Mrs. BATES. Who? + +Mr. JENNER. The newspaper people over this weekend? + +Mrs. BATES. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill +with bursitis. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, you were? + +Mrs. BATES. I've got it right now. It's about to drive me crazy. + +Mr. JENNER. That's pretty bad stuff. + +Mrs. BATES. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean, +that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and +the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the +morning--"Mrs. Bates, can't you add something?"--"Can't you remember +something else?"--"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock +answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth." + +Mr. JENNER. That's right. + +Mrs. BATES. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I +could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And +that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"--you can't +elaborate on the truth. + +Mr. JENNER. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you +think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked +you--insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned? + +Mrs. BATES. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have +to keep from giving impressions I've got now. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have to---- + +Mrs. BATES. I mean, disassociate the past and the present. I've got to. + +Mr. JENNER. That's right. + +Mrs. BATES. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I +have read--since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or +things like that. I don't believe in it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was +changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during +which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred +during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I +have failed to bring out--that's pertinent here? + +Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit +talking when she was changing the tape--except for a cigarette, or +something like that. + +I wish I could help you more. + +Mr. JENNER. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this +great mystery. + +Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your +deposition when it's been transcribed. + +Mrs. BATES. May I have a copy? + +Mr. JENNER. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to +make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have +the right to waive these privileges if you see fit. + +If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think, +be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you +will call in, if I'm not in--we expect to be here--but if I'm not in, +talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders. + +Mrs. BATES. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get +a'hold of Agent Howard? + +Mr. JENNER. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our +possession. + +Mrs. BATES. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the +one that brought me over and he's waiting for me. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, he is? + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, when you are driving back with Agent Howard---- + +Mrs. BATES. I'll tell him. + +Mr. JENNER. You tell Agent Howard to let you know when it is ready. + +Mrs. BATES. Okay. Because I don't have a car. + +Mr. JENNER. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I +probably won't think about it. + +Mrs. BATES. Would there be a possibility of having a copy of it? + +Mr. JENNER. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a +copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular +rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your +privilege. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom--he's a very prominent lawyer +over there--and he said he wanted a copy of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If +you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one. + +Mrs. BATES. Uh-uh. Well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy +to anybody--other than yourself. + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; of my deposition, you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement +with the reporter. + +Mrs. BATES. I see what you mean. + +Mr. JENNER. But, you may not do so for somebody else. + +Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; but I mean I want it for my files up at the office. + +Mr. JENNER. And thank you for your time and your cooperation. + +Mrs. BATES. Well, I figured it might help. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MAX E. CLARK + +The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I +will place you under oath. + +(Complying.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mr. CLARK. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized +to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I +understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I +would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those +documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the +taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with +that letter, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARK. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, +your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited +contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called +Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to +some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De +Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, please? + +Mr. CLARK. Max E. Clark. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are an attorney? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A member of the Bar of Texas? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Any other State? + +Mr. CLARK. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and +American Bar Association. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain your offices in Fort Worth, is that +correct? + +Mr. CLARK. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your home address? + +Mr. CLARK. 4312 Selkirk Drive West. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a member of the bar? + +Mr. CLARK. Since 1939--now I have to stop and think---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a +native-born American, Mr. Clark? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Texas? + +Mr. CLARK. No, I was born in Indiana. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas, approximately? + +Mr. CLARK. In 1927. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state for us briefly your educational +background? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth, +graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the +University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of +Texas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her +parents were born in Russia, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARK. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her +mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia +but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England +because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of +Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up +to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met +him, approximately when? + +Mr. CLARK. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the +newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to +Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed +it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone +call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she +spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking +Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she +said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I +was at my office and we would either call--or we would call him that +weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday +following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl +spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well +call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe +is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald +and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our +house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient +for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid +no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did +he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter? + +Mr. CLARK. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she +would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the +offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living. +If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done +enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in +France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this +operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I +have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that. +When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of +September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact +with--there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth +that they communicate quite freely back and forth--stated that they had +met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time +and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to +Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this? + +Mr. CLARK. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've +forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife +was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that +the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met +this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and +she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did +not see him and then we had no further contact with them or even knew +about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this +Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live +with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and +was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the +child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and +went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't +know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it +was not going very well, their marriage, and so---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena +Hall; do you remember? + +Mr. CLARK. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know. +I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an +automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the +hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the +hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the +baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were they in the car at all? + +Mr. CLARK. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty +badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena +Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and +took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given +sedatives and--Elena Hall--and I don't know whether she knew any more +about it. I did not see her that night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina see Elena Hall that night? + +Mr. CLARK. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the +hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this +Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during--from that period while Elena +was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and +buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she +could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get +food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her +to the grocery or take her food. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but +before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said +Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas +Employment Commission---- + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you +that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at +the Fort Worth Public Library? + +Mr. CLARK. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. +When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he +had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment +commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my +wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, +we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, +why, my wife--we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not +know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them +before we did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission +that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife? + +Mr. CLARK. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt +had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years +up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works +there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my +sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she +said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression +she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith +at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of +Smith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort +Worth, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment +Commission in Fort Worth? + +Mr. CLARK. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think +this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the +Gregorys first, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an +attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to +put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the +entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia. +I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the +exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife +provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you +have knowledge of those things? + +Mr. CLARK. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in +the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that +time, apparently there was--she bought her some groceries and I do +recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it +would exceed $10 or $15. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did +provide to Marina were these things you described? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she gave Marina any money? + +Mr. CLARK. I am sure she did not give her any cash; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on with your story now, please? + +Mr. CLARK. So, upon--when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would +see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that +week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner +one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment +and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we +would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that +she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into +town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday +afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over +there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the +first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there, +oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then +John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over +seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on +and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't +recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's +home while Elena was in the hospital? + +Mr. CLARK. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was +under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were +quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had +formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know +definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian +at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the impression that there had been +marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife +thought that? + +Mr. CLARK. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina +seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not +seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and +Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a +conversation with Oswald? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say and what did you say? + +Mr. CLARK. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in +Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and +why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at +great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point +with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald +the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his +opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, +"You know who I am?" when he would meet someone for the first time, so +he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked +him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he +had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he +was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines +and he would go to Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in +the Marines? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian +language while in the Marines? + +Mr. CLARK. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to +speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned +a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite +awhile before he left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or +whether this was private effort? + +Mr. CLARK. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or +less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the +Marines that he went--I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get +to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to +get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some +kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his +passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, +and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and +told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his +passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they +told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as +a Russian citizen? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a +length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured +a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said +because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment +with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little +better apartment than the normal working person there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he was sent to work? + +Mr. CLARK. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't +remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever +Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with +the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become +a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave +him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact +they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet +metal worker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. CLARK. I asked him what it was like working there and he said +the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps. +He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to +corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their +jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if +he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder +and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and +that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you +could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do +each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless +you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he +didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city--I +said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. +He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to +live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could +live and they assigned you an apartment and it might take 5 years +to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the +managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they +could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their +vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone +got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your +transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place +of employment down to the Black Sea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. CLARK. He said he was limited because he did not have the money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? + +Mr. CLARK. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying +that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had +your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main +things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, +shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he received any income from any +source other than his job? + +Mr. CLARK. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother +to get money to come back to the States. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention receiving money from the Red Cross? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to +Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning +to the United States? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to +Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that +she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and +walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't +pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for +walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go +to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work +up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she +was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the +child but by putting in his application to return to the United States +somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his +permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never +returned to work after the birth of the child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high +cost of transportation? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article +recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures +in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked +him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera +in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you +go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't +afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the +transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said, +"Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but +only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down +there." He was quite unhappy about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath +while most of the other apartments had to share the bath? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said +most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor +have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, +would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the +hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share +that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be +a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those +apartments was his had a wash basin and private stove in there, small +apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to +use the communal kitchen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after +the baby was born? + +Mr. CLARK. That's what he indicated to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were +allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a +child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which +they were not required to work but other than that they worked the +whole time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the child when they went back to work? + +Mr. CLARK. He said they take it to special places that elderly +women--they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of +a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at +the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he +think this was a good thing or bad thing? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, he didn't seem quite--he just took it as a matter of +course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to +make on that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave +on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr. +Madland. Do you remember that? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This report indicates that you told them at that time +that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back +to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a +government nursery. + +Mr. CLARK. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when +the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5 +months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl +might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work +they were placed in a nursery. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition +with the particular case of the Oswalds. + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he +met and subsequently married his wife, Marina? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she +told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was +working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too +much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one +evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact +for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he +met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a +short time, they got married. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing +permission to marry her? + +Mr. CLARK. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission +to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a +flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late +to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush +to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be +hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and +arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual +to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she +started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your +friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American +and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it +couldn't be any worse." + +Mr. LIEBELER. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse +than the Soviet Union? + +Mr. CLARK. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite +happy to get out of there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the +reasons why she married Oswald? + +Mr. CLARK. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new +and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was--seemed +to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the +Soviet Union and return to the United States? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind +that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he +was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true +Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a +democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt +there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead +or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was +to leave so he made application to leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make +his mark" or is that just an expression of yours? + +Mr. CLARK. That is my expression but my general impression was he +wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life +ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea +that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what +particular circumstances he was in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the +fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the +impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this +fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I +am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what +you just spoke of? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted +to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he called attention to that fact to make himself +stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to +peoples' attention? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to +think it made him somebody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other examples of behavior on +Oswald's part? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't--he was +completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet +metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine +Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that +he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment +than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few +accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he +read very much and how much he had read. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mr. CLARK. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything +he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was +much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was +interested in sports and he wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or +Marxist organizations? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of +organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in +Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and +why he decided to come back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining +permission to return to the United States? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and +Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked +him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I +made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I +wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he +said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was +unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is +what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at +the right time or hadn't approached the right person." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or +Marina any difficulty about them returning? + +Mr. CLARK. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not +renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in +your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did +turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did +not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back", +he said "They couldn't keep me out." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing +of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him +a citizen? + +Mr. CLARK. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused +to permit him to return? + +Mr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department +or Embassy or Moscow? + +Mr. CLARK. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He +just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an +arrogant-talking person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention specifically any government official, +President Kennedy, Governor Connally? + +Mr. CLARK. No one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his service in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine +Corps. He didn't like any part of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of +life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. CLARK. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet +Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether +they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be +five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put +you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one +place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He +said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of +places to live and assignment of apartments." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable +discharge from the Marine Corps? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about it at that time? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mr. CLARK. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone +that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable +discharge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the +so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise +with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald; +whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have +anything to do with him? + +Mr. CLARK. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not +they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked +me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he +is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's +having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her, +she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her +because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and +they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and +kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her. +I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I +said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that +when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is +watching his movements or I would be very much surprised." + +Mr. LIEBELER. If they didn't---- + +Mr. CLARK. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly +where he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is +contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would +keep a record." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI? + +Mr. CLARK. Not before this happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI? + +Mr. CLARK. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in +security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became +acquainted with Earl Haley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of +this sort with De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I +don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, +I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De +Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I +received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know +him quite well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after +the assassination? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the +assassination? + +Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald +did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had +written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. +Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she +was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow +about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way? + +Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him +and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that +Oswald had done it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters? + +Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. +I know I got the last one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with +you, of course? + +Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go +back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would +appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I +will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters +and may want to make them part of this record. + +Mr. CLARK. Sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters +anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the +assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not +think Oswald was the man who did it? + +Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not +believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. +He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. +He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, +actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an +explorer or pirate or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to +a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told +me that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald +a real lashing about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was? + +Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of +January, sometime in the spring of 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and +Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't +think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and +Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, +the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald +and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I +know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, +the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or +27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Off record discussion.) + +Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party +at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that +took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on +after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort +Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and +quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of +Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him +like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid +another hand on her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party? + +Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I +think it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period +January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti? + +Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime. + +Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to +Pennsylvania or New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe. + +Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 +weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way +through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him +at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month +or maybe more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made +on the life of General Walker? + +Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that? + +Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him +shortly before he left for Haiti. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker +with De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked +politics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in +connection with the Walker attempt at that time? + +Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think +that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our +conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just +someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only +comment we had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty +to the United States? + +Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character +but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion +that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was +just a "patsy" in the thing? + +Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he +really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes +without even thinking; most of the time he does that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that +you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to +whether he was mentally unstable or not? + +Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just +thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or +anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in +the world was out of step but himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him? + +Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt +that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything +because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't +seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was +a completely shiftless individual. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby? + +Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did +not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two? + +Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the +first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some +place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to +Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that +he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have +committed? + +Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President +Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to +call attention to himself? + +Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because +he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or +other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about +Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any +more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you +think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what +you said, go right ahead. + +Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has +been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour +conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to +separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is +extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time +when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was +like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned +with what life was like in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already +testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms? + +Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated +he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't +recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't +interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have +registered on me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in +firearms to you at that time? + +Mr. CLARK. Not at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time? + +Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations +with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations +amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might +have been a Russian agent? + +Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and +Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the +ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and +couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than +those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" +just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. +The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to +the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to +be concerned about it because they felt the American government was +keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. +They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it +did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as +much as the ones that got out recently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based +primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in +getting out of Russia, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had +considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt +probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as +to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because +of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia? + +Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and +Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know +there's several others of the younger group that came over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? + +Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? + +Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know +is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray. + +Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in +Blossom, Tex. + +Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't +recall their name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald +might be an agent of the Soviet Union? + +Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination? + +Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he +got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that +they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by +the FBI? + +Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it? + +Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was +keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off +political issues or anything about the United States. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very +much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE + +The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my +name is Wesley J. Liebeler. + +I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we +would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in +connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, +and anything you might know about the assassination or anything +shedding light on Oswald's motive. + +I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission +has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted +to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint +Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which +you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission +governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony. + +Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked +you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written +notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice +since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go +ahead at this time? + +Mr. BOUHE. I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. + +Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, +or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance +before the Commission? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the +Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the +Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington. + +Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed? + +Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular +job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and +prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the +last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on +my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last +year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. For 9-1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of +a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want +to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the +well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, +but I was MacNaughton's personal employee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, +Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates +is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a +baptismal certificate showing February 11. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United +States. + +Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, +Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called +the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was +working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy. + +It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I +think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia. + +The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent +American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several +cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking +English, was an office boy. + +When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which +is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it +says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of +his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its +efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did +that lead to your coming to the United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors +which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, +including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, +Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my +supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office +closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport +to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river +separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at +night, and it was cold, and got out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen? + +Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the +United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years +for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. +I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did +there, which is not much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe. + +Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French +governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age +of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the +English governess, is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to +the gymnasium, is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, +but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us +Latin and Greek. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas? + +(Mr. Jenner entered the room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are +regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas +and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly +the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, +so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And +particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a +congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us +about that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I +appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I +would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process +of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely +only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married +people, married to Americans, and so on. + +So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have +come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950. + +In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came +to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, +native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian +Empire. + +By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have +been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, +and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and +that was the language. + +It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed +God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps +in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a +10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him. + +So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, +self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their +new homeland. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a +church congregation, is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because +I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but +anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian +language was welcome. + +And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really. + +The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent +well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky. + +Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the +people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the +English language become useful members of the community and become +self-sufficient? + +Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a +job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn +English, because I have the great reliance on that. + +Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn +English? All I want to do is get a job." + +Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, +too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or +remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, +taking people by the hand and sticking them there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if +my information is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples? + +Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a +daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. +Mamantov? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere +around that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event. + +Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory +and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, +1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and +Mrs. Peter P. Gregory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son +of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of +Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was +invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not +come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. It was that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. Of course. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at +the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to +his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred +percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library +where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a +free class of the Russian language. + +Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland +Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he +told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they +exchanged a few talks. + +Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's +office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if +I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to +evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. +Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the +assassination? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the +testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth. + +Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 +bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the +book. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed +help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is +that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald +with his book? + +Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee +Oswald and his wife, Marina? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what +was said at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the +ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject +in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. +Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, +Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg. + +This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, +for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your +hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is +still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in +existence, or the herring fish market still smells. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that +time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album +of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book +Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. +Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, +and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the +last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I +was interested in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps? + +Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I +asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any +exchange of pleasantries on that subject. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad +and moved to Minsk? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other +time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. +Petersburg to Minsk? + +Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet +Union? + +Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit +your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back +over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as +to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your +discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we +will go back and pick up the other times when you met him. + +Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed +with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize +him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my +conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against +society. + +Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came +into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, +because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the +Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He +goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He +doesn't like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he +didn't like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football? + +Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned +from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald. + +Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job +that he had while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly +I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't +remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal +factory. + +But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic +aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet +Union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 +rubles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had +while he was in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked +him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?" + +Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent. + +I said, "What did you get as rent?" + +"Well, it was an old factory building." + +I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a +flimsy partition. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived? + +Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have +quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, +or did he appear to have better quarters? + +Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 +rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he +comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots +which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots? + +Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were +famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all +leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so +on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it +looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even +he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost? + +Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to +that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go +through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on? + +Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk +about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of +his rare occasions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter +Gregory? + +Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you +got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is +in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?" + +And that figure I remember distinctly. + +In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost +him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to +mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he +was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something +because there was not enough money left to buy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke +was all the money he received while he was in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must +have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that +correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, +"90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?" + +No answer. + +But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I +couldn't cross-examine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, +is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For +instance, he had a portable radio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone +and records. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost? + +Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly +don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it +and he said it is a most awful construction. + +But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought +there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing +qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. +And what she was earning, I do not know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting +club in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or +hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's +work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck." + +And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because +he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of +"duckys-duckys". + +Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to +describe duck? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in +Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun? + +Mr. BOUHE. There? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in +connection with his hunting trips? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his +trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can +remember? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting? + +Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no +reason to suspect his lying. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when +he was in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the +Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of +the Soviet Government? + +Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much +as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or +heard him volunteer any such thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I +thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to +be brought up in the United States." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why +he wanted to come back to the United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the +fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the +Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was +hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America. + +And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third +hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald +just to get out of the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? + +Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the +reasons why Marina married Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. Only after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina +wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she +married Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one +of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like +to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina +liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and +this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just +itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me +if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet +Union while he was there? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or +three different occasions from Minsk? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of +them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy +in Moscow at some period of time to return. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training +while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or +received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that +subject. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he +was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time +to time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that +language? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression? + +Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not +perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in +the Soviet Union, approximately? + +Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the +Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald +before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort +Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be +about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that +period of time? Would you say it was good? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language, +considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I +would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any +special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet +Union? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good +old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke +French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some +from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn +the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his +language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or +from factory workers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the +Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her +education? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good +command of the language? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I +complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met +here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a +very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect. + +And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly +grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language. + +And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what +period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school +for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas +man--perhaps Bryn Mawr. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the +name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a +young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls. + +And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced +her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or +does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. +What is in her soul, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of +Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about +that. + +Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the +judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the +assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments +or amplified them after the event of the assassination. + +But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as +you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963. + +Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about +December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since. + +It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without +investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who +they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at +the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, +and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a +great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism. + +Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have +to do whatever she could to get out. + +Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is +of the old school, but I don't know. + +And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which +presented itself in Minsk. + +So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal +was or is, I cannot guess even now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a +product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed +from her? + +Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific +words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet +regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, +which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her. + +Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something +about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your +opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination +occurred? + +Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of +exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events +without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed +in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is +good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I +do not volunteer as an expert. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, +as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of +marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's +confidence about those matters? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not I. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with +Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent? + +Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long +sessions together, just girls. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna +Meller and Anna Ray. + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I +saw or heard that she had a black eye. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One +Saturday several of us arrived at their house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about +anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" +Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with +Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or +something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see +Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's +party? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in +the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called +at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and +said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper +and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?" + +Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a +plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say +but "come over." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a +week? + +Mr. BOUHE. About a week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna +Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday +or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a +very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband, +Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum +Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring +her over for a week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it +is November? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs. +Ford. + +Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double +check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of +Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can +testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that +correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to +your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October +7, 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that +conversation? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or +first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were +at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a +Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs. +Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember +distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended, +wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another +job existed. + +The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in +Fort Worth? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did +say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian +lady--said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with +the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job." + +For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7. +That would be my guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation +with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And +to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess. +And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment +Commission, which he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there? + +Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there--not I, because I +didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs. +Cunningham? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you? + +Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph. D., a very kind man--he +said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little +baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their +feet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job +in Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected +nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet +economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those +were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a +$1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"--those were my +very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable +any place." + +And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you. + +Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is +a standard statement I would ask anybody. + +And for 2 or 3--or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 +o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. +Bye." + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on +the telephone? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where---- + +Mr. BOUHE. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was +some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't +know what that means. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. BOUHE. YMCA on Ervay Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long he lived there? + +Mr. BOUHE. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from +about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a +Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know +myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, +but that I do know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the +YMCA? + +Mr. BOUHE. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, +"Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of +the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the +Carlton boarding house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he +had not lived there? + +Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed +that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the +name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a +bum steer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived +after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately +lived. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth? + +Mr. BOUHE. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that +he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others +because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to +him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. +Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the +FBI agent told me they proved that, or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the Oswald apartment at Elsbeth Street? + +Mr. BOUHE. I never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit their apartment at No. 215 Neely +Street? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never even knew where it was. Never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28, +1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the +Ford party. + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1 to December 28? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have +run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't +swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my +part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during that period of time, however? + +Mr. BOUHE. Once or twice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna +Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of +1962, would it not? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; that is right. That is right. + +Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I +told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had +lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not, +that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with +Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It must have been November because your recollection is +she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. That is a slip of the tongue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during the month of November 1962? + +Mr. BOUHE. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time +except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her +once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when +she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't around at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of +Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. +Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the +record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina +Oswald. + +Mr. BOUHE. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from +my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person +of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such. + +She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that +age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious +about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size +you would not think she would. + +And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald, +coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she +could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to +America." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that +you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great +actress. + +Mr. BOUHE. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at +this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. BOUHE. Maybe she is a superagent of some organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time +of the assassination? + +Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not. Never entered into my head. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it has entered into your head since the +assassination, is that correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, after that, you think of anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you +observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have +conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina +left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is +almost incredible. + +American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it +took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I +think, both of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Asked who? + +Mr. BOUHE. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual +that they let you out. How did you do it?" + +It was a completely innocent question at that time. + +"Well, we just went to the right office." + +And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to +that effect in Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of +yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent +of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time +prior to the assassination. + +Mr. BOUHE. The majority of our Russian background colony having +suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10 +and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this +country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes +from Russia. + +Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a +Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the +man came to the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to +return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that +application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only +paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some +investigation. + +Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United +States, whether it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned +with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good +little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States. +That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some +odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money. + +At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to +dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney +friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am +sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of +days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words +to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, +apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think +these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to +you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions, +yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't +remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it +was mentioned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember specifically who mentioned it? + +Mr. BOUHE. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't. +And I am not hiding anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan +P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were +there, were they not? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right; uninvited. + +Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of +whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent? + +Mr. BOUHE. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden +toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his +wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp +among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain +say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back +home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my +conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who +said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of +that conversation. + +At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple +of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except +maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if +I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her. + +Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so +to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, +apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before. + +Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you +know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. +Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came +finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. +"Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the +party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an +agent of the U.S.S.R.? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald +spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say +clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that man? + +Mr. BOUHE. Lev Aronson, chief first cello, Dallas Symphony Orchestra. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought +Oswald was an idiot? + +Mr. BOUHE. I am not a buddy-buddy of his. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't hear why Aronson thought Oswald was an +idiot? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at +the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at +that party? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not with Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of +people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day +after? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a +long time and I am almost sure I must have been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the +question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during +that period of time, was there not? + +Mr. BOUHE. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about +Oswald being a Russian agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any time during the period December 28 for the next +few days? + +Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned, +well, whether others talked, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear anybody talking about it? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not to my hearing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that Oswald was essentially a +mental case? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental +case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember using those words at any time during the +period December 28 and the few days following that day? + +Mr. BOUHE. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word +when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not +remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some +school and study to attempt to improve his ability? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? + +Mr. BOUHE. That was most probably the first week of October when he +moved here, October 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said to you in response? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. "What kind of school do they have?" + +And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board +of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their +skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to +make lampshades." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever went to Crozier Tech? + +Mr. BOUHE. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service +agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have +gone to, and I said we have only one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was Crozier Tech? + +Mr. BOUHE. That is called Dallas Evening Public School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or +magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment? + +Mr. BOUHE. American or Russian? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of any nature. + +Mr. BOUHE. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or +not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do +not know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you +was "Agitator" one of them? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never saw. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about "Crocodile"? + +Mr. BOUHE. Unfortunately; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any others? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I think it is called "O-g-o-n-e-k." Means, "little +fire." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you +saw in Oswald's possession? + +Mr. BOUHE. Something about the sports, because you always could see a +Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a +periodical called "The Worker"? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never saw a copy in the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about "The Militant"? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never saw any such article, magazine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on +political subjects in Oswald's home? + +Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. BOUHE. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes +Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly +Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not +remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped +over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw +the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these +books were in his apartment? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you about them? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics with Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. American politics? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his +attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government? + +Mr. BOUHE. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man. +I did not touch any of these subjects. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or +three times that you saw him? + +Mr. BOUHE. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I +saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet +Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and +things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the +economic system of the U.S.S.R.? + +Mr. BOUHE. I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And how did you know he was stuck on it? + +Mr. BOUHE. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, +"Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether +it is free rent or free medical care. + +For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some +place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out +but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." +Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to +Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. Not during the time I knew him; positively not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought +Russia was so good, why didn't he go back? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; I didn't, because I think he began to hate me very early. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. BOUHE. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have +enough to live nicely and help others if I wish. + +The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the +latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to +the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of +mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal +and if I know around the corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the +floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good. + +So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw +the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put +them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the +down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that +there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the +floor and all that. + +I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, +lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile +assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in +rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will +see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And +I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner +by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift +yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the +opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them." + +Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines, +no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia. +He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he +went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job +and they said what can you do--nothing. Where did you work last--Minsk. +Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So +this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in +this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see +it. + +When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because +they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, +and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I +did exactly that, as I saw it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate your efforts? + +Mr. BOUHE. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third +visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to +Marina and such--I even brought two shirts for him--not new, used, +and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his +displeasure over me. + +He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were +not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them +3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he +folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any." + +Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others +brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox +was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the +groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this +is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is +junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy groceries for the Oswalds at any time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how much? + +Mr. BOUHE. Ten dollars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the +Oswalds? + +Mr. BOUHE. $75. You can make a list, if you wish, because I want to +tell you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. BOUHE. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus +fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday. + +I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here +and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he +didn't give me any change. I remember that. + +Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid. +I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another +lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings, +we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her +measure moccasins without stockings. + +I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to +take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas +where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford +to go to the regular dentist. + +And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of +time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I +think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if De Mohrenschildt spent any money on +Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. I have no idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about any others, as far as you know? + +Mr. BOUHE. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in +clothes, used, not new, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who else gave such things to the Oswalds? + +Mr. BOUHE. Through me, I collected--Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs. +Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used +clothes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to +Dallas, did it? + +Mr. BOUHE. The clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the +dentist, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say the dental work was done after Oswald moved to +Dallas? + +Mr. BOUHE. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort +Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Until November 2d? + +Mr. BOUHE. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came, +I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth +rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, +and here those student guys just love to pull. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving +the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for +them? + +Mr. BOUHE. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I +don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed +there in October? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other financial contribution that +might have been made to the Oswalds during this period? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, let's say $20. I would say that is all, $75, more or +less. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his service in the +Marine Corps? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mr. BOUHE. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of +application blanks some place and you have to say about your military +service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would +say: "Put down honorable." + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the entire extent of your discussion? + +Mr. BOUHE. Right. He would freeze up like a clam. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss anything about Cuba with you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his +possession? + +Mr. BOUHE. Do not recall having seen anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not +Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he +get along with the Russian people? + +Mr. BOUHE. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful. +Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him. +I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something +like that." + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Marina said? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was her reaction to him when she met him in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. I remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that? + +Mr. BOUHE. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether +they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was +not a very talkative person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have the impression that as a general manner he was +not a popular person when he was in Russia? + +Mr. BOUHE. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind +of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with +whom he would be friendly. I could not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind? + +Mr. BOUHE. He changed so much, from an American, to Russia, and back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never seemed to be satisfied with anything? + +Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. Besides, not satisfied with any place. That is +the point. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S. +Government for delaying his return to the United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. In a casual remark, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. BOUHE. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get +on the horse." + +Mr. LIEBELER. The United States? + +Mr. BOUHE. "Damn them, I don't know why it took them so long." + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is all he said? + +Mr. BOUHE. All I can remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual +in the Government? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk +politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and +useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any +hostility against anybody in the Government, which I didn't hear +myself, I would say Governor Connally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? + +Mr. BOUHE. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in +Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where, +in the paper here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that +he wrote a letter to Governor Connally? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that only after reading it in the paper? + +Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would +say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he +had any hostility toward any individual in the Government? + +Mr. BOUHE. You mean as of the end of December, 1962? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading +this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the +letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the +time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the +injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the +period "as soon as possible." + +Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which +did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine +story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to +correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I +would say that it looks like a threat. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure +with Governor Connally? + +Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If he had any prior to the assassination? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand English when you first met her? + +Mr. BOUHE. She said no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that she could +understand English? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God, +you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or +something like that. + +"Oh, yes. I know I love you. Come kiss me quick, or something like +that." + +But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of +her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Gregory? + +Mr. BOUHE. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few +words in English." + +"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something +like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it did not appear to you that she understood English? + +Mr. BOUHE. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I +have talked with you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that you tried to teach her English? + +Mr. BOUHE. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad +provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in +the family there sometime. + +And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I +tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave +girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet +before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English." + +"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, +he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to +him. This is positively so." + +Well, I said, "Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?" + +"Well," she said, "let's try". + +Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University +of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home +from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some +Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in +English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that +system was to be short-lived. + +Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for +it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing +Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and +generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I +understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the +American society. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the +English language? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have +perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper +I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big +letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I +live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on +Wednesday. This is a tropical climate." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You sent those to Marina and asked her to study them? + +Mr. BOUHE. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the +dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which +she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were +living in Fort Worth at that time? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and +maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's. +I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, +is that right? + +Mr. BOUHE. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment, +she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and +I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see +what it should have been. + +And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because +a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said, +"Please take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live +in Fort Worth.'" + +Mr. LIEBELER. He had those lessons that you had sent to Marina? + +Mr. BOUHE. I don't know what he had. All I could hear was my own words, +because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostat +of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be a good student of English; is that +correct? + +Mr. BOUHE. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each. +She made a good headway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever come to your house to study Russian? + +Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to +study English? + +Mr. BOUHE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In my previous question I meant English, to study at your +house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the +baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only time they were in your house? + +Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the +diaper---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina was never in your house in the absence of Lee +Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and +made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else +being there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that +regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina +Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am +an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his +smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that +I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was +jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody +else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" "Why I gave you $2 last +week; $2 you got." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the +attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have +given to Marina? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do not know about that? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably I +showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of +any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way? + +Mr. BOUHE. I don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard it from anybody else? + +Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear, and I am 60. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone +else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect? + +Mr. BOUHE. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer, +"Well, Lee is jealous of you." + +Mr. LIEBELER. She said that about you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because I bought groceries. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the +end of the fourth lesson? + +Mr. BOUHE. Sir, I wish I knew. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the answer to that question? + +Mr. BOUHE. Just a moment. I do not know the answer to that question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been +charged with the assassination of the President? + +Mr. BOUHE. You can say that again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why were you surprised? + +Mr. BOUHE. Because I happened to know the guy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was capable of doing such a +thing? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never up to that moment. Did not enter my mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that +respect? + +Mr. BOUHE. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an +individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place +under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist +thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to +whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that +he was dangerous in any respect? + +Mr. BOUHE. He liked to get into a fight, I heard and get beaten up, I +heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes; +he is a tough guy but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as assassinating the President or shooting +somebody, that's never occurred to you? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack +Ruby? + +Mr. BOUHE. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could +not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I +suspect yes--no, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you testified before that you knew George De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was a friend of Oswald's; was he not? + +Mr. BOUHE. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph. D., comes from an excellent +family back in the old country, married the right people, knows +everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here +with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you +invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing +suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted. + +When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October +or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I +just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble." + +By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of +that sort of stuff. + +George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you +are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg, +then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people." + +"All right, George, you carry the ball." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his +society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little +hoopla circus. + +So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one +day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that +period, that is almost an exaggeration. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and +attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described? + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised +any particular influence over Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and +the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to +tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday, +or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care--De +Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald would do that? + +Mr. BOUHE. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would +say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't +even say it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man, +and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs. +Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here. +I will ask you if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission +Exhibits 451, 453-456, WJL.] + +First of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the +same man? + +Mr. BOUHE. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember +seeing that man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. BOUHE. I would say no. Am I wrong? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think +that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. +I have no more questions that I want to ask, do you have anything else +that you think we ought to know before we finish? + +Let me ask you one more question. Did Oswald drink, as far as you know? + +Mr. BOUHE. Drink? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BOUHE. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple +of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass, +but do not know if it was ginger ale. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a strong drinker? + +Mr. BOUHE. Never saw or heard or smelled. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our +attention that you think would help us in this matter? + +Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3 +days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything +else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in +touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at +that time. + +Mr. BOUHE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that occurs to you now? + +Mr. BOUHE. I cannot think of anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S. +attorney's office and we will make arrangements. + +Mr. BOUHE. Is that Mr. Sanders? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BOUHE. I talked incessantly today. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he +can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no +further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this +time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is +anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the +court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for +the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In +other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple +of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that +everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while +the reporter was writing? + +Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must +say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I +cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and +will think of something, so don't hold it against me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You will think of something that we have not discussed? + +Mr. BOUHE. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret +Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia, +and I--by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately +appear in the paper? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; not as far as we know. You don't want any publicity? + +Mr. BOUHE. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am +fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; go ahead. + +Mr. BOUHE. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings +going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being +captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were +holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you +can see the---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in +connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER + +The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before +we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your +information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have +been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission +pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions +of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution +of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. +Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week +and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of +the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of +procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of +those documents with that letter? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. +Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as +a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in +October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have +concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the +assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right +hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are +about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mrs. MELLER. Anna N. Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Meller? + +Mrs. MELLER. 5930-1/2 LaVista Drive, Dallas 6. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mrs. MELLER. I was born in Russia in 1917. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In what town in Russia were you born? + +Mrs. MELLER. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade +like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Russia is that in? + +Mrs. MELLER. It's first town in Russia, town after Ukraine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would be in southern Russia then? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts +Russia after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ukraine? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, after Ukraine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now an American citizen? + +Mrs. MELLER. I am an American citizen since 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to the United States? + +Mrs. MELLER. As a refugee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When? + +Mrs. MELLER. In January 11, 1952. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Russia? + +Mrs. MELLER. I left Russia around 1943. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In 1943? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You left Russia at the time the German Army retreated? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, the corps of Germans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to +Germany? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Russia did you go to Germany? + +Mrs. MELLER. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then +from Germany to United States. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Meller with you at that time? + +Mrs. MELLER. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short +before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the +dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met, +1946, I met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Off record comment.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by +the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free +will and go to Germany? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; I was taken by the Germans from Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with +the retreat of the German Army? + +Mrs. MELLER. Part of the retreat. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did the Germans take you from Russia; do you know? + +Mrs. MELLER. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on +the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is +inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself +as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and +all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and +worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger +because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital +was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger. +That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and +Germany. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you +wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct? + +Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia +in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those +regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would +raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we +could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of +something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English, Mrs. Meller? + +Mrs. MELLER. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to +United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit +more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good +vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I +forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the +United States? + +Mrs. MELLER. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names +they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in +north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several +go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about +Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but +never heard Dallas, and we---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to Dallas? + +Mrs. MELLER. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years +here and love it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you work now, Mrs. Meller? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, I work 11 years for Dallas Power & Light Co. as +draftsman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As a draftsman? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have training in draftsmanship work? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be +architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all +examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my +diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my +dentistry examination but I get my diploma. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union +before you left? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I got my document but without final examination +of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in +drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or +architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested +in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it +and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't +possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education, +it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something +and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting +dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working +at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I +get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying. +When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay +very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and +doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because +modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I +went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course +in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States. +Since that time I love it and my job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does your husband work also? + +Mrs. MELLER. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11 +years or 12. I will say 12 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your husband also from Russia originally? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two +universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical +education. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and +his wife, Marina? + +Mrs. MELLER. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August +in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory--I, my +husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to +make something--we don't have a house here. We don't have car here. +We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place. +When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe +picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr. +Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at the time? + +Mrs. MELLER. I think it was wife from Peter Gregory, Mr. Gregory, his +son---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Paul Gregory? + +Mrs. MELLER. Paul Gregory, myself, and George Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening? + +Mrs. MELLER. It was a dinner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the evening? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the +conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at +which you met the Oswalds? + +Mrs. MELLER. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia +not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak +word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old, +baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just +were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and +if you had a job--Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee +Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not +speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against +United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes, +really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we +met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy +going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find +out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and +I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't +remember exactly or he was looking for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you carry on the conversation in English or in +Russian? + +Mrs. MELLER. In Russian more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was +not able to speak English? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word; +however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was his Russian grammatically correct? + +Mrs. MELLER. Pretty correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he learned Russian? + +Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody +asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took +English in school and studied very much at home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Russian you mean. + +Mrs. MELLER. Russian in school and studied at home very much with +himself as Marina said later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his command of the Russian language +was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had +spent in Russia? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely better than I would expect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in +Russia to learn Russian? + +Mrs. MELLER. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy +to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be +more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something, +he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said your first impression just was he appeared +mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you +came to that conclusion? + +Mrs. MELLER. Later on, when I saw him--I saw him two times or three +in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people +tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not +want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against +everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a +single word. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he did not want her to learn English? + +Mrs. MELLER. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to +speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to +Russia in the first place? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw +Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions +about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever +told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did +you next see Oswald? + +Mrs. MELLER. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina +Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, +probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work +somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably +close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in +work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought--always for +Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some +clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was +sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I +never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. +However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed +for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back +home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what +you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I +notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature +about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald? + +Mrs. MELLER. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something +like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books +from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was +real upset. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time that you saw him? + +Mrs. MELLER. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her +house. No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to +Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue +spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy +little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She +said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door +and hit my head here" and it was very blue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Around her eye? + +Mrs. MELLER. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was +very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt +always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not +very--didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went; +it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at +Peter Gregory's? + +Mrs. MELLER. At Gregory's and then one time at home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At your home? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; at their home where they lived, Marina and Oswald on +Mercedes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth; and that is the only place you ever saw +him? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George +Bouhe. We were always together--group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and +not going one person? + +Mrs. MELLER. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina +and Oswald somebody raise the question--I tried to remember who but I +couldn't--I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know, +George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said, +I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I +thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help +them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been +in the Soviet Union for a while? + +Mrs. MELLER. We could not understand why he stayed there and come back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the +Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him? + +Mrs. MELLER. When somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go +to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed +to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let +him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in +my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like +this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then, +I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee +Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina +mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was his job in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort +Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was +looking for a job in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort +Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the +Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately, +and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other +things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends? + +Mrs. MELLER. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked +three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10 +to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three +pairs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For Marina? + +Mrs. MELLER. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had +sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake +of woman with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about +anything. We never saw he will be really---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Responsible? + +Mrs. MELLER. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that +feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain +trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much +for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought +up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw +Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like +husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward +Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange +but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see Lee Harvey buying +anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands, +baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to +house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about +$18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she +would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you, +she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young +mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was +wondering; baby was first. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries +for them? + +Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably +two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I +think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar +with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and +something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for +the child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the +baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears, +couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly +more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee +Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to +help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all +that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he go with Mr. Bouhe to get the playpen? + +Mrs. MELLER. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it +was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much +and I could not talk much to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar +because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you +understand that perhaps he had good reasons? + +Mrs. MELLER. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a +person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people. +He could not talk like--I see first time and anyway, to explain as much +as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had +always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very--not willing +to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the +milk for baby--"We don't need anything." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job +in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; no idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that +the United States had made to him? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and +that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American +Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was +making payments to the American Government? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he +mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think +it was not much at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just +confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her +clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing? + +Mrs. MELLER. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and +I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much +as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he--we +haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he +never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. If you are +in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to +help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who gave you the $5.00 to give to Marina? + +Mrs. MELLER. $5.00--my goodness! If I could remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it +from being counted twice. + +Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, I think it was Mrs. Steed---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you spell that? + +Mrs. MELLER. Steed [spelling], from oilman, wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina at any time that you knew +them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job Oswald had +while he was in Russia? + +Mrs. MELLER. Oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but, +something--how to explain--something that you have with machinery. I +mean something to fix like hard--just like hardware store, something +with those things. I think it was a dirty job. Not exactly locks but +some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, I think is +kind of work he did but I am very sorry I never was listening real good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid at the job? + +Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall; I just did not pay much attention. I know +he was having a pretty good room there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mrs. MELLER. That he was having good room and something--maybe I am not +right, sir, I am afraid to say, like $80 month. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Eighty rubles? + +Mrs. MELLER. Eighty rubles a month. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say or indicate he received help from the Red +Cross or any other phase of the Embassy? + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know any money he ever received in Russia +is from his job, is that correct? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I am not clear here because I may have heard +something and never paid much attention. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used +to go on in Russia? + +Mrs. MELLER. Something he said one time that he went with some Russian +boys, probably young people, hunting one time, I think he mentioned and +it was something like duckhunting, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, he said that he only +went on one hunting trip? + +Mrs. MELLER. I mean I heard him saying one time that, just sort +mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere I think as much as I +know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you or did Marina tell you about the +circumstances under which Marina and Lee met and became married in +Russia? + +Mrs. MELLER. Just far away rumors like I cannot imagine because I am +not clear with that. It is so far away and so unclear I am afraid to +let you know but in short, I think Marina said she met him at somewhere +at a dancing place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she had lived in Leningrad for +awhile? + +Mrs. MELLER. I think she was born there and lived some time and then +was in Minsk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved from Leningrad to Minsk? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; never asked much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the +United States? + +Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning +to the United States, that you remember? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; I will not say; it was mentioned Embassy and that +Embassy even decided to help with the money. That was all I think I +remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any dislike toward the State +Department or the Embassy because they delayed his return to the United +States? + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostility toward the U.S. +Government, that you can remember? + +Mrs. MELLER. I will not say. I just do not recall. He never said too +much is what I say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. MELLER. No, never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally? + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time +that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent? + +Mrs. MELLER. Not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in +ways. He was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. You +could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. He will +always say something against--some way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the impression as to whether Oswald was +well liked when he was in Russia or was he unpopular when he was in +Russia, do you know? + +Mrs. MELLER. My personal opinion, this person could never be friendly +with anybody, very friendly, I mean. He was such a person that you +never can come near even if you want to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to +why she married Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question--why she married Lee Oswald? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember what she said but I remember one sentence +which is even caught in my head that she said. She wished all her life +to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's +tired living not like a human living. She wanted to have piece of her +personal life and piece of her room just to her own. I remember her +expressing that very, very deeply. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, +after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that +Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she +wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain +Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call me and say that her +husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the +filling station and said the man--she did not have a penny of money, +and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me +if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I +even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to +Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain +period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 6 weeks, maybe +month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" +She said "In Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came +to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want +to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very much +space." I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help +poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like +that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay +let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said +"Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or +10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse +and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no +coat, no money, nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did +she have bruises? + +Mrs. MELLER. She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you +can see she was shaking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to be bruised? + +Mrs. MELLER. I will not say exactly but she was out of herself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be upset? + +Mrs. MELLER. Nervous, upset and looked like--she did not cry exactly +and at me now but looks like she cried--her eyes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing +about? + +Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not +remember asking really for what or something. I did not ask for +arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. I do +not think I went into detail. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Marina stay with you? + +Mrs. MELLER. Marina stay, I think 1 week, 5 days at my home, something +like Monday until Friday and Friday she went to another family by the +name of Mr. Ford, Mr. and Mrs. Ford. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you any time during that week that she +stayed with you what she and Oswald had been arguing about and what +their difficulties were? + +Mrs. MELLER. No, no; she did not say much. She mention that her husband +could not find proper jobs. They don't want to take him or he could not +find; she did not know herself very much. You can see without speaking +word of English I do not know what he could come home and tell her; I +cannot imagine. She said Lee could not find job and they are in trouble +and she did not say much. By the way, she was so skinny to this time +and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not +feel good. She had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her I +decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take her to the doctor? + +Mrs. MELLER. So, I took her during this week she stay with me. I took +her to the G-y-n by the name Doctor Paul Wolff. + +Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f [spelling]? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, W-o-l-f-f [spelling]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f-f [spelling]. + +Mrs. MELLER. He give her examination and said in my presence, said +she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least 5 pounds +immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and +need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. She had bad +appetite. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you how long she had been living in +Dallas? + +Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember, sir, exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her saying anything about living in the +home of Elena Hall? + +Mrs. MELLER. Elena Hall; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that? + +Mrs. MELLER. That Mrs. Hall was very good to her and she stayed there +probably about 3 weeks if not more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in +Mrs. Hall's home? + +Mrs. MELLER. Can you repeat that question? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had +left Mrs. Hall's home? In other words, I want to know how long she had +been living in Dallas with Oswald. + +Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall her saying. But may I go back? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MELLER. It is time--thank you for remembering, helping me here. +It was the time between Fort Worth and our family and, in other words, +I think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in Fort Worth and +went to Dallas look for job. During this time Marina stay at Mrs. Hall +home for 3 or 4 weeks, if I am correct. It is not easy to remember, +really, and during this time we heard, I think he called on telephone +to us, Lee Harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him +with a job. In all time when we visited them in apartment in Fort +Worth and I heard from Marina that her husband may lose job pretty +soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just +like good soul, I say "You have to come to Dallas which is larger town +and maybe he find job." I did not say personally about George Bouhe +maybe he find job there, just mention in general. So he called and +ask if we can help him and again, as I repeat, for the sake of the +poor woman which could not speak word of English and her little baby, +I asked my husband. I was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job +for Lee Harvey in Dallas. Mr. Meller has a former friend with whom he +was working back at Harris but this time it was not Sanger-Harris. It +was just A. Harris store and he was working with certain Mrs. Helen +Cunningham. Later, Mrs. Cunningham left A. Harris and was working for +employment office in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Texas Employment Commission? + +Mrs. MELLER. Texas Employment Commission; so, I asked him and I said +"Your former friend, Mrs. Helen Cunningham, maybe she can find job for +him. Please ask her." He did not want to do it. He said just because I +ask him and begged him so much he called Mrs. Helen Cunningham; told +her we had a couple which arrived from Russia; she's Russian, and he +is American. They are not very long here and he is looking for job but +he made a note and he said, "Mrs. Cunningham, be careful and check him +because he came from Soviet Union." He said be careful so we would not +have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came +from Soviet Union and I do not know, however, we heard somebody mention +he was checked and Mrs. Cunningham said, "Don't worry, Mr. Meller; we +will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. He +came one time during this period without Marina for half hour to my +house. I give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for +jobs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at that time where he had been looking +for jobs? + +Mrs. MELLER. He will not mention exactly. He was sleeping; I think he +was staying YMCA this time, living there and looking for job. He said +he has little piece of paper and some notices there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Names on them? + +Mrs. MELLER. But he never go into detail, never, never, never. He will +mention but you will never find details out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any other place where Lee Oswald +stayed during this period other than the YMCA? + +Mrs. MELLER. Never hear and when Marina Oswald later called me at +night, I was speechless that she was already in Dallas and we did not +know a word and when she mention name where she--they were living, I +did not have address. I did not know where they were living, how long +they are; they did not say a thing but I took her home, over my house +for 5 days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's? + +Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long she stayed there? + +Mrs. MELLER. I believe 1 week, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she then go to the home of---- + +Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mr. and Mrs. Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? + +Mrs. MELLER. I tried remember first name--Frank Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it Thomas or Frank? + +Mrs. MELLER. Frank Ray; Frank Ray. I think Ray. Now, it was the last +time we saw Marina. By the way, I must apologize--coming back when she +was living at our home, we did not--she was separated with Lee Harvey +to this time. She went out from him. He never call to our home. He +never visited. We were working people. We will leave her with food at +my home and we will come back in the evening. Nobody call; she never +went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if George Bouhe +help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive +either. It was last time when I saw Marina Oswald and her girl who was +about 4 or 6 months, I think. She was not even sitting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember seeing Lee and Marina Oswald at a +party at the Fords? + +Mrs. MELLER. It was after I saw them at my house in December maybe. I +do not recall exactly day, 20 or 22 December; it was party at home of +Mr. and Mrs. Ford. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been the 28th of December, after Christmas? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; it was 28th; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me us about that party, would you, please--who was +there; did Oswald come? + +Mrs. MELLER. Well, I do not know; it was probably over 20 people there +and as I heard, Marina and Oswald were not invited there at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? + +Mrs. MELLER. But were invited certain Mr. and Mrs. De---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. MELLER. De Mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and I heard from +the other people that the De Mohrenschildt's called to Mr. and Mrs. +Ford and asked if he can bring with him people, Marina and Oswald. They +are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he +brought them with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. MELLER. I did not see exactly walking in but I heard then that he +brought them there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald that night at all? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking, +cold, not very talkative. It was a certain Japanese girl, don't know +her name, he was all evening with this girl and Marina was left all +by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally +somebody play with piano, I see her sitting, trying to catch some songs +singing and I saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. I did +not remember seeing her and him together this evening. He was all time +with different girl which we met first time and I do not recognize her +name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen the Japanese girl since? + +Mrs. MELLER. Never saw before or after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how we can get her name? + +Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall name or anything, sir; I am very sorry. I +would like to help you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald that evening? + +Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember anything; my memory--don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald drink at the party at all; did you notice? + +Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember seeing him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever drank very much? + +Mrs. MELLER. Never saw him drink; do not recall. I saw Marina eating +pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. Some our friends notice +and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to +eat. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave the party? + +Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion about Oswald after he left +the party? Did you overhear any conversation about him and Marina? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; do not recall; I heard something from the people +talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my +goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name--Lev +Aronson, and I heard later that he talked to Lee Oswald and says that +he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought that? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; I did not talk to him. I heard that conversation, you +know, going with a group of people and it was just---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a party at your house some time following +the party at the Ford residence? + +Mrs. MELLER. After Ford party? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an open house on the day following? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; you mean 29 of December? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; approximately. + +Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or the next day--within a few days following the Ford +party? + +Mrs. MELLER. I could not recall really, but if I had, I never had +Oswalds over to my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Edward Harris from Georgetown, Tex.? + +Mrs. MELLER. Charles Edward Harris, yes; I met him one time or two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he at the Ford party; do you remember? + +Mrs. MELLER. I do not think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion as far as you can recall either +at the Ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of +time where the question of whether Lee Oswald was a Russian agent was +discussed? + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with anybody? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anybody discuss it? + +Mrs. MELLER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of +the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. MELLER. Could not say; can be but I cannot say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do not remember talking about that? + +Mrs. MELLER. No; we never talked about that; I remember exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us everything that you can remember +about your meetings with Oswald and Marina that you think the +Commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else? + +Mrs. MELLER. I am thinking and seems to be that's all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. MELLER. How long? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MELLER. Oh, I know him about 6 years, probably; met him very +seldom and we were never friends, real close, never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he friendly with Oswald, do you know? + +Mrs. MELLER. Try to help, I think was--try to help as much as we +did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried +to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later +together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Mrs. MELLER. I do not--if I say surprised or was shocked when President +Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I +could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my +vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out +it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of +my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it +could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you. +We could not believe at first at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were very surprised when you heard it was Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. MELLER. We could not believe he will do things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir; three times. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Three times? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir--oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service +another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name +but it was three times together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you +once? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the Dallas police force? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas police officers? + +Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible +for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think +it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her +fault, or what? + +Mrs. MELLER. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not +know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems +to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from +somebody that he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina +told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through +and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home +the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before +he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she +has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the +tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told you that? + +Mrs. MELLER. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do +not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that +something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat +her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at +anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time, +1962? + +Mrs. MELLER. No, never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right? + +Mrs. MELLER. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months +since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it +happened--when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New +Orleans and back to Dallas? + +Mrs. MELLER. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It +was the last time at Ford's family. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can +think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead. + +Mrs. MELLER. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I +did not forget anything. I do not think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I +want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down +and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it +very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you +very much. + +Mrs. MELLER. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL + +The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right +hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? + +Mrs. HALL. I sure do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert +Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission +investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. + +The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from +other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been +granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137. + +It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the +Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two +documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to +the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With that letter were included copies of those documents +referred to, isn't that correct? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you today about your knowledge of +Lee and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of +your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned +from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with +Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at +approximately Easter of 1963? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, will you state your full name for the +record? + +Mrs. HALL. Elena A. Hall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Mr. John R. Hall, isn't that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort +Worth, isn't that right? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born in Iran? In what town? + +Mrs. HALL. Tehran. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mrs. HALL. 1926. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents +were originally from Russia, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did they move to Tehran? + +Mrs. HALL. 1920 or 1921. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia had they lived prior to that time? + +Mrs. HALL. The last in Baku. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your +parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran? + +Mrs. HALL. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father +was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after +he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they eventually move to the United States? + +Mrs. HALL. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit +and went back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are they still living in Tehran? + +Mrs. HALL. No; both are dead. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Both are dead? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the +United States, if you would. + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I +knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and +have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States. + +My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me +that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I +can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to +New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So +he wanted--instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to the United States, Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. HALL. 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1957? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational +background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States? + +Mrs. HALL. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5 +years in Russian school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specialize in any special field during your +education? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a general education? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you married your husband in New York and +subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth---- + +Mrs. HALL. We were married in Fort Worth and I came here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were +first married in 19---- + +Mrs. HALL. 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again +in November of 1962, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife +Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of +your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go +right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the +Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you +as little as possible. + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at +that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our +house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you and your husband divorced at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do +something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him +that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do +with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to +$75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that, +so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was +sometime in July, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1962? + +Mrs. HALL. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were. +They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I +told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money. +And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in +this way I start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her +some clothes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Marina money from time to time? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her. +George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you money besides Mr. Bouhe? + +Mrs. HALL. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my +employer's wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is her first name? + +Mrs. HALL. Loraine Patterson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much money did she give you, do you remember? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. It was $10, or $15. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much did Bouhe give you? + +Mrs. HALL. Twenty dollars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is +that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in +Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else give you any money for the Oswalds? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I spent myself, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For them? + +Mrs. HALL. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I +bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries +until they moved to my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether +you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they +moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. HALL. My money or just general? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether. You said that you thought Bouhe had given you +$20? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been +$30 or $35? + +Mrs. HALL. I spent probably $25 or $30 myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be $50 to $60? + +Mrs. HALL. Something like that, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story. + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime +because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my +work. And then after they--I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he +decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move. + +And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with +the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't +you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and +then you can move?" So that's what they did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas +looking for a job? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when Marina moved to your +house? + +Mrs. HALL. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly +when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you helped Marina move from the +apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you +borrowed? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the +moving? + +Mrs. HALL. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas +that night, that afternoon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that +helped you with the moving? + +Mrs. HALL. No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't very much to move? + +Mrs. HALL. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first +time when George went---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe? + +Mrs. HALL. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child +and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very +nice about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate what Mr. Bouhe was doing +for him? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In +fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't +remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all +kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee +came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw +in the kitchen---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was while Marina was living at your house? + +Mrs. HALL. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and +he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are +not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange +man, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you +purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child +except for what Mr. Bouhe brought? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, nobody else would do it. She was living in my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support +of the family at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer to contribute? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us about how long Marina lived in your house? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they +moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of +October and I stayed in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the +hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I +stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of +October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they +were gone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know exactly when they moved out? + +Mrs. HALL. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with +Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital? + +Mrs. HALL. That--not that I know. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Marina? + +Mrs. HALL. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one +day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about +the past. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to +Dallas from Fort Worth? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I heard that he lived in YMCA. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mrs. HALL. I heard from two friends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who particularly told you? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes, Mrs. Clark. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Max Clark? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George +Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have +lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at +any time in Dallas? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She +borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought +a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I +bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the +sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's +parents lived in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband? + +Mrs. HALL. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second +time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them +after they moved from my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing +machine? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see her using it? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought +it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with +the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just +sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any clothes that Marina made with the sewing +machine? + +Mrs. HALL. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends +of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and +things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina know how to use the sewing machine? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her +sewing, but she said she could. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you +understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to +her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat +her all the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her? + +Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with +George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't +ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, +what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you +remember exactly when that was? + +Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, +is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it wasn't until October or November---- + +Mrs. HALL. October when she moved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a +result of her husband beating her, is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house, +did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told +her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd +better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better +financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't +know." + +And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If +you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And +she said, "No; I don't think so." + +She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever +will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did +not have normal sexual relations. + +Mrs. HALL. Very seldom. The thing that she told me, "Very seldom." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me everything that you can remember about that +subject that Marina told you. + +Mrs. HALL. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not +have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only +thing she told me. + +And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my +business, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that Marina said about that subject? + +Mrs. HALL. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her +to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would--was not very +much of a man in that sense? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. That is what she told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They very seldom had sexual relations? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with her any other +time? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were +getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your +house, other than what we have already talked about? + +Mrs. HALL. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him +about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That +is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't +like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. +John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I +ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of +everything, hot peppers." + +And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And +after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some +people like them and some don't." + +Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an +argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or +something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife +to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a +good wife? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48 +hours a day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble +because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so +on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald +in front of other people? + +Mrs. HALL. Who? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina making fun of Lee? + +Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes; she would do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any specific examples? + +Mrs. HALL. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He +is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that. +Not complete man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not +just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination +of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was. + +Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other +people, or was it a more general thing? + +Mrs. HALL. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I +asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more +about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if +there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely +Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your opinion? + +Mrs. HALL. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would +pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear them argue about politics? + +Mrs. HALL. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the +Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a +conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in +Russia?" + +And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the +restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would +get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on. +And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life +in Russia than Marina did? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a common thing for them to argue about? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions, +she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in +Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's +apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or +magazines that you saw? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the +downtown library, Fort Worth Library. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether these books related to particular +subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do remember that? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I +think. I don't remember any names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the specific names of any of the books? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian, Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Lee Oswald in Russian? + +Mrs. HALL. All the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian +language? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? + +Mrs. HALL. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could +read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him, +I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her +learn English?" + +And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't +need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English." + +And he said, "No, I won't." He never will talk English to her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also speak to Marina in Russian? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well +could she speak Russian? + +Mrs. HALL. Very well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was she better able to speak Russian than Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; of course. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the +Russian language? + +Mrs. HALL. Very good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it grammatically correct, would you say? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your own command of the Russian language good, would +you say? + +Mrs. HALL. I thought it was good, and I think it is good, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What language did you learn as a child? + +Mrs. HALL. Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that was the first language you spoke, is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school. +Then I was in Russian school again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You also speak French? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your language in Iran? Iranian? + +Mrs. HALL. Armenian. And I think---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Turkish? + +Mrs. HALL. Turkish a little bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to speak to Marina Oswald in English? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach +her something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not +speak English at all? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the +conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't +understand all little things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July +of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could +understand at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I think it was the same thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went +on, is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her +books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was +sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and +sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all +that I know that she has of English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Peter Gregory? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his son, Paul? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I never met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of Paul Gregory to you? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Gary Taylor? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house--in +fact, I just came out from the hospital accident--this Gary Taylor and +his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort +Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of +George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of +his? + +Mrs. HALL. I saw him altogether maybe three or four times. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to De Mohrenschildt about Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't think I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend +of Oswald's? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close +with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and +didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive an automobile? + +Mrs. HALL. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking +something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?" +And he said, "No". + +I said "How come?" + +He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school +can drive a car. How come you can't?" + +And he said, "Well, I just can't." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Oswald learning how to drive a car? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you +could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina +ever did get her teeth fixed? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe +made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she +came--and extracted them and came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be +done? + +Mrs. HALL. No; she did not tell me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who paid for it? + +Mrs. HALL. No. Maybe George Bouhe did, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Marina about +religion? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she +said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was +baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion +and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the +baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek +Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and +she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one +night, her and the baby, and we--I am a godmother of the child. And, +of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of +course, didn't like it at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything, specifically that he said about +that? + +Mrs. HALL. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas--I asked her, +and she said, of course, he didn't like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you +went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Me, Marina, and the child--Lee---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time? +What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree, +no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?" +And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a +Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree." + +Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was +Christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a +commercialized holiday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband said in response to +that remark by Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at +Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to +Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and--we will +come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants, +she can go with you." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to +Church? + +Mrs. HALL. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't +believe in nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever go to church with you and your husband? + +Mrs. HALL. No; she never did go. Well, I never did see them after +Easter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know after Marina moved out of your house where +she went? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess they had an apartment at Elsbeth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth +Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved +around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went +to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a +couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment +on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after +she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in +Dallas? + +Mrs. HALL. I think they had an argument and she left one night and +she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is +everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just +hear things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any direct knowledge of that instance? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I mean I wasn't in touch with them at all, never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's +apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was +discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as +to what the conversation was? + +Mrs. HALL. With him? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; with him or with Marina. + +Mrs. HALL. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work. +And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for +himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business +for myself." + +And he said something about security, I don't have any security here +on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he +said something about Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how +long he was going to have his job? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you +don't have to worry about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate that he wanted to go to Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. No; well, he never did say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return +to the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but +she never did want to go back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I was telling her--she said the life is so bad there. +Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They +don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed +her--she don't have relatives--I think she has only, I mean she don't +have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss +them but I wouldn't like to go back and live." + +Mr. LIEBELER. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to +Russia; is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to +just get out from that place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get that impression? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I don't know, because I don't think she ever loved him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that +statement on? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were +married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she +never did like him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married +Oswald to come to the United States? + +Mrs. HALL. No; she never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to +whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States? + +Mrs. HALL. I think I mentioned to somebody. I don't remember who. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in +the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why +Marina married Oswald, or do you? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't know what they thought. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to +take a gift to the baby, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the +baby and yourself and your husband? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at +that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we +will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was any--was there any further conversation about +Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina +told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he +lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of +those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found +out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are +you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn. +"Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was +a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all +day and eat trout. Fish and eat." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was not working at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. No; he wasn't working. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he worked in Dallas when he had a job? + +Mrs. HALL. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know, +printing pictures or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, +all the conversation that occurred at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the last time you saw Lee Oswald, is that right? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to +New Orleans, Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. HALL. I didn't know it. I heard it again that they moved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? + +Mrs. HALL. I think Mrs. Max Clark. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband +about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think I mentioned to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said and what you said? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't think we said anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband told you when you +heard that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John, +thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to +New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of that conversation? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark, +because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes +more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We +don't see him very much, these Russian people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political conversations with Oswald? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to Oswald's political views? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that opinion? + +Mrs. HALL. That he is a Communist and nobody can change him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You formed that opinion because of books and literature +that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you +about him? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have +learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that +here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I +was raised in a very anti-Communist family. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't have much sympathy with Oswald's attitude? + +Mrs. HALL. No; none at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to +Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did she tell you that? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it +was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes +here in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of +these classes? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked +her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I +have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and +Rubenstein or Ruby? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about +his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had +never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they +live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found +this apartment in Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never mentioned Lee's mother to you at all? + +Mrs. HALL. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas, +something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You later learned from reading the newspaper that +Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard Lee Oswald mention his mother at any +time? + +Mrs. HALL. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look, +or if he had something to read, he would read. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read quite a bit? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he +did with his time when he wasn't at work? + +Mrs. HALL. He was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had +other than his work? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at +the little pond in Dallas? + +Mrs. HALL. That is when he didn't have any job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Alexander Kleinlerer? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were +divorced. That was all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What? + +Mrs. HALL. I said, that was all he was coming, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that +you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York, +that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting +along? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when +I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got +married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this +Kleinlerer any more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since then? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about +what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone? + +Mrs. HALL. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to +grocery store, and sometimes she would take her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries +for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did +you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery +store, or something like that? What was it? + +Mrs. HALL. I didn't give her money that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did she get groceries during the time that you were +gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do +you know? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't know. Maybe Mrs. Clark or Mr. Kleinlerer paid for +her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But during the time that you and Marina both were living +at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did both you and Marina live in the house +together? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess 2 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you were actually together in the house? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact--that time +when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked +overtime at nights. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you doing work as a dental technician at that time? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these +various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the +reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you +present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had +in Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't +remember, really. I never did talk about this with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you +were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I +don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Marina worked, too? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income +when he was in Russia from any source other than his job? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he +received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I never heard of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on +when he was in Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. I don't know. He never did mention it to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of +such a thing? + +Mrs. HALL. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we +were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their +possessions? You said that you moved them? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that +right? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia, +where she lived and what kind of things she did? + +Mrs. HALL. Not very much, really. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had been born in Leningrad? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved +to Minsk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they +returned to the United States? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, because I think he changed his mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any specific reasons that made him change his +mind? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave +Russia and come back to the United States together like they did? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; it was kind of strange. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else? + +Mrs. HALL. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the +papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean, +we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called +Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know. + +Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally +John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and +all the Russians told probably, it is okay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian +people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the +Soviet Union and come back? + +Mrs. HALL. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him +over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking +to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you read in the paper after the +assassination, isn't that right? + +Mrs. HALL. No; I think it was in the paper at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When they came back from Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian +friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's +return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to +leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything +that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would +like to have it. + +Mrs. HALL. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we +thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these +people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a +Russian agent? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that +Oswald might be a Russian agent? + +Mrs. HALL. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one +thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--I don't +know how to express myself--person, that I never thought he could do +something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Like shoot the President, you mean? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the +assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, +did it? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Mrs. HALL. Very much so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it +then? + +Mrs. HALL. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, +after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you +hear? Lee Oswald--Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?" + +I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee +Oswald's name." + +And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was +Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian +group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you +ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government +for any reason? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long +time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to +return from Russia? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk +about President Kennedy in any way? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Governor Connally? + +Mrs. HALL. No; never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have +had with Mr. Nixon? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any +discussion about him? + +Mrs. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. +Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship +with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I +haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you +should add at this point? + +Mrs. HALL. I wish I knew more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think we pretty well covered everything? + +Mrs. HALL. Yes; that is all, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very +much, Mrs. Hall. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL + +The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you +solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? + +Mr. HALL. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member +of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the +assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your +testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of +Congress 137. + +Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of +procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I +believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would +contact you this week to take your testimony. + +Have you received copies of those documents? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever +knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts +that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union. + +Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would +you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just +he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any +difference? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that +you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name? + +Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? + +Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company? + +Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? + +Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? + +Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to +Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth? + +Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. +And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort +Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. HALL. 1928. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1928? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name? + +Mr. HALL. Elena Hall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall? + +Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently +divorced? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried? + +Mr. HALL. In November of 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? + +Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital +difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time. + +I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in +about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort +Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe +it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one +of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, +through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, +although Gali wasn't involved in this---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia? + +Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born +in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in +their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian. + +All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. +As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and +ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the +line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to +their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, +and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De +Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this +Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the +meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they +already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there +while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time? + +Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I +discussed this. + +That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here +in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me +that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and +dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George +Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was +on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we +would like to give this guy a job. + +It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the +personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray +Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job +through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time +being. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job +through the Texas Employment Commission? + +Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this +first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you +then meet Oswald? + +Mr. HALL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you +talked about? + +Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back +from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was +telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression. + +So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent +magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are +destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about +Russia. + +We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing +really important was said, that I can think of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia? + +Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by +his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and +getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at +that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and +this Taylor fellow. + +Do you mind if I smoke? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not. + +Go right ahead. + +Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any +detail? + +Mr. HALL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, +several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in +from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning. + +I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday +morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and +spent most of the day there. + +And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was +the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge. + +The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the +house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few +minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with +Marina, Thursday or Friday. + +Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I +was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital. + +Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our +house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and +Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and +ate with them. + +And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia +a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was +really led by Max. + +He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system +of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic +principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth. + +This was about all that was said there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia +in the first place? + +Mr. HALL. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they +were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I +only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a +discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up? + +Mr. HALL. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after--this was +the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came +back and we remarried November 17, I believe--we didn't see Oswald +again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for +the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems +like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church +at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on +Sunday afternoon. + +Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been +during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas +time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Oswald lived then? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff, +Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to +why he went to Russia? + +Mr. HALL. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real +strongly religious--I mean not to any extreme, but I have my +firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our +Christianity--I am a Baptist--I mentioned to Oswald--this is what +touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a Christmas tree. We +wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents, +probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have +a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that +he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, +and so forth. + +When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was +actually the first time I think that--this is the third time that I saw +him--I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when +he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything +specific--when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally. + +I might not have seemed that way--I didn't get mad or anything, but I +didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I +asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in +Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us. + +And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this +Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a book there? + +Mr. HALL. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian +literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he +had? + +Mr. HALL. No; I really don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. HALL. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he +didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to +come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right, +but I am not going to go." + +About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we +had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had +accomplished the purpose, so we left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons +why he went to Russia? + +Mr. HALL. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight. +I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the +system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along +down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as +could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in +his job and didn't like the whole setup." + +And I wondered why. And he said, "He didn't have security." + +And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work +and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it +seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and +learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would +be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of +life. + +And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was +real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he +told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United +States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where +his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that +everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the +reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as +he was just unhappy with all of our systems. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return +to Russia? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; and even at this time--in fact, I don't remember, I +don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go +back. + +And I know this to be real definite that--I don't know how you want +that--because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from +the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word +got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was +in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew +that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia. + +So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, +or told me directly--I think it was more directly, because I know at +that time he wanted to go back to Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so +many words? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told +her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his +way to Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at +Easter of 1963? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, +but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit +harder at that time than I had before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during +the time that he had previously been there? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working +in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about +the terrible expense of shoes and clothes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory? + +Mr. HALL. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really +don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't +remember what it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving +income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might +have gone on in Russia? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or +the use of firearms? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall? + +Mr. HALL. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we +met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just +about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn +English? + +Mr. HALL. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more +important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for +her to learn English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina +Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood +English? + +Mr. HALL. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she +could understand anything further than hello. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the +fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to +use English throughout that entire time, is that correct? + +Mr. HALL. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S. +Government for any reason that you can remember? + +Mr. HALL. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I +don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together +with Oswald, and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told +me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt--and we are just middle-income +people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were +true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in +the bedroom and one in the living room. + +This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like +electric can openers and things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social +system? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him say anything about President +Kennedy? + +Mr. HALL. Never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the +United States and leave Russia? + +Mr. HALL. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is +because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about +wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he +told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas +or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to +go back to Russia. + +And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia +about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I +wondered why. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about +it? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time +that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times +that you saw him? + +Mr. HALL. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he +was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use. + +And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings +for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave +my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help +her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they? + +Mr. HALL. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I +think there were several people. My wife would know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Gave clothes to Marina? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to +my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where +people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him +the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this +magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I +had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason +we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to +take her an Easter bunny. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly? + +Mr. HALL. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way? + +Mr. HALL. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on +it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no thoughts at the time before the +assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in +any respect, did you? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you really consider or question, or you just never +thought of it? + +Mr. HALL. Just never thought of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other thing that you might know +about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife +wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? +I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more +familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct? + +Mr. HALL. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like +Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald, +and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you +become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties +with their marriage? + +Mr. HALL. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I +don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that +he beat her up one time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up? + +Mr. HALL. I didn't; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having +marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs. +Hall's house in Fort Worth? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was +because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct? + +Mr. HALL. To give him a chance to get settled; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help the Oswalds move? + +Mr. HALL. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at +Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from +her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped +him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall when you went to New York? + +Mr. HALL. Well, we got back--we were married on the 17th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of November? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that, +which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back +and--a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business, +and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and +we were married on the 17th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your +wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first +move into the house with your wife? + +Mr. HALL. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of +October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually +came back from New York--you see I came back a week earlier than she +did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New +York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since +she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part +of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know +what day, I don't think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you weren't there when she moved out? + +Mr. HALL. No; we were in New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was gone when you got back? + +Mr. HALL. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas +during the time his wife was living in your house? + +Mr. HALL. We understood--this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I +guess--that he was living at the YMCA. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to +the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct? + +Mr. HALL. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in +Dallas before taking that apartment? + +Mr. HALL. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from +Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address +on Neely Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. N-e-e-l-y? + +Mr. HALL. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it +was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them +or gave any money to Marina? + +Mr. HALL. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for +Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the +time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy +groceries for the Oswalds at other times? + +Mr. HALL. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and +George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery +Ward. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas? + +Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to +the Oswalds during that period of time, do you? + +Mr. HALL. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in +dollars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service? + +Mr. HALL. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military +service. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you might know about +Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think +the Commission should know? + +Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to +Mexico? + +Mr. HALL. Not to me; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to +anybody else? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. HALL. Not at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't surprised? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? + +Mr. HALL. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and +said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in +our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on +the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes +later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were +sure it was Oswald, then all of us--I am talking about my wife and Mrs. +Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not +surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like +that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew +that knew him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed +during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and +if he did it, what his motive was? + +Mr. HALL. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I +actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way +he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If +he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done +something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely +out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this +is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this +book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so +set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't +have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I +was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, +was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a +chance to change his thinking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that these political attitudes of his were +somehow related to his involvement in the assassination? + +Mr. HALL. Say that again? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic +attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate +the President? Or were related to it? + +Mr. HALL. My--this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely +feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our +economic way of life by doing that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express +his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved +of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking? + +Mr. HALL. Exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition +for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally? + +Mr. HALL. No; I didn't think of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this +before the assassination? + +Mr. HALL. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in +that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your +mind prior to the assassination, is that correct? + +Mr. HALL. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He really didn't care what people thought about him? + +Mr. HALL. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really +believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy +if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia +and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was +looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, +no money problems, no rent problems--you see what I mean, just a +middle-of-the-roader. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be +excellent at things? + +Mr. HALL. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas +which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would +go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a +middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type +person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is +going to change him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any +discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was +possibly an agent of the Soviet Union. + +Mr. HALL. This came up after the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no discussion about that prior to the +assassination, that you can remember? + +Mr. HALL. As an agent for Russia before, no, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the +assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent? + +Mr. HALL. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider the question after the assassination and +you did discuss it? + +Mr. HALL. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In +that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just +my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is +not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words, +he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He +couldn't take the orders. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of +authority, generally speaking? + +Mr. HALL. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he +must have had a lot of authority above him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was +resentful of authority? + +Mr. HALL. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He +was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just +resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge +him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or +anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just +our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can +remember, why he was resentful of it? + +Mr. HALL. Insecurity, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as jobs were concerned? + +Mr. HALL. Basically, that's right; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at +this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA) + +The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., +on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. +Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. +If you will rise and raise your right hand, please---- + +Mrs. RAY. Surely. (Complying.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mrs. RAY. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise +you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and +Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you +a letter last week? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With which he included copies of the Executive order---- + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules +of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony. + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You received the letter and copies of the documents? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically +with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a +result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, +I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you +would. + +Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Frank H. Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mrs. RAY. I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ray? + +Mrs. RAY. In Stalino, Ukraine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mrs. RAY. June 9, 1927. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States? + +Mrs. RAY. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and +they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 +until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Germany? + +Mrs. RAY. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that +part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an +American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name? + +Mrs. RAY. Henry W. Bahlkow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was a member of the U.S. Army? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, 36th Division and he was--I don't know what outfit at +the time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present +address if that help. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living in St. Louis? + +Mrs. RAY. No, Hicksville, Long Island? + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is his address? + +Mrs. RAY. I forget number--Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street--it would +be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an +electrical engineer over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were taken from Russia at the age of 14? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work for the Germans after that time? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal +education? + +Mrs. RAY. Let's say it stopped it completely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What formal educational background do you have? + +Mrs. RAY. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think--I +don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten +into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare +schools here to school over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any formal education other than that? + +Mrs. RAY. When I came over here I went to International Institute in +St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went +to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington +University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen +papers and I became citizen 1949. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? + +Mrs. RAY. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of +1954; I remarried. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What does your present husband do? + +Mrs. RAY. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name +of Pollock and Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is located in Dallas? + +Mrs. RAY. 3508 Dickason. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina +Oswald? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could +come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been +staying at Mrs. Ford's house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina had? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see +if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to +have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with +baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure +about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since +I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved +her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that +Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me +if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come +out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my +husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest. + +He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some +kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in +the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime +so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and +she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so +my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an +apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't +see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or +4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my +neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed +about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there then? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable +because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out +of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these +clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't +seem to be ungrateful but looked like "We don't need it." He didn't +say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Lee did not thank you for the clothes? + +Mrs. RAY. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I +talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house +and talked with his wife---- + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment +prior to that time? + +Mrs. RAY. I got impression that they did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember how you got that impression? + +Mrs. RAY. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take +her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" +She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment +was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when +I talked to her on everything she described apartment--"I have living +room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"--so I am almost certain that is +the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He +just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with +her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's +and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea +where she has been. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the +Oswalds marital difficulties? + +Mrs. RAY. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; +he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry +for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English +and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that +he struck her or beat her up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what +reason for beating her up? + +Mrs. RAY. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since +she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't +like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you +leave--I am not that nosey. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to +Mrs. Ford's to pick her up? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard about her prior to that time? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a +new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I +am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very +much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been +almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was +very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on +now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why +Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were? + +Mrs. RAY. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at +all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina +left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the +clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's +house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to +talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's +place on Elsbeth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the +day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina---- + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; at my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your +recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation +was? + +Mrs. RAY. My talk with him mostly just on--what did I talk to him +about? I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just +sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did +get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. +He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made +all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something +about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some +things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for +him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation +in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not +know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband +just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his +life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this +country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the +world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little +to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian +or in English? + +Mrs. RAY. In Russian at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina could understand English? + +Mrs. RAY. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like +simple words like if I say bread or--I would say she did not understand +maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use +every day in the kitchen, not any English at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did +not try to teach Marina English? + +Mrs. RAY. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina +why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask +Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that +when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English +to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say in response to that? + +Mrs. RAY. I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all +time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald make any response to that? + +Mrs. RAY. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was +absolutely--you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get +answer. He did not say one word. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald drank at all? + +Mrs. RAY. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. +I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I +don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period +but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink +because he would have said I don't care for any today or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything more about the conversation +that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my +cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping +the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not +find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough +to discuss anything else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in +Russia, where she was born, where she was raised? + +Mrs. RAY. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember +where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by +her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or +aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and +the first time--like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to +so and so and by that time, it got to me--first I heard about was she +was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in +Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did Marina tell you that? + +Mrs. RAY. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I +understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived +with her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that +information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's? + +Mrs. RAY. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I +mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see +her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She +is the first Russian I met here in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New +Year's, 1962? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Oswald there? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some +hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much +surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said +"Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people. +He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to +spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there +is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, +it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how +is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and +I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; +somebody was talking care. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how Oswald came to the party? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; later on "Katya"---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]? + +Mrs. RAY. Katya told me--that is Mrs. Ford--George De Mohren--it's +something; I don't know him very well at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; they brought them to the party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the +Oswalds left the part? + +Mrs. RAY. None. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or +during the period following the Ford party in which the question of +whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed? + +Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party +for--normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time +of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one +time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone +since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about +Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work +and she did not say. I really have no information after that party. +I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I +never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it +from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, +you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me +and I have never discussed it with anyone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back +to Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the +assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald? + +Mrs. RAY. Not--I do not know enough because--I do not know anything +about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently, +therefore, I usually stay away from that subject. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the +assassination based on your exposure to her? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably +would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so +little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her +to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything +she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her +because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country +and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I +was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent +person? + +Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it +was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very +nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she +was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite +intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little +immature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just +as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to +another country. In your own country might not be considered immature +but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, +people might consider you immature where you really not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the +assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house +when she had to go down for questioning. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was? + +Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington? + +Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was +after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I +took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days +later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have +to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie? + +Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in +Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over +and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more +time and that was last time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those +questions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it? + +Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" +And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss +him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him." +And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that +is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not +about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to +bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she +wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to +her about it but she did not and I really did not ask. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it? + +Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she +thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret +Service and FBI? + +Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, +everyone came to my house, they were very nice people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a +story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life +of Richard Nixon? + +Mrs. RAY. In the papers? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all? + +Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on +Richard Nixon. I did not know it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he +wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it. + +Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am +sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I +missed that one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with +Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to +do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go +to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists +school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked +about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald +had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I +remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how +or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the +paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone +else? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit +suicide or attempt to? + +Mrs. RAY. No; never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak +Russian? + +Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, +every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were +not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by +foreigner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I +think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak +English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than +English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in +Russia to learn perfect it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about +what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you +think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that? + +Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were +mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. +I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would +speak. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the +Russian language? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in +Leningrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. +Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, +you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; +when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from +Leningrad. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about +Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from +Leningrad to Minsk, if she did? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met +Oswald in Russia and why she married him? + +Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love +and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her +about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what +was said? + +Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked +her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what +did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have +said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask +how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that +funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they +said they went together little while and she fell in love with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is? + +Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald +just to get out of Russia, did you? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had +a lot to do with it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"? + +Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first +chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into +Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. +I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was +far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back +to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her +mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an +American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own +experience. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of +your acquaintance? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he +was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly +and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did +not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even +though you did not do anything or speak two words to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in +connection with the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not +believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee +Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they +suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I +know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first +I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had +not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called +Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee +Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it +was him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised? + +Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew +Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so +shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any +kind of opinion what kind of person he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous +or prone to violence? + +Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he +was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when +I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met +him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he +struck Marina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes? + +Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just +gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small +children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my +2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear +corduroy pants and stuff like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any +money or groceries or clothes or anything like that? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. +I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things +but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George +Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if +they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing +company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend +any money? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. +She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by +us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that +night Lee came over to your house? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly +it was he begged her to come back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about? + +Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to +come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and +begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your +husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or +have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as +to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one +who killed the President? + +Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say +did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say +to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we +would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone +else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was +connected with anyone, but done it on his own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it? + +Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really +knows what prompted him to do such a thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about +any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything +about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with +Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place +like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in +Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee +Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and +I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go +to nightclub. He despised them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination +or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her? + +Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few +weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was +very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody +else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime +when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and +ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was +positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my +presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until +she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he +would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until +now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He +worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that +child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I +do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved +you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after +this all happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's +attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations? + +Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did +hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to +me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not +discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the +assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina +was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian +group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything +like that may have been the case? + +Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are +older people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason +to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway? + +Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect +anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to +tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody +at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself? + +Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he +looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the +effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have +bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to +buy a rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. +I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission +might want to know about or should know about. + +Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. +George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took +us out, her and me, to lunch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We +were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had +left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both +knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had +to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay +at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her +in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time +and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. +Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are +going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald +came and got her before we did anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald? + +Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would +have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands +clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when +I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone +and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will +help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it +amounted to $7, groceries, baby food. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was this? + +Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. +I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living +here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have +money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to +this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to +school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired +of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on +her but he has always been very, very helpful with people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was +resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying +to interfere with his marriage? + +Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not +think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian +thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference +with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and +food for her baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald +resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of +taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to +interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful? + +Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when +she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes +to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. +He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was +a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was +comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and +should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He +seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full +share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could +be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to +it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually +talking to him alone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you +would like to tell us, I have no further questions. + +Mrs. RAY. I do not know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down. + +Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ + +The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m., +on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. +Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. +Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please? + +Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth in this deposition which we are about to take? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I do. + +I want to add only that I will--some of my statements or even the +majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as +a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you +testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came +to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to +you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which +we call hearsay. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. And something else--some of the statements, +they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be +entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words. +You realize that? + +Mr. JENNER. I do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you +have? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. We don't expect any more. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. We don't want any speculation on your part---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I see. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression +or impressions are and what they might not be. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Igor Voshinin? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your maiden name? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Semenov, S-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling]. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are a resident of Dallas? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Dallas, Tex.--right. 3504 Mockingbird. + +Mr. JENNER. 3504 Mockingbird. And you are the wife of Igor Voshinin? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the +general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the +assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would +appear---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which +authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's, +the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission +and fixing its rules and affording it its powers? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of +procedure of the Commission? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents +that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've +indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President +John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking +from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and +Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in +contact with them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And we understand that you have some information in those +areas and I would like to inquire of you about them. + +I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the +Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a +representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a +citizen of the United States? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born +here? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Naturalized; 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. 1955; March 7? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were naturalized in New York City, I believe? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In New Jersey. + +Mr. JENNER. In New Jersey. Where were you born? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will +spell you both names, because when I was born it was called +Labinskaja--[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has +been called Labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is. + +Mr. JENNER. And orient me--where is that in Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This +is Southern Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. It's in the Caucasus? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus--[spelling] +F-o-r-e--Caucasus. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a person of higher education, are you not? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I hold a degree in geology. That's all. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in +America, call the equivalent of high school? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a university? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years. +It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my +bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. That's Brooklyn, N.Y.? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Brooklyn, N.Y. And master's degree at Rutgers in 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. Rutgers University? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Rutgers University--right; in geology. + +Mr. JENNER. Where in Yugoslavia was the university that you attended? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Belgrade. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband +who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from +Russia when you were 1 year old? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Something like that; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And in what country were you when you first became +conscious of your whereabouts? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I was in Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. In what town? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Panchevo, next to Belgrade--[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. +And before that my parents lived for a few years--I think for a +couple of years in Bulgaria--in Varna Pleven--[spelling] V-a-r-n-a +P-l-e-v-e-n--and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates. + +Mr. JENNER. That's just by reputation? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. If you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Forty-five; March 21, 1918. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Where did you meet Mr. Voshinin? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In Belgrade. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then +I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that +I met him again. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil +engineer--as a city engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I understand he's some 12 years older than you? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. Eleven and a half--something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was a civil engineer in---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In the city of Panchevo. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1942? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 1939? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because +he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning---- + +Mr. JENNER. He was? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drafted to the Army. + +Mr. JENNER. What Army? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yugoslavian Army. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were conscious of that fact, were you? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't--what do you mean, "conscious"? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and +was in the Yugoslavian Army? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in +1940--January 21. + +Mr. JENNER. January 21, 1940? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And after your marriage---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the +exercises--you know, the Army training. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already +started--remember? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1939. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. The war started in September of 1939. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the +Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to +appear. And then he returned back in 19--let's see, when was that? +1942--no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans +attacked us in April 1941--Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Invaded Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Invaded Yugoslavia; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you there then? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And you moved from Yugoslavia to where? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an +invitation to me, too. + +Mr. JENNER. To come to Germany? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm +sorry. This is just a joke. It was--well, they would just ask you to +appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to +fill in. After that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and +there. + +Mr. JENNER. You were directed to go? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany--drafted with other young people. At that +time they were doing that. + +Mr. JENNER. You were drafted into the work labor force? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Into the work labor force; right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went, then, to Germany? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Austria? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria--Linz Am Donau--[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m +D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube--because there was another +Linz there in Austria. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were there in Austria until when? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Until, I believe, March 1945--until the Russian troops +started approaching Linz Am Donau--because already they were on the +outskirts. + +Mr. JENNER. Already they were on the outskirts? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. They were already approaching. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You could hear the guns? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I didn't hear them very well--but Igor was at +that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite +distinctly--the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time +leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which. + +Mr. JENNER. You wanted any direction away from the---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put +it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid. + +Mr. JENNER. Your direction all your life has been away from the +Russians? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; away from the Russians. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went to where? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of +course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as +you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because, +you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not +have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for +it. Because, before we left town--several days before--Germans made +an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we +stayed, we would be put to death by Russians--so, what could we lose, +you know? + +Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Bavaria--and were you liberated by +anybody? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right--by lots of people. First, I believe it was +French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through +Kempten; and then came American troops. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were completely liberated by them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. It was good! + +Mr. JENNER. You were pleased to see the Americans? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you +know--any friend. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you come to America then? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And settled temporarily, at least initially, in New Jersey? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In New York--well, let's see. No. First of all we +settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down +there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for--I'm not sure--Gee, I +don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my +husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New +York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.--which was across the +bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is. +I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually come to Dallas? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. It was in September--beginning of September 1955. I +believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another +Texas city first? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled +in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to +stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant +there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New +York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we +decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you like the climate here? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Very much. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the +Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you +moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox +Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't +know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--I forget. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you +see, when we were in Houston, we met there--of course, we went to the +church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest +there and---- + +Mr. JENNER. His name? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Father Alexander Chernay. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell it. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "I". I don't know how he +spelled it. + +And then he introduced us to Mrs. Jitkoff's mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that, too. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died. +She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff--[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. +3714 Locke Lane--if you need the address. + +And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and +all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally--she spoke very +convincingly--she liked Texas very much--and we decided to stay here. +And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and +met George. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't know Bouhe prior to this time? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is George Bouhe? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know +exactly for whom he worked at that time--but I know that he worked for +a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager +of the Russian parish there--Father Alexander's parish. + +Mr. JENNER. What parish is that? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That was the St. Nicholas parish. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about this community of people. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, there were very few people and who we met there +were Clarks--one of the first--Gali and Max Clark--that's [spelling] +G-a-l-i. + +Mr. JENNER. In what town do they live? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. They live at 3712 Selkirk--[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k--in +Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Max Clark is an attorney, is he not? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Clark is---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. She has also an education in the law. + +Mr. JENNER. An education in law? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she a naturalized citizen? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to +Max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. She's +not a born American. + +Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is what is her nativity? Do you know? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she said that her mother is of British +descent--Hughes. And her father was Russian--Shcherbatov. It's a very +well-known historical name. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family +by name Popoff--[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f--Nicholas Popoff. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he live here? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not +sure where he works. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a native of Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I think so. + +And I believe that's--yes, there were some people of Ukrainian +background. I don't remember their names, though. + +But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two +priests--young priests--one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another +one, Father Dimitri Royster. + +Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] R-o-y-s-t-e-r? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. And that is where our troubles with George Bouhe +started. + +I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And +Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much +better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a +church of the future. + +And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they +always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that +they understand much better English. They do not understand Church +Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly +different from Russian and different from modern Russian language. + +So, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with +George. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And here the trouble started. + +And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new +church--practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his +church, I believe four Chichillas--[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and +I think that was about the whole parish. + +And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we +resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment +sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have social intercourse with George? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Bouhe? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place--at other +people's parties once in a while, but---- + +Mr. JENNER. Are you employed? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Self-employed. + +Mr. JENNER. Self-employed? + +And, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half +a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz--both geologists. I +stayed with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as +far as I can remember--no longer than a month. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was in 19---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or +November in 1955. + +And then I started working for Henry Rogatz, for whom I worked until +June 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, +George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And +he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and +George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help +him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there. + +Mr. JENNER. Drilling projects? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he +wanted me to participate in the geology. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known this man theretofore? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De +Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. For Mr. Rogatz--right. + +Mr. JENNER. Also, in your profession of geology? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's +present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior +history--only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his +own words. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You start and tell us what he told you---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then go from that to what you know of your own +knowledge. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Sir, I'm afraid I don't know anything of my own +knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us all he told you. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He told me that he had some former wives--that he had a +wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy. + +Mr. JENNER. And that daughter's name was Alex? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Alex. Right. + +And then that he had a second wife--I believe he said her name was +Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she +was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He +never talked about that. + +Mr. JENNER. An entertainer of some kind? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Entertainer of some kind--right. + +And he never talked about her and I understand it was a very short +marriage. + +And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with +George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never +met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never +met her myself. + +And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found--he met Jeanne +[pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met +Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No--I +am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the +Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married, +I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia--two trips. I'm not +sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or +trips to Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, uh-huh. We lived all the time in Dallas--all those +years. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia--and start +from the beginning, as you recall it? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well +that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to +go to Yugoslavia. And, somehow, George didn't like very much this +idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to +go--something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well +in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to +Yugoslavia. + +But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells +rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from +Yugoslavia. + +You see, there actually are two periods in George's life. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about it. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to +Yugoslavia. Because--of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This +is my own impression of the whole thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; well, that's what we want. + +Now, you were living here in Dallas when he went to---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time he went to Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had these conversations with him about going to +Yugoslavia before he left? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you know he went? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And I know he went; right. + +Mr. JENNER. You know, by reputation, that he went to Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. What reputation? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to +Yugoslavia. You do know---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but then he sent us postcards from Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he +brought back--that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia--and he +brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought +back--photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian. + +Some of them I knew--some of the places. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew some of the places in Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He was over there about how long? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I thought he was there about a year--something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was when? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I think it was in--now, that I cannot place exactly. I +think in 1957--in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm +not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959--it was before +1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York +City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So, +that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a +delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us. + +Mr. JENNER. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking, +that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth +Petroleum Congress who knew George? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Knew George very well; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was +said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together +with those people. We just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to +talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite +feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your +husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, they talked our own language. Certainly. + +And we just--I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow +was there who was brought up also in Banat region--[spelling] +B-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he +was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely +afraid. + +Mr. JENNER. Afraid to talk to you? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. You know what he did? For some reason he would +say--"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and +let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he +would immediately cease talking, you know. + +And then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd +that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny +behavior--really. + +Mr. JENNER. And this Fifth Petroleum Conference was when? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1959--end of May and beginning of June, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period +of George De Mohrenschildt's career? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I would call it the second period because, first +of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the +second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for +over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That was--well, from some cracks they made. I +mean--no--well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe. + +But Jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to Mr. Khrushchev, you +know. + +Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the +FBI. So, I would rather say this now. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she +never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really +angry. And it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their +talking in left direction---- + +Mr. JENNER. Their talking what? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know, +and once in a while they were just unpleasant. + +Mr. JENNER. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife +the liberal? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would +talk--could talk either way. George--well, if he would, for example, +think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something +pro-Fascistic, he would do that. + +Mr. JENNER. Saying something what? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Pro-Fascistic, you know--pro-Nazi. + +Mr. JENNER. Pro-Nazi? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that +you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you +know. Communists--not communism. In fact, I never heard George--not +necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising +the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several +ways. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a provocative personality, was he? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. He sought to provoke argument? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that +you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. He would take either side? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Either side. + +Mr. JENNER. Always opposite to the other person? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite +sympathy for the--I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in +particular. + +Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask a question? + +Mr. JENNER. Sure. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford. + +Mr. DAVIS. I mean Declan. Excuse me. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Declan. Yes. + +Mr. DAVIS. Do you know them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well when +she was married to her first husband--but not too close with her after +she married Declan. I just met them several times. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you attend the Christmas party that they had? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I did not--oh, wait a minute. That was not +Christmas party. That was New Year's party. + +Mr. DAVIS. New Year's party? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that. +Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you meet Lee Oswald there? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the +President that we attended the New Year's party. + +Mr. DAVIS. Well, the one the year before? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, no. We went elsewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality--other +than in this area of argumentation and provocation. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He +had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage +absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he +complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very +well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or +something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he unconventional? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--what does that mean exactly? + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't dress normally---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's true; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He would come to church in shorts?---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. He would walk into your home without invitation? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. He was that way. + +Mr. DAVIS. Sort of a beatnik? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, no; not beatnik--but he was definitely +nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you +know, object to. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the feelings of others? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely +enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to--in any way. +For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock +them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they +are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The +conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish +people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know. + +He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children +in that respect--honestly. And what the trouble is with George and +Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme +bitterness--extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their +former life. + +Mr. JENNER. Bitterness? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Toward life, toward people, toward--you know, they +thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example, +Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort +of thing. And so and so on. + +Mr. JENNER. They were unreligious people? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists. + +Mr. JENNER. They were aggressive atheists? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in, +sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the +form, mainly--because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. +There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in +which they did it, you know, the impoliteness. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. To help people? + +Mr. DAVIS. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help +someone that needed help? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature, +they are very, very good natured--definitely. They're for the +underdog, you know--always. And--well, compared to George Bouhe, whose +whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it +or not, you know--they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not +bother so much about people as George Bouhe did. + +Mr. JENNER. They weren't aggressive about it as George Bouhe was? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. But they were very--are very good natured. + +Mr. JENNER. And generous people? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Not George--no. Jeanne, yes; but not George. + +For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very, +very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in +any way they could. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet +either one of the Oswalds? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; uh-uh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn +about their existence? Fix the time, first. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. My husband read it in the newspaper. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be in June of 1962? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say. + +Mr. JENNER. They arrived here in---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. They arrived here and there was an article in the +newspaper. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. They arrived in New York on the 12th day of June 1962? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know about---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just telling you that that's so. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. And then your husband read an item in the local +paper--about what? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. About them arriving here and from where did they come. +They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived here and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in this article that arrested your +attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance +or happenings in Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the +article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my +friends--first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances. +They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't +tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is +a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish. + +Mr. JENNER. Boorish? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the +right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that +we don't want to associate with him at that time. + +And the second time I heard from them--no, between that time--between +Clarks and De Mohrenschildts--I heard from them some other people in +the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them. + +Mr. JENNER. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds--about +two Oswalds. Right? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and +somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I +heard--the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of +Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. In conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political +inclinations? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did they say and who said it--which of them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather +remarks on George's side--because we asked George definitely and Jeanne +not to bring him to our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds +are there because we had certain reasons--not evidence--but reasons to +believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not +sure at all whether he would be or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want +to have anything to do with them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De +Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that +he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then, +later--that was at the beginning--that was at the very beginning--and +then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a +little bit. That's my own opinion--impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you go ahead and talk. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know, +I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You +know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in +theory but not in practice. + +And finally I remember a pretty good conversation--George mentioned the +possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you +know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was." + +And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George +right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. +And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because +he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia--and then, +of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a +Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I +remember that argument--but more than that, I just can't say, because I +just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again, +you know--the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up +about Oswald. What did you mean by that? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him, +definitely for a period. You know, that he was just--that he just was +a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let +anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person--especially a +person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right? + +Mr. JENNER. They let him in in the first place? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans +for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2 +years. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left +in--oh--the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. 1962? So, it's three years. Right? + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Then, for these 3 years--this is all our own theory, we +have no---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. You understand? + +For these 3 years, he could have got his training? Right? Whatever it +is. + +Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children--with +child, wife, and with suitcases--no problem there. Which is absolutely +unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their +families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases. + +And, thirdly, we believed that--we were expecting, rather, to hear +from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know, +reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, +we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in +communism, came here sincerely--like people we know. For example, +Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior +after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was +unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. +Right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. According to George, he was a great--he had +great intellectual power; he was very clever person--definitely +intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was--he +couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual +person to go get his living lecturing against communism? + +Mr. JENNER. Were you harkening back to your own history---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. I might have done it if I hadn't had my own +profession. + +Mr. JENNER. That you were able to obtain positions? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position. +Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember +exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed +their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other +people---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. But--the other point was that it would really help +Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn +some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on +anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to +the factory--or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he +worked--instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right? + +Mr. JENNER. Right. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for +being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his +learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to +lecture? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his +mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really +never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very +well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very +interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt--say, "Well, +why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?" + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I remember I did ask that--and I don't remember the +exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I +remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia, +or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd +leave that up to him. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke +fluent Russian? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good +Russian. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did he ever discuss where he learned to speak Russian so +fluently? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote--I don't +remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what +Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you +know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember. + +Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were +working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2 +years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian--just from +the fact of working--just from the fact of working there? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I think so. Yes; I think so--because, after all, you +rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the +time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more +suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that +Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia--modern apartment. And they +just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have +to earn that to get it. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did she tell this to you? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other +people--I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe. + +Mr. DAVIS. That they had a very nice apartment? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. What would a nice apartment in Russia be? Just one room? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?" +What did you think they had? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought +of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a +bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice +according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another +little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like +him; that his workers actually hated him. + +And that was another hint to me--that why did they hate him? Usually, +Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners. +Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe +he reported on them--or something like that. You know, little by +little--but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken +separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it +together and it sort of tells something to us, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You go right ahead. What you put together and what +impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing +out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be +embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these +impressions, why, what you base them on--and I understand that you are +rationalizing. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did you want to ask a question, Mr. Davis? + +Mr. DAVIS. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to +you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; he never did. + +Mr. DAVIS. You don't recall anything about them being in Moscow? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in +Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper--or maybe his mother +mentioned it--his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother +mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the +American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere. +Some of her gossip, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Some of her gossip? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these +impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of +the time---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since +November 22, 1963. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's what you are doing, is it not? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Fine. + +We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your +fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in +Russia and had come to America with his wife and child---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, +you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted +reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who +was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you +expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, +and these were things he wasn't doing--from which you concluded you had +some misgivings, at least. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And have you recounted all of that now? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have completed your rationalizing statement in that +connection? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a +series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to +the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with +respect to trips to Houston, Tex.? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very +little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his +business affairs--but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. To Houston? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I mean to Houston. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these regular? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow, +with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time, +prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all. +We just didn't give much thought to that. + +Mr. JENNER. But you noticed it? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always +expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our +house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone +number, you know, to call him--and it would be from Houston. + +But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely +impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went +a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his +private business--private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee +Sharples--concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these +Houston trips recently? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips +before November 22--because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned +to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to +bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell +exactly why, but she said something about some people--some character +whom he is visiting in Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Character? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you gather from that? Did she use the word +"character"? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; _Teep_ [phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means +"character" in English. You know, it means type of a person. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character--but what kind +of a person? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, unsavory character. + +Mr. JENNER. Unsavory character? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood politically unsavory. + +Mr. JENNER. Politically unsavory? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's what I understood. + +And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise +that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again--and I assumed +that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in +Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they name the person? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she +said something--I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we +thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well, +you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you +know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you +can see why he thinks. [laughing] + +Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect +on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some +connection with Oswald? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Never. No. In fact, we didn't think of Oswald very much. + +Mr. JENNER. I am talking about your rationalizing last night or---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had +something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business +trips. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do know that you were not aware of what the +character of his business was in Houston, if he had any? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You just assumed he had business in Houston? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't know? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know. + +(Off-the-record discussion follows.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous +walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the +United States to Panama. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make such a trip? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He says he did--and he brought some films and some photo +pictures--photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there +was that volcano eruption, you know--so I assume that he did make the +trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any cards from them as they wended their +way down? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we were not on speaking terms with them. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, this is the period when you were not friendly? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And afterward, when they got back---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. We met them at Ballens. + +Mr. JENNER. And some of the friendship was restored? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did see moving pictures of---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; of their jungle life. + +Mr. JENNER. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there +pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she--because +one of them was taking pictures. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. But you saw representations in the movie film of +him---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and +you saw also her---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. In the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your +attention to a particular incident, did it? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; it did not. It only--you know what I was actually +wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures +could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then, +when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. +Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that +distance. + +Mr. JENNER. The volcano eruption--did that sequence of frames in the +movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was +a very beautiful picture. + +Mr. JENNER. And did the movie film also show him in that area? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; Uh-uh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they say where the volcano was? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I am not sure they said where it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Yucatan? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't think it was Yucatan. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Somewhere near Parikutin, I believe. Somewhere there. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n--because this is one of the +recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico--Parikutin. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. When was this event--the walking trip from the +border to Panama? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know. Chronologically, you mean, when was this? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the time, first, the year--as you best recall +now. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that +Khrushchev came to this country, right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I believe so. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And +we restored it after the trip. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had +visited this country? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They +returned probably in 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated +invasion of Cuba? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. You mean, that President Kennedy is---- + +Mr. DAVIS. Bay of Pigs. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; the Bay of Pigs. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I do remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that +event--at the same time, a little bit before, a little after? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on +dates--and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was +that? + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you've put me in a bad spot. + +Mr. DAVIS. Well, it was in--shortly after 1960. It would be about March +of 1960. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. The President was elected in November 1960. + +Mr. DAVIS. It was very shortly after that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the +President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December, +December of 1960, or January of 1961. + +Mr. DAVIS. I think it was probably about that time--or in February. + +Mr. JENNER. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During +the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been +inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961. + +Mr. DAVIS. The 20th is inauguration. + +Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of January? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes. I think it was in late February or early March. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that's reasonably accurate. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't +know really. Really, I'm afraid to say. + +Mr. JENNER. They might have been in Haiti? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on +the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their +breath--to rest a little. + +Mr. JENNER. On the way back from the Mexican walking trip? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through +Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a +month--and then came back. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the +impression that they had visited Cuba? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. No. But something--I think he did not visit Cuba. I +believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like +that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he +said. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when he visited Ghana? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. There was; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, tell us about that. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I +don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia. +I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am +pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper--Ghana +newspaper--and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read +the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known +philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"--which caught my eye. So, I +thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.] + +Mr. DAVIS. Was he a stamp collector? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. DAVIS. And this article said he was? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced +through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all. + +And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana--so I'm pretty +sure he was there. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw some photographs from Ghana? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Ghana. + +Mr. JENNER. And you saw this newspaper? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and I saw the newspaper--and I believe this +newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti--right. +And the English one was from Ghana; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a Ghana newspaper published in English? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; in English language--written in English language. +And that's what it said there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to him about that? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he +went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look +for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you +know--that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you +are geologists looking for oil, you know. + +But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of +George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some +services for the State Department, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the United States? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Of the United States; yes. And under those +circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you +know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted--made certain +hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For +example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with +the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came +back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on +few other foreign trips, he also said that--sort of, you know, hinted +that that was what. + +Mr. JENNER. What foreign trip? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He was traveling to Europe several times, I forget which. + +Mr. JENNER. Yugoslavia, Ghana? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, let me have--I have it on piece of paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, you have? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior +to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was +before--long before Castro. Right? + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drilling some well--made some very good oil +discovery in Cuba. + +Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime. +Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it +says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And +he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those +three countries. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize any of them? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries. +And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived +formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a +look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first +wife and child. I believe she is--I believe Alex was at that time in +France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that +some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his. + +Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said +to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then--I'm not sure whether he +was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there. +Then, he went to Haiti several times. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether +he actually made them or not, you don't know---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that he told you that? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would +tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite +certain, I think, because of this newspaper--so, that's why. And, then, +we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the +airplane, I mean, but----[Laughter.] + +And then I noticed he visited--he mentioned that he visited--I don't +know--he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic +sometime in between. + +Mr. JENNER. Sometime in between what? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. In between his walking trip and 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had +visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them--but I'm not +sure. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of his absences from Dallas? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. And the general conversation in the community in which you +moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be +making? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his +experiences in these various places and countries? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what +his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell, +yes; about--he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from +Europe, from Ghana, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture +postcards or things he had purchased? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; there were taken photographs. + +Mr. JENNER. Ones that he took? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't +remember--from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card +from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you got cards from Haiti---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Before this last Haiti trip? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so; yes; I don't remember very well; yes. + +You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did +not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they +moved to Haiti we did. + +Mr. JENNER. You did get cards? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present +sojourn of his? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; quite. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he +said, what she said, and then his departure. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. A few months before their departure, he told us that he +is working on getting a job with Haiti and that--I understood--that +foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with +the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti +Government. + +And he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a +lot. + +Mr. JENNER. Back and forth to Haiti? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he +won't even mention where he goes, just when--or sometimes on business +trips. + +Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought +from Haiti a newspaper in which--French newspaper--in French--and it +stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co. +I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement +from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It +wasn't a statement. It was a letter from the bank saying that $20,000 +was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it +was by Haitian Government. That's what it was--as far as I remember. + +Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money +in sisal plantation--[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you use sisal to make rope. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage +sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. +He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that." + +And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's +possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer +time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa +Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very +much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle +down, also. + +Mr. JENNER. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South +America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, I think so. And she said she was very ill on that +trip. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. In these movies, how were they dressed? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she +was wearing very torn dress--which looked like that Tarzan lady on the +films, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything +on [laughing], with very little dress on. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because +they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Robbed, you mean. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; robbed. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No, I thought it was more practical--because the +branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing +you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a +mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers +as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were +attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were +shooting. + +But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they +were taken in the cities for paupers--they were mistaken for paupers, +and people would lend them money. + +Mr. JENNER. Give them pesos? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes [laughing]. + +Mr. JENNER. All of which, I am sure, Mr. De Mohrenschildt enjoyed +thoroughly? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Tremendously [laughing]. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us +about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the +impressions that you gained of the Oswalds--as to how they got along +whether he treated her well or poorly? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oswalds--his wife? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told +us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De +Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to +separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the +reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes--was +beaten again, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Black and blue eyes? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them +returning to Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Either of whom? + +Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Returning to Russia? No; I don't remember. No; I don't +think so. + +Mr. JENNER. No mention of the fact--if it was a fact--that Oswald +wanted Marina to return to Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. Or, that they both desired to return to Russia? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. Just nothing at all concerning---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Nothing at all concerning that. + +Mr. JENNER. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect +to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and +the reaction of Oswald to that? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George +thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee +prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I +remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book +that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was +very angry. + +Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed +against Oswald, you know. Because the why--you know, the reason that he +gave. Why would he want that? + +Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange +about Oswald--my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the +communication of Marina--even with Russian people. Because he was so +unpleasant to Russians--to those folks around who tried to help her, +you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant--and, for some reason, we +got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate +with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I +asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became +acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in +which you moved is concerned? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De +Mohrenschildts--and however you may have liked or disliked them in +their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with +everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this +would be especially true, for example, of Marina--that you'd like to +bring her into the circle? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say because we are not very close with +that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know--St. Nicholas Parish circle. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I really am not thinking about that particular parish. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering +you--that the normal thing that you expected--would expect of these +people---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yeah. I understand you now. Yeah. Quite. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those +with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or +otherwise to acquire facility with the English language---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's +the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country--you know, +just do it as soon as possible. Right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. And what did you understand with respect to her +education? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not +have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe +that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that +wouldn't be college in Russia. It might be something---- + +Mr. JENNER. No. It would be something like junior college here? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Juniors or something like that. It would give her +technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your +friends and the people here, her general level of erudition and +education and intelligence in comparison with his? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. Now, of course, what I'm saying is hearsay, right? + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. But several people said differently. For example, I +heard from the ladies--from the Russian ladies of our parish that +she was--you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, +from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and +everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was +sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who +are more developed---- + +Mr. JENNER. And more educated? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just +the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers, +for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a +little bit. + +So, I really don't know what to think. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the last you heard from the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That was Christmas. We received a card from them. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; it was in 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to +that time--that is, while they were still in Haiti? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. With the De Mohrenschildts before Christmas 1963? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she wrote me two letters; I wrote her one letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any contact with the children--either of Mrs. +De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt--recently? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we were visited by her daughter--by Chris--twice. +Once it was before Christmas and---- + +Mr. JENNER. But after November 22? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I +believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just--they left +on March 15. They left Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything during the course of this social +visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts--George and Jeanne or +Jean or Eugene? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much, +I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they +exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believe +that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things. +I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that +they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Angry in what sense? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--they said that they were not very hospitable for one +thing and, for another things, they--well, they said that George and +Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, now, would you develop that, please? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I hate to do that, because I just don't know how true it +all is. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they +said. It is pure hearsay. I understand. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Pure hearsay of angry children. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what it is. Right? + +Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and +George was because they were shooting their mouths off there--pro-left +and against United States--something to that effect; Chris said that +George was making the most--the funniest accusations--statements in +public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the +President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure--and +this was, of course, awfully shocking to children. + +Mr. JENNER. He believed that the rightwing or the FBI what? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the children said. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Murdered the President. That's what the children said +and I, frankly don't---- + +Mr. JENNER. You don't put much stock in it? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these +were rantings or nonsense or---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like +everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so +bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what +he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or +Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them +by standard measures at all--what they say or what they do even. They +require different measures. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we +necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these +personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they +did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings +and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs. +Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run +them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving +them consideration---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that. + +Mr. JENNER. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay +and rumor---- + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that. + +Mr. JENNER. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you +would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't +necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some +judgment. + +Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I +would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit. + +Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be +helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source +leading us to something that might be helpful--that you would like to +suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I +haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all +that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of +the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I can't think of anything. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't think of anything? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No. I can't think of anything--people that might be +useful. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all +this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? +It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might +be an incident that occurred. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors +that--like everybody else heard--which you have heard definitely--but I +don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the +trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light +on that thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record +and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there +anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record +discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to +your testimony, which I failed to bring out? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that took place in those discussions +that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your +testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't quite understand that question. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the +discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room +that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out +that ought to be on the record? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well what was off the record and +what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You think I have brought out everything? + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Everything; yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also +say the right--I must say the right--to read over your deposition when +it has been transcribed by the reporter--which we hope will be next +week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission +will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband +call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll +know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read +it. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to +you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, +and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your +deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you +and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her +regular rates are. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say, +expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box +[laughter]. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. A historical document! + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I +was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not at all. + +Mr. DAVIS. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back +very wonderful memories for me. + +Mrs. VOSHININ. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ + +The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March +26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please? + +Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Your name is Igor Vladimir Voshinin? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to +investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire +of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons +you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some +contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that +would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy. + +Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of +the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No. +11130, creating a Commission? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the +United States authorizing the Commission? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of +the Commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to +proceed to take your deposition. + +You reside where? + +Mr. VOSHININ. 3504 Mockingbird Lane in Highland Park, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And is Highland Park a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right; but it is an independent community. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; how long have you resided in Highland Park, Tex.? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to that time where did you reside? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In University Park. + +Mr. JENNER. Also a suburb---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. An independent community and suburb. + +Mr. JENNER. And for how long did you reside there? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, since 1957, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Now, it may be late in 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation or profession? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I am a professional engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. And by whom are you employed, or are you an independent +engineer? + +Mr. VOSHININ. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting +engineers. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that name, please? + +Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] M-u-l-l-e-n & P-o-w-e-l-l. + +Mr. JENNER. What area of engineering do you direct your attention? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In structural engineering. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. By naturalization or birth? + +Mr. VOSHININ. By naturalization. + +Mr. JENNER. And when were you naturalized? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be +1954--I'm sorry to delay you. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it +worry you a bit. + +(The witness hands card to Mr. Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. [Reading] March 7, 1955? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. In the light of that, Mr. Voshinin, in what country were +you born? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia before the Revolution. + +Mr. JENNER. And how old a man are you? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in 1906--so, therefore, I am 58 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And +did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from +Russia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and +approximately when. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the +hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we +were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That was in 1920--early in 1920. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then 14 years old, approximately? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Thirteen--yeah. + +Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and +my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now +Istanbul in Turkey. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where +we lived up to this last war. + +Mr. JENNER. 1940---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany, +and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to +Yugoslavia. And after--by the end of the war when the Communists were +close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to +Kempten---- + +Mr. JENNER. To what? + +Mr. VOSHININ. To Kempten in south Bavaria--[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en--and +that's where we met the American Army. + +Mr. JENNER. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance +reached the Bavarian area and freed you? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April +and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in +Germany before the American Army. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you married? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is your wife's name? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Natalie. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you marry her? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Belgrade, Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. VOSHININ. It was in 1940. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; I have no children. I have only my father here. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you come to the United States? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--it was November 12, 1947. + +Mr. JENNER. And your wife accompanied you at that time? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you settled where in this country? + +Mr. VOSHININ. We settled first in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. City? + +Mr. VOSHININ. New York City, for some time, then we mostly lived in New +Jersey. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a higher education--that is, an education +beyond high school equivalent? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what that was, please, and where? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from +the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil +engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City, +or its environs? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right--in Brooklyn. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued your profession in civil +engineering---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1931, up to now--except for the time of war. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the dates again when you were in +Yugoslavia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. From the middle of 1920 to 1942. + +Mr. JENNER. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to +Germany and you escaped then to Austria? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. That was an escape, wasn't it? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they +dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know--and somehow I managed, with +other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people +who got out. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you stay in Austria, then, throughout the war? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; almost out through the war. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Austria was occupied by the Germans also, was it not? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of +course, you had to go to the labor office--because otherwise I would be +arrested immediately. + +Mr. DAVIS. When you'd go there, they'd let you stay in Austria? + +Mr. VOSHININ. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor +force--whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not +disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I--when I +got out of the train with two other fellows--and, of course, it has +cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You had to do a little bribery? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, to three persons there--including the guard which +was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had +seen about a hundred people who did the same thing--so, it probably was +going--big business there. + +Mr. DAVIS. When did you come to Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. 1955--about the first of September. + +Mr. JENNER. You were naturalized in New York City? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; in New Brunswick, N.J. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, New Brunswick, N.J.? + +Mr. VOSHININ. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in +New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you +know. + +Mr. JENNER. You're asthmatic? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I'm asthmatic--and, therefore, I have to choose my +climate. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin--was she likewise born in Russia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her +parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old. + +Mr. JENNER. She probably wouldn't remember then. + +Mr. VOSHININ. She doesn't know anything about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you +had any advance acquaintance with anybody here? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I knew two persons whom I met through the church. + +Mr. JENNER. And what church is that? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--the church in Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it and what is its denomination? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Greek Orthodox Church. + +Mr. JENNER. Greek Orthodox Church? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's +St. Vladimir--but I'm not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. St. Vladimir? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so--but I'm not quite sure that was the +name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houston first---- + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they +gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky--Paul Raigorodsky. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name, please. + +Mr. VOSHININ. R-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he of Russian descent--or Yugoslavian or what? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. He had preceded you to this country? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long? + +Mr. VOSHININ. He was the first Russian immigrant who settled here in +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And he is a millionaire--a very rich man. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known him? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, +the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you +go to Dallas--we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston +and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. +So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, +but we don't know anybody." + +So, he said, "Well, why don't you--we have two men who are able to help +you--and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe--George Bouhe." The +Russians are referring--joking about Raigorodsky--they call him, "the +Czar," here. + +Mr. JENNER. Yeah. + +Mr. VOSHININ. So--he's an old man--and so when we came, then the +next day--it was during our vacation in 1955--and so we went to see +Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there +is a church of our denomination here on McKinney and a few other just +useful things--nothing in particular. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted--when you came to +Dallas, you didn't know anybody? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You then became acquainted with Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Bouhe--and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of +liked--and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked. + +Mr. DAVIS. Was there any special reason for that other than just---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to +mix in their affairs---- + +Mr. JENNER. Their personal affairs? + +Mr. VOSHININ. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't +need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't +like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like--didn't +like his approach too well. + +Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a +little aggressive in your personal affairs? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor, +you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire with respect to that--your aversion, at +least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not +that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal +affairs--particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and +what not to do? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Well, everybody complaining the same way. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Although I don't mind him helping people. + +Mr. JENNER. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has +it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on +government--communism--conservatism--whatever it might be? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No. But my impression is that he is rather +conservative--in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about +the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot +somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. In Russia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him, however, as a loyal American? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--well, I don't know. We never talked about any +American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any +proof otherwise. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't suspect him, however, of any Communist +affiliation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well--uh--one is accustomed to suspect everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, no more than that? + +Mr. VOSHININ. But--uh--no more than that, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas +broadened, did it not, as time went on? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was +largely among that segment of the community or society here of people +from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and Lebanon. + +Mr. JENNER. Lebanon, also? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, those people who come to church. + +Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance, initially, was among church folks---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Who attended your church? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney +Avenue--because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's +the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people +went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English +language. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the parish? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, there were two parishes there. + +Mr. JENNER. Yeah. + +Mr. VOSHININ. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One +was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim +Parish. + +The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the +services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held +their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas +Parish--who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor +coming from Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was Father---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Father Alexander. + +Mr. JENNER. And the Father of the other parish is Dimitri? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Father Dimitri Royster. + +Mr. JENNER. Royster? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And the St. Nicholas Parish secretary-treasurer is Mr. +Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's the motivating force, is he? + +Mr. VOSHININ. He's the motivating force there--and everything +[laughter]. + +Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I +became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and--uh--I +didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that largely because of the aggressiveness of Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. VOSHININ. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting +once in 5 weeks--and many other things--and because I believe that +the church in this country should be in the language of the country. +I think it's natural--it's what it should be in order that our +denomination can exist at all--because in two, three generations, the +people lose their national language, and then there is no church. +Besides that, uh--I--what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't +think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in +thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national +backgrounds and is--it's absolutely senseless in serving the service +in some other language than the language in which everybody can +understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church--of +which we have remained members up to now. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these two parishes and the church itself--that is, +the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes--is that the +medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say--from +Russia, from Yugoslavia, from---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Lebanon; yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Became acquainted? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. Everybody knows everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew everybody? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth +through this group? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in +the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social +intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that is true. + +Mr. JENNER. And you people generally became acquainted, one with +the other, in not only your church activity but your general social +activity as well? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity, +because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and +my wife met them too, so--but partially, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to +or not you sort of kept track of everybody? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was +doing or would like to? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and +still keeps files on everybody--when anybody was born, baptized, or +whatever happened to everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came +here, I immediately opened a file on you." + +I say, "What for?" + +And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things--so I keep a file on +everybody." + +Then, later, the parishes separated, as you know. + +Mr. JENNER. The parishes separated. Yes. I've heard that. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became +unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out. + +Mr. JENNER. Of that building? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on +Newton and Throckmorton, as you know. + +And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only +used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that +house and it was torn away--torn down. And now there is a Gulf station +on McKinney. + +Mr. JENNER. A Gulf gasoline station? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at +the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic). + +Mr. JENNER. Hold it. Can you spell that? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian +name. These are Georgian people. + +Mr. JENNER. By "Georgian," you mean---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. From Georgia. + +Mr. JENNER. From the Georgia part of Russia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. It's the [spelling] T-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something +like that. + +Mr. JENNER. That's good enough. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that +in Tsinzadze's house--because my father, I think, goes to confession +there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his +confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor +coming there--but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is +now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from +Galveston--from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church--who comes there +once in 5 weeks or so and they have services. + +So, perhaps once in the year we go there--or twice. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you +describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the +community as a group. + +Mr. VOSHININ. St. Nicholas? + +Mr. JENNER. No; the whole--this Russian---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. They are not only Russians there. Of course, +Russians--you said Russians--Yugoslav, Lebanese--but in addition to +that, there are those people--Estonians and Latvians. You see, there +are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you +see, there is a national differentiation now--yeah--in addition, I +can take another nationality. These are people--west Ukrainians and +Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and +Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia. + +So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish--we call that +"Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we +usually call Bouhe's parish. + +Mr. DAVIS. He's still the secretary of that parish? + +Mr. VOSHININ. He's still the secretary of that parish--yeah. + +These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians. +There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians +and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim +Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are +Russians there, there are Yugoslavs--it's true that Bouhe's group has +some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church--not very often at +least--very rare; but they come to us, too--so I don't think they are +members any place--those to which I'm talking about. + +But in our church there are a lot of--well, not too many Russians +there--not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but +we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we +have some Serbians--people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek +people even; we have all the Arabic people here--you know, Lebanese and +other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American +people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members. + +Mr. JENNER. Who became interested in the Greek Orthodox Church? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through +study of church history, became Orthodox. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this group--and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's +following as well as the group in which you move--are they, by and +large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country +or in Europe, or Asia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with +higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of +people with higher education. We have doctors and engineers and---- + +Mr. JENNER. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of +others in the group--in the general sense of the word? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did there move into this community or come into this +community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some +people by the name--or a man by the name--whose last name was De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes--except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in +God. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, he is an atheist--but he did arrive on the scene or he +was on the scene---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived +here. + +Mr. JENNER. He was here? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was here. + +Mr. JENNER. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De +Mohrenschildt already here? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was he active among these people--even though, as you +say, he's an atheist? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was singing in the church choir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was singing in the church choir even though---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. At St. Nicholas. + +Mr. JENNER. Even though he was an atheist? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that's rather unusual. How did that strike you? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in +that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to +church. + +Mr. JENNER. Even though he didn't believe in church? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he said he doesn't believe in it but---- + +Mr. JENNER. And was De Mohrenschildt married at that time? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom? + +Mr. VOSHININ. To the Sharples girl. + +Mr. JENNER. What are they--Quakers? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't +know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor--his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you know of De Mohrenschildt's background? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Only what he told me, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was said by others in this community of people? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; something what was said by others. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by +reputation among the people you have described. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Well, De Mohrenschildt comes from a Swedish family. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean, by reputation, he was born in Sweden? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This +is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born +in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents--and that he was a rich man +and---- + +Mr. JENNER. His father was a rich man? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some +other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil +town in Russia. + +So, probably a very substantially rich man. + +As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested--I don't +know by whom--and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he, +as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and +hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to +get out of prison, and they moved to Poland. + +He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then +went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school +and became a Polish cavalry officer--and he was proudly showing his +picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So--but, +somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to +school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us--I never saw +his diploma--but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics. + +Mr. JENNER. From a school in Belgium? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I--you know, I don't +like to question people too much. + +Mr. JENNER. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is +at large in the community we talked about. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So--but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would +think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember, +of course, better but--somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me +from which school it was, but I don't remember. + +After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and +saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again--and +he went to school in Austin. + +Mr. JENNER. Austin, Tex.? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Austin, Tex.--and in Colorado. Now, whether it was +Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know. +But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned +his master's degree. + +After that, he went to work in some southern American country or--I +think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country--I think it +was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else. +And--uh--then I think he returned here again during the war. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the Second World War? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; during the Second World War, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the +Dallas area or to the United States? + +Mr. VOSHININ. To the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the +war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections +with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some +interest--because he was receiving some money from that company even +after he divorced his wife--until it finally stopped. But he was--I +remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received +from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am +not a consultant any more." + +He was some kind of consultant for that company--I don't know what of, +the company's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he +had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much +money, but helping him. + +And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, +you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and +made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he +was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money--real +big money. + +Mr. JENNER. This is by reputation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil +somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was +Cuba. But that must be in 1953--something like that--because I know +he was always running around talking about income tax on that money +because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present +certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which +year you receive that and so on. + +So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about +that sort of thing. + +Mr. JENNER. This is what he said anyway? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with +him--so I don't know. + +So, shortly after that, after we came here--you see, how we met him, +my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University; +and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were +looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which +also would give her the possibility to work in her profession--and not +be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job--which was +very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist--though +we have a dozen of them here. But--so Bouhe gave us--he said, "There +is a Russian geologist"--so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De +Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good--beautiful office in First +National Bank. So---- + +Mr. JENNER. And that's how you met De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's how we met De Mohrenschildt. + +So, my wife worked there for about---- + +Mr. JENNER. She worked in his office? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, for half a day--part-time. + +Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have +anything but you can--I want to bring my files in order, you know, and +you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start +with--and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking +for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I +have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and +all your work." + +So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day--she worked +half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife +only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she +moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he +retired--which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my +wife worked for Henry Rogatz. + +And De Mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his +office. + +Mr. JENNER. What year was this? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he divorced his wife--that was 1956, I would +say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that +winter--1955 or 1956--and finally he divorced her and after--sometimes +after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly +he closed his office but that must be around 1956. + +And then he--after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is +no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard +for him because he has, you know--he had some kind of accident, as I +understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and +he has difficulties to concentrate--and, therefore, he has to have an +office where he can--you know, some job which he can walk a little, +consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's +what he explained to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Not follow a regimen--be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come +back at 2---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that--just +physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work--to look for +foreign assignments; he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid +Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind +of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are +some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can--if +you find the right man you will get a job. + +So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and +finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much +because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other +way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there +for about a year. So, that was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was he married then? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; he was not married at that time. + +Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French +woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel---- + +Mr. JENNER. He met her. + +Mr. VOSHININ. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh +Hotel--because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce +and she was living there---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce--and she +was also living there? + +Mr. VOSHININ. She was also living there--yes. + +She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to +different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to +New York to sell--her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los +Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her +fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was--so, she +was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in +love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say +a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying +she was a French woman. + +Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about +his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't +understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she +came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question +her about that--because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"--he +says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all. + +And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from +China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't +know--and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in +China? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her +father's name was Fomenko, she said--[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o--who was +an engineer on the East Chinese Railroad---- + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Can you describe De Mohrenschildt's personality? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, do you want the further travelings as far as I know? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; please. + +Mr. VOSHININ. So, after--well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of +that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there. + +Mr. JENNER. His present wife? + +Mr. VOSHININ. His present wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, his present wife was not his wife? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. They were very much in love, you know--and her husband +who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George +De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"--and there was +some kind of--we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very +cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that +he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment. +And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who +was running constantly De Mohrenschildt--and all kinds of things like +that. + +Mr. JENNER. A lot of cloak and dagger? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they +divorced--she divorced her husband--and, you know, he is now in an +insane--had some kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now +in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what. + +Mr. JENNER. In California? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In California; yes. Bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not +Le Gon. + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had +somebody try it yesterday. Would you---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. If you give me a pencil, I may try it. + +(After writing name, as set out above, hands paper to Mr. Jenner.) + +I think that's it. + +Mr. JENNER. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an +accurate spelling. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Her daughter still keeps this name. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her daughter's first name--the one you now have in +mind? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Christina. + +Mr. JENNER. Christina. And she also had a child--Alexandra? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know anything about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of +Alexandra? + +Mr. VOSHININ. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know +their names. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My +wife probably knows them. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl--and her +husband, too. They are quite different from the parents. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mr. VOSHININ. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an +assignment in Ghana--which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a +pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us +a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short +article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal +stamps--Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a +representative of a Swedish company." + +Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those +jerks--they don't know anything." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect +that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a +Swedish company? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in +there--but it said, "As a representative,"--and he said that it would +be this Swedish company. + +Mr. JENNER. He said that it was a Swedish company? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company, +you know. + +Mr. JENNER. But it did mention De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and +specialist in stamps"--and so on. + +And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps? +Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?" + +"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they +don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also +provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has +trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in +Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what +parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil +leases and assign--and sign some kind of contract with them--with the +Government of Ghana--in their name, and came back to Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And then he returned to Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has +interests in Nigeria--and he says, "you know, I am Swedish--so they +rely on me." + +The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are +many geologists in Sweden itself--but perhaps they don't have oil +specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and the other members of the community think that +he was exaggerating or this was all fictional? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that. + +Mr. JENNER. When the Ghana newspaper said that? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print +that newspaper--I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates +a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of +whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk +much more than he actually is. + +Mr. JENNER. At least, he tended to exaggerate? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Everybody with whom he was associated? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, are--or to whom he met--that he was a, you know, +big businessman, big oil man, and so on--big specialist. And he wrote +an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia, +his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State +Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually +in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he--and it was said, you +know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about +himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that +Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a +consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there +was--all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of +course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to +Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after--when he came back from +Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on +the state of affairs in Yugoslavia--"And I gave quite a lecture there +to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and +listened to me." You know, that kind of talk. + +So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and +a second time in Yugoslavia--but I didn't hear it from him. I just +heard that as a rumor. + +And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden, +after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And, +you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends +and relatives--so he said he stayed there for a week, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. When was this? When did this take place? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957, +1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to +Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has +cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get +even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit +Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that. +And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said +that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was +much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And, +besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course, +one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time of that, please? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That was 1960, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the +preparations for the Cuban invasion? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean +our Cuban invasion? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion--but there +was an invasion of Cuba. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I take that from the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it +was in 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on +speaking terms at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there come about a break in friendship with De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; but that was about the time when they left on their +trip. + +Mr. JENNER. They were supposed to do what? + +Mr. VOSHININ. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a +city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by +them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border, +you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American +married with a Mexican girl--a very rich man living near Eagle Pass. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his name? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Tito Harper, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Harper? Tito Harper? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never +met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people, +big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on +both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George. + +And, from there, he went to Torreon--I don't know why Torreon--and +I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old +Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by +foot--having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their +belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the +dog--I mean, the dog rode the mule--and that way they traveled, you +know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. +In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because +it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main +highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the +hills. + +And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for +example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the +top--which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the +lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he +made the movie--it's real exciting--a colored movie and that red lava +flowing--you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, +they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it. + +And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City +they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend--also a very +rich man there of Russian background on Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his name? + +Mr. VOSHININ. He's dead now. + +Mr. JENNER. He's dead? Did he mention his name? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, he was--I'm bad on names. His first name was +Michel--which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is, +I don't know--Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local +businessman on Haiti, and he died since. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to +church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only +time she was in the church--because she's more antireligious than he is. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "she," you mean Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt--yes. Because he's not religious, +not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. But she---- + +Mr. JENNER. He's not antagonistic to religion but she is? + +Mr. VOSHININ. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came--and she cried +in the church. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, which church is this? Here in Dallas or in Haiti? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Here. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. VOSHININ. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died +after--pretty soon, and they came to the church--which puzzled our +pastor very much, Father Royster--and they asked for a church service. + +Mr. JENNER. They asked to have a mass said for the deceased Mr. +Brightman? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he +would like to look for another assignment. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back, +or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home +there of some people, I think, from Arizona--Hilton or Tilton? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No--not that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala +while the Cuban refugees were being trained? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; I didn't hear about that. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't? All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. You see, they didn't write us from their trip. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr. +and Mrs. Ballen. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] B-a-l-l-e-n--Sam Ballen? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Sam Ballen is a friend of theirs? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was +a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to +know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every +day in Rogatz' office. + +Mr. JENNER. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is +that correct? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration +of George--which I can't share too well. I think George is a very +interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him--taking, of course, 30 +or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always +interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, +always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a +certain talent of observation. + +You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has +it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a +few pages from that book. + +Mr. DAVIS. Is that George Bouhe? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually +dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. And he left Dallas for the Haiti assignment when? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, somewhere in the spring last year. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you +anything? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he showed us a newspaper again. + +Mr. JENNER. What newspaper? + +Mr. VOSHININ. From Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. And to what effect was the article in the paper? + +Mr. VOSHININ. It was more than a page. + +Mr. JENNER. More than a page? + +Mr. VOSHININ. It may--it was more than a page and it was the official +newspaper of the Government of Haiti--which was a contract between the +Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.--not George +De Mohrenschildt himself--to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the +sum of--I don't remember exactly--about $300,000; in which it said that +Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a +magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals--oil and other +minerals. + +Mr. JENNER. In Haiti? + +Mr. VOSHININ. For the country of Haiti--and I think the contract is for +2 years. + +I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody--Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt--in which it was said that a contract was signed between +our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt +is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with +his wonderful wife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more +words written about how wonderful she was--so she told--showed it to +everybody. Well, that's only human--"They say I'm a wonderful woman!" + +Mr. JENNER. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De +Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. While they were here in Dallas before they left for Haiti? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It +was on a short trip to sign the contract. + +Mr. JENNER. They took at least one or more short trips to Haiti---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Until they had these contracts signed? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then they left permanently for 2 years? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was in the spring of 1963, that they left? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you +saw the newspaper account---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Printed in the Haiti paper? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--in French. + +Mr. JENNER. In French? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've +been talking about, saw? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well--after they left, that's it. + +Mr. JENNER. That's it. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card +from them and the Christmas greeting--that was all. + +Mr. JENNER. That's about all? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's about all. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United +States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by +them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their +meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, this was before that trip. + +Mr. JENNER. It was? Tell us about that, please. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot--they +made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip. + +Mr. JENNER. That was by more conventional means of transportation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't +know. I think they mostly traveled by car. + +I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and +then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas. + +And we heard--I don't know from whom we heard--that they met Mikoyan. I +imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think--I imagine so. But then +I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't like the fact that they had met Mikoyan? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan--being a top Communist--Mr. +Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So, +whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with +Mikoyan? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about? +And she told me that it was just meant as a joke--namely that at that +time there was a Soviet exhibition of some kind---- + +Mr. JENNER. In Mexico City. + +Mr. VOSHININ. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present +there. And one day--and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by +Mexican security and Soviet security--and it was one moment he was +televised--you know, when he was televised--she just jumped out of the +crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr. +Mikoyan. What are you doing?" + +And she said, "He was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps I'll kill +him." + +But, so, he said, "Who are you?" + +And she said, "I'm a Russian living in America." + +And he asked, "What you want?" + +And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave--and +she left. + +So, she says that's all that it was--she said. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the +thing is about. + +Mr. JENNER. You wanted to know? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wanted to know from her--because if she would go, +you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk +with her at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. But a joke--well De Mohrenschildt and his wife--they are +peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they unconventional people? + +Mr. VOSHININ. They are the most unconventional people I ever have seen. + +Mr. JENNER. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and +things they do? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, +a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, +trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And +he goes out very often without a tie or open breast--completely open +breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state--and without +shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see +him perfectly dressed. + +Mr. JENNER. He's unpredictable? + +Mr. VOSHININ. He is absolutely unpredictable--and I think even he knows +he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to +whom he went. My wife told me about that. + +Mr. JENNER. From all this, do you have an impression of the De +Mohrenschildts--either one of them--as to their possible connection +with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think +they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you +think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality? + +Mr. VOSHININ. It may be; it may not be. I'm not--you know, now all of +us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the +other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times. + +Mr. JENNER. You're rationalizing at the moment? + +Mr. VOSHININ. We are rationalizing--all of us--at that moment. Of +course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other. + +I can tell you what she told us. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. She told us that her first husband was a former Communist. + +Mr. JENNER. Her first husband was the---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Bogoiavlensky. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Who is now in a mental institution in California? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that he was a Communist? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; in his young days. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, when you say "Communist"--an active member of the +Communist Party? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it +was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. But of some kind--I don't know what the official name +of the organization may be--but it was some kind of Communist Youth +Organization. + +So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and +they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of +whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said +that it's her influence was to break up--that he break up all his ties +with the Communists. And come to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. That was her desire? + +Mr. VOSHININ. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what +her first husband did--that they broke off with the Communists and +come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my +husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party." + +That's her story. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese +Communist regime--because she was saying that they do a lot of good +developing her beloved native country. + +Mr. JENNER. China? + +Mr. VOSHININ. China. + +When she said--mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure +Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that." + +On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should +not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda--because they shot my +father." + +That's what she said. + +But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for +China or not was, you know, coming back and back. + +Mr. JENNER. Repeated? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife +and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, +you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again +somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife +and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject? + +Mr. VOSHININ. On this subject. + +But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that +they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like--she didn't like +that. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt didn't like that. + +She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian +music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even +anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I +don't know what. + +And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the +world government." She was very much for the world government, you +know, and things like that--international institutions and--uh; but, +on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the +wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"--she +would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor +father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, +what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," +and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my +father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective." + +Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with +women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will +probably tell you. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did you become acquainted at any time---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. May I say something in addition? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Because that's what I said about her. + +What his concern--I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian +Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there +and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful +things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I +tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before +and there was nothing just to save it from. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very +enthusiastic and--about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him +they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before--and +that Communists did not build them--but he would somehow always, was +always enthusiastic about that. + +Mr. JENNER. About Yugoslavia? + +Mr. VOSHININ. About Yugoslavia and the Yugoslavia regime. + +Mr. JENNER. And its regime as well? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Its regime as well. That's true. + +About China, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk. + +So, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people. + +Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts are leftists? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the +other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat. + +Mr. JENNER. He had never voted for a Democrat? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican--and +they argued between themselves the whole time. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among +themselves--because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes +tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective. + +Mr. JENNER. Induce her to be a little more objective? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she was always bitterly to the left. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet either Lee or Marina Oswald? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; thank God! + +Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when you heard about Lee or Marina Oswald? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us the circumstances. + +Mr. VOSHININ. I read in the newspaper, Dallas Herald, about them. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short +article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally +came back with a Russian wife. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in June of 1962--just to orient you. You saw that +item in the newspaper? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the +people you've told us about? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard--we +visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? + +Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. An attorney in Fort Worth? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you +know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet +Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant +and bitter fellow--and they wouldn't like to see him again--something +like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to +meet them either, you know--and especially, you know, you don't like +any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" +people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum--as +he was described to us. He--Oswald. + +So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other +prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as +our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just +very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we +really need something, you know, an address or some information of that +kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that--better than +bringing to us anybody. + +But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and +the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and +young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has +a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on--they +don't have a penny and nobody gives them a job, and things like that. +And "would you like to meet them?" + +Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from +Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet +him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind +of people." + +So, I said that very insistently--so the De Mohrenschildts knew better +than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have +happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There +was always a possibility of that kind. But, thank God---- + +Mr. JENNER. But it never happened? + +Mr. VOSHININ. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them +from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the impression, did you not--or did you--that the +De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to +assist them? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was--only one time he was very bitter about +Oswald when he beat up his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he +said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he +is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't +just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You +always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened." + +I understand that she liked Lee much more than he did. + +Mr. JENNER. That Mrs. De Mohrenschildt liked Lee much more than George +did? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +This fellow De Mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke +arguments? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; he liked that. Yes; sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe him physically. Is he a handsome man? A big man? +Athletic? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis +player--always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; +and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And +he devoted always a lot of time to sports---- + +Mr. JENNER. And was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. And she tried to do it, too. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. What else can I tell you? + +Well, I know that he--the way he talks, you know, he talks for and +against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the +Bohemian Club? + +Mr. JENNER. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was +argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any +argument? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever +anybody would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and I think he enjoyed it. + +Mr. JENNER. He was extreme in his argumentation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was +some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he +made a lecture in the Bohemian Club. + +The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people--Dallasites--who like +to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably +who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], +Bill Hudson--I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you a member of the Bohemian Club? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the +Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture. + +Mr. JENNER. You were present on that occasion? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I was present on that occasion. + +And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army. +That was an army composed of Russian--Soviet Russian prisoners of war +who wanted to fight the Communists. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the name of this army? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Vlassov [spelling] V-l-a-s-s-o-v. + +And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected +a lot of praise for such people like Himmler. + +Mr. JENNER. Heinrich Himmler? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the +conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all." + +You know, that's typically George. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he +was just attempting to provoke shock? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially +there were, at least, three Jewish people there present--Sam Ballen and +Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't--was, became red, +terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know, +would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face +of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what +effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev +was terribly bitter--and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to +drink vodka the whole night. So, well--that's the type of person you +have. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is +about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any +event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought +out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in +its investigation? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state it, please? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did +not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better +than I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is that? + +Mr. VOSHININ. For example, Mr. Basil Zavoico. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now give us that full name and spell it, please? + +Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l--that's the first name. Second is +Z-a-v-o-i-c-o--or k-o--I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and +he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please? + +Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico +because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife +we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows +George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even +warned us against him. + +Mr. JENNER. Warned you against De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt," +he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks +so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is." + +And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we +came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your +interest. + +I don't know whether you questioned another person--it's Mr. Paul +Raigorodsky. + +Mr. JENNER. You've mentioned him before--at the first of this +deposition? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian +immigrant that--whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely +everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the +Stoneleigh Hotel--and still living there. + +Mr. JENNER. He is? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only +occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] G-r-a-f-f? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff--who worked for George as a +secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still +was, one part of the time, maintaining his office in the Republic +Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows +a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked +there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs. +Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them +and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had +written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has +seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to +sell. + +Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie +who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie. + +Mr. JENNER. Are they residents of Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now +living in Birmingham--you know, near Detroit. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter +attended school in Birmingham. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was +here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank--and +that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his +secretary--part-time, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Where do Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie live? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie on Hanover. + +Mr. JENNER. Hanover Street? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Hanover Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; they are Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. They are? + +Mr. VOSHININ. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent--but his +wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about +the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, +and all that. + +Mr. JENNER. They may know something about the Oswalds, too? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. I don't know one way or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. But they moved in this circle that you've described? + +Mr. VOSHININ. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which +always strikes me peculiar--I just talked last night with my wife about +that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to +Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I +have to go to Houston on business." And he would say--of course, you +don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his +business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody, +of course, asked him. + +And he would say, "You know, I have to go--you know, all my business +goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you +know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington--and here +he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or +5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife +heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business +there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in +foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even +before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once +talking this with my wife and wondering--what in the hell is he doing +in Houston? + +You don't get foreign assignments through Houston--not that we know +about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never +mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can +give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know--may not +know but may know--who knows something because Professor Jitkoff---- + +Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please. + +Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. + +Mr. JENNER. And at what institution is he a professor? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Rice Institute. The head of the department of the Rice +Institute. + +Mr. JENNER. What department? + +Mr. VOSHININ. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De +Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston--I +know, that, too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very +respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As +anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times +that George and Jeanne dropped in--which is not her name. Her name is +Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see. + +But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston. +There is a vague possibility of that--because that always sounded +peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they +live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e--in Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we can reach him if he is a professor at Rice +Institute. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course, +before we ever came here. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else occur to you? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her +fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet +consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to +them--but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are +not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City. +So, there is a slight possibility--but this is just speculation on my +part--that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also +to sell them some fashions--though I don't know, but this is possible, +you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know, +wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't want any part of them at all? + +Mr. VOSHININ. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you +know, is going there to buy dictionaries--you know, and things like +that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New +York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you +know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Of going directly? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Of going directly to deal with all of them, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the +Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to the +time---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Up to their departure. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time the De Mohrenschildts left for Haiti? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, +of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips--a trip +every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time +they left, and even might have been prior to 1962? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, yeah, they may; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the +fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston? + +Mr. VOSHININ. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De +Mohrenschildts became a nuisance. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And that was when? + +Mr. VOSHININ. And then we started recollecting about the De +Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So, +that probably was late 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. VOSHININ. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to +visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were +being made in September of 1963? + +Mr. VOSHININ. In September of 1963, they were not here. + +Mr. JENNER. So, they weren't here then? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; they left--I don't know which month they left for +Haiti--but I think they left way before September. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you know whether either of the De +Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the +spring of 1963? + +Mr. VOSHININ. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether they have or haven't been? + +Mr. VOSHININ. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And +I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they +are--Kirken. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Or whatever he calls himself--that's Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken. +K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call him _Kirten_ [phonetic]. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] K-a-r-t-o-n? + +Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n--or o-n--I don't know. They +dropped in when they came from Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. They were here recently? + +Mr. VOSHININ. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and +they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they +left--they couldn't stand that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George +De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was +responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, I heard that story; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From whom did you hear it? And give us your recollection of +it. + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think that--uh--well, I heard it from my wife, to tell +the truth. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll talk to her about that. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens, +maybe--or maybe from the children. + +I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving +ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving +ridiculously--he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to +shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very +unpleasant scenes." + +Mr. JENNER. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements +by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually +about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he +became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand +it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. They are okay. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you +would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or +pertinent? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, not that I know at the present time, but---- + +Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week +and the week afterwards---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Could you give me a telephone or anything? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and +somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or +some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney, +Mr. Sanders--Barefoot Sanders---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I know. + +Mr. JENNER. And he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of +us. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Okay. Probably my wife will recollect a lot of things. + +Mr. JENNER. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there +anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out +that you think ought to be on the record? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Of what, for example? + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask +you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is +making? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Not that I know, unless you recall something. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything which was stated by you---- + +Mr. VOSHININ. You know De Mohrenschildt has here a brother? + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. His brother--he's a professor, according to your +information where? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Dartmouth. + +Mr. JENNER. At Dartmouth College? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I think he's perfectly okay--a very serious person. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, you know his three wives--his former wives? + +Mr. JENNER. I've asked you about that. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, his first wife, I think lives in Paris. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. VOSHININ. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist +of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth +wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time +about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the +judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know. You ask--perhaps you have---- + +Mr. JENNER. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions +you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, +I'll let you know. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just +across the street you can call me any time. + +Mr. JENNER. What we usually do is to have the Secret Service call you. + +Mr. VOSHININ. They're in the same building--two floors higher than me. +They can just call me up two stories up. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. We'll close this deposition now. + +You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's +typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read +it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to +modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This +young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this +perhaps written up during the course of the next week. + +If you will call in--and also talk to Mr. Sanders--he will know when, +and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for +examination. + +Mr. VOSHININ. Can I take it home and read it or do I have to come here? + +Mr. JENNER. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the +right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at +whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy. + +Mr. VOSHININ. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures +and for my records to have at home. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You make arrangements with this young lady. + +Mr. VOSHININ. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay--and if +there is any way I can help, please--I'd just tell everything I know +without any hesitation. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I tried to pick your brain for everything I could +think of. + +Mr. DAVIS. We do appreciate it--and thank you, sir. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. + +Page 48: "Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in" did not +show "Evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected +here. + +Page 156: "When did teach there?" probably is missing "you". + +Page 214: "Executive Order No. 1130" should be "11130". + +Page 223: "He likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in +italics. + +Page 231: "Approximately hold old" should be "how". + +Page 308: "Section 11, page 8" may be misprint for "Section II, page 8" + +Page 330: "Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner" was misprinted as "Mrs. +BATES. I am Albert E. Jenner" with "BATES" in small-caps, followed by a +period, indicating that Mrs. Bates was the speaker. Changed here. + +Page 333: "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe +before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin. + +Page 363: "special train from" probably should be "training". + +Page 369: "It took 2 years of something" was printed that way. + +Page 390: "As far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas". + +Page 427: "in Varna Pleven" is missing a comma after "Varna". + +Page 458: "French woman, And he met her" was printed that way. + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings +Vol. VIII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44008 *** |