diff options
Diffstat (limited to '44007.txt')
| -rw-r--r-- | 44007.txt | 59583 |
1 files changed, 0 insertions, 59583 deletions
diff --git a/44007.txt b/44007.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 727abfe..0000000 --- a/44007.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,59583 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings Vol. -VII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44007] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V7 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V" symbols are denoted as =V=. Italicized -words are denoted with _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ VII - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII: -Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K. -Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J. -M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens, -William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam -Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity -of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey -Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour -Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C. -N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts, -John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E. -Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W. -Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks, -Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee -Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or -observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; -William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the -purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis, -who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill -Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper, -William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas -School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a -parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of -the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of -the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into -the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas -police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal -Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert -with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper -in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the -assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the -motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers, -assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and -testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade; -Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former -Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the -motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder, -who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda -K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove -Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the -morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, -Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar -Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue -William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the -positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus, -a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert -A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms -identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert -Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity -of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms -store in Dallas. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Johnny Calvin Brewer 1 - Julia Postal 8 - Warren H. Burroughs 14 - Bob K. Carroll 17 - Thomas Alexander Hutson 26 - C. T. Walker 34 - Gerald Lynn Hill 43 - J. M. Poe 66 - John Gibson 70 - James Putnam 74 - Rio S. Pierce 76 - Calvin Bud Owens 78 - William Arthur Smith 82 - George Jefferson Applin, Jr 85 - Ray Hawkins 91 - L. D. Montgomery 96 - Marvin Johnson 100 - Seymour Weitzman 105 - W. R. Westbrook 109 - Elmer L. Boyd 119 - Robert Lee Studebaker 137 - C. N. Dhority 149, 380 - Richard M. Sims 158 - Richard S. Stovall 186 - Walter Eugene Potts 195 - John P. Adamcik 202 - Henry M. Moore 212 - F. M. Turner 217 - Guy F. Rose 227 - W. E. Perry 232 - Richard L. Clark 235 - Don R. Ables 239 - Daniel Gutierrez Lujan 243 - C. W. Brown 246 - L. C. Graves 251 - James R. Leavelle 260 - W. E. Barnes 270 - J. B. Hicks 286 - Harry D. Holmes 289, 525 - James W. Bookhout 308 - Manning C. Clements 318 - Gregory Lee Olds 322 - H. Louis Nichols 325 - Forrest V. Sorrels 332, 592 - William J. Waldman 360 - Mitchell J. Scibor 370 - Heinz W. Michaelis 372 - J. C. Cason 379 - Roy S. Truly 380, 591 - Warren Caster 386 - Eddie Piper 388 - William H. Shelley 390 - Edward Shields 393 - Sam Guinyard 395 - J. C. Day 401 - Thomas J. Kelley 403, 590 - J. W. Fritz 403 - Mary Jane Robertson 404 - Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 410 - James C. Cadigan 418 - Earlene Roberts 439 - Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough 439 - Kenneth P. O'Donnell 440 - Lawrence F. O'Brien 457 - David F. Powers 472 - Clifton C. Carter 474 - Earle Cabell 476 - Mrs. Earle Cabell 485 - Philip L. Willis 492 - Linda Kay Willis 498 - Helen Markham 499 - Mrs. Donald Baker 507 - James W. Altgens 515 - Buell Wesley Frazier 531 - Joe Marshall Smith 531 - Welcome Eugene Barnett 539 - Eddy Raymond Walthers 544 - James Thomas Tague 552 - Emmett J. Hudson 558 - Edgar Leon Smith, Jr 565 - Abraham Zapruder 569 - Perdue William Lawrence 577 - Ronald G. Wittmus 590 - Robert A. Frazier 590 - Cortlandt Cunningham 591 - Charles L. Killion 591 - John Joe Howlett 592 - Marrion L. Baker 592 - Robert Brock 593 - Mary Brock 593 - Harold Russell 594 - David Goldstein 594 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Page - Baker Exhibit No. 1 512 - Barnes Exhibit: - A 273 - B 273 - C 273 - D 273 - E 273 - F 275 - Brock (Mary) Exhibit A. 593 - Brock (Robert) Exhibit A. 593 - Cabell Exhibit No. 1 476 - Cadigan Exhibit No.: - 1 419 - 2 419 - 3 419 - 3-A 420 - 4 420 - 5 421 - 6 421 - 7 421 - 8 421 - 9 421 - 10 421 - 11 423 - 12 424 - 13 424 - 14 425 - 15 428 - 16 428 - 17 428 - 18 428 - 19 428 - 20 429 - 21 429 - 22 431 - 23 432 - 24 432 - 25 436 - 26 437 - 27 437 - 28 437 - 29 437 - 30 437 - Dhority Exhibit: - A 154 - B 154 - Gibson Exhibit A 71 - Hill Exhibit: - A 50 - B 52 - C 53 - Holmes Exhibit No.: - 1 292 - 1-A 527 - 2 294 - 2-A 528 - 3 295 - 3-A 529 - 4 297 - 5 307 - 6 307 - Hudson Exhibit No. 1 562 - Kelley Exhibit A 403 - Lawrence Exhibit No.: - 1 579 - 2 585 - 3 586 - 4 589 - Leavelle Exhibit A. 270 - Markham Exhibit No.: - 1 500 - 2 505 - Michaelis Exhibit No.: - 1 374 - 2 377 - 3 377 - 4 378 - 5 378 - Moore Exhibit No. 1 214 - Nichols Exhibit A 332 - Potts Exhibit: - A-1 198 - A-2 198 - B 202 - C 202 - Putnam Exhibit No. 1 75 - Robertson Exhibit No.: - 1 406 - 2 406 - 3 409 - Russell Exhibit A 594 - Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.: - 1 410 - 2 410 - 3 410 - 4 410 - 5 413 - 6 416 - 7 417 - Sims Exhibit A 182 - Sorrels Exhibit No.: - 4 341 - 5 360 - Stovall Exhibit: - A 190 - B 193 - C 195 - D 195 - Studebaker Exhibit: - A 139 - B 139 - C 140 - D 141 - E 142 - F 144 - G 145 - H 146 - I 146 - J 147 - Tague Exhibit No. 1 556 - Turner Exhibit No. 1 222 - Waldman Exhibit No.: - 1 361 - 2 363 - 3 363 - 4 364 - 5 364 - 6 366 - 7 366 - 8 366 - 9 367 - 10 367 - Weitzman Exhibit: - D 108 - E 108 - F 108 - Westbrook Exhibit: - A 114 - B 117 - C 117 - D 117 - Willis Exhibit No. 1 497 - Yarborough Exhibit A 440 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER - -The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April -2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BREWER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. BREWER. Johnny Calvin Brewer. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Brewer? - -Mr. BREWER. Twenty-two. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. BREWER. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102. - -Mr. BELIN. What city and state? - -Mr. BREWER. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? - -Mr. BREWER. Born in Miami, Okla. - -Mr. BELIN. In Oklahoma? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you move to Texas? - -Mr. BREWER. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a -construction company and we moved to Texas. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir? - -Mr. BREWER. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to -Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10 -years in Lockhart. - -Mr. BELIN. You graduated from high school? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school? - -Mr. BREWER. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San -Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's -Shoe Store. I--that was in September, and I got married in December. -And I have been with them ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store? - -Mr. BREWER. In September of 1961. - -Mr. BELIN. Do they assign you to any particular store? - -Mr. BREWER. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for -about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a -store down on Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman? - -Mr. BREWER. I was assistant manager. - -Mr. BELIN. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the address of that shop in Dallas? - -Mr. BREWER. 213 West Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. They made you the manager of that shop? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been manager? - -Mr. BREWER. Since August of 1962. - -Mr. BELIN. From August 1962 on? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Until the present time? - -Mr. BREWER. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store. - -Mr. BELIN. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d? - -Mr. BREWER. Second. - -Mr. BELIN. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were -firing me, but it turned out they weren't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you? - -Mr. BREWER. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, -that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be considered a promotion? - -Mr. BREWER. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would -be considered a promotion. - -Mr. BELIN. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the -day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about -the assassination, Mr. Brewer? - -Mr. BREWER. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, -just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the -bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all -there was. We listened to all of the events. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died? - -Mr. BREWER. I heard a rumor. They said that--one of the Secret Service -men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio -concerning anything that happened that afternoon? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what -they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too -much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated -them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BELIN. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard -on the radio that an officer had been shot? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson -headed toward West Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson? - -Mr. BREWER. Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. How far is Beckley from your store? - -Mr. BREWER. Two blocks. - -Mr. BELIN. Two blocks to the east or to the west? - -Mr. BREWER. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and -the next street is Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street -is Beckley? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, right. - -Mr. BELIN. Is your store located to the north or south side of -Jefferson? - -Mr. BREWER. On the north. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BREWER. I looked up and out towards the street and the police -cars---- - -Mr. BELIN. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all? - -Mr. BREWER. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I -looked up and saw the man enter the lobby. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you -to describe how is--how wide is your store, approximately? - -Mr. BREWER. About 20 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the -sidewalk? - -Mr. BREWER. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the -sidewalk, front doors. - -Mr. BELIN. The front doors? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show -windows on each side. - -Mr. BELIN. This would be, if we were--if we would take a look at the -letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom -part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the -letter, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the -sidewalk and your front door, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as -this lobby area? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street. - -Mr. BELIN. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he -stepped into this lobby area? - -Mr. BREWER. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped -in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did he make the U-turn? - -Mr. BREWER. At Zangs. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the sirens going away? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where -the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when -they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around -and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you -know who the man was at the time you saw him? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you describe the man you saw? - -Mr. BREWER. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150 -pounds is all. - -Mr. BELIN. How tall are you, by the way? - -Mr. BREWER. Six three. - -Mr. BELIN. So you say he was about 5'9"? - -Mr. BREWER. About 5'9". - -Mr. BELIN. And about 150? - -Mr. BREWER. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His -shirt tail was out. - -Mr. BELIN. Any jacket? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What color of trousers, do you remember? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Light or dark? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed? - -Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way? - -Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Light complexioned or dark? - -Mr. BREWER. Light complexioned. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store -there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension -of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward---- - -Mr. BELIN. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not? - -Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going -away? - -Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Going the other way? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How could you tell? - -Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do? - -Mr. BREWER. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West -Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched -him, and he went into the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that? - -Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man? - -Mr. BREWER. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had -seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. -And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed -funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been -running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in -your lobby there? - -Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared. - -Mr. BELIN. He stared? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise? - -Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there -staring. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you -saw him walk into the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BREWER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the -theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket -to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. -She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in -there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen -him. - -So I walked in and Butch Burroughs---- - -Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs? - -Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and -takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if -he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that -description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and -hadn't seen anybody. - -And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits -were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why. - -I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket? - -Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in. - -Mr. BELIN. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box -office? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the -theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see -him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all -the other buildings. - -Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him -purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking? - -Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box -office. - -Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you -walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket? - -Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. You just asked her? - -Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go -in. - -Mr. BELIN. She--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you -remember? - -Mr. BREWER. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description -going in. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do? - -Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. -First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to -the back and it hadn't been opened. - -Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and -a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you -close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to -close it from the inside. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside? - -Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock. - -Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked -around but we couldn't see anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see -him? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time? - -Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark -and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20. -I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs? - -Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there? - -Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard -a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. - -But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went -back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him. - -Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went--Butch went to -the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood -there until the police came. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights -on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him? - -Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from -the back, toward the back. - -Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know -exactly which row he was in from the back? - -Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? - -Mr. BREWER. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then -he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there -was no place I could see. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin -with? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the -alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on -the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a -couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing -there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was -suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there. - -And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him -out. - -And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I -pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of -the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the -back. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald -stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, -and this man hit Patrolman McDonald. - -Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was -Patrolman McDonald? - -Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few -times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man? - -Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to -the show. - -Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first? - -Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who? - -Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the -seats. And then real quick he was back up. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say he was---- - -Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second -and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward -that, and I saw this gun come up and--in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the -air. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air? - -Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun." - -And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun -away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, -still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who -it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they -were hitting him. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him -and they took him out. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the -handcuffs on him? - -Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald -stopped fighting? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around -and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not -resisting arrest." And they took him on outside. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, -whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them -aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all -the people that were in the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you -referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble -or concrete? - -Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo. - -Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him? - -Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far were you from the front door? - -Mr. BREWER. Ten feet. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store -and watched him. - -Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out -in front of your store? - -Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture -store. What is the name of that? - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know--notice how fast this man was walking? - -Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual. - -Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I -don't really know what I was thinking about. - -Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the -theatre? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store? - -Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet--yards. - -Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you -do? - -Mr. BREWER. Then I walked toward the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the -theatre did the police come in, if you can remember? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came -in? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way -bears on this? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked -"Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that -looks like the shirt you saw the man wear? - -Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in -the elbows at all, or not? - -Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice. - -Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt? - -Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before. - -Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything -other than "I am not resisting arrest."? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it? - -Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was. - -Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before -or after they had the handcuffs on him? - -Mr. BREWER. After. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back -and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing -of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. -Do you have any preference on it? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. -I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we -first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded -in this written testimony? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as -stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I -just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell -you what I thought the story was? - -Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mr. BREWER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take -the time to be here. We thank you very much. - -Mr. BREWER. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL - -The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in -the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address, please? - -Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just -in general. - -Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here -to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out -there. - -Mr. BALL. Finished high school there? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it. - -Mr. BALL. In California? - -Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and -came back here. I have been here ever since. - -Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and -officework in connection with theatres. - -Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, -and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in -the office. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; -really, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where? - -Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas--really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at -the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there? - -Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24. - -Mr. BALL. Same theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and -then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until -they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box -office and worked until 5. - -Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets. - -Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with -school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, -because it is just straight through. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your -box office open? - -Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes -later or something, but that is our regular hours. - -Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around -12:45, 1 o'clock? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and -ticket. - -Mr. BALL. What was his name? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch. - -Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession -counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you -go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and -steps insides, and tears tickets. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we -opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little -transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were -saying again that he had been shot. - -Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President -Kennedy was dead or---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box -office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official -report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone -wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came -out and said that he was officially dead. - -Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, -did you? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about--it was just about -the time all chaos broke loose. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you -opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Some. - -Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24. - -Mr. BALL. Twenty-four? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything -was happening so fast. - -Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets? - -Mrs. POSTAL. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. What was the price of admission? - -Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 -cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket. - -Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't. - -Mr. BALL. Same price? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see -any activity on the street? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer -had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on -Thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time I heard the -sirens--police was racing back and forth. - -Mr. BALL. On Jefferson? - -Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, -"Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, -so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got -in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were -going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know -it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, -Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that -particular theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh. - -Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west. - -Mr. BALL. Its siren on? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast. - -Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, -why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see -the man that ducked? This man that you were---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--I don't -know if you are familiar with the theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre. - -Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In -other words, he ducked right in. - -Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on -his face, and he ducked in. - -Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you -seen him before the car went by, the police went by? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, -as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss -went that way to get in his car. - -Mr. BALL. Who is your boss? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man -ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car. - -Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from -the street? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part -of it. - -Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other -way just at the same time. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually--because I stepped out of the box -office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the -box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up -quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was -standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought -a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around -expecting to see him. - -Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in? - -Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of -business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, -"Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. -So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he -has to be there." So I told him to go back and check--we have exit -doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked -him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. -Well, he just had to be. - -Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was -just standing outside of the door, was he? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk, -and he headed for the theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It was closed? - -Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed. - -Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and -Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that -way. He had come from east going west. - -Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like--I told him--asked him to check everything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he -is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and -examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he -hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody -getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny -about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know -if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running -from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, -and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there." - -So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it -was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, -it fits the description," and I have not--I said I hadn't heard the -description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some -reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the -sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the -description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks -like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this -brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and -medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I -called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and -see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and -what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the -picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, -seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, -police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people -in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were -carrying--well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot -because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, -"I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" -And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit -used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally. - -Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you -know, and that--then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there -and---- - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre -that this officer used the phone? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It was after? - -Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They -were running. - -Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go in? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I--like I said, the public was getting there at that -time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything -and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I -remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like -this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse -(sic) language which--inside. I'd say four or five. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around -him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back. - -Mr. BALL. They were? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way. - -Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises -or cuts on his face? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see any? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh. - -Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the -reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming. - -Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they -had him. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a -live mob scene, that---- - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, -"Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out -to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming -profuse language and--"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to -him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to -Oswald--when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I didn't -know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because -he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, -and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers -was--at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to -try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read -in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, -and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke. - -Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Police station? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the -Thursday following. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on -the 4th of December. Would that be about right? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; I think. - -Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday. - -Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; -because I know I didn't go down until the following week. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on--out of the -theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, -"I'm sure we have got our man----"? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed -at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were -bringing Oswald out. - -Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do -you have any idea? - -Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along -here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is -what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door -there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right -on up in the balcony. - -Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people -do then get by him. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, -"Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going -out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran -up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch -would have seen him. - -Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second -row from the---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. Third. - -Mr. BALL. Third? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over. - -Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the -balcony down there? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and -right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring -you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's -seeing him? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something. - -Mr. BALL. And he could go in? - -Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in. - -Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look -anything like the shirt he had on? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it -is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out. - -Mr. BALL. Outside his pants? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh. - -Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in? - -Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the -corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving. - -Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. You say---- - -Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and -sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on -to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about -it? Do you want to do that? - -Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway. - -Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature? - -Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine. - -Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without -your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS - -The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please. - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I -stopped going to public school in the ninth grade. - -Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private -school 2 days a week over in Highland Park. - -Mr. BALL. You are now? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two. - -Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work -have you been doing? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as -an apprentice, he is an electrician. - -Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I -passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough -points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying -me different. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, -were you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On -weekends I usher. - -Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. During the week? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession. - -Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day. - -Mr. BALL. You do? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And, run the concession? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, -run them off? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out -and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in. - -Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you -usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket. - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and -get an admission ticket. - -Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to -work? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and -some officers, didn't you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put -in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in -front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I -was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked -up the stairs real fast. - -Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there. - -Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come -through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the -struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a -ticket? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but -I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on -upstairs before I saw him." - -Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were -cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a -shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man -came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the -show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the -exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back -out and the police caught him downstairs. - -Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through -the back and the rest of them came in through the front. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back -there? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them. - -Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in -the front? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out -to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the -parking lot, and the other two are upstairs. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any -police officer? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and -that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main -thing. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession. - -Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre -to behind the concession? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the -doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is -straight down this way and another one is straight down this way. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the -shoe salesman; what did you do? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this -door. - -Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I -stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out -to the concession. - -Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the -exit door to the concession? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No. - -Mr. BALL. There was not? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the -police? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really -couldn't tell. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when -they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my -rights," and all that. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you hear? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at -everybody. - -Mr. BALL. He was? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both -hands above his head.] - -Mr. BALL. Anything else? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a -mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and -they put him in the car and went off. - -Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him -from the theatre? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four. - -Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him -out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side. - -Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door -into the car. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of -this man, who arrested him? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the -butt of a shotgun? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written -up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your -signature right now. Which do you prefer? - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read -it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here. - -Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too. - -Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL - -The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CARROLL. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? - -Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born? - -Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High. - -Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school? - -Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at -Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and -on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go -back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on -active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released -from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went -to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them -for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas -Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas -Police Department. - -Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the -radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the -special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, -I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section -and the vice section and the administrative section. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day? - -Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. -for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that -time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day? - -Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street. - -Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform -officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one -detective for each block. - -Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main? - -Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four -blocks, maybe. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot? - -Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was -walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped -in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV -just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the -office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and -I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city -hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository? - -Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting -occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 -o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after -I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I -was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement -and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came -back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that -an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information -on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the -phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated -it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I -come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested -permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. -E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective? - -Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. -He doesn't work in uniform. - -Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes? - -Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, -but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came -out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas -Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five -blocks away--I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and -ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at -the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of -the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the -head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in -the theatre--I don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and -that was all the conversation I heard from her. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lady was? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I have no idea. - -Mr. BALL. Was it the girl who sells tickets? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever met Julia Postal? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I never have. - -Mr. BALL. And where was the lady when you talked to her? - -Mr. CARROLL. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went -through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that -he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with -her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the -balcony. All of the house lights were turned on. - -Mr. BALL. You and Lyons went in the front door then? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or -rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the -balcony. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anyone in the balcony? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, there were people sitting around there. - -Mr. BALL. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well, -the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older -people and so we started back down---- - -Mr. BALL. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for? - -Mr. CARROLL. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called -and checked about the officer. - -Mr. BALL. Who are "they"? - -Mr. CARROLL. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--I don't -know who it was at that time. - -Mr. BALL. What was the description that he gave you? - -Mr. CARROLL. He just gave a general height description and age--just -generally. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what he said. - -Mr. CARROLL. I'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and I -can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it -was all--I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a -detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how -he worded it. - -Mr. BALL. Can you give me the approximate age--around? - -Mr. CARROLL. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something, -like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and -everything like that. - -Mr. BALL. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your -memory, I suppose? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; not as to that. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't make a note of it? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see -anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over -the telephone by the dispatcher? - -Mr. CARROLL. Not that I thought fit it. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to -the lower floor when I heard someone holler something--I believe it was -"Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you -could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and -Lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and I started running and I came up -to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the -left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in -the aisle behind from the left. - -Mr. BALL. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle -and then come up on Oswald's right. - -Mr. BALL. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen? - -Mr. CARROLL. Jerry Hill--Sgt. Jerry Hill. - -Mr. BALL. And then, who came from behind? - -Mr. CARROLL. Ray Hawkins. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"? - -Mr. CARROLL. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony. - -Mr. BALL. And you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle? - -Mr. CARROLL. To the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the -lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through -the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which -row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre. - -Mr. BALL. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the -screen? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was approximately--close to the center of the second -bunch of seats. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle? - -Mr. CARROLL. I saw standing up at the time--Oswald was standing up -there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon -him. - -Mr. BALL. Where was McDonald? - -Mr. CARROLL. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I -saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side. - -Mr. BALL. Were they struggling? - -Mr. CARROLL. Everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a -pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked -the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Who had hold of that pistol at that time? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me -and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, -and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Who put them on him? - -Mr. CARROLL. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--I think it -was Ray Hawkins. - -Mr. BALL. Put them on from behind? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did---- - -Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a -shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see -that? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him? - -Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that -someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get -him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his -arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something. - -I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and -detailing it--I believe it was his right arm. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle? - -Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making -sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of -a vigorous scuffle or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then after that? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald -and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I -think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out -through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front -where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in -our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding -next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't -know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he -got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, -I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the -police station. - -Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he -hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe -those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality" -were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he -hadn't done nothing and stuff like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything? - -Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the -car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't -done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's -wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what -he said. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right -eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here, -somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real -sure. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye? - -Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car. -Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything -right there, we was trying to get him subdued. - -Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud -voice or speaking softly? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult -because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was -pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him," -or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and -after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said -anything I couldn't actually hear it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep -his mouth shut? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came -out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one -man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his -head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when -we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I -say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two -people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did -not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut. - -Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car -ask Oswald if he had shot the President? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the -President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think -most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time. - -Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at -the time? - -Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he -said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol." - -Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You -killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being -asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving -the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as -we could. - -Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it? - -Mr. CARROLL. The pistol? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt -immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the -theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill. - -Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat? - -Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I -think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting -there. - -Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I -was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly -from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the -third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right -into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our -interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery -office. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there -were several standing around there, but they would just take him and -hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and -they more or less come in and we would back off. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office. - -Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you? - -Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson, -Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with -us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't -remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but -he did come down with us. - -Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his -ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons -and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and -taken care of. - -Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before -you got to the personnel office? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it. - -Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that? - -Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I -don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he -waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the -car. - -Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets. - -Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder? - -Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six. - -Mr. BALL. Six bullets? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full. - -Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment -or not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets? - -Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them? - -Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like -bullets. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time? - -Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a -small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to -me like a hammer might have fallen on it. - -Mr. BALL. On the firing pin? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might -have fallen on the cap. - -Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap? - -Mr. CARROLL. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a -glass? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was -just a real light indent. - -Mr. BALL. That was without a glass? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel -department? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day? - -Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting -there. He was there most of the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark. - -Mr. BALL. When was this done? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office. - -Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together. - -Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald -make the mark on the gun? - -Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray -Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe -Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and -I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or -not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I -know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there -and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen -newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it -was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail -this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. -It was so jumbled up there. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally? - -Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I -had possession of it--possession of the gun. - -Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or -the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill. - -Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had -delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six -bullets? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir. - -Mr. BALL. With this group of officers? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you examined them? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. - -Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you -have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and -signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it -on to the Commission. - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch -with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down -and look it over. - -Mr. CARROLL. All right. - -Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in. - -Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED - -The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9, -1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear -that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CARROLL. I do, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Your name is? - -Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll. - -Mr. BELIN. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by -the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, -have you not? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Ball take that? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About what day was that? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day -that would be. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we -didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then -they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has -been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel -2" barrel with wooden handle. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it? - -Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw -it? - -Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my -direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time? - -Mr. CARROLL. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it -pointed in your direction? - -Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not. - -Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it? - -Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it? - -Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt. - -Mr. BELIN. And then? - -Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I -released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill. - -Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station? - -Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or -after you started up the car, if you remember? - -Mr. CARROLL. After. - -Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw -on the inside of the butt of the pistol. - -Mr. BELIN. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol? - -Mr. CARROLL. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the -pistol. - -Mr. BELIN. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is -pointing up also, is that correct? - -Mr. CARROLL. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials? - -Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol? - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you? - -Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police -department. - -Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or -wherever he had it, or not? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it? - -Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police -station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that--he -said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all." - -Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name? - -Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, -but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what -the other one was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from -the identification? - -Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. -I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned. - -Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned? - -Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally. - -Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the -station? - -Mr. CARROLL. No; I didn't hear him say anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an -address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street? - -Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what? - -Mr. CARROLL. Later that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald? - -Mr. CARROLL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it? - -Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the -city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed -this or not, that in any way might be relevant? - -Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we -took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left -him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer. - -Mr. BELIN. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and -then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it -was or was not loaded? - -Mr. CARROLL. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. How many bullets were in it? - -Mr. CARROLL. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I -recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second -trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you -first testified. - -You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign -it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive. - -Mr. CARROLL. I will sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted. - -Mr. CARROLL. All right, fine. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON - -The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April -3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you -solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HUTSON. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name? - -Mr. HUTSON. Thomas A. Hutson. - -Mr. BELIN. And your occupation? - -Mr. HUTSON. Police officer for the city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Hutson? - -Mr. HUTSON. Thirty-five years. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? - -Mr. HUTSON. Nine years. - -Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Dallas? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. High school? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Graduate of high school or not? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What school? - -Mr. HUTSON. Forest Avenue High School. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got out of high school? - -Mr. HUTSON. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general -office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk. - -Mr. BELIN. How long was that? - -Mr. HUTSON. That was in 1947, in July--that is in January of 1947, and -I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the -U.S. Army. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you serve in the Army? - -Mr. HUTSON. Four years. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? - -Mr. HUTSON. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from -there I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I -joined them in October of 1948. - -I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of -1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort -Sam Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do, basically, in Germany? - -Mr. HUTSON. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I -was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing -mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course, -you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway. - -Mr. BELIN. You got back to the States? - -Mr. HUTSON. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston, -Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and -there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics. - -Mr. BELIN. And eventually you were discharged? - -Mr. HUTSON. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there--this was -during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett, -Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was -discharged in July of 1952. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HUTSON. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas & -Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? - -Mr. HUTSON. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year, -and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the -service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the service station business? - -Mr. HUTSON. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold -my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the -Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. What year? - -Mr. HUTSON. 1955. - -Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the -fall of 1963? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have included November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; it would. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with the -Presidential motorcade on November 22? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood -Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street. - -Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade -passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed? - -Mr. HUTSON. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. To direct traffic? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back -that was surging in the street. - -Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the -signs? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. HUTSON. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19, -involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time? - -Mr. HUTSON. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the -signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United -States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this -location. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. HUTSON. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository -and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in -front of the main entrance. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main -entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do at the bottom of the steps? - -Mr. HUTSON. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, -and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two -officers. - -Mr. BELIN. You were there with two more officers? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were they? - -Mr. HUTSON. They were at the top of the stairs at the door. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know the names of these officers? - -Mr. HUTSON. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J. -B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman. - -Mr. BELIN. Were those officers there when you got there? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they motorcycle officers or not? - -Mr. HUTSON. Solo motorcycle officers. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. HUTSON. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your best judgment? - -Mr. HUTSON. Thirty minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you leave? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was relieved by my sergeant. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you let people go in that said they were employees -within the building? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused -to let anyone enter except police officers. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone leave the building? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was your back to the building? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I -assume? - -Mr. HUTSON. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there. -There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens -coming in, that is what brought the big crowd. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or -anything from the building? - -Mr. HUTSON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from -duty? - -Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come -on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a -police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on -shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that -they weren't sure on the exact location. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this at about the time you were being released? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston, -did he say Elm and Houston? - -Mr. HUTSON. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard. - -Mr. BELIN. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you -were on Main at that time? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I -made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of -time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after -you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head, yes? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard -the first notice over the police radio? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. At times you were working away from your police radio while -you were picking up the signs, is that correct? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance. - -Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak -Cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily? - -Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting? - -Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the -triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East -Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind -10th Street where the officer had been shot. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car -with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was -riding in the back seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car? - -Mr. HUTSON. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't -get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know -whether I would be able to start and go or not. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled -into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of -the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the -telephone to call in. - -I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I -mean their number to call in. - -At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher -give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at -the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson. - -I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the -officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came -running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told -them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the -suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library. - -We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to -Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library -for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into -the basement of the library. - -At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we -returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on -East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, -the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering -the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was? - -Mr. HUTSON. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location, -including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at -Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out -from the basement with their hands over their head. - -One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked -him. A sergeant was there. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding -west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East -Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered -the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any -recovery of any items of clothing? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did that occur? - -Mr. HUTSON. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the -house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the -Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white -jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it -up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The -original description was that he was wearing a white jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of jacket was it? - -Mr. HUTSON. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the zipper type? - -Mr. HUTSON. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards -away from the officer who picked it up. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard -about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. HUTSON. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He -didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on -Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn -to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way -street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of -the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of -the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, -Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door -to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting. - -I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and -not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am -not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at -the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get -in." - -I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description -and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for. - -Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me, -and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door. - -We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there -by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the -center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle -from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the -front in the center section. - -Mr. BELIN. You were on the right center or the left center? - -Mr. HUTSON. I was on the left center. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right -center aisle? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center -aisle. - -Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand -up and searched them while I covered. - -As soon as they were searched--well, I left out that part about the -number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I -walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the -lower floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you count them? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; I counted them. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed -toward the front of the center section, right? - -Mr. HUTSON. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where were the other five? - -Mr. HUTSON. There was two sitting in the center section near the front, -and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats -over, I am not sure whether that was the third row--I put it in my -report---- - -Mr. BELIN. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated -December 3, 1963? - -Mr. HUTSON. The third row from the back and the fifth seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there another person there? - -Mr. HUTSON. That was another person. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was that? - -Mr. HUTSON. That was Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't know it at the time? - -Mr. HUTSON. I didn't know who it was; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then who else? - -Mr. HUTSON. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the -theatre was another man. - -Mr. BELIN. In the back of the last row of the center section? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That accounts for four people. Where were the others? - -Mr. HUTSON. There were two young boys. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were they? - -Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back -row. - -Mr. BELIN. Right center or left center? - -Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left -center section. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other -people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the -rear? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the rear. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you -count? - -Mr. HUTSON. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many -policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards -the front of the center section? Were they searched? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. HUTSON. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the -theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the -right center section aisle. - -As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he -approached this person. I approached from the row behind. - -Mr. BELIN. You approached from the second row from the back? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you see happen? - -Mr. HUTSON. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became -engaged in a struggle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see who hit whom first? - -Mr. HUTSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head, no. - -Mr. HUTSON. No, I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay. - -Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, -but it was dark. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? - -Mr. HUTSON. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and -this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on -the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him -off. - -Mr. BELIN. This person was right-handed? - -You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of -McDonald's face? - -Mr. HUTSON. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm -and put it around this person's throat. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was -originally sitting in. - -At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that -the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand -and held it. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay. - -Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold -this person's right hand. - -Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a -revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right -hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, -on the suspect's right hand? - -Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this -person's right hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay. - -Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, -up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it? - -Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol -snaps. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard -the snap? - -Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat. - -Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that -direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen? - -Mr. HUTSON. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre? - -Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the -screen. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular? - -Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could -have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking -up in the row of seats in front. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the -suspect say anything? - -Mr. HUTSON. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything? - -Mr. HUTSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head no. - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened then? - -Mr. HUTSON. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer -McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on -the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, -we decided to handcuff him. - -We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still -resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this -time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back -behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to -handcuff him. - -At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were -handcuffing. - -Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of -here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was -rushed out of the theatre. - -I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry -Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter? - -Mr. HUTSON. Oswald? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I never did see him again. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know this was Oswald? - -Mr. HUTSON. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and -went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell -them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and -at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is, -he was probably the suspect that shot the officer. - -Mr. BELIN. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with -the assassination? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did the police stop hitting him? - -Mr. HUTSON. I never did ever see them hit him. - -Mr. BELIN. You never saw any police hit him? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of about this -incident that you haven't related here? - -While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing -here for a minute and I will be back. - -Anything else, Officer, you can think of? - -Mr. HUTSON. I can't think of anything else right now. - -Mr. BELIN. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be -a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw? - -Mr. HUTSON. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the -officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on -the lot. - -Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up? - -Mr. HUTSON. Approximately 25 yards. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up? - -Mr. HUTSON. I heard something--someone make the statement that that -looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not -wearing it now. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is this Texaco station? - -Mr. HUTSON. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the -intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of -Crawford and Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when -it was found? - -Mr. HUTSON. One-half block. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know the name of the officer that found it? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened to the jacket? - -Mr. HUTSON. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his -possession. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he gave it to? - -Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook? - -Mr. HUTSON. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house -with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, -but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was -when the officer had it. - -Mr. BELIN. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this -before, or not? - -Mr. HUTSON. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we -arrested in the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and -read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let -the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire -to do either one? - -Mr. HUTSON. I will go ahead and sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas -Police Department, is that correct? - -Mr. HUTSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and -please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in -charge. - -Mr. HUTSON. All right, nice to have seen you all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER - -The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WALKER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please? - -Mr. WALKER. C. T. Walker. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker? - -Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. WALKER. I am 31 years old. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. WALKER. One child. One girl. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. WALKER. Five years in July. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do prior to that? - -Mr. WALKER. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.--I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was -born in Slaton, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mr. WALKER. Slaton, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you you go to high school there? - -Mr. WALKER. I didn't finish high school. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you finish? - -Mr. WALKER. Tenth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in -Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? - -Mr. WALKER. Approximately 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic work. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. I worked--I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my -uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells. - -Mr. BELIN. After that what did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and -worked there 5-1/2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Doing what? - -Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. When was that? - -Mr. WALKER. 1959, July the 27th. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or -so on that day? - -Mr. WALKER. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? - -Mr. WALKER. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about -the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I -didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news -broadcast to find out in more detail what happened. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you cruising alone at that time? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime -to work alone or in pairs? - -Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and -night. - -Mr. BELIN. Day and night? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand? - -Mr. WALKER. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third -platoon, they work two men. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 -in the afternoon? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Ever work with him at all? - -Mr. WALKER. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same -substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite -well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return -to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around -shortly after you heard the news? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or -might have been in the block I don't recall exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean a block away from the fire station? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you called in? - -Mr. WALKER. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They -have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been -shot. - -I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to -my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3. - -And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went -on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call. - -Mr. BELIN. So you went on your own where? - -Mr. WALKER. I went to the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. That is at Elm and Houston? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car? - -Mr. WALKER. Right in front of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got your car parked? - -Mr. WALKER. Went inside the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go inside? - -Mr. WALKER. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway -there and I stayed in there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly -searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, -so I didn't go upstairs. - -Mr BELIN. What did you do when you were downstairs? - -Mr. WALKER. We were checking persons as they came in the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what? - -Mr. WALKER. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen. - -Mr. BELIN. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you -got down there? - -Mr. WALKER. Ten or fifteen minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the building sealed off at that time? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not? - -Mr. WALKER. No; they didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. WALKER. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had -been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up -to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the -car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene. - -In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where -Officer Tippit was killed. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Officer Tippit's car still there? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was still there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car -or not? - -Mr. WALKER. I didn't really look real close. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witnesses there? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't get out. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. WALKER. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street -that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at -Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the -lawn of the library. - -I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, -and he was even south of Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him? - -Mr. WALKER. He was over a block. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person -fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of -the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the -back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then -surrounded the library. - -Mr. BELIN. You were not the one that put out the first description of -the suspect they sought? - -Mr. WALKER. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as -to what you were looking for? - -Mr. WALKER. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored -coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. About 30 years old, I think he said. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library? - -Mr. WALKER. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the -other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered -everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this the upstairs? - -Mr. WALKER. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get -to it. - -Mr. BELIN. Something like a basement? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone -came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that -he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's -see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I -soon determined he wasn't the one. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. WALKER. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. -I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident -that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising -up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long -white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the -church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence -there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he -was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I -said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I -didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked -at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised -up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course -that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us." - -I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle." - -Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog. - -Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, -when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed -to be at the theatre on Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. WALKER. Texas Theatre; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WALKER. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived -there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up -on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but -he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And -there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, -and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man -told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person -that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats -several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had -seen him do, or not? - -Mr. WALKER. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, -kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into -the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all? - -Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared. - -Mr. BELIN. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to? - -Mr. WALKER. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, this was at the back of the theatre? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came? - -Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the -back of the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the -back of the theatre? - -Mr. WALKER. I walked--McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he -walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I -jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we -started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he -was slightly in front of me. - -Mr. BELIN. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. -N. McDonald and yourself? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. The three of you came in from the back? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just -don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Those are the three you remember? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right -center or the left center aisle? - -Mr. WALKER. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle -that you were going up? - -Mr. WALKER. Be the far left aisle, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Next to the wall? - -Mr. WALKER. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a -row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another -row of seats. - -Mr. BELIN. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which -would be to the left of the center row of seats? - -Mr. WALKER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay; just tell what happened. - -Mr. WALKER. There were two white males sitting approximately in the -center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what -point they come on. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many people was seated down on the first floor? - -Mr. WALKER. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, -who turned out to be Oswald--I didn't know at that time it was him--and -two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the -seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe -it, south of the south aisle, what I call it. - -Mr. BELIN. You were coming up the north aisle? - -Mr. WALKER. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of -the show. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recall then a total of six people? - -Mr. WALKER. That is all I recall seeing. - -Mr. BELIN. The people behind the man that you later found out to be -Oswald, how far were they behind? - -Mr. WALKER. They were about three or four or five seats behind him. - -Mr. BELIN. In what row were they? - -Mr. WALKER. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to -the last. - -Mr. BELIN. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. WALKER. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the -back. - -Mr. BELIN. Fourth or fifth row from the back? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting -together in the center? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You came up and approached those people? - -Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached them from the---- - -Mr. BELIN. Right? - -Mr. WALKER. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center -aisle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn? - -Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that? - -Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand -up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the -holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one -on the right. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at other people? - -Mr. WALKER. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I -didn't know who they were. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. WALKER. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, -and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we -approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him -from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, -had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him? - -Mr. WALKER. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him -slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting. - -Mr. BELIN. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald -approached Oswald from Oswald's right? - -Mr. WALKER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you? - -Mr. WALKER. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from -McDonald's aisle. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what happened? - -Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, -I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. WALKER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up? - -Mr. WALKER. No; he faced McDonald. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your -hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I -call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald -put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and -McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the -right hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Looking in whose? - -Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of -his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand -first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and -Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his -arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back -over the seat. - -At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know -whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, -but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, -Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had -came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you -see by his belt? - -Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you -see then? - -Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Handle of what? - -Mr. WALKER. The revolver. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it -out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. - -Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not -he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was -a detective. - -Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate -by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an -awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun. - -The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and -pointed out at about a 45 deg. angle. - -I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up -behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and -the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 deg. angle. Be pointed -slightly toward the screen, what I call. - -Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it? - -Mr. WALKER. A real light click, real light. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat? - -Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, -and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was -moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And -some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't." - -And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people -around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it -appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from -everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay, what happened then? - -Mr. WALKER. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm -around," and said, "I have the handcuffs." - -He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him." - -I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and -Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his -right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and -turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north. - -And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and -we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had -came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front. - -He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to -whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging -blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hit Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Hutson hit Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting -arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember? - -Mr. WALKER. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back -there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun." - -Mr. BELIN. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre? - -Mr. WALKER. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I -protest this police brutality." - -People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We -want him." - -Mr. BELIN. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination -of the President? - -Mr. WALKER. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, -I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were after him, you were after him for what? - -Mr. WALKER. For the killing of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right -door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. -We sat in the back seat with him. - -Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know -who they were, that rode down, too. - -There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down. - -Mr. BELIN. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until -the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way? - -Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall, no. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police -station? - -Mr. WALKER. As we were driving down there, yes; he said---- - -Mr. BELIN. Who was he? - -Mr. WALKER. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this -all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, -"I know my rights." - -And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest -because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police -officer. - -And he said, "Police officer been killed?" - -And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder." - -And I said, "You might find out." - -And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die." - -And that is all I recall. - -Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, -or not? - -Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he -did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, -he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been -to jail. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre? - -Mr. WALKER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he was carrying the gun? - -Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on? - -Mr. WALKER. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair -of black pants. - -Mr. BELIN. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall? - -Mr. WALKER. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like -that. - -Mr. BELIN. What color hair? - -Mr. WALKER. I would say sandy, the best I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Sandy, by that, you mean blond? - -Mr. WALKER. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Some shade of brown? - -Mr. WALKER. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in -my opinion. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it some shade of brown? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes; the best I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him on your way to the police station? - -Mr. WALKER. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit -excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can -recall going down. - -Mr. BELIN. After you got down there, what did you do with him? - -Mr. WALKER. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went -back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room. - -I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with -him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed -with his hands behind him. - -I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with -a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of card it was? - -Mr. WALKER. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?" - -Mr. BELIN. He--had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. I believe he had. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WALKER. And he said, "No, that is not my real name." - -And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill -the officer?" - -And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because -you were scared of being arrested for something?" - -And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared -now?" - -Mr. BELIN. Did he look like he was scared? - -Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a -bit nervous. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during -that time that he was with you? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I can't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you -had with him? - -Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and -some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald -had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me -two more." Or something like that. - -But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the -time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over. - -I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, -and that is the only conversation I had with anyone. - -Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald -had, did you? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details -of the arrest. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of -Oswald? - -Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" -letter. - -Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did -put what conversation we had. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you -said to him? - -Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out -he was a suspect in the assassination? - -Mr. WALKER. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that -he was the suspect. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination? - -Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual -killing of the President. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be -relevant? - -Mr. WALKER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this -deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long had you known Officer Tippit? - -Mr. WALKER. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I -first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and -worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there -all the time. - -I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training -and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, -I know, maybe 2 or 3 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no -call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call -for--I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the -suspect in the assassination? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you -have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected -his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. WALKER. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was -suspicious of him as a suspect. - -Mr. BELIN. Why do you believe that? - -Mr. WALKER. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made -good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally -good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above -normal. - -Mr. BELIN. Why do you think he stopped this man? - -Mr. WALKER. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he -probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he -would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the -assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him? - -Mr. WALKER. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and -it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he -fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it -is the suspect. You just don't do it. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, -or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting -or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the -President's investigation? - -Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while -until I got off. - -Mr. BELIN. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day? - -Mr. WALKER. That would have been Saturday. - -Mr. BELIN. Or did you work on Saturday? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any -investigation of any kind. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you going back to accident investigation? - -Mr. WALKER. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with -the assassination after November 22? - -Mr. WALKER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can -think of at this time, Officer Walker? - -Mr. WALKER. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just -don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I -can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high -points of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence? - -Mr. WALKER. I don't recall. I think he said--I know he was repeating, -"I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he got the gun? - -Mr. WALKER. No, he didn't say where he got the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that it was his gun? - -Mr. WALKER. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said -he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed -it was his gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come -down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for -your cooperation. - -Mr. WALKER. Okay. I know you've got a problem here. - -Mr. BELIN. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the -deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to -either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing -of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to -us in Washington? - -Mr. WALKER. I will go ahead and sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the -Dallas Police Department, I assume. - -Mr. WALKER. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now? - -Mr. BELIN. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to -read it or have her send it to us directly? - -Mr. WALKER. Do I have to come, down here to read it here? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, you have to come down and read it here. - -Mr. WALKER. I will come down and read it and sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, fine. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL - -The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HILL. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name. - -Mr. HILL. Gerald Lynn Hill. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HILL. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. HILL. Since March 7, 1955. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Sergeant Hill? - -Mr. HILL. Thirty-four. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mr. HILL. Ferris, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. HILL. Went through high school. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of high school? - -Mr. HILL. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from -January of 1948 until April of 1954. - -At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the -paper. - -Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and -worked for them until March the 21st, 1958. - -The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police -academy for the police department. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the police department? - -Mr. HILL. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my -notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the -police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the -police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms -with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they -worked out an agreement with me. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you on duty? - -Mr. HILL. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol -division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating -applicants for the police department. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was this? - -Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the -personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining -to the President's trip or any other function other than the -investigation of police applicants. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall? - -Mr. HILL. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or--excuse -me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west -on Main. - -I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the -third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R. -Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets -watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some -facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had -seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we -were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe -is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been -shot at Main and Lamar. - -Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later--she just -made the statement and walked out--and a minute later Captain Westbrook -said, "She wasn't kidding." - -And I said, "When she you mean?" - -And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face." - -And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to -the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third -floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the -dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the -intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down -in the press room. - -I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure -was Inspector Sawyer--but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't -say for sure--saying we think we have located the building where the -shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help. - -At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain -that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. -The captain said, "Go ahead and go." - -And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told -him to get on down there. - -I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and -saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he -was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular." - -And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street." - -"The President has been shot." - -We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named -Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the -basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told -him the President was shot. - -And he said, "Where are you going?" - -And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came -from." - -And he said, "Could I go with you?" - -So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what -the number was. - -We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, -went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as -Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson -Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the -right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, -jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there. - -I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building -properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so." - -And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?" - -And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out." - -About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from -homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service -bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy -sheriffs came up. - -Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on -the sixth floor from the sheriff's office. - -Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I -said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar? - -Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us -as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them. - -So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they -would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of -us to go to the top floor and work down. - -We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the -elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to -seven and shook it down. - -At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed -officer up there. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to the top floor of the building? - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, -or did you climb? - -Mr. HILL. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost -sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the -elevator went no further? - -Mr. HILL. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost -positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't -particularly take notice. - -But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of -flights because the elevator didn't go all the way. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you take this elevator? - -Mr. HILL. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned -to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight -elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. You took a passenger elevator? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do? - -Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and -if this was on the fifth, we walked through--there is a little office -section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large -room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway -would take us, which would have been on seven. - -In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder -leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used -mainly for storage. - -Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up -it. - -The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books. - -So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, -and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and -I went down to sixth. - -I started to the right side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean---- - -Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side? - -Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here -it is," or words to that effect. - -I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been -stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the -window. - -Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were -stacked near the east side of the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what -side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west? - -Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It -would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building -facing south. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or -the second window, or what, if you remember? - -Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to -the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short -time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, -because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there? - -Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a -three-sided shield. - -That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody -specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a -sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of -this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were -two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them. - -On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for -concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which -appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I -wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, -it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches -thick. - -Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the -south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of -the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, -were three spent shells. - -This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At -this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let -anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another -window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled -down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or -not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, I asked -the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure -that the crime lab was en route. - -When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator -moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch -the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were -coming up on the elevator. - -I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out -the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure -the crime lab was en route. - -About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab -was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the -area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth -floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene -so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All -right." - -And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector -Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building -across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and -Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay -any attention. - -I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. -C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that -day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what we -wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene? - -Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could -have been 19. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill. - -Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant -District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been -standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the -police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember -right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the -400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the -voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead. - -At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this -would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location -from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible -suspect in the assassination. - -With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160 -pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of -bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we -have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that -detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go -with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer -had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also. - -In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at -this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding -with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had -actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there. - -We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to -go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we -passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a -police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital. - -We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car -parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool -of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. - -Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he -said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 -to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown -bushy hair." - -At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad -105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe, -and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez. - -I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many -witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to -start checking the area. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember -the name of the person that gave you the description? - -Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name. - -Mr. BELIN. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any -kind? - -Mr. HILL. No; they had not. This came much later. - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead if you would, please. - -Mr. HILL. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came -up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over -into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking -lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--and taken off his jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. You turned this man over to Poe, too? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 -p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I -believe? Your radio home station? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that -saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, -behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." -"Several squads check out." Was that you? - -Mr. HILL. That was Owens. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all? - -Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens. - -Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time? - -Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. HILL. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went -around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the -first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, -and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on -Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the -north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand -furniture. - -By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man -running towards these houses. - -At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was -there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident -investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple -more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front -door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest -to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody -was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or -outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked. - -Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been -the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, -both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on -this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and -I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit. - -And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got -back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his -car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to -me with a Winston cigarette package. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was this? - -Mr. HILL. This was Poe. - -Mr. BELIN. You went back to the Tippit scene? - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street? - -Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that -contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had -pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped -these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put -them in the Winston package. - -I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for -him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for -evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, -or to homicide. - -The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to -a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street -in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go -in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees -inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen -anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible -places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, -nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the -doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to. - -An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that -time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call -came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. HILL. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a -right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as -close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two -or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the -back. - -They said, "We got the building completely covered off." - -I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the -theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard -the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over -the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony. - -We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been -also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling -to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe -just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the -balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and -here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man. - -There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and -none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of -the man that shot Tippit. - -I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and -stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the -ground. He said, "Did you find anything?" - -And I said, "Not up here." - -He said, "Have you checked the roof?" - -There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the -top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for -you." And he started up it. - -The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't -overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him -in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the -west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to -the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which -came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the -lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west -door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is -that correct? - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed -north, and then you had to turn to the right? - -Mr. HILL. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come -down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down -the north stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you -go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are -facing the screen, you are facing roughly east? - -Mr. HILL. Right side of the theatre would have been south. - -Mr. BELIN. South as you face the screen. All right, now. - -Mr. HILL. So I went through the north lower door. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HILL. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have -been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the -back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling -with a white male. - -I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before -I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun." - -I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately -behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side -of the suspect from me in the same aisle. - -Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front -of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and -down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't -recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then -Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both -in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various -intervals while all this was going on. - -We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him -and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him." -And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, -didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he -said, "Yes." - -And I said, "Let's get them." - -And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you were working in plainclothes? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any hat on? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; I did have a hat. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition -Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when -we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. -That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or -right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize any people in there? - -Mr. HILL. This would have been the suspect [pointing]. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the -profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or -lower than the others? - -Mr. HILL. Lower than the other people in the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right. - -Mr. HILL. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the -suspect? - -Mr. HILL. That is Detective Paul Bentley. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears -to have his hands---- - -Mr. HILL. That would be C. T. Walker. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is another person that is in the extreme -left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is? - -Mr. HILL. Capt. W. R. Westbrook. - -Mr. BELIN. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is? - -Mr. HILL. I have no idea. - -Mr. BELIN. That is to the left? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is -that anything you can recognize? - -Mr. HILL. Not from that; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, sir. - -You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect? - -Mr. HILL. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later -in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI -agent---- - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be Barrett? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his first name? - -Mr. HILL. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain -Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire -exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came -over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of -there as soon as possible. - -And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to -stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the -actual scene where the arrest was made. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent -happened to be there at the time? - -Mr. HILL. I heard later, and--but not actually to my own knowledge, -that he was riding with Captain Westbrook. - -To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out -from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the -incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly -before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HILL. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would -have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to -the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the -north section of the theatre. - -And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in -front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons -was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear. - -I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side. - -Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side. - -At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any -newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a -man shooting movies. - -Mr. BELIN. Movies? - -Mr. HILL. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a -short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about -him. - -We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a -minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west -door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the -officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where -nobody got to us or to the suspect. - -But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We -ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other calls from the crowd? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion, -but we kept moving. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you -were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process -of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell -something along the effect, "I've got him." - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements? - -First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement -of any kind? - -Mr. HILL. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically -recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for -a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put -it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no. - -As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if -we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in -the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald -or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will -keep on calling him the suspect, started making statements about "I -want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you -doing this to me." - -As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing -the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling -words similar to, "Typical police brutality." - -And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there -to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and -commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until -we got in the car. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, let me stop there before you testify about -getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement -prior to getting into the car? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying -to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?" - -Mr. HILL. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect? - -Mr. HILL. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that -Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click. - -Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, -off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the -position, was probably the second officer to him. - -In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and -then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that -order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him -from using the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you reply to this question? - -Mr. HILL. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the -interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the -scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that -you would hear it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hit the suspect at all? - -Mr. HILL. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else hit the suspect? - -Mr. HILL. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a -small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise -on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, -to see this done, I did not see. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as -"Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a--you want---- - -Mr. BELIN. Let's stop there before we get in the car. - -Mr. HILL. There were some statements made in the car similar to this, -in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time -in the theatre or from the theatre to the car. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you -hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle? - -Mr. HILL. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or -"Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him." - -But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called -anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a -police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did -not hear any. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer? - -Mr. HILL. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly -about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I -didn't actually identify any direct blows. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left -arm flailing? - -Mr. HILL. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free -himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually -hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his -hand, I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition -Exhibit B." State if you know what this is. - -Mr. HILL. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the -theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the -aisle that divided the two sections. - -Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I -don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize anything? - -Mr. HILL. There are three people in this picture that I recognize. -The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground -looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker. -The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a -T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face -practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to -us as Lee Harvey Oswald. - -And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth -is Detective Paul Bentley. - -There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is -apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and -his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to -admit I think it is me. - -And there is a faint image there, if you get the light--that is what I -am trying to see--very faintly--if we had a--yes, that is going to be -me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle. - -Mr. BELIN. If you hold it a little bit to your right? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; that is going to be me. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the -extreme left of the person with the helmet? - -Mr. HILL. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to -identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L. -E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay, sergeant. - -By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the -picture. - -Do you remember what else he had on? - -Mr. HILL. He had on a dark--I don't recall it being a solid -brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark -trousers. This I specifically remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Any jacket? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. HILL. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking -lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't -recall actually seeing this jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the -time you got to the car? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as -we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out -things. - -If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him. - -And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I -will ask you to state if you know what this is? - -Mr. HILL. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and -it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with -the suspect. - -Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. HILL. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked -right here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police -Car No. 151, which appears in the picture? - -Mr. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as -you remember it? - -Mr. HILL. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each -side of the theatre entrance. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to -the car was open at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Who opened it? - -Mr. HILL. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been -left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us -entered. - -Mr. BELIN. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led -the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people -there? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to -contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we -came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved -between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was -probably about 200. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car -that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember -now? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time -you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the -suspect in the car. - -Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door -of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. -Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right -rear. - -Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat -on that side. - -Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, -Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker? - -Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from -the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat. - -Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove -the vehicle. - -Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which -he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the -theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you? - -Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's" - -Mr. BELIN. When did he do that? - -Mr. HILL. As soon as he handed it to me. - -Mr. BELIN. When was that? - -Mr. HILL. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his -belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already -in the car and seated. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission -Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is? - -Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" -barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been -blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before? - -Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't -recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is -the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. - -Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will -identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you -describe it any more fully? - -Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun -in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last -name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal. - -Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there? - -Mr. HILL. I did. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you do that? - -Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of -Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police -department. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched -your name on it? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you? - -Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon. - -Mr. BELIN. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, -is that correct? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is what it says. - -Mr. BELIN. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or -something "C15" on it, too, is that right? - -Mr. HILL. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that -is. - -Mr. BELIN. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143? - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in -the car, he handed this gun to you? - -Mr. HILL. Right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was -said and what was done? - -Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained -and how many live rounds it had in it. - -Mr. BELIN. How many did you find? - -Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an -indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There -were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions. - -All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape -on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half -inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue -on the jacket of the shell. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those? - -Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them. - -Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on -the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the -initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a -dash behind it. - -Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is -the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the -H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my -presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third -floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What is that? - -Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that -was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was -taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest. - -Mr. BELIN. When was it removed? - -Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until -we arrived at the station. - -Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun? - -Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your -initials? - -Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed -them. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this an empty shell or live bullet? - -Mr. HILL. That is a live round. - -Mr. BELIN. For what caliber? - -Mr. HILL. A .38 caliber. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked -Q-177. - -Mr. HILL. That appears to be Q-177. - -It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH -running together, the initials CK on it also. - -It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is -a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name -H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit -145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I -identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself. - -Was this also something that you took out? - -Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I -believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that -identification. - -I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers. - -I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant? - -Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to -be Q-79. - -It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's -near the identification number that are legible. - -And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is -apparently on some of the others. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that? - -Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the -shell. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that? - -Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored -coating on the lead inside the bullet. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78. - -Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification -mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the -shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with -which I marked it. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80. - -Mr. HILL. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification -number Q-80. - -The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. -Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on -it. And this one also is a plain lead shell. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there? - -Mr. HILL. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, -with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number. - -On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on -this shell by me. - -This is a .38 lead slug. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs -were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143? - -What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed? - -Mr. HILL. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately -previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as -Commission Exhibit 143, by me. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun -was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this -gun was in your possession? - -Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time -it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were -marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were -marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the -homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that -they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at -this point. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill. - -You stated that this gun was handed to you by---- - -Mr. HILL. Detective Bob Carroll. - -Mr. BELIN. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -After he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what -happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you -can, what happened in the car? - -Mr. HILL. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner -where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one -block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this -point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, -and turned left onto Zangs. - -Within, I would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the -car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which -No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I -knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he -got on the radio. - -I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and -weapon and are en route to the station." - -Mr. BELIN. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and -I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, -"Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the -station." Was that---- - -Mr. HILL. Well, that would have generally been--that would have been---- - -Mr. BELIN. Would have been you? - -Mr. HILL. That would have been me. - -Mr. BELIN. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the -No. 2 on it? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently -they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this -point---- - -Mr. BELIN. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, -"Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on -the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying -that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have -been possibly right. - -Mr. BELIN. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre." - -And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." - -Did you say that? - -Mr. HILL. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question -did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him? - -Mr. BELIN. That is 531-550-2? - -Mr. HILL. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HILL. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the -theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it goes to 550. - -Mr. HILL. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher. - -Mr. BELIN. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre -after a fight." And then 531-2-3. - -Mr. HILL. That would have been the dispatcher talking to---- - -Mr. BELIN. Someone? - -Mr. HILL. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. BELIN. Two and three? - -Mr. HILL. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, -which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made. - -And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we -had 223, who was Walker--that is Walker's call number, and 492, which -was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me. - -And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick -up 223 car and take it back. - -Mr. BELIN. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you -advised who was in the car? - -Mr. HILL. With us en route to the station. - -Mr. BELIN. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was -at 1:52 p.m.? - -Mr HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice -that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, -or not, at 1:40 p.m.? - -Would that have been someone else? - -Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer. - -Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using -the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, -but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I -didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of -the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here. - -Mr. BELIN. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the -time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in -the car? - -Mr. HILL. The suspect was asked what his name was. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say? - -Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived? - -Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and -he didn't answer it, either. - -About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul -Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification." - -Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand -he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, -"Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. - -I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee -Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this -identification, I believe, was on the library card. - -And he also made the statement that there was some more identification -in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name -that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. - -Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell? - -Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is -what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it -written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address? - -Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification. - -One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near -as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly -conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an -address on Beckley, that I recall hearing. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to -the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the -second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer? - -Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you -got to the station? - -Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the -identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two -different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to -have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually -is." - -After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his -billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are -treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in -a movie." - -Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you -have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman." - -And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," -or something to that effect. - -Mr. BELIN. Something to what effect? - -Mr. HILL. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for -that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact -words of it, I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; then what was said? - -Mr. HILL. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior -to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions -were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did -he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the -handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again -he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was -carrying a pistol in a movie." - -We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without -using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot -we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--I did, -before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some -reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when -we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in -a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he -did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to. - -He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the -basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get -organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the -station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have -been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed -a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the -suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to. - -And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be -ashamed of." - -And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and -walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, -put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back -behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him. - -Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us. - -Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and -robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the -homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him. - -At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he -was in. - -Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never -relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was -Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold -on to it until later." - -I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want -us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up. - -We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the -offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way -when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, -came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in. - -He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go -get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and -I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man -named Lee Oswald." - -And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was -employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a -roll call of the employees." - -And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that -effect, "Because there he sits." - -And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery -bureau, to Captain Fritz. - -Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had -received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that -an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that -Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while -effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel -basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was -further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try -to organize the first report on the arrest. - -I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect -while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer -J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the -office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This -is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself. - -He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the -Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and -had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out -pro-Castro literature. - -This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand -myself. And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I -change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in -the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. -Tippit, which I did. - -I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my -signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over -in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and -recap the events. - -By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he -could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the -suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him. - -The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original -arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to -finish the report. - -When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, -and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a -paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that -it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report. - -Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections. - -And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a -paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also -that the FBI agent was there. - -Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they there at the time? - -Mr. HILL. They were there. They got there inside where we were about -the time he was being handcuffed. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, let me go back a minute now. - -You left the suspect in the custody of homicide? - -Mr. HILL. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. In what office was he left? - -Mr. HILL. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the -homicide and robbery bureau office. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was in there with him when you left? - -Mr. HILL. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander -of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the -officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau -and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner. - -However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the -interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office? - -Mr. HILL. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small -hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to -pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain -Fritz immediately in front of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left? - -Mr. HILL. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, -Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner. - -Mr. BELIN. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was -Fritz'? - -Mr. HILL. As far as I know; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any -address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement -of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in -Irving? - -Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, -in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from -information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these -addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley. - -As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the -identification. - -Mr. BELIN. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street? - -Mr. HILL. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was. - -Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in -which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any -Beckley Street address for the suspect? - -Mr. HILL. No. - -Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought -into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz -there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address? - -Mr. HILL. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did the suspect say, if anything? - -Mr. HILL. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the -theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why -are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a -gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is -carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing -an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry -for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion. - -He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make -boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in -the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and -the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He -was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he -made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he -didn't have anything to be ashamed of. - -Mr. BELIN. When the comment was made about frying, did any police -officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or -something like that? - -Do you remember anything like that being said? - -Mr. HILL. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to -the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance -to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I -don't recall who said it. - -But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, -I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that? - -Did you hear him say anything like that? - -Mr. HILL. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, -because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on -in the car. - -At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, -and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an -indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we -made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was -in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the -gun click. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that happened in the car? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall of specific detail. - -There was quite a bit of excitement. - -Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, -and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't -recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the -car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't -have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all? - -Mr. HILL. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, -but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. -This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, -was how quiet he did keep. - -His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had -committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer -questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not -unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he -is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can -do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said -he wanted his attorney. - -Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his -rights. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to -the police station? - -Mr. HILL. I do not recall. - -I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is -possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was -keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't -prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the -police station. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley? - -Mr. HILL. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and -once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him -walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the -day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the -time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that -he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were -you with the suspect at all times? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the -doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never -closed. - -Mr. BELIN. The door was never closed? - -Mr. HILL. No. - -Mr. BELIN. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the -man, suspect, say anything at all, or not? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the -doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and -what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if -he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, -or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. -We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight. - -Mr. BELIN. How far was the suspect from you at this time? - -Mr. HILL. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 -more feet to the door. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far would that be? - -Mr. HILL. About 6 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. How close was the other officer to you? - -Mr. HILL. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was -probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all? - -Mr. HILL. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the -statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word. - -Mr. BELIN. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he -was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, -would you have been in a position to hear that statement made? - -Mr. HILL. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible -that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, -but I can't say for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was -anything else that he could have said except for during that period, -would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North -Beckley? - -Mr. HILL. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over -to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker -and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I -am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North -Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly -hearsay, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned? - -Mr. HILL. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 -or 8 o'clock that night. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room? - -Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He -came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure -that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the -details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in -into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, -how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and -decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and -round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it -was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, -and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, -and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after -McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to -the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest -of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of -coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with -Oswald in the interrogation room? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had -with the prisoner? - -Mr. HILL. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald -as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in -the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that -I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality -and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the -basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted -to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, -so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have -taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room. - -Mr. BELIN. Over what period of time span would that have been that he -was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway -there? - -Mr. HILL. Probably 3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I -believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his -address and he refused, is that correct? - -Mr. HILL. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not -going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all. - -Mr. BELIN. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally -answered that question, did he? - -Mr. HILL. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of -Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have -any other report that you made at all, or not? - -Mr. HILL. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made -from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday -morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from that, anything? - -Mr. HILL. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact -that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another -report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of -the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one -report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the -only one I wrote on the actual arrest. - -Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you. - -Mr. HILL. Can I look at it? - -Mr. BELIN. You bet you can. - -[Handing to witness.] - -Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual -officer. Yes, sir; I did write this. - -Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what? - -Mr. HILL. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed -by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with -me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all -three signatures on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination -investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I was off that day. - -And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning -on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and -captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board -meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the -International Building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around -11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time. - -Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the -shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. HILL. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I -was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get -his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not? - -Mr. HILL. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a -while. In the interim, I had been on--normally when I was on a rotating -schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was -located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in -there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about -2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't -been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each -other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was -working in personnel. - -And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am -staying home." - -Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting? - -Mr. HILL. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 -or 4 weeks before this. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police -department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you -during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the -rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November -22? - -What did you find when you got there? - -Mr. HILL. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the -basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the -doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office. - -If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building. - -Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the -elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and -took pictures of us going to homicide. - -We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into -the homicide office. - -At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood -from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by -name. - -But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in -until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of -the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and -floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on -tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything -else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open -as much as possible. - -And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward -homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your -way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to -get through there. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition -that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, -and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member -of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the -police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other -types of news also. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear -the hall or clear the floor at all? - -Mr. HILL. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been -made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got -there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I -don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among -the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might -embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there? - -Mr. HILL. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing -that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press -releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities. - -I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do -what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when -they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a -formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions -they did, and if they didn't they would walk out. - -There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work -in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, -it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all. - -But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the -press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask -somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or -not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing -at that time what they were asked to do. - -What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather -crowded, I will make that statement. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you -previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you -to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you -talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one. - -What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or -was one that you found difficult to see? - -Mr. HILL. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time. - -However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and -they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a -dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that -had been handled a few times. - -Mr. BELIN. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" -and the other one is "Q-177," is that it? - -Mr. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw---- - -Mr. HILL. Q-80 would be the one. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a -couple of days ago, is that correct? - -Mr. HILL. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Friday afternoon? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, -is that correct? - -Mr. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, -that was canceled? - -Mr. HILL. That left. - -Mr. BELIN. I left at 5:30--and now it is past 7 o'clock--and I told you -I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition. - -At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas -of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we -had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you -described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general -terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we -go into any details at that time? - -Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this. - -You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, -supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could -have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that -time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, -and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book -Depository prior to the finding of the gun. - -Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was -there, I didn't see it. - -Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I -don't recall what statement it was. - -But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall -hearing that. I don't remember what it was. - -Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at -that time? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to -the stress of time. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in -from the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. HILL. As to any other possible weapon? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes; or ammunition? - -Mr. HILL. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and -being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone -else searching him after he was placed under arrest. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I -have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of -inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the -investigation of the Tippit murder? - -Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at -this time? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your -splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police -department here, and you particularly. - -You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of -mine was canceled. - -Mr. HILL. They were both on duty, so I don't mind. - -Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the -typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can -waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your -reading. - -Do you have any preference? - -Mr. HILL. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and -sign it? - -If you will just let me know when, I will be here. - -Mr. BELIN. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very -much. - -Mr. HILL. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE - -The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you stand and be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. POE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. State your name. - -Mr. POE. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e. - -Mr. BALL. And your address? - -Mr. POE. 1716 Cascade Street. - -Mr. BALL. And your occupation? - -Mr. POE. Police officer, city of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. All right, what is your rank in the department? - -Mr. POE. Patrolman. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the department? - -Mr. POE. Nine years and one month. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you born? - -Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mr. POE. Graduated from high school. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. POE. Then went into the Navy. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. POE. Three years. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. POE. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you do that work? - -Mr. POE. About 2 years. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. POE. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out -of the Service. - -Mr. BALL. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction -worker? - -Mr. POE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? - -Mr. POE. I joined the police force. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police force? - -Mr. POE. Patrol work. - -Mr. BALL. Patrolman? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In a car? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In a radio car? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day? - -Mr. POE. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone? - -Mr. POE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. POE. L. E. Jez. - -Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s. - -Mr. POE. No; it is J-e-z. - -Mr. BALL. What district do you patrol? - -Mr. POE. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106. - -Mr. BALL. Where are they located? - -Mr. POE. In the western end of the downtown section. - -Mr. BALL. You were a downtown patrolman? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the -radio? The fact that the President had been shot? - -Mr. POE. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal -19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston -Streets. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Were you told to go some place? - -Mr. POE. We reported the scene; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. To where? - -Mr. POE. To Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. When--what did you do there? - -Mr. POE. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went where? - -Mr. POE. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go out there? - -Mr. POE. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as -part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and -heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and--because he didn't -know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out -there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it -to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East -Ninth, the last time, and we went out there. - -Mr. BALL. You went there? - -Mr. POE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you find when you got there? - -Mr. POE. We found---- - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Mr. POE. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of -blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already -picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We -had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 -people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got -a description of the man that shot Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? - -Mr. POE. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? - -Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and -I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the -scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much -traffic on the radio, and the last--the direction he was seen leaving, -and then I talked to several more witnesses around there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio? - -Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it. - -Mr. BALL. And what happened after that? - -Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. -Dominique, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides? - -Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? - -Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the -man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading -his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up. - -Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn? - -Mr. POE. A man, white man. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing? - -Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run. - -Mr. BALL. And what did he say? - -Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up. - -Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls? - -Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls? - -Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from -the crime lab? - -Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't -swear to it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any people there? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. POE. Talked to Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the two Davis girls? - -Mr. POE. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two -Davis girls. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene -did? - -Mr. POE. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene. - -Mr. BALL. Leavelle? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the -Davis girls hand you anything? - -Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as -Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BALL. What was that? - -Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about -145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket. - -Mr. BALL. There is a--off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was Walker there at the scene? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there. - -Mr. BALL. What is his full name? - -Mr. POE. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on -that. - -Mr. BALL. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it -says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about -the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, -slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks." - -Do you know whether you gave Walker that description? - -Mr. POE. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the -car with Walker. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give Walker a description similar to that? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the only difference I see between the description you -said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in -his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same. - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who told you he had on a white jacket? - -Mr. POE. Mrs. Markham told me first. - -Mr. BALL. She did? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she -was--looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much -as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her. - -Mr. BALL. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given -to you? - -Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package. - -Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package? - -Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges. - -Mr. BALL. To the crime lab? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI -lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any -identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls -given to you by Benavides? - -Mr. POE. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark? - -Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? - -Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear -to it, I couldn't make them out any more. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it -is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. - -Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western -Special. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. POE. At the scene? - -Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. - -Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime -lab got there. - -Mr. BALL. Then you left? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect. - -Mr. BALL. Were you at the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him apprehended? - -Mr. POE. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You were out? - -Mr. POE. At the back. - -Mr. BALL. At the back? - -Mr. POE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Poe. - -This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and -you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature. - -Which do you prefer? - -Mr. POE. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the -truth. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to give your signature? - -Mr. POE. I will sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up -here and sign it. - -Mr. POE. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON - -The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of -the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GIBSON. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. GIBSON. John Gibson. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. GIBSON. I am manager of a retail store. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of retail store is that? - -Mr. GIBSON. It's Elko Camera store. - -Mr. BALL. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store? - -Mr. GIBSON. 239 West Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Near the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson? - -Mr. GIBSON. I was born in Brashear, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. GIBSON. Woodrow Wilson High School. - -Mr. BALL. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. GIBSON. In Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Well, what have you done since you got out of school? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the -Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for -Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, -and then went to work for Elko. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day? - -Mr. GIBSON. It was at 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Do you go to the picture show very often--that particular -theatre--the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. Like I said--that's on Friday and that is depending on -business. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday? - -Mr. GIBSON. About 1 o'clock--the same time I always go to lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963? - -Mr. GIBSON. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far -right-hand side. - -Mr. BALL. Is that where you always sit? - -Mr. GIBSON. That's where I always sit--that's my chair. - -Mr. BALL. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have -marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look -like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of -the time--that looks like it. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture? - -Mr. GIBSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that seat with reference to the picture? - -Mr. GIBSON. Further to the left--from the main seating in the very -back--it would be just past him. - -Mr. BALL. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the -center aisle? - -Mr. GIBSON. Right, and I would be--to his right. - -Mr. BALL. In the same row? - -Mr. GIBSON. In the same row. - -Mr. BALL. To his right facing the screen? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And on the other aisle, is that correct? - -Mr. GIBSON. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in -the theatre before the lights came on? - -Mr. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, -I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and -started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that -works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a -fire. - -Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into -the lobby? - -Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door -there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me -was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody -in the balcony?" - -I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood -around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I -guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre -just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say -there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest -of them were going upstairs. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see happen? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on -and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was -another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles. - -Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles? - -Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all -of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman -standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the -far aisle--just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down -the far aisle next to the wall on my side. - -Mr. BALL. What aisles did you see policemen going down? - -Mr. GIBSON. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center -aisles, and then the next thing was--Oswald was standing in the aisle -with a gun in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. That's the next thing you saw? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anybody with him--near him? - -Mr. GIBSON. I couldn't swear to that--I don't know--you mean other -policemen? - -Mr. BALL. That's what I mean--was he in the aisles? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, he had this pistol in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. Was anybody near him? - -Mr. GIBSON. Just the officers. - -Mr. BALL. What was the officer doing--did you say officers or police -officer? - -Mr. GIBSON. Officers. - -Mr. BALL. Plural, officers? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes; there were more than one. - -Mr. BALL. What were they doing? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, they were going toward him. - -Mr. BALL. Did they have ahold of him at the time? - -Mr. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time? - -Mr. GIBSON. I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which one--can you describe where he was and what he -did--just tell us in your own words what you saw him do? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, just like--I guess you have heard this a lot of -times--the gun misfired--it clicked and about the same time there was -one police officer that positively had him. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean--"had him"? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him. - -Mr. BALL. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or -afterwards? - -Mr. GIBSON. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer -because I would say possibly seconds before or a second--maybe at the -precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I -just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of -this. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer strike Oswald? - -Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer? - -Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.] - -Mr. BALL. You did not? - -Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they -said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you -mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they -took him to the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell? - -Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but -I was looking at an angle. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor? - -Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you see happen? - -Mr. GIBSON. I didn't see anything happen--I walked back to the front. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out. - -Mr. BALL. Describe what you saw at that time--I want to know how they -had ahold of him? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, -he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the -lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out -into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so -I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, -came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other -end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up -and then they brought Oswald through the door--there was two police -officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind -him--like so [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. And did the officer have his arm around his neck? - -Mr. GIBSON. I don't know--I don't think so--he did have a black eye and -his shirt was about halfway torn off of him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. GIBSON. He said, "I protest police brutality." - -Mr. BALL. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were -struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the -butt of a shotgun? - -Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who -were struggling with Oswald? - -Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the -theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. Oh--yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was -struggling with these other officers? - -Mr. GIBSON. Gee, I don't know--that, I couldn't say--because like I -say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could--or I should say -down--I turned around and went back to the front. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the -theatre? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me--the -first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights -came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't -definitely say I saw them talking to anybody. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your -name and address? - -Mr. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else? - -Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car -and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store. - -Mr. BALL. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him--I believe -they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told -me--Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went -upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I -don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, -as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small -majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there. - -Mr. BALL. Did they pass you on their way? - -Mr. GIBSON. You mean up the stairs? - -Mr. BALL. No; the smaller party that was downstairs. - -Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall. - -Mr. BALL. And they were in an aisle over there? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over--there's -two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs -down the wall. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that -they went? - -Mr. GIBSON. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact--this is what a -lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the -stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, -because as I said, when they took him to the floor, then I turned -around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock -the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons -of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald? - -Mr. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. As they went along--they finally walked up and outside? - -Mr. GIBSON. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald -was? - -Mr. GIBSON. Gosh--I don't know--it's hard to remember, when you try. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said--I don't think they went up to him. As I -said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he -was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me -that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but -this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay. - -Mr. BALL. But would you think he stood up first before any police -officer got to him? Or that near him? - -Mr. GIBSON. He had to, because they took him from a standing position -to the floor and he was standing up. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them before they came up to him? - -Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the -corner--as I said, just looking around the corner--there is a chance -you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, -I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but -when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. The first you saw him he was standing? - -Mr. GIBSON. He was standing. - -Mr. BALL. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out? - -Mr. GIBSON. Except on his way out--is the only thing I heard him say. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if -you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do? - -Mr. GIBSON. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it. - -Mr. GIBSON. Thanks very much. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM - -The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ELY. Would you stand up and be sworn, please? - -Mr. PUTNAM. All right. - -Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. PUTNAM. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Would you state your name, please? - -Mr. PUTNAM. James Putnam. - -Mr. ELY. And where do you live? - -Mr. PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive. - -Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Police officer--sergeant of police. - -Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Ten years and four months. - -Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of your background before you -started to work for the police department--where you went to school -and what you did before you became a policeman? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent? - -Mr. ELY. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, -I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was -in the Navy for about 7 years. - -Mr. ELY. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department? - -Mr. PUTNAM. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here -in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from -which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, -I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for -employment with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. ELY. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on -duty with the police department? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ELY. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the -investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your involvement with that -investigation? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building -and aiding in searching the building. - -Mr. ELY. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of -the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. PUTNAM. No. - -Mr. ELY. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police -department? What sort of work do you specialize in? - -Mr. PUTNAM. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, -supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for -identification.) - -Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated -Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents -designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts -of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have -no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, -assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on -the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit -1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and -Eighth Street is? - -Mr. PUTNAM. District 109. - -Mr. ELY. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to -531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th? - -Mr. PUTNAM. Yes; there is. - -Mr. ELY. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to -the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 -he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later -was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio -logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which -would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center -of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to -draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police -Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district. - -Mr. PUTNAM. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the -normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on -Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the -downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being -assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in -the Dallas Police Department--he would start in the direction of the -downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and -that vicinity. - -Mr. ELY. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route? - -Mr. PUTNAM. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this -corner--Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes -you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be -the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in -toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission -on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at -large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would -feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind -that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance -that might be related to the shooting. - -Mr. ELY. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff -area? - -Mr. PUTNAM. They are located in the Oak Cliff area. - -Mr. ELY. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE - -The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April -9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of -the staff of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ELY. Would you stand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PIERCE. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's -Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you -might have information which would help us in this inquiry. - -Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? - -Mr. PIERCE. Rio Sam Pierce. - -Mr. ELY. And where do you live? - -Mr. PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield. - -Mr. ELY. Could you tell us what your occupation is? - -Mr. PIERCE. Officer--police officer. - -Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold? - -Mr. PIERCE. Lieutenant. - -Mr. ELY. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. PIERCE. That's right. - -Mr. ELY. Could you tell us something about what you did before you -started to work for the police department? - -Mr. PIERCE. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged -in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine -Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe -it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946. - -Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you -specialize in with the police department? - -Mr. PIERCE. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of -the central station. - -Mr. ELY. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PIERCE. I was not. - -Mr. ELY. Were you in Dallas on that date? - -Mr. PIERCE. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning -and returned to Dallas about--oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m. - -Mr. ELY. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the -killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit? - -Mr. PIERCE. No, sir. - -Mr. ELY. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam -Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits -A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs -for November 22, 1963. - -If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to -patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you -explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer -Tippit would be in the district marked 109--specifically at the corner -of Lancaster and Eighth--at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have -proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and -killed? - -Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls -which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at -your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district -78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91? - -Mr. PIERCE. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have -alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, -at 12:43--I believe this occurred on channel 1--this was taken from -channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of -downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution." - -Mr. ELY. Explain what code 3 means. - -Mr. PIERCE. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have -code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In -other words, code 3 is your top--proceed with haste and caution. The -transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect -in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white -male," and gives the description here--would also be an indication to -the squads, and reading this--and I assume that this is the way it -came out--a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't -told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that -any normal police officer would assume that there had been something -pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him -working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area -to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you -stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster--it doesn't show here on -your map, but you have no viaduct--that's about the only place you can -cross that river, unless you want to wade. - -Mr. ELY. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that -viaduct would be? - -Mr. PIERCE. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown -area--it also crosses this river and comes on out--may or may not be -nearly correct--it isn't too far from wrong--I don't think so--there is -two viaducts. - -Mr. ELY. The red mark you have just drawn is what? - -Mr. PIERCE. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the -area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this--Lancaster -Street comes in something like that--it isn't marked on here. - -Mr. ELY. All right. - -Mr. PIERCE. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. -Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have -quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In -other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. -That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in -getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to -assist from the downtown area there. - -Mr. ELY. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at -12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only -to all squads in the downtown area? - -Mr. PIERCE. That's right. - -Mr. ELY. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not -located in the downtown area to react? - -Mr. PIERCE. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police -Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads -stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not -require that they stay in their district. - -Mr. ELY. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior? - -Mr. PIERCE. It looks like a normal procedure to me. - -Mr. ELY. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want -to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about -covers it? - -Mr. PIERCE. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have -to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection -with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested -in, that would not be unusual. - -Mr. ELY. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much. - -Mr. PIERCE. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS - -The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of -the staff of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. OWENS. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's -Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding -the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe -that you might be able to give us some information which would help us. - -Mr. OWENS. All right. - -Mr. ELY. Could you state your full name, please? - -Mr. OWENS. Calvin Bud Owens. - -Mr. ELY. And where do you live, sir? - -Mr. OWENS. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e. - -Mr. ELY. In Dallas? - -Mr. OWENS. That's right. - -Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? - -Mr. OWENS. I am a police officer. - -Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold in the police department? - -Mr. OWENS. Sergeant. - -Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the police department? - -Mr. OWENS. Twenty-three and a half years. - -Mr. ELY. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you -went with the department? - -Mr. OWENS. How far back? - -Mr. ELY. Starting with your schooling, let's say. - -Mr. OWENS. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill -[spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., -and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and -then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated -from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I -got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel -as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately -a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there -2-1/2 years, and then went to work for the public works department in -construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was -in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months -in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October -1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went -in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police -department. - -Mr. ELY. And you have been there ever since? - -Mr. OWENS. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OWENS. I was. - -Mr. ELY. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date? - -Mr. OWENS. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation. - -Mr. ELY. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff -substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your -supervision? - -Mr. OWENS. That's true. - -Mr. ELY. When and how did you first hear that there had been an -incident involving the President of the United States? - -Mr. OWENS. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the -substation--channel 1 was not working properly--some mike--or some -radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I -switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, -"It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he -had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where -they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the -dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They -were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that -there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been -shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and -proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3. - -Mr. ELY. And what does code 3 mean? - -Mr. OWENS. It means emergency with red lights and siren on. - -Mr. ELY. Thank you. - -Mr. OWENS. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of -the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was -dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored -man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, -I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and -take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I -had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they -had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman -there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. -I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a -shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall the name of this colored man? - -Mr. OWENS. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff -and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I -proceeded--I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, -an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we -started out to--I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East -Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was -corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting. - -Now, right there--here's where I'm not quite sure--I don't know whether -I was given the gun and all--but I believe I was given the gun and this -was Tippit's gun and shells. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall who gave them to you? - -Mr. OWENS. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was. - -Mr. ELY. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody? - -Mr. OWENS. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper -envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions. - -Mr. ELY. Did you make any identifying marks on them? - -Mr. OWENS. No; they were his city issued--his own gun. - -Mr. ELY. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually? - -Mr. OWENS. No; I believe it was Barton--I'm not sure. I couldn't say -positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In -fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have -taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property -room--I don't know. - -Mr. ELY. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you -the gun, and let's go on from there. - -Mr. OWENS. Yes--we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the -suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward -Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not -sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we -blocked off that square block. - -Mr. ELY. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off? - -Mr. OWENS. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson--the 400 -or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and -Denver--I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the -buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as -businesses. - -Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you -just look through the halls? - -Mr. OWENS. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and -the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard -over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be -a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the -description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the -corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. -Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the -library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought -was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not -the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that -heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was -running over there to tell them that the President got shot. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the -library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the -library? - -Mr. OWENS. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into -the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the -shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men -yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone -left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the -crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to -the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there? - -Mr. OWENS. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] -D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the -scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been -taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just -a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his -right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. -Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and -another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which -temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether -he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a -time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was -assigned. - -Mr. ELY. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, -you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police -headquarters; is that correct? - -Mr. OWENS. What, now? - -Mr. ELY. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were -assigned to the Oak Cliff substation? - -Mr. OWENS. No; that's right. - -Mr. ELY. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition -Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is? - -Mr. OWENS. It is what we call a district map of the various districts -of the city of Dallas. - -Mr. ELY. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that -correct? - -Mr. OWENS. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for -each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, -the districts cover that. - -Mr. ELY. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that -map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OWENS. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether -we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be -assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be -78. - -Mr. ELY. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the -district? - -Mr. OWENS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. ELY. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated -"Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 -p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he -was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth? - -Mr. OWENS. That's right. - -Mr. ELY. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of -Lancaster and Eighth fall? - -Mr. OWENS. In district 109. - -Mr. ELY. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was -Officer Tippit shot? - -Mr. OWENS. In district 91. - -Mr. ELY. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer -Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district -109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your -answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which -are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your -experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure -for reacting to an emergency. - -Mr. OWENS. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit -B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and -Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was -going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all -squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be -an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet -6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought -to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at -this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the -President--that was at 12:45---- - -Mr. ELY. And signal 19 means what? - -Mr. OWENS. A shooting--anything of that magnitude in the shooting of -the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would -proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever -had done it. - -Mr. ELY. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and -Houston itself, or would he just come in closer? - -Mr. OWENS. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered -all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he -was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are -there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, -and--instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down -there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in -the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance -of apprehending him. - -Mr. ELY. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people -whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston? - -Mr. OWENS. That's what I think--not only filling in, but also looking -for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general -description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he -could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon -as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can -apprehend him. - -Mr. ELY. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in -district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head -downtown in any emergency? - -Mr. OWENS. That's true. - -Mr. ELY. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over -toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route. - -Mr. OWENS. According to this map--it doesn't show all the things on -there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you -wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, -but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot -of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and -go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him -a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him -right to Elm and Houston. - -Mr. ELY. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would -be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town? - -Mr. OWENS. Yes; I do. - -Mr. ELY. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which -you were patroling? - -Mr. OWENS. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was -acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at -the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time. - -Mr. ELY. In which numbered area is that located? - -Mr. OWENS. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I -heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then -I went. - -Mr. ELY. You headed toward the downtown area yourself? - -Mr. OWENS. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself. - -Mr. ELY. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there -either? - -Mr. OWENS. That's right--that's true. - -Mr. ELY. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told -us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which -numbered area on this map he was assigned to? - -Mr. OWENS. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96. - -Mr. ELY. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.) - -Mr. OWENS. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, -but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston. - -Mr. ELY. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he? - -Mr. OWENS. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same -sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the -same general area which covers these districts in here. - -Mr. ELY. That would be districts 82 and 85? - -Mr. OWENS. No--81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79--that's that -sergeant's district. - -Mr. ELY. All right, thank you very much, sergeant. - -Mr. OWENS. I don't know of anything else--as I say, I couldn't remember -where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my -wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked -her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she -has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling -a gun like that if it was the suspect's. - -Mr. ELY. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much. - -Mr. OWENS. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH - -The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April -2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you -solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the -Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Sit down. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith. - -Mr. BALL. And where do you live? - -Mr. SMITH. 328-1/2 East Davis. - -Mr. BALL. What is your age? - -Mr. SMITH. Twenty. - -Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with? - -Mr. SMITH. My mother. - -Mr. BALL. At this address? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and -where you went to school. - -Mr. SMITH. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason -Chapel. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mr. SMITH. Three months into the 12th grade. - -Mr. BALL. Three months into the 12th grade? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SMITH. Been working ever since, most of the time. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? Have you done? - -Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box. - -Mr. BALL. Beg your pardon? - -Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box. - -Mr. BALL. That is where you are working now? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; working at a metal shop. - -Mr. BALL. Any metal shop? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in trouble with the police? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble did you get in? - -Mr. SMITH. Auto theft. - -Mr. BALL. You're on probation now, aren't you? - -Mr. SMITH. Two years. - -Mr. BALL. Two years? Ever have any other trouble? - -Mr. SMITH. Tickets. - -Mr. BALL. Just tickets? Traffic tickets? - -Mr. SMITH. Two right now. - -Mr. BALL. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't have a job? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you spend the day that day? - -Mr. SMITH. 505 East 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Why were you there? - -Mr. SMITH. Visiting a friend. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go over there that day? - -Mr. SMITH. In the morning. In the morning. - -Mr. BALL. In the morning? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? - -Mr. SMITH. In the evening. - -Mr. BALL. So, you spent the whole day there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day -that you noticed? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you? - -Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt. - -Mr. BALL. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot? - -Mr. SMITH. One block. - -Mr. BALL. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Policeman was shot in the 400 block? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were in the 500 block? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident? - -Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots. - -Mr. BALL. And what? You looked down that way? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back? - -Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was -running. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Saw the side of his face? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And he ran in what direction? - -Mr. SMITH. West. - -Mr. BALL. Did you follow him? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street. - -Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my -probation record. - -Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with. - -Mr. BALL. What's his name? - -Mr. SMITH. James Markham. - -Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I -a---- - -Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you? - -Mr. SMITH. The FBI. - -Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen? - -Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on -television---- - -Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away? - -Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark. - -Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television? - -Mr. SMITH. Looked blond. - -Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. By whom? - -Mr. SMITH. FBI agent. - -Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture? - -Mr. SMITH. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the -appearance of the man in the picture? - -Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television. - -Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it -looked anything like the man you had seen running away? - -Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes. - -Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these -shots? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house---- - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where you were standing? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer? - -Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants -and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat---- - -Mr. SMITH. This looks like it. - -Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. -Have you ever seen this before? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket. - -Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up -and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want -to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send -it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that? - -Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me. - -Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature? - -Mr. SMITH. Ever what that means. - -Mr. BALL. That means you don't have to sign it. - -Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; I will sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. Do you have a telephone number? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and -sign it. - -I thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR. - -The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., -on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right hand -to be sworn, please. - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. APPLIN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the -record. - -Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for -Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station. - -Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your -transportation? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I -will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your -expenses. You came in when? This morning? - -Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in -here. - -Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And---- - -Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car -stalled on me about three or four blocks over. - -Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born -and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done -since then? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived -there pretty near all my life. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high. - -Mr. BALL. And how far did you go? Finished junior high? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade. - -Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff. - -Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents. - -Mr. BALL. Your mother and father? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor. - -Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble? - -Mr. APPLIN. Burglary. - -Mr. BALL. When was that? - -Mr. APPLIN. In 1963. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do any time? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it. - -Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations. - -Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing here? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell it? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in -my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas? - -Mr. APPLIN. Working. - -Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and -painter and front-end loader. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day? - -Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, -and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days. - -Mr. BALL. For 2 days? - -Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to--I was over in Oak Cliff, around -about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I -was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car -listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened. - -Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Paid your way? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre? - -Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the -middle of the chairs. - -Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of -seats? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought -about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle. - -Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that -showing of that picture that you remember? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture. - -Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on. - -Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening? - -Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle. - -Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front? - -Mr. APPLIN. From the rear. - -Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter? - -Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it. - -Mr. BALL. From your rear? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the -wall. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you see? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter -and what about the lights. - -Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front? - -Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was -happened--happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down -and I stopped to find out. - -Mr BALL. Did you ask him? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do? - -Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back up. - -Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Towards you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the -front, asked them to stand up and---- - -Mr. BALL. Did he search them? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down. - -Mr. BALL. Did he search you? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting? - -Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down. - -Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre? - -Mr. APPLIN. From the rear. - -Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle? - -Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting -about two or three seats. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see him do? - -Mr. APPLIN. He--started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, -please?" And he stood up. - -Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard -the officer say, "Stand up"? - -Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from -the back, rear. - -Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show. - -Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition -here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows -down from me. - -Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you -yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was---- - -Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said. - -Mr. BALL. What did the officer say? - -Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please." - -Mr. BALL. What did the man say? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time. - -Mr. BALL. And what happened then? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search -him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he -did, the officer grabbed him. - -Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. With his left or right? - -Mr. APPLIN. Right fist. - -Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And -during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, -there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and -ran down there to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four -or five officers were there. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came -into view before any of the other officers got there. - -Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who -pulled a gun? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] -and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was -pointed out that way [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this -way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald -to stand up? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he stand up? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about---- - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do? - -Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him. - -Mr. BALL. What did the officer do? - -Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then. - -Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then. - -Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol? - -Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds. - -Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol? - -Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had -on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to -the gun. - -Mr. BALL. What did the officer do? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun -and the officer saying, "Here he is." - -Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns. - -Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol. - -Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came -down? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him. - -Mr. BALL. How many of them? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him? - -Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun. - -Mr. BALL. How did he do it? - -Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and -swung and hit him in the back. - -Mr. BALL. With what? - -Mr. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun. - -Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess it was. You could--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where? - -Mr. APPLIN. In the back. - -Mr. BALL. What part of the back? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, -somewheres. - -Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you -saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun? - -Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald? - -Mr. APPLIN. Uhuh? - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the -middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of -the aisle. - -Mr. BALL. With the man? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through the -doors? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers -hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind -me. - -Mr. BALL. In behind you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And went on out? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you go out and follow them out? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and -the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and -asked--there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and -said--that one boy said that he seen him, through the front--I mean out -from behind the picture where it came out--supposed to came out behind -the picture. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give them your name there? - -Mr. APPLIN. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the -time. - -Mr. BALL. Later did you go down to the police station and make a -statement? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's -name. I rode down with three officers. - -Mr. BALL. That same day, did you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't go back to the picture show? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back -out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in -time to. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't get to see the show? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't see him after that. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your -deposition, didn't I? - -Mr. APPLIN. I wasn't actually; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I mean, you and I came up---- - -Mr. APPLIN. Oh, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And we sat and talked a few minutes? - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. BALL. And you have told us everything that you told me before---- - -Mr. APPLIN. This was taken here? - -Mr. BALL. Before it was taken. - -Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read -it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to -the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady -has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it. - -Mr. BALL. You are waiving your signature then, are you? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, I will sign it if you want me to. - -Mr. BALL. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but -you may if you want to. - -Mr. APPLIN. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble -with it, will you? - -Mr. BALL. Well, no. - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, then, I will sign it for you then. - -Mr. BALL. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin. - -Mr. APPLIN. But, there is one thing puzzling me. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. APPLIN. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, -but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was -standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. -There is a gun." And he says--just sat there. He was just back like -this. Just like this. Just watching. - -Mr. BALL. Just watching the show? - -Mr. APPLIN. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting -just like this, just looking at me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know the man? - -Mr. APPLIN. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Ever seen him since? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, -"Buddy, you'd better move," and---- - -Mr. BALL. Were you scared? - -Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen the gun I was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police officer about this man? - -Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did -tell--I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret -Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much. - -Mr. APPLIN. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS - -The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Ray Hawkins. - -Mr. BALL. And your address, where do you live now? - -Mr. HAWKINS. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident -investigator. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. HAWKINS. It will be 11 years in June. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself--where you were born and -your education and what you have done? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the -Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served -3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office -after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power & -Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have -been in the traffic division 8 years last month, which my primary duty -is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in -the radio patrol division. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day. - -Mr. BALL. And were you assigned some special duty because of the -presence of the President in the city? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is -my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer -Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving -him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation. - -Mr. BALL. Do you work in uniform? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. BALL. In the regular patrolman's uniform? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--the regular patrolman uniform. - -Mr. BALL. You drive an automobile? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes; I do. - -Mr. BALL. Is it a marked police car? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--it is the blue and white marked police car. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you around 1 o'clock? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the -time of the assassination--I was--we were on an accident in the 2500 -block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard -anything about this accident. - -Mr. BALL. You and your partner? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear the President had been killed? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of -the approximate time that you heard that report? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.--I'm not sure -what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were -on an accident at the time--I cleared from the call about the time we -heard this information. - -Mr. BALL. And you got that information over the police radio? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not. They called--I heard a citizen come -in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked -like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I -was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the -general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, -stating that we were proceeding in that direction. - -We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general -vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come -out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate -vicinity. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton? - -Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the -location. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? - -Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and -in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they -had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and -then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call -that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at -which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten -into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three -of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself. - -Mr. BALL. Hutson is also a patrolman? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the -library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had -heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the -other employees there. - -We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area -around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson. - -We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the -Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you park? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the -theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door -at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker -and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at -this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he -identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and -that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the -suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre -and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or -four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south -side. - -Mr. BALL. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen -about four rows from the rear of the theatre. - -Mr. BALL. And how many seats over from the right aisle? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I would say probably three or four--I don't remember -exactly. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were -you? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could -see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned -on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage. - -Mr. BALL. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer? - -Mr. HAWKINS. The man whom I had been talking to? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; the shoe salesman. - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did -identify himself and we did have his name. - -Mr. BALL. Were you armed? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. With what? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with it? - -Mr. HAWKINS. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer -McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two -boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was -sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would -walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to -this person who was seated back there. - -Mr. BALL. He was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he? - -Mr. HAWKINS. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the -person's right. I was about three rows from--still in the same aisle, -on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I -heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that -effect. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. -Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and -Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the -front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs -out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around -as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with -both hands behind his back. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist? - -Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist. - -Mr. BALL. Which one? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist. - -Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I -arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and -McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I -got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled -across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre. - -Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, -Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he -took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know -whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure -it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it -was in the seats someone making the noise. - -Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so--I don't think I could say for -sure. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I -said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed -Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the -gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and -Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left -hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the -scene. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some -officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had -one, but it is possible that they did have. - -Mr. BALL. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, -and you---- - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And who was the other man? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the -time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the -left hand. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald's left? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Oswald's left. - -Mr. BALL. And who was on the right? - -Mr. HAWKINS. McDonald. - -Mr. BALL. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he -was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe -he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob -Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was -Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was -all happening pretty fast. - -Mr. BALL. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald -have a shotgun? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were -standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken. - -Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling -with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and -struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything -like that? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. -I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was -standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure -that he did not have a gun. - -Mr. BALL. Hutson did not have a shotgun? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle--I -do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights -and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he -made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or -something of this nature. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except -in the grabbing and holding of him--I know you grabbed him and held -him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow. - -Mr. BALL. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however, -after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of -his face. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Not at the theatre; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the -theatre? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I was walking with the group--I was not immediately beside -Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer -Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those -three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed -him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left -and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car--I was -standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out. - -Mr. BALL. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or -yelling? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Was he? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember him saying anything except this about -that he had certain rights and the police brutality. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say -that in the theatre? - -Mr. HAWKINS. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got -outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out -front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door. - -Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought -Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside -him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm -around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you -see anything like that? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out--the best I -can remember--I was behind the group and there were at least three -officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was -behind him and walked up behind him--I don't recall anyone having him -around the neck at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the -assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; the only thing I did following this--we went to -the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the -arrest, and that was the last thing I had done. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it? - -Mr. HAWKINS. Did I see McDonald mark it? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it -or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked -it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody unload the gun? - -Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded -whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four -men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the -station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that -we arrived at the station. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the bullets? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I saw the bullets--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine them closely? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small -indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not -fire. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. - -Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you -can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer? - -Mr. HAWKINS. I would just as soon sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right, we will have you sign it. - -Mr. HAWKINS. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. - -Mr. HAWKINS. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it? - -Mr. BALL. We will give you a telephone call. - -Mr. HAWKINS. You will give me a telephone call? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HAWKINS. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY - -The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Be seated and state your name, please. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. L. D. Montgomery. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Police officer. - -Mr. BALL. You are called before the Commission to give such information -as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have -been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your -presence here? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been over here twice now already. - -Mr. BALL. You have been here before? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I gave one deposition on this. - -Mr. BALL. And that had to do with what subject? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, they covered about all of it, really. - -Mr. BALL. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas -State Book Depository? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir; some of that was in there--yes, sir. Mr. -Griffin took it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth -floor of the Texas State Book Depository? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in -that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition. - -Mr. BALL. I had better ask you the questions now. - -How long have you been on the police force? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been on down there 9 years. - -Mr. BALL. What is your job? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective in the homicide bureau. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4. - -Mr. BALL. And to what work were you assigned? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, that particular morning at that time we was -trying to round up some hijackers. - -Mr. BALL. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get there? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I got there, I guess--it was about 12:40 or 12:45. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do when you got there? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I reported to the sixth floor there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and -I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the -building--over there from where the shooting took place. - -Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or -afterwards? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there. - -Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; it hadn't. - -Mr. BALL. The rifle was found after you got there? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of -that sixth floor? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there -was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it -looked like somebody had been eating chicken there. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes--right there on the -floor. - -Mr. BALL. On the floor? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a -box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around -right there. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if -it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there--one of -those pictures might show exactly where it was. - -Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure -if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there. - -Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there -where the shooting was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--let's see--Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker -came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper -bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was -wrapped up in. - -Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window. - -Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. -Pepper bottle? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was -sitting over there by itself. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the -hulls there were. - -Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he -said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle. - -Mr. BALL. Correct. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that -other sack I'm thinking about--the one we found on the floor there that -was used. - -Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the -Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper -bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I -shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now? - -Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember -it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around -where the hulls were found. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of---- - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box -there. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some -boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in -there. There's some boxes coming along in there. - -Mr. BALL. Coming along in there--you mean it's outside of the view of -the pictures? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here. - -Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there. - -Mr. BALL. Partially eaten? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten--on that picture -right there--I was just looking at. - -Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of -paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in. - -Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long -piece of paper? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here. - -Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the -Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now? - -Mr. BALL. The paper sack? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one? - -Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You picked it up? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute--no; I didn't pick it up. I believe -Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check -it for prints. - -Mr. BALL. Did you question any witnesses that day? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--that particular day--no, sir; I don't -believe I talked to a witness that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses at any time? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not to the assassination--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the -shooting of Tippit? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we went out and got two of them and brought them -down. - -Mr. BALL. Who were they? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see, there was a taxicab driver--Whaley--one of -them was Mr. Whaley and there was another one. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Scoggins? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. That could be his name--I just don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a report that you made of what you did? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn't take an affidavit from him--no, sir; I took -one from Mr. Whaley. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend a showup? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; I didn't attend any showups. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No. - -Mr. BALL. But you took an affidavit from Mr. Whaley? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. From Mr. Whaley--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you ever present at any time when Oswald was questioned? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be the Sunday morning of the 24th, just -prior to transferring him. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be in Captain Fritz' office in the city hall. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present, if you remember? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, there was Detective Leavelle, Detective Graves, -Detective Dhority, Captain Fritz, and Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Kelley. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what was said? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; they just asked him several questions there -as to why he shot the President and he said he didn't shoot the -President, and Captain Fritz asked Mr. Sorrels if he would like to ask -him a question and Mr. Sorrels would ask him one and then Mr. Kelley -would ask him one--they would ask him about life in Russia. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; that's about all the questions I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Then, was Oswald handcuffed at that time, during the -questioning? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. At that time, I don't believe he was--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you leave with him? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Did I leave with who--now? - -Mr. BALL. Leave Fritz' office with him. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. When we started to transfer him, of course, we all went -down on the elevator with him. - -Mr. BALL. He was handcuffed to whom? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective Leavelle. - -Mr. BALL. And were you with the group that was taking him, transporting -him? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have already testified, I guess, as to what happened -there? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be reduced to writing and it -can be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive signature, -if you wish. Which do you prefer? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. It doesn't make any difference to me. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. I can waive it and save having to come back and sign it - -Mr. BALL. That will be all right with you? - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; that's fine. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming back. - -Mr. MONTGOMERY. You bet. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARVIN JOHNSON - -The testimony of Marvin Johnson was taken at 4 p.m., on April 6, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you -solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Marvin Johnson. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Route 3, Box 279, Terrell, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Police officer. - -Mr. BELIN. For whom? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Employed by the city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Texas? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through high school? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I finished the eighth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. You finished the eighth grade? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Went to work. - -Mr. BELIN. By way of general background, what kind of work did you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm. -And went from that to ice route. From there I went to work at North -American Aircraft, and then the Army. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you go in the Army? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Infantry. - -Mr. BELIN. When was that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. 1944. September 1944. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you were discharged in 1946? - -Mr. JOHNSON. February 1946; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Then I went back to Aircraft. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work in Aircraft? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I worked there 11 months that time, and they had a layoff. -I got laid off, and I went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for -about 6 months. Well, one summer. Then that is when I went to Terrell -and went in the dairy business for myself. - -Mr. BELIN. You went what? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for -myself. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Then I had that 5 years, and then came here. - -Mr. BELIN. So you have been with the Dallas Police Department since -what year? - -Mr. JOHNSON. 1953. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Forty-three. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your position with the Dallas Police Department in -November of 1963? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you still assigned to that bureau today? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. As a detective? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the Presidential motorcade? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At approximately what time did you find out about the -shooting of the President, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Must have been about 12:40, I guess. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you found out about it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Returned to the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Returned to your office? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the -office at the time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We had just made an arrest prior to checking out -on a hijacking. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a chance to eat that day or not? I mean lunch. - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; didn't eat lunch. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you got back to the office. Then what did you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I was instructed by Lieutenant Wells to go to the Texas -Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. To go to the Texas Book Depository? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time did you get there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Around 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. To the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor? - -Mr. JOHNSON. When we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the -building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and -we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes. - -And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor. - -So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz -for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on -up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned -L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting -occurred. - -Mr. BELIN. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this -was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an -area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which -the shooting occurred? - -Mr. JOHNSON. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us -to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us -that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because -that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to -Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a -particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I had heard somebody already say. I had already -seen them. - -Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the No. 3, is that how many there were? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this -was? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a -window. - -Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east, -south, or west? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of -the building, and the window is the farthest east. - -Mr. BELIN. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south -side of the building, is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see -them? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they actually found it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a -possibility--I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up -there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. To remain there and protect the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS -Deposition Exhibit G"--the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker--I would ask -you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be -in the same position as they were when you saw them there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a -box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were -mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being -that far out. - -Mr. BELIN. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the -hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to -the bricks? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Next to the wall; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you -first saw them? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be -as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It -was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could -have been wrong. - -Mr. BELIN. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is -that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, -was closer to the wall? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I thought they were all three closer to the wall. - -Mr. BELIN. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did -you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my -partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that -corner. - -Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the -window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of -fried chicken, and a pop bottle. - -And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the -crime lab to finish their work. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything -else other than the sack and the pop bottle? - -Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken. - -Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that -window, or was it by another set of windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, -seven pairs of windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the -center? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of -windows to my--I am pretty sure it was. - -Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting -from the east wall? - -Mr. JOHNSON. To the west. - -Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the -third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by -the second? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the -first pair of windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor? - -Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take -pictures? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything -had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of -pictures up there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They -weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of -there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it -not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Detective Montgomery? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the -sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the -shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and -the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was -made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the -paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper -bag. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was this found? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. On what floor? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Which corner? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my -partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he -unfolded it. - -Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small -package. - -Mr. BELIN. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the -first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the -building? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It still would be over toward the east from the windows. - -Mr. BELIN. It would be east of the windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not -too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition -Exhibit"--that appears to be G--it is picture No. 26, there are some -pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical -pipes? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those -vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of -the sixth floor near the east corner? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That sack would be over near the corner of the building -here [pointing]. - -Mr. BELIN. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of -the sack be sticking out west of the pipes? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here. - -Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been -east of the pipes. Is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was -east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is -where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it -up. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I -was, and I had already walked off to where he was. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself -in that picture--it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that -correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't compare it to that book carton. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to -the north of where the sack was found? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way -around this thing. - -I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that -is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene--you see, -there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I -don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This -might be just one sitting out over there out of the way. - -Mr. BELIN. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, -at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this -deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a -little longer than those book cartons. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned -rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G--does any portion of that -rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that -is the southeast corner? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was -laying there. That would show it unfolded. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is -actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you -are saying? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual -size. - -Mr. BELIN. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and -sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this -penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you -saw the sack? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my -partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was -from the wall in either direction, I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in -rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner -of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in -that corner--in the southeast corner of that building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about -that sack? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and -we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle -case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he -probably brought it in. - -That is why, the reason we saved it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that -you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the -assassination is concerned? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else -that was preserved as evidence? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr. -Pepper bottle. - -Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. We turned it into the crime lab. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean your police department crime lab? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are -talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast -corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I -never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they -did use it for something. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way -whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything else. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr. -Johnson. - -You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of -your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive -the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in -Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing -of it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I'd better read it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SEYMOUR WEITZMAN - -The testimony of Seymour Weitzman was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Weitzman, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson, the -court reporter. Will you please stand and raise your right hand? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Seymour Weitzman. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Deputy constable, Dallas County. - -Mr. BALL. What is the location of your place of business? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Precinct 1 which is the old courthouse, third floor, room -351. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Were you educated here in this State? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Partially here and Indiana. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I went through college, graduated in engineering, 1945. - -Mr. BALL. When did you come to Texas? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Do you mean back to Texas? - -Mr. BALL. Back to Texas. - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Right after the service was over and when I came out of -the service. - -Mr. BALL. Did you graduate from school before you went into the service? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I finished up after I received my discharge. I went back -to Indiana to engineering school in South Bend and finished my degree -in 1945. - -Mr. BALL. What school? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Allison Division of General Motors Engineering School. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to Dallas? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Went in business for myself. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of business? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Dresses, garments, ladies garments. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for -Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I supervised 26 -stores for them for approximately 15 years. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which -is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex. -We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson, -Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the -discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, -precinct 1. - -Mr. BALL. You've been there ever since as deputy constable? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I was with another deputy, Bill Hutton. - -Mr. BALL. A deputy constable? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he and I were standing there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we -turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots. - -Mr. BALL. You say you turned and were starting back to the -courthouse--what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at -the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street -entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we -thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean -at that second. - -Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Three distinct shots. - -Mr. BALL. How were they spaced? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. First one, then the second two seemed to be -simultaneously. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the first and then there was a pause? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. There was a little period in between the second and third -shot. - -Mr. BALL. What was the longest, between the first and second or the -second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Between the first and second shot. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, -it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, -whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was -shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall. - -Mr. BALL. What is the location of that wall? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't -remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's -cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the -monument section? - -Mr. BALL. That's where Elm actually dead ends? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands -grabbed steampipes. I burned them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go into the railroad yards? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you notice in the railroad yards? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make -sense because they were going different directions. - -Mr. BALL. Were there other people there besides you? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and -somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back -over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to -be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote -this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told -them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I -later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull. - -Mr. BALL. That you picked up off the street? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What part of the street did you pick this up? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. As the President's car was going off, it would be on the -left-hand side of the street. It would be the---- - -Mr. BALL. The left-hand side facing---- - -Mr. WEITZMAN. That would be the south side of the street. - -Mr. BALL. It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. It was in the street itself. - -Mr. BALL. On the pavement? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the curb? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the -curb, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Off record discussion.) - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, we entered the building and started to search -floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third -floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, I forget, -I believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in -charge of the floor, I forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's -office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. He wanted that gun and it -was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's -department, I can't remember his name, he and I proceeded until we---- - -Mr. BALL. Was his name Boone? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over -the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I -was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking -on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and -I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was -covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye -because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that -gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building. - -Mr. BALL. Did you touch it? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime -lab came up and removed the gun itself. - -Mr. BALL. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I -remember Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz remove anything from the gun? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, I returned to my office and I was called down -to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had -seen. - -Mr. BALL. I have three pictures here which I have marked, respectively, -D, E, F. I show you D first. Does that look anything like the location -where you found the gun? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was -looking under. - -Mr. BALL. Looking from the top side of this picture? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top -side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I -was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in -here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean "in here"? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. In this area [indicating] because at the time we found -the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun. - -Mr. BALL. In this area, you mean protruding over the gun? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it was more hidden than there. - -Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked E. Does that look anything like -the area where the gun was found? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked F. Is that another picture of -the same area? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; as well as I remember, the gun was right in -here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Would you mind making a mark there with a pen? That is on -F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow in ink on F shows the -location? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Down on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Shows the location of the gun on the floor? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything between the place the gun was found; were -there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway -and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but -see it if it was in the open. - -Mr. BALL. Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the -place where the gun was found. - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Same area. - -Mr. BALL. The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was -found? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Off record discussion.) - -Mr. BALL. In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police -Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser -bolt action? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. In a glance, that's what it looked like. - -Mr. BALL. That's what it looked like--did you say that or someone else -say that? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. No; I said that. I thought it was one. - -Mr. BALL. Are you fairly familiar with rifles? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods -business awhile. - -Mr. BALL. What branch of service were you in? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. U.S. Air Force. - -Mr. BALL. Did you handle rifles? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols. - -Mr. BALL. In the Air Force, what were you? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I started out as a flying sergeant. - -Mr. BALL. You flew the plane? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you end up? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I was overseas in Japan. - -Mr. BALL. You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., -is that correct? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there -because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it. - -Mr. BALL. In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the -rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber. - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He did eject one live round? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live -round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not -considering that a shell. - -Mr. BALL. I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal -Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it -looked. - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I? - -Mr. BALL. Mauser bolt action. - -Mr. WEITZMAN. And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was -2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it -turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance. - -Mr. BALL. You also said it was a gun metal color? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Gray or blue? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Blue metal. - -Mr. BALL. And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that -worn? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but -dark oak brown. - -Mr. BALL. Rough wood, was it? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; rough wood. - -Mr. BALL. And it was equipped with a scope? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was it of Japanese manufacture? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. -I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned -out to be a Japanese scope, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to -some yardman? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during -the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw -something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence -and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a -firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was -before we knew the President was dead. - -Mr. BALL. Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was -a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went -over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back -toward the jail. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you have any desire to read this over -and sign it or will you waive signature? - -Mr. WEITZMAN. I will waive my signature. I don't think the Government -is going to alter my statement any. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. R. WESTBROOK - -The testimony of Capt. W. R. Westbrook was taken at 9 a.m., on April -6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. W. R. Westbrook. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your address? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time it is 7642 Daingerfield, Apartment -C, and another address is Route 2, Quinton. I live at both of them. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Captain of police. - -Mr. BALL. The Commission has asked us to put something in the record -about everybody's past experience. Can you tell me about where you were -born--they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read -about you. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I was born in Benton, Ark., November 9, 1917. I was a -farm boy and came to Dallas in 1937, and went on the police department -June 13, 1941, and I served as a radio patrolman for approximately 4 -years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about 6 or 7 years, -and was promoted to captain in 1952, and have held that position since. - -Mr. BALL. What are your duties in general, captain? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time I am personnel officer. We conduct -all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police, -and then we make--we investigate all personnel complaints--not all of -them, but the major ones. - -Mr. BALL. Do you wear a uniform? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it is optional. I don't wear one. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you assigned any special duty? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; other than just my own routine duties. - -Mr. BALL. What were those duties that day? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. 8:15 to 5:15. - -Mr. BALL. And were you in uniform on that day? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I was in my office and Mrs. Kinney, one of the -dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course--it's the -same as everybody says--we didn't believe it until a second look at her -and I realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here -because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and -I don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some -more men at this Texas Depository Building. - -You know, I didn't review my report before I came over here--I didn't -have a chance. I just came off of vacation and they hit me with this -this morning as soon as I got to the office. I can't recall whether or -not it was the dispatcher's office, but I think it was--somebody in the -dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the Texas -Depository Building, so I sent the men that were in my office, which -were then Sergeants Stringer and Carver, and possibly Joe Fields and -McGee, if they were in there--it seems like McGee was, and I think--I -sent them to the building, and then I walked on down the hall spreading -the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down -there, and practically everybody left immediately. I sat around a -while--really not knowing what to do because of the--almost all of -the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and -I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas -Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a -car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository -Building, and I would stop on the way down where there would be a group -of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and I would stop and -catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until I reached -the building. - -Do you want me to continue on? - -Mr. BALL. Go right ahead, sir. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. After we reached the building, or after I reached the -building, I contacted my sergeant Sgt. R. D. Stringer, and he was -standing in front and so then I went into the building to help start -the search and I was on the first floor and I had walked down an aisle -and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when I came out on -this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer -killed in Oak Cliff. - -Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel -officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at -that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman--I don't -recall his name--then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer -Tippit had been shot and killed. - -Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, -and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came -over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into -the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to -that location and it was a false--it was just one of the actually--it -was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news -somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about -Kennedy. - -So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent, -and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an -eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a -lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened. - -Mr. BALL. Where was your car parked at that time? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It wasn't my car--we didn't have one. I don't know where -this officer went after he let us out at the scene. - -Mr. BALL. An officer drove you down to the scene? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. An officer drove us to the scene. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. We were at the squad car--Tippit's squad car--it had -never been moved. - -Mr. BALL. You were near 10th and Patton? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. And she was telling us what had occurred. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No; the other officers got it. - -Mr. BALL. Was it a Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It could have been, sir; I don't recall, because I -directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but -she lived directly across the street, and she told us--or was in the -process of telling us how it occurred--what she had seen, when someone -hollered a patrolman hollered--"It's just come over the radio that -they've got a suspicious person in the Texas Theatre." - -Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, -and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we -arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to -turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because -I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or -three at the back. - -So, I and Barrett--Stringer went to another door, and I and Barrett--we -stopped at the first one--we got out and walked to this first entrance -that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee -of the theatre. - -Again, I do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed--I -don't think I said anything to him--I think he told me, he said, "The -man you are looking for--" Now, right here, Barrett and I became -separated for a short minute or two. I think he was on the other side -of the stage, and I'm not for sure, but this boy reported--he pointed -to a man that was sitting about the middle--the middle row of seats -pretty close to the back and he said, "That is the man you are looking -for." - -And I started toward him and I had taken about two or three steps--down -the steps. - -Mr. BALL. Down the steps from the stage? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. From the stage--yes, sir. Now, I feel sure, and at the -time I think I knew--I'm not sure if I included that in the report, but -I think Barrett was going down the other steps. I think we separated -right there and he got on the other side. - -Mr. BALL. Which side were you on? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I was facing the audience--I would be on the right side. - -Mr. BALL. Facing the audience--that would be on the right side? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I was on the right side. - -Mr. BALL. And if you were facing the screen you would have been on the -left? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I would have been on the left. - -Mr. BALL. The man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the -aisle, if you were facing the screen? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and I -don't know just exactly which--it was the third or fourth row from the -back, it seemed like. - -Mr. BALL. And near what aisle? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. He was about the middle of the aisle. - -Mr. BALL. He was about the middle of the aisle? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time -I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then -Officer McDonald--of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell -it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio -patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and -made a contact, and they started struggling. - -Mr. BALL. You say "the boy come up," what did he do? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. He got up from the seat and they started fighting. - -Mr. BALL. Were the lights on in the theatre? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the -lights were on very dim. - -Mr. BALL. They started fighting--what sort of fighting did you see? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and -McDonald grab him. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the -way he was sitting facing me--I would say it would be his left fist. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you see? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running -and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on -him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the -aisle--he got there at the same time I did. - -I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and -finally some officer--I don't know which one it was--says, "Yes; I have -the gun." - -Mr. BALL. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either -McDonald or anyone else? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I heard Oswald say something about police -brutality--Oswald yelled something about police brutality. - -Mr. BALL. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you -hear McDonald say anything? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from -where I was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear the man say anything? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think -that was just all he yelled--was said while I was in the aisle walking -down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that -time. - -Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. They were putting the handcuffs on him--they had one -handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and -they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many -hands there. - -Mr. BALL. How many officers were there? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. In fact--that was one of the only humorous things about -the whole thing--somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were -twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled--I remember that, -"My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of -the crowd that somebody grabbed. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at -the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with -Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and -grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of -the shotgun; did you see that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened -without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the -struggle. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody ever tell you that story before? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I've heard that. - -Mr. BALL. That's the first time you have ever heard it? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was -in play. - -Mr. BALL. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who -approached Oswald have a gun in their hand? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. In the theatre--I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any at any other time? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library. - -Mr. BALL. But did you enter the theatre with a gun? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, no. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform -within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir--not that I recall, but of course at that time -I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I -probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been -somebody come in with a shotgun. - -Mr. BALL. Were you in uniform at that time? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then--some -way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald--where this was going on, and -I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about like this---- - -Mr. BALL. That's close to a foot? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; I'd say 10 inches. - -Mr. BALL. Ten inches. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so -that was the only thing. Then I yelled--there was so much confusion and -it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get -him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city -hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left -with him. - -Mr. BALL. Were you the senior officer there? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Possibly--I don't think there was another captain there. -There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and -take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time. - -Mr. BALL. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have -only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the -time--the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure -at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have -patrons. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him, -as close to him as you did in the theatre? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It seemed like there was a scratch or something--I don't -remember exactly--when I looked at him--maybe a slight discoloration, -or it might have been bleeding slightly. - -Mr. BALL. Under the right eye? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I believe it would be--you--yes, sir; it would be under -the right eye. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Sergeant Warren on the right---- - -Mr. BALL. What is his full name? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left--I don't -know--I don't know his name. Of course, I know him. - -Mr. BALL. That's Sergeant Warren on the right? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is his assignment? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. He is jail supervisor. - -Mr. BALL. And do you know when the picture was taken? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on -Oswald's face. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little -discoloration there--I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit -more so than it does there, but you can see some. - -Mr. BALL. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise. - -Mr. BALL. The bruise under the eye? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him. - -Mr. BALL. Under which eye? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I think it was the right eye--no, wait a minute, that -would be the left eye--left eye. - -Mr. BALL. You do recall that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. The one that was facing me--he was facing me. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye--when? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many -officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the -group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to -straighten up, with as many officers as there were there--I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise -under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just -from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the -fact that he had hollered "brutality"--well I'm getting ahead of myself -here, so I'll just quit. - -Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as -soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on -his face, I sent him on upstairs. - -Mr. BALL. As soon as Oswald arrived? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do -with Oswald after he got to the city hall. - -Mr. BALL. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather -long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture -made--there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession. - -Mr. BALL. That was Officer McDonald--you had his picture taken -immediately of his face? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. What happened after that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him--with -Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him taken from the theatre? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; because I went the other way. - -Mr. BALL. You went to the back? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald -again--that's the last time I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do after that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever find some clothing? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That was before, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. When was that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Actually, I didn't find it--it was pointed out to me by -either some officer that--that was while we were going over the scene -in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out -a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and -told the officer to take the license number. - -Mr. BALL. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what -you had done, but you omitted this incident. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I tell you what--this occurred shortly--let me think -just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit -more conversation on the radio--I got on the radio and I asked the -dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the -library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was -in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that -time we saw Sergeant Owens pass. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "command post"? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the definition--the way we place a command -post--maybe I can use another illustration. - -If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there -should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens, -as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but -let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire. - -In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of -Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we -didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons -was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, -but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the -library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street--I -would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would -be West Jefferson--because 10th comes through--yes; that would be West -Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene. - -Mr. BALL. That was after you left the library? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. After we left the library. I got out of the car and -walked through the parking lot. - -Mr. BALL. What parking lot? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't know--it may have been a used-car lot. - -Mr. BALL. On what street? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this -jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. The alley of what? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over -there. - -Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is the street north. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. What street? - -Mr. BALL. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th -Street. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street? - -Mr. BALL. And where with reference to Patton? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of -Patton--I guess it would be east of Patton. - -Mr. BALL. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be -toward Patton? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Toward town--if I could see a map? - -Mr. BALL. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness]. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I used to be very familiar with that. - -Mr. BALL. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located--here -is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland, -Storey, and Crawford--I would say it would be between Crawford and -Storey. - -Mr. BALL. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there. - -Mr. BALL. That would be west of Patton. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That would be west of Patton--yes, sir; toward the -theatre. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you came from the library--where is that library? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must -be here on Turner Plaza right here. - -Mr. BALL. You drove west on Jefferson, did you? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. We drove west on Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. And you got out of the car where? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. We got out of the car about here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. At what street? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It was between two streets, and I would say it was -between this Storey and Crawford. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you get out of the car at that time? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Just more or less searching--just no particular -reason--just searching the area. - -Mr. BALL. You were just looking around to see what you could see? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun--I had borrowed a -shotgun from a patrolman. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got out of the car? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking -area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my -location or not, but I think I'm right. - -Mr. BALL. You walked through a car lot, did you? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; and I think I came out--is that a -church--there's a church right there close by. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, there could have been--yes, sir. There was either a -used-car lot or a parking lot--that I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I show you some pictures here. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I would recognize it in the picture. - -Mr. BALL. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of -Crawford and Jefferson. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. At Crawford and Jefferson? - -Mr. BALL. There is a parking area behind that. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. This looks more like it. - -Mr. BALL. The Texaco station? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes--the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket -was found was right along in here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a -parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at -the corner of Crawford and Jefferson? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You walked through there, did you? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through from Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. From Jefferson? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. There is an old house--the only thing--I come down -by this station there--there is an old house there and some of the -officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and -there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further -attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly--this may be it--it -appears to be it right here in the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Put an arrow showing the old house. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I think this is it right here--I can't be positive, but -I think that's it. - -Mr. BALL. Make an arrow with a pen. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. The arrow marks the point of an old house. - -Mr. BALL. That you walked toward, is that right? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have marked that old house? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do and what did you see? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, there were several officers--there were some at -the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a -moment and then I walked on. - -Mr. BALL. You walked where? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I think I come up this way. - -Mr. BALL. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Towards the parking lot--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Behind the Texaco service station? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and -some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be -positive--pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly -under the rear of one of the cars. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a car was it? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take -the make and the license number. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take the number yourself? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No. - -Mr. BALL. What was the name of the officer? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I couldn't tell you that, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37. -Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has -marked "old house." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for -identification.) - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place -where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95." - -Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the -area, was probably right along in here. - -Mr. BALL. Put a circle there in the general area. - -(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. The jacket was underneath a car? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. But, I am guessing on this--slightly underneath a car. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean you are guessing on this--what are you -guessing about? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. About where the jacket was found in this picture. - -Mr. BALL. You mean it was under---- - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was -under the one I put it under or not. - -Mr. BALL. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you -couldn't swear which? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but -I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot. - -Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition. - -Now, you don't know the name of the officer? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things -that were happening so fast. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize anything in that picture? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39. -View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.") - -Mr. WESTBROOK. I still think this is the house here--I think this is -the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket -was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was -some--more room from where the cars were from what is shown there--back -this way. - -Mr. BALL. Point out the old house. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. This one. - -Mr. BALL. Mark it. - -(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, that, I don't believe I could do---- - -Mr. BALL. Was it near the alley? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It was near--but not this close--it don't seem to me. - -Mr. BALL. Not as close as shown in the picture? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It don't seem to me--I can't remember for sure. - -Mr. BALL. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket -over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I -think that would be on 10th Street. - -Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. That is exactly the jacket we found. - -Mr. BALL. That is the jacket you found? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you turned it over to whom? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, it was to this officer--that got the name. - -Mr. BALL. Does your report show the name of the officer? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen--it -was happening so fast you don't remember those things. - -Mr. BALL. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. To 10th and Patton--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And from there you went to the theatre? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't -remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but -anyway, we got together again--probably at 10th and Patton. - -Mr. BALL. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was -brought in? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't -have been. - -Mr. BALL. But it was brought to your office? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. And it was marked by some officer? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or -three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and -told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up -after it. I didn't take it down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly could have--he was in there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the gun unloaded? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the -gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look at any of the shells? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look the gun over? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions? - -Mr. ELY. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left -orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and -you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it? - -Mr. WESTBROOK. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I -don't know who has the list. - -Mr. ELY. That's all. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's -just--the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day -he worked with me. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions? - -Mr. STERN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain. - -Mr. WESTBROOK. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ELMER L. BOYD - -The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964, -in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to -give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BOYD. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. BOYD. Elmer L. Boyd. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. BOYD. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the -Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't -you? - -Mr. BOYD. I think they received one over at the office and they -notified me. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation -is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of -your investigation. - -Mr. BOYD. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your -life? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro -County--the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about -15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north -of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country -school--it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years -and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my -second grade. The reason I was in the second grade--I had to go through -a primer before I got in the first grade--I didn't fail--I just had to -go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated -from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy -and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the -Navy--I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from -there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D. -Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that--somewhere -around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to--I -transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another -destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of -January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where -I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated -in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was -about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to -Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since. - -I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that -I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started -out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a -collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I -think I worked a couple of more places before then--one for a printing -company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a -while, but I didn't stay there long. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in homicide? - -Mr. BOYD. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957. - -Mr. BALL. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4 -to midnight. - -Mr. BALL. So, on that day you went to work earlier? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. BOYD. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by -this? - -Mr. BALL. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on -Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No. -629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840." - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; we are partners. - -Mr. BALL. Did you prepare that report yourself? - -Mr. BOYD. He and I together prepared it. - -Mr. BALL. When did you prepare it? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--the last part of November--I'm not sure of the -date. - -Mr. BALL. Was it within a week after the events took place that are -recorded there? - -Mr. BOYD. I would say so; yes. - -Mr. BALL. You dictated it to a secretary? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the -secretary and she typed it up. - -Mr. BALL. It was written out in your longhand? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have those longhand notes? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims' -deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it. - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what -you were doing in a notebook? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you work? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you just jot things down as they occur? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have that notebook with you? - -Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know where it is? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of -the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the -particular times, you know, and after I fixed this--I don't recall what -I did with it. I may have torn it up. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at -all times? - -Mr. BOYD. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it, -I'm sure. - -Mr. BALL. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have -anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of -November? - -Mr. BOYD. Of 1963--I don't recall if I have these showups in there or -not--it seems like I did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have it with you? - -Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. Can you get it for me? - -Mr. BOYD. I probably could if I have it. - -Mr. BALL. Will you look it up? - -Mr. BOYD. I will look for it. - -Mr. BALL. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10 -o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me -see it if you still have it? - -Mr. BOYD. All right. - -Mr. BALL. I'll be up there in your department--near Captain Fritz' -office. - -Mr. BOYD. What time--at 10 o'clock? - -Mr. BALL. At 10 o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. BOYD. I'll be there--I come on at 10. - -Mr. BALL. You come on at 10? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then, I'll see you in the morning. - -Mr. BOYD. All right. - -Mr. BALL. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work -early; why was that? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was -assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade -Mart. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you hear that the President had been shot? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; I heard that. - -Mr. BALL. You heard that over the radio, didn't you? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson -called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told -him that--Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the -President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass -and was on his way to Parkland. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go over there? - -Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr. -Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we -went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there -were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front -of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene -of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book -Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also -out there, and he rode back down with us. - -Mr. BALL. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School -Depository Building at that time? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that -they thought that the shot came from--from the Texas Book Store. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard that? - -Mr. BOYD. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that--pulling out--we -were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out -in the car. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you -do? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three -stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to -the top floor--I believe it was the top one--I think it's the seventh -floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle -hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. And you were with whom at that time? - -Mr. BOYD. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the sixth floor? - -Mr. BOYD. We stopped at the sixth floor--you say, did we go down to the -sixth floor? - -Mr. BALL. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what -you did. - -Mr. BOYD. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on -the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose -it was books--boxes of books stacked up back over there that way. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the hulls on the floor? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were -on the floor? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I -think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes. - -Mr. BALL. That was west? - -Mr. BOYD. Right; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Near the windows? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; they were near the windows. - -Mr. BALL. How far west from where the hulls were located? - -Mr. BOYD. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably. - -Mr. BALL. Where, with reference to the rows of windows--there are pairs -of windows--how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were -located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't recall just how many rows of windows -from there it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think -it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast -corner. - -Mr. BALL. Third or fourth? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Pair of windows? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; now--pair of windows--let's see. - -Mr. BALL. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street -side--now, what sort of sack was it? - -Mr. BOYD. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack--it looked -like a lunch sack. - -Mr. BALL. About the size of a lunch sack? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other paper sack around there? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall any if I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where -the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were -found? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you see? - -Mr. BOYD. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had -been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest -corner over there. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that located? - -Mr. BOYD. It was down between some boxes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs -taken of the hulls? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I -believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the -scene of the hulls. - -Mr. BALL. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see -pictures taken there? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there. - -Mr. BALL. By whom? - -Mr. BOYD. Lieutenant Day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there? - -Mr. BOYD. I saw a lot of officers. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find anything yourself? - -Mr. BOYD. Not on the sixth floor--I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere--near 2 -o'clock--I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been -between 1:30 and 2 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found? - -Mr. BOYD. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been -found? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him eject anything from it? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it -after Lieutenant Day came over there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out. - -Mr. BALL. You heard about it? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't -you? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but -someone--when we got downstairs--someone told Captain Fritz that -Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office. - -Mr. BALL. You say you started to go where? - -Mr. BOYD. Irving, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place -to go to in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. -He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and -I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the -address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? - -Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like -I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see -him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in -there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought -was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted -to go by there and we carried him there. - -Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had -been arrested for the murder of Tippit? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on -the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the -suspect for the murder of Tippit? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when -we heard about him being arrested over there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you -remember? - -Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there. - -Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there--I -don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, -and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation -room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee -Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office -and he talked to him in there. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; -yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time? - -Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time--? - -Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI -agents. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? - -Mr. BOYD. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr. -Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there. - -Mr. BALL. And who else was there? - -Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner. - -Mr. BALL. He's your other partner? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in -there? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I think there was a Secret Service man there, but -I don't recall--I don't know what his name was. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said. - -Mr. BALL. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said? - -Mr. BOYD. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. Give me the substance. - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. BOYD. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him--I'm -sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he -would quit. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask him where he lived? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he lived over on Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give the address? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address--I -know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south--I -remember that--he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley -and I remember another thing--Mr. Hosty came in and identified him -himself, you know, as he came in. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean "identified him"? - -Mr. BOYD. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down -there in front of him and told him who he was with. - -Mr. BALL. He told Oswald his name and who he was with? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What else happened? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, they participated in the interrogation--Mr. Hosty asked -him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression--what -happened? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his -house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate -him coming out there when he wasn't there. - -Mr. BALL. Is that what he said to Hosty? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall--I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions -and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down, -and like I say, he was pretty upset. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into -the room? - -Mr. BOYD. I couldn't say if they had or not--they could have been. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got -in the room? - -Mr. BOYD. They could have been changed after he got in the room--I'm -not certain. - -Mr. BALL. Who changed them? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the -desk with what? With his hand? - -Mr. BOYD. With his hands. - -Mr. BALL. What did Hosty ask him before that? - -Mr. BOYD. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City? - -Mr. BALL. Who did? - -Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. BOYD. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City. - -Mr. BALL. What else? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall just exactly--I think that the words that he -used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there -and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like -I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming -out there to his house. - -Mr. BALL. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck -the desk with his hand--what question did he ask? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had -something to do with--let me see--I'm not sure if he was still talking -to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City. - -Mr. BALL. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald said he had not? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been to Mexico. - -Mr. BALL. And what did Hosty say to that? - -Mr. BOYD. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City--I've just -forgotten--it wasn't too awful long before that--I don't recall just -exactly what time that he said--I know it was something recent. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand--I don't. - -Mr. STERN. Did he ask him anything about Russia? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; something was asked him--I don't recall who asked -him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he -was there in 1959, or something like that--about 1959. I'll tell you, -I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right -beside Oswald--right in front of him--more or less. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody keep notes? - -Mr. BOYD. I saw the FBI man writing--they had a little book--across the -table over there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any microphones in there to record the -conversation? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your -prisoners? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; we don't. - -Mr. BALL. How long did this take--how long was he questioned at this -time? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--we took him down to the first showup right after -4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here--4:05 is when we left. - -Mr. BALL. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in -there--what time was that? - -Mr. BOYD. At 2:15-2:20. - -Mr. BALL. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05. - -Mr. BALL. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him? - -Mr. BOYD. Who picked the men? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who picked those men. - -Mr. BALL. Did you? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did Sims? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did--I don't recall who picked those men. - -Mr. BALL. Who were the men in this showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, one of them's names was--we call him Bill Perry, his -name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and -we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables -was No. 4. - -Mr. BALL. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office. - -Mr. BALL. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I have seen them in there before--I mean--it isn't done -real often. - -Mr. BALL. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers. - -Mr. BALL. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It is unusual? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed -with the suspect, isn't it? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case? - -Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with -you and with Oswald into the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. When we got ready for the showup. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with -Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean -where--where were you when you heard that officers were going to take -part in the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee -Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail -office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection. - -Mr. BALL. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you find? - -Mr. BOYD. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five. - -Mr. BALL. Live? Live shells? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with them? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of -the property up there to be turned in. - -Mr. BALL. Did you put any mark on them? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I can look and see. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will -you take a look at that--at the cartridges? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes--I got my mark on them. - -Mr. BALL. You have your mark on all five of them? - -Mr. BOYD. I have my mark on the first three--yes, sir--I have my mark -on all of them. - -Mr. BALL. On all five of them? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You put those marks on there, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether -these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the -cartridges which you took from Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; they are. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you when you put the mark on them? - -Mr. BOYD. I was back up in my office. - -Mr. BALL. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them? - -Mr. BOYD. I put them in my pocket. - -Mr. BALL. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on -them, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And turned them over to whom? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--it seems like we had a drawer there where -we had some more property, where we put it all in there--you know, -where they had the other stuff--I have forgotten just exactly where it -would be. - -Mr. BALL. You turned them over to someone in the police department? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup -were you on? Stage side or out front? - -Mr. BOYD. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into -that showup room from the room leading into the jail office. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--at one of the showups--I've forgotten whether it -was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--Sims asked -him some questions in one of those showups. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions? - -Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed that were in this showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and -one of them--let's see--I don't recall what color, but some of them--I -don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their -ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves. - -Mr. BALL. Without a tie--did he have a tie on? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers, -Perry? - -Mr. BOYD. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his -shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that. - -Mr. BALL. What about Clark? - -Mr. BOYD. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not -sure--well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember -seeing him in a white shirt as he came in. - -Mr. BALL. Were they manacled--handcuffed? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; they were handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. All four of them? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes--handcuffed together. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald have on? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, he had on some--I believe it was dark slacks--it seems -like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It -seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--I'm not too -sure about that jacket--I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks. - -Mr. BALL. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the -other three, weren't they? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, could have been. - -Mr. BALL. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you -say? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole -in the elbow, didn't he? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did or not--I'm not sure. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did -he reply? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply. - -Mr. BALL. Was he angry? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe he was too angry. - -Mr. BALL. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him shouting. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time? - -Mr. BOYD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did he at some other showup protest? - -Mr. BOYD. I heard he did, but I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present? - -Mr. BOYD. I wasn't present at that one. - -Mr. BALL. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest -of the type of showup? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. This day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a -fair showup? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't -think it was fair to put those men in with him? - -Mr. BALL. He didn't tell me that--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair? - -Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the -audience part of the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I couldn't--I don't recall any of it--I couldn't -hear anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there? - -Mr. BOYD. I couldn't see them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were -out in the audience? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup? - -Mr. BOYD. I took him back--I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz' -office. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get him back there? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20--I believe--yes; -that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been -off. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at that interrogation? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--I don't recall who was up there--I think -there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there -and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there. - -Mr. BALL. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one. -I think another one came in--now, I never did know--there was another -one that came in--now, I never did know--then there was another one -that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an -FBI man--I never did know. But someone--I believe, called him back out -right after he got in there, but I'm not sure. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the FBI agents? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How about the Secret Service? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't know their names. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a Secret Service man there? - -Mr. BOYD. I think there was a Secret Service man there. - -Mr. BALL. More than one? - -Mr. BOYD. Just one. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know his name? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see if I have it here. - -Mr. BALL. Was Kelley there? - -Mr. BOYD. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation. - -Mr. BALL. How long did this one last that started at 4:20? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back -downstairs for another showup. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz' -office? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long. - -Mr. BALL. Did you feed Oswald at any time? - -Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall--I don't know--I believe someone asked him if he -wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a -cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall--I don't -recall just exactly the time--that's M. G. Hall. - -Mr. BALL. He's one of your partners? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think--let me see--I know -that he gave him a cup of coffee. - -Mr. BALL. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your -custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that -night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat? - -Mr. BOYD. I ate real late that night--I don't remember just what time -it was. - -Mr. BALL. How late? - -Mr. BOYD. I think I ate around 9 o'clock--I'm not sure about that--it -could have been 10. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you -remember what was said? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I sure don't. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in front or behind? - -Mr. BOYD. They were in front of him, I believe, still. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that took place at that -interrogation--anything that was said? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir--I sure don't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And who was present at that showup? - -Mr. BOYD. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were -numbered the same as they were before. - -Mr. BALL. Were the men dressed any differently? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before. - -Mr. BALL. And do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions? - -Mr. BOYD. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some -questions. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first -showup that afternoon? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day? - -Mr. BOYD. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask questions at any of the showups? - -Mr. BOYD. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I -don't really know. - -Mr. BALL. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions--at -6:20? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; I think he answered the questions. - -Mr. BALL. Was he angry? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being angry. - -Mr. BALL. Did he talk louder than the other three men? - -Mr. BOYD. Not especially that I noticed. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the -audience part of the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what -they said to the officers? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup? - -Mr. BOYD. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time? - -Mr. BOYD. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we -took him there. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston -[spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill -Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name--they came -in with Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was there too, was he? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What took place there? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee -Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation that took place there at that -time in front of Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was it, that you can remember? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to -Oswald, and--well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of -anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir--I heard--I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to -him about shooting Officer Tippit--I don't remember what interrogation -it was in. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the -President, President Kennedy? - -Mr. BOYD. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the -President. - -Mr. BALL. Who talked to him about it? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe it was Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston -read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said -anything? - -Mr. BOYD. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was. - -Mr. BALL. You don't recall that? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald did make some statement, though? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe he said something--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask for a lawyer? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--I -believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York -City. - -Mr. BALL. When did he say that? When did he tell you that? - -Mr. BOYD. It was--either right before the first showup, or right after -the first showup. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking -to Captain Fritz--yes. - -Mr. BALL. This was in Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did Fritz say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on -for him to use the telephone later on and call him. - -Mr. BALL. Was anything said about who would pay for the call? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. No mention of that? - -Mr. BOYD. I think he said he would call collect--I'm not sure. - -Mr. BALL. Who said that--Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr. -Clements--I believe, came in there. - -Mr. BALL. In where? - -Mr. BOYD. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. And do you remember what he asked him? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked -him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in -Russia--when he went to Russia and when he came back--I don't recall -all of that. - -Mr. BALL. And Oswald answered the questions? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I'll tell you--Oswald, he answered his questions -until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by -another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his -interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and -he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else -to say. - -He came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him -he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, -and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short -interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe -I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't -care to say anything else." - -And sat back down. - -Mr. BALL. He stood up and said that, did he? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair -and said, "I don't care to talk any more." - -Mr. BALL. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't -it? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third -showup that you participated in? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that took place at what time? - -Mr. BOYD. It was 7:30, let me see, no--7:40. - -Mr. BALL. And who took part in that showup? - -Mr. BOYD. You mean the officers? - -Mr. BALL. No; who were the parties in the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2 -was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was--I have the wrong name in here--I -have the last name--I just asked him his name as he came out in the -showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it -was Brazel. - -Mr. BALL. Brazell--how do you spell that? - -Mr. BOYD. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l. - -Mr. BALL. What is his full name? - -Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel. - -Mr. BALL. He was the third man? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was the fourth man? - -Mr. BOYD. Don Ables was the fourth. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the -showup? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't know any reason. - -Mr. BALL. Who directed that? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they -had those three men down there. - -Mr. BALL. What is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup -and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear -in the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and -have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them -send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and -we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four -men--whatever the case may be. - -Mr. BALL. Who picks them? - -Mr. BOYD. The jailers upstairs. - -Mr. BALL. Do you tell them to get them all the same color? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. -I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color. - -Mr. BALL. What about the size and weight? - -Mr. BOYD. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size -and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they -don't. - -Mr. BALL. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup? - -Mr. BOYD. I didn't know them--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or any of the showups? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this third showup took place at what time? - -Mr. BOYD. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3 -minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to -go back up at 7:55. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you -attended? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who did. - -Mr. BALL. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than -the first two. - -Mr. BALL. What about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's -take the No. 1 man--what was his coloring and weight and size? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He -was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161 -pounds. - -Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t? - -Mr. BOYD. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. - -Mr. BALL. 161 pounds? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion. - -Mr. BALL. What was he in for, do you know? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and -theft. - -Mr. BALL. Then, the second man was who? - -Mr. BOYD. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. And the third man--was who? - -Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l. - -Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was No. 3 and what is his description? - -Mr. BOYD. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10", -169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion. - -Mr. BALL. What was he in for? - -Mr. BOYD. I think he was in for tickets. - -Mr. BALL. You mean, going too fast--speeding? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue -tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what I -think he was in for. - -Mr. BALL. And Don Ables is the fourth man? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too? - -Mr. BOYD. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds. - -Mr. BALL. What do you have Oswald down for? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he -was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds--I believe that is -what he told me. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Or to Brazel? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner -any different than it had been the first two showups? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall it being any different. - -Mr. BALL. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he -started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset. - -Mr. BALL. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an -hour. - -Mr. BALL. Then, after that what happened? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes -Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came -down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective -Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly -afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes -and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went. - -Mr. BALL. What did Barnes do? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of -Oswald's hands and the right side of his face. - -Mr. BALL. You were there when that happened? - -Mr. BOYD. I was in and out--I was in more than I was out. I was in and -out at the time that was going on. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened--what did you do after that? - -Mr. BOYD. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee -Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald then? - -Mr. BOYD. He was still up in the homicide office. - -Mr. BALL. Did you question him again? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came -in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the -assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he -told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if -anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail. - -Mr. BOYD. What did you do then? - -Mr. BOYD. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so. - -Mr. BALL. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes--describe what -you did? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there. - -Mr. BALL. Television cameras? - -Mr. BOYD. I believe there was some cameras in there--I'm not sure about -the cameras--I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They -had some cameras on the outside. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. We took him up there and some of them asked him some -questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally -we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and -put him in the jail. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald angry? - -Mr. BOYD. Part of the time he was. - -Mr. BALL. What was said--can you remember? - -Mr. BOYD. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you -shoot the President?" - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. BOYD. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone." - -Mr. BALL. You took him on up there, then, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you put him in jail for the night, did you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then you went home and went to bed? - -Mr. BOYD. Later on I did. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work the next day--that would be -November 23. - -Mr. BOYD. I think I got in around 9 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BOYD. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 -and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail -again and brought him down to my office. - -Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that? - -Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you brought him down to your office? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. -marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office -at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was in the office? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz -were there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there. - -Mr. BOYD. Well, he came back out after we got him down there--that's -right. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed there, didn't you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you heard what was said? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us what you heard. - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two. - -Mr. BALL. What were they? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't recall what questions he asked. - -Mr. BALL. Who else asked questions? - -Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz talked to him and--let me see--I don't remember -if Mr. Bookhout--it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two--I -believe all of them asked him something. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what they asked? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like -I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near -Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes; he was handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back? - -Mr. BOYD. They were in the front of him. - -Mr. BALL. How long did this questioning last? - -Mr. BOYD. It didn't last too awful long--about an hour or so, I -believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BOYD. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another -detective in our bureau--went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck -Oswald's room out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go out there then? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm not sure if I had a search warrant--I know -the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search -warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had -a search warrant. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't have one? - -Mr. BOYD. I didn't have one. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know whether you had one or not? - -Mr. BOYD. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it. - -Mr. BALL. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North -Beckley the day before? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And it was searched the day before--you knew that, didn't you? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When you searched it this day, what did you find? - -Mr. BOYD. Nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take anything with you? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You took nothing out? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of furnishings did you see in there? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser--it -barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to -walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works -were--wasn't any wider than that--just about that wide [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. The whole room? - -Mr. BOYD. The whole room. - -Mr. BALL. It wasn't any wider than how many feet? - -Mr. BOYD. I would say it wasn't over about 12 feet long and about 5 -feet wide or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did it have curtains on the windows? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, it had--let's see, I'm not sure if it was curtains or -blinds. It had one little bed in there and it barely did have room -enough to get in there and go to bed. - -Mr. BALL. You don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald again that day? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did--let me see. - -Mr. BALL. Well, it says in your report you brought him in at 6:30. - -Mr. BOYD. I didn't do that. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't do it? You were off duty? - -Mr. BOYD. I wasn't off duty, but I just wasn't at the office at that -time. - -Mr. BALL. You don't think you saw him again? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. What about November 24? - -Mr. BOYD. I worked late on the night of the 23d so I wouldn't have to -come back early the next morning. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you were with him on the 24th? - -Mr. BOYD. I wasn't with him on the 24th--I was watching on the TV at -home--I wasn't at home--I was out at my mother-in-law's at Irving, -Tex., and I called Lieutenant Baker right after I learned about Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. I want to ask you a question about Oswald's appearance when -you first saw him. Did he have any marks on his face? - -Mr. BOYD. He had one markup--I believe it was on his left eye--the -thing that I noticed or was noticeable. And I asked him where he got -that and he said, "Well, I struck an officer and he struck me back." He -said, "Which he should have done." - -Mr. BALL. Did he say "He should have done that?" Did Oswald say that? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I want the exact words, not your version--give me the exact -words. - -Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you--I asked him how he got this place on his eye, -and he says, "Well, I struck an officer and the officer struck me back, -which he should have done." - -Mr. BALL. Those were the exact words? - -Mr. BOYD. Those were the exact words. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything else said about that? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the -officers at the time of the arrest? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever use the term that "police brutality"--did he ever -use that term to you? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality". - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time when a lawyer visited Oswald? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I wasn't present--we asked him, did he want a lawyer -here--Captain Fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he -didn't want a lawyer, he wanted Mr. Abt. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have some questions? - -Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald--the way he handled -himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you? - -Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you, I've never saw another man just exactly like -him. - -Mr. STERN. In what way? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as -soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer -right back--he didn't hesitate about his answers. I mean, as soon as -you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back -and, like I said, I never saw a man that could answer questions like he -did. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once -in a while he would--I don't know just how to tell you, but every now -and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next -minute he would just liable to be--I mean his attitude, you know, would -change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would -be talking to you he was rather calm. - -Mr. STERN. When it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it -change apparently? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody -would say something--some little something he didn't like, and he -would--he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he -jumped up and slapped the desk. - -Mr. STERN. During the Hosty interrogation? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. He seemed to you to understand generally his rights? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And do you know that he wasn't required to answer? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Of course, this was a long day for everybody--did he seem by -the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear -tired or particularly worn out? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, he didn't appear to be as tired as I felt--he didn't -appear to be, because I imagine he could have been tired--he didn't -show it. - -Mr. STERN. This is quite unnatural--really rather exceptional; this is, -of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two -people, one of them the President of the United States, and at the end -of the day, he is pretty well in command? - -Can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed -to you--anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall? - -Mr. BOYD. I don't know--he just struck me as being the man, you know, -who liked to move around a lot--I don't know that he did, but he just -struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and--in -one place. - -Mr. BALL. When you participated in the search of Oswald and found five -pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of -these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to -him about it? - -Mr. BOYD. I just asked him, "What were they doing in there," and he -said, "I just had them in my pocket." - -Mr. STERN. The memorandum mentions the cartridges--bus transfer, except -that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to -Mr. Sims, Do you remember any other items that he had that you got from -him during this search? - -Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I know that Mr. Sims did get the bus transfer and -took his ring--he took his ring off and give it to Mr. Sims, and I got -those five shells, and that's all that I recall being taken from him. - -Mr. STERN. Do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of -that investigation? - -Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm trying to think if he had an identification -bracelet. - -When we were up in Captain Fritz' office the first time--I recall--I -don't recall if I saw that bracelet then or not--it seemed like I did. -I know I saw a little card with his picture on it. - -Mr. STERN. But this was not something you obtained in your search? - -Mr. BOYD. No; I didn't. - -Mr. STERN. That had been obtained earlier, apparently. - -That's all. Do you have anything else? - -Mr. ELY. Yes. Mr. Boyd, when you first saw Oswald when you went to the -interrogation room and got him--do you remember that? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your -arrival? - -Mr. BOYD. I am not positive about who was with him--there's some -uniformed men in there and I believe there was Officer K. E. Lyons, -but I would be afraid to say for sure, because I'm not positive, but I -believe that's who it was. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they -talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know? - -Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't know. I just took it that they were the ones -that brought him into--into the office up there. They were more or less -just waiting for somebody. - -I just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the -Texas Theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our -office from Oak Cliff. - -Mr. ELY. Now, referring to the press conference Friday night, I believe -you mentioned that part of the time Oswald seemed angry to you, do you -know what it was that upset him? - -Mr. BOYD. When someone called to him and asked him why he shot the -President, that seemed like that's what upset him. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked -the people in the various lineups--you don't know exactly, but did you -know, is there anybody you could tell us? - -Mr. BOYD. I just don't know who it would be. - -Mr. ELY. On Friday night, about what time did you check Oswald into the -jail there? - -Mr. BOYD. I think it was around 12:20 in the morning, I believe. -According to my watch, I believe that's what I went by--that's what the -time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. We turned him -over to the jailers at 12:23 a.m. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again -after that time? Late at night--I realize you checked him out the next -morning. - -Mr. BOYD. No sir; I don't know. - -Mr. ELY. You I don't know? - -Mr. BOYD. No. - -Mr. ELY. I believe that's all I have. - -Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Boyd, this will be written up and it will be -submitted to you and you can read it over and correct it and sign it -if you wish. That's one procedure you can follow. - -Or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the -Commission as it is if you waive your signature. You have your -option--you can do either one. - -Mr. BOYD. I think she probably got it down all right--I'll trust her. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you are waiving your signature? - -Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much, and I am glad to have met you. - -Mr. BOYD. Glad to have met you, Mr. Ball. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEE STUDEBAKER - -The testimony of Robert Lee Studebaker was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April -6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this -Commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. R. L. Studebaker--Robert Lee. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to appear here to give testimony -in this inquiry, have you not, by your Chief of Police, who told you -that we had a matter requiring your testimony? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The subject of the testimony is the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -You made certain investigations on November 22 and 23 and 24 with -respect to that, did you not? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you -tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went -to school, and what your training is? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several -schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and -came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since -February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene -Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work -that you are doing? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's just on-the-job training--you go out with old -officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and -fingerprints. - -Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in identification -fingerprints? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we -are. We just compare them. - -Mr. BALL. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that -we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for -the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and -things, we have a special powder that we used on that. - -Mr. BALL. Then you take a picture of the print--a photograph? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just -lift the print and then tape it to preserve it. - -Mr. BALL. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising it up; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. By means of your dusting powder? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up -there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what -it's used for. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. In the morning? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What are your hours--7 to 3? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 to 3. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go down there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I believe we got the call about 1:05--we was down there -about 1:15. - -Mr. BALL. And whom did you go with? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call. - -Mr. BALL. What equipment did you take with you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. -We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff--a station wagon. - -Mr. BALL. Each one of you had a camera, did you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we just had one camera. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of camera was it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex. - -Mr. BALL. Have you had some experience in operating a camera? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How much? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on this certain camera? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. About 2 months. - -Mr. BALL. But you have had photography in your crime lab work? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. For how long? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Was about 2 months. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you done photography altogether? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. In my lifetime? - -Mr. BALL. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of -years? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st -of October. - -Mr. BALL. You did--had you done any photography before that? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just home photography. - -Mr. BALL. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you -mentioned? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what else? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck -complete. - -Mr. BALL. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for -different substances? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many different kinds of powder do you have? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting -prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano -powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we -purchased this new powder--it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of -powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out -of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better -than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print -than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder--a magnetic -powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a -silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on -different types surfaces. - -Mr. BALL. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which -is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that -it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent -fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your -skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until -you put your powder on there and then it raises it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book -Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the -sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as -soon as you arrived there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there. - -Mr. BALL. After you were there a little while, did somebody find -something? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of -the building--they found three empty hulls and we went over there and -took photographs of that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have that photograph with you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Could I see it, please? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day -took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took -myself--these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one -was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here, -and a hull over here. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you -took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit -A," for identification.) - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the -bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull--you can just -barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, -the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one--I didn't -know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull -this way. - -You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get -over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on -everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was -ever moved or picked up. - -There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two -recopies. We printed a bunch of them. - -Mr. BALL. Is this the same picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there -either. - -Mr. BALL. It doesn't show it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box. - -Mr. BALL. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is -Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit -B." - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit -B," for identification.) - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing -west, and this one here is facing east. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the -camera facing west? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Exhibit B is what? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Facing east. - -Mr. BALL. You are facing east? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those -pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on -every one of those. - -Mr. BALL. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your -Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, -they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the -northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded -everything up and carried it over there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures -of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots -apiece. - -Mr. BALL. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was -located? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the -gun? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, I don't. - -Mr. BALL. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as -"Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the -gun--that was before anyone moved it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have another shot of that other picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, we took two from the same location when we was up -on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it -up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are -all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on -different exposures. - -Mr. BALL. You took some other pictures, didn't you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was that before any of them were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That picture right there is the one that shows them, -and the other pictures show them before they were moved. - -Mr. BALL. You mean Exhibit A and B? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. A and B. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a -shot of those boxes in the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. This one, Exhibit A, shows that--this is the -exact--now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the -indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved, -and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or -another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known -what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print--picked out a -better print. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the way they were piled up? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, just exactly like that. - -Mr. BALL. And you say there is an indentation on that box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. That shows in the picture. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it -look a little heavier? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. There was an indentation in the box, was there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them -all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers--that was carried -from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is -another box that was taken off of this stack--this stack right here. - -Mr. BALL. Is it shown in the picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It will show on another negative. - -Mr. BALL. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by -"another box taken from this stack here." - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box right under this. - -Mr. BALL. Right under what? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right under this box. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean -the little Rolling Readers? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. There are two boxes stacked up here--here's one, and -here's one. - -Mr. BALL. Were they both Rolling Readers? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these -books was underneath. - -Mr. BALL. It's marked "books"? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked -"Rolling Readers"? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; Second Rolling Readers. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they taken from? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they stacked in the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was -moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you take this picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted. - -Mr. BALL. That's after they were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints -right there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved -other than those you have showed me? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just these two. - -Mr. BALL. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A -and B? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have probably got one down there I can get you that -is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get -it for you. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before -they were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as -"Exhibit D," was that taken by you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they -were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust -on every box. - -Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw -them? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with -reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the -left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window -sill? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Where is your other picture--and I will show you? See -this box right here--this box? - -Mr. BALL. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, -you can read it right here--it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling -Readers." - -Mr. BALL. That says 10. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling -Reader--it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up -there, they go by this right here, this little print. Now, this box -was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it -is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top -box. - -Mr. BALL. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is Exhibit B. - -Mr. BALL. It was on the window ledge? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right -there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned -up on end. - -Mr. BALL. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a -description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is -stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in -this other print. You can't see it in this print. - -Mr. BALL. What other print? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your -exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your -negative. - -Mr. BALL. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in -Exhibit A. - -Mr. BALL. Wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to Exhibit -B, does it show a box on the window ledge? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box--the Second Rolling Readers. - -Mr. BALL. That picture was taken before the box was moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the -Rolling Readers box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And underneath that was another box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Another Rolling Reader box? - -Mr. BALL. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. A box marked "books". - -Mr. BALL. It was larger in size? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was larger in size. - -Mr. BALL. Than the Rolling Readers box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on -its end or on its side? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along -here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this -print--this is just a bad print. - -Mr. BALL. When you say "in this," what is it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. This is Exhibit--what is it? - -Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit A. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A--it was standing on end. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit A--can you tell me looking at Exhibit A -whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of -the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the -center, or over at the right. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking -towards Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. How close to the edge of the sill? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right at the edge. - -Mr. BALL. Right at the edge? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box -shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas -School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were -fired at President Kennedy. - -Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified -in Exhibit A is shown in that picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the top corner. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's this corner right here. - -Mr. BALL. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Have you got a ballpoint pen? - -(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by -Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the -right of the window as you stand looking out of the window. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It would be these boxes back over in here--it would be -the top of those boxes. - -Mr. BALL. How far were they away from the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I would have to look at the measurements--I have the -measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that -picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one. - -Mr. BALL. You are referring to Exhibit A? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A. - -Mr. BALL. And it is the row of boxes? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's -all it is. - -Mr. BALL. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was. - -Mr. BALL. Let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the -Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the -people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle -an "X" circle and mark it out here--mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" -circle. - -(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by -Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" -circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window -sill itself? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Sitting right on the sill. - -Mr. BALL. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" -circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the -window. - -Mr. BALL. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, on A and B. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there--in the southeast corner of the -building--folded. - -Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper--I don't know what it was. - -Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top -two were Rolling Readers? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east. - -Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner. - -Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that -said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures--one of the shots -after the duplicate shot. - -Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from -the FBI called me down--I can't think of his name, and he wanted an -approximate location of where the paper was found. - -Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water -pipes in the corner there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper -wrapping? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it--right here. - -Mr. BALL. Was it folded over? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long -and it was doubled over. - -Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know--I picked it up and dusted it and they -took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have -seen of it, and I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures. - -Mr. BALL. Was it near the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which way from the window? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was east of the window. - -Mr. BALL. Over in the corner? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the -building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where -it was. - -Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders. - -Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was. -There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of -tape on it to preserve it. - -Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print. - -Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small. - -Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with -some paper? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have--it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it -just strictly for fingerprinting. - -Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over -it--I'm sure I did. - -Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You lifted a print off of a box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and -it was, I believe, we have it that it was--I can read the measurements -off of one of these things--how far it was. - -Mr. BALL. Fine, do that. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was 16-1/2 inches from the--from this wall over here -(indicating). - -Mr. BALL. Which wall are you talking about? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was from the south wall of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was -moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The box from which you lifted the prints? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box never was moved. - -Mr. BALL. That box never was moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That box never was moved. - -Mr. BALL. And you took a picture of it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of -it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time--they were -with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and -help us in case they were needed. - -Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery--they were with me all the time -over in that one corner. - -Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location. - -Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was -found? - -(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. That would be directly south? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be directly south of where the box was. - -Mr. BALL. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast -corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is 16 inches from the south wall. - -Mr. BALL. You say you lifted a print there off of this box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And now, is that shown in the picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the -picture? Describe what you see there. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it -would be the northwest corner of the box. - -Mr. BALL. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. A palm. - -Mr. BALL. It was a palm print? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And does it show the direction of the palm? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Which way? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. West. - -Mr. BALL. It would be made with the hand---- - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. With the right hand sitting on the box. - -Mr. BALL. And the fingers pointed west, is that it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that is the outline shown in this picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show--did you attempt to -show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; could I? - -Mr. BALL. Did you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Did I do this? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the -direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm -print was made? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm -print? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; just the palm print. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of -the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. -B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you take a picture of it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see that one. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. All right--it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper -sack that was sitting there in the picture. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see that one. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.) - -There are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. That -was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a -shot--I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is -marked--it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the -third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. -That was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those -chicken bones and all that mess was in there too. - -Mr. BALL. Is the sack shown there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right -there. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And it shows--it has some chicken bones in it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. None outside the sack? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put -right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too. - -Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which -shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. And that's your No. 7. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That's the third row over? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows--it would -be--one, two, three. - -Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street--you mark it. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel -Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the -southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the -paper sack? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke -Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one -of the boxes; did you see anything like that? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in -one of these pictures, if it is. - -Mr. BALL. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by -numbers, did you not? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge -to the sidewalk, didn't you? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many feet? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Let me see--61 feet from the window ledge to the -sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that -no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call -him, if you want to. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I already have taken some of them. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of -them--it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more -would make any difference. This is out of a master set--all of these -pictures you have here. - -Mr. BALL. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the -position they were in. - -Mr. BALL. It is? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes--not--this was after they were moved, but I put -them back in the same exact position. - -Mr. BALL. Were they that close--that was about the position? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, -which will be "Exhibit J." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put -them back in the same position? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And took a picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit J, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here. -Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. You want 1 marked on this box? - -(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the -box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. And outline the indentation with a circle. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that -which is shown in the circle on 3? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. That's the only one? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured -he might have stacked them up. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I -told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned -around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I -dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and -started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of -that box. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that -box in your crime lab? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning -and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our -evidence and I haven't seen it since. - -Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's -print. - -Mr. BALL. He did? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print. - -Mr. BALL. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard -before you moved it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it -and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner -of this box down there. - -Mr. BALL. They just took the top part of the box down there? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it -back--that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I -don't know what was going on. - -Mr. BALL. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit -J---- - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. This picture has the palm print on it. - -Mr. BALL. It has the palm print--it had been removed and had been -identified and brought back and put in the box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It had been brought back and put in the box and as -being Oswald's right palm print. - -Mr. BALL. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found. - -Mr. BALL. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes -back where you first saw them? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then you took a picture? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Before the boxes were moved? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And before the palm print was identified? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken -bones in it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was -found? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, no prints. - -Mr. BALL. Or the two-wheeler truck? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. No prints? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. - -Mr. BALL. You dusted around there for them? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. I dusted everything around that area. There was just -smears and smudges on the bottom. - -Mr. BALL. Did you dust the rifle? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I -didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and -they worked on it down there at the lab. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have the measurements of the boxes? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have all the measurements. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Down at the city hall. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take Exhibit J--how did the height of the little -Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the -box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than -the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture. - -Mr. BALL. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want -to mark it "4"--the box in the window? - -Mr. BALL. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches -lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other -subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him. - -Mr. STERN. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think -it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes -were placed that way? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. A good gun rest. - -Mr. STERN. In that arrangement? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, it was a good gun rest. - -Mr. STERN. With the box in front lower than the box behind? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. In other words, it's like this--you see--it would be -down on a level like this--it shows where the butt of the gun was up -behind him here. He was down like this--nobody could see him from the -street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because -everybody would be looking right at him. - -Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper that you saw--you saw the -wrapper--tell me about how big that paper bag was--how long was it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3-1/2 to 4 feet long. - -Mr. BALL. The paper bag? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 8 inches. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it -will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read -it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your -signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission. - -Which do you prefer? - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Whichever is the easiest for you. - -Mr. BALL. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, -but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I will read it and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right. She will notify you. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Okay. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. - -Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF C. N. DHORITY - -The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present. - - -Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before -the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. DHORITY. C. N. Dhority. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. DHORITY. Detective with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to -the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you -not? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to come up here and give your -testimony? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to -your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you -not? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with -the Department? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and -lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the -rest of the time. - -I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946. - -Mr. BALL. What department do you work with? - -Mr. DHORITY. I work for Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Homicide? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Homicide Department? - -Mr. DHORITY. Since 1955. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work? - -Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the time you usually went to work? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, I was off that day. - -Mr. BALL. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day? - -Mr. DHORITY. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work. - -Mr. BALL. And you went to work at the main office of the Police -Department? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You arrived at about 2 p.m.? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you usually work with another detective? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. H. H. Blessing. - -Mr. BALL. Was he on duty that day with you? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been -in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether -he was there that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you -came to work? - -Mr. DHORITY. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a -patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau. - -Mr. BALL. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to -work? - -Mr. DHORITY. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all -ringing. - -Mr. BALL. And did you later see Lee Oswald? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About what time was the first time you saw him? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall exactly what time it was--he was in Captain -Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit -in a group where Oswald was questioned? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect -to the investigation of the President's assassination? - -Mr. DHORITY. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got -Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought -him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him. - -Mr. BALL. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during -the showup? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time? - -Mr. DHORITY. About 6:30. I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. You two men were with him? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't -there; some other witnesses? - -Mr. DHORITY. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup -room. - -Mr. BALL. At the showup room? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of them? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time? - -Mr. DHORITY. Whaley, that's a cabdriver? - -Mr. BALL. The cabdriver. - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe that was that night--I was thinking that -was the next day. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company -down there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk -to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall the names. - -Mr. BALL. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters, -were you not? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle--a detective? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--he could have been--there was quite a few -officers there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what occurred at the showup? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the -four-man lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I wasn't holding the showup. I was just -with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did -that. - -Mr. BALL. What did McWatters say to you? - -Mr. DHORITY. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and -said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he -believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he -identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective -Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the -transfer as his transfer. - -Mr. BALL. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Right after he had made an identification? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of Oswald? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by -McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please? - -Mr. DHORITY. [Examined instrument referred to.] - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit -from Mr. McWatters? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on -the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and -picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man -was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was -not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This -man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight." - -Now, you read that, didn't you? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man -that he had seen before doing what--did he tell you? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he -picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man. - -I don't know whether you've talked to him or not. - -Mr. BALL. Yes, I have. - -Mr. DHORITY. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you -talk to him--he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, -"Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else. - -Mr. BALL. Well, what I want to know is this--he identified Oswald, but -did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had -done? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought -he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some -man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't know exactly for word to word--it's in the -affidavit there. - -Mr. BALL. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is -that right? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were -walking back across the street to the bus, he said, "Well, I think he -went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner." - -Mr. BALL. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says: - -"The State of Texas, County of Dallas - -"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, -State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters, -2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit -Company. - -"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today, -November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No. -1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston. -I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew -the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her -if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me -the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never -did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I -don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man -I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my -bus with my punch mark." - -Is that about what McWatters told you? - -Mr. DHORITY. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit -from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with -him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on -Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No. -004459? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what did he tell you about that? - -Mr. DHORITY. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and -showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the -transfer. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver -to somebody? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of the night or day was that? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I -took them up to the crime lab. - -Mr. BALL. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All of them or one of them? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; he told me to bring him one back. - -Mr. BALL. You brought one back in an envelope? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right? - -Mr. DHORITY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's -hands and his face? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who made them? - -Mr. DHORITY. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well -as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did you attend another showup? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When was that? - -Mr. DHORITY. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the -McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there. - -Mr. BALL. That was the same day? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there. - -Mr. BALL. What was her first name? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were two of them--I don't recall for sure--as -well as I remember--it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis. - -Mr. BALL. There were two girls--Virginia and Jeanette? - -Mr. DHORITY. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from -Virginia, as well as I recall it. - -Mr. BALL. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff -region someplace, didn't you? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Who sent you out there? - -Mr. DHORITY. Lieutenant Wells. - -Mr. BALL. Who went with you? - -Mr. DHORITY. C. W. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. And what address did you go to? - -Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you see there? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there, -but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette -Davis. - -Mr. BALL. And, did you talk to them? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did they give you anything? - -Mr. DHORITY. Virginia gave me a .38 hull. - -Mr. BALL. Did she tell you where she got it? - -Mr. DHORITY. I believe that she said that she found it in her front -yard, as well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. DHORITY. We carried them down to the police department and took -affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup. - -Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup. - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. With them? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time of the night? - -Mr. DHORITY. The lineup--I imagine was about 7:30. - -Mr. BALL. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup? - -Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was in the lineup? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't have that? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't hold the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in -your report? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't have a report showing any numbers. - -Mr. BALL. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a -showup at 7:55 p.m. - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you -say to these people? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the -showup, and they both were---- - -Mr. BALL. I know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and -there was other people there at the same time looking at them. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup? - -Mr. DHORITY. I think they did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody -before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them -before you brought them down? - -Mr. DHORITY. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them -and to take them down to a showup. - -Mr. BALL. Down to a showup? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them? - -Mr. DHORITY. Did I say anything to them? - -Mr. BALL. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall saying anything to them at all. - -Mr. BALL. What did they tell you? - -Mr. DHORITY. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well -as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. "Looked like the man"--looked like the man what? - -Mr. DHORITY. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I -remember. It's in the affidavit. - -Mr. BALL. Who took the affidavit? - -Mr. DHORITY. I took the one from Virginia, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. And who took the one from Jeanette? - -Mr. DHORITY. I believe Brown took that one. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to -you, that Virginia gave you? - -Mr. DHORITY. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found -an empty shell--did she tell you she found an empty shell--Jeanette -Davis? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--it seems like she told me she had found -one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Gave it to the police that day? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is -that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day? - -Mr. DHORITY. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked -as Exhibits Nos.--Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A," -and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's -deposition. - -(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits -Nos. A and B," for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told -us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts. - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anything more you did that day? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of -telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall--there was -so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup, -didn't you? - -Mr. DHORITY. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present? - -Mr. DHORITY. I was present--what it was--they wanted me to take the -cabdriver's--me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the -station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was -a showup--the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in -there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also -there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Whaley? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling] -S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also? - -Mr. DHORITY. I believe there was--there was two cabdrivers there and -I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us -they identified him. - -Mr. BALL. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald -was in Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That would be Sunday, November 24. - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November. - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, on--I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves -and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service? - -Mr. DHORITY. And Mr. Holmes. - -Mr. BALL. And Holmes is what? - -Mr. DHORITY. Of the Post Office Department. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office? - -Mr. DHORITY. About 9:30 in the morning. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there? - -Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain -Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there -in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in. - -Mr. BALL. What was said there in Fritz' office that day--do you -remember any of the conversations? - -Mr. DHORITY. There was a lot of conversation. - -Mr. BALL. What did they talk about--the people in there? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to -him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him--I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to -him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I -remember. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? - -Mr. DHORITY. I couldn't remember all that was said. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Was your deposition taken before? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. By Mr. Hubert? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't know--it was some FBI man, as well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think -it was kind of cool--one of his sweaters. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I -left the office. - -Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz' -office that morning? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I didn't have my handcuffs on him. - -Mr. BALL. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him--did -he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Fritz gave you instructions to do what? - -Mr. DHORITY. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and -get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in. - -Mr. BALL. Is that what you did? - -Mr. DHORITY. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and -was in the process of backing it up there--in fact--I was just about -ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and -Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door. - -Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned -around to see--backing it up--still had the car moving it along and I -saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I -thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand -come out and I heard the shot. - -Mr. BALL. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes; beside Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle? - -Mr. DHORITY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Any questions? - -Mr. ELY. Yes, I have one or two. - -I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were -present at three of them and I have taken one by one--the first one was -at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald. -Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really. - -Mr. ELY. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance -compared with Oswald? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't study it. - -Mr. ELY. And you don't remember what they were wearing either? - -Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at -that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at -the other three, as far as you can remember? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall. - -Mr. ELY. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice, -in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people -present could hear who he was choosing? - -Mr. DHORITY. No; he did not--it was very low. - -Mr. ELY. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they -couldn't hear? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ELY. What about the other two people, did they indicate their -choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly? - -Mr. DHORITY. It was also quietly. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two -were saying? - -Mr. DHORITY. No. - -Mr. ELY. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification, -did you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other -men in that lineup? - -Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated -their choices to you? - -Mr. DHORITY. Just standing there by them--very quietly told me. - -Mr. ELY. In more or less the same procedure as the other one? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual. - -Mr. ELY. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley--I realize you -didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not -remember anything about that? - -Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all--I sure -don't. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about -something? - -Mr. DHORITY. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and -made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all -handcuffed--it was something like that--I can't recall for sure, but as -far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like -that. - -Mr. ELY. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain -Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could -you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on -Friday evening? - -Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't have any idea. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know about how long you were there? - -Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. - -Mr. ELY. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests? - -Mr. DHORITY. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening? - -Mr. DHORITY. No. - -Mr. ELY. None at all? - -Mr. DHORITY. No. - -Mr. ELY. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m. -on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home? - -Mr. DHORITY. That sounds about right. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on -Friday night? - -Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. - -Mr. ELY. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there? - -Mr. DHORITY. No. - -Mr. ELY. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning -when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time--did he -seem calm or excited? - -Mr. DHORITY. Very calm. - -Mr. ELY. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the -same? - -Mr. DHORITY. He was very calm and fresh. - -Mr. ELY. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the -conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean, -special with regard to newspapermen being present--were the corridors -filled with newspapermen--do you recall how much of a crowd was there? - -Mr. DHORITY. When? - -Mr. ELY. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening. - -Mr. DHORITY. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had -to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There -wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, -cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way -through. - -Mr. ELY. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up. - -Mr. DHORITY. The only other thing that I had to do with that that -we didn't go into--now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the -hospital. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very, -very weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the -only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction -then---- - -Mr. BALL. He was unconscious, was he? - -Mr. DHORITY. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the -operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain -Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the -hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of -the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that -he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone -and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at -Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose -to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to -you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it -if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and -in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the -Commission. - -Mr. DHORITY. Well, I will just waive my signature. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Fine. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS - -The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John -Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SIMS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation? - -Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department? - -Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, -1948. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and educated and what you have done before you went with the -police department? - -Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to -school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called -Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and -joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I -came to work down here when I was 23. - -Mr. BALL. With the police department? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long? - -Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but -because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early -because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart -when the President arrived. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart? - -Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. In the morning? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.--Captain Fritz and Boyd and I. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot? - -Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called -Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an -accident. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day? - -Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland -Hospital, so we did. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove. - -Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry -was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the -Depository Store, down to the Book Store. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back -to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I -couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone -in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation -from where the shot had been fired. - -Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill -Decker rode back with us. - -Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the -building. - -Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store. - -Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You heard something about it? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that. - -Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you -to go there? - -Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and -proceeded to the building, went in the building. - -Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in? - -Mr. SIMS. The front door. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I. - -Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following -was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came -from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and -Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." - -Do you think you heard that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the -shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't -have went directly to the Book Store like we did. - -Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the -information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor -of that building." - -"Which building?" - -"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston." - -Do you know whether you could have heard that? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir. -We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our -radio on. - -Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator? - -Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator. - -Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the -third floor and then the freight elevator takes over. - -Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the -building? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator. - -Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight -elevator? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers -there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, -actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go first? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant -Revill was there, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers. - -Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with -us. - -Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau. - -Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover -work. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor -and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room -and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers -on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if -we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh -floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't -been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone -hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went -back to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the -hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls -had been found. - -Mr. BALL. And you could hear them? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I -remember. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator? - -Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I -don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the -sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor? - -Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner? - -Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it -would be the southeast corner. - -Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see? - -Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or -four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the -wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got -there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I -have his name here someplace. - -Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff. - -Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I -don't know who all. - -Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls -or not? - -Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was -Detective Studebaker that works for him. - -Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker. - -Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not. - -Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken. - -Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same -position as when you had first seen them? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth -floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had -found the rifle over by the stairway. - -Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building? - -Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the -building. - -Mr. BALL. And what happened then? - -Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle? - -Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by -some paper. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that -location? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Who took that picture? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day. - -Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city -hall. - -Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of -significance there besides these hulls and the rifle? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? - -Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls. - -Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much -attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of -where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's -where it was. - -Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the -east? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know -there was some loose paper there. - -Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed -Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were -found. - -Mr. BALL. To stay there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by -the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the -wrapper to the hulls. - -Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between -the boxes and the window. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a -couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the -window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window -about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the -window--what position they were on the window ledge? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding -area there. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I -think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a -minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we -went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson -and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there, -I believe. - -Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the -rifle was found? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were -located on the floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time. - -Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up. - -Mr. BALL. There were three hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in? - -Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope. - -Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or -not. - -Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up? - -Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there -and he held the envelope open. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, -I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there -for fingerprints. - -Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition -out of the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have -to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently -about 2 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. You and who? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent -word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff -and then we went to the city hall. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out -in the corridor there. - -Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas -School Depository Building? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street. - -Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are -located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's -see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks. - -Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is. - -Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that -time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I. - -Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's? - -Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I. - -Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full -of people and I think---- - -Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people? - -Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people. - -Mr. BALL. What people? - -Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there, -all I know is that there was a lot of people. - -Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that -time? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't -remember. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a -lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was -up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," -and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that -had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room. - -Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker? - -Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has -been in the office there for several years. - -Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the -Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer -Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd -and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. You and Boyd? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation -room. - -Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. -Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and -Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory -as to what was said in that interrogation? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions. - -Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there -at that time. - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his -name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked. - -Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not -complete, just tell us as much as you can remember? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name -and where he worked and things of that nature. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. SIMS. He said, "No." - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure -what questions he did ask him. - -Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on -that evening. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were -there then? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself -then. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not. - -Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and -didn't he ask to be more comfortable? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be -more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or -something of that sort? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he -could put his hands in front of him. - -Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he -wasn't handcuffed? - -Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that -commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22. - -Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed -in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI -took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we -took him down to the first showup at 4:05. - -Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from -about 2:20 until 4 o'clock? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the -interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept. - -Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in -Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until -showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time -or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right -next door. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's -just a hall separating them. - -Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You and Boyd? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, -did you ask him any questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him -about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him -being in the service and things of that nature. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at -4:05? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in -Russia? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office -and and before the first showup? - -Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room? - -Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and -I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of -the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in -Russia and some things over here and about his family and things. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the -President, what do you mean? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it. - -Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, -what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk -about it. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He did? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any -knowledge of Officer Tippit's death? - -Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any -knowledge of the shooting of the President at all? - -Mr. SIMS. None at all. - -Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did -you say? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me. - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in. - -Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say -he lived in Moscow, I believe it was. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything -over there except the weather. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion -about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him -about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't -talk about her much. - -Mr. BALL. Or his children? - -Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a -brother or not. - -Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room -at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that -first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room -and also went to Irving, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that -afternoon, around 3:30. - -Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out -he had a room at 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, -Tex.? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time? - -Mr. SIMS. At 4:05. - -Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police -officers. - -Mr. BALL. What two police officers? - -Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry. - -Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him -down? - -Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Third floor. - -Mr. BALL. On the third floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you take him? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you -go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the -elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement -of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover -room next to the stage, the showup stage. - -Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And would you describe it? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the -officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the -squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2 -or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a -cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom. - -Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the---- - -Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have. - -Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of seats? - -Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something -like this here. - -Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark. - -Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did. - -Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the -showup so we went with them. - -Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald -and this jailer. - -Mr. BALL. How were they dressed? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know -how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know. - -Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were their names? - -Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will. - -Mr. SIMS. All right. - -Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the -Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 -was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don -Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk. - -Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him. - -Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there. - -Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these -fellows look like? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and -about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue -eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has -blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion. - -Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is -26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, -I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the -audience? - -Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience -part of the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few -questions. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the -first showup? - -Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in -our office conducted the first showup. - -Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask? - -Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age -and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just -a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words. - -Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions? - -Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup. - -Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and -what he said? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted -natural. - -Mr. BALL. Answered the questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he protest any? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a -T-shirt on? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the -next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something -about a T-shirt or something. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in. - -Mr. BALL. He answered the questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the -showup? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the -witnesses out there? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this -showup? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there. - -Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20. - -Mr. BALL. At 4:20? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald -some more. - -Mr. BALL. What were their names? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald -took place? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, -so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain -Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the -time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office -beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were -handcuffed or not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the -interrogation. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all? - -Mr. SIMS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you -heard there? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he -told Captain Fritz or the agents either. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when -Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or -whoever was in the office with him would talk to him. - -Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in -Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him -questions at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know those men? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their -names--I don't remember who it was. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup? - -Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city -hall. - -Mr. BALL. And you took him where? - -Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup? - -Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the -first one. - -Mr. BALL. Mention their names again. - -Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, -and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police -department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk. - -Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or -things like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he? - -Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he -had a white T-shirt on underneath that. - -Mr. BALL. Underneath that? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that. - -Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the -officers were, as far as their clothes. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they -have coats on--did anyone have a coat on? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't -have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I -don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I -conducted the second showup. - -Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one, -two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there -and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where -they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience -side of the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers -assigned to these people? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned -to the second showup. - -Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, -R. L. Clark, and Don Ables. - -Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four. - -Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup. - -Mr. BALL. The same numbers? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The same men? - -Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers. - -Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at -6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint -was signed by Fritz that evening? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did this take place? - -Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. And who was present? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and -Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else -was there--I don't know who else was present. - -Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave -Johnston? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder -complaint? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked -to him and Captain Fritz talked to him. - -Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed -against him? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. For what murder? - -Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that? - -Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to -your records? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. -Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were. - -Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup? - -Mr. SIMS. At 7:40. - -Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] -B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. - -Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number. - -Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1? - -Mr. SIMS. No. 1---- - -Mr. BALL. And who else? - -Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Who was three? - -Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel. - -Mr. BALL. Who was he? - -Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know his address? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary. - -Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive. - -Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4? - -Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables. - -Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed. - -Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not. - -Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Together? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who -was out in front. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side? - -Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and -ask the questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how -differently he was dressed. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have on? - -Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far -as I know. - -Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described -before? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on. - -Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on? - -Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that -were in the audience side? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out -there--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the -witnesses at either of the three showups? - -Mr. SIMS. Never did---- - -Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. About what time was this? - -Mr. SIMS. 7:55. - -Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald -for about another half hour. - -Mr. BALL. And were you present? - -Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you? - -Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I -don't know if he was in there all the time or not. - -Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this -period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, -didn't you? - -Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that was what time? - -Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record -here and see [checking his record referred to]. - -Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one. - -Mr. BALL. After the first showup? - -Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup. - -Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him? - -Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room. - -Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in -the room outside, the showup room, you searched him? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I. - -Mr. BALL. What did you find? - -Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket. - -Mr. BALL. And what else? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of -.38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket. - -Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket. - -Mr. BALL. Left front? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer? - -Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket. - -Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it. - -Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to). - -Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' -examination. - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it -on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket -he had that in. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer? - -Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and -placed it in an envelope for identification. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain -Fritz' desk. - -Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who? - -Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart. - -Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did -you do with those? - -Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope. - -Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't -think I talked with him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date? - -Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his -punch-card. - -Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the -transfer? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on -the transfer? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but -I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks -about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, -identify his transfer. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the -busdriver? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his -hands. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet? - -Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember? - -Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it. - -Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material? - -Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. -identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the -top. - -Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. -Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened -after the interrogation by Mr. Clements? - -Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the -crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. What did they do? - -Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also. - -Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't -know for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came -in, he's in charge of the crime lab. - -Mr. BALL. And what did he do? - -Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name? - -Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of what? - -Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes -made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face." - -Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"? - -Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think. - -Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant. - -Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face? - -Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face. - -Mr. BALL. Of whose face? - -Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made? - -Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was. - -Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made? - -Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted -a good long while--I don't know how long. - -Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55. - -Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I -guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do -that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations -then for the paraffin tests. - -Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later -than 10 o'clock that day? - -Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office -there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his -face. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets -on Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then? - -Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he -was there in the office? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not. - -Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' -office? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly -afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, -came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front -of the stage at the showup room. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you do that? - -Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to. - -Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that? - -Mr. SIMS. Is it usual? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual. - -Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do it for? - -Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. For the press? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they -call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room -is--the assembly room. - -Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he? - -Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage. - -Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what happened? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen. - -Mr. BALL. And what did they do? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with -him. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he answer? - -Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And this was about what time? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 -minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have -been about, I guess, about 12:15. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him -down there--what were his exact instructions? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me. - -Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there? - -Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police -assembly room. - -Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz? - -Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was. - -Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' -office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the -showup room? - -Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * -shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' -office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the -showup room." - -Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us. - -Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did. - -Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you? - -Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us -instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to -do so, for us to take him to jail immediately." - -Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, -wasn't it? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell them? - -Mr. SIMS. He told them "no." - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of -them hollering at him--that's all I remember. - -Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what? - -Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him. - -Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on -November the 23d. - -Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there. - -Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee -Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for -questioning. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the -U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service. - -Mr. BALL. And who else? - -Mr. SIMS. And that was all. - -Mr. BALL. And yourself? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the -office during the interrogation." - -Mr. BALL. You weren't in there? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what. - -Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take? - -Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and -Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's -room at 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there? - -Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not. - -Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that. - -Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see? - -Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something -of that nature. I don't remember what it was. - -Mr. BALL. A paper clip? - -Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or -something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I -know, the room was clean. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and -left at 12:30. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SIMS. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald -case? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements? - -Mr. SIMS. No. - -Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. Who are "we"? - -Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. From the jail. - -Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at -7:15 to the jail. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that -interrogation? - -Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day. - -Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right? - -Mr. SIMS. Over the television. - -Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might -go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any? - -Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with -reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I -believe we ought to do that. - -You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, -Mr. Sims? - -Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing -of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th. - -Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days? - -Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of -you? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You worked it out together? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears -as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this -memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the -things occurred? - -Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory. - -Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory? - -Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory. - -Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was -prepared? - -Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine. - -Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine. - -Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific -figure--is this because you had some record of these times? - -Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen. - -Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum? - -Mr. SIMS. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the -two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your -statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is -that right? - -Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions? - -Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions. - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be -over here. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them. - -Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of -their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel -file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city -prisoners? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those. - -Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, -5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. - -Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", -169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this -was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description. - -Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. - -Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the -two? - -Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our -identification jacket--these are their descriptions. - -Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their -description? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the -School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred -just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for -fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain -Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain -Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, -Tex." - -Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up -and in what context the name was given? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at -the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he -gave it to him? - -Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was -missing. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their -jobs after the assassination. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing? - -Mr. SIMS. No; I don't. - -Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? -Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository? - -Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes. - -Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 -on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either -you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, -and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to -your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you? - -Mr. SIMS. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall that? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at -that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else. - -Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him. - -Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time -of his arrest? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on. - -Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the -ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol -shells--cartridges--did you comment on that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all. - -Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember -what I asked or what he said. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday -and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his -demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was -conducting himself? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I -have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous. - -Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what -questions he didn't? - -Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the -questions. - -Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the -course of the day? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked -him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things -of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them. - -Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment? - -Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it -was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a -lawyer, and things of that nature. - -Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment? - -Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, -and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he -said he deserved being hit in the eye. - -Mr. STERN. Why was that? - -Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's -what he told us. - -Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that? - -Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up -in New York. - -Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to -me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me. - -Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at -any time he mentioned getting a lawyer? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the -interrogations? Or showups? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 -that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about -him? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick. - -Mr. STERN. Calm? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and -other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the -interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday. - -Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was -crowded. - -Mr. STERN. With officials? - -Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and -city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials. - -Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in -Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of -the interrogations. - -Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked -all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the -course of the same interrogation? - -Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there -wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to -him and more or less ask him questions. - -Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the -corridor, as to people who were not officials? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded. - -Mr. STERN. Because of the---- - -Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen. - -Mr. STERN. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when -they were installed? - -Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed. - -Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of -this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when -you brought him to and from? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when -we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, -and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain -Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall. - -Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would -people try to ask him questions? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would. - -Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall--ever? - -Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't. - -Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him -in any way, or did he also take this calmly? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different. - -Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being -the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete -self-control? - -Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he -still was calm and alert and everything. - -Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night -when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty -snappy. He made some quick answers--I don't know what all it -involved--he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I -believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit. - -Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in -control? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of -expressing his feelings? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that -time--at that press interview. - -Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you. - -That's all I have, Mr. Ball. - -I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two. - -Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You -took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday -morning. - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth -floor--about what time? - -Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20. - -Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the -fourth floor at 12:23. - -Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe--I'm not positive about this, but I believe -that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did. - -Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked -out of the jail again after 12:23? - -Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day. - -Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 -again--a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know -anything about that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out -later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at -12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on -the 23d. - -Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for -illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your -deposition? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine. - -Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department -of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and -Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th. - -Mr. BALL. That was the 24th? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can -read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you -can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as -you have here testified as she has taken it down. - -Do you have any preference on that? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot. - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED - -The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SIMS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony -in front of or before Joseph A. Ball? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case -hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of -the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you -remember that he asked about those? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just -how you came to see those hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the -seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the -hulls had been found. - -So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went -to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were -laying there by the window on the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab -to take pictures of the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can -remember? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive -about that. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were -taken? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time. - -Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the -pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I -believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day -dusted them for fingerprints. - -Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically -remember what you did with those hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your -recollection as to what happened to the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my -partner, and refreshed my memory. - -Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened? - -Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day -finished with them and to take possession of them. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. SIMS. I did that. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them? - -Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them? - -Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in -his office. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. -Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to -the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city -hall that afternoon? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or -not he had any record? - -Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I -was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few -minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on -Oswald? - -Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to -Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was there? - -Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am -not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain -Fritz' office? - -Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or -either gave it to him. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one? - -Mr. SIMS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did -with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that? - -Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to -where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we -was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be -sure and get the hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back -later to where the hulls were. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being -dusted for fingerprints? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them? - -Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can -remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to -preserve the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through -with the pictures? - -Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, -or Boyd tell you? - -Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too -sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz -and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the -rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did -that. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were -the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember? - -Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete -understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, -you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on -Monday? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember? - -Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the -hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I -talked to him. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say? - -Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and -bring them to the office." - -And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had -said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told -me this. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back -on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain -Fritz told you on this past Monday? - -Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or -Monday? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had -told you to get the hulls and bring them down? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on -April 6 or 7? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact -as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually -putting these shells in an envelope? - -Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently -remember putting that envelope in your pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your -pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I -remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or -pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was? - -Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the -desk here? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't -remember what size. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope? - -Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has -envelopes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope -in your pocket? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but -he was there when I took possession of the hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. He was? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab -officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the -envelope in which they were? - -Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical -possession? - -Mr. SIMS. In this envelope. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them -there on the desk in front of him. - -Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not. - -Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would -you have used? - -Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS. - -Mr. BELIN. RMS? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope -that I put them in. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the -hull? By that, do you understand what I mean? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the -hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull. - -Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the -hull? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end. - -Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end. - -Mr. BELIN. The spent end? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be -sure and get the hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the -door? - -Mr. SIMS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your -right hand and you started testifying, is that correct? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to -sign the other deposition? - -Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead. - -Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in? - -Mr. SIMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL - -The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. STOVALL. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. STOVALL. Richard S. Stovall. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your address, please? - -Mr. STOVALL. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. STOVALL. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. STOVALL. Approximately 10 years--it will be 10 years this May. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to -tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has -done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know -something about you. - -Can you tell me that, please? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a -frame house over here on West Page--329 West Page. I went to grade -school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner -Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school -at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I -went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I -quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came -back to summer school Tech and finished. - -After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs -I had been with for just a short period of time--I went to work at the -post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I -believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post -office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since -then. - -Mr. BALL. You are a detective, are you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You work in plain clothes? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in this particular department? - -Mr. STOVALL. I have been in this department since approximately August -15, 1962--about 18 months, I guess. - -Mr. BALL. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau? - -Mr. STOVALL. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. Do you work under Captain Fritz? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, -in view of the President's visit to Dallas? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work. - -Mr. BALL. At what time was that? - -Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that -morning and heard the deal on television. - -Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I -believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for -work and went on in. - -Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there. - -I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the -same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people -standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even -take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything. - -While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the -Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there -at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back -there and talked to him briefly. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his -identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee -Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the -time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. -Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it? - -Mr. STOVALL. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling] -H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure. - -And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that -was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the -door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address -in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving. - -That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an -address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time. - -Mr. BALL. The captain had you get another man to go with you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us. - -Mr. BALL. Is he a detective? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is. - -Mr. BALL. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The three of you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and -parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to -meet some county officers out there. - -Mr. BALL. Why were you to meet the county officers out there? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had -to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us. - -Mr. BALL. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you meet some county officers there? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we -did--after we got out there; yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you wait for them? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you wait for them? - -Mr. STOVALL. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house -address. - -Mr. BALL. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down -the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they -could see us parked in the car down the street. - -Mr. BALL. And what county officers did you meet out there? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two--one -name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name. - -Mr. BALL. How about Walthers--does Buddy Walthers sound like it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was the third one. - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then after you met them, what did you do? - -Mr. STOVALL. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house -and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and -two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other -officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could -see some people inside the house and we could see through the front -door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine -came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are -here about this mess that's on television." - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell her about that? - -Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the -house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but -if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be -necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house -and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I -searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There -are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you -have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom -there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified -that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division -of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search -the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you? - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time -I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which -would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking -to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina -suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they -were out of my sight then. - -Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look -in the garage? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that -suggestion--what her reasons for it were? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into -the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the -two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't -tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in -what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the -record.) - -Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record. - -Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this -blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other -end was open. - -Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material? - -Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. A white what? - -Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that -you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large -packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told -me---- - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? - -Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had -pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and -Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle. - -Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from -Marina's bedroom? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took -from the house. - -Mr. BALL. Give me that list first. - -Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.] - -Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got -back into the squad car? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to -work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car -and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there. - -Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went -over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, -we went over it--this list here. - -Mr. BALL. This list here? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken. - -Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 -West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.? - -Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4--somewhere in there. - -Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was -made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police -department? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it -consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition. - -(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for -identification.) - -Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l -[spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too. - -Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of -refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you -have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those? - -Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.] - -Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you -can make an explanation for the record. - -Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine. - -Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and -A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken -from Marina's room? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, -haven't you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. STOVALL. On this list here--where it has 1963 Kodachrome -transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown -pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, -came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the -other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but -I'm not sure which came from which place. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list -that have not been checked, were found? - -Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other -items--those other articles? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where -these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and -when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the -stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too. - -Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are -not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, -from your memory, just where you found those articles. - -Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth -Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single--I'm not sure where they -came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have -listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector. - -Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in -Marina's bedroom. - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them. - -Mr. BALL. All right, very well. - -Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know -it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got -listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth -pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 -inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." -Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this. - -These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone -projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, -"Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph -records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. - -I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm -not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One -bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out -of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm -not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I -explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One -envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which -bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book." - -We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall -taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the -particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's -the last one I don't have checked. - -Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's -bedroom? - -Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the -hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and -the kitchen and the den. - -Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day. - -Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the -stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there? - -Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours, if that -long. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to -you about expecting you, or something of that sort? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked -on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified -ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about -this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" -at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the -President's murder. - -Mr. BALL. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got -there. - -Mr. BALL. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought -into the office? - -Mr. STOVALL. They had brought him into the office after I was there. - -Mr. BALL. Later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes -when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he -said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought -he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or -television? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard -about it--I don't recall him saying that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions at that time? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time. -However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation -was. - -Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into -our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, -and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was -talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and -talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work -that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a -package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could -have been a rifle--is what she said. She said it was either in a brown -paper box or wrapped in brown paper. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe -it was 6 when we got back to the office. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's -deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two -children. - -Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery -Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them after that? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day--I didn't. We took them from there -into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office -up there. - -Mr. BALL. Into which bureau? - -Mr. STOVALL. Into the Forgery Bureau--we took them from the Homicide -Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we -could leave them. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do the rest of that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. After that we went--we called on the phone--Rose -did--trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's -brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald -had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally -located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where -Wesley Frazier was--he called the Irving Police Department and talked -to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was -and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he -couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15 -or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police -Department out there. - -Mr. BALL. You went out there and talked to him? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you also searched their home, didn't you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. - -Mr. BALL. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into -Dallas and took statements from them? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I -don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started -back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church -with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about -halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the -station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain -from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley -Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so -we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that -time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the -phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30. - -Mr. BALL. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier, -wasn't it? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think, -when he finished running it. - -Mr. BALL. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. STOVALL. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left -Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I -remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out -to Irving and left them. - -Mr. BALL. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the -polygraph examination of Frazier, were you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And during this examination, did you have before you the -affidavit which Frazier had made? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't at that time? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning? - -Mr. STOVALL. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator. - -I might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way -mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is -investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being -given, and you can hear the questions and the answers. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go home, then, after that? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home. - -Mr. BALL. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home, -didn't you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. - -Mr. BALL. About what time? - -Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. - -Mr. BALL. From what judge? - -Mr. STOVALL. From J. B. Brown, Jr. - -Mr. BALL. Who went out on the search party? - -Mr. STOVALL. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the -Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went -with us. - -Mr. BALL. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Homicide Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time? - -Mr. STOVALL. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one -there at the time. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a -further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the -time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and -that we could search the house anytime we wanted to. - -Mr. BALL. And did you search the house? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the -garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a -rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search -at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he -didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we -searched the garage and concentrated our search there. - -Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the -only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. -I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure--it's possible that -he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them -came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee -Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them -and they left. - -Mr. BALL. Do you mean they left you in the garage? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their -house. - -Mr. BALL. You have made a report of what you did that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report? - -Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't -read this one. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of -your search on the 23d of November 1963? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long? - -Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1-1/2 or 2 -hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough -search of the garage. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time? - -Mr. STOVALL. To the garage? - -Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to -make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we -didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the -whole house. - -Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your -department as to what to look for? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with -you on that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. - -Mr. BALL. Is this the list? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is. - -Mr. BALL. And where was that made? - -Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B." - -(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to -be Oswald in the photograph? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, -"Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots -and the negatives to me. - -Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the -photograph? - -Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house -holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on -his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots. - -Mr. BALL. And the negatives? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B? - -Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous -photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we -took when we were there. - -Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw? - -Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box -about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them? - -Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there -and letters and papers and photographs. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags. - -Mr. BALL. What color? - -Mr. STOVALL. One of them was--I think both of them were a kind of an -Army color--olive drab, whatever you call it. - -Mr. BALL. And suitcases? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a -brown one. - -Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material? - -Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material. - -Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, -is there any other color? - -Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember--one of the brown ones -was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind -of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It -was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart. - -Mr. BALL. And were there three? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one? - -Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also. - -Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard? - -Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or -cardboard. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's -Department Store, Klein's in Chicago? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs. - -Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have -marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of -November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search -of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D. - -(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C -and D," for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you -find there? - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? - -Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you -have already told us? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both -gone from the house when we left there. - -Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You took them down to where? - -Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office. - -Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the -investigation. I might add, there was--well, you have that on the -list--some property. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. STOVALL. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that -had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his -own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some -negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a -selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where -the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of -the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there -were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there -from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that -he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of -"A. Hidell" typed in on it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much -for coming over here. - -Mr. STOVALL. Okay, thank you. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by. - -Mr. STOVALL. I hope it was of some help to you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS - -The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April -3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. POTTS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. POTTS. Walter Eugene Potts. - -Mr. BALL. What business or occupation are you in? - -Mr. POTTS. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, -Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas? - -Mr. POTTS. Since October 21, 1947. - -Mr. BALL. And how long have you been with the homicide department? - -Mr. POTTS. June 6, 1956. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where -you were educated and what you have done since then? - -Mr. POTTS. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to -Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools -in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas--it's Crozier Tech now, but it -was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, -and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love -Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in -Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down -there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I -worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I -went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I -was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also -the 505th there. - -I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before -I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they -still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of -the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's -raised right here. - -Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that was my day off. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim -Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to -1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and -Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you -heard about the President getting shot?" - -You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I -turned on my car radio and there it was. - -We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to -Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all -the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him -I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there -within the hour, which was around 2 or before. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there? - -Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car -over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot -and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this -officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting -killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I -understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." -That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, -I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas -School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and -he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" -And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, -and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I -heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them -say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit." - -So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the -squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and -they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As -you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight -ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go -on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he -said, "I know that man." - -He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book -Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." -So did Arce--he said, "Yes, he works down there." - -So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people -and we got them notarized. - -Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty? - -Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back -there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other -people--I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around -there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, -and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and -he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are -going out to 1026 North Beckley." - -He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished -taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain -Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's -room." - -On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with -the name Alex Hidell and Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. -Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the -homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us -and we went out there. - -Mr. BALL. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant? - -Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time. -We went to the location and talked to the people there. - -Mr. BALL. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And who else? - -Mr. POTTS. B. L. Senkel. - -Mr. BALL. And yourself? - -Mr. POTTS. And myself. - -Mr. BALL. And you went out to where? - -Mr. POTTS. 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. What happened when you got there? - -Mr. POTTS. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.--I believe her name -was Johnson. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. A. C. Johnson? - -Mr. POTTS. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. Earlene Roberts? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex -Hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who -we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and -there was a television---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you check their registration books? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--Senkel, I -think, or Cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book -and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the -living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's -the living quarters--it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of -the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man -that lives here. That's Mr. Lee--O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is -right here right off of the living room." - -Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that -Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until -4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3. - -Mr. BALL. You waited there in the home? - -Mr. POTTS. We waited there in the living quarters. - -Mr. BALL. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by -Lee? - -Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got -the warrant. - -Mr. BALL. Who brought the warrant out? - -Mr. POTTS. Judge David Johnston. - -Mr. BALL. The judge issued it, but who brought it out? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge -David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill -Alexander. - -Mr. BALL. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, the judge was there in person. - -Mr. BALL. He was? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill -Alexander--they all came in the same car. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it -was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, -and we took everything in there that we could find. - -Mr. BALL. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the -living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off -to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I -don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a -real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there -it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff -back there in. - -Mr. BALL. How was it furnished? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if -remember, it might have had a chair--I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, -Cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything -in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and -we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and -stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could -find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put -stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a -lot of stuff in it. - -Mr. BALL. What color was the bag? - -Mr. POTTS. I don't recall the color of that bag. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought -it in, too? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could -find. - -Mr. BALL. Were there curtains on the windows? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; I think so. - -Mr. BALL. Hanging on rods? - -Mr. POTTS. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the -walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked -behind the blinds and everything. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster? - -Mr. POTTS. A .38 leather holster--I have a list there of all the stuff -we brought out of there. - -Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. -Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office. - -Mr. BALL. You brought the stuff into the office? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A." - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," -for identification.) - -Mr. POTTS. You can have that if you would like. - -Mr. BALL. This will be two exhibits--A-1 and A-2. - -(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits -A-l and A-2," for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the -holster before? - -Mr. POTTS. I don't recall asking her that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the -holster before? - -Mr. POTTS. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too -familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much -about it. - -Mr. BALL. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil. - -Mr. BALL. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. POTTS. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it -and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing--and it had a diagram -of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to -me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in -Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand. - -Mr. BALL. You brought all of this property to the city hall? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as -"Exhibits A-1 and A-2"? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more? - -Mr. POTTS. Let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of -that night, up until--I don't recall what time I did leave there--it -was pretty late. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission -Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley -address that day, do you remember? - -Mr. POTTS. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of -the officers picked it up. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember where it was? - -Mr. POTTS. No; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Do--you don't know where it was kept? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But was it brought from the room? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and -here is Mr. Moore's. - -Mr. BALL. What does that initial mean? - -Mr. POTTS. That's my initial, "W. E. P." - -Mr. BALL. And there is "11-22-63"--what does that mean? - -Mr. POTTS. That means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of -there. At the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought -out in court that would be my initials right there--I recovered this. - -Mr. BALL. Did you initial it right there in the room? - -Mr. POTTS. We initialed it after we brought it to the station. - -Mr. BALL. These are the initials of the men who were there with you? - -Mr. POTTS. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner--"F. M. -T."--that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in -court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the -investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the -President? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning -and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone -conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. We were -swamped--I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru--all over was -just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept -most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald? - -Mr. POTTS. I believe I did--was that the 23d--at 2:15 that afternoon on -the 23d, I was in on one. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. POTTS. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail -elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking -there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought -that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Who is M. G. Hall? - -Mr. POTTS. He is a detective in our bureau. - -Mr. BALL. And who is Charlie Brown? - -Mr. POTTS. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. -Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the -two that showed up then, but they might not have been. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the -men who were to be in the showup? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and -walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage -while the showup was conducted. - -Mr. BALL. How was it conducted? Describe it. - -Mr. POTTS. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup -stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black -nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the -person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They -brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went -in first--no, that's wrong--Lujan went on first, because he would be -No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up -there. - -Mr. BALL. What is his full name? - -Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2. - -Mr. BALL. What is Knapp's full name? - -Mr. POTTS. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1. - -Mr. BALL. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, Detective Leavelle--now, I don't know who the witness -was that they were showing them to--the showup to. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Leavelle? - -Mr. POTTS. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a -black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one -step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall -exactly what he asked them--It was just to get them to talk and -identify themselves. We conduct them different--sometimes we ask them -their names and their address and their occupation. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask the questions? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask the questions? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; he was up there. - -Mr. BALL. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; to the men on the stage. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear them? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; I heard them answer. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald speak up or not? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on -a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was -complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and -I've got a T-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup. -He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of -commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of commotion was he making? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in -a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a -T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and -after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the -stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the -elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with -the show. - -Mr. BALL. That's all you had to do with it? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What were the appearances of the four men who came out? - -Mr. POTTS. They were similar in size--I didn't pick them--I don't know -who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the -ages are a little different here. - -Mr. BALL. What ages were they, do you know? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, Horne was 17--he was born November 6, 1945, I believe -that's right. - -Mr. BALL. John Thurman Horne? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born -October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born -February 15, 1937. - -Mr. BALL. And do you have the addresses of these three men? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; I do--now, I got the addresses off of--out of our -records bureau--off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they -gave a fictitious address or not. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. POTTS. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor. - -Mr. BALL. 2942 Ann Arbor? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And that's Dallas? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. And what was he charged with--why was he in jail? - -Mr. POTTS. Traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets. - -Mr. BALL. Traffic tickets? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date. - -Mr. BALL. He did? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes--red lights and so on. - -Mr. BALL. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for? - -Mr. POTTS. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 -Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. And he was in for investigation? - -Mr. POTTS. Investigation of burglary and theft. - -Mr. BALL. Was he convicted? - -Mr. POTTS. Well, I don't know anything about that. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know where he is now? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I have never seen those men since. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he was convicted or not? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. What about Lujan? - -Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan--[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way -you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address -of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation -of violation of State narcotic laws. - -Mr. BALL. And was he convicted, or do you know? - -Mr. POTTS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted -of a felony? - -Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. You know nothing about that? - -Mr. POTTS. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first -time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation? - -Mr. POTTS. That Presidential assassination--I think that's about all I -done on that. - -Mr. BALL. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer--on the 25th of -November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; I know that. - -Mr. POTTS. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, -"They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've -seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We -need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car -and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a -woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "Oswald has -just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went -back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came -on back on duty that day. - -Mr. BALL. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer---- - -Mr. POTTS. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. -He and Mr. Senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they -were in the lead car. - -Mr. BALL. Senkel was? - -Mr. POTTS. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in -the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about -this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, -he said, "Let's go out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is -supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by -and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took -a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify -him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on -the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo -Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he -works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that -day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch -the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't -say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it -looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before -he heard the shots fired. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are -testifying about? - -Mr. POTTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own -handwritten notes? - -Mr. POTTS. That's right--I have. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's -duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, -being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 -of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in -the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15--as the next exhibit. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and -C," respectively, for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much. - -Mr. POTTS. You are certainly welcome. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and -sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the -Commission. You can tell me what you want to do. - -Mr. POTTS. Oh, I will sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you -to sign. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK - -The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. John P. Adamcik. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. In Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I am 26. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Dallas? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to high school? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. LaGrange, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. LaGrange High School? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and -came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I was an assembler. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a -hardship discharge. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean family? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was -injured. That was the reason I got the discharge. - -And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I -think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got -on the police department. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have been in the police department ever since? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of -absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army -Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 -months. - -Mr. BELIN. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you married? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. One-month-old baby. - -Mr. BELIN. A month old baby. Boy or girl? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Boy. - -Mr. BELIN. You must be pretty proud? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is his name? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Mark Allen. - -Mr. BELIN. Your wife taking good care of that baby? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were -you on duty on that date? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this. - -Mr. BELIN. Not at the time of the assassination? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. You were off duty? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I was at home, off duty. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get on duty that day? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard -of the assassination--I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, -and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I -immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so. - -Mr. BELIN. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I -wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting -officers and we were asked--Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were -asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in -Irving, to the Paine residence. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald give them that address? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the -address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the address? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how -that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to -this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite -name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he -had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we -were told. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was this? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report? - -Mr. BELIN. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be -approximately 2:30. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out -there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; we did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you didn't? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We -didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly -going over to see who was there. - -We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we -could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we -didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with -these people or with Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you go with? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met -by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because -being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go -along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took -us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3 -o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get -there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of -the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and -one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the -front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county -officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or -4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and -opened it up and asked us to come in. - -Mr. BELIN. Who asked you to come in? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus--because Mrs. Paine was -in the house at the time standing next to them. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we started looking around the house. I think -Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They -asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out -who they were--and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I -just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around. - -We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked -around. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see -her room? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us -where the room was and showed us several things in the room. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. She didn't object at all. They were really very -cooperative. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked -her who she was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes; I heard it asked. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the answer given, if you remember? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did they take you out to the garage? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Not me. They took two of--some of the officers. I think it -was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through -Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs. -Paine drew their attention to the garage. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about a rifle? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the -garage at all. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we -called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked -them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the -people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we -told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course -our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs. -Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs. -Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some -arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember -correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's -husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard -the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, -and they were surprised. - -Mr. BELIN. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came -over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President -was shot? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present. - -Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President -was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he -found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody -would be over there questioning them. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, -and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they -found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had -two strings, and just one of the strings were cut. - -Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea. - -Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, -approximately? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. -Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real -stiff. Just normal. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile -and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of -the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children -there. I left and went with her. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to -the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She -(Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, -so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and -whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald -rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying -with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. - -She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was -drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, -across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, -carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I -know we did, but I didn't take it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. -That is all I remember her saying. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was -unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the -weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a -Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them -in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a -neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were -put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us, -and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer, -and we proceeded to go to the city police station. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office -and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery -bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited -a pretty good while. - -By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying -to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for -the wait. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to -talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting -his sick daddy. - -So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and -couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the -clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, -and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was -there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had -him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from -him or question him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. However, I didn't go back over there and get him. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine, -Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same -evening. - -Mr. BELIN. What did she say? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an -affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in -my presence. - -I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the -rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her -saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she -didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in -the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the -blanket was there? - -Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, -apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to -that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when -she said the last time was she saw it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I -questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever -said. - -I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe -she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the -blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That -would be in the affidavit, though. - -Mr. BELIN. Now anything else happen there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit -from Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably -took one from Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, the wife. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I -believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had -been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought -her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got -through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald, -Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and -Michael Paine. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind -of had the feeling--I don't know how to explain it--just like this, -well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite -understand it, or something. She didn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Lee Oswald's brother? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He -seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything at all? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Not to me, not in my presence. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home, -and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant -McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used -his car, and he went along with me to take these people home. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything -more on the way home about the incident or not? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that -Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home, -and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to -go back to Russia. I remember her saying that. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian -to interpret a little bit. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time -I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back -there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us -originally. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the mother? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; the mother, she went back with us. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10 -o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started -taking them to Irving, and got back about 10. - -We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the office? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I -guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the -captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you go in the interrogation room? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished -talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or -something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go -on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald. - -I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you the only two in there at that time? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either -fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left. -It was just a short period of time. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that took place there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask -him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. That he did or did not? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia -and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long -he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Well---- - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it -okay, and that is just about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about the assassination at all? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the -assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We did. - -Mr. BELIN. Like what kind of questions? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Like where were you at the time this assassination -occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he just keep quiet? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. He just sat there and stared straight ahead. - -Mr. BELIN. Didn't talk at all? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Not in my presence. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe that I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else there that did? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear anybody. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in -the morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Ever see Oswald again? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview, -I believe. I didn't go down there. - -Mr. BELIN. What interview? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I think they had--I don't know whether it was an interview -or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room. - -Mr. BELIN. When would that have been? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. It would have been about midnight. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other -men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning -about 10 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, -I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and -Detective Moore--at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and -Stovall--asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back -to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant at this time? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe -B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up -the search warrant. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the house? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. -One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they -were there. - -I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery -shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted -to. - -Mr. BELIN. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; some of the other officers did. - -Mr. BELIN. What did they take? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. -It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. -I know they took some items. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; there weren't too many items the first day. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the second day? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went -mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I -think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went -through the house and garage. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you take with you? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we picked up--I got a list of it, also, which we -turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and -pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the -garage. - -Mr. BELIN. That was found in the garage? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Any comments about that at all? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, -and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the -assassination." - -Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery -shopping. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you show the picture to them later on? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the -scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand. - -Mr. BELIN. You weren't there when it was done? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, no other than--I didn't even begin to tell you what -all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his -stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot -of Russian, I think they were books on the Russian language, and some -vaccination certificates and stuff like that. - -A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what -it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search -at all. I know that everything we--at the time, that we felt it was -important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and -Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been -some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, -it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the -murder. - -Mr. BELIN. Was an inventory made of the items taken? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. There was. Yes; there was, definitely. - -Mr. BELIN. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for -all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't -get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there -probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a -document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's -invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No. -11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a -copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I -believe you said that--who was the senior officer out there among you, -or wasn't there any? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting -the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective -Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the -previous day, he was spokesman for the group. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. With Rose. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S. -Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball -and let him introduce it in that deposition. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was -out of the house trying to take care of the kids. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we -haven't discussed here? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the -search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we -didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and -myself went back to Irving--should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up -Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an -affidavit from him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking -the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the -affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, -or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he know that it contained a rifle? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times -previous to the assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's -residence that day of the assassination? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and -I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President -got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald -worked, and knowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name -came into his mind immediately. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say it came into his mind? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. He said, knowing about his background and all--I remember -just about what he said--that he knew that he would be asked to be -considered a suspect, and--or that we would consider him a suspect, -something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him -considered to be a suspect? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he -said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or -something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because -for some other reason. - -Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It -is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his -words. I can look at it. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael -Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Right; he did say that. - -Mr. BELIN. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a -blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. - -Mr. BELIN. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the -powersaw." - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked -up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting -equipment. Is that what he said? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President -was shot while he was at work, is that correct? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book -Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and -immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the -President? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. - -Mr. BELIN. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what -he says in the affidavit? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President. -Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the -President? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't -call the FBI. He said he figured that--he did mention that the FBI knew -about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would -consider him a suspect without him having to call them. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, sir? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took -this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end -of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down -there, luckily. - -Mr. BELIN. Luckily you were off? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming -down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go -directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign -it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, -whatever you want to do. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. About how long would it be before it is ready? - -Mr. BELIN. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on -to us? - -Mr. ADAMCIK. I would kind of like to look at it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can -take a look at it. - -Mr. ADAMCIK. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HENRY M. MOORE - -The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear -you here. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MOORE. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter. - -Mr. MOORE. Henry M. Moore. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore? - -Mr. MOORE. Police officer, city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Texas? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. MOORE. I am 39. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. MOORE. Five children. - -Mr. BELIN. Your wife has her hands full with them? - -Mr. MOORE. Sure does. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school here in Dallas? - -Mr. MOORE. No; Ennis, Ennis High School. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. MOORE. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you a graduate from high school? - -Mr. MOORE. No, I didn't graduate. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through high school? - -Mr. MOORE. Eighth. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. Went in the Service. - -Mr. BELIN. Into the Armed Services? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Army or Navy? - -Mr. MOORE. Paratroopers; Army. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Paratroopers? - -Mr. MOORE. Three years. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get out? - -Mr. MOORE. January 11, 1946. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that day? - -Mr. MOORE. Very well. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? - -Mr. MOORE. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I -came to Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went -into the Service? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You went direct from school to the Service? - -Mr. MOORE. Shortly afterward. - -Mr. BELIN. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. Came to Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. What year was that? - -Mr. MOORE. January 31, 1949. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your position there right now? - -Mr. MOORE. Detective. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When were you to report to work that day? - -Mr. MOORE. Four; 4:00 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you report for work that day? - -Mr. MOORE. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town. - -Mr. BELIN. How shortly after? - -Mr. MOORE. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2. - -Mr. BELIN. You reported down at the main police station? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. MOORE. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't -know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's -room. - -Mr. BELIN. At 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe that is right. - -Mr. BELIN. About when was that? - -Mr. MOORE. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes -may show a little closer time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who got it? - -Mr. MOORE. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he go with you there, too? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Who else went? - -Mr. MOORE. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to that address, and did the landlady--let me ask -you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already -inside. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived -there? - -Mr. MOORE. I believe they had; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. MOORE. We searched his room. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. Brought everything in the room to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. You made a list of what you found there? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything in particular that you found there? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks -located on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. MOORE. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. MOORE. A holster. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of gun? - -Mr. MOORE. .38 pistol, I believe it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster? - -Mr. MOORE. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun -from him earlier in the day. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else there that you can establish? - -Mr. MOORE. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects? - -Mr. BELIN. Some letters? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers. - -Mr. BELIN. Pamphlets? - -Mr. MOORE. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure, -though. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a -photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way, -how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. MOORE. I only went one time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know? - -Mr. MOORE. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We -brought everything that was in the room. - -Mr. BELIN. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked -on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or -receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of -the inventory here? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe it is. - -Mr. BELIN. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might -state for the record that this appears to be--what was the last number -I gave there--it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record -that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known -in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280-286, -inclusive. - -I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated -November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the -search. Do you have any explanation for that? - -Mr. MOORE. No; I wouldn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not? - -Mr. MOORE. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles -a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or -not that was there? - -Mr. MOORE. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically -there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated -in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your -knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked -"Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex., -dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do -you have any independent recollection of that being there? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except -you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from -there? - -Mr. MOORE. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. I also note that one of the items appears to be a World -Health Organization vaccination card, bearing the name of Lee Oswald, -with the name of the vaccinator as A. J. Hidell, post office box 30016, -New Orleans, La., with the date stamped June 8, 1963. - -Do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards? - -Mr. MOORE. Not specifically no. - -Mr. BELIN. And it says that there is a passport there. Do you remember -that at all? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You remember specifically the passport? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is an application for a Texas driver's license, -which appears as No. 450. Do you remember that at all? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; I do, since I have read the list. I remember the -driver's license application. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you Commission Exhibit 426, and ask you to state if -you know what that is? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is that? - -Mr. MOORE. Application for Texas driver's license. - -Mr. BELIN. You picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on -that day that you searched the residence at Beckley? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; you find my initials on the back of it, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Your initials, it says, HMM, 11-12-63. Those are your -initials? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; and date. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who FMT is, or are those initials there? - -Mr. MOORE. I believe that will be F. M. Turner. - -Mr. BELIN. F. M. Turner? - -Mr. MOORE. I believe. That is the only one I could think of it would be. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. About how long did you stay out there? - -Mr. MOORE. Hour and a half, possibly. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. We drove back to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I assume then that you went through the property and -marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; it did. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with -the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can -think of offhand? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. The next day you reported for work about when? - -Mr. MOORE. As soon after the Oswald shooting in the basement, as soon -as I could get there. I live out of town. - -Mr. BELIN. Wait, that is when Oswald was shot. I am not talking about -Sunday. I am talking about Saturday. When did you search the Beckley -premises? On Friday, Saturday, or Sunday? - -Mr. MOORE. Saturday. No; we searched it on Friday. Irving on Saturday. - -Mr. BELIN. Irving on Saturday. When did you get to work on Saturday? - -Mr. MOORE. I believe I came in around 10 that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you worked in the office for a while? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did offhand? - -Mr. MOORE. Answered the phone. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later -in the day to search the residence at Irving. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving? - -Mr. MOORE. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Had a search warrant for that? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You found several items there? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Made a list of those similar to this other list? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out -there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else? - -Mr. MOORE. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. -We had an Irving officer with us. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you to go ahead? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said -they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned -before we left. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there -that stands out in your mind? - -Mr. MOORE. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Rose show it to you out there? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes, he did; at the time he found it. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you near him when he found it. - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How far away was he from you? - -Mr. MOORE. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. -Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Rose say to you when he found it? - -Mr. MOORE. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and -commented on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MOORE. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed -it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office. - -Mr. BELIN. You made another list of it? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did that day? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you bring in Michael Paine for taking an affidavit from -him, do you remember? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. Mr. Adamcik and I went out and brought--we went -back to the residence and brought him in later that day. - -Mr. BELIN. You talked to him for a while? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you took the affidavit? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then the next day was the 24th of November, Sunday. Were you -on duty Sunday morning? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get to work on Sunday? - -Mr. MOORE. Approximately 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. MOORE. I am sure I worked around the office until the time that -Rose and I went to Ruby's apartment. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant for that? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. We went to Judge Joe B. Brown's residence and got the -search warrant. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it pretty much standard procedure at the Dallas Police -Department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's -premises? - -Mr. MOORE. More or less. - -Mr. BELIN. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure -when you come to the door? Just what do you do? - -Mr. MOORE. If we do not have a search warrant? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. MOORE. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If -we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or -things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not -have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house -anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then -in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way -that bears on this investigation? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister? - -Mr. MOORE. Either way. - -Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read -this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or -you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us -directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not? - -Mr. MOORE. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it? - -Mr. MOORE. What is the procedure? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you -sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the -court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of -your testimony here. - -Mr. MOORE. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the -reporter. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read -it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting -in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at -the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. MOORE. Yes; she can. - -Mr. BELIN. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us. - -Mr. MOORE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. -Good-bye. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER - -The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. TURNER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. - -Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner? - -Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. TURNER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. TURNER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. TURNER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas? - -Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school? - -Mr. TURNER. Finished. - -Mr. BELIN. You finished high school? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. Went in the service. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy? - -Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service? - -Mr. TURNER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy? - -Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard. - -Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? - -Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge? - -Mr. TURNER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's -helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then -I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked -there until I came to work for the police department. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. TURNER. I was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade? - -Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your position? - -Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 -minutes in front of the motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car? - -Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department. - -Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police? - -Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose -name I do not remember. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President? - -Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do -not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the -motorcade? - -Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love -Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They -were about ready to leave, and we had a running start. - -Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio? - -Mr. TURNER. Two. - -Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on? - -Mr. TURNER. Channel 2. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2? - -Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there -was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some -of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and -forth. - -Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or -also on channel 2? - -Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual -motorcade, is that correct? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio. - -Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was -going? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio -conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got -to Main and Houston? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with? - -Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry. - -Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of -anything out of the ordinary? - -Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, -at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like -Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with -him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men -to get over there and cover off the area around this building there -until some investigators could get there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. -I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said -cover off that area around the overpass, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car? - -Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed? - -Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car. - -Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the -crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car? - -Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the -crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we -come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately? - -Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about -a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it -happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we -drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train -that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched -this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were -already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is -when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly. - -Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there? - -Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar? - -Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody? - -Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it -was, sitting there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they -heard the shots came from? - -Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did -you talk to anyone? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly, -and who else? - -Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina. - -Mr. BELIN. They all worked there? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them? - -Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a -warehouse like. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. BELIN. What did they say? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from -west of the building at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when -the shots came? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was -at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the -building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe -Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in -the warehouse. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him? - -Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their -building. - -Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down -the questioning? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. -I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after -that? - -Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, -come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which -was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might -be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the -sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to -witnesses. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? - -Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see -you have something about an Arnold Rowland there? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland. - -Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did -Rowland say, according to your notes? - -Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with -his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were -standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes -before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the -background of an open window two floors from the top. - -Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top? - -Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with -scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about -this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? - -Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he -made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white -man, and that he heard three shots. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you -remember? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court -reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the -time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window -in any other windows there? - -Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert -Edwards? - -Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them? - -Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing -on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an -open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair -was longer than a crewcut. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did they say? - -Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an -affidavit taken from them at the time, too. - -Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under -Fischer or under Edwards, or both? - -Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man? - -Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. BELIN. Which one? - -Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is. - -Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer? - -Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures? - -Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't -remember positive. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man? - -Mr. TURNER. None other than that. - -Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the -taking of various affidavits there? - -Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the -affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and -affidavits was taken from them. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie -Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan? - -Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan -[spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to. - -Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one. - -Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was -thinking of when you said Brennan. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an -officer had been shot? - -Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking -to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book -Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there. - -Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. -There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the -building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in -there? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat -being found on Industrial Street? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in -the case, but it was placed in the property room. - -Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me -a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had -turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it -had any bearing on the case or not. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated? - -Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the -case. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and -I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that -Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I -might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could -do down there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants -was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search -warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one -of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he -said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this -address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there." - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here -a minute; 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car -and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we -got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, -Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because -someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge -Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this -Lee Oswald had a room in it. - -Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, -it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether -the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the -warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I -don't remember the date on the warrant. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it -that didn't belong with the house, you know. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel? - -Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three -were there when we got there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the -homicide and robbery office of the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition -Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of -an inventory that you made? - -Mr. TURNER. I think all of this---- - -Mr. BELIN. Just a second---- - -Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is -the typed-up list of the copies that I made. - -Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at -1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up? - -Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other -things? - -Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It -is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth. - -Mr. BELIN. This is your original? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon. - -Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made -by one of the secretaries in the--our office. - -Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this -notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote -part. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as -"Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in -evidence. - -Do you need this back? - -Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had -in my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made -a more detailed description of it down at the property room. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley -residence? - -Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not? - -Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a -Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or -three people there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were -waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them -before we did. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that? - -Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. TURNER. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were -going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe -I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with -Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to -work with that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How -do you go about doing it? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write -it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them -sign it in front of a notary. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from -this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, -or not? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the -secretary, she might have filed it somewhere. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you did that day? - -Mr. TURNER. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this -thing. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you -think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes -here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about -it. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at -1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell -with you? - -Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of -vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination -cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there -was any of those there or not? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or was not? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know -of, except I came to work, like I said. - -They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots -of us busy answering the phone. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation -sessions with Oswald? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end -of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in -just as they were winding up on him one night. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to -identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't -know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a -picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he -had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he -stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact -replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to -Captain Fritz, and he already had the information. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any -importance? - -Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, -November 24? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station? - -Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and -my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, -or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I -called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to -work about 1 o'clock or so. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with -regard to the assassination? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to -the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man -at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say? - -Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald -had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 -or 212 Irving Boulevard. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found -there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, -Dial Ryder, that worked for him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I -have talked with both of them. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I -sure don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener? - -Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald -in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work -for the man in the shop. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything? - -Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names, -and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason -there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't -worked on it. - -Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the -clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of -the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a -gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About when was that? - -Mr. TURNER. About November 28. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? - -Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say? - -Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of -the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could -figure out, his--this work probably came in around November the 4th or -November the 8th of 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would -call attention to it? - -Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on -it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about -this, about the man they did the work for? - -Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say? - -Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself? - -Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these -men? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket? - -Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket -on--or try to pick up the work ticket? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said -that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and -not let it get away from him. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this? - -Mr. TURNER. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you -remember? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did -you discuss this with Mr. Greener? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it? - -Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith -means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach -a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. -Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three -screws in it. - -Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he -said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it -that was found in the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it. - -Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top? - -Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole. - -Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a -screw? - -Mr. TURNER. A hole. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean? - -Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a -spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, -they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that -is to sight a rifle in. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any -particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for -scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the -Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three -screws in their mount. - -Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not -you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the -School Book Depository Building had? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition -for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle? - -Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber -rifles, 6.5. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further -checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see -if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it -might have been picked up. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether -or not he did this? - -Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't -able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount -or nature or something. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now? - -Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to -him? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say? - -Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the -name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated -that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not -the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification -one way or the other, if you remember? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't -identify him. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? - -Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written -up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could -recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or -something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure -out what day the rifle might have been left there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not? - -Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking -to him, do you? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of -the rifle? - -Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the -paper. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to -determine that he had or had not worked on it? - -Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not -think that he was working on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Why not? - -Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only -two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this -ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap -scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the -man another one, and would remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of -Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.? - -Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said -about this? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked -like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this -man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say -definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him. - -Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of -that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the -investigation you made that we haven't discussed here? - -Mr. TURNER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to -Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three -holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your -curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from -Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this -particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank -you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here. - -One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this -and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive -the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any -preference or not? - -Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as -soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way. - -Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it? - -Mr. TURNER. Well. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GUY F. ROSE - -The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in -the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ROSE. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, now, please? - -Mr. ROSE. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. ROSE. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide -and robbery bureau. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. ROSE. Ten years. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. ROSE. I was born in Grannis, Ark. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school? - -Mr. ROSE. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and -attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District -between Irving and Grand Prairie. - -Mr. BALL. And what have you done since then? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a -construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I -went on the police department. - -Mr. BALL. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21 -years old? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was what year? - -Mr. ROSE. It was in 1954. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. ROSE. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time -of the assassination I was not on duty. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty? - -Mr. ROSE. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting--I came -on to work. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? - -Mr. ROSE. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city -hall. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? - -Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository -and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they -brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and -he told me it was Hidell. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald? - -Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I -found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found -another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of -the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just -said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came -in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his -name was "Hidell"? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Before you saw the cards? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name? - -Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last -name of "Hidell". - -Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you search him? - -Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I -don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it -or not. - -Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you sitting down? - -Mr. ROSE. No; I was standing in the interrogation room. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he--was he standing too? - -Mr. ROSE. No; he was sitting in the chair. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; he was. - -Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him? - -Mr. ROSE. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was present at that time? - -Mr. ROSE. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both -uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present. - -Mr. BALL. The ones who brought him in? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know their names? - -Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, -but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right -there at the time or not. - -Mr. BALL. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true -name? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. ROSE. He said, "You find out." - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You -just find out." - -Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 -North Beckley? - -Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time? - -Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you go out to Irving--to the Irving -Street address? - -Mr. ROSE. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed -me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went -immediately. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to -go to a certain address in Irving? - -Mr. ROSE. I believe he gave me the address. - -Mr. BALL. What was the address? - -Mr. ROSE. 2515 West Fifth in Irving. - -Mr. BALL. How many men went out there? - -Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, -and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and -we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L. -Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and -they came and met us. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant? - -Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house? - -Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the -county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could -see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see -two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as -soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She -apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and -we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you -to come out. Come right on in." - -Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you? - -Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting -happened, I knew there would be someone out." - -Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What part did you take? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I -was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went -into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't -remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few -minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee -Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called -Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and -asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, -ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." - -I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said -she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth -Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she -said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does -have." - -So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone -and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth -Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to -the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying -on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says -that that's where his rifle is." - -Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or -not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did. - -Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out -from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and -so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't -have the rifle in it. - -Mr. BALL. You brought that in? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you see? - -Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that -time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and -talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements -to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and -Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did -assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too -much. - -Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it -was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote -it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken. - -Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael -Paine come in? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in -plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't -appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just -walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the -corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he -didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, -and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I -heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help." - -Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us. - -Mr. BALL. Did Marina Oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say -something? - -Mr. ROSE. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and -Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for -me--she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is." - -Mr. BALL. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie -Randle come over to you? - -Mr. ROSE. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with -her--I saw her out in the yard--I didn't talk to her. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to her at all? - -Mr. ROSE. At that time I didn't--I did later. - -Mr. BALL. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police -department, did you? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children -in our car and also the blanket--I carried it. - -Mr. BALL. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and -looking around for Wesley Frazier? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine -and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was -so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next -door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective -Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying -to locate Wesley Frazier. - -We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked -through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check -of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located -through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone -there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic, -so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to -talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one -that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning. - -Mr. BALL. You took a statement from Frazier that day? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written -affidavit off of him. - -Mr. BALL. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; I brought her in, too. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except -the time you mentioned? - -Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him? - -Mr. ROSE. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday--I was present -when Captain Fritz talked to him. - -Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day? - -Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since -quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage. - -Mr. BALL. What did you find there? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two -cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of -Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald -holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right -with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you -call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative -of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and -he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags? - -Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call -them--more of a greyish-white. - -Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases? - -Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of -them was real worn. - -Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later -that day? - -Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9 -or 10 o'clock, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't -remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but -I don't remember their names. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? - -Mr. ROSE. Do I remember what was said? - -Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got -back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the -rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to -the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they -made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it -back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed -him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw -the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because -somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain -said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?" - -And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I -remember that part of it distinctly. - -I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in -Russia. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored -people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember--he -just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk -about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the -President? - -Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit? - -Mr. ROSE. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of -the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him. -That was the only interrogation I sat in on. - -Mr. BALL. That was the only one you sat in on? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said in that -interrogation? - -Mr. ROSE. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more -said, but I don't remember what it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises? - -Mr. ROSE. Let's, let's see--that was Saturday, and then Sunday, -immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was -supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and -Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's -apartment and search it and I did. - -Mr. BALL. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you, -Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your -signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you -can waive your signature--just as you wish. What do you prefer? - -Mr. ROSE. Well, I don't know--will it be later? - -Mr. BALL. A couple of weeks. - -Mr. ROSE. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime. - -Mr. BALL. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much. - -Mr. ROSE. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you -now, I wanted to mention--we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph, -did you know that? - -Mr. BALL. I know you did--we know about that. - -Mr. ROSE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY - -The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mr. PERRY. W. E. Perry. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address? - -Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook. - -Mr. BALL. And your occupation? - -Mr. PERRY. Police officer. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born -and where you were raised? - -Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school? - -Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went -in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on -to the police department. Been there about 11 years. - -Mr. BALL. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in -November of 1963? - -Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau---- - -Mr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Squadroom? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or---- - -Mr. BALL. First one? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. PERRY. 6:30. - -Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before? - -Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking -part in showups before in your department? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself? - -Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part? - -Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I -don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the -vice squad? - -Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done. - -Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part -in the first showup? - -Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you? - -Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau. - -Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third -floor of the homicide office. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was there? - -Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide -detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't -know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the -office was---- - -Mr. BALL. Anything said there? - -Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress? - -Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my -shirt and put another sports coat on. - -Mr. BALL. What color? - -Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup? - -Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup. - -Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. To whom? - -Mr. PERRY. To Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand? - -Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand. - -Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup? - -Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1. - -Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald? - -Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me. - -Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald? - -Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed. - -Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4? - -Mr. PERRY. Ables. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before? - -Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally. - -Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any -questions? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you. - -Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."? - -Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation. - -Mr. BALL. What else? - -Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not -mistaken. - -Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him? - -Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they -were, but they weren't---- - -Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or true address? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Gave some---- - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that? - -Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and -said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we -went back up there and---- - -Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time? - -Mr. PERRY. Same way. - -Mr. BALL. Same coat? - -Mr. PERRY. Same coat. - -Mr. BALL. No tie? - -Mr. PERRY. No tie. - -Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address? - -Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the -audience? - -Mr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions? - -Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims? - -Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience? - -Mr. PERRY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage? - -Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know? - -Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one? - -Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please? - -Mr. PERRY. About 5'11". - -Mr. BALL. What is your weight? - -Mr. PERRY. About 150. - -Mr. BALL. And your hair? - -Mr. PERRY. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. And your eyes? - -Mr. PERRY. Blue. - -Mr. BALL. Complexion? - -Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess. - -Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK - -The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CLARK. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. - -Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address? - -Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? - -Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. CLARK. Eleven years. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? - -Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Go through school here? - -Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. CLARK. After I went to school? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. CLARK. I went to work. - -Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't -going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about -you and where you were born and your early education, what you have -done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the -testimony. - -Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the -police department. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department? - -Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of -the police department, did you? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. CLARK. Two. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were? - -Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the -exact time. - -Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. -That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup? - -Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple -of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? - -Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BALL. Who went with you? - -Mr. CLARK. My partner. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there? - -Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there. - -Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there? - -Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there? - -Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people? - -Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody. - -Mr. BALL. What was said at that time? - -Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us -to make a showup with them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long? - -Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less. - -Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it -was a red vest, went on down to the jail office. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest? - -Mr. CLARK. At homicide. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't own a---- - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or---- - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt? - -Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Took off your tie? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on? - -Mr. CLARK. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. With belt? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do? - -Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a -sports coat hanging there that he put on. - -Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you? - -Mr. CLARK. Total? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man -out of the jail office. - -Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup? - -Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand. - -Mr. BALL. Your right---- - -Mr. CLARK. To his left. - -Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald? - -Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right -hand. - -Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables? - -Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left. - -Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the -showup as such? Have a number above each man? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do. - -Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were -you numbered from left to right? - -Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right. - -Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the -audience? - -Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite. - -Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who -was the first one to the left? - -Mr. CLARK. First one to my left? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. CLARK. Be Ables. - -Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry. - -Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2? - -Mr. CLARK. Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3? - -Mr. CLARK. Myself. - -Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4? - -Mr. CLARK. Ables. - -Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. -The audience was looking at him, it would be---- - -Mr. BALL. He stood on your left? - -Mr. CLARK. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1? - -Mr. CLARK. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any -questions? - -Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions. - -Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any -questions? Ask your name and address and occupation? - -Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup. - -Mr. BALL. In the showup. - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? - -Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Fictitious name? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation? - -Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious. - -Mr. BALL. Fictitious? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said. - -Mr. BALL. Lights were on you? - -Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and -tell me what time that first showup was? - -Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you? - -Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in -that? - -Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from -homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after -the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they -wanted us again. - -Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around? - -Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office. - -Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there. - -Mr. BALL. Who called you? - -Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call? - -Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there. - -Mr. BALL. Fritz' office? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in -the first showup? - -Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the -homicide, and I took it off and left it there. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress? - -Mr. CLARK. The same red vest. - -Mr. BALL. What about your tie? - -Mr. CLARK. No tie. - -Mr. BALL. What about the coat? - -Mr. CLARK. No coat. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing? - -Mr. CLARK. Same position. - -Mr. BALL. Same position? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1? - -Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald---- - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. CLARK. Perry. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2? - -Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4. - -Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again. - -Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? - -Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation. - -Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers. - -Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is your height? - -Mr. CLARK. About 5'11". - -Mr. BALL. What is your weight? - -Mr. CLARK. About 177. - -Mr. BALL. And your hair? - -Mr. CLARK. Blond. - -Mr. BALL. And your eyes? - -Mr. CLARK. Blue. - -Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair? - -Mr. CLARK. Fair. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before? - -Mr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in -the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in -the police department showup? - -Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual. - -Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before? - -Mr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that is all. - -Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his -deposition. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES - -The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ABLES. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. - -Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables? - -Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? - -Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. ABLES. About 7 months. - -Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department? - -Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee. - -Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not---- - -Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the---- - -Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? - -Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't. - -Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. - -Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school? - -Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy? - -Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy? - -Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police -department. - -Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. With Oswald? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who -asked you to, or ordered you to? - -Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan. - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? - -Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out -there. - -Mr. BALL. To where? - -Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined -in with them. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room. - -Mr. BALL. Showup room? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room? - -Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here -[indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And dark trousers? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Have a tie on? - -Mr. ABLES. No. - -Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is -that right? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup -room? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before? - -Mr. ABLES. No. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police -Department being used in a showup before? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the -police department. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly -what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using -jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not -holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned -about it? - -Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a -police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard -of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need -somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a -showup or something. - -Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked -certain questions? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in -the line? - -Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4. - -Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the -audience? - -Mr. ABLES. Be on the left. - -Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Your left? - -Mr. ABLES. My left. - -Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he -ask you any questions? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? - -Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my -occupation was and where I went to high school. - -Mr. BALL. And where what? - -Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. What did you answer? - -Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't -recall what I told him when he asked my occupation. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did -you tell him? - -Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the -questions? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything? - -Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him -questions. - -Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't -you? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day? - -Mr. ABLES. About 6:30. - -Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed? - -Mr. ABLES. Same way. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup? - -Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same -members back in there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions? - -Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number? - -Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup? - -Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself. - -Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Ask you questions? - -Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did -on the first showup. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup. - -Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they -were? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr BALL. When was that? - -Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time. - -Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock? - -Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you? - -Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners. - -Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there? - -Mr. ABLES. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners? - -Mr ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know -whether he was there? - -Mr ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know him? - -Mr. ABLES. No. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup? - -Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said -that he wanted me back in there. - -Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail -during the time? - -Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office. - -Mr. BALL. In between the showups? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day? - -Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup? - -Mr. ABLES. Same way. - -Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second? - -Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again? - -Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite -sure there was no questions asked. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number? - -Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald? - -Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2. - -Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald? - -Mr. ABLES. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height? - -Mr. ABLES. About 5'9". - -Mr. BALL. What is your weight? - -Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something. - -Mr. BALL. And your hair? - -Mr. ABLES. Dark. - -Mr. BALL. Eyes? - -Mr. ABLES. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. Complexion? - -Mr. ABLES. Ruddy. - -Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too. - -Mr. ABLES. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN - -The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on -April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please. - -Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you -are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in -this matter? You were asked to come here? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you not? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the -facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain -information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to -their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify. - -Are you willing to testify to whatever you know? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff -officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name? - -Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear. - -Mr. BALL. Dallas? - -Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born? - -Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. In Dallas? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? - -Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray. - -Mr. BALL. Red? - -Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? - -Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? - -Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service. - -Mr. BALL. Direct to where? - -Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service. - -Mr. BALL. Delivery Service? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? - -Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville. - -Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that. - -Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary. - -Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. For what charge? - -Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you there? - -Mr. LUJAN. Three years. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale -Groceries. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. - -Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps? - -Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. - -Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was the charge? - -Mr. LUJAN. Investigation. - -Mr. BALL. Of what? - -Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics. - -Mr. BALL. Of narcotics? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested? - -Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that. - -Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination. - -Mr. BALL. Before the assassination? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail? - -Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday. - -Mr. BALL. Then did they release you? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything? - -Mr. LUJAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take -part in a showup? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day was it? - -Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the -afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon? - -Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Or what? - -Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday---- - -Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that? - -Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand -up and he looked at me and said, "Come out." - -So, I came out, and he went and got three more. - -Mr. BALL. Got three more? - -Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows. - -Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know them? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did they look like? - -Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker. - -Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight? - -Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170. - -Mr. BALL. What is your height? - -Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8". - -Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark? - -Mr. LUJAN. Black. - -Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes? - -Mr. LUJAN. Brown. - -Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion? - -Mr. LUJAN. Olive. - -Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican. - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you? - -Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about---- - -Mr. BALL. Same coloring? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup? - -Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him. - -Mr. BALL. Right next to him? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything? - -Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were -standing in the lineup? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were what would be---- - -Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him. - -Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed---- - -Mr. BALL. To the right? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he? - -Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something. - -Mr. BALL. How were you dressed? - -Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt. - -Mr. BALL. What color shirt? - -Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket. - -Mr. BALL. Brown jacket? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Any tie on? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co. - -Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number. - -Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address? - -Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all. - -Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud? - -Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a -shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something. - -Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left -about a minute. - -Mr. BALL. Then you left? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you -in there and he did ask you questions? - -Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and -that's all. - -Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they? - -Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others -their name and address? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address? - -Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave. - -Mr. LUJAN. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself? - -Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me. - -Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working? - -Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN - -The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise -your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BROWN. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please. - -Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown? - -Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BROWN. Police officer. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? - -Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years. - -Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally? - -Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home. - -Mr. BELIN. You go to school there? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. BROWN. Through high school. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? - -Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way? - -Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. BROWN. No; divorced. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy? - -Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the -Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way? - -Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty -officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy. - -Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my -discharge in 1944. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war? - -Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. - -Mr. BELIN. As what? - -Mr. BROWN. As an installer. - -Mr. BELIN. Of telephones? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went -to work for the city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go -to work for the city of Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. How long now? - -Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your position now? - -Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so? - -Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective -J. R. Leavelle. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President? - -Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the -office. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that -was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now." - -So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there -and help them." - -So we immediately put this subject in jail. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the -back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth -floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth -floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me -to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there -was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take -them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they -were at the time of the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. - -Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they -were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city -hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, -and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of -them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley -looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is -one of my boys." - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say? - -Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald -in there in the room we were using. - -We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in -there. - -Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered -the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth -floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers -had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and -told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified -was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there. - -He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes." - -Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time? - -Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas -School Book Depository. He called from there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was -responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes." - -Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination? - -Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal -opinion at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. -Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at -this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, -saw, or heard at the time of the assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the -time you talked to him? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, -that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from -him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring -Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his -own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in -conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and -what he was doing, and what type work he did there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the -shooting? - -Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the -shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent -to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President? - -Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he -said he was. - -Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me. - -Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the -deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then. - -Mr. BROWN. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an -affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time? - -Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee? - -Mr. BROWN. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit? - -Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from -every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they -were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that -you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form? - -I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard -to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that -you participated in? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, -C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with -a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a -busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in -the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from -your left to right. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the -lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BROWN. No; it does not. - -Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available? - -Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were -taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee -Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the -bus transfer. - -Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup -were for other witnesses to observe. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup? - -Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his -identification? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the -bus. I gave him a transfer." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found -in Oswald's possession? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that? - -Mr. BROWN. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority. - -Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that? - -Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark." - -Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that? - -Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He -did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, -and he held it up for comparison there in our presence. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you -remember? - -Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the -identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups. - -Mr. BELIN. Who else? - -Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. -Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder -from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took -affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home. - -After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room -where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other -witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively -identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. -Barbara Jeannette Davis. - -Mr. BELIN. Was---- - -Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and -Mrs. Barbara Davis. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick? - -Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a -four-man lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man? - -Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got -them under the numbers, too. - -Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly. - -Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification? - -Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the -showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses -on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the -murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the -assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, -November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a -Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law -of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an -additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard. - -Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the -Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent -hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the -homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the -two women? - -Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office -for affidavits and identification. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to? - -Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over? - -Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that. - -Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that? - -Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara -Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime -lab himself, which was initialled by both of us. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir? - -Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any -further witnesses. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or -the Tippit murder? - -Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition -when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have -our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your -choice. - -Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then? - -Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right -out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and -the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES - -Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in -the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GRAVES. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter? - -Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves? - -Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8, -1918. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and -Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp. - -Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years? - -Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then -I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized -and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was -discharged after the war. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and -I cooked principally all the time I was in. - -Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food -wasn't good? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints. - -Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do? - -Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to -work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express -Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to -work for Interstate Theatres. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate? - -Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H. -Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they -went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where -I was working when I went to work for the police department. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say -Paramount, was that---- - -Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section -of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount -Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, -which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the -movie industry or picture industry, so to speak. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business? - -Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where? - -Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres? - -Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning -operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the -equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration. - -Mr. BELIN. Of theatres? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BELIN. What year was that? - -Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever -since? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all? - -Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That -is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact. - -Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you -got to the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from, -I believe her name was, Helen Markham. - -Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass -confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she -was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across -the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her -over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady -and take an affidavit from her, which I did. - -Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions. - -Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally. - -Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most -hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and -Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many -people were in this showup? - -Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up? - -Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was -identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in -a four-man lineup, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular -lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that -lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any -way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this -lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs. -Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men -that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the -names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself. -I don't remember this physical description. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or -was one or more a Negro? - -Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual -if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear -in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their -approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I -might add, because we just don't operate that way. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to -showups? Perhaps you could tell us this. - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call -the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the -showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the -approximate age, size, and so forth. - -And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we -have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify -what age or size you want? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the -man that you are bringing down. - -Mr. BELIN. Well---- - -Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out. - -Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the -particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another -particular age and size? - -Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to -pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. -That is what it boils down to. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said -when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to -her? - -Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately -4 or 5 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct? - -Mr. GRAVES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time? - -Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately -in the first row of seats near the front. - -Mr. BELIN. She was seated? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing. - -Mr. BELIN. She was standing? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am -sure you have seen them? - -Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the -showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is -that correct? - -Mr. GRAVES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the -men in the showup came in? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the -last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that -came in. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and -then No. 1? - -Mr. GRAVES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying? - -Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as -far as from here to that stand, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, -Oswald. I mean at this particular time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their -profiles? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is -the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left, -and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time -that she made the identification? - -Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that -would--did they speak any words or say anything at all? - -Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am -reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure. -If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not. - -Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an -actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or -pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing -or what they looked like? - -Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has -been done, however, in the past. - -But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing, -because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a -time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the -picture, and so forth. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in -connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's -identification? - -Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual -showup? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee -Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at -4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on -the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man -lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your -actions on that day? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit -of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe. - -Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not? - -Mr. GRAVES. November 23. - -Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22. - -Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down -for the record. - -Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me -if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the -written record that you submitted to your department. - -I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you -can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in -your written report. - -Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you -remember something that you might not have put down at the time. - -Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen -Markham back to her address, to let her out? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said -as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting? - -Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to -see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either -going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her -being at that location. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other -people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not? - -Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were? - -Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo -Benavides. - -Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do -with the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a -lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not -seen anything authentic about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the -city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway -and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is -there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come -down to give an affidavit or view a lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea. - -Mr. BELIN. Well---- - -Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw -them or had any occasion to talk to them any further. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo -Benavides? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see -if I can help you a little bit. - -I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the -Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over -Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in -your memory? - -Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him -to one side. - -Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to? - -Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that. - -Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22? - -Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so -many phone calls. - -Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day? - -Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23? - -Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at -all, or not? - -Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take -her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was. - -Mr. GRAVES. What? - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down -to view a lineup? - -Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of. - -Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus -shortly after the assassination? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to -a lineup and she refused to come down? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I -asked her to come down and give an affidavit. - -Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose -responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? -Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of -the investigation, or what? - -Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in -charge of the entire investigation. - -Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe? - -Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been -Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23? - -Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I -don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding. - -Mr. BELIN. Now on November 24--first, I want to take that part of -November 24 up to the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by -Jack Ruby. First, did you have any contact or anything to do with the -investigation of the case on November 24, on Sunday? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; not before he was transferred. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GRAVES. Nothing except that I was present during the latter part of -the interrogation; part of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you state the circumstances under which you were -present? How you happened to be present? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I had been told that we were going to transfer Lee -Harvey Oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so -that would necessitate going into the office where he was. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you find when you went in the office? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I found, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald, Captain -Fritz, and the people that I have named here. The others present were -Mr. Holmes from the U.S. Post Office Department, Mr. Kelley from -the Secret Service, Agent Sorrels from the Secret Service, L. D. -Montgomery, detective; C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle; and Chief Curry -came in just a few minutes before we started to move. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in the bringing of Oswald down to be -interrogated? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At about what time in the morning, was this? - -Mr. GRAVES. I think that was around 9:30 a.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did -you leave? - -Mr. GRAVES. I stayed in the same room near. In the bureau, actually. - -Mr. BELIN. This was done in Captain Fritz' office, was it not? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. After you brought Lee Harvey Oswald into Captain Fritz' -office at 9:30 a.m., what did you do? - -Mr. GRAVES. I went back out and answered telephones and talked to -people coming in. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you witness any part of the early interrogation? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you go back into Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. GRAVES. Roughly, about 11:10 or 11:15 a.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, the original time set for transfer was around 10 a.m.? - -Mr. GRAVES. That was my understanding. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your -deposition here? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you have already been questioned as to the transfer of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the -interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, -but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and -in Russia. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was -in Mexico? - -Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico? - -Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he -said. I don't remember exactly, so I would rather not say anything. I -know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure -didn't amount to a great deal. Very evasive, as every other answer was. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific, any questions or any -statements that Oswald made about any other subject that was discussed? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, he said that he had been a student of Marxism since -he was 14, I believe, and Communist line, and that he, well, one of -his last statements was that the American people would soon forget the -President was shot. Of course he never admitted that he did it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it? - -Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; he was asked, but of course---- - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said? - -Mr. GRAVES. He said no, he didn't shoot him. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot Officer -Tippit? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a -rifle? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his answer was? - -Mr. GRAVES. He said that he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of -him with a rifle? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his statement was with regard to the -picture? - -Mr. GRAVES. He said, "You could superimpose anything you want to with -cameras. It wasn't him." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else, that you remember, about the -picture? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about the use of an alias? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes; he was, but he denied that, of course. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his -possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my -presence. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he -was in your presence? - -Mr. GRAVES. Having a lawyer? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which -was around 9:30, how long did you stay there? Through about how many -minutes of interrogation before you left? - -Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, from 9:30 until approximately 11:15, somewhere -along there. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred -throughout this period? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, how long were you in the room where he was being -interrogated? - -Mr. GRAVES. About 10 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. You were there the first 10 minutes? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; last 10 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any of the initial questions of the -interrogation at all? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you accompanied Oswald down from his fifth floor jail -cell to Captain Fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with him when you picked him -up at his jail cell? - -Mr. GRAVES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down -for interrogation? - -Mr. GRAVES. I told him they were going to transfer him. - -Mr. BELIN. That is what you told him? - -Mr. GRAVES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say as to that? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know what -transfer meant, I don't think. I think he meant from one jail cell to -another. He didn't know that meant going to the county. - -Mr. BELIN. When you brought him down to Captain Fritz' office, he of -course had been there before, hadn't he? - -Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have any comments as he walked in the office about -being interrogated or anything of that nature? - -Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. He might have said something to the news -media, I don't remember what it was. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald ever -requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal -knowledge is concerned? Did he ever make any such request to you or in -your presence? - -Mr. GRAVES. No, no; sure didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he -was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer? - -Mr. GRAVES. Not in my presence. - -Mr. BELIN. This is what I am asking, then, just of your own knowledge? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; he wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. He might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done -before you? - -Mr. GRAVES. Might have been by someone else, but not in my presence. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this as much contact as you had with Oswald? You -indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell -and you brought him down to be interrogated on November 24, when -you were present during about 10 minutes, the latter part of this -interrogation. Any other contacts with Oswald apart from these? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; not that I had direct contact with him. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your impression of him, as far as a person is -concerned? His demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, -but I would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular. - -Mr. BELIN. An eight ball in Army vernacular? - -Mr. GRAVES. In any vernacular. We deal with a lot of people in our -business, as well as we run into all types of people. I would say that -he was egotistical. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me stop right there. What gave you the impression he was -egotistical? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't know. A person of his nature and cocky -attitude, I don't know exactly how to explain it. - -Mr. BELIN. Any specific thing that he did that gave you that -impression, that you can remember at all, or not? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; not anything in particular. Again, you just have to be -around people. I don't know how to explain how people act to where it -means anything, but I know what it means to me. I have been wrong a few -times, but I have been right most of the time in summing up how people -are, their actions, and so forth, and I would say this boy was a little -far out in his belief about things in general. - -And the way he conducted hisself. He is just plain egotistical, that is -all. He don't care about you, me, or anybody else. He is caring about -Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you think of any specific action or remark of his that -might be an illustration of this? - -Mr. GRAVES. I can't offhand, no. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball." -You used "egotistical." Can you use any other adjective that you think -would apply to him as you saw him? - -Mr. GRAVES. No; I think that pretty well covers it, myself. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he -quick to make remarks? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark -when he was spoken to or asked a question. - -Mr. BELIN. Is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or -not? - -Mr. GRAVES. Not always polite. He was straightforward and to the point, -and not necessarily polite. - -Don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because I am just telling -you my own personal feeling about the man, and I could be wrong, as I -said. So I am not an expert in that field. I am just telling you what I -think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. As I said, I -could be wrong. I have been wrong before. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he attentive as you saw him. I mean, did he---- - -Mr. GRAVES. If you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the -men. He listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer -by the time you got through asking him. That would make him attentive. - -Mr. BELIN. This could be helpful. In other words, if he were asked a -question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just -shoot an answer straight back? - -Mr. GRAVES. Just answered right back. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember, -or was this almost invariably the case? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, that was the case in everything that I heard him say. -He didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all. - -Mr. BELIN. Detective Graves, is there anything else you can think of -that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything -to do with Lee Harvey Oswald or the investigation of the assassination, -or the shooting of Officer Tippit, that we haven't discussed here? - -Mr. GRAVES. At this point, I don't recall anything else. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so, -because we know you have been down here once before, and I want to tell -you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of -this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or -you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in Washington, -and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? Do you have any -preference at all? - -Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I don't sign it, it won't make any difference -anyway. - -Mr. BELIN. You can waive it if you would like to. - -Mr. GRAVES. I will waive it. It don't make any difference to me. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. GRAVES. In the interest of time and everything. - -Mr. BELIN. Thanks a lot. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. LEAVELLE - -The testimony of James R. Leavelle was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. -Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general, was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand? - -[Witness complying.] - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. James R. Leavelle. - -Mr. BALL. And your address? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. 7703 R-i-l-l-a [spelling], Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. And, what is your occupation? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Detective, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the department? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Fourteen years. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the homicide squad? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. A little over 5 years. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me about where you were born and your education; what -you have done most of your life. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was born and raised mostly in Red River County in -east Texas and went into service. After leaving the service, coming out -of the service I worked for different companies here in Dallas until I -joined the department in 1950. - -Mr. BALL. The purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts -concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. That's the general -purpose of it. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member -of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with -Oswald, myself. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I was working 8 to 4 I believe, that month and I -had--when I heard of the assassination. I had just come into the -homicide office with a Negro boy I had arrested for robbery. - -Mr. BALL. Whereabouts did you go then after that? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. We, along with Charlie Brown, went to the building, the -Texas Book Depository, and talked with the inspector there. I asked him -if the building had been secured and he said it was and Captain Fritz -was in the building. - -Mr. BALL. Was that Inspector Sawyer? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the -sheriff's office and I might go over and check and see what was needed, -so I went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar -more or less. They had several witnesses around and they wanted to -take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. So, when -I walked in, they knew I was a homicide man and would be indirectly -responsible for some of the investigation, so I talked with Allen -Sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the -taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four, -five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me -that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and -asked me what was needed, so I told them to work with Mr. Sweatt and -take those affidavits and they could do that as well as I and I would -go back to the Depository and see what might further be needed over -there. I went to the Depository and had been there just a short time -talking to some of the officers on duty there. I don't remember who -they were at this time and at that time I heard a radio broadcast of -the shooting in Oak Cliff which involved Officer Tippit and I called my -office and found that there was no one to answer the call in Oak Cliff -and since everything was under control there, I felt like some of us -should be in Oak Cliff, so I borrowed a car from Detective Red Edwards -of burglary---- - -(At this point, Mr. Robert T. Davis enters.) - -Mr. BALL. Go ahead, Mr. Leavelle. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I borrowed an automobile from Detective Red Edwards, A. -L. Edwards, and proceeded to the Oak Cliff area. I went to the scene of -the shooting. They had removed Tippit's body at that time and I talked -with the sergeant and the officer. - -Mr. BALL. What were their names? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe Sergeant Bud Owens was the sergeant there and -one of the uniformed officers was--I may be in error on this, but I -believe it was Poe. - -Mr. BALL. J. M. Poe? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; P-o-e [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. At that time someone told you some empty .38 caliber hulls -had been picked up. Did Poe tell you that? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you the hulls? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; he did not give them to me. I think my instructions -to him were to turn them over to the crime lab. - -Mr. BALL. Did he show them to you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I don't think so; he may have but I do not recall. He -may have. He did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't -know her name at the time. So, while I was talking to him was when -the call came out they seen the suspect go into the Texas Theatre, -so I proceeded to the Texas Theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, I -didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so -I returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and I -believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen -Oswald running from the scene. - -Mr. BALL. Who told you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Poe, I believe. Now, I could be in error on that but -someone told me anyway, so---- - -Mr. BALL. You went back to the police station and took some affidavits -from witnesses, didn't you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. That's right, I went on to the station at that time and -took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they -had brought in there because at the time I didn't realize there was -any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit or the one -that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit -and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different -things altogether. So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that -end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the -Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize -some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the -Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the -same one who assassinated the President. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did Captain Fritz instruct you to go out and pick up -the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; this Helen Markham, the witness, was in such a state -of shock she had been unable to view the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see her the first time? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. She was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency -room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city -hall, and I went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed -down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she -told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, I called the -captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time -some of the other officers brought Oswald down. I took here into the -showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Were you and Helen Markham the only two in what you call the -showup room? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No, Captain Fritz and Chief Curry was in there also and -possibly one or two others; I do not recall. - -Mr. BALL. How about your partner, C. W. Brown? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know whether he was there or not. - -Mr. BALL. Any other witnesses? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Now Mr. Graves may have been in there. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any other witnesses in there? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Who picked the men for the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know. - -Mr. BALL. Did you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had nothing to do with that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who the men were in the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. That particular showup they had gotten two of the -officers, I believe, that work in the vice squad. - -Mr. BALL. I have the names of the people in the showup; No. 1 was Bill -Perry; is he a Dallas Police Department officer? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. No. 3 R. L. Clark---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He is an officer also. - -Mr. BALL. Vice squad? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Don Ables is a jail clerk? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked these men? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I do not know who decided that they be in the -showup. Of course, I am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of -the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting -prisoners down there. - -Mr. BALL. Is it unusual to use officers in the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we don't normally do it. - -Mr. BALL. You usually have other prisoners in the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, trustees serving time, or---- - -Mr. BALL. What is your memory as to how these men were dressed? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, I -believe. I don't think there was any coats involved in any of them. - -Mr. BALL. Did any have ties? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. None had ties or hats on. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes. - -Mr. BALL. What questions? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case -because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard -the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, -anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice. - -Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what did Helen Markham say while she was in the showup -room? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, she was very nervous and I do not recall what all -she did say, but she was able to identify Oswald as the one. - -Mr. BALL. What did she tell you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. She said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do -the shooting over there in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a statement from her then? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I took one from her but I do not remember whether--just -when I took it. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after -we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and -talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the -one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the -man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter -there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, -each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the -man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside -and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot -with the gun in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. You also talked to Domingo Benavides? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. D-o-m-i-n-g-o B-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. I would think it -would be spelled differently. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to be Mexican descent but that Benavides -is actually an Italian name, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you talk to him also? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I talked with him but I do not believe we ever took an -affidavit off him that I recall--may have. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the -officer. I remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from -someone who gave them to him, and when I talked to Domingo, he said he -was the one picked them up and give them to the officer. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring any of these men downtown? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask them---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I called later--Ted Callaway--bring the others down; -however, I think the Negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the -only one he brought. - -Mr. BALL. You say you told him to bring the others down? Who did you -tell to bring down? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. The porter and this Domingo. - -Mr. BALL. But he only brought---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Sam Guinyard. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know why Domingo Benavides was never brought down for -the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I think he said he never saw the man actually. I believe -he said later on he did not see the man. - -Mr. BALL. He testified here he saw the man running. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. But he--either that or he told me he could not recognize -him, one or the other. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a showup with Callaway and Guinyard? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I do not recall the time but we did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your -memory? Here is a report that you made, also. [Papers to witness.] - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, at 6:30 p.m. would be right. - -Mr. BALL. 6:30 p.m.? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in the audience side of the showup this time? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. As far as I know there wasn't anyone other than Mr. -Graves and myself, and I am not too sure he was there. I do not recall. - -Mr. BALL. Your notes say that Brown and Dhority were with you. Is that -right? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I do not remember; it could have been. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with the witnesses? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Who was with the witnesses? - -Mr. BALL. What officer was with the witnesses? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, we were with them. - -Mr. BALL. Who talked to them? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the -lineup? - -Mr. BALL. No; I am talking about the witnesses. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Only two witnesses is Callaway and Guinyard and I talked -with them. - -Mr. BALL. You talked with them? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who were the men in the showup this time? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember. - -Mr. BALL. These notes show that Billy Perry was No. 1; R. L. Clark, No. -2; and 4, Don Ables; and No. 2, Oswald. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I know they were on two different showups, so it is quite -possible. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questions of the men in the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I would think I would have been--the same line. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what Ted Callaway said? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Not per se; I know they were able to identify Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. What was the substance of what he said? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall. - -Mr. BALL. You say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because I -don't know what he identified him as. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said he was the man; he identified him as the man he -saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the -Oak Cliff area near his carlot. - -Mr. BALL. What about Sam Guinyard? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Same thing, practically. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take statements from them? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe I took affidavits from them, according to my -notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to -look at a jacket which---- - -Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything -like the jacket? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly -like it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket. - -Mr. BALL. Now then, did you do anything else that day on this -investigation? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone -in the office. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work at what time Saturday morning, November 23, -1963? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. It would be around 8 o'clock, I imagine. - -Mr. BALL. And did you take some statements that day? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Chances are I may have, I do not remember. - -Mr. BALL. Here is---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. It says took one affidavit from R. S. Truly, supervisor -of Texas School Book and the other of employee, Mrs. R. A. Reid. - -Mr. BALL. You are refreshing your memory from a report that you made, -is that correct? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend another showup that day? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we held another showup that day which involved a -cabdriver---- - -Mr. BALL. What's his name? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. We later found out he was near the scene of the shooting -and saw the shooting, also, W. W. Scoggins. We held a showup for him at -2:15 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. Was anyone else with him at that time? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver, -name of William Wayne Whaley [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. Had you talked to him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I had not talked to Whaley; no. - -Mr. BALL. What officer talked to Whaley? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Whaley in the squadcar? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Scoggins in the squadcar? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you first see Whaley and Scoggins? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. They came to the office, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down with them to the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure that I did. I do not recall but I am sure I -must have. - -Mr. BALL. Here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh -your memory [notes to witness]. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. From these notes here it indicates I was there along with -them at that time. - -Mr. BALL. What is your memory? Is your memory different from the notes? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember who else was there, if anyone was. - -Mr. BALL. You know that you were there with Scoggins and Whaley? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the men in the showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall who was in there. I know it says who was -here but I could not tell you. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick those men? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; not at anytime did I have anything to do with picking -the men in any of them. - -Mr. BALL. This was your third showup in the course of your -investigation of the murder of Tippit and the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; the third and the only three I had anything to do -with. - -Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I would have handled the speech of that also; asking them -to say a few words. - -Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. That I do not recall either. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether they had coats on? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed -as alike as possible, the same as each other. - -Mr. BALL. What is your memory of this incident? Were they dressed -anywhere near similar? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, -Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where -they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the -rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had -on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last -one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and -wouldn't be quiet. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt -and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that. I don't know what he -didn't say; he went on all the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course. I asked him if he--if the man that he -remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was -up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was -doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still -knew him. - -Mr. BALL. What did Scoggins say? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said practically the same thing--the man in the -T-shirt was the--or the No. 3 man was the man he had saw do the -shooting. - -Mr. BALL. Who said that? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. That would have been Scoggins. - -Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this -man before? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to have seen him I believe, but I do not -recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand. - -Mr. BALL. Where Scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was -sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the -shooting occurred. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on November 24, on Sunday morning, did you return to -work about the same time, 8 o'clock, or so? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Little before 10, I believe, or something. - -Mr. BALL. And, were you ordered by Captain Fritz to get Oswald? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I don't--I see here it says 9:30--whatever the -official time was, I think it probably was maybe about that time. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to get Oswald? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I had to go to the fourth floor jail. - -Mr. BALL. Did you handcuff him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. In front. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you taking him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into -Captain Fritz's office. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at that meeting in Captain Fritz's office? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I can recall, I believe during that time I was -there there were several people in and out. I believe primarily myself -and Mr. Graves and Dhority and Montgomery were in there most of the -time, I don't know. We were in, probably might have stepped outside the -door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also Mr. -Kelley, Secret Service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. I -cannot recall his name at this time. He should be on here--oh, yes, Mr. -Sorrels, also, and Holmes of the postal department. Now, those people -and Chief Curry came in once or twice. All those people may not have -stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at -some time or other. - -Mr. BALL. Did these various people ask questions of Oswald? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I know Mr. Sorrels did and I know Mr. Kelley did. I do -not recall whether Mr. Holmes asked any questions or not and Captain -Fritz asked him some. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Mr. Sorrels asked him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Remember what Mr. Kelley asked him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I can only remember one question Mr. Kelley asked him -and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the U.S. -Government toward Cuba would be changed since the President has been -assassinated. To my knowledge, that is the only one I can recall. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said "I am filed -on for the President's murder, is that right?" And, Captain Fritz told -him yes, and he told Mr. Kelley, he said "Under the circumstances, I -don't believe that it would be proper." That might not be the words he -used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question -because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than -what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like -when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there -was always a second in command who would take over and he said in -this particular instance it would he Johnson. He said "So far as I -know, Johnson's views and President Kennedy's views are the same", -so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the -U.S. Government toward Cuba. That's about the main--the only one, -because he went into such detail on it, the only one I thought was a -little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason I -remembered it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any question Captain Fritz asked him? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I remember that the captain asked him about the shooting -of the President and the shooting of the officer; I know he did ask him -that and I know Oswald did deny it, both times. - -Mr. BALL. That he had shot President Kennedy and Tippit? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he denied shooting either one. He did say this "If -you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a -cop in the mouth when I was arrested", he said "Yeah, I plead guilty -to that" but he--I do know that he denied the shooting of both the -President and Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. In that meeting did he ask for a lawyer? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I know Captain Fritz asked him if at one time, if--he -handed him a telegram--in fact. I believe it was sent by some attorney, -if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want -him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would -contact him at a later time. I do not recall what lawyer it was. It -seems like some lawyer in the East sent the telegram volunteering his -services to Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. That is there on Sunday morning, the 24th? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. In the course of this meeting which you have been -describing---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. He said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch -with this lawyer in New York City that represented the American Civil -Liberties Union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he -didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with -this man about it. - -Mr. BALL. Can you remember any other questions asked Oswald by Captain -Fritz? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No, not offhand; I would probably remember them if I -heard the questions but I do not remember offhand. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody talk to him about the post office box? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; Mr. Kelley asked him several questions and probably -Mr. Sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in -Shreveport--wherever it was. - -Mr. BALL. New Orleans? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. New Orleans, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Since you mentioned it, I do remember them talking to him -about the New Orleans box and asking him about this other name, this---- - -Mr. BALL. Alek Hidell? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; and he asked him if he knew Alek Hidell; said he -didn't know if he ever heard of the name. He never heard of that and -asked him several questions along that line and then after he had -denied all knowledge of Alek Hidell, Mr. Kelley asked him, said "Well, -isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card -with his name on it in your possession." He kind of grunted, said -"Yes, that's right" and he said "How do you explain that?" And, as best -my knowledge, he said "I don't explain it." - -Mr. BALL. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about -the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in Dallas but I do -not recall. I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his -exact denial was. - -Mr. BALL. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he -denied that he had bought a rifle? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I -would not swear to it. - -Mr. BALL. Was anything said about a revolver? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they asked him something about the revolver, -too, but I do not recall what it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession -at the time of his arrest? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall what the questions was along that line -or even what the answers was. Like I say, I am sure that they did. It -seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the -revolver but there, again. I would not want to say definitely. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat -in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was -arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him -to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups, -what-have-you. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on -Friday, the 22nd of November? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, no; not that I recall. He--I know he had a black -eye. I remember seeing that some time along the way but I do not recall -when I first noticed it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about his black eye? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he -received the black eye? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I remember at one time when they were moving him. -Of course, if you saw television that day, I am sure you saw what men -we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all -were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions -at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye. -He said "A cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some -unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him. - -Mr. BALL. As you would move Oswald through the halls on the third floor -from one room to another---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would -be from our office to the elevator which is some 20 feet. - -Mr. BALL. On those occasions would the hallway he crowded with -reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in -fact, I was plumb up to my chin with those people. - -Mr. STERN. How do you mean? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was disgusted with them. - -Mr. STERN. Would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a -particular place? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of -slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like -up there--about the same situation. - -Mr. BALL. I'm through. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Stern? - -Mr. STERN. There was just no response. You asked them to cooperate with -you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back -but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had -to hold them off physically. Of course, I realize I am not running -the police department but if I had been running it wouldn't have been -nobody up there; like I say, I was fed up. Fact of the business, one -time when I was trying to escort some witness out of there--I don't -recall who it was at this time--but I was trying to get them through -that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and I stopped -and I looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my -legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted. - -Mr. STERN. Was any consideration given to clearing the corridor? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. A lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of -course, I didn't have anything to do with it. - -Mr. STERN. Was it discussed? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I imagine just among the men up there. The officers -working in the bureau probably did. I don't know whether it was -discussed on a higher level or not. I have no knowledge of that. - -Mr. STERN. There were actually television cameras in the corridor? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, yes. - -Mr. STERN. Hand cameras or the large? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. They had the big camera set on a tripod right at the -entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full -view of the entire hallway. - -Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald and the way he handled -himself throughout this period? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Like I say, the only time that I had any connections with -Oswald was this Sunday morning. I never had occasion of hearing him -being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to -my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him -that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with -a lot better education than his formal education indicated. In other -words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the Cuba -deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school -education that he was reported to have had. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be in control of himself? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. In -fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was -enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way. - -Mr. STERN. He engaged in banter with you and the police officials? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question -him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always -had an answer. - -Mr. STERN. How about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from -the interrogations? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I did not indulge in any of that other than the one time -and, of course, if I made any comments to him at that time, I do not -remember what they were. - -Mr. STERN. How about comments he made to you? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I know--I think possibly at one time he--that morning -that I was bringing him down on Sunday morning that he may have asked -me where he was going or if he was going back to Captain Fritz' office -that morning, but aside from that, I do not recall anything else that -he may have said or anything that I may have said to him in the course -of the day. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall any complaints that he registered, any -statements he made about his treatment, or---- - -Mr. LEAVELLE. No. I don't think he made any to us that morning we were -moving him. - -Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telegram that arrived Sunday morning or -that was there Sunday morning about the offer? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I had occasion to see it. I do not recall what it was. I -think it is a matter of record somewhere. - -Mr. STERN. It was there at the Sunday morning interrogation? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; it was there and, in fact, I know the captain and I -talked about it there a minute before I went up and got him, talked -about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. I said "Why -not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it -himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups -at which you were present said that they had seen Oswald on television -before they got to the police headquarters? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I think it would have been impossible for anybody, -any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers. -Now, the others may have, I don't recall, but the others all came down -on the day of the assassination so I don't believe that they would -have, but I know Helen Markham would not have because she was taken -directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she -would not, and I do not believe Mr. Callaway and the Negro porter, Sam -Guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either. - -Mr. STERN. In any event, you do not recall it? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall, but I am not saying it would not have -happened. - -Mr. STERN. That's all I have. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have Officer Leavelle's reports on the -officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. It is marked -"Pages 216, 217, 218, 219, 220." It is a part of the formal report of -the Dallas Police Department concerning the assassination of President -Kennedy and Officer Leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the -shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you -to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature -and it will be written up and forwarded to the Commission without your -signature. How will you prefer? - -Mr. LEAVELLE. I see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out -like I put it down there. - -Mr. BALL. If you have confidence in the reporter you can waive -signature and we will send it on. - -Mr. LEAVELLE. All right. - -Mr. BALL. It is pages 216 through 220 of the formal report which is -included in this Exhibit A. Thank you very much, Mr. Leavelle. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF W. E. BARNES - -The testimony of W. E. Barnes was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 7, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BARNES. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to. - -Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer. - -Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David -Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about -a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been -with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the -past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here -in your city. - -Would you please state your name for the record. - -Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes? - -Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. BARNES. It is. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular department? - -Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the -identification bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes? - -Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Went to school here? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school? - -Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high -school? - -Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went -into the Merchant Marine Service. - -Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine? - -Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946? - -Mr. BARNES. 1947. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since? - -Mr. BARNES. I have been. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty? - -Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to---- - -Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting -of the President, where were you and what were you doing? - -Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental -appointment. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there? - -Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated. - -Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to -stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene? - -Mr. BELIN. You had two men? - -Mr. BARNES. At the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean? - -Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there? - -Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were? - -Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory? - -Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do? - -Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred? - -Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene? - -Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of -Tippit's car for fingerprints. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car? - -Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located? - -Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right -front fender. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the -vehicle for fingerprints? - -Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up -to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might -have placed his hands on there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there? - -Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography? - -Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this -work since August 1, 1956. - -Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb -equipment or not? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you -are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment? - -Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I -think it is necessary. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use? - -Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often -use? - -Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene? - -Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls -that was turned over to me. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings? - -Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene -by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not -sure about that. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that? - -Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it. - -Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe -that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search -section. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the -scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over? - -Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found -other than these two? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up? - -Mr. BARNES. I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out -to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what? - -Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it -up. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen? - -Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up? - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What -approximate location? - -Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there? - -Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle? - -Mr. BARNES. The what? - -Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out -there? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the -immediate vicinity of the car? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What was that? - -Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at -the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought -maybe that might have had some significance on the case. - -I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a -jacket was discarded by the suspect. - -Mr. BELIN. Where would that be? - -Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over. - -Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west? - -Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I -would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map? - -Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, -I will try and get. - -Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford. - -Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was -found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to -10th or Jefferson? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that -separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford. - -Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel? - -Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson? - -Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford. - -Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station -around there at all? - -Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of -station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but -there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket -was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found -just behind it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that -correct? - -Mr. BARNES. I did. - -(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.) - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which -we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the -deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not -the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by -you? - -Mr. BARNES. They were. - -Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture -of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile? - -Mr. BARNES. It was. - -Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene? - -Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40. - -Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon? - -Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures? - -Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards. - -Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that -the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that -the way that you found the car when you got there? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or -document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not? - -Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash -of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their -wanted persons names on. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been -made on this clipboard? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there? - -Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was. - -Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the -clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or -any memorandum paper on the board? - -Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes -Deposition Exhibit A? - -Mr. BARNES. What? - -Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might -be relevant? - -Mr. BARNES. Not that I know. - -Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is -Exhibit B? - -Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and -also blood on the street where Tippit fell. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on -Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit -fell? - -Mr. BARNES. (Circles.) - -Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes -Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried -to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the -car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you -could show us the general area where you found the smears? - -Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.] - -Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the -right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, -and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front -fender near where the headlight is. - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean? - -Mr. BARNES. Dirty. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way -affects your ability to lift fingerprints? - -Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting -a latent print. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints? - -Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found. - -Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been -removed? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think -is relevant? - -Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what -this is, please? - -Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by -Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene -where the squad car was. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking -of any of these pictures by you? - -Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition -Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what -this is? - -Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car. - -Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly -to the south, is that right? - -Mr. BARNES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the -driver's side was up or down? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down. - -Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, -was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state -what this is? - -Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the -front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement -where Tippit fell. - -Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit -fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer? - -Mr. BARNES. It does. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition -Exhibit E that you want to discuss now? - -Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing]. - -Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is -that correct? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of? - -Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also -a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition -Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with -the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask -you to make copies of these. - -Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is -that correct? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos. -Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there -appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that -appear to show that they were examined or identified by you? - -Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of -Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified. - -Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case -hulls, is that correct? - -Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber. - -Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can -identify it that way? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, -did you identify out there? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain -Doughty received the third. - -Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you -put this identification mark on the inside of? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark? - -Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen. - -Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75? - -Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in -there too. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the -slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the -pistol? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there -anything else that you did out at the crime scene? - -Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and -Q-75? - -Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over -to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that -took them. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant -with regard to your work at the Tippit scene? - -Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there? - -Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got -through. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that? - -Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day? - -Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation -of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any -other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time -of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BARNES. I did. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you do those? - -Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I -finished with the Tippit car pictures. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my -question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you -took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. -Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton? - -Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the -spot where you say this jacket was found? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th -and Patton and the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found. - -Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the -person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the -theatre? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre? - -Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember? - -Mr. BARNES. The lobby and the place where the arrest was made. - -Mr. BELIN. It was after that that you then went to investigate that -major automobile accident? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now after you investigated or took pictures at this major -automobile accident, then what did you do? - -Mr. BARNES. I returned to the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you returned to the city hall? - -Mr. BARNES. We started working out the evidence and developing -negatives of all the photos that were taken at the Kennedy -assassination site and also at the Tippit site. - -Mr. BELIN. Who were you working with at that time? - -Mr. BARNES. We had just about all the manpower of the crime scene -search section working. - -Lt. J. C. Day, myself, Detective R. L. Studebaker, Detective J. B. -Hicks, and Detective R. W. Livingston. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know about what time of the day you were doing this? - -Mr. BARNES. We started on it, I would say, roughly after I returned to -the city hall. It was getting close to 4 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was this work done? - -Mr. BARNES. In the crime scene search section of the identification -bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. On what floor is that? - -Mr. BARNES. It is on the fourth floor of the city hall. - -Mr. BELIN. On the fourth floor, were there any people other than police -personnel? - -Mr. BARNES. Not where we were; no. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got there, did you see what the situation was on -the third floor? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; we could. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the situation on the third floor? - -Mr. BARNES. Turmoil of news media, photographers. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by turmoil? - -Mr. BARNES. Well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where -they could get a shot. - -Mr. BELIN. By a shot, you mean a picture? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; a photo. Any photos they might get for the newspapers. - -In case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. I -presume that is what they were there for. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald on the third floor at the time? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they have wires coming through the windows for -television cameras, or not? - -Mr. BARNES. There was wires running all over the city hall; cables. - -Mr. BELIN. Cables? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What about stands for lights, were they there, too? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right, they come up with lights and also TV cameras -to cover. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say city hall, really the third floor that we are -talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that -correct? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, do you have any estimate of the number of -newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be a guess. I wouldn't want to venture to guess, -because it would be just strictly guesswork. - -Mr. BELIN. More than 20? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. More than 50? - -Mr. BARNES. I am not saying. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, you were working on the fourth -floor? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? - -Mr. BARNES. Later we went to the third floor, to the office of Captain -Fritz. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you go to Captain Fritz' office for? - -Mr. BARNES. To make a paraffin test of Lee Harvey Oswald's hand. - -Mr. BELIN. About when would this have been, approximately, if you know? - -Mr. BARNES. I tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was -after I returned to the city hall, and after 6 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime after 6 o'clock? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz call you up and tell you to come down and -make the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. He didn't talk to me. I was advised to go to that office to -help make the paraffin test. - -Mr. BELIN. By your supervisor? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? - -Mr. BARNES. Lt. J. C. Day. - -Mr. BELIN. Now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a -paraffin test, to go to an office such as Captain Fritz' office to do -it? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What would the usual procedure be? - -Mr. BARNES. If he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be to bring them up to the fourth floor? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. This would have necessitated, I would assume, moving the -prisoner from Captain Fritz' office through the hallway up to the -fourth floor? - -Mr. BARNES. It would. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did -anyone tell you why? - -Mr. BARNES. Well---- - -Mr. BELIN. That is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin -test down in Captain Fritz' office rather than in your laboratory? - -Mr. BARNES. No, sir; nobody said anything to me about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as -taking the prisoner up to your office from Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; you would have to take him through the throng of -newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether this might have presented a -security problem in any way? - -Mr. BARNES. It would. - -Mr. BELIN. What equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. I took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which -consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this your permanent equipment or your portable -equipment? When I say your permanent, I mean your inplace equipment? - -Mr. BARNES. It is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working -under makeshift conditions. - -Mr. BELIN. When you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"---- - -Mr. BARNES. Just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on. -We have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section -which makes it handier to work with. - -Mr. BELIN. Would the quality of the test be the same? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I think so. The quality would be the same, just takes -a little more time and inconvenience. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got down there, what did you do and see? First of -all, who was in the room? - -Mr. BARNES. Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that L-e-a-v-e-l-l-e? - -Mr. BARNES. Right. And Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any discussion, or did you hear Lee Harvey -Oswald say anything or anyone say anything to Lee Harvey Oswald while -you were there? - -Mr. BARNES. No conversation. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. BARNES. We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and -while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a -paraffin cast of his hand. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say to that? - -Mr. BARNES. It was okay with him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about -the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. None other than he stated to me, "What are you trying to -do, prove that I fired a gun?" - -And I said, "I am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. We have -the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the -city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it." - -Mr. BELIN. What is the purpose of a paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your -hands. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin -tests? - -Mr. BARNES. Since 1956. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the procedure by which you determine whether or not -there are any nitrates on one's hand? - -Mr. BARNES. The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their -personnel. - -Mr. BELIN. Do they analyze the wax? - -Mr. BARNES. They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after the -casts are made. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test -on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my -hands? - -Mr. BARNES. It wouldn't be hot wax. It would have to be at a degree -where it would be melted. Take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it -into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall, -and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and -back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick. - -Then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for -reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to -reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of -paraffin. In fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to -round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin -from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down -each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove. - -Mr. BELIN. You would make two cuts then, one along the side of the -little finger and one along the side of the thumb? - -Mr. BARNES. Well, really it is a =V=-cut on the thumb and forefinger, -and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger. - -Mr. BELIN. On the side of the palm of the hand? - -Mr. BARNES. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you done any reading as to what this test shows and -what its limitations are at all? - -Mr. BARNES. Well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated -paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to -be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there. - -This paraffin that you place on the hand--I will rephrase this a little -bit. - -When you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on -your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove -the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the -hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the -paraffin. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you say nitrates, I believe you used the word -"residue"? - -Mr. BARNES. Powder residue and nitrates. - -Mr. BELIN. Is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue? - -Mr. BARNES. That is what they call the dermal nitrate test, I believe -is the correct name that they give it. - -Mr. BELIN. Does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of -nitrate compound? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. If I were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate -on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. It should, unless it is awful tight. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by "awful tight"? - -Mr. BARNES. You could have an automatic which very easily could keep -you from having nitrate on your hands. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let's assume that we were taking a .38 caliber pistol. -You have seen the pistol which Lee Harvey Oswald had in his possession -at the time he was apprehended. - -Let's assume I were firing that pistol. Would it leave some residue on -my hand? - -Mr. BARNES. It should. - -Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were to wash my hands between the time I fired it -and the time you took the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. It would hurt the test. - -Mr. BELIN. It would cut down the test? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now if I were firing it, would it necessarily show on both -hands? Suppose I were right-handed? - -Mr. BARNES. Depends on the location of your left hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, generally from your experience, is there any -particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he -is firing a pistol? - -Mr. BARNES. Police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the -pistol handle. - -Mr. BELIN. As an element of controlling it? - -Mr. BARNES. As an element of controlling, and also an element which, if -you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left -hand to take the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. If you keep it near then, I assume that you would get the -nitrate on the other hand, too, or not? - -Mr. BARNES. Very likely that you would. - -Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge -case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where -the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my -hand? - -Mr. BARNES. It is possible. - -Mr. BELIN. Suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find -no nitrate deposits at all. Would you say that this conclusively shows -that I did not fire a pistol? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, does it conclusively show I had not fired a pistol -within the last 6 or 8 or 10 hours? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. BARNES. Well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it were a .38 caliber pistol? - -Mr. BARNES. Then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands -or whether you had had gloves on. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose I were to tell you I didn't have gloves on. - -Mr. BARNES. Had you washed your hands? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, would this make much of a difference? - -Mr. BARNES. Washing your hands would make a difference. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing -a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or -semiautomatic. Would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands -that a paraffin test would show? - -Mr. BARNES. Chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a -revolver. - -Mr. BELIN. Why? - -Mr. BARNES. Because your chamber is enclosed. - -Mr. BELIN. What difference does that make? - -Mr. BARNES. The powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the -cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a -revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all -the way around. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a -difference about letting the gas or residue escape? - -Mr. BARNES. No; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel. -It is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. There is -no pressure there. - -Mr. BELIN. What you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the -time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of -this residue? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. If you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's -hands, and by positive, I mean it would show the presence of nitrate, -would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the -person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a .38 caliber -revolver, or a bolt-action rifle? - -I mean a nonautomatic revolver? - -Mr. BARNES. Let me get your question to see if I am correct. If there -were nitrates present? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BARNES. In my own mind would I come to the conclusion that it would -probably come from a revolver? Rather than a rifle? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. Which -would be more likely? - -Mr. BARNES. The revolver would be more likely. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands. -Do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; we do. - -Mr. BELIN. When you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any -other part of the body other than the hands? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. In this case, did you take it of any other portion of the -body other than the hands? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What other portion of the body did you take it of? - -Mr. BARNES. The right side of his cheek and face. - -Mr. BELIN. The right side of Lee Harvey Oswald's cheek and face? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Who directed you to take it there? - -Mr. BARNES. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there? - -Mr. BARNES. I didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. I was ordered -to take it from him, and I took it because I had the order to take the -test. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests? - -Mr. BARNES. Since 1956. - -Mr. BELIN. Roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an -average? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. If I hit it lucky, I won't make -too many. If it hits on some other man's duty. It would be hard to say -how many I have made over a period of time. I can say that I have made -many. - -Mr. BELIN. Over these years, do you think you have made as many as 100? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. I am not going to go into any -actual figures because it would be guesswork. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. Of the paraffin tests that you -have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks? - -Mr. BARNES. One. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BARNES. It was. - -Mr. BELIN. Other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of -anyone's cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you might not have in any other -case? - -Mr. BARNES. It has never been requested of me before. - -Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information about the science of -paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or -not a common practice to make it of one cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. It is not a common practice. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you -can think of or know of? - -Mr. BARNES. Firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, I would say -the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue -wouldn't reach his cheek? - -Mr. BELIN. What about a rifle? - -Mr. BARNES. Firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel -metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before? - -Mr. BARNES. Many times. - -Mr. BELIN. How close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be -looking through the sight of the gun. - -Mr. BARNES. Be several inches to the rear of the chamber. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all? - -Mr. BARNES. It sure would. - -Mr. BELIN. What about telescopic sights? Would that push your face back -further or not? - -Mr. BARNES. Push it even further back. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have an effect on the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. The further you get from the chamber, the less possibility -of getting powder residue on it would be. - -Mr. BELIN. When you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also -paint it on with this brush that you are talking about? - -Mr. BARNES. I did. - -Mr. BELIN. To about a quarter of an inch thickness? - -Mr. BARNES. Not quite that much. - -Mr. BELIN. When you put the gauze on? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you put some more paraffin on? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you cool it with water, or let it -naturally harden by room temperature? - -Mr. BARNES. Nature cools it from room temperature. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you removed it from the cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with these paraffin tests after you made -them? - -Mr. BARNES. I placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BARNES. I walked out of Captain Fritz' office, and I had a couple -of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that -I could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the -fourth floor, the ID bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. The news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at -that time? - -Mr. BARNES. I would say it was pretty well jammed. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time of the night was this? - -Mr. BARNES. Approximately 9 o'clock, I would say, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald say anything to you as you were -removing these casts, that you remember? - -Mr. BARNES. Very little, other than what I repeated to you before, that -he knew what I was trying to do, and that I was wasting my time, that -he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald leave Captain Fritz' office at that -time or did he stay there? - -Mr. BARNES. I didn't go back, I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. BELIN. He didn't come out with you, did he? - -Mr. BARNES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the -people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office? -Questions or remarks or what have you? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did they say? - -Mr. BARNES. They kept storming questions at me, "What have you got in -that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media -to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?" - -Mr. BELIN. Would this just come from one person? - -Mr. BARNES. All of them. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many of them were there at that time? - -Mr. BARNES. They had the hallways blocked. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you reply to them at all or not? - -Mr. BARNES. I didn't answer. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that -correct? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. BARNES. I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our -locked evidence room. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did they go after that? - -Mr. BARNES. They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that city-county laboratory? - -Mr. BARNES. At Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when they went there? - -Mr. BARNES. The following morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you get the results from this analysis at all? - -Mr. BARNES. The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn't get the -results. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what these results were? - -Mr. BARNES. I understand--I haven't seen them personally--but I -understand they are positive, the ones of his hands. - -Mr. BELIN. By positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates? - -Mr. BARNES. They showed the presence of nitrates. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. The one of his cheek was negative. - -Mr. BELIN. Were any conclusions made because of either the positive -results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test -of the cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. In my own mind, I didn't expect any positive report from -the cheek to start with. But to cut down criticism and to satisfy the -public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well, -we did it for possibly any future--I don't know how to word it--any -complaints that might come later on. - -Mr. BELIN. By complaints, you mean people that might---- - -Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on -something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done -the best that we knew how. - -Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results? - -Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it. - -From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in -shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle -has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you -fired a rifle? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I have not. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek -after that person fired a rifle? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin -test I ever made of a cheek. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test? -Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a -rifle by making a cast of the cheek? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion -are your own personal reasons? - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed -chamber, is that it? - -Mr. BARNES. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under -pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a -shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad -pressure? - -Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel. -There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot -is fired. - -Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the -trigger, is the back of the chamber open then? - -Mr. BARNES. It is open. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us -with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you -can think of, whether or not I have asked it? - -Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything. - -Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know. - -Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common. - -Mr. BARNES. Still live there. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other -evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin -that you made? - -Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you do this? - -Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am -sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test. - -Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards? - -Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when -we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just -what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation---- - -Mr. BARNES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or -did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here? - -Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no -one. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print? - -Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison -purposes. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts? - -Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered -the paraffin tests upstairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print -in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory? - -Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them -coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald -wasn't brought up to your identification bureau? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What? - -Mr. BARNES. Security. - -Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall? - -Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee -Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down -the hallway to Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all -kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much -longer is it going to take, and what have you proved. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain -Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain -Fritz' office when you came back? - -Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective -Dhority and Detective Leavelle. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present? - -Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time? - -Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints -of his hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that? - -Mr. BARNES. Cooperative. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the -taking of any palm prints? - -Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or -not? - -Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint -card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's -signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he -wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney -when you took the paraffin test? - -Mr. BARNES. None to me. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the -fingerprint card? - -Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take -fingerprints? - -Mr. BARNES. We took both. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that? - -Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then -we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place -the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint -card. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before? - -Mr. BARNES. Many times. - -Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as -to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a -person? - -Mr. BARNES. Just as good as fingerprints The only thing that I could -add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where -with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go -look them up. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can offer with reference -to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer -Tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests -that you took? - -Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of right now, other than printing -pictures of both killings. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Lee Oswald said other -than the fact he would not sign his name to the card? - -Mr. BARNES. He had very little to say. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have -asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation -here? - -Mr. BARNES. Not that I can think of at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Now were you on duty on Sunday morning, November 24? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I was not. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any general comment among the police officers, -what I call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the -police headquarters building during this period of time? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; we discussed it. - -Mr. BELIN. Without mentioning any names which might embarrass any -individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the -general nature or tenor of that discussion? - -Mr. BARNES. Disgusted. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; there were. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the -press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police -department? - -Mr. BARNES. It would be just like you carrying on your work in your -office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as -that is concerned. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there people other than newspapermen generally in the -police headquarters? - -Mr. BARNES. It is hard to tell just who was who. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you were not there at the time of the shooting of Lee -Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, were you? - -Mr. BARNES. No; I was not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the television showing of the film that ran -during the--during that time? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. You have had some experience, you said earlier, as a -photographer, I believe, is that correct? - -Mr. BARNES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light -such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the -fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the -ability of officers protecting Lee Harvey Oswald to discern movements -of people? - -Mr. BARNES. Very much. - -Mr. BELIN. In what way? - -Mr. BARNES. Blinding them. The flash from the many cameras that were -present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your TV -cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding -any prisoner. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of with reference to -the security matters of Lee Harvey Oswald that might be relevant here -other than your statements about the press and the problems of light? - -Mr. BARNES. Other than the movement of him with the throngs of press -men, which the security I thought was very good. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of right now? - -Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of at this time. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add in this -deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant? - -Mr. BARNES. I think this pretty well covers it. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in -coming down here, sergeant. - -Mr. BARNES. I am glad to come. Hate to come under these circumstances. - -Mr. BELIN. We hate to be here under these circumstances. It is not a -pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. All -right, sir. - -I forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your -deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the -court reporter send it to us in Washington. - -Mr. BARNES. I believe I will come back and let her show it to me, and I -will sign it then. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF J. B. HICKS - -The testimony of J. B. Hicks was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. -Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. - -(Witness complying.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. HICKS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, and your address? - -Mr. HICKS. J. B. Hicks, 4318 Matilda, Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HICKS. I am with the police department, city of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. You are with the special section of the department? - -Mr. HICKS. The identification bureau; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the identification bureau? - -Mr. HICKS. Let's see, about, a little over 7 years now. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me about yourself--where you were born. - -Mr. HICKS. I was born in Irving, Tex., which is a suburb out here of -Dallas, September 29, 1918. - -Mr. BALL. What was your education? - -Mr. HICKS. I finished high school, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HICKS. Then--you mean where I went to work and from there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. HICKS. I worked a short while for Sanger Bros., I believe 3 or 4 -months or so, then I was employed by Higgenbotham-Bailey Logan Co. -which is a wholesale company here in Dallas; from there I went to work -with the police department where I have been for a little over 22 years -now. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do with the crime lab? - -Mr. HICKS. I do the usual, oh, photography work, fingerprint -comparisons, darkroom work and anything that might come under the crime -lab; the crime scene, search duties. - -Mr. BALL. You work under Lieutenant Day? - -Mr. HICKS. I work under Lieutenant Day; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I was off duty that day. - -Mr. BALL. But you were called back to duty? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day? - -Mr. HICKS. I had--my wife, I believe it was called me from her work. -She had heard of the happening and knowing that I was off, of course, -she figured I would be called, so when she called me, I called in to -Lieutenant Knight, who is also in the identification bureau, and told -him that I was getting ready and if they needed me to report, to call -me and tell me where to go to, and so he did. Oh, I don't know exactly -how long it had taken place and the exact time that he did call me. The -time right there, I can't recall. I know I did get to work somewhere -around 3. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work, at the crime lab? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; they told me to report directly to Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down there? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you went down there what did you find? - -Mr. HICKS. Lieutenant Day--well, first I saw Chief Lumpkin, who told -me Lieutenant Day was there in the building and to report to him on -the sixth floor, I believe it was and he and Detective Studebaker, I -believe it was were the two that were still on that particular floor. - -Mr. BALL. Day and Studebaker? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do some work with them? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes; there was--well, no. Lieutenant Day was dusting several -items around there for fingerprints at the time and Mr. Studebaker -had taken some pictures and was still taking a few others. I assisted -him in moving the equipment back and forth and I don't know, I don't -believe I actually took any of the pictures upstairs; however, I was -there when some of them were taken. - -Mr. BALL. There were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor, -weren't there? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes; I am not sure; I believe they had already been picked -up and removed when I arrived. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked them up? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't know off hand. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later see them in your laboratory? - -Mr. HICKS. I believe I saw one of the particular ones there that night. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine it? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. I think Lieutenant Day had all of them. - -Mr. BALL. Do you do ballistics work in your laboratory? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any -of the guns there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do any identification work on either the -assassination of President Kennedy or the investigation of Tippit's -murder? - -Mr. HICKS. Do you mean as far as fingerprints? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; and things of that sort. - -Mr. HICKS. Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him -that night some time. I do not recall. - -Mr. BALL. 9 o'clock or so? - -Mr. HICKS. It was some time in that area. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you took the prints? - -Mr. HICKS. I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made -those on an inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people -without the black ink that they make for the records. - -Mr. BALL. What else did you do there? - -Mr. HICKS. I was one of the two who made the paraffin cast on Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. You and who else? - -Mr. HICKS. Sergeant Barnes. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever done that before, the paraffin cast? - -Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as -the making of them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you test the paraffin cast; did you make any test on it? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which -Lieutenant Alexander, I believe is in charge there. - -Mr. BALL. But you did not do it yourself? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How -accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a -firearm previously? - -Mr. HICKS. My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact -conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything -containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort. - -Mr. BALL. Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a -rifle has been fired? - -Mr. HICKS. That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a -paraffin test on a person's face. - -Mr. BALL. You never made one before? - -Mr. HICKS. Never before. - -Mr. BALL. The other tests were always on the hands? - -Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason for that? - -Mr. HICKS. I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where -anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On -other occasions they were only interested in the hand. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation? - -Mr. HICKS. I don't recall anything outstanding that I did in the -investigation further there. Now, I know we were all pretty well busy -there until about 2 or 2:30 in the morning but most of it was, I would -imagine regular officework and just back and forth if someone had -asked did we get a picture of this and picture of that; well, I can't -recall any other particular item that I might have done. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present when Oswald was arraigned in the -identification bureau? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I left just a few minutes before that, I understand. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave; do you know? - -Mr. HICKS. I left it was shortly after 2. I don't know the exact time, -maybe 2:15. - -Mr. BALL. You think he was arraigned after you left? - -Mr. HICKS. I am rather certain that he was because I believe I would -have known about it had he been arraigned before I left because there -is only one door in our office to go out and had any other group been -there, I would have noticed it, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald any? - -Mr. HICKS. I only asked him his name when I made his fingerprints and I -did not question him or go to any details on talking to him. - -Mr. BALL. You were not present at any showups of Oswald? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any fingerprint study in this case or palmprint -study? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir--any comparisons to the prints that we had? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. You did not compare the prints you took of Oswald with -any specimen that might have been taken from the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken -from the Texas School Book Depository building? - -Mr. HICKS. Paper bag? - -Mr. BALL. Paper bag. - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken -bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up. - -Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; -did you ever see it? - -Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it. - -Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks. - -Mr. HICKS. All right. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for signature if -you want, or you can waive signature; which do you prefer? - -Mr. HICKS. Well, when would I have to come back to sign this? - -Mr. BALL. Probably next week sometime. - -Mr. HICKS. Well, that will be all right. - -Mr. BALL. Suit yourself, either way. If you want to waive signature -it's all right with us or if you want to come back. - -Mr. HICKS. I will come back. - -Mr. BALL. All right, she will notify you. Thanks very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES - -The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 4 p.m., on April 2, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HOLMES. I do, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Holmes? - -Mr. HOLMES. 1711 McManus, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HOLMES. Postal inspector. - -Mr. BELIN. For the U.S. Post Office Department? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. HOLMES. I am 57. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your educational background? Did you go to high -school here? - -Mr. HOLMES. I graduated from high school in Kansas City, and went -2 years to William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo., and went almost -through my third year in Kansas City. Went to dental college in Kansas -City. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HOLMES. Well, all that time I was working in the post office as a -clerk, and about that time the war broke out and I went into the Postal -Inspection Service in April 1942, and have been a postal inspector ever -since. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you been in Dallas ever since then? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; I came here July 1, 1948. I have been here ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That -is the day of the assassination? - -Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal -annex building, located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets, -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Houston and Commerce Streets in Dallas. Now, where is -Commerce with relation to Elm? - -Mr. HOLMES. Commerce, Main, Elm--two blocks. - -Mr. BELIN. So Commerce would be two blocks south of Elm? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. On what corner is your building? - -Mr. HOLMES. It is on the northeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. The northeast corner? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; well, now, wait a minute. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean the building itself. - -Mr. HOLMES. This is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass, -comes down like this, and this is Elm, and this is Main, and this is -Commerce, and my building is right here. Right here is the School Book. - -Mr. BELIN. This is north? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; that is "cattywampus." This would be the southwest -corner. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You have now corrected your testimony by drawing -a diagram. What corner is this? - -Mr. HOLMES. Southwest. - -Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building is your office where you were -sitting? - -Mr. HOLMES. On the north side. - -Mr. BELIN. From your office looking north, what building would you see? - -Mr. HOLMES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. And I am on the -fifth floor of my building. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was -coming down Main Street? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the motorcade turn from Main onto Houston? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. What direction did it turn on Houston? - -Mr. HOLMES. It turned north on Houston to Elm, and then turned left on -Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. To go down to the triple underpass? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if -you have any estimate on it? - -Mr. HOLMES. I would say 15 miles an hour. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you describe what you saw and heard then? - -Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting -on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor -Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the -middle seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument? - -Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7-1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were -acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not -standing up. This is a short block. - -Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm? - -Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the -motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on -Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple -underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard -what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that -there were three of them. - -I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the -time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging -somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but -I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the dust? - -Mr. HOLMES. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one -of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that -elapsed between each of the three sounds? - -Mr. HOLMES. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. -Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or -something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than -20 seconds? - -Mr. HOLMES. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and -kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to -that. I have tried to recall it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or -between the second and third? - -Mr. HOLMES. I couldn't tell you that. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see after that? - -Mr. HOLMES. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as -this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to -a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the -turtleback of this Presidential car and was almost off of the back of -the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and I -never--I got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him -on the bumper. - -I got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back -in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. It was so quick -that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. There was -several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over -this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the Secret -Service man or the Secret Service man was trying to get her back in the -car, and this was our impression. - -Policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and -with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. I saw many people -down on the ground, and I have one particular couple in mind that I had -watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman -down. I remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a -gun away from her, or something, and by that time I decided maybe there -was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers. - -He had her down on the ground. But then it later developed that he was -trying to protect her from the shots. But then I didn't know that at -the time. And I did watch her as they got up. Then different people hid -around behind pillars in this arbor. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? - -Mr. HOLMES. Then just people went from every direction hunting around -the railroad yard and among the cars parked in the area. I saw a -policeman rushing into the School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this a motorcycle policemen? - -Mr. HOLMES. I did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or -two or three--with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms -rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. And I thought maybe they -might have been shooting to frighten the people. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the noise sound like it came from? - -Mr. HOLMES. It reverberated among the buildings and I couldn't tell -you. It sounded like from the crowd over there. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else happen that afternoon that you think is -important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is -concerned? - -Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with -my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad -tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they -were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole -area. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes. - -Now, what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the -assassination or the investigation? - -Mr. HOLMES. I never quit. I didn't get to bed for 2 days. - -Mr. BELIN. Tell us what you did that you feel might be important that -we should record here. - -Mr. HOLMES. Of course I was in contact with the chief inspector in -Washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and I remember once -he called and he said, "Well, now, could the shots have come from the -terminal annex building. Has your office been shaken out, the annex." -Of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature -there of any importance. I was doing all I could to help other agencies. - -One of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the -radio reports came in about the apprehension of Lee Oswald following -the shooting of Officer Tippit, and said, "I think you ought to know, -Mr. Holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a Lee Oswald recently, -and it is box number so-and-so". - -That was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal -annex. That box is No. 6225. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked as Holmes Deposition -Exhibit No. 1. I will ask you to state what this is. - -Mr. HOLMES. That is a photo copy of the original box rental application -completed by Lee H. Oswald covering box No. 6225, which he completed on -November the 1st, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice over here in--a notation on the side 11-22-63, with -some initials on it. Do you know what that is? - -Mr. HOLMES. Those are my initials and they indicate that I took the -original box application from the post office records on that date. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it? - -Mr. HOLMES. I turned it over to an FBI agent at a later date. I don't -know when. - -Mr. BELIN. Did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing -with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't -identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could -not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because -I have talked to him about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or -the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American -Civil Liberties Union," is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through -there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the -residential address when he rented the box. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of -November 1, 1963? - -Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this -thing out himself. - -Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp, -that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box -number is written in as "6225". - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box -than there is for anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on -December 31. - -Mr. BELIN. What year? - -Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any -surveillance on it? - -Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about -well into Sunday, I think, 3 days. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records, -for the box? - -Mr. HOLMES. One. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When was that? - -Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department? - -Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had -taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have -numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is -this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers, -and it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key -number? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition -Exhibit 1 here? - -Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in -that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. -No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the -"Daily Worker," now. - -Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American -newspaper? - -Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a -couple of Russian newspapers came there. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in -Russia. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this -application that you care to talk about? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with -pertaining to the assassination? - -Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning---- - -Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23? - -Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex, -and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent -had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post -office money order. - -He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington, -but would have to know the number of the post office money order. - -So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number. - -So I knew about the post office money order. They said that -Oswald--they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the -information that, I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI -after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information -that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make -and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, -that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information -that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had -been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from -Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I -immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records -with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to -buy this gun. - -I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, -Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute, -let's back up. - -I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on -outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that -I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did. - -Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine? - -Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963? - -Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack. - -Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this -magazine? Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2. - -Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes -Deposition Exhibit 2." - -Was that the page you tore out? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns -identified on that page. - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I see one circled in red, is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red? - -Mr. HOLMES. I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope -on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And -underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. -Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready -for shooting. Turned-down bolt 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is -marked "$12.78." - -Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95. - -Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And -underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x-3/4" -diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is -a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. It is marked "Klein's -Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois," -then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash -customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise -specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order ... $1.50 -on shotgun and rifles." - -Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for -putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the -$19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, -and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for -postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45. - -I thought you said the FBI said $21.95? - -Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been -looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago -office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting -Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun -in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order. - -Mr. BELIN. So what happened? - -Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of -Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was -$21.95--$21.45--excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received -this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for -March 20. - -So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this -money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the -number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one. - -I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th -because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have -gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within -10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that -amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order -in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as -this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had -been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. To whom? - -Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is -purchased--purchasing---- - -Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get---- - -Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number -there. When was that? - -Mr. HOLMES. Just now? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office -before he went to New Orleans? - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State? - -Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing -information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this -inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you -when I first realized he had this box. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked "Holmes Deposition Exhibit -3," and ask you to state what that is? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is a photostatic copy of the original box rental -application covering the rental of box 2915, at the main post office -in Dallas, Tex., which shows that it was completed on October the -9th, 1962. The applicants name was Lee H. Oswald, home address, 3519 -Fairmore Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Signed Lee H. Oswald. It shows that the -box was closed on May 14, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, it is stamped date box opened, October 9, 1962. And -that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at -the bottom of it. - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you found this postal money order and then -what did you do? - -Mr. HOLMES. Off the record, let me ask you something. I questioned him -about this box and all the angles with it during this interview. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. - -Mr. HOLMES. I didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called -Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money -order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief -inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at -Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out -this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out -the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special -conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington -now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I -asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been -issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the -correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct -money order or not. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you know about the use of the name A. J. Hidell? - -Mr. HOLMES. When the box was opened in the name of Lee H. Oswald. -Because for two reasons. I--one is, when he rented the post office box -in New Orleans, he used the name of A. J. Hidell as one of the persons -entitled to receive mail in that box. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time did you know about that? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what else? - -Mr. HOLMES. In his billfold the police had found a draft registration -card in the name of A. J. Hidell on his person at the time of his -arrest, and I had seen it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else now about this money order? Do you have a -record of the number of the money order? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what was the next thing you did in connection -with the investigation of the assassination? - -Mr. HOLMES. Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of -addresses as bits of information to the FBI and the Secret Service, and -sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about Sunday morning about -9:20---- - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon me a second. (Discussion off the record.) Anything -else now, Mr Holmes? - -Mr. HOLMES. I might cover the record of his rental of the post office -box in New Orleans. Do you want me to go into that? - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. HOLMES. The box rental records at New Orleans show that on June the -3d, 1963, post office box 30061 was rented to L. H. Oswald. Let me see -there. Some of my information comes at times I see 30061 and at times I -see 30016. I had it two places. One is a written memorandum on that new -setup, and the other is what I took over the phone, and both of them -show 61. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. HOLMES. I think I got a copy. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all right, you can go ahead. - -Mr. HOLMES. This is at the Lafayette Square Station in New Orleans. At -that time he showed his home address as 657 French Street, New Orleans. -On this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to -also receive mail in the box, Marina Oswald, and A. J. Hidell. This box -was closed on September 26, 1963, with instructions to forward mail -addressed to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. - -At the time this information was checked out in New Orleans by Postal -Inspector Joe Zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "The Militant," -were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. But there was -a slipup. I hate to admit that. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. I presume my next part in connection with this was when I -joined the interrogation period of Oswald on Sunday morning of November -24 at about 9:30 a.m. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the -occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be -there? - -Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous -occasions during this 2-1/2-day period. - -On this morning I had no appointment. I actually started to church with -my wife. I got to church and I said, "You get out, I am going down and -see if I can do something for Captain Fritz. I imagine he is as sleepy -as I am." - -So I drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as -I did, Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready -to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the -county jail. Would you like to join us?" - -I said "I would." - -We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present -were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V. -Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley, -inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three -detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding -Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have -a written memorandum there of that interview? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make -your written memorandum? - -Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your -recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people -there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by -section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on -Sunday morning? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on -that? I wonder perhaps what we might do is, I am going to see if I have -a copy of this, and if I can, to attach just as a--is this an extra -copy that you have here? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I guess you can. Let me tear that top off. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to mark this as "Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. -4." This is a memorandum of your interview? - -Mr. HOLMES. That I dictated on December 17, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. That is about 4 weeks after the interview took place; is -that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview? - -Mr. HOLMES. I had a few notes. I had no reason for such a statement -except that about that time the FBI asked me--they learned that I -had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if I would object to -giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my -statement. Part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice--well, you might just, without even looking at -the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went -on there. - -Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality to the interrogation. One man would -question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of -thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal -questioning or interrogation. - -Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he -wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that -he didn't want to answer. - -And those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything -that pertained with the assassination of the President or the shooting -of Officer Tippit. He flatly denied any knowledge of either. - -He was not particularly obnoxious. He seemed to be intelligent. He -seemed to be clearminded. He seemed to have a good memory, because in -questioning him about the boxes, which I had original applications -in front of me, he was pretty accurate. He knew box numbers and he -answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as -verified by the box rental applications that I had in front of me. - -Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him? - -Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair -of trousers. - -Mr. BELIN. What color trousers? - -Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. What color shirt? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not -outstanding. I don't know what color actually he had on. I do know, I -can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that. - -Mr. BELIN. He put on a black sweater? - -Mr. HOLMES. Toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember Captain Fritz showing a map, showing -Oswald a map of the city of Dallas which had been recovered from his -room? - -Mr. HOLMES. He didn't show the map. He only mentioned the map and asked -him about a certain map that had markings on it, and Oswald said, -"Well, I presume you have reference to a map that I had in my room that -had some X's on it." - -And, he said, "Well, tell us about that one. Why were the X's on there? -What did that designate?" - -And he said that, "I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. -I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. And I had my -applications in with Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me -names and addresses of places that had openings like I might could -fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I -might could get. I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on -this map so that I could plan my itinerary around with less walking, -and each one of those represented a place where I went and interviewed -for a job." - -And he said, "You can check each one of them out if you want to." - -Then Captain Fritz mentioned the X at the intersection of Elm and -Houston. - -Well, he said, "That is the location of the Texas School Depository and -I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got a job there." He -said, "That is all the map amounts to." - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about that aspect of the -interrogation? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember Inspector Kelley asking Oswald about his -religious views? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Someone, and I don't recall who, asked the first -question on that, but you got that Lenin business in there. - -Mr. BELIN. I am deliberately asking you these questions before we get -to your memorandum, and I am just trying to get your memory first. - -Mr. HOLMES. All right. Someone asked him about what his beliefs were, -and he said, "Well," about him being a Communist something. Someone -referred to his communism, and he said, "I am not a Communist. I am a -Marxist." And they said, what is the difference between Communist and -Marxist, and he said, "Well, a Communist is a Lenin Marxist, and I am a -true Karl Marxist." - -So, this Secret Service inspector asked, "What religion are you?" In -other words, I mean, "What faith are you, as far as religion?" And he -said, "I have no faith." And then he said, "I suppose you mean the -Bible." - -"Yes, that is right." - -"Well," he said, "I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but -not very interesting. But, as a matter of fact, I am a student of -philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or -intelligent philosophy. I don't think much of it," he said. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone there ask him if Cuba would be better off since -the President was assassinated? Do you remember anything about that? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall a question on that. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anyone asking him a question about the -rifle, or there was a picture of Oswald holding a rifle. Do you -remember anything about that? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you -holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him -about this rifle that came to this post office box. - -They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No." - -Well, "Have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the Marines?" - -He said, "No." Then he backed up and said, "Well, possibly a small -bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine -Corps." - -"Do you own a rifle?" - -"Absolutely not. How would I afford a rifle. I make $1.25 an hour. I -can't hardly feed myself." - -Then he said, "What about this picture of you holding this rifle?" - -"Well, I don't know what you are talking about." - -He just cut it off. As I recall, he refused to even acknowledge there -was such a picture. They had none of these exhibits in the room. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you -were there? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called -Neely Street, that you remember? Or Captain Fritz, did he say that he -told Oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had -seen Oswald there? Do you remember at this time anything about that? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anything--pardon me. - -Mr. HOLMES. I remember Fritz, I think, describe the fellow, and he just -ignored it. He was vague about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any statements that Oswald made about any -fight in New Orleans about Marxism or fair play for Cuba or anything? -Does that ring a bell with you? - -Mr. HOLMES. I knew all about it, and I knew the police records and all, -but I don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek -Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell? - -Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent -to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box -2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said, -"Absolutely not." - -"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?" - -He said, "No." - -"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?" - -"No, absolutely not." - -"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?" - -He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my -wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it -is possible she could have." - -"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him. - -And he said, "I don't know any such person." - -I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New -Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to -receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said, -"Well, that is my wife, so what?" - -And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell." - -"Well, I don't know anything about that." - -That is all he would say about it. - -Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we -got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, -where it showed A. J. Hidell." - -"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he -said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card -in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as -much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only -time that he flared up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there ever any mention at the time you were there of -the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? Do you remember -anything about that at all, or not? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? Do you remember -anything about that at all? - -Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had---- - -Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had -gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No." - -"Well, do you want an attorney?" - -And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from -New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him. - -And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned -something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't -remember the name, but they discussed that. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for -any lawyer? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of -police came to the office? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several -people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I -noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door, -and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the -appearance of being impatient. - -But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and -said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask -him." - -Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window -and would be impatient? - -Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others, -but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were -waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact, -the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to -talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer." - -And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient -outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed? - -Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and -through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once -in a while they would crack the door and look in. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth. - -Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office? - -Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here? - -Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet. - -Mr. BELIN. How many doors? - -Mr. HOLMES. One door. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other -than the police officers, that you know of? - -Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their -names. - -Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now. - -Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is -still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall -where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms. - -Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has -one private office of his own, and that is where we were. - -Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between -Chief Curry and Captain Fritz? - -Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a -hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and -I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of -those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he -said, "Give me the black one." - -So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting -that on, Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took -Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed -in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying -to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what -they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't -distinguish one thing that was said. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that -back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and -said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your -clothes?" - -And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong -sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they -uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, -and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of =V=-neck -sweater. - -Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with -the two Secret Service men. - -Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot? - -Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street. -Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the -reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the -sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go -down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a -better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have -my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my -office, so I will just take my own car." - -So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my -office, which probably took me ten minutes. - -When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and -walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this -box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "Well, they got -Oswald now." - -I said, "What are you talking about?" - -"Well, they have shot Oswald." - -They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That -is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I -left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." And just -then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure -enough, they shot him. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement -where they were going to transfer Oswald? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; out on the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police -officer about Oswald getting shot? - -Mr. HOLMES. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way. - -Mr. BELIN. Not since then with any other police officer? - -Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee Harvey -Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you -remember? - -Mr. HOLMES. When I was discussing with him about rental application for -Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that -anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No." - -I said, "Who did you show as your--what did you show as your business? - -And he said, "I didn't show anything." - -I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for -Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'." - -Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there." - -I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?" - -He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money." - -"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?" - -And he said, "No." - -He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the -organization of it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that -Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the -head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be -real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually, -it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably -you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money." -In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a -little money to get literature and work with." - -Then I asked--oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a -well organized or a better organization." - -Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came -to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he -said, "No, not at all." - -"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas? - -"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is -about all he said about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about -his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting? - -Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions -there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro -employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, -and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and -take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the -elevator back up." - -He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. -Nobody seemed to ask him. - -You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in -previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, -"Send the elevator back up to me." - -Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on -downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He -said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all -about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, -and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the -place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees -of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we -will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what -it was all about." - -And he wouldn't tell what happened then. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the -commotion--he kind of---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember? - -Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, -but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic -person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, -and he goes like that, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut -in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember -anything about that? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything -about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building? - -Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back--I don't know whether he -said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your -telephone?" - -And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he -identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, -and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look -at and said, "Where is the telephone?" - -And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went -on out. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and -went out to see what it was about. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home? - -Mr. HOLMES. They didn't--we didn't go into that. I just assumed that -they had covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he -walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked -him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you -are talking about." - -He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped -a policeman in the nose in a threatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I -readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself." - -Mr. BELIN. Because he was what? - -Mr. HOLMES. "Protecting myself." - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during -our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you -have been testifying just from memory, is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal -memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you -have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt. - -I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is -anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time. - -Mr. HOLMES. Read it aloud or to myself? - -Mr. BELIN. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can -remember to elaborate. - -Mr. HOLMES. The only part I have not covered would be the impression -that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to -a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a -polygraph test, a lie detector. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you would care to elaborate? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second -paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes." - -That is really the third paragraph on the page. - -Mr. HOLMES. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is -the last paragraph on the first page. - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on -it. - -Mr. BELIN. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page. - -Mr. HOLMES. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that -the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that -it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office -forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to -change the address on a newspaper. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life -in Russia? - -Mr. HOLMES. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was -her home town. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he -told us. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, -because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting -those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about -going to Mexico? Was that ever covered? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't -spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he -said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost -$26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous -small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy -to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the -talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little -amount. - -They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?" - -"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the -conversation. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico? - -Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to? - -Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there? - -Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw -in Mexico? - -Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or -something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to -Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out -of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the -business about how mad it made him. - -He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. -This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba. - -Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then -he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba -and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," -or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not? - -Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my -recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever -he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the -Russian to go by Cuba. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the -memorandum that you wrote? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up -from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum. - -I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said -that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is -reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4? - -Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the -forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2? - -Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the -third and last paragraph on the page. - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive -about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties -Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything -you care to add to that statement? - -Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything -you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here? - -Mr. HOLMES. All right as is. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3? - -Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine -Corps Service." - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet. - -Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to -add other than what is written on there? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the -distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when -Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was -shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward -him. I remember that distinctly. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy? - -Mr. HOLMES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read -that and see if there is anything you care to add to that? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page? - -Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that? - -Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when -asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he -normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular -weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a -house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. -And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you -remember? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods? - -Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car -with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes." - -"What was in the sack?" - -"Well, my lunch." - -"What size sack did you have?" - -He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack -that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack." - -"Was it a long sack?" - -"Well, it could have been." - -"What did you do with it?" - -"Carried it in my lap." - -"You didn't put it over in the back seat?" - -"No." He said he wouldn't have done that. - -"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long -package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at -work and you laid it over on the back seat." - -He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other -time he picked me up." - -That is all he said about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods. - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next -paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. -You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence -about the curtain rods? - -Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first -paragraph on page 4? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his -whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on -that? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration. - -Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell -identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is -anything on that? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he -was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the -shooting? - -Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule. - -Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule? - -Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just -coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently -there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor? - -Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, -if you remember? - -Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing -there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on -page 4? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last -paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything -else you care to add to that? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you -think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. -Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that -was involved in the purchase of the rifle? - -Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and -matched the original money order was number 2-202-130-462, issued at -the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of -$21.45. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the -pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order? - -Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if -there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he -was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time -of the assassination? - -Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to -repeat that? - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it. - -Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the -upper floors with a Negro. - -The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together." - -Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go -ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as -soon as I am finished." - -And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, -which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He -didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he -took the elevator down. - -But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as -though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, -or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke -involved. - -He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who -he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent -came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, -"Well, you step aside for a little bit." - -Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this -vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, -"Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and -so, where is your telephone." - -And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said -he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and -went on out the door." - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, when we first met, we sat down and I practically -started taking testimony right away, is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in the short conversation we had before we -started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed -here on the record? - -Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. For the record, I would like to offer as a part of this -deposition Holmes Exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in addition, I don't -know for the record, but I would like to offer--at some of the -depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam -reporter? - -And one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back -and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without -signing or coming back without reading it. Do you want to waive it or -come back? - -Mr. HOLMES. I will waive it. - -Mr. BELIN. One other thing. I better mark this as Holmes Deposition, -Exhibit 5. - -Mr. HOLMES. I want to save that. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, I hand you Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 and ask -you to state if you will what this is. - -Mr. HOLMES. It is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular -as put out by the post office department or the FBI showing a profile -view. That is two separate views of President Kennedy. - -Mr. BELIN. The one that says "Wanted for Treason"? - -Mr. HOLMES. Underneath his picture in large type is "Wanted for -Treason." - -Mr. BELIN. How did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact -involved? - -Mr. HOLMES. This was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who -brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of -the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route. - -Mr. BELIN. On what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the -assassination? - -Mr. HOLMES. He brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, -November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many of these were passed out? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; except that it came from various sources. They were -being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them -were brought in. This supervisor said that they had dozens of them down -there, that it had come in by the carrier. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you also said that--is there anything else in -regards to Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 you care to add? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you showed us your deposition Exhibit 1, this -application for a post office box dated November 1, 1963, of Lee Harvey -Oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How can you tell? - -Mr. HOLMES. Because I recognized it as being the application, and -also--I mean the application that I obtained at the terminal annex, and -also the 6,000 designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex. - -Mr. BELIN. And you also showed me an application for box 5475, dated -November 7, 1963. Is that also the terminal annex? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. This was taken out by whom? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is an application taken out by Jack Ruby on November -7, 1963, showing his firm name as being Earl Products; business, -merchandising. - -Mr. BELIN. We will put this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6. Do you -know of any connection of your own knowledge between Jack Ruby and Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HOLMES. No, sir; I know of none. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can say about Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6? - -Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. - -Mr. BELIN. Other than the fact that within a week of one another these -two applications were taken out at the same post office? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is the only significance that it has, as far as I am -concerned. - -Mr. BELIN. We will offer in evidence Holmes Deposition Exhibits 5 and -6, in addition to 1 through 4. - -Let the record show that the original of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 -will be returned to Mr. Holmes, and we will just for our records have -copies made by the court reporter. - -Mr. HOLMES. I have a photocopy machine in my office. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic -copy of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2 and you keep the original. This -would be satisfactory for our purposes. This is the advertisement -you cut out. Do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter -yourself? Would you take the photostats? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the -cooperation you have given the President's Commission. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. BOOKHOUT - -The testimony of James W. Bookhout was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. STERN. Will you please rise. - -Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. - -Mr. STERN. State your name, please. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. James W. Bookhout. Do you want my home address? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. 7048 Cornelia Lane, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Bookhout? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Little over 22 years. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Since about 1945. - -Mr. STERN. Were you on duty on November 22? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Actually, I was on leave on that particular date. -However, I had been requested to come to the office to handle some -expedited dictation in a particular case. Having completed that, I -left the office and proceeded to the Mercantile National Bank, where -I transacted some personal business. Upon leaving the bank, it was -momentarily expected that the President's motorcade would pass that -area. I stood there for a few minutes, and as the motorcade passed I -was actually unable to personally observe the President, due to the -crowd on the sidewalk. While waiting for the crowd to thin, in order -to cross the street, several separate sirens on the police squad cars -were heard proceeding in the direction of the county courthouse. While -crossing the street, some citizen with a transistor radio stated that -it had just been announced that shots had been fired at the President's -motorcade. - -I immediately proceeded toward the office and observed two agents -coming from the direction of the office, who advised that the office -was trying to contact me and I was to proceed to the homicide and -robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. - -I immediately proceeded to the homicide and robbery bureau and -contacted my office and was advised that I was to maintain liaison with -the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. STERN. Did you then go to the police headquarters? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; as I said, I went to the homicide and robbery bureau -after contacting the Dallas office. - -Mr. STERN. What then occurred at the police headquarters? Let me ask -you this: How soon after you arrived there was Oswald brought in? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it was some little time, as I recall, the next -pertinent instance was a report that the Dallas Police officer had -been shot, and that was in the Oak Cliff area. Captain Fritz had -not returned to the office at that time. When he did return, and -subsequently Oswald was apprehended in the Texas Theatre, information -was passed to Captain Fritz as to the name of the suspect that they had -apprehended on the Tippit shooting, and at that time he stated that -that was the suspect that they were looking for on the killing of the -President. - -Mr. STERN. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald mean anything to you at that -time? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. Captain Fritz went on to explain that Oswald was an -employee of the Texas Book Depository, who they had ascertained left -his employment there subsequent to the shooting incident. - -Mr. STERN. And sometime after this he was brought to the police -headquarters? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought in? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Can you describe his physical condition? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can recall one of the officers that brought him in was -Paul Bentley. He is a polygraph operator in the identification division -of the Dallas Police Department, and Bentley was limping, and Oswald -had one eye that was swollen and a scratch mark on his forehead. - -Mr. STERN. Did you observe any other bruises? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. None. - -Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Was he walking by himself, or being held by police officers? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. To my recollection there was an officer on each side of -him that had ahold of his arms. - -Mr. STERN. Was he struggling? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; just walking in, you know what I mean. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. In a normal fashion. - -Mr. STERN. Then what occurred, that you observed? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' -office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and -two homicide officers. - -Mr. STERN. Were you present? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I was not in the office at that time. I called our -office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was -starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and -said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that -Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was to sit in on the interview, and I -was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain -Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m. - -Mr. STERN. How long had the interview gone on before you were present? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Very shortly. I would give a rough estimate of not more -than 5 to 10 minutes at the most. - -Mr. STERN. How long did that first interview last? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. A little under an hour. - -Mr. STERN. Was it interrupted at any point, if you remember? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, what I am thinking, we have got several interviews -here. I know from time to time I can't recall whether it was this -interview, or subsequent interviews Captain Fritz would have to leave -the office for a second or two. By "office," I mean the immediate -office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the -homicide and robbery office. - -Mr. STERN. Did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, -or did you wait for his return? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; it would continue. - -Mr. STERN. By whom was the interview conducted? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Primarily it was conducted by Captain Fritz and then -before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there -was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point. - -Mr. STERN. By "we," you mean Agent Hosty and yourself? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right. - -Mr. STERN. What was Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? -Did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? Can you describe -his conduct? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was very arrogant and argumentative. That is about the -extent of the comment on that. - -Mr. STERN. Is this as to you and Hosty, or also Captain Fritz? Did he -differentiate in his conduct between Captain Fritz and the two of you? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now--no; that would apply to everyone present. - -Mr. STERN. Did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to -answer the questions? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there would be certain questions that he refused to -comment about. - -Mr. STERN. When this happened was the question pressed, or another -question asked? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Anyone asking the--another question would be asked. - -Mr. STERN. What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there -any pattern to his refusing? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then -to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering -this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about -the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he -admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit -that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point -stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally -you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent -to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would -refuse to discuss. - -Mr. STERN. Would you say he had a pretty good idea of what might be -incriminating and what not incriminating? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that would call for an opinion, and I can -only report the facts to you, and based on the example of the type of -questions that I had commented on that he refused to answer, you will -have to draw your own conclusion on that. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. I am just trying to get at whether he seemed -in command of himself and alert, and whether he handled himself -responsibly from his own viewpoint, but if you don't want to venture an -opinion, that's fine. - -When you first joined the interview, did you advise him that you were -an agent of the FBI, and did you say anything about warning him that -evidence--that anything he said might be used? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was done by Agent Hosty. - -Mr. STERN. Did he, at that point, or later say anything specifically -regarding the FBI? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Tell us what that was. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He accused the FBI of, generally, unfair tactics in -interviewing his wife on some previous occasion. - -Mr. STERN. Was this directed specifically at either you or Hosty, or to -the general---- - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was directed against Hosty. - -Mr. STERN. He did not, Oswald did not indicate that he knew Hosty -himself, did he? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. But, there was a complaint about an interview, or -interrogation of Marina Oswald? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about FBI interviews of him that had -occurred in the past, any complaint about such interviews? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know that that would be in this particular -interview, but in one of the interviews which has been reported he -stated that he had been interviewed at Fort Worth, Tex., by agents upon -his return to the United States from Russia, and he felt that they had -used unfair means of interviewing him, or something. Those are not his -exact words, but that is the impression he conveyed. - -Mr. STERN. Unfair in what respect? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. Tell us the nature of his complaint. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think he probably used the expression, "Unfair -tactics," or something in their interviews. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he indicate that he felt that the interview that -was then going on was unfair in any way? Did he complain about that? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, he didn't complain about the interview. He made a -complaint or two, as I recall, that one of the interviews that has -been reported, in fact, I believe it was in this first interview he -complained about his hands being handcuffed behind his back, and asked -Captain Fritz to remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz had one of his -officers uncuff his hands from behind his back and recuff them in front -and asked him if that was more satisfactory and he stated that it was. - -Mr. STERN. Any other aspect of his treatment that he complained of? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I recall one of the interviews that he complained about -the lineup that he was in, that he wasn't allowed to wear a jacket -similar to jackets worn by others in the lineup. - -Mr. STERN. Did this occur at the lineup or subsequently? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was in one of the interviews in Captain Fritz' -office. - -Mr. STERN. Referring to a lineup that had---- - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Subsequently been held--previously been held. - -Mr. STERN. During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever -been in Mexico, and if so, by whom? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if he had ever been in -Mexico. - -Mr. STERN. What did he say? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he had not. I believe he mentioned he had been in -Tijuana, Mexico, I believe, but I believe the question was whether he -had ever been in Mexico City. - -Mr. STERN. Was he asked about an organization called the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee, and if so, by whom? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. I don't recall -specifically who raised the question. - -Mr. STERN. What did he say? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the -New Orleans branch. I believe he said the headquarters was in New York -City. - -Mr. STERN. Was there much discussion of this, or just the -identification? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, that is another instance where he balked on -answering a question. He was asked who the officers were, and at that -point he said he refused to discuss the matter further. - -Mr. STERN. Was he asked his residence address in Dallas and did he give -it? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he furnished the address of 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say that he was living there under another name, or -was another name and particularly the name O. H. Lee mentioned at all -in this connection? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was asked why he was using the name Lee at this -address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord -was an old lady, and his first name was Lee and she just had gotten -it in her head that he was Mr. Lee. He never did explain about the -initials O. H. - -Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he had shot the President, or Officer -Tippit? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of -them, or knowing anything about it. - -Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he -was in the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was -carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had -bought this some time ago in Fort Worth. - -Mr. STERN. He said he had gotten it in Fort Worth? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That is my recollection, and there again, in trying -to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any -further questions as to whereabouts in Fort Worth he had bought it. - -Mr. STERN. Did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at -the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the -arrest, but I don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it. - -Mr. STERN. Did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or -say anything to that effect? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing -he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be -the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest. - -Mr. STERN. When he was asked about involvement in the assassination of -President Kennedy, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, how would you -describe his denials? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but as -I recall, he spoke very loudly. In other words, he was--he gave an -emphatic denial, that is about all I can recall on it. - -Mr. STERN. I believe that in the report you filed on this first -interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used -the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. Does -that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now, -or was that your word? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his -expression of describing it. - -Mr. STERN. Do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive -word now? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be the way I would describe it. As I -said, he spoke---- - -Mr. STERN. I am not trying to put words into your mouth. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He spoke loudly. - -Mr. STERN. I am most interested in getting the tone of this -interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that -is why I ask this question, and there is something of a difference -between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting -emphatically. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I suppose the word, "frantically," would probably -describe it. In other words, I said that he spoke loudly. There just -wasn't a normal type of denial. He was--it was more than that. That is -the reason I say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive -word. - -Mr. STERN. Did that occur only in connection with questions about -whether he had shot the President, or was the general tone of this -interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in -answering all questions. He would have certain kinds there, and certain -types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or -making any other physical gestures of that kind? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Now, this interview, as I understand, took approximately an -hour? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. According to this report, you and Agent Hosty entered the -interviewing around about 3:15 p.m., and it ended at 4:05. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That would be correct. - -Mr. STERN. Were these times that you or Hosty would have recorded at -that moment in the ordinary course of your participation? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. There was no log made of it, as such, but -those were the times recorded for that particular interview. - -Mr. STERN. Your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately -in matter of this---- - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Try to. - -Mr. STERN. And did you make the record of these times, or did Agent -Hosty? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can say that I did. Whether he did or not, I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or -destroy them when you make a formal report? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. They will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make -your--what we refer to as an interview report. - -Mr. STERN. And in this case, did you destroy your notes? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. So, you have no notes respecting this whole matter? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, other than the reported interviewing report. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as I -understand it, to take Oswald before a lineup? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. Did you go with the police taking Oswald? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I didn't go with them. In other words, it was -strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. I did -proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of -maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall how many people were in the lineup? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was a four-man lineup. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know any of the other people? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related -to Oswald's physical characteristics? Were they same size as he, or -noticeably larger or smaller? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were -numbered from left to right, one through four. Oswald was No. 2 in the -lineup. All the individuals appeared to be of the same general age, -height, and weight, and they were white American males. - -Mr. STERN. What about the dress of all the people in the lineup? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but -there was nothing obviously different between their dress. - -Mr. STERN. From your experience as an FBI agent, from your experience -in policework, I take it you observed nothing about this lineup that -was out of the ordinary? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. Did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the -lineup said about the lineup? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. When the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as -you were concerned? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I returned to the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. STERN. Was Oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was brought back -to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but I do know -that I didn't interview him any more that day. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any further contact with him that day? Friday? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it would be on the morning of November 23, 1963, in -the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. STERN. This was another interrogation? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Conducted by Captain Fritz? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any -time to your reports to refresh your recollection. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right; that will be the interrogation that was in -the presence of myself, T. J. Kelley of the U.S. Secret Service, David -B. Grant, U.S. Secret Service, Robert I. Nash, U.S. marshal, and -Detectives Billy L. Senkel and Fay M. Turner from the homicide and -robbery bureau, Dallas Police Department. This interview was conducted, -primarily, by Captain Fritz. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions in the course of this interview? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. What were they, and what were the responses, if you recall? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. One specific question was with regard to the selective -service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of -Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried -this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the -signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to -state the purpose of carrying same, and--or any use he made of same. - -Mr. STERN. Did Oswald say anything in the course of this interview with -regard to obtaining a lawyer? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted -to contact Attorney Abt [spelling] A-b-t, New York City. I recall -Captain Fritz asked him if he knew Abt personally and he said he did -not, but he explained that he knew that Abt had defended the Smith Act -cases in 1949, or 1950, and Captain Fritz asked him if he knew how -to get ahold of Mr. Abt, and he stated that he did not know what his -address was, but he was in New York. - -I recall that Captain Fritz explained to him that he would allow him to -place a long distance call for Abt, and he explained to Oswald how to -ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even -though Oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number. - -Mr. STERN. Did he actually make the call in your presence? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he didn't make the call in my presence. The next -interview that we had with him, I recall that Captain Fritz asked him -if he had been able to contact Mr. Abt. Oswald stated that he had made -the telephone call and thanked Captain Fritz for allowing him to make -the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to Abt. He wasn't -available. Wasn't in his office or something---- - -Mr. STERN. Was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or -did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach Abt? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he made no complaint about not being furnished -an attorney. Actually, there was a good deal of conversation on -that point, and he stated that he did not want any Dallas attorney -representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with Mr. -Abt, that he would probably contact someone with the Civil Liberties -Union, and have them furnish an attorney. I recall sometime during -November 22 or 23, I believe it was, the head of the Dallas Bar -Association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested -permission to talk to Oswald. Captain Fritz gave him that permission, -and when he got through talking to Oswald and came back in and told -Captain Fritz that he had seen him, and that Oswald did not want -anybody from Dallas to represent him. - -Mr. STERN. You heard this? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was in my presence. I don't recall the name of -the attorney, but I was there at the time or during that conversation. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell us approximately how long this Saturday morning -interview took? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be approximately an hour. No interview -that I participated in lasted over an hour, and I think roughly this -one probably started around 10:35 in the morning and lasted for -approximately an hour. - -Mr. STERN. All right. What was his physical appearance at this time? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. His appearance was no different than it was on the 22d. - -Mr. STERN. You saw no other bruises? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem rested, or tired? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I saw no difference in his appearance on the 23d than it -was on the 22d. - -Mr. STERN. How about the way he handled himself? Was he any calmer, any -more communicative Saturday morning than he had been Friday afternoon? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that he might not have been quite as -belligerent on the 23d as he was on the 22d. But he still refused to -discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being -one point that I recall. I remember he was asked if he would take -a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his -practice not to agree to take a polygraph. - -Mr. STERN. Did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a -polygraph? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He made some comment along the line that it had never -been his policy--before, to take a polygraph. - -Mr. STERN. But he didn't elaborate on it? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He didn't elaborate on it. - -Mr. STERN. Did he make any further comment at this interview about his -interviews with the FBI, or their interviews of his wife? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think probably this is the one I referred to a while -ago. Yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment -that on the interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI, regarding his wife, -that he felt that his wife was intimidated. Also, in this interview -that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived -about July 19, 1962, from Russia, and was interviewed by the FBI at -Fort Worth, Tex. - -He stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used -various tactics in interviewing him. - -Mr. STERN. Did he specify what the tactics were? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he did not. - -Mr. STERN. In your report before this interview you mentioned that he -again denied shooting President Kennedy, and apparently said that he -didn't know until then that Governor Connally had been shot? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. That was his statement, that he denied -shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and commented -that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot. - -Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely -surprised? Did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel -about that? I am just asking for your impression. If you don't have -one, say so. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I have no impression on that. I arrived at no -conclusion. - -Mr. STERN. What did he say at this interview with respect to the -purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't -ever made any mail order purchase of one. - -Mr. STERN. Now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning -Oswald between the end of that morning interview on Saturday, and the -next interview of Oswald? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. You stayed at the police headquarters in that period -performing liaison functions? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. You did not observe another lineup? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were other lineups. - -Mr. STERN. But you did not participate? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. But I did not observe. - -Mr. STERN. Or observe? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Any others. - -Mr. STERN. Now, approximately when did the next interview occur? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. The interview at about 6:30 p.m., on November 23, 1963. - -Mr. STERN. How long did this interview last? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Not over an hour. - -Mr. STERN. Who conducted this interview? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions, that you recall? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall asking any specific questions during this -interview. - -Mr. STERN. It was at this interview, was it not, that Oswald was shown -photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a -holster? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. What was his comment about the photograph? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. His comment, as I recall, he was asked if this was his -photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was -his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone -else. He pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news -media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery -bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the -photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how -much he knew about photography, and knew that this--his face could be -superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and -so forth. - -Mr. STERN. Now, was his appearance and demeanor at this interview---- - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No different than it was during the previous interviews. - -Mr. STERN. Did he have any comment at this interview about counsel? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. None other than at the outset of being first asked if -that was his photograph, he first made the statement that he wouldn't -make any comment about it without the advice of counsel, but then -subsequently is when he went into the story about his face had been -superimposed over somebody else's body. - -Mr. STERN. Did he complain in the course of this interview about the -way in which the lineup had been conducted? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. This is the interview in which he--a previously mentioned -comment here was made to the effect that he had not been granted a -request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other -individuals in some previous lineups. - -Mr. STERN. In each of these interviews was he generally taken through -the same questions or similar questions, or were the interviews -addressed to different areas? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. More or less, they had been to a specific area. For -instance, in this last interview we are talking about, that was more or -less confined to this photograph. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that -ground before," or make any such statement? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can -recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he -talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book -Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up -again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer -at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and -said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had -taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a -taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence. - -Mr. STERN. Had he been confronted by the driver of the taxicab, or been -told that they had located the driver of the taxicab before he changed -his story, or did he volunteer the story of the taxi? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was confronted -with that or not. - -Mr. STERN. All right. Do you recall whether in the course of any of the -interrogations any official, anyone present suggested in any way to -Oswald that things would be better for him if he told the truth, if he -confessed? Was he ever offered any inducement--any suggestion made that -he would be better off if he told the full story? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't recall anything along that line. I don't recall -any type of inducement whatsoever. - -Mr. STERN. In each interview in which you participated, did you warn -him about the possible use of his statement against him? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I personally did not at each interview, but I can say -that at each interview he was warned. He was warned numerous times by -Captain Fritz and his rights were fully explained to him. - -Mr. STERN. What sort of warning would Captain Fritz give him, generally? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. He gave a warning consisting of the fact that he did not -have to make any statement, that any statement he made could be used -against him in court, and he had the right to consult with an attorney, -generally, that was the rights that were explained to him, as I recall. - -Mr. STERN. This was said at each session at which you were present? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was given at once each time, and the question would -come up later on, I mean, he would repeat himself, that, you don't have -to make any statement--and so forth. - -Mr. STERN. Did you observe anytime any physical or mental coercion of -Oswald by anyone? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. None whatsoever. - -Mr. STERN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Now, back on the record. This interview on late Saturday -afternoon, was about 6 or 6:30, is that correct? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. This one started about 6:30 p.m. And I would say it -lasted about an hour. - -Mr. STERN. I see. So, that is 7:30? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Was there any further interview that day that you -participated in? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. None that I recall. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again anytime after that interview -concluded? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now, yes; on the morning of November 24, 1963, I observed -him in interview with Captain Fritz and numerous other officers in the -homicide and robbery bureau. Captain Fritz--I did not participate in -this interview. It had already started before I arrived. - -Mr. STERN. Did you notice anything unusual about his appearance? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I stayed there in the office of the homicide and robbery -bureau. When I refer to "office" I mean the overall office, and inside -of that office is a private office of Captain Fritz. The interview was -being conducted in the private office. There is a glass partition or -glass--well, say glass partition on one side of the office that you -can see what is going on inside there. I took a seat adjacent to this -glass area in the office proper of the homicide and robbery bureau, and -watched Oswald during the interview that was going on. About--well, -I don't know what time specifically, it was after 11 o'clock, as I -recall, the interview terminated. I asked Captain Fritz if he had--if -Oswald made any admissions, and he stated that he had not made any. -Shortly thereafter he was taken out of the homicide and robbery bureau. -I remained in the homicide office. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see him again? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Next time I saw him was after a report came out over the -intercom system for any homicide and robbery officers to report to the -city hall basement. I proceeded to the basement after learning from -Lieutenant Baker in the homicide and robbery bureau, who had made a -telephone call to the dispatcher to inquire what was going on, that -Oswald had been shot. - -When I arrived in the basement I asked where was Oswald, and they said -that he was in the jail office. I asked who had shot him, and I was -told an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. I asked where he was. They -said, they have already taken him up to the jail. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Just shortly thereafter the ambulance came, and I -observed them roll Oswald out of the jail office on the stretcher and -that is the last---- - -Mr. STERN. I would like to clear up one point, Mr. Bookhout, about the -number of interviews on Saturday. Your present recollection is that -there were how many in which you participated? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. Two on Saturday. - -Mr. STERN. One at about what time and the other at what time? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. One was about 10:35 a.m., and the second one was about -6:30 p.m. - -Mr. STERN. You do not now recall any separate interview at about 12:30 -on Saturday? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't specifically recall any separate interview at -that time. I checked the record before coming over and the interviews -that I have mentioned are the only ones I have in the report. - -Mr. STERN. Would you describe briefly the conditions in the corridor -outside the homicide and robbery area. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. On November 22 and 23, the hallway in front of the -homicide and robbery bureau located on the third floor of the city hall -building was jammed with news media. From the elevator area to the -end of the hallway, extending on past the homicide and robbery bureau -entrance. - -Mr. STERN. Could you hear anything from the hallway when you were in -the interrogation room? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were two Dallas Police officers on duty at -the entrance to the homicide and robbery bureau, who required you to -identify yourself being that--before being allowed entrance into the -bureau. The interviews of Oswald were conducted in the private offices -of Capt. J. W. Fritz, located within the same bureau, and the door to -the private office was closed, and we did not hear any commotion going -on outside in the halls while the interviews were in progress. - -Mr. STERN. Did Oswald ever say anything that you heard about the press -and conditions in the hallway? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. The only thing I recall offhand is the incident mentioned -previously about the press undoubtedly taking his photograph when he -was going and coming from the homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. STERN. I think that covers all the questions I have, Mr. Bookhout. -Thank you very much for coming here. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. You are welcome. - -Mr. STERN. If there is anything that occurs to you that I haven't asked -about and you think the Commission should know, I would be delighted to -have you tell me. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't think of anything that I could add to what you -have already heard. - -Mr. STERN. Now, our reporter will transcribe your testimony and can -make a copy available for you to read and sign. If you think it is -accurate, you can waive that if you desire, and she will then send -it directly to the Commission. It makes no difference at all to the -Commission which you elect. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think that as far as I am concerned, it would be all -right. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. Then you will waive? - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. My idea--the purpose--only purpose I would have would be -just to help you if there are any typographical errors in there. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. And thank you for coming in today. - -Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MANNING C. CLEMENTS - -The testimony of Manning C. Clements was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Clements. Will you rise and raise your -right hand, please. - -Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Would you please sit down. State your name and address. - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Manning C. Clements, 5542 Montrose [spelling] -M-o-n-t-r-o-s-e Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Clements? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I'm a special agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Twenty-three years and approximately 4 months. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Since April 1952. - -Mr. STERN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a special agent? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I was. - -Mr. STERN. Did your duties that morning before noon concern the visit -of the President? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. Will you relate to us what happened when you first heard the -news of the shooting of the President? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I arrived at the office following lunch and shortly -thereafter heard of the shooting at the motorcade, and my superior -instructed me to go to the office of the chief of police. I was to -offer the services of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for whatever -use the police might find them of benefit. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do then? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I went to the police station, arriving there at -approximately 1 o'clock. I immediately contacted the office of the -chief. I found that he was out. I contacted Capt. Glen King, his -administrative assistant, and Captain Lunday, who was also on duty -in the chief's office. Contacted Art Hammet, the public relations -representative, who was occupying the desk in the outer office of the -chief. I informed each of them as to the reason for my presence and -that any requests that they might have for FBI assistance, information -or otherwise, could be given to me and I would in turn, relay their -request to our Dallas office. - -Mr. STERN. What occurred next? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. During the course of the next several hours I was -in occasional contact with various representatives of the police -department, in contact with my own office by telephone. Served more or -less as a liaison officer to relay instructions to any other FBI agents -who were on the premises. - -Mr. STERN. When did you first hear of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I can't fix the exact time. I am certain that I heard -almost immediately after the arrest, because I learned from police -personnel of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and thereafter, when they -received radio reports, I was generally aware of such report. So, -I became aware of the arrest of Oswald, I would say, approximately -coincidentally with the front office, or with the police department -learning of the arrest. - -Mr. STERN. At that time his name meant nothing? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Repeat that. - -Mr. STERN. His name meant nothing to you? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought into the police -headquarters? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. When did you first see Oswald? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I am, at this moment, uncertain of whether I saw him -prior to personally interrogating him. I don't believe that I did. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know that he was being interrogated, and that other -special agents of the FBI were present? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. It was my understanding that he was being questioned and -that FBI agents were participating. - -Mr. STERN. You were, then, pursuing other functions? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And they were, again, liaison activities? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Liaison--primarily. - -Mr. STERN. Were you, Mr. Clements, the conduit for any information that -the FBI had concerning Oswald, to the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. I understand that you participated in an interrogation of -Oswald. Would you tell me about that? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Sometime during the evening I did go to the homicide -bureau office for some purpose I don't immediately recall, and there -I saw one of our other agents, James Bookhout, and I asked him if -anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description -and detailed background information from Oswald. He told me that such -description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested -that I do it. I learned from Bookhout, as I recall, that Oswald was, at -the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed. - -I sought out Captain Fritz, in charge of the homicide bureau, or one -of his ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my -interviewing Oswald in the regard mentioned. - -I was told there was no objection. I entered this room and found -that Oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who I -presumed to be members of the Dallas Police Department, but whom I did -not personally know. - -Mr. STERN. They were not interrogating him? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty. - -Mr. STERN. Then what happened? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I introduced myself to the officers whose names I do not -believe that I got, and also introduced myself to Oswald. Exhibited -my credentials and told him that I would like to obtain from him some -physical description, background, biographical data. He was agreeable, -and I began my interview with him. - -Mr. STERN. Can you approximate the time of day that this -occurred--roughly? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I would say the interview began roughly at 10 p.m. - -Mr. STERN. How long did it last? And was it interrupted? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I estimate the overall interview was approximately 30 or -35 minutes. I was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, -being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was -gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, -and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. When he returned I continued -the interview. - -Mr. STERN. Approximately how long was he gone? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I would estimate 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. STERN. So, that the total amount of time that you spent with him -was something like 20 minutes? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. That would be a rough estimate. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see him again after that interview? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I saw him next at a time which I estimate was 11:30 -p.m., the 22d. It was at a time when he was being taken to the basement -of the city hall to a press conference. I saw him as he was being taken -to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and I went -to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and I saw him as -he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, -and during the course of the press conference. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see him again at any time after that press -conference? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition, as you observed it when -you---- - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He---- - -Mr. STERN. When you entered the room to interrogate him? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I observed a bruise, a bruise in the vicinity of one of -his eyes. I believe minor scratches on his face. I saw no evidence that -he was suffering from any physical pain or anything of that sort. - -Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. With his hands in front or behind? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Hands were in front. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem alert, or otherwise? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed alert. - -Mr. STERN. Will you now tell, Mr. Clements, as much as you can recall -of your interrogation of Oswald at that time? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I informed him of the purpose of my interview. He made no -objection. I proceeded to get his name in full. I asked him questions -as to his date and place of birth, height, weight, color of his hair -and eyes, and as to the existence of any permanent scars or marks. As -to the identities of close relatives, their addresses and occupations, -and asked him as to his own occupation, residence, attempting to get -them in chronological order, and asked as to his past occupations. - -Mr. STERN. Did you review with him the contents of his wallet and ask -him questions on any of it? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I questioned him as to the fictitious, and obviously -fictitious selective service card, which I found in his wallet. -I recognized it as being fictitious card from the fact that the -photograph was mounted on the card, and that there were obvious -erasures in typing of information on the card itself. The card was in -the name of an Alek James Hidell, but bore the photograph of Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. What did he say about that card? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of -his possession of it. - -Mr. STERN. Were there any other questions you put to him that he -refused to answer? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Toward the conclusion of the interview and after he -had been absent and returned I continued with the questions of past -residence and past occupations. He responded to my questions. At a time -when I asked him as to his present occupation he hesitated and told -me that he thought the obtaining of his description and background -information had become somewhat prolonged. He said that he had refused -to be interviewed by other law enforcement officers previously, and -that he had no intention of being interviewed by me. He continued that -he knew the tactics of the FBI. He stated there was a counterpart or a -similar agency in Russia, that I was using the soft touch, where the -approach of a Russian agency would be different, but the tactics would -be the same. - -Mr. STERN. At that point did he stop answering questions? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No; at that point I asked the same question that I had -asked previously, and he answered. - -Mr. STERN. Did the interview continue beyond that? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. That was substantially the end of the interview. - -Mr. STERN. Were there other persons present besides the two Dallas -police officers who were guarding him? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. At either time, either before or after he had been withdrawn -from the lineup? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem hostile or resentful or irritated by the fact -that you were an FBI agent? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He did not state that, if that were the case. He -was courteous, responsive as to any question. Volunteered little -information. - -Mr. STERN. But volunteered very little information. Did he seem a -person in command of himself? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed to be in command of himself both physically -and mentally. He had what appeared to me to be a slightly haughty or -arrogant attitude. - -Mr. STERN. Did he complain to you about the treatment he was receiving? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything to you about obtaining counsel, whether -he had tried to? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. He said nothing whatsoever in that regard. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about any effort on his part to reach -his family that had been unsuccessful? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. No; he did not. - -Mr. STERN. At the conclusion of your interview, did you leave the -office in which he was being guarded and leave him behind? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. STERN. When you next saw him at this press conference in the -basement, can you describe the conditions in that room? How many people -were present? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. The corridor on the third floor was quite crowded, and -when I reached the basement there were, I would estimate, perhaps 50 -people, all told, including officers, members of the press, perhaps -others. There was a crowded condition I would say. - -Mr. STERN. Quite a great deal of noise? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I don't recall any great amount of noise. Although, I -do recall that members of the press were attempting to get Oswald to -respond to questions. - -Mr. STERN. How did he seem at that time? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I saw no difference in his appearance to that at the time -I had talked with him. - -Mr. STERN. Did he then seem to you to be in command of himself, and -alert? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; he did. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Clements, did you make a record of your interview with -Oswald? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I did. - -Mr. STERN. How soon after the interview did you dictate that memorandum? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. The following day, November 23, 1963. - -Mr. STERN. And have you reviewed that memorandum to refresh your memory -of what occurred? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I have. - -Mr. STERN. And you had no further contact, or didn't observe Oswald, -Mr. Clements, as I understand it, from the time of the press conference -until he was, himself, killed on November 24? - -Mr. CLEMENTS. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you very much. - -Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. The reporter will transcribe your testimony. You can, if -you wish, review a copy of the transcript and sign it, or waive your -signature and the reporter will send it directly to the Commission, -whichever you prefer. - -Mr. CLEMENTS. I think I would prefer to review it after it is typed. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. - -The reporter will get in touch with you and give you an opportunity to -review it. - -Thank you very much for coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GREGORY LEE OLDS - -The testimony of Gregory Lee Olds was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. STERN. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. OLDS. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Sit down, please, Mr. Olds. For the record will you state -your name and address. - -Mr. OLDS. Gregory Lee Olds, 1316 Timberlake, Richardson, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your profession? - -Mr. OLDS. I am an editor of a weekly newspaper. - -Mr. STERN. Where? - -Mr. OLDS. In Richardson. - -Mr. STERN. What is your connection with the Dallas Civil Liberties -Union? - -Mr. OLDS. I am its President. - -Mr. STERN. Were you its president in November of 1963? - -Mr. OLDS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell us what transpired on November 22, in -connection with your efforts and the efforts of your organization to -assure that Lee Harvey Oswald was not being denied his right to counsel? - -Mr. OLDS. Yes. I got a phone call about 10:30 that night from one of -our board members saying they had been called by the President of the -Austin affiliate who was concerned about the reports that were being -circulated on the air. I think Oswald was directly quoted as saying he -had not been given the opportunity to have counsel, and the suggestion -was made that it might be well to check into this matter, and I believe -I called this--I first called the police department to inquire about -this, and finally talked to Captain Fritz, Capt. Will Fritz, and -was--raised the question, and he said, "No--" that Oswald had been -given the opportunity and declined. And I called--then I called the -board member back who had called me---- - -Mr. STERN. Excuse me. Did Captain Fritz say that Oswald did not want -counsel at that time, or that he was trying to obtain his own counsel? - -Mr. OLDS. What I was told, that he had been given the opportunity and -had not made any requests. So, I called our board member back and -conferred with him and he suggested that we go down and see about it at -the police department, in person, to get further assurances. And he and -I and two others of our organization met down there at the Plaza Hotel -lobby about 11:15, directly across the street from the police station, -and we discussed the matter there, and I called Mayor Earle Cabell at -his office, but was told that he was busy at the moment so we went then -over to the police station, and we got in there. Let's see, it was up -on the--I guess the third or fourth floor, wherever Oswald was being -questioned, and Chuck Webster, a lawyer--professor of law, who was -known to the other three men with me said he had been there a good part -of the time since the assassination, and that--we told him what we were -there for, and he said he thought he knew who we could see to get our -assurances. Did you have something? - -Mr. STERN. No. - -Mr. OLDS. We went to--first, we talked--conferred with Captain King, I -believe is the right name, who is, I believe, assistant to the chief of -police. I'm not sure on that. We all went in with Mr. Webster, and this -was shortly after 11:35, or 11:40, and Captain King was, at this time, -talking to somebody and said that Oswald had just been charged with the -assassination of President Kennedy. He had here--earlier been charged -with the assassination--I mean the murder of the policeman, Tippit, and -we told Captain King what we were there for, and he said, he assured us -that Oswald had not made any requests for counsel. And we went outside -of the office and went downstairs, at least--I didn't, but two of the -others, I believe, went downstairs to the basement where Justice of the -Peace David Johnston was. He was the one that had held the--I believe -an arraignment, I believe is the right term, at 7:30 when the first -charge of murder was filed against Oswald, and he also assured us that -there had been an opportunity of--Oswald's rights had been explained, -and he had declined counsel. Said nothing beyond that. I think that was -the extent of our inquiry. - -Mr. STERN. What happened next? - -Mr. OLDS. Also we were--I believe Chief Curry was quoted to us as -having said some--also that Oswald had been advised of his rights to -counsel. I am not sure who told me that. I believe that it was Mr. -Webster. That was about all. We felt fairly well satisfied that Oswald -probably had not been deprived of his rights, so, we then broke up. -I think the other men went home, and I went downstairs. I heard that -there was going to be a press conference, so I thought I could stand in -on that and--do you want me to go ahead and detail that? - -Mr. STERN. Yes, this was---- - -Mr. OLDS. This was right at midnight, I think, when Oswald was brought -in. - -Mr. STERN. Brought in where? - -Mr. OLDS. This was a squadroom and I am not sure what the term is. -It is in the basement of the police station. That was being used as -a pressroom. I believe it is some sort of a classroom or something -of that sort. He was brought in there. I suppose a hundred reporters -standing around on tables, and I understand Ruby was there at the time, -too, up near the front. - -Mr. STERN. You don't know that, though? - -Mr. OLDS. I don't remember seeing him. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know Ruby? - -Mr. OLDS. No; I don't. No; I remember someone saying what he was -supposed to have said when--and helped somebody answer a question. -I forget what it was, and Oswald came in, and he was there about 5 -minutes---- - -Mr. STERN. Were you permitted to enter this room without displaying any -identification? - -Mr. OLDS. Yes; I wasn't stopped at all. Nobody seemed to pay--it was -pretty well confused around there, and nobody questioned me at all. - -Mr. STERN. Would you have been known to the police as a newspaperman? - -Mr. OLDS. I had never been in the police building. No one had any way -of knowing who I was, or what my business was. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have to identify yourself to get into this building -to begin with? - -Mr. OLDS. No; no problem getting into the building. No one in the -lobby, and I don't believe there was anyone at all until you get up to -the third or fourth floor where the police department section of the -building begins. - -Mr. STERN. What were the conditions of this room and the scene? - -Mr. OLDS. Well, you mean the room where the press conference was -held, where Oswald came in? It was very noisy, and when Oswald came -in it was very confusing. The reporters were yelling at each other to -get out of the way, and they were, the photographers were having a -very bad time with it, and people kept crowding toward the front and -standing on tables so that they could see and hear and Oswald was there -such a brief time, and was not able to be heard beyond the first row -of reporters who were circled around him. Thereafter reporters were -interviewing reporters who were on the front row to see what had been -said, and some sort of confusion existed, and enough of--oh, probably -50 reporters standing around there, and it was a very confusing -situation it seemed. And Oswald had to be brought through the hall on -his way from the interrogation room to his cell, so, he couldn't avoid -being seen, and it was at this time that he was making the statements -that were being quoted. - -Mr. STERN. Did you observe this? - -Mr. OLDS. No; I didn't. I saw this on television, but I could imagine -it from that. - -Mr. STERN. How did he look to you when he was at this press conference? - -Mr. OLDS. He looked remarkably composed and determined. He had a--I -remarked afterwards that I would have been very much distraught, and -he seemed very well self-contained and determined and maintained his -innocence. I heard that, and beyond that scratch above--on his forehead -and the eye that was swollen and the little--he looked all right. - -He looked a little tired, of course, and I think his clothes were -dirty, but he looked remarkably in good shape, I thought. - -Mr. STERN. Did this give you any further assurance that--about the -right to counsel question? - -Mr. OLDS. Possibly so, it was---- - -Mr. STERN. I don't want to put the idea in your head. - -Mr. OLDS. Well, I know, but we had the idea that Oswald was not being -accurate when he said he had been denied, because in our dealings -with the police here, we have had reason to believe that they are -very careful of this sort of thing. And certainly in a case of this -notoriety, certainly, our tendency was to believe that, but I have -always been sorry that we didn't talk with Oswald, because it was not -clear whether we would be permitted to see him that night or not. - -Mr. STERN. But, you did not ask to see him? - -Mr. OLDS. No; we did not, which I think was a mistake on my part. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything transpire on Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. OLDS. Not so much. I was watching television most of the day and -then the matter of counsel was raised, I think, during that day. -During the--I suppose when Oswald was being transferred in the hall -again, and--let's see--this is when Mr. Nichols went down late this -afternoon, I think around 5:30, and he reported after that that he -had seen Oswald in respect to the same reasons that we had for going -down there Saturday night, to see if he wanted some sort of legal -representation, and to make sure whether or not he was denied--being -denied it, and he said that he was satisfied that--in essence, Oswald -told Nichols he was satisfied with the situation. I can detail this -conversation if you would like, as it was told to me. - -Mr. STERN. No. - -Mr. OLDS. Well, that was the essence of what was found out. - -Mr. STERN. Was there any mention of the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mr. OLDS. Yes; it was at this time that we first heard the idea that -Oswald might be a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and -this surprised us, because we felt we would have had a record of it -in our files, but there is often a lapse of time when a member moves -from one area to another and it takes some time to transfer him to the -local affiliate. To make sure of this I called the national office in -New York City, and it was night, of course there was no one there, but -I finally got a number of one of the staff members and talked to him -at his home in New Jersey and told him about it, and he said, he would -check on the matter. Have somebody in New York, who lived near the -office to go in and see about it, and he did and they found no such -record at that time. - -However, it was later discovered that on November 4, he had sent a -check for $2 to the office, which was, I believe, discovered 3 weeks -later. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Olds, I think that covers the matters that I am -interested in. Is there anything further that you would like to tell -us? Anything that you---- - -Mr. OLDS. Possibly later after this matter was disposed of, we became -interested in the legal status of Oswald's wife, Marina, and a story in -the New York Times, I believe December 19, said something to the effect -that perhaps she was being held incommunicado and in some way illegally -detained. Anyway, her status was not clear as far as the reporter was -concerned, and our national office in New York City got a number of -inquiries both by phone and personal calls and letters, telegrams, and -they asked us in turn then, to see what we could find out about it. -After a certain amount of negotiations with the Secret Service and FBI -and so on, we sent a letter to Mrs. Oswald and she later wrote us that -she was content with her situation, and was very happy with her status, -in fact, it was for her interest. - -Mr. STERN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Olds for coming in today. - -The reporter will transcribe your testimony and you will then be -notified when it is available and afforded an opportunity to read it -and sign it. If you would like to waive that that is possible and the -reporter would send the transcript directly to the Commission. - -Mr. OLDS. I will be glad to sign it. Do you want me to come down here -and do that? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. OLDS. When do you think it might be? - -Mr. STERN. It should be within the next week or so. - -Mr. OLDS. All right, fine. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF H. LOUIS NICHOLS - -The testimony of H. Louis Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your -right and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. NICHOLS. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. As you know the President's Commission -has been instructed by President Johnson to inquire into all the facts -surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. This morning I -would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey Oswald, -whom I understand you interviewed at the Dallas Police Headquarters. - -Would you state your name and business address? - -Mr. NICHOLS. H. Louis Nichols. 1200 Republic Bank Building, Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. What is your profession? - -Mr. NICHOLS. I am an attorney. - -Mr. STERN. And how long have you been a member of the bar? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Since 1939. - -Mr. STERN. What bars are you a member of? - -Mr. NICHOLS. State Bar of Texas, and admitted to practice in the -Northern District of Texas, Federal Court. - -Mr. STERN. What position do you presently hold with the Dallas Bar -Association? - -Mr. NICHOLS. I am a member of the board of directors for the Dallas -Association, at the present time. During 1963, I was President of the -Dallas Bar Association. - -Mr. STERN. During the calendar year, 1963? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. I see. Would you relate for us, Mr. Nichols, in your own -words, what occurred respecting Lee Harvey Oswald and your inquiry -whether he had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the -period of his detention, which began on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Sometime in the afternoon on Saturday the 23d of November, -as I best recall, in the neighborhood of about 2 o'clock, I received -a phone call from a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who asked me if I -knew whether or not Mr. Oswald was represented by an attorney. - -I told him I did not. He said he had received a phone call from an -eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the East, who told -him that the news media up there were saying that Oswald could not get -a lawyer to represent him in Dallas, and he wanted to know if I knew -anything about the situation. I told him I had not been following it -too closely on television, because I was out Friday and then out with -my boy on Saturday morning and didn't know really whether or not he had -a lawyer. - -And he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted -to know what I knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't -able to get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do -anything about it. I told him I didn't know what the situation was, -but that I would be glad to look into it, and--it had been less than -24 hours since Mr. Oswald had been arrested. In order to refresh my -memory as to what the requirement of the State law is, and since I -don't practice criminal law, I called a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas -who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand what the -obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did -not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation -was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as -he understood it, since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no -legal obligation to appoint an attorney. - -I also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer -friend of mine in Dallas who said he had received a call from a dean of -a law school. One of the calls was from one dean of one law school. The -other was from another. I have forgotten which schools they were, and I -don't remember which called first with regard to the various deans, but -he wanted to know from me whether or not the bar association was doing -anything. Whether Oswald had a lawyer. And whether or not if he didn't -have one, we should do anything about getting him one, and I told him -I had had a previous telephone call from another friend of mine, and -that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not know whether -Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going to -make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second -friend about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district -attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was -represented by a lawyer or not. - -I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because -I had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. I hadn't -talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr. Wade. He -said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew -he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent -Oswald. I asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office -had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for -a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. -I asked him too, as he was going up there, and I asked him if Oswald -requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the -Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he needed one. - -By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation -should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people -might overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be -protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless -of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar -association, ought to look into the matter. - -Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and -he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, -and if Oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer -appointed--he would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen -King, and a captain on the police force that I knew. I used to work for -the city attorney's office, and still represent the city credit union -and have a brother on the police force, so, I have known many of these -people for many years. I called Captain King and asked him whether or -not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an -attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, -and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one -representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a -lawyer. He had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and--or had -not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him--and Captain King said, "If -he does, I am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we -want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to -be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to -have a lawyer." - -I said, "Well, Glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, -or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have -talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that I have -offered to get him a lawyer if he wants one." - -And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down and -talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him." - -I said, "I didn't know whether I wanted to or not at this point." I -hadn't quite decided at that point whether we could do something about -it, and I didn't know whether Oswald had his own attorney, but I told -Captain King if I decided to take him up on his offer I would come and -see him. - -It was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. By that time I had talked to a criminal -lawyer, I had talked to Mr. Wade, I had talked to these two lawyer -friends of mine in trying to decide what, if anything I should do. - -Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald -had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether -he had a lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't--I then received -a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U., and he -wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything -about getting a lawyer for Oswald. I told him what had transpired, what -I had done, and I hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if -anything by me, as president of the bar association. - -He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful -if I would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not -Oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and -hadn't been able to get one, and I told him that I had not decided what -to do, so, I sat around and decided if it had to be done. It seemed -like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people -I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a -lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I -cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or -so in the afternoon. - -Mr. STERN. City hall is where he was confined? - -Mr. NICHOLS. City hall in Dallas, where Oswald was confined. Having -worked there I knew where the chief's office was. - -I knew Captain King, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his -office was in the same place so, I went to the third floor of the city -hall, now called the Police and Courts Building. - -The building in which the police department is located and the jail is -located, and where I assumed Oswald was at that time. I went up to the -third floor, and when I got off the elevator there was just a whole mob -of reporters and photographers and television cameras and cables and so -forth stretched out on that floor. Cables running in both directions, -and I went down into the chief's office, which is the eastern end of -the building, and when I went in there, there were a number of people -in his office, in the reception room, three or four people back in the -chief's office, Chief Curry's office, a number of people, and I asked -one of the officers in the reception room if Captain King was there and -he said, "Well, he didn't think so." - -About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and -motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the -FBI agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president -of the bar association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him -earlier and I had come up there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a -lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the Dallas Bar Association to do -anything. - -The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see -Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to -another part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to -him. If I wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be -convenient with me, and I told him that any place would be all--I just -wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard -to him having a lawyer. So, we then went through a door on the third -floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the -chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said, "Well, just -any place." - -By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated -by bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and -there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the -first door and got to that point and Mr. Oswald was in the center -of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an -officer seated outside there. The chief had the officer open the door, -and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and said that I -was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to see -him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the -chief stepped back and--I don't really know how far away. He was at -least--he was far enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see -him there in the cell. The officer stayed just right outside the door -there. I reintroduced myself to Oswald and told him my name, and that -I was president of the Dallas bar, and that I had come up to see him -about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a -lawyer, and suggested that he sit down. - -So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart. -When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I -came in and then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as -you and I are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I -asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "Well, he really didn't know -what it was all about, that he was--had been incarcerated, and kept -incommunicado," and I said, "Well, I have come up to see whether or not -you want a lawyer, because as I understand--" I am not exactly sure -what I said there, or whether he said something about not knowing what -happened to President Kennedy, or I said that I understood that he was -arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I don't remember -who said what after that. This is a little bit vague. - -I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in -any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was -there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he -said--he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, -and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t. - -Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t. - -Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know -him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," -and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the -police, or talking to--must have been talking to either Captain King -or the chief--I had been told that some effort had been made to get -hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe, -and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At -least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, -but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the -man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew -any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and -he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like -to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." -And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that -organization." - -Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are -members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I -can't get either one of those, and if I can----" - -Mr. STERN. That is either---- - -Mr. NICHOLS. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the American -Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes -in anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in -my innocence"--then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and -said, "as much as he can, I might let him represent me." - -I said, "What I am interested in knowing is right now, do you want me -or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?" - -He said, "No, not now." - -He said, "You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of -these other people to represent me, I might ask you to get somebody to -represent me." - -I said, "Well, now, all I want to do is to make it clear to you, and -to me, whether or not you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do -anything about getting a lawyer right now." - -And he said "No." - -I was satisfied in my own mind that he knew what he was doing, and -that he didn't want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything -right now. So, I left, and as I left the chief asked me whether or not -I wanted to make a statement to the press, and I said, "Well, I don't -know whether I do or not. I don't know whether it is the thing to do or -not." And he said, "Well, they are going to be right outside the door -there, and if you want to say anything this would be an opportunity to -do it." - -He said, "Incidentally, I am very glad you came up here. We don't want -any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer. As -far as I know, he has never asked for one. He has never asked to call -one." - -And I believe the chief mentioned that Mr. Abt's name, but he said, "He -has never asked us to call him." - -He said, "Do you think we have an obligation?" And I said, "I don't -know." - -He said, "I am glad that you came down and talked to him. At least that -takes a problem off of us about not furnishing him a lawyer." - -And so, we--about that time we stepped out of the door and there was -just a whole swarm of photographers and cameramen standing right -there. Right outside the door on the third floor. They came out in the -third floor, reached back down in the third floor, and the chief told -them who I was, and what I had been up there for, and oh, for 4 or 5 -minutes, what turned out to be live television interview, whether or -not--they asked me if I thought he was guilty, and if he had admitted -anything, and I told them that I didn't ask him, and he didn't tell -me, and they merely wanted to know the reason I was up here, and -that interview is something, I assume, that you have, or will be made -available. I don't remember exactly what transpired, and then--but they -asked me what his attitude was, whether he was belligerent and--or -scared, and to me, he appeared to be neither belligerent nor scared. -He appeared to be a man that was pretty calm, I thought, under the -circumstances. He appeared to me that he knew where he was and pretty -much what his rights were with regard to being represented, and he -knew apparently--at least the conversation was that if he didn't get -somebody to represent him that he wanted that he could always fall back -on the bar association, or somebody, and I had told him that I would -see him next week if he wanted me to, and I satisfied myself at least, -to the extent, that the man appeared to know what he was doing. He did -not appear to be irrational. He appeared to be calm. He turned down -my offer of help, and I felt like at that point that was all I needed -to do, and this was later Saturday afternoon, and I had no inkling -that anything else, except maybe that the next week if he didn't get a -lawyer I might hear from him, or check into it, and that's all I know -about Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. That's quite a complete statement. Let's just cover a few -details. What was his physical condition, as you observed it? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Well, he had a little scratch, or bruise over one eye. I -have forgotten whether over the left or right, but other than that, as -I recall, there were no indication of any other injuries or marks on -him that I could tell. He was dressed, I believe, in a white T-shirt -and slacks, and appeared to me to be in normal condition. I mean, there -was nothing obviously wrong with him from a physical standpoint, as I -could observe. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem well rested, or tired? - -Mr. NICHOLS. No; he seemed all right. When I went in there he was lying -on his back and he got up and he didn't--he looked like he was calm, -and was rested, and it--didn't appear to have--now this is a guess, -and my own observation, did not appear to me to have been mistreated. -I was interested in observing whether or not he--it looked like he had -been mistreated, because, as a lawyer, I anticipate perhaps that he--if -he had been mistreated, or might claim he had been mistreated it was -something I should have observed at that time, and I observed nothing -to indicate that. - -Mr. STERN. He, I gather, used the word "incommunicado" to describe---- - -Mr. NICHOLS. Yes; that was his word. - -Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate on that, or any--or indicate to you that he -had not been able to see members of his family or other people of his -choice? - -Mr. NICHOLS. No; he did not say that he had been refused anything. Just -didn't elaborate, and I really didn't ask him at that point. My inquiry -was intentionally very limited. I merely wanted to know whether he had -a lawyer, if he had a lawyer then I had no problems. - -If he asked for a lawyer and they did not offer him one, that was -contrary to what I had been told, because I had been told, as far as -the police were concerned, and Mr. Wade, as he recalled, that the man -had never asked for a lawyer. Nor had he asked to call a lawyer, for -the right to call a lawyer, so that I was interested in knowing whether -or not he had a lawyer and whether or not he had requested a lawyer -and been refused, because the story up east was that he couldn't get a -lawyer to represent him, and I knew that that wasn't true, because I -know Dallas lawyers, and I know that if the man had to have a lawyer, -we could have gotten one for him. So, I didn't go into the other -questions, or whether or not he wanted to see his family and hadn't -been permitted. I really was concerned about whether or not he had a -lawyer or wanted a lawyer, or whether we had any obligations to furnish -him one. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; I see. Did he elaborate on his statement to you that -he preferred a lawyer who believed in what he believed in, or was this -as---- - -Mr. NICHOLS. Not at all. He said--I didn't ask him, because I didn't -know any lawyers--and I didn't know what he believed in, and I really -wasn't concerned at that stage in the man's beliefs or what he had -done or not done, actually, I just wanted--the man was in jail, and it -occurred to me that it would be easy to overlook his rights at that -time in view of the great emotion and somebody ought to determine -whether or not he wanted a lawyer, and I decided as president of the -bar association maybe that was my job to do it, so, I went up there to -see about it. - -Mr. STERN. You say he said he wanted a lawyer who believed in his -innocence? - -Mr. NICHOLS. As much as he could. - -Mr. STERN. As he could? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate? - -Mr. NICHOLS. No; and I didn't ask him to elaborate on it because at -that stage I didn't know to what extent I would, or wanted to, or -should become embroiled in the facts. I wanted to know whether he -needed a lawyer, and I didn't anticipate that I would be his lawyer, -because I don't practice criminal law. They asked me, the newspapers -did, and I honestly don't know what my answer would have been if they -had asked me, "Well, will you represent him?" - -We can debate about that now until doomsday. All I know is when I went -up to talk to him I did not anticipate being the lawyer, because I -don't practice criminal law, although, when I talked to Henry Wade he -said, jokingly, I hope it was jokingly, and if the guy wants a lawyer -he was going to request the judge that he appoint me and the president -of the criminal bar association to represent him. I took that to be not -a serious suggestion, because he knows that I don't practice criminal -law, although, on reflection that probably would have been a good -recommendation, since generally, I suppose, that if they appointed the -president of the bar association they couldn't say that he was getting -inferior representation. I am not bragging about that, but normally, -I think that would be the normal reaction that if they appointed the -president of the criminal bar association and the president of the -local bar association then at least the man would be represented. - -Mr. STERN. What is the practice in this jurisdiction regarding the -appointment of counsel for indigents accused in criminal cases? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Basically, I think that would follow the statutes which -provide that where it comes to the attention of the court, that a -man charged with a felony is not represented by an attorney that the -court will appoint an attorney to represent him. The statute further -provides that the attorney appointed to represent indigents be paid -$25 a day for each day actually present at the trial of the case in -court, and not to exceed $100 for the handling of an appeal. The usual -procedure is, I believe, when it comes to the attention of the judge -that an accused in jail is not represented by an attorney--I am talking -about a felony case now--or a man, whether he is in jail or not, if he -makes requests of the court to appoint him a lawyer, the judges of the -criminal district court will, and do appoint lawyers to represent those -people. - -Mr. STERN. But, ordinarily, the appointment is handled by the judiciary? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And there is no, I take it, organized system of the bar -association to represent indigents? - -Mr. NICHOLS. Well, the criminal--there are two bar associations in -Dallas. One is the criminal bar association, the other is the Dallas -Bar Association, and you may belong to both, or neither, or either -one. The criminal bar association did, last year, attempt to create -and establish a fund to defray some investigative expenses of lawyers -appointed to represent indigents. One of the programs which I had hoped -to get really underway last year when I was president was to, and we -had a committee working on it, was to provide more lawyers who would be -willing to accept appointments to represent indigent defendants in the -criminal cases. My idea was that if we had 100 or 200 lawyers who would -say, "If I am requested to, or appointed by the court, I will represent -these people." And it was my desire to have a large number of lawyers -who would do that. The committee, unfortunately, bogged down and I got -involved in other matters that I guess I considered more urgent to me, -and didn't pursue that, but I did go down and talk to one of the judges -last year just to see what the procedure was because I was interested, -and the judges do appoint these people, I mean, do appoint attorneys -to represent these people, and I talked to one of the judges and he -said that they have never yet had an occasion where he needed a lawyer -to represent a defendant that they haven't been able to get one. So, -although some of these lawyers may do this more than others, as far -as I know, none of them have refused because it was too much of an -imposition on them. - -Mr. STERN. Your activities with respect to Oswald were unusual, though, -and not pursuant to any established arrangement? - -Mr. NICHOLS. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. Something you did because of the nature of the case, and -the questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his -treatment? - -Mr. NICHOLS. That's correct. - -Mr. STERN. Did you, Mr. Nichols, make any notes of your activities on -November 23, 1963, either at the time, or did you at any later time -have occasion to prepare a written report of your activities? - -Mr. NICHOLS. I did not make any notes at the time, and I didn't make -any notes as such, subsequently, after Mr. Oswald was killed. And why, -I don't know. It didn't occur to me to do so. Later Mr. Leon Jaworski, -a Houston, Tex., attorney, called me and said that he was going to -go to Miami, Fla., to the meeting of American Trial Lawyers, and had -been asked to make a report of some sort on the Oswald matter and he -asked me if I would write him a letter outlining what I had done in -connection with interviewing Oswald, and attempting to see whether or -not he wanted the Dallas Bar Association to provide counsel. I did, at -that time, write a letter to Mr. Jaworski outlining as I recalled at -that time exactly what transpired. Later the president of the Houston -Bar Association, George Barrow, called me and said he was going to make -a little talk in Houston, or write a little article in a publication -and would like to know what I had done, and he knew about the letter -I had sent to Jaworski, and wanted to know if I would send him a copy -of my letter to him, or outline what I had done. I said it would be -easier to give him a copy of the letter I had written to Leon, because -I have it, so I sent him a copy and those are the only notes I made -or statements that I have made in writing regarding this transaction -except I did reproduce a copy of the letter to Mr. Jaworski, which I -furnished to you. - -Mr. STERN. I show you now a copy of the letter dated February 10, 1964, -to Mr. Jaworski. Is that the copy you furnished to me? - -Mr. NICHOLS. That is the copy I furnished to you, and the copy of the -letter which I wrote to Mr. Jaworski on that date. - -Mr. STERN. Would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic -copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as Exhibit A. - -Thank you, sir. I believe that completes all the questions I have, Mr. -Nichols. Thank you very much for coming in today. - -Mr. NICHOLS. You certainly are welcome. - -Mr. STERN. The court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we -can furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the -reporter can send the transcript directly to the Commission without -your review, if you care to waive---- - -Mr. NICHOLS. I would like to have a copy of it, if I may do so, and -I understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it -costs--I want to furnish it to the bar association for their records. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS - -The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 9:45 a.m., on May 7, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Samuel A. -Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. David W. -Belin, assistant counsel for the President's Commission, and Mr. Fred -B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department were present. - - -Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. SORRELS. Good morning, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You understand that this is a continuation of your -deposition, and that you are still under oath? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Yesterday you covered with Mr. Hubert the events that -transpired from the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald -forward.[1] - - [1] That portion of the deposition of Forrest V. Sorrels appears - in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index. - -I would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations -for the President's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of -Oswald. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Would you tell us first something of your experience in -Presidential protection work through the course of your career in the -Secret Service? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the first real assignment that I had in -connection with Presidential work was in 1936, at Dallas, Tex., when -President Roosevelt came there, and there was a parade downtown, -motorcade out to the Cotton Bowl at Fair Park, where he made a talk, -and then from there to the Adolphus Hotel for luncheon, and from the -Adolphus Hotel to Lee Park, where he unveiled a monument, and then -motored to Fort Worth, Tex., where there was a reception committee -that met him on the lawn at the Texas Pacific Railroad Station, and -then motored to a park in Fort Worth where he made a talk, and then -continued on out to his son Elliott's ranch, west of Fort Worth. - -During the time that President Roosevelt was in office, there were a -number of times that he came to Fort Worth to visit his son. - -One in particular that I recall was during the Second World War, when -it was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to -get him into his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the -B-36 was manufactured there at Fort Worth, and get him out of town, and -it was some 2 hours after that before any reporter ever found out and -called our office inquiring about the President. - -I have been to Washington on inaugurations two times that I can recall, -the last one being at the time that President Kennedy was inaugurated. - -I have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. I -have been in Mexico on three different occasions when the President -visited there, to Mexico City, Monterey, the last one being at Falcon -Dam, when the dam was dedicated by the two Presidents of Mexico and the -United States. - -Mr. STERN. That was President Eisenhower? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you worked on visits by President Kennedy to Texas -before this? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there--one -a very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to -Dallas to visit Mr. Rayburn in Baylor Hospital. Then when he came to -Bonham, at the time Mr. Rayburn was buried--we had the assignments in -connection with that. - -Mr. STERN. These were informal trips, without publicity? - -Mr. SORRELS. There was publicity. For example, the one that he came to -the hospital, it wasn't announced until about 10 o'clock in the morning -that he would be there. - -He came there, I guess, a little over 2 or 3 hours after that--just a -very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation. - -But, fortunately, everything went real good. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, is there any significant difference that -occurs to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance -arrangements, for the November trip to Dallas by President Kennedy, and -this trip you were telling us about that President Roosevelt made to -Dallas, which involved a similar motorcade, in 1936, I believe you said? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. About the same advance preparation? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Protective organization? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Of course in the one that President Roosevelt came there, it was more -functions and more places to go, including two cities. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. But---- - -Mr. SORRELS. But the actual preparation was along the same lines. - -Mr. STERN. You have been following a procedure and pattern as long as -you have been doing this kind of work? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. It has been pretty much the same procedure? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. STERN. When you know that a President is coming to the area under -your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the -Police Department? - -Mr. SORRELS. We will have a conference with the Chief of Police and his -key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going -to be. - -In some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man -from the White House detail, and for the local committee and the plans -are not entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at -that time is a little bit premature, because I have known of instances -where we have had such meetings and the orders have been cut, and then -they had to be changed, because of some change. - -So, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a -time when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. And that -procedure is followed in every instance. - -In some instances, as I mentioned a moment ago there, when President -Kennedy came to the Baylor Hospital, we didn't have very much time--it -is something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done -in this instance with the Chief of Police and his key men, and the -security was set up on a very, very short notice. - -Mr. STERN. But normally, when you have the time, you like, as I -understand it, to try to make your arrangements---- - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize -that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men -involved, and many things that have to be taken into consideration, so -that their orders can be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the -proper places with a knowledge of what they are supposed to do. - -Mr. STERN. But you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if -there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the -police? - -Mr. SORRELS. We usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, -of course, confer with the police because they may have in instances -knowledge that we don't have about a certain area that it might not be -appropriate to use or to go into. - -Mr. STERN. Let's see if we can relate this now to President Kennedy's -trip to Dallas in November. - -When did you first hear that he was to make this trip, Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. SORRELS. On November 4, 1963, I received a long distance call from -Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn, of the White House Detail, -stating that the President would probably visit Dallas about November -21, and that there had been a couple of buildings suggested, one of -them being the Trade Mart, which he understood had about 60 entrances -to it, and six catwalks over the area where the luncheon would be. And -that the second choice that had been suggested then was the Women's -Building at the State Fair Grounds. That was another place referred to -as a trade center, which is actually Market Hall, which is across the -street from the Trade Mart. - -He instructed that I make a survey of these buildings and report back -to him the conditions. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do? - -Mr. SORRELS. Accompanied by Special Agent Robert A. Stewart of my -office, we went to the Trade Mart and looked the situation over there, -and we did find that there were entrances coming into, you might call -it, a courtyard where the luncheon was to have been--entrances coming -into that area. And that there were two suspension bridges or catwalks -on the second floor and on the third floor. - -The outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean -that it would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the -entrances that could come on to the balcony, you might say, that was -entirely around on the second and the third floors. - -We then went to the Market Hall, which was ideal insofar as security -measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside -entrances, and it was a huge hall, 107,000 square feet, with no -columns, and you could seat about 20,000 people in there. - -But there was another function going to be there at that time--the -American Bottling Association was going to have, as I recall, an -exhibit there. So that part was out. - -We then went to Fair Park, where we made a survey of the Women's -Building. It is a place where they have exhibits during the fair of all -kinds of handiwork and things like that. - -That building had about 45,000 square feet in it, and you could seat -about 5,000 people in it. Securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because -there were two end openings to the building, and there was actually -an area where you could drive a car in there. But the building was -not satisfactory for that type of function--the President of the -United States coming there--because the ceilings were quite low, the -air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed, there were -many steel suspension supports throughout the area. - -I then returned to my office and telephoned to Mr. Behn and informed -him of my findings and told him that securitywise the Women's Building -appeared to be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take -the President. - -Then---- - -Mr. STERN. What did you tell him about the Trade Mart? - -Mr. SORRELS. I told him that there were many entrances there and that -it would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there. - -Mr. STERN. But did you indicate to him that this could be handled? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether I specifically said it could be -or not. Definitely I was under the impression that if the place was -chosen, we would take the necessary precautions and would have it -properly manned. - -Mr. STERN. You did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think -the Trade Mart would be a safe place? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall I told him it would not be a safe -place, no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. When did all this happen, Mr. Sorrels? Was it immediately -after November 4? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it was on November 4. - -Mr. STERN. What was the next event in your advance preparations for the -President's trip? - -Mr. SORRELS. On November 13, Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, from the -White House detail, and Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, had arrived at Dallas the -evening before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the -office of Mr. A. W. Cullum, President of the Chamber of Commerce, and -we then went to the Trade Mart, and then to the Women's Building at the -State Fairgrounds. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, would you look at this Xerox copy of a two-page -memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated November 30, 1963, -and carries the identifying number CO-2-34030. Can you identify that -for me, please? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on -November 30, 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your -work, or were you specially instructed to make it? - -Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was instructed to make the report, but -it is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such -surveys, in confirmation of the phone calls. - -Mr. STERN. Did you make it from notes that you had or from memory? - -Mr. SORRELS. Both, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or -destroy them? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I preserved them. I have them here--regarding the -phone call and the notes that I made, regarding the survey at the Trade -Mart and Women's Club. - -Mr. STERN. May I see them, please? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And this covers what you have just been telling us about in -connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the President's -visit? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your memorandum of November 30 recently, -Mr. Sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any respect in which you would like to change -anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further -consideration of the events described? - -Mr. SORRELS. There is only one point there, about the date that we went -by the police station. - -Mr. STERN. Where is that covered in your memorandum? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it -is stated that on November 15, that we went to the office of the Chief -of Police Curry. - -I was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. I could -be in error on that. - -Mr. STERN. In any event, it was after Mr. Lawson had arrived, and that -was on November 13? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I might state here that I had previously received two -phone calls from Chief of Police Jesse Curry about the President's trip -there. He was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as -possible, so that they could start their preparations. And he actually -called me before Mr. Lawson got there, and he called me again after Mr. -Lawson had gotten there, before we had gone to see him. And I explained -to the chief that, on the first call, there would be someone from the -White House detail coming to Dallas, and he requested that I get in -touch with him just as soon as he got there. - -On the second call, I told him that the man from the White House detail -had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was -not definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, -and that just as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going -to be, that we would then get in touch with him. - -And it was at my suggestion to Mr. Lawson that we go by the Police -Department on the first time, because I did not want the chief to -feel that we were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. And, for -that reason, I suggested that we go by at the time we did--because, -actually, we were still in the process of having these meetings to work -out the final plans, and so forth. - -Mr. STERN. That is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on -page 1? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. Your memorandum, Mr. Sorrels, gives me enough information on -many of the points we are interested in, and I don't think we have to -cover those, unless you would like to add something to them. - -I would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade -route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that. - -Mr. SORRELS. After it was determined that there was going to be a -motorcade, which was actually after Mr. Lawson got there, we had -discussed the ways to get to the Trade Mart, and one of my questions -was why don't we bring the President from the Texas Hotel to the Trade -Mart by motorcade. - -Mr. STERN. Texas Hotel---- - -Mr. SORRELS. In Fort Worth--because I knew we would be able to pick the -President up at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth, and by motor get him to -the Trade Mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the -Texas Hotel to the Air Force Base, and go by plane to Love Field, and -from Love Field go to the Trade Mart. - -But that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to -come by plane. And, of course, it would not have been practical to -have brought him by motor from Fort Worth if there was going to be a -downtown parade, because it would have meant coming in from the west -side of the city, and we would have to go right back to the west side -of the city to get to the Trade Mart, which would have meant a complete -loop through the downtown section. - -So when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade, -Mr. Lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to -take him to the Trade Mart from Love Field. - -So Mr. Lawson and I drove what I thought would be the best route and -the most direct route to the Trade Mart, bearing in mind that there -would be a parade through the downtown section. - -So we drove that route. And then later on we had the police go with us, -and we went over the same route. - -There were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be -better to get onto what we have known as the Central Expressway there, -and come off of it into Main Street. But that was ruled out because of -safety measures, going into the expressway, and it would only be for -such a short distance. - -Another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see -him, that would not have any opportunity to see him on the Central -Expressway. - -So the route that we chose was from Love Field approach to Mockingbird -Lane, left on Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle, right -on Turtle Creek to Cedar Springs, left on Cedar Springs to Harwood, -right from Harwood on Main Street, continue down Main Street to Houston -Street, and then make a right-hand turn to Elm Street and then under -the underpass to Stemmons Expressway, which was the most direct route -from there and the most rapid route to the Trade Mart. - -Mr. STERN. Excuse me--you said right-hand turn to Elm. I think you mean -left. - -Mr. SORRELS. A right-hand turn on Houston--I am sorry--and a left-hand -turn on Elm. - -Now, Elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have -gone, but that street is not the street that they use for parades. - -Main Street is right through the heart of the city. It is the best -choice for parades. It gives an opportunity for more people--tall -buildings on the side of the street--and it is almost invariably--every -parade that is had is on Main Street. The one in 1936, when President -Roosevelt was there, was the same route in reverse, so to speak. - -We came up on Houston Street from Union Station, turned right on Main -Street, right on Main Street, through the very heart of the town. - -Mr. STERN. And went right past the School Book Depository then on -Houston Street? - -Mr. SORRELS. Just within 1 block of it, because we were coming, in that -instance, from the Union Station, which is south of the Depository, -to Main Street, right on Main Street, which is just 1 block from the -Depository. - -Mr. STERN. I take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a -motorcade, and approximately 45 minutes was allotted to the motorcade, -this route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether -to use the expressway or Harwood Street to get on to Main Street, is -that right? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. STERN. Why didn't you route the motorcade on Main Street under the -triple overpass and on to Stemmons Freeway that way, instead of going -to Houston and Elm? - -Mr. SORRELS. Well, because you cannot get to the entrance to Stemmons -Expressway on Main Street. The traffic is not routed that way. It is -impractical. - -On the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to -prevent cars from cutting in from Main Street to get over to Elm Street -there. And if a person would go from--try to go from Main Street over -to Stemmons Expressway, they would have to either hurdle this built-up -place there, island, you might call it, or an extension of an island---- - -Mr. STERN. Do you know what this built-up place is constructed of? - -Mr. SORRELS. It is, I am sure, asphalt, or concrete--probably concrete. -You would have to go down on Main Street, pass where you would -ordinarily turn off, and then come back against traffic, which would -be one way that way, and make a hairpin turn, and come back and get on -there. It just is not done. - -Mr. STERN. Could that reverse-S turn which you have described have been -done conveniently with a car the size of the Presidential limousine? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, -because it would be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is -built there is there specifically to prevent anyone from getting over -on the wrong way there. - -Mr. STERN. When you laid out the motorcade route and drove over it--and -I take it you drove over it several times-- - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you consider or discuss with Mr. Lawson the possibility -of any danger to the President from the buildings along the route? - -Mr. SORRELS. Well---- - -Mr. STERN. Did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any -particular problem? - -Mr. SORRELS. All buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned. -That, insofar as I have been concerned--and I am sure that every member -of the Service, especially the Detail--that is always of concern to -us. We always consider it a hazard. During the time that we were -making this survey with the police, I made the remark that if someone -wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with -a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some -hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the -buildings. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks -in that conversation? Did anybody respond to that remark? Only if you -recall. - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any particular response. Probably there was -confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had any -experience in security measures would have the same opinion. I don't -recall anyone specifically making any comment like that. - -Mr. STERN. But there was no suggestion that anything might be done to -minimize that risk? - -Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what we always do--try to scan the -windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action. - -Mr. STERN. When you went over the parade route with the police -officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to -use? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they did. - -Mr. STERN. And there was no concern expressed by them that some other -route might be better for some reason? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I would like you now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of -the Protective Research activities that took place in preparation for -the President's visit to Dallas, that you recall. - -Mr. SORRELS. At that time, we had no known Protective Research subjects -that we were making periodic checks on in that area. Mr. Lawson -informed me that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed. - -However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some -time before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John -Joe Howlett, to work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police -Department, and I also conferred by phone with the chief of police at -Denton, Tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in -the Stevenson affair were going to college there. - -Mr. STERN. What was the Stevenson affair, as far as you knew? - -Mr. SORRELS. That was an instance where a number of people were at a -theatre, as I recall it, theatre building, when Mr. Stevenson came out, -and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit -him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon Mr. -Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. And -I did not want any such instance to happen when the President of the -United States was there. - -Mr. STERN. How soon had that happened before the President's visit? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't remember. It was probably some 60 days, maybe, -before. - -It was quite some time before. - -But within recent time. And so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed -me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the -situation. I arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant -Revill to accompany Special Agent Howlett to Denton, and confer with -the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals. - -When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor -of the Dallas Times Herald, I learned that--from him--that they had -photographs taken at the Stevenson incident. So arrangements were made -whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the Dallas Police -Department, together with the informant in the case, would view those -films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to -have been in the incident. - -We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special -agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers -that were assigned out in that area. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur in the field of Protective Research? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is all I can recall at the present time. - -Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI -of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should -check into. On October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI -reported a person, a member supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in Denison, -Tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some -trouble if and when the President came to that area. - -Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was -checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at -that time. - -Mr. STERN. Did the FBI report anything else to your office? - -Mr. SORRELS. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special -Agent Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of -handbills which bore a picture of the President of the United States, -Mr. Kennedy, with the caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of -numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason. - -Mr. STERN. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet? - -Mr. SORRELS. I had previously received the information early in the -morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found -on the streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill, -and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on -the street. We could not from the police investigation or from our -inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them. - -And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time. - -Mr. STERN. Did the Dallas police give you any information of this -nature--I am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the -Protective Research area, in advance of the President's trip? - -Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with -Lieutenant Revill's department there. - -Mr. STERN. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person -or group that might present a danger to the President? - -Mr. SORRELS. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that -were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be -the type that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills, -but with placards in the area where the President might appear. And it -developed that they did show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and -they were taken into custody by the police department. - -Mr. STERN. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would -be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be -taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And -it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere -fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. But -that we did not want them close enough to where the President would -come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to -the President or the Vice President or members of their families. - -There had recently been passed in Dallas an ordinance making it -unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or -intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or -public assembly was being held. We obtained copies of that ordinance -and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in -the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to -be enforced. - -Mr. STERN. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record -of any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that -Lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area -in his advance check before he left Washington. Did this surprise -you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified -as potential threats to the President in the territory of the Dallas -office? - -Mr. SORRELS. No. We had records of some subjects that were in -institutions, but they were not out where they would be available. - -Mr. STERN. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the Dallas -office, PRS subjects who were not in institutions? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. STERN. But there were none at this particular time? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had -occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants -and referring that information to the Protective Research Section in -Washington for their files? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come -to that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no -actual threat, nor was the President of the United States involved in -name or otherwise, insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson -affair. - -Mr. STERN. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and -local officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential -danger to the President? - -Mr. SORRELS. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or -something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal -offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the -President of the United States have certainly in the past, to my -recollection--I don't recall any specific instance--but I do know we -have received such reports. - -Mr. STERN. And from the local police authorities? - -Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that -in the past there have been instances where such a report has been -reported to us. - -Mr. STERN. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of -information in which you would be interested in this area? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the -Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the -auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas -Police Department. - -We have participated in schools at Austin, Tex., given by the -Department of Public Safety to investigative officers, to -sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs. - -We have participated at Texas A & M College, at College Station, Tex., -in their program of police training, where they have students that -are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement -organizations that attend their classes. - -And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the -protective measures that are required and taken in connection with -the protection of the President of the United States, members of his -family, and the Vice President. - -Mr. STERN. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices -of Federal agencies? - -Mr. SORRELS. I consider it very, very good. - -Mr. STERN. In all respects? - -Mr. SORRELS. In all respects; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI -or Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection -measures for the day of the President's visit? - -Mr. SORRELS. I had offers from some of the other agencies, offering -their services in case there was anything they could assist in. - -The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local -officials, police department, sheriff's department, Department of -Public Safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take -care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always -suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if -any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything -unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch -with us immediately, along those lines. - -Mr. STERN. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply -all the outside assistance you needed for this visit? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has -some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, -and due to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years -I know these people personally, and I have never yet called upon the -Dallas Police Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of -Public Safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten -cheerfully and willingly. - -For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to -see Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a -matter of 2 or 3 hours before the President would get there, that he -was coming, because the afternoon before, when I heard that he was -coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not -supposed to be any publicity about it. - -The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10 -o'clock in the morning. - -Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the -hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in -a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be -blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around -the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made -to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there. - -I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, -not only in the Dallas area, but throughout Texas, is as good as it can -be any place in the country. - -Mr. STERN. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied -all the manpower you felt was necessary? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were all the police that had various functions along the -motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. SORRELS. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary -police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. -I am not sure about that. - -They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are -not armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed. - -And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But -I do know that they use them on occasion. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our -interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn -now to the actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance -preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's -memorandum, which I am about to introduce. - -Mr. SMITH. I have no questions. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum -Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964. - -Would you initial each page, please? - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of -November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a -passenger in the motorcade and thereafter. - -In what car were you riding in the motorcade? - -Mr. SORRELS. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the -one immediately in front of the President's car. - -Mr. STERN. What was your function in the lead car? - -Mr. SORRELS. To be there with the special agent who had made the -survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and -buildings as we drove along in the motorcade. - -Mr. STERN. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings -and the windows of the buildings? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Looking for what? - -Mr. SORRELS. We always do that. - -Mr. STERN. What would you be looking for? - -Mr. SORRELS. Anything that to us might mean danger. - -For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or -something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. Or -if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or -toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the -windows as you drove along Main Street? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on Main Street. -The street was full of people. I made the remark "My God, look at the -people. They are even hanging out the windows." Because I had observed -many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along. - -Mr. STERN. Now, as you made the right turn from Main Street onto -Houston Street, did you observe anything about the windows of any -building in your view? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand -side, and the windows there appeared to be closed. - -Mr. STERN. To the right-hand side of Houston Street? - -Mr. SORRELS. Of Houston Street; yes, sir. - -The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on Houston Street, of -course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of -the street. I saw that building, saw that there were some windows open, -and that there were some people looking from the windows. I remember -distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows -almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors -down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I -may have seen there. I don't recall any specific instance. But I did -not see any activity--no one moving around or anything like that. - -Mr. STERN. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows -of the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. I did, yes; because it was right in front. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to -your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far -right side of the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was at least one or two windows that were -open in that section over there. I do not recall seeing anyone in any -of those windows. I do not, of course, remember seeing any object or -anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing -out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around that I saw -at all. - -Mr. STERN. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the -side of the building facing you? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of -the street. - -Mr. STERN. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan. - -Mr. STERN. And you were in the rear seat? - -Mr. SORRELS. Right rear. - -Mr. STERN. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. STERN. But you were still able to observe the whole building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to--as far over to the -right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of -course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I -would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the -view of the window on the left. - -Mr. STERN. You didn't have your head actually out of the window? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window. - -Mr. STERN. As you turned into Houston Street, Mr. Sorrels, can you -estimate how far in front of the President's car the lead car was? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, probably about 30 feet--fairly close. - -Mr. STERN. As you approached the Book Depository Building along Houston -Street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of -the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out -from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as -you approach. - -But we turned to the left on Main Street, and at that time just -glancing by, I could see the side of the building from the window where -I was sitting in the car. - -Mr. STERN. I believe you mean left onto Elm Street. - -Mr. SORRELS. Elm Street--I am sorry. - -Mr. STERN. So that when you turned from Houston left onto Elm, you -again had a look at the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we -pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually -more than a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you -can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by -the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you -would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not -be able to see the building after you got a little distance down Elm -Street there. - -Mr. STERN. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as -your car negotiated this turn onto Elm Street? - -Mr. SORRELS. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the -crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn. - -Mr. STERN. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the -building at that time? - -Mr. SORRELS. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw -all the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made -the turn. But then I was looking at the people along the side of Elm -Street, along each side. - -Mr. STERN. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into Houston -Street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in -time? - -Mr. SORRELS. On Houston Street? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. As you turned right off Main onto Houston Street, the -building first came into view. - -Mr. SORRELS. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured -your view? - -Mr. SORRELS. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came -to the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in -front, and I just looked at it, and looking at the people along the -side, and as we were making the turn I was just glancing like that, and -saw the building. - -I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after -making the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that -direction, until after the first shot. - -Mr. STERN. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then, -because you were looking at other things? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently -and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the -building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had -been doing during the entire motorcade route. - -Mr. STERN. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer -than that, or can you estimate? - -Mr. SORRELS. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes. - -Mr. STERN. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows -along that side, is it not? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven -stories high. - -Mr. STERN. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the -windows, or is it a general impression. - -Mr. SORRELS. Just a general impression. - -In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or -anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building -there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in -them--that is all. There wasn't any activity or anything like that that -I saw. - -Mr. STERN. Now, as you turned left from Houston onto Elm and looked -again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had -before? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of -course, getting in front of the building, I just glanced out--just as -we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd -and the building, just a glance at it at that time. - -Mr. STERN. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the -building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see -the whole building. - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I -looked up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I -looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced -up--I would not say that I saw the entire building at all at that time. - -Mr. STERN. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that -you observed no one there with a weapon? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Or any other implement? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. That several windows were open on the side of the building -at different places? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And that the only people you observed were at one particular -location? - -Mr. SORRELS. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two -colored men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing--specifically -seeing anyone else. There may have been some one other person over -there. But I do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand -side of the building, where the window was open. I do not recall that. - -Mr. STERN. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was -in what part of the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the -distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far. - -Mr. STERN. And about two stories down? - -Mr. SORRELS. From the top; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first -turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm? - -Mr. SORRELS. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building -I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after -that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would -not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the -building, unless I put my head almost out the window. - -But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the -people as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time. - -Mr. STERN. When you looked at the crowd along Houston and Elm, did you -notice anything unusual? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much -detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next. - -Mr. SORRELS. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn -on Elm Street there. As a matter of explanation, Elm Street goes at a -downgrade--in other words, as I said a moment ago, it makes more than -a left-hand--oblique left-hand turn. It curves back--I mean it is more -of a sharp angle than a right angle. And then it swings down a little -curve to go into the underpass. - -There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing -in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and -Houston Streets. - -We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late. - -Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the -schedule. - -I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the -turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand -turn. - -Then I looked back to the right. - -Mr. STERN. How close was the President's car? - -Mr. SORRELS. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several -car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed. - -Mr. STERN. You think somewhat further than you estimated before? - -Mr. SORRELS. As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on -Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I -remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, "I wish he would come on, -because we are late now," or words to that effect. - -And I expressed to him, I said, "Oh, we are not going to be very late." - -And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30. - -And I said, "We are not going to be over 5 minutes late," and the Chief -of Police, I believe, spoke up and said, "We are about 5 minutes away -now." - -And so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were 5 -minutes away. - -And it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was -heard. - -Mr. STERN. Now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot? - -Mr. SORRELS. I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire -of an automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a -firecracker. - -I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this -terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the -back and up in that direction. - -At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was -way back in the back. - -Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I -said, Let's get out of here and looked back, all the way back, then, -to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement -there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. - -And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand -side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?" - -He said, "Yes." - -He said, "Lead us to the hospital." - -And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, -and said, Surround the building. He didn't say what building. He just -said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten almost in -under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost -abreast of us. - -When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get -going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want -them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front. - -And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car -and we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest -hospital. - -Mr. STERN. Let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again. - -You testified that you heard three reports? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Are you pretty certain about that? - -Mr. SORRELS. Positive. - -Mr. STERN. And no more and no fewer? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these -reports? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was to me about twice as much time between the -first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots. - -Mr. STERN. Can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the -third shot? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I have called it out to myself, I have timed it, and -I would say it was very, very close to 6 seconds. - -Mr. STERN. It sounds like you can still hear the shots. - -Mr. SORRELS. I will hear them forever--it is something I cannot wipe -from my mind ever. - -Mr. STERN. And you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time? - -Mr. SORRELS. After--as I said before, on the first shot, it was too -sharp to be a backfire of an automobile. It just didn't sound like -that at all. And then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as -they did, and the confusion, there was no question, because I said, -"Get out of here," meaning to move out, because certainly if there is -anything going on like that, we don't want to even be stationary or -near stationary--it is to get out of the vicinity as quickly as we can -from the source of danger. I thought in my mind--my thought was that I -should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so forth. -There was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast. - -Mr. STERN. Now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you -feel that all three reports came from the same direction? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Definitely so. - -Mr. STERN. And that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what? - -Mr. SORRELS. To the right and back. That is about the only way I can -express it. - -And, as I said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have -come back up on the terrace there. And that is the reason I was looking -around like that when the first shot. And I continued to look out until -the other two shots. And then I turned on around and looked back to -where the President's car was, and that is when I saw some movement -there, and the car just seemed to leap forward. - -Mr. STERN. When you looked at the terrace to the right of Elm Street, -did you observe any unusual movement? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't see anything unusual at that time. - -Mr STERN. Were you looking at that terrace when either the second or -third shot was fired? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I was. And I saw just some movement of some people, -but no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out -rather rapidly. And we were quite a ways down the street at that time. - -Mr. STERN. How do you mean movement of people? - -Mr. SORRELS. It seems I recall someone turned around and was going in -the other direction, like moving away from the street. And that is all -I can recall. - -Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that -the shots might have been fired from that terrace there? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. It sounded to you at first as though it came from there? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is the way it sounded--back into the rear and to the -right, back up in that direction. And in the direction, of course, of -the building. - -But the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me--in -other words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and -that is the reason I looked there. - -As we were approaching the overpass there, Mr. Lawson remarked that -there was an officer on the overpass there. I saw a police officer -standing there, with two or three other persons over to his right. - -Mr. STERN. Where is this? - -Mr. SORRELS. On the overpass, on Elm Street, after we leave the corner -of Elm and Houston. - -There was no activity there. They were just standing there. - -And I remarked, as I recall. "A policeman is there," or words to that -effect, because Mr. Lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of -the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one -of the specific things that was checked all the way through. - -Mr. STERN. And you observed nothing unusual on the overpass? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or -spread out over the overpass? - -Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, the police officer was about the center -of the overpass on Elm Street, and then to his right--I mean to my -right which would have been his left, there seemed to be, as I recall -it, about three other persons up there that appeared to be workmen or -dressed like that, and they were to his right. - -They were not right close together, but standing within walking -distance. - -Mr. STERN. As far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the -overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots -might have come from the overpass? - -Mr. SORRELS. None whatsoever; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And are you certain in your own mind that they did not come -from the overpass? - -Mr. SORRELS. Positive. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not -have come from the Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been -consistent with your hearing of the shots? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; they would have. - -Mr. STERN. What happened next, Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. SORRELS. We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could. - -Mr. STERN. Did you go into the hospital? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not go into the hospital. - -Of course the lead car was in front. We went around to the emergency -entrance. I jumped out of the car, and I expected to see stretchers -there, out waiting, but they were not. And I ran to the entrance door -there, and at that time they began to bring stretchers out, and I said, -"Hurry up and get those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one -of the police officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers -out. - -There was a lot of confusion around at that time. - -And they did get the stretchers out. And then Mr. Johnson--they brought -him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. And they took Mr. -Connally in, loaded him first, and then the President, and just as -quick as they got in there, I immediately went into a police car that -was leaving and asked them to take me to the building as fast as they -could, and when I said the building I meant the one on the corner -there, which was the Book Depository. - -Mr. STERN. Why did you designate the Book Depository? - -Mr. SORRELS. Because I wanted to get there and get something going in -establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. And upon -arrival at the Book Store, we pulled up on the side, and I went in the -back door. - -Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Had you heard any mention of the Book -Depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I never heard anything. - -Mr. STERN. And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came -from the Book Depository? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't know at that time. - -Mr. STERN. You just wanted to get to that general area? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses -around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity. - -And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door. - -There were people moving around. - -I asked, "Where is the manager here?" - -Mr. STERN. Just a minute. - -How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired -until the time you returned to the Book Depository? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, -because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and -I wasn't there very long. - -And we came back as fast as we could. - -Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because -traffic was moving. - -The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear -sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the -Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. -And that was cleared out. - -But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under -lights and siren, as fast as we could. - -But there was traffic that slowed us up some. - -Mr. STERN. So you estimate not more than 20 minutes? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 -minutes at the very most. - -Mr. STERN. Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did -you see any police officers outside the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I -could not say any specific one. - -Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man -standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just -standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew -what happened. - -And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?" - -He said, "No, sir." - -Did you see anyone leave the back way? - -No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you get his name? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I -figured he was an employee of the building. - -I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager -and they pointed to Mr. Truly. - -I identified myself to Mr. Truly. - -Mr. STERN. Just a minute. - -Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform -when you came up? - -Mr. SORRELS. I did not see one; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And you were able to enter the building without identifying -yourself? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Then you got inside the building and what did you do? - -Mr. SORRELS. I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. -He was standing there. - -I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a -stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and -addresses of every employee of the building, in the building." - -And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see -anything?" - -And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan. - -Mr. STERN. What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees -of the building? - -Mr. SORRELS. Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I -was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in -that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to -be talked to later. - -In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something. - -Mr. STERN. You were looking for potential witnesses? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any -employee might be involved one way or the other? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots -came from the building. - -When I was--when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told -him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what -he had seen. And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew -definitely that any shots had come from the building. - -Mr. STERN. Now, what precisely did Mr. Brennan tell you? - -Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Brennan said that he was standing across the street, -watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the -direction where the President was, and he heard a sound which he -thought at first was a backfire of an automobile. And that shortly -afterwards there was another sound, and that he thought that somebody -might be throwing firecrackers out of the building. - -And he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window -on the right-hand side, the second floor from the top. - -And he said, "I could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him -fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in -and moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be. - -Mr. STERN. How did you happen to talk to Mr. Brennan? - -Mr. SORRELS. I asked--I don't know who, someone there--"Is there anyone -here that saw anything?" And someone said, "That man over there." - -He was out in front of the building and I went right to him. - -Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else? - -Mr. SORRELS. I asked him whether or not he thought he could identify -the person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of -him, said that he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared -to be a light jacket or shirt or something to that effect, and that he -thought he could identify him--said he was slender build. Because I was -definitely interested in someone that had seen something that could -give us some definite information. - -And I also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a -young colored boy there, by the name of Euins. And I got him and Mr. -Brennan, and I took them over to the sheriff's office where we could -get statements from them. - -Mr. STERN. What was the name of that young man? - -Mr. SORRELS. Euins, I believe it is, or pretty close to that. - -Mr. STERN. Did you interview Mr. Euins? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the -noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window -with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he -said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored -or white. - -Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything unusual about the way Mr. Brennan -was dressed? - -Mr. SORRELS. He was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a -hard hat. - -Mr. STERN. Construction hat? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else about anything else -he had observed at that time? - -Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific thing. - -Mr. STERN. Did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the -windows of the Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether he did or did not. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about observing anyone leave the Book -Depository Building hurriedly after the shooting? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did he point out to you precisely the window from which he -said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Where was that window in relation to the windows at which -you saw several Negro men as you drove on Houston Street? - -Mr. SORRELS. It was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as I -recall it. - -Mr. STERN. Can you give us these directions in terms of compass points? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. That would be on the east side of the building. - -Mr. STERN. So the window that Mr. Brennan pointed out to you was on the -extreme east side? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And the window or windows at which you had observed several -Negro men was more to the west? - -Mr. SORRELS. A little bit more to the west--not very much--but to the -west, on the floor below. - -Mr. STERN. Are you certain in your mind about the floor below? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I am. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any particular reason for that? You said before -that you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long -to observe it, and you saw these men at the window. - -What makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor? - -Mr. SORRELS. Well, because I remember that they were not near the -top--I can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down -from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got -back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor -below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men. - -Mr. STERN. So it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. And are you certain that those were the same open windows? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I think they were. I don't have any reason to think -otherwise. - -Mr. STERN. Then you accompanied Brennan and Euins where? - -Mr. SORRELS. To the sheriff's office, which was right across the street -from the Book Depository. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any further conversation with them on the way -over there? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; we discussed--I was talking to him on the way -over there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would -like to come in there where we could get their statements down in -writing. - -Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything that you have not already told us? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. - -The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy -that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran -off. He said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make -any effort to get in touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing. - -Mr. STERN. Then you took them into the sheriff's office? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What was going on in the sheriff's office? - -Mr. SORRELS. At that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the -interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. And I -did not want to just stay there and wait too long, so I asked him would -he also write up the statements on it--Mr. Brennan and the colored boy. -And I then started out in the hall of the sheriff's office there with -the idea of going back to see if I could locate other witnesses, when -Chief Deputy Sheriff Mr. Allan Sweatt told me there was another witness -across the hallway, near Mr. Sweatt's office--he is the polygraph -operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the sheriff's -office but across the hall--that there was an FBI agent taking a -statement over there from a person. - -So I accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a -few minutes until Mr. Sweatt came and called me out and says "Forrest, -there are some people here I think you ought to talk to." - -Mr. STERN. Whose statement was being taken by the FBI? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall. And, at that time---- - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall what their statement was--what their testimony -was? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't, because I wasn't in there but just a very -short time. And this FBI agent was questioning about what they had seen -and so forth. I don't recall--it was being taken down at the time. - -So I went out, and they had Mr. and Mrs. Arnold there. And Mr. Arnold, -a young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing -on the side of the street on Houston Street, there by the courthouse -building, and that they--this is prior to the time of the arrival of -the President there, some 20 to 25 minutes beforehand, he said. - -Mr. STERN. This is the east side? - -Mr. SORRELS. That would be the east side of Houston Street. - -Mr. STERN. Are you certain about the name of this couple? I believe you -said Arnold. - -Mr. SORRELS. Well---- - -Mr. STERN. Could that have been his first name? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that could have been his first name. - -Mr. STERN. Can you recall his second name? - -Mr. SORRELS. I would know it if I heard it. - -Mr. STERN. Could it have been Roland? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Roland is right. - -Mr. STERN. What did they tell you? - -Mr. SORRELS. He said that they were standing there waiting for the -President to come by, and they were talking about security. And he said -that right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, -which is the Book Depository, and that there were a couple of windows -open towards the west side, and that he saw a man standing in there -with what appeared to be a rifle with a telescopic sight. - -Mr. STERN. Towards the west side? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes--two windows towards the west side. - -And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service -man." - -And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her -glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, -of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How -could you determine--what made you think it had a telescopic sight on -it?" - -He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background." - -I said, "How was he holding it?" - -He said, port arms--he was standing several feet back away from the -window. - -And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?" - -He said, "No, I could not." - -Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her? - -Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not -see anything, because she didn't have her glasses. - -Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the -windows of the Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that he did. I don't recall that at all. He -may have, but I don't recall that. - -Mr. STERN. Did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly -on the extreme east side of the sixth floor? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall that he mentioned anyone there. - -Mr. STERN. What was your impression of what he told you? - -Mr. SORRELS. Well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is -why--he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in -there and said, Look, I saw a man with a rifle over there. - -I said, "Why didn't you say something to somebody about it?" - -He said, "I just thought he was a Secret Service man." - -And at that time he appeared to be, as far as I was concerned, truthful -about the matter. - -Mr. STERN. You didn't have any reason to doubt him? - -Mr. SORRELS. No. - -Mr. STERN. And would the same be true of what Mr. Brennan told you, and -Euins? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you look towards the window that Roland had pointed out -from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was -possible to observe from there someone standing several feet back from -the window? Did you have occasion to check that? - -Mr. SORRELS. Well, no, not specifically. - -Later on I heard that he had--I believe in his statement that he wrote -up down there at the sheriff's office, something about 15 feet back. -And I thought to myself, well, I don't think you could see anybody that -far back. - -Mr. STERN. But he didn't tell you that? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, he just said he was standing back of the window there, -just kind of looking around there. He said after he saw him there, he -didn't pay any more attention, because he just thought it was a Secret -Service man. - -Mr. STERN. What happened next? - -Mr. SORRELS. There was another witness there that I started talking -to--I don't recall the name now, because I told him to go in--somebody -that saw a truck down there--this is before the parade ever got -there--that apparently had stalled down there on Elm Street. And I -later checked on that, and found out that the car had gone dead, -apparently belonged to some construction company, and that a police -officer had come down there, and they had gone to the construction -company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the way. - -Apparently it was just a car stalled down there. - -But this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they -had a guncase. But then I didn't pursue that any further--because then -I had gotten the information that the rifle had been found in the -building and shells and so forth. - -At that time Mr. Harry McCormack, who is a reporter for the Dallas -Morning News, and whom I have known for many years, came to me and -says, "Forrest, I have something over here you ought to know about." - -I said, "What have you got here?" - -He said, "I have a man over here that got pictures of this whole thing." - -I said, "Let's go see him." - -So we went on to a building at the corner of Elm and Houston, on the -east side of Houston, and across the street from the court house -building there, and up to the office of a Mr. Zapruder, they have a -dress manufacturing place there in that building. And he was there with -another man connected with the business there, and apparently some -magazine representatives there. And Mr. Zapruder was real shook up. He -said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these pictures, -that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says, -"My God, I saw the whole thing. I saw the man's brains come out of his -head." - -And so I asked Mr. Zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy -of those films. - -He said, yes. - -So then accompanied by Mr. Zapruder, and this other gentleman in the -business there with him, whose name I don't recall at the moment, and -Mr. McCormack, we went then to the Dallas Morning News Building, which -is about three blocks from Mr. Zapruder's building, three or four -blocks from there, with the idea of getting those films developed right -away. - -There was no one there that would tackle the job. We then went to the -television section, WFAA, of the Dallas Morning News, to see if we -could get them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not -attempt to do that, but they did assist us by calling Eastman Kodak -Co., and they said if we came out there right away, that they would get -right on it. - -We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., -and while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still -pictures, and I arranged with him for us to get copies of those. - -Mr. STERN. What was his name--do you recall? - -Mr. SORRELS. He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on West Commerce -Street--Mr. Willis. - -And so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of -the pictures. - -At that time, I made a phone call to my office, because I had not been -in contact with them since we had departed from Love Field. I was -informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain -Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, -that he had a suspect in custody. - -Mr. STERN. About what time was that? - -Mr. SORRELS. That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine. - -Mr. STERN. About an hour after you had returned---- - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I would say that it was at least that long--maybe a -little bit longer. - -So when I got that information, I told Mr. Zapruder that I would -contact him later and get the pictures, because I wanted to get right -down to Captain Fritz' office. - -So I left then with the same police car and had them take me to Captain -Fritz' office. - -And upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there -was already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of -the city hall down there. And there was a number of officers in the -detective bureau office there, and Captain Fritz' office, which is an -office within the large office, was closed, and the blinds were drawn -in his office there. - -I did not knock on the door or anything, because I did not want to -interfere with him if he was talking to someone. So I just waited there -until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found -out to be Oswald in custody at the time. - -And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to -this man when I have an opportunity." - -He said, "You can talk to him right now." - -And he just took him on back around to the side of Captain Fritz' -office, and there was a number of other officers there, might have been -some FBI agents, too, there, because there were numbers of FBI agents -around in that vicinity almost all the time from that time on. And some -of the detectives there. - -And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and -he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him. - -And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops." - -And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and I -am with the United States Secret Service, and here is my commission -book." - -I held it out in front of him and he said, "I don't want to look at it." - -And he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. And he said, -"What am I going to be charged with? Why am I being held here? Isn't -someone supposed to tell me what my rights are?" - -I said, "Yes, I will tell you what your rights are. Your rights are -the same as that of any American citizen. You do not have to make a -statement unless you want to. You have the right to get an attorney." - -Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? - -No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney. - -Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? - -I said, "No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if I got -you an attorney, they would say I was probably getting a rakeoff on the -fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break -the ice a little bit there. - -I said, "You can have the telephone book and you can call anybody you -want to." - -I said, "I just want to ask you some questions. I am in on this -investigation. I just want to ask you some questions." - -Mr. STERN. Was there anything further said about an attorney? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall at that time. I don't recall anything -further said about an attorney. I asked him where he worked. He told me -worked at this Book Depository. And as I recall it, I asked him what -his address was, and where he was living, and he explained to me that -he was living apart from his wife, and that she was living over in -Irving, Tex. I asked him, as I recall it, what his duties were at this -Book Depository, and he said filling orders. - -I asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and he -said, yes. - -I asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the -building. He said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors. - -But he said most of his activity was down on the first floor. - -And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign -country, and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had -been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it. - -And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions." - -And so the conversation was terminated. - -Mr. STERN. Did he give you his address? - -Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't -remember what it was offhand. - -Mr. STERN. Then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse -to answer any more? - -Mr. SORRELS. He just said, "I don't care to answer any more questions." - -Mr. STERN. You wanted to ask him other questions? - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. STERN. And what happened then? - -Mr. SORRELS. He was taken by the officers, as I recall it, and was -taken out of that area and I suppose put back in jail. - -Mr. STERN. Did you then talk to Captain Fritz? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I recall it, I asked Captain Fritz whether or not -he had gotten anything out of him or not, and Captain Fritz said that -he hadn't been able--that he had not made any admissions or anything -like that at that time, and that he was going to talk to him again. - -That is all I recall that transpired at that time. - -Of course I contacted the Chief's office, when I got that information -as to who he was, and gave that information to them. - -Mr. STERN. This is Chief Rowley? - -Mr. SORRELS. I think I talked to Deputy Chief Paterni. - -Mr. STERN. Of the Secret Service here in Washington? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire between that time and the Friday -night showup? - -Mr. SORRELS. I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. -When I contacted Washington, I was informed that Inspector Kelley -was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that -evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come -there to help out. - -I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, -Brennan, that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him -to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that -would be fine. - -So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had -located Brennan--had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he -wasn't at home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help -me locate him, and she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she -could locate him by phone. I called her, I believe, the second time and -finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like -for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to -pick him up at the place there. And when they came down there with him, -I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, -Mr. Brennan. - -He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got -through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up." - -So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also -where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police -station, said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because -I have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he -said, "I just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" -because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his -shirt was open or something like that, and he said "The man I saw was -not in that condition." - -So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to -get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the -distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting -took place as he could. - -And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can -move up forward." - -They did bring Oswald in in a lineup. - -He looked very carefully, and then we moved him up closer and so forth, -and he said, "I cannot positively say." - -I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?" - -He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was Oswald--"he -looks like him." - -Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled. - -Now, mind you, Oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black -eye, a bruised eye. - -Mr. STERN. When you say "over here"---- - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, on the left side. He had a mark on his forehead, and -his left eye was a bit puffed. - -Mr. STERN. How many other people were in the lineup? - -Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told -there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five. - -Mr. STERN. Were the others reasonably similar to Oswald in height and -physical appearance, and color? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Dress? - -Mr. SORRELS. I noted that to me I thought it was a very fair lineup, -because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or -anyone a lot shorter. They didn't have any big fat ones or anything -like that. - -In other words, to me it was a good lineup. - -Mr. STERN. At that time, did Mr. Brennan say anything else to you that -you have not told us, or to anyone else? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. He says, "I am sorry, but I can't do -it. I was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. I just -can't be positive. I am sorry." - -Mr. STERN. As far as you know, had Mr. Brennan been interviewed by -anyone after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time -you had him brought to the police headquarters? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. STERN. Was he then interviewed by anyone? - -Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say. - -Mr. STERN. Did you arrange for him to return to his home? - -Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I did. I told him "they will take you back -to your home." - -Mr. STERN. Immediately after the lineup? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Brennan again after that day? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have. - -Mr. STERN. When was that? - -Mr. SORRELS. We were assisting the Commission in locating witnesses to -come to Washington, to the Commission, and I got in touch with him and -arranged for him to go and procured his ticket and delivered his ticket -to him. - -Mr. STERN. And when you talked to him then, did he say anything that -bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after -this interview with Oswald that you have told us about, do you recall -talking to any representative of the FBI? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Who was that? - -Mr. SORRELS. Now, let's get that question again, because I talked to -them several times down there. - -When was that you said? - -Mr. STERN. After you interviewed Oswald. - -Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes, yes. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know an FBI agent attached to the Dallas office named -James Hosty? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. STERN. Did you talk to Mr. Hosty that you recall? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would -remember that? - -Mr. SORRELS. I think I would remember it. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall his being there? - -Mr. SORRELS. I think I saw him there. - -Now, whether it was on the 22d or not, but I think during along this -period, I saw him there one time. - -But I don't recall talking to Mr. Hosty at all down there. - -Mr. STERN. Did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that -they had talked to Hosty? Or that Hosty had told them anything? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I think Special Agent Patterson, I believe, said that -he had seen Hosty down there, and that Hosty, I believe, had said that -he had a file on Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall anything else that Agent Patterson told you -that Mr. Hosty had told him? - -Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot recall anything else. Because I had -information--had also gotten information from others. In other words, -there was general information around the Police Department there that -the FBI had a file on this individual. - -Mr. STERN. Any other of your agents tell you that Hosty had said -anything to them about Oswald that you can recall? - -Mr. SORRELS. You mean at that specific date, regarding that specific -date? - -Mr. STERN. Either on Friday or on Saturday. - -Mr. SORRELS. No. During the course of this thing, it was my -understanding that--I don't remember how the information came to -me--that Hosty had been checking on this Oswald, and that they had -information or knew that he was in this building. I cannot pinpoint it -any way specifically, because the information came several different -times to that effect. - -Mr. STERN. Now, you told us something of Oswald's physical appearance -when you saw him at the interview. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And at the showup. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did his appearance change in the course of that time? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. - -Mr. STERN. Over that 3-day period, did you see any sign that force or -any other form of coercion was used on Oswald by anyone? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you observe or hear of any intimidation of Oswald or the -offer of any benefit to Oswald if he were to confess? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of -Oswald following your own brief interrogation? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. When was that? - -Mr. SORRELS. On the following day---- - -Mr. STERN. That is Saturday, the 23d? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with -Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was -shot. - -Mr. STERN. Did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer -for Oswald? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was -in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the -name of Abt, or some similar name like that. I never had heard of him -before. Apt, or some similar name. - -And Captain Fritz said, "Well, you can use the phone and you can call -him." - -Mr. STERN. When was this? - -Mr. SORRELS. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that -Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone. - -Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe it? - -Mr. SORRELS. I did not observe that; no. - -Mr. STERN. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the -American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. He said if he could not get this man--I wish I could -remember his name--a very short name, Apt or something like that. - -Mr. STERN. A-b-t? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, A-b-t. Yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a -lawyer supplied by the Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. STERN. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can -remember? - -Mr. SORRELS. He was questioned about the rifle, because, at that -time, as I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been -purchased from Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the -name of A. Hidell. And he was questioned by Captain Fritz along those -lines. And he denied that the rifle was his. He denied knowing or using -the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell. - -He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time -still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were, -of course, directed towards getting information. A lot of them he -would not answer. And a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent -falsehoods. - -And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and -deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to -become angered, because he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner -from time to time. - -Mr. STERN. But you think that was acting--not genuine? - -Mr. SORRELS. That is the impression I got, that he was just -deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe -get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he -shouldn't do. - -That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason--I guess -one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview, -on Sunday morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different -attitude. In other words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't -giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't -flaring up like he did before. - -Mr. STERN. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you -know of that it was scheduled to end? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the -impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the -morning, and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in -the morning--we were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came -around and asked Captain Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was -holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and -get him moved as quick as they could. - -Mr. STERN. Did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to -move him at 10 o'clock? - -Mr. SORRELS. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter -of fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me -afterwards, he said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk, -I hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told Chief -Curry, "We will be through in a few minutes." - -And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him -any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained -a change of address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in -which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was -to receive mail at that particular address in New Orleans was named A. -Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald about that thing, because he -had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of A. Hidell, and he -denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell. - -So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him, "Now, -here is a change of address card that you filed in New Orleans," and he -looked at it. - -He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently -in his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that -you have not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card -here as the name of A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this -address. If you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have -that name on that card?" - -He said, "I never used the name of Hidell." - -Mr. STERN. That was the last question he was asked? - -Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know. - -Mr. STERN. And then what happened? - -Mr. SORRELS. He was told that they were going to move him to the -county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out -of his--the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, -because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended -was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz -sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark -colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was -taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I -left and went up to--I say up--down the hall to the executive office -area of the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief -Batchelor. - -And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw -the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting -there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby -Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and -pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He -was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there -at the police station. And we were just waiting around there. - -And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that -was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking -about open windows, I see one open across the street over there" at a -building across the street. - -I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we -had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the -Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just -heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack -Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run -a night club. - -Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the -basement. - -Mr. STERN. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the -relevant information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert -yesterday. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. And actually back just a little bit. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your -interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify -anything you said yesterday to him? - -Mr. SORRELS. We were trying to establish something about the time -yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not -fix any exact time. - -But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been -shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into -the basement of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still -on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as I -said yesterday, and I immediately called my headquarters office in -Washington and told them about Oswald being shot by Jack Rubin, a -night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get additional -information and call them back. - -And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went -back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there -when I left and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my -thought was to talk to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could. - -Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I -asked where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I -would like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail -elevator, went right on up there. So---- - -Mr. STERN. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call -to Deputy Chief---- - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after -thinking the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at -the time this call was made, I would say that that phone call was -probably made between 11:25 and 11:30, I would say. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. - -Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police -the plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the -move was made? - -Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10 -o'clock in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz--and as I recall this -conversation--I said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an -announced time. I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, -when there is nobody around." - -And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these -people," talking about the press and television people, and said that -he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them -all he can. And that was all that was said about that. - -I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with -Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was -trying to tell them how to run their business. - -Mr. STERN. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of -police headquarters from Friday through Sunday? - -Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to -actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people -just, as the expression goes, took over. I would almost every time -I went up there, definitely after the 22d, I would have to identify -myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor, -if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office -or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through, -and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost -that I would come out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door -opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and I got where I -just shadowed my eyes when I walked down there to keep the light from -shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one of the deputy -chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side -of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could -get power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down -to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And -it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost -indescribable. - -I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas -Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office -with Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange -for her to get up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was -stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time -keeping them--I thought they were going to barge on in there. They were -yelling like mad--because Mr. Underwood was in there, and one of them -was there yelling--"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a -right to be in there." - -Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz' -office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying -to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--I am not going -upstairs." - -That was just the situation you were booked up against there. - -And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me -something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to -make." - -And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement -made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr. -Kelley, the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will -have to come from Inspector Peterson in Washington." - -Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't -bother me any more. - -Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they -would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would -say, "That is Sorrels of the Secret Service." - -That happened more than once. - -And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The -officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me -and pass me through. - -Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were -in that corridor? - -Mr. SORRELS. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but -there were dozens of them. - -Mr. STERN. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the -corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of? - -Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ever learn why this was not done--did you ever ask? - -Mr. SORRELS. No, I did not. I just thought to myself--well, if this was -being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist. -That is what I thought. - -But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself--well, -they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting -them out. That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do -know that the Dallas Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office, -they do try to go along with the press and everything like that. - -After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before, -who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times -Herald, he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of -there, and that includes us." - -Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief -Curry or anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of -there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have -really blasted them in the press. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, that covers the ground that I wanted to ask you -about. - -Is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this -morning with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in -front of the Book Depository, your return there, anything that elapsed -while you were at the police headquarters from Friday afternoon through -Sunday morning--or with respect to anything you told Mr. Hubert about -yesterday? - -Just take a moment and think about it. - -And if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you -have said that you think the Commission should know, please tell me. - -Mr. SORRELS. I cannot recall anything right now, Mr. Stern. - -Mr. STERN. I would like you to identify this one page memorandum -entitled "Statement of Forrest V. Sorrels, Special Agent in Charge, -U.S. Secret Service, Dallas, Tex., November 28, 1963." - -I have marked this "Exhibit 5," deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, -1964. - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that I wrote up. - -Mr. STERN. Would you initial that for me, please? - -Mr. SORRELS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Would you review the statement and see if there is anything -you would like to add to it? - -I think you might just tell us what it covers. - -Mr. SORRELS. This is a statement which was written up by me on November -28, 1963, relating the fact that the presidential motorcade---- - -Mr. STERN. The statement will be in the record, Mr. Sorrels. I meant -just tell us the subject matter of it. - -Mr. SORRELS. Relating to the events that I observed when the -presidential motorcade went from Love Field until the time that I left -the Parkland Hospital to go to the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to add to that statement that -you have not already told us--because we have gone into this in much -greater detail now. - -Mr. SORRELS. No, not that I can recall, because as you say we went into -it in more detail. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Sorrels. We appreciate very much -your coming to Washington to help us. - -Mr. SORRELS. I want to express my appreciation to you and to the -Commission for permitting me to not come on the week of the 19th, -due to the fact that my little daughter had to go to the hospital. I -certainly appreciate your consideration in letting me come at a later -date. - -Mr. STERN. We were very happy we could arrange that, and we are glad to -know she is well. - -Mr. SORRELS. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN - -The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 -West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly -sworn, was examined and testified as follows: - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name? - -Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman. - -Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman? - -Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago. - -Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years. - -Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your -general areas of work? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, -participating in the merchandising and advertising. - -Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty -items which appeal to the male consumer. - -Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting -items? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the -products handled by Klein's are rifles? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question? - -Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their -line of sporting goods? - -Mr. WALDMAN. They do. - -Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of -your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago? - -Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. -Education: I don't know just what you're after. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school? - -Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of -Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you -want this developed. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do? - -Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and -Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the -U.S. Army, Air Corps branch. - -Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II? - -Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a -brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting -Goods. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes? - -Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to -Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, -19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling -for 200 units at a cost of $8.50. - -Mr. BELIN. Now---- - -Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a -photostatic copy of a document, is it not? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It is. - -Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared -by someone under your direction or supervision? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I -originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. -It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time -in which it was needed, and---- - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M. W." - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower left-hand corner of -Exhibit 1? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It is. - -Mr. BELIN. And that is who? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. He was. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? - -Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under -the direct supervision of Sam Kasper. - -Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now? - -Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here. - -Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company. - -Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what -Deposition Exhibit 1 constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up -where you left off here. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of -the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column -which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made -to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the -two dates here. - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. - -Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise -came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in -which they were officially received by our receiving department. - -Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the -physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that -correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they -frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was -received by us. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1 a -date--well, I might read everything under the column of description; it -says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; -and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 -mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, -then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that -date and that description. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of -different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor -modifications made by--developed by each of the manufacturers. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making -the Springfield rifle in this country? - -Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the -Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general -design, but as I say, there were details that were different. - -We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was -known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model -known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under -the item number--some letters here or numbers---- - -Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749. - -Mr. BELIN. What does that signify? - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for -internal operating purposes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Off the record now. Can I speak without being---- - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. On the record. - -Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me -that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only -number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have -any other numbers assigned to them? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number? - -Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope -and mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the -rifle, the scope and the mount. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes -and mounts? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source -as the rifle itself? - -Mr. WALDMAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the -date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you -received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers -as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed -from one model to another, both models being very similar. - -Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. What is it? - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast -Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, -1963, from Crescent Firearms. - -Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 2 that says. "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, -2-21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time? - -Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving -department at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been -packed in each carton or case? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of -which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; -these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated -there were 10 rifles in each case. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing -serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these -represents those rifles that were contained in a case. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the -case. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular -company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos -separately with their invoice. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a -photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in -front of you at this time? - -Mr. WALDMAN. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate -photostat of these other copies? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It is. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers -with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first -photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that? - -Mr. WALDMAN. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats -and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, -C-2766. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton -or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it? - -Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766. - -Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in -your possession which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat -of; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your -procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the -rifles? - -Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a -number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our -possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with -both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which -is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give -different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each -gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique -identification for each gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control -number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that -is imprinted in the frame of the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in -front of you on your desk right now? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the -serial number C-2766? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on -their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles -were shipped to you? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn -Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement -agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had -the serial number C-2766 on it? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted -our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our -possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your -company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this -serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this -information? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it -for a fact. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were -contacted by the FBI? - -Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22? - -Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they -felt you might have received this rifle originally? - -Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records -the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a -record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date -of receipt by us, and from that we made--let's see, we examined our -microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and -related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been -shipped by us. - -Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording -of transactions of your company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 -and ask you if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that--of mail order -transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to -the FBI. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that -microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on -the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the -investigation. - -Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the -microfilm prints? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to -take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the -appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm -machine.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call -D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and -you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is -this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification -purposes. - -Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it -shows this particular rifle was shipped to? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name--H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office -Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. And does it show any serial number or control number? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number -VC-836 and serial number C-2766. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a -total of $21.45. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this -number? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog -number. - -Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification -or description. Can you state what that is? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an -Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm -record? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle -around the letters "PP." - -Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order -itself? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was -$21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here. - -Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received -the money? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" -designating money order. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, -March 13, 1963; to what does that refer? - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating -that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our -register on that date. - -Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with -the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative -frame that we are looking at right now? - -Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from -a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of -the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; -and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name -A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was -mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner the return address -of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex. - -There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, -indicating that the order was mailed by airmail. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper -right-hand corner? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that -correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's true. - -Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these -negatives? - -(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.) - -Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony -has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the -actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking -of this testimony, please. - -(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the -deposition originally commenced.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 -on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with -your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the -microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs. - -Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer -of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office -Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the -order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us -internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon -taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine. - -Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the -microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from -the microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and -the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you -advertise in gun magazines? - -Mr. WALDMAN. We do. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which -this coupon might have been taken? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American -Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the -department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as -Department 358 on the coupon. - -Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope -to you, is that correct, or to your company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, -plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. -788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order -of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named -A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box -No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and -underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the -reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank. - -I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine -it, please. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order -of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 -space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, -Inc." - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's -endorsement on that money order? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement. - -Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is. - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that -shown on the money order in question. - -Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 -with your endorsement stamp? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order -was deposited by your company? - -Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was -deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order -for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---- - -Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. -7? - -Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we -cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our -deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on -the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit No. 10. - -Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading -from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of -Chicago by your company; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a -total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, you -had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when -you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four -numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you -tell us what accounts for the difference? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control -numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. -The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. -C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, -which is sold as a package unit. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the -scope? - -Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95. - -Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of -February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or -without the scope, if you remember? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it -did. Most usually we did. - -Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what -manner? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or -whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog -numbers. - -Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already -mounted on it when you got it from Crescent? - -Mr. WALDMAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun shop, most -probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp. - -Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the -mounting and do the actual mounting then himself? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way -sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing -with the sight? - -Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rife of this sort -that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the -rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the -scope? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from -Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard. Culver City, Calif. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you -know? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics." - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the -microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as -Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on -this at all which indicate which microfilm this is? - -Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions -Nos. 269688 through 270596. - -Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control -number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit -No. 7 as being number what? - -Mr. WALDMAN. 270502. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, -which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this -shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit -No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped -on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to -verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman -Deposition Exhibit No. 3? - -Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial -numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. -3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in -that shipment. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms---- - -Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition -Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, -which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower -portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in -with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was -written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and -attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle -was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you -know whether or not it was? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated -on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope -attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer -specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There -is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made -by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe -that it was shipped as a rifle with scope mounted. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken -down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully -assembled? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and -scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this -particular one would have been shipped otherwise. - -Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have -been shipped? - -Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes -attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd -Container Corporation of Chicago. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any -wrapping paper or tape to the FBI? - -Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with -the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper -that may have been used for inner cushioning packing. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the -microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear -than the photostats or prints that have been made from it? - -Mr. WALDMAN. More clear. - -Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm -itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies? - -Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your -company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we -know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could -have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was -purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for -your cooperation. - -Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. -Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before -anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, -whatever you like. - -Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the -possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the -recording. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original -copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other -copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever -corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and -I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR - -The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 -West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly -sworn, was examined and testified as follows: - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor. - -Mr. BELIN. And where do you live? - -Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods. - -Mr. BELIN. In what capacity? - -Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law -enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this? - -Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it -would be possible to get at the records--at our records to see if that -gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one -of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came -down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here? - -Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went -in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as -getting--trying to find the information that we needed. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information? - -Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise -for that particular gun. - -The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the -gun from Crescent Firearms. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or -your sales or what? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of -our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number. - -Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the -microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; -is that correct? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial -No. C-2766? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 -the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe -that you had shipped this particular rifle? - -Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you -know--strike the question. - -I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which -Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print? - -Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the morning, as far as I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman -Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to -identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking -number or control number along with the serial number so at a future -date we can identify that particular gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper left-hand -corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what -that has reference to? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and -that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving -department on 2-22-63. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms. - -Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38. 6.5 Italian caliber rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper right-hand -corner, what does that have reference to? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. -I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always -fill--in the same rotation as they come out of. - -Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all? - -Mr. SCIBOR. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers -are assigned by people under your supervision? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people -making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general -background. You might state where you were born and what educational -background you have, for the record. - -Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 -years of high school, 6-1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's -Sporting Goods. - -Mr. BELIN. You're married? - -Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18---- - -Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years. - -Mr. BELIN. And you're married? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily? - -Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a desk drawer back in the receiving -department, which I designated that those should be filed. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind -that has these control numbers on them? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking -department, and those are put into a master book, control book. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of -guns? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your -control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your control number? - -Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836. - -Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on -Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns. - -Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun? - -Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns. - -Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in -helping obtaining this information. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS - -The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, -1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles. Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. -Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. -Rose, president of George Rose & Co., was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz W. Michaelis, M-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s. - -Mr. BALL. What is your first name? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz, H-e-i-n-z. - -Mr. BALL. Heinz Michaelis. - -Mr. Michaelis, you received a letter last week from Mr. Rankin, counsel -for the Commission, did you not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was what date that you received it? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I received it on Thursday. - -Mr. BALL. That would be---- - -Mr. MICHAELIS. 11--the 7th. - -Mr. BALL. The 7th of May. And you were invited to give your testimony -today by way of this deposition, weren't you? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You are willing to do so, are you not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to -inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. 5227 West Olympic Boulevard. - -Mr. BALL. In Los Angeles? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Los Angeles. - -Mr. BALL. And your business address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Pardon me. Correction. 5755. I am sorry. - -Mr. BALL. And your business address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. 1200 North Soto, Los Angeles. - -Mr. BALL. Have you recently changed your business address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. From what address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. From 1225 South Grand Avenue. - -Mr. BALL. Are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some -company? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I work for the George Rose & Co. - -Mr. BALL. What business is the George Rose & Co. engaged in? - -Mr. ROSE. You work for Merchanteers. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Oh, pardon me; Merchanteers, Inc. - -Mr. BALL. Your immediate employer is Merchanteers, Inc.? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. - -Mr. BALL. Is that associated with the George Rose & Co.? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. In what business is Merchanteers, Inc., engaged? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. has mail order---- - -Mr. ROSE. Mail order and management. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. And management. - -Mr. BALL. And does it do work for George Rose & Co.? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Do I work for George Rose & Co.? - -Mr. ROSE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Well, Merchanteers, Inc.--it is the mail order agency for -George Rose & Co., is it? - -Mr. ROSE. No; may I clarify it? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; well, I better have him, and then I may ask you to -clarify it. - -Mr. ROSE. Yes; all right. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you know of the relationship between George Rose -& Co. and Merchanteers? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, Merchanteers. Inc. is a mail-order business. -But, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for -employees from the George Rose & Co. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what business is George Rose & Co. engaged in? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. George Rose & Co. are wholesalers and sell to retail -stores. - -Mr. BALL. What do they sell? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, -and various others. - -Mr. BALL. Does George Rose & Co. engage in any mail-order business? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yeah; we get mail orders, too. - -Mr. BALL. You take mail orders as George Rose & Co.? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. ROSE. Wholesale. - -Mr. BALL. At wholesale? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Wholesale, yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there is also a company called Seaport Traders, isn't -there? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders is another mail-order business. - -Mr. BALL. It is another mail-order business? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Do you work for them? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in a supervisory position. - -Mr. BALL. That is the company that you work for. Merchanteers, you say? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers; yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is it Merchanteers, Inc.? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.; yes. - -Mr. BALL. They manage the business of Seaport Traders? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Now, last fall did the Federal Bureau of Investigation visit -your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain Smith & -Wesson revolver? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. About what date? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I believe it was November the 30th, a Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. And in searching your records for any such sale, to what -particular record did you first look? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. We started first, after having received the serial -number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248. - -Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the -butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as -the crane number. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of -the gun. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel. - -Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the -gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on -the gun. - -Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is -that right? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are--it is required that since Smith & -Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the -so-called crane number. - -Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it -might be possible. - -Mr. BALL. What is the meaning of the word crane? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a -crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number. - -Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here. - -Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with -a black cover. Is that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting. - -Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten. - -Mr. BALL. When the agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation -called on you on Saturday, November 30, 1963, you looked to your book -that carries a record in handwriting of your sales? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you find this record of this particular gun? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I hand you here a document which is identified as FBI -Laboratory No. D-191, being a photostat. Do you recognize this? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Will you compare that with the page in your notebook? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the same. - -Mr. BALL. And that is identified in your notebook as Case No. 3? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Case No. 3. - -Mr. BALL. What is the significance of the words "Case No. 3"? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It is a listing of a case which we received. - -Mr. BALL. Of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. It also has a 99 enclosed in a circle. What is the -significance of that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I presume that is the contents, the piece contents of -the case. - -Mr. BALL. You found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that -would indicate what? That you had sold the gun at some time? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I would like to offer and have marked this photostat of -a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as Case No. 3, as -Exhibit No. 1 to this deposition of Mr. Michaelis. - -(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the -Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 1 for identification by -the notary public.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine -from what source you bought the gun? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And from whom? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Excuse me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you have before you now a file? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And does it refer to this particular purchase of 99 guns? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns. - -Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now -showing? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of -this gun; where you bought it and from whom. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., -360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec. - -Mr. BALL. And what date did you buy it? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Invoice No. 1181 dated October 13, 1962. - -Mr. BALL. And it was shipped to you by the Empire Wholesale Sporting -Goods, Ltd., on what date? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It went--it was on 10/19/62, in St. Albans, Vt., and -from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at -that time 1225 South Grand Avenue. However, the merchandise in question -did not arrive before January 3, 1963. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the date it did arrive? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. It was received January 3, 1963. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion held off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of -its barrel? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Five inches. - -Mr. BALL. And was it changed? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It was changed. - -Mr. BALL. To what? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. To a 2-1/4-inch barrel. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, we gave the guns out to Mr. L. M. Johnson and -instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are -concerned to our specifications. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you shorten them from 5 to 2-1/4 inches? Explain to -me for the record. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Because we have quite frequently calls for the Smith & -Wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as 2-1/4 inch or 4 inch. - -Mr. BALL. Did you shorten all of the consignment that you received? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Just a certain number? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from 5 to 2-1/4? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Johnson's number--and is that M. L. Johnson? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; just a minute. Or L. M. It is M. L. - -Mr. BALL. And what is his address? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. At that time, 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, Calif. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; mail order. - -Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission -Exhibit No. 135. Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you -ever saw that before? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th. - -Mr. BALL. The first time? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on -November 30? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, -the red copy. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do -with filling that order? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No. - -Mr. BALL. What is your position here? Do you have charge of the office? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I am manager. - -Mr. BALL. You are manager of the office? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And all of these records are under your control, are they? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, not particularly at that time because my actual -supervision of the Seaport Traders, Inc., activities started later -during the year. I mean in September and October, when the girl in -charge left. - -Mr. BALL. At least in November you were in charge and in possession of -all of the records of the Seaport Traders? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. You have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by -which the gun was shipped and sold? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Not prior to the first investigation. - -Mr. BALL. But you are providing me with records which were under your -control as of November 1963? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; correct. - -Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me who would have actually received the -mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and -shipped it? Do you know what person would have done this? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. There are various operations. The order was received -by---- - -Mr. ROSE. I probably would have opened it. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the -mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at -that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n. - -Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice -No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and -packer. - -Mr. BALL. What is the name? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. This is a title, order filler and packer. She is one -person. - -Mr. BALL. What is that last word? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Packer. - -Mr. BALL. Packer. I see. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. And the order was shipped on March the 20th, 1963. - -Mr. BALL. You have been testifying from a record which you have before -you? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And that is a paper which has been marked for identification -by the Federal Bureau of Investigation DL-28, Seaport Traders, Inc., -No. A-5371. - -Is that correct? You have been testifying from information contained on -that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. That was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its -significance in your business? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. This particular document is, after the order is -processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective -customer. - -Mr. BALL. You mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail -order coupon, 135, has been packed and shipped, this invoice A-5371, is -filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct; filed under the name of the respective customer. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.0. Box 2915, -Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. -What is the meaning of that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description -which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a -higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify -between the two types, we have this type described as Commando. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question. - -Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is -the significance of that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 -in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped -with a c.o.d. for the balance of $19.95. - -Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What was that? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20. - -Mr. BALL. 1963? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963. - -Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. -A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis. - -(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the -Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by -the notary public.) - -Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 -which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that -document is? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 -which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the -numerical order. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of -1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and -copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in -quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the -office and is filed on a numerical order. - -The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the -invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part -used as a packing slip. - -The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the -respective customer after the order has been shipped. - -The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on -the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective -customer. - -Mr. BALL. What statement? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said -that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and -that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, -territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me---- - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this -statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular -case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we -have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular -mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the -witness. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is -Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together -with the witness? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l. - -Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the -purchaser? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have -identified? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3. - -(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the -Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by -the notary public.) - -Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow. - -Mr. BALL. Yellow. That is the packing slip copy? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that -correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that -correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original -records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the -request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is -that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of -red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore -identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute. I have to get the original. Now, this -exhibit number---- - -Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from -the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton -with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. -It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect -a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the -original receipt, which is 70638. - -Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt. - -Mr. BALL. Is this it here? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Except by name, is that right? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name. - -Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol. - -Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked -as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt. - -(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the -Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by -the notary public.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of -Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway -Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name -of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, -in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit -the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the -c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the -consignee. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5. - -(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the -Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by -the notary public.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency -receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief -of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were -in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of -this pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway -Express did remit to you the $19.95? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green -one? - -Mr. BALL. Five. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice. - -Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being---- - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit -number---- - -Mr. BALL. Two. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal -Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes. - -Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original -documents, are they not? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf -notebook? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have -any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this -particular parcel. - -Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of -here in a year? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. In 1 year? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate. - -Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders? - -Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's. - -Mr. BALL. Well, about how many? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough -guess, Mr. Ball. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have -sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year. - -Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order---- - -Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from -Seaport Traders. - -Mr. BALL. 120 or 125? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, of this particular type of gun. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular -transaction that you would like to tell me? - -Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this -transaction. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF J. C. CASON - -The following affidavit was executed by J. C. Cason on May 22, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer, of the Texas School Book -Depository declare the following statements: - -The Texas School Book Depository was organized in 1908 as a sole -proprietorship and continued in this manner until 1927 when it was -incorporated under the laws of the State of Texas. - -The Corporation's offices are located at Elm and Houston Streets, -Dallas, Texas, and its warehouse and storage plant are located at 1917 -North Houston Street, Dallas, Texas. It neither owns nor operated any -other buildings in Dallas or in any other city. - -The present officers are: J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer; and -O. V. Campbell, Vice President and Secretary. The Directors are: J. -C. Cason, O. V. Campbell and R. S. Truly. The Shareholders of all -outstanding Capital Stock are J. C. Cason and O. V. Campbell. - -The Corporation acts as an independent agency for a group of -thirty-three publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to the -various schools in the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, -and New Mexico. It has no other business activity other than that afore -mentioned. It is not connected in any way with any state or municipal -government and operates solely as a private Corporation with a Charter -from the State of Texas. - -Signed the 22d day of May 1964. - - (S) J. C. Cason, - J. C. CASON. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF C. N. DHORITY - -The following affidavit was executed by C. N. Dhority on May 12, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss:_ - -Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State -of Texas, on this day personally appeared Detective C. N. Dhority, -Dallas Police Department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath -deposes and says: - -The night of November 22, 1963 Captain J. W. Fritz gave me three 6.5 -rifle hulls and told me to give them to Lt. J. C. Day in the Crime Lab. -Captain J. W. Fritz told me to have Lt. Day to dust them for prints -and return one of the 6.5 hulls to him. I took these three 6.5 rifle -hulls to Lt. Day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been -previously marked by Det. R. M. Sims. Lt. Day dusted the shells for -prints and gave me one back. I returned this 6.5 shell back to Captain -J. W. Fritz. - -Signed this 12th day of May 1964. - - (S) C. N. Dhority, - C. N. DHORITY. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROY S. TRULY - -The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. -I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don't know that it -is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a -continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn't I? - -Mr. TRULY. Oh, no; I gave a statement that was under oath. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, no; this is a deposition. You appeared before the -Commission--that's right. - -Mr. TRULY. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before -I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a -recorded deposition. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn't -record that. You weren't under oath then. Will you stand up and be -sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. TRULY. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Now, will you state your name, please? - -Mr. TRULY. Roy S. Truly. - -Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. TRULY. That's correct. - -Mr. BALL. Is that your title? - -Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. - -Mr. BALL. You have been employed by the Depository for a number of -years? - -Mr. TRULY. Since 1934; since 1934. - -Mr. BALL. You testified before the Commission in Washington, you say, -on the 24th of March 1964; did you not? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the -Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the -attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire -about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will -be in addition to the testimony you have already given. - -Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20. - -Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they? - -Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster. - -Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two -guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask -you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that -time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TRULY. Never before. - -Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20, -and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School -Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination. - -Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers? - -Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers. - -Mr. BALL. Carried by police officers? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; and I saw a rifle being carried from the building. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You saw that in place on the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. TRULY. I only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door. - -Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion -besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TRULY. Never. - -Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren -Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under -which you saw these guns? - -Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the -lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the -first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just -purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two -and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that -it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time -Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go -deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to -buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for -his boy. - -Mr. BALL. Did you handle the .22 rifle? - -Mr. TRULY. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. You did see it, though? - -Mr. TRULY. I did see it. - -Mr. BALL. Was it out of the carton? - -Mr. TRULY. The carton was open, I believe, and I saw it. I don't recall -picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but I could see it lying -in the bottom part of the carton. - -Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out? - -Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of -sighting it, but not cocking it--just looking at it. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. -Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. TRULY. He is manager of the miscellaneous department. - -Mr. BALL. Was this in the open warehouse? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; right at the front. Mr. Caster had placed the cartons -on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were -when I saw them, and I picked one up out of the cartons. - -Mr. BALL. And were they employees of the Texas School Book Depository -company on the first floor at that time? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; they were--as I recall the time--that the boys had -probably gone back to work and could have been walking around before -they went in the shipping department. - -Mr. BALL. That would have been about what time of the day? - -Mr. TRULY. I'd say around 1 o'clock--very close to it. It could have -been a little after or a little before. The boys go back to lunch at -12:45, so there I'm not too clear. - -Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster -got during the noon hour? - -Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried -them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them again? - -Mr. TRULY. Never--never. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see from that day until Friday, November 22, did -you ever see those guns in the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission -you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain -Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after -the rifle had been found on the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the time -the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, -but when I told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief -Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he -went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding -him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz." - -Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from -the roof of the building? - -Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin -that, "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean -anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other -warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could -get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so -I could be more accurate than I would be. - -Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing? - -Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was -one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in -front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun. - -Mr. BALL. But walking which way? - -Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston -Street, east on Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards? - -Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the -employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with -them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short -time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"? - -Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom? - -Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom. - -Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he -said No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I -didn't know where Captain Fritz was. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or -after you called to the warehouse and got the name? - -Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the -warehouse and got the address? - -Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in -your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or -something so I would remember it. - -Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form -for employment? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address? - -Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all. - -Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? - -Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the -rifle. - -Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? - -Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the -building? - -Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. - -Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was -found? - -Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the -sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your -talk with Fritz? - -Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on -the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth -floor, didn't you? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? - -Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that -this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving -address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had -been found? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- - -Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. - -Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned -the rifle was found, but I did not see it. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz -the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle -was found? - -Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. - -Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz--after what, -you tell me? - -Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth -floor, Captain Fritz was standing in the area where I later learned -they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that -Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, -so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other -men--officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I -repeated the words to Captain Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing--I told him what his -name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. -Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left -the sixth floor shortly. - -While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked -over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where -did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to -Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and -sometime--someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know -who it was. - -Mr. BALL. About that time? - -Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and -I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the -sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I -don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else -on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no -occasion to go back up there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best -estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his -address? - -Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 -minutes. - -Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? - -Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? - -Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you -exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not -found until after 1 o'clock. - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found -the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some -other place. - -Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the -gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is -that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz -was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found -it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after 1 o'clock, when was it that -you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? - -Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the -assassination, but it could have been longer. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 -minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? - -Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. - -Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? - -Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came -down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my -memory. - -Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed -he wasn't there? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't think so--I don't feel like at was. It could have -possibly been so. - -Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't -found before that, can you give me any estimate? - -Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee -Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until -Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time -you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the -name and address? - -Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. - -Mr. BALL. Immediately? - -Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his -name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told -Captain Fritz at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. - -Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three -officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few -things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Not over that? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All -right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this." - -Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it -might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald -wasn't there? - -Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been. - -Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was -not there? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it -was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after -retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have -to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it -could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of -the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in -and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that -this boy wasn't among the other workers. - -Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you? - -Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain -Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had -been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in -the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that -there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that -time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a -newspaper reporter told me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there -afterwards? - -Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I -had seen him walk across the street--up the street. - -Mr. BALL. Toward what? - -Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Toward Main--down toward Main? - -Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing -Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that -time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, -that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman--there were two or -three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they -started across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to -the right across Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front -of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you? - -Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before -the shooting--I believe they were the three. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm? - -Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them. - -Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into the -building? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there--I -noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but -whether they completed it--I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens? - -Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of -the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction? - -Mr. TRULY. Walking east. - -Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm? - -Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the -street--Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later? - -Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did. - -Mr. BALL. When--how much later? - -Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose--I don't know his actions during that -day. - -Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building? - -Mr. TRULY. No. - -Mr. BALL. After the shooting? - -Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the -building--I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I -know he was at the police station later on. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now. - -(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301 -Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the -deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm -Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:) - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker -you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators? - -Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor. - -Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You are sure of that? - -Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level. - -Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any -of the floors? - -Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, -but west one was not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was? - -Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't -upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere. - -Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator? - -Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor. - -Mr. BALL. That's all. - -Mr. TRULY. Fine. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WARREN CASTER - -The testimony of Warren Caster was taken at 2 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in -the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Caster, would you please stand up and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CASTER. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name, please? - -Mr. CASTER. Warren Caster. - -Mr. BALL. And where do you live? - -Mr. CASTER. 3338 Merrell. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. CASTER. Textbook publishing. - -Mr. BALL. Are you with some company? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. -with offices at 411 Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. CASTER. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with -the Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and where you were raised and educated? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, -received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las -Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started -to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of -about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy. - -Mr. BALL. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School -Book Depository Building? - -Mr. CASTER. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository -Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied -three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co. - -Mr. BALL. Your office is on which floor? - -Mr. CASTER. Second floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon -hour. - -Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they? - -Mr. CASTER. They were my guns. - -Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they? - -Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the -other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser. - -Mr. BALL. Who owned them? - -Mr. CASTER. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day. - -Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about it--what were the circumstances of the -purchase? - -Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had -lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris -sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday--I -beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while -I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the -same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years -been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one -that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there. - -Mr. BALL. And did they box them up? - -Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they -were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School -Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped -by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles -that I had purchased. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly? - -Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were -there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there--and Mr. Roy Truly. The only -people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers -there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even -tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository -workers there in the shipping department. - -Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there? - -Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just -there over the counter. - -Mr. BALL. In the warehouse? - -Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the -counter in front of the warehouse; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton. - -Mr. BALL. Did you handle them? - -Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns? - -Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley -had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive. - -Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, -just estimate it. - -Mr. CASTER. Well, it couldn't have been more than 10 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that? - -Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my -office. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that? - -Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock -and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my -car and carried them home. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book -Depository Building thereafter? - -Mr. CASTER. They have never been back to the Texas School Book -Depository Building since then. - -Mr. BALL. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. CASTER. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be written up and you will be -asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you -can correct it if you wish. - -Mr. CASTER. That's all right. - -Mr. BALL. Any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and -initial it and sign it. I want to thank you very much for giving this -testimony. - -Mr. CASTER. I thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER - -The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 4 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at -the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph -A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. You understand since this is a continuation of your -deposition you are under oath still? - -Mr. PIPER. Thank you; I appreciate it. - -Mr. BALL. Your deposition has been taken? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. I'm going to just ask you a few questions. - -Mr. PIPER. Sure, that's all right. - -Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the -floor? - -Mr. PIPER. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the -shooting was who? - -Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow--I really don't know who it was; -like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly. - -Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed? - -Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Was he an officer? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer. - -Mr. BALL. A police officer? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on? - -Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I -was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running -into the building. - -Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just -hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," -and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up--on up -the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was -standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different -ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out. - -Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps? - -Mr. PIPER. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down--I really don't know -who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the -steps. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it -was after I got over here and walked over to the back door. - -Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up -the steps? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald--did -you notice he wasn't around? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I -just figured all the people was there. - -Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us about that. - -Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup? - -Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our -name and address and just to go home. - -Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean? - -Mr. PIPER. The detective--whoever it was. - -Mr. BALL. The police? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to -locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then -go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement -and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes -and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name -and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I -guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out -the front door. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say something to anybody about not seeing Oswald -there? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't say it, but I just saw he wasn't in the -lineup--I didn't tell anyone because I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. Just tell us what did you notice? - -Mr. PIPER. I noticed he was not in the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. You noticed that he was not in the lineup? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't mention it to anybody? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't mention it but I knows he wasn't in the -lineup, and Charles--I don't know whether he was, but he went out for -lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Was Charles Givens there? - -Mr. PIPER. I couldn't remember seeing him. He went out for lunch and -I don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not -because I was getting dressed to get out of there myself. - -Mr. BALL. That's all. - -Mr. PIPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY - -The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a -continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you -understand that? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School -Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter. - -Mr. BALL. And how did they get there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them -in and stopped by to see us. - -Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22. - -Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too--there was, wasn't -there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been -converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06 - -Mr. BALL. Did you handle that? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No. - -Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he -puts them back in the box and goes out of the door. - -Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date -and the time the President was shot? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is -the last time you saw Oswald? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? - -Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at anytime after 12? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in -the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald -to go home? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the -shooting, do you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where -there was a window open? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Not all the way; they had it blocked off. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at a later time go over there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for several days afterwards. - -Mr. BALL. Did you several days afterward go over there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. -We kept out for several days. - -Mr. BALL. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on -top of a larger box? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. -The boxes--the Rolling Readers were there. - -Mr. BALL. They were? - -Mr. SHELLEY. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were -gone--they had been carried up to the police station. - -Mr. BALL. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on -the top? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I -believe you testified, haven't you, before? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, -but it was at least three aisles. - -Mr. BALL. Away from the southeast corner? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from -this corner. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers -over there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out -of the stack and over there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from -everything else. - -Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor. - -Mr. BALL. They were? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty -good sized. - -Mr. BALL. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast -corner were out of place, were they? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They sure were. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them out of place before? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor. - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. SHELLEY. You mean the one under the Rolling Readers? - -Mr. BALL. The one under the Rolling Readers. - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level. - -Mr. BALL. "Think and Do" books? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of the first-grade level? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't -they? - -Mr. SHELLEY. About four time as large. - -Mr. BALL. Can you describe their size in inches? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, -approximately. - -Mr. BALL. What would you say is the size--was the size of the Rolling -Reader? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It's about 12 inches long--6 by 6. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was there a place where things and those books were -usually stacked on the sixth floor? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Along the west wall all the way across. - -Mr. BALL. You had been doing work up there that day, had you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry. - -Mr. BALL. Had they ever been in the west wall? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the -west wall. - -Mr. BALL. On the west wall? - -Mr. SHELLEY. On the west wall; I mean the east wall. - -Mr. BALL. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And piled how many cartons high? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high. - -Mr. BALL. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on -the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was -stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for -it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying -the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that -particular type. - -Mr. BALL. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these -"Think and Do" book cartons? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They are on the south side--along the south side of the -building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing -that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and -then the row went right on back toward the west wall. - -Mr. BALL. Along the west wall? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and -as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see. - -Mr. BALL. There was also a carton of books where they found some -handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? -Don't you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that carton? - -Mr. SHELLEY. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books--sixth -grade. - -Mr. BALL. Where were those cartons usually stacked? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall. - -Mr. BALL. About where that was found, was it not? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that -was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How far away from the place where those books were usually -stacked? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west -wall. - -Mr. BALL. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, about 3 feet. - -Mr. BALL. About 3 feet? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the -piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its -proper place? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall -on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of -some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton -was sitting on it there. - -Mr. BALL. By itself? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he? - -Mr. SHELLEY. An order filler. - -Mr. BALL. An order filler? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a -clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; all of the boys do. - -Mr. BALL. All the boys use clipboards? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip -on it and it was homemade--he could have made it himself. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know who made it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No; I'm not for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth -floor? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and -told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go up and look at it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I went up with him and he got it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a name on it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I think it had Frankie's name on it--Frankie Kaiser's -name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made -before--he was all times making them. - -Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come -down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one. - -Mr. SHELLEY. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful -busy down there is the reason I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look -it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and -initial them. That's all, and thank you. - -Mr. SHELLEY. All right; thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDWARD SHIELDS - -The testimony of Edward Shields was taken at 4:25 p.m., on May 14, -1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by -Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. State your name. - -Mr. SHIELDS. Edward Shields. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I live now at 1432 Stirling. I was living at 414 Cleaves -Street. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I work in the shipping department, but some guy put it -down that I worked as a shipping clerk. I do receiving and shipping -with the shipping department. - -Mr. BALL. Of what company? - -Mr. SHIELDS. With the Texas School Book Co. at 1917 North Houston, at -the warehouse. - -Mr. BALL. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of -Houston and Elm? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Co.? - -Mr. SHIELDS. It will be 14 years the 14th of August. - -Mr. BALL. But you work in the warehouse? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you out watching the parade pass -by? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I was. - -Mr. BALL. For what time? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I'd say from about 5 to 12 to about 10 after 12; I mean, -about 5 to 12 to 10 after 12--I heard the shooting. - -Mr. BALL. The shooting was at 12:30. - -Mr. SHIELDS. It was--that's when we was standing there watching the -parade when it came through. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get around to see him before? - -Mr. SHIELDS. We just got on the parking lot there because we go up -there and sit down there and talk with James Tracey. - -Mr. BALL. Who is James Tracey? - -Mr. SHIELDS. He was the manager of the lot--there's somebody else there -now. - -Mr. BALL. That lot is where? - -Mr. SHIELDS. It's near Record and Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Near Record and Elm? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You say you go up there to a parking lot? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Well, we go over there every day at noon and talk to the -fellow that ran it, but that's not the same fellow there now. - -Mr. BALL. But had you, prior to November 22, 1963, had it been your -custom of going over there to see him at noon? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I had been going by there every day at noon. - -Mr. BALL. What about Givens? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I would be going some days when he wouldn't go, but I -would see him--James Tracey--every day at noon. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you go over there? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I was there--yes; I was there. - -Mr. BALL. Approximately what time? - -Mr. SHIELDS. That was around 5 to 12--that would be to 5 after 12. - -Mr. BALL. What about Givens? - -Mr. SHIELDS. He was there at noon after he had eaten his lunch, I mean, -he come on up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it when you saw it? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I was just standing right around there at Mullendorf's -Cafe. - -Mr. BALL. At what address? - -Mr. SHIELDS. On Record and Main. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Givens. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear any shots? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; I heard the shots. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you and Givens do after you heard the shots? - -Mr. SHIELDS. I said, "The President has been shot"; we walked back to -the lot and where Tracey was. I heard one shot and then a pause and -then this repetition--two shots right behind the other, and I thought -it was backfire from a car and I said, "Someone shot the President." - -Mr. BALL. You said, "Someone shot the President"? - -Mr. SHIELDS. That's right, I did. I didn't know what had happened. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Well, Givens run down here--right down here. - -Mr. BALL. He ran down here to this building? - -Mr. SHIELDS. He ran down to the next corner. - -Mr. BALL. And what was the next corner? - -Mr. SHIELDS. That was on Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Did you come with him? - -Mr. SHIELDS. No; I did not--he had me to stay there at the lot. - -Mr. BALL. And they all ran down there? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Givens again? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; we came back to the building--he and Tracey. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SHIELDS. We came back down to the Texas School Book Depository -Building here and tried to get in the building and they wouldn't let no -one in--he couldn't get in and I went on back to the warehouse. - -Mr. BALL. What did Givens do? - -Mr. SHIELDS. Well, they came and got him because he was working here -and I was at the warehouse. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave with the police? - -Mr. SHIELDS. No; I didn't. I was at the warehouse and he had come here. - -Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. This will be written up and you will -be asked to sign it and to make any corrections that you wish, you may -make them in your own handwriting, and somebody will call you from the -U.S. attorney's office and let you know when to come up. - -Mr. SHIELDS. OK. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. - -Mr. SHIELDS. OK. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SAM GUINYARD - -The testimony of Sam Guinyard was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 2, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Sam, and hold up your right hand? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Sam Guinyard. - -Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] G-u-i-n-y-a-r-d, and what is your -address--where do you live? - -Mr. GUINYARD. 2815 South Ervay Street. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you working on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. GUINYARD. On East Jefferson--501 East Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Harris Motor Co. - -Mr. BALL. A used-car lot? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Porter. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you, Sam? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I am 28. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you born? - -Mr. GUINYARD. In Ennis. - -Mr. BALL. Ennis, Tex.? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Ennis and Hillsboro. - -Mr. BALL. And how far through school did you go? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I got to the sixth grade. - -Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, what kind of work have you -done mostly? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Compress work. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Press cotton--pressing cotton. - -Mr. BALL. When did you come to Dallas? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I have been back in Dallas ever since 1957. I lived -in Plainview about 13 years. - -Mr. BALL. At--what kind of work have you done since you came to Dallas? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, a porter in a carlot. - -Mr. BALL. A porter in a carlot? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble in your life? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; nothing but a little poker fines that otherwise -I paid and I got a couple of tickets in my life. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on the day of November 22, 1963, that's the day the -President was killed, what were you doing? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Working there. - -Mr. BALL. And you heard about it, that he had been shot? Didn't you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; at the time I did. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing and where were you then when you heard -that? - -Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff at 501 East Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Polishing and waxing a station wagon. - -Mr. BALL. And did something else happen that day that you remember? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, this was when Oswald shot the policeman. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard--I just want to know what you were -doing and what you heard? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was about--I guess---- - -Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute, were you polishing cars when you heard -something? - -Mr. GUINYARD. When I heard a shot. - -Mr. BALL. You heard a noise? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And it sounded like shots? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I heard three. - -Mr. BALL. Where did the sound come from? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Right behind me, north of me--behind me. - -Mr. BALL. What street is north of you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Tenth. - -Mr. BALL. You were on what street--your carlot faces what street? - -Mr. GUINYARD. It faces Jefferson and 10th. - -Mr. BALL. And 10th Street is north? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; and I was in the back--I was about half way right in -the back. - -Mr. BALL. The cross street is Patton Street? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you heard the shots? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I raised up trying to see where they were coming from, -where the sound was coming from. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third -shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running--came right through -the yard in front of the big white house--there's a big two-story -white house--there's two of them there and he come through the one -right on the corner of Patton. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see down to the corner of 10th and Patton to the -house? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I seen him when he come between the two houses, come -around in front of the last house to get on Patton Street to come out -to Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw this? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Where was I? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. GUINYARD. I was there at the back, right at the alley back there -about as far from Patton Street as--about twice as far from here as to -that window. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you were about 10 feet from Patton Street? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So that you could look up Patton Street? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. North on Patton? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you saw a man, did you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells -out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand. - -Mr. BALL. With which hand? - -Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out. - -Mr. BALL. He had it up? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this. - -Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb. - -Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this -[indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where was he with reference to the corner of Patton and -10th when you saw him? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Where was he? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. GUINYARD. Just as he come around the corner on Patton, he cut -through the yard and missed the corner on 10th and Patton and cut -through the yard. - -Mr. BALL. He cut through the yard of the house on the corner of 10th -and Patton? - -Mr. GUINYARD. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it? - -Mr. GUINYARD. The west--southwest corner--the southeast corner is where -he started across, but he come out on Patton on the southwest corner. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across -the yard of the house on the southeast corner? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That's the white house? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; the big two-story white house. - -Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he come down Patton until he got to about 5 feet -from the corner of Jefferson and then he turned across and went across -to the west corner on Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be -the east side. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there? - -Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were together? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back. - -Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The alleyway that runs along the north side of the lot? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, where was Oswald when he passed you going south toward -Jefferson? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was between the alley and the driveway coming -off Patton. - -Mr. BALL. And he was across the street from you, wasn't he? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No; he was on this side of the street. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the east side of the street? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; and he was too--he was on the east side of the -street until he got across our driveway and then he got onto the west -side. - -Mr. BALL. How close was he to you when you saw him? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I guess he was about 10 feet from me--maybe. - -Mr. BALL. About 10 feet? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway has told us and we measured it with a tape -measure, that Oswald was on the west side of the street, and we -measured it and he figured it was about 55 feet from him when he passed. - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he crossed over after he crossed the driveway. - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mr. GUINYARD. Mr. Callaway followed him, you see, we was together--he -was my boss at that time and he followed him. - -Mr. BALL. Callaway? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; trying to see which way was he going. - -Mr. BALL. And then, which way did he go after he got to Jefferson? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He went west on Jefferson--on the right-hand side--going -west. - -Mr. BALL. And what did Callaway do? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He turned around and run back to the street and we helped -load the policeman in the ambulance. - -Mr. BALL. He ran back up to 10th Street, did you say? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go with him? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Right with him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a police car there? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see besides the police car? - -Mr. GUINYARD. The police that was laying down in the front of the car. - -Mr. BALL. A policeman? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was he dead or alive at that time? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He looked like he was dead to me. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Helped put him in the ambulance. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed there until the ambulance came? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when the truck came up that was driven by -Benavides? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He came up right after this? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he came up from the east side--going west. - -Mr. BALL. And then what did you do after that? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, we stood there a while and talked and I called him -Donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun. - -Mr. BALL. Who did--Benavides? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick them up--any of them? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He picked them up--I didn't pick them up--I was there -with him. - -Mr. BALL. You were there? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I was there with him. - -Mr. BALL. You were there when he picked them up? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around -the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the bushes? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in -the yard just laying down through the yard--that little old shrub that -was there. - -Mr. BALL. Later that day, did you go down to the police department? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; I went down that night. - -Mr. BALL. That same night? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down with? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Me and Ted. - -Mr. BALL. You and who? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Ted--Ted Callaway. - -Mr. BALL. Ted Callaway? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you went to the police station? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I went to the identifying office. - -Mr. BALL. You went into a place where there were police officers? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And how did you identify him--tell me what happened to you, -what you saw? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I just saw him. - -Mr. BALL. Well, were you in a big room? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--in a big room. - -Mr. BALL. With police officers? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I don't understand you. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see some men up ahead of you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men. - -Mr. BALL. Four men? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men--handcuffed together. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say? - -Mr. GUINYARD. They was handcuffed together. - -Mr. BALL. They was handcuffed? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; all four of them. - -Mr. BALL. Were they of different sizes? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much -difference in size. - -Mr. BALL. In height--they were about the same? - -Mr. GUINYARD. About the same. - -Mr. BALL. Were they all about the same color? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. - -Mr. BALL. All about the same color? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to any police officer there after you -saw them? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I talked to one--with the detective--after he came out -there. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him--I mean in this room--as you saw these -four men up there? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He just asked me reckon I could identify them and I said -I sure could. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I just told him I sure could. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say to him about it? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I didn't say anything--I was just waiting on them -to bring them in. - -Mr. BALL. After they brought them in and after you looked at them, what -did you tell the police officers? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that was him right there--I pointed him out -right there. That was him right there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember where he was standing in the lineup--what -number he was? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know what his number was, but I can tell you -where he was standing at. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he standing? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He was standing--the second man from the east side, and -that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from -that there end. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell any police officer that you thought that was -the man? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you tell; what police officer was it? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know his name. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know his name? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; I don't know his name but I know him now if I -would see him. - -Mr. BALL. Before you went in there, did the police officers show you -any pictures? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did the police officer say anything to you before you went in -there? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say that he thought they had the man that killed the -police officer? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ted Callaway say anything before you said you -thought that was the man? - -Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you with Ted at the time? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How close was Ted to you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Oh--sitting about like that. - -Mr. BALL. You mean 3 or 4 feet away from you? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; something like that. - -Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand? - -Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and -a little sort of light-gray-looking jacket. - -Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt. - -Mr. BALL. A white T-shirt? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a white T-shirt on under it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, he had a light gray jacket on? - -Mr. GUINYARD. And a brown shirt on. - -Mr. BALL. And a white T-shirt on? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Underneath it, because this brown shirt was open at the -throat and the white T-shirt under it like this [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. That's all I've got to examine you about now, except to show -you these clothes, and they are upstairs. We will go up now and take a -look at them. - -(At this time Counsel Ball, the witness Guinyard and the reporter -Oliver left the deposing room on the third floor of the Federal -Building and resumed in a deposing room on the fourth floor of the -Federal Building and the deposition proceedings continued as follows:) - -Mr. BALL. Sam, I'll show you an exhibit here, which is a piece of -clothing and which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever -seen this before? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When and where? - -Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody wearing it? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me a little more about it. - -Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff and down in the courtroom. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Down in the examining room. - -Mr. BALL. When this man came down Patton Street toward Jefferson with -his gun, you have mentioned he had a shirt on? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You described that shirt as a brown shirt? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Does this look anything like the shirt? - -Mr. GUINYARD. It looks just like it does. - -Mr. BALL. You saw that shirt before? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Down at the city hall. - -Mr. BALL. At the police station? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you tell them when they showed you this shirt? - -Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that that's the shirt he had on. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162; -have you ever seen this before? - -Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket. - -Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket. - -Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot. - -Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on? - -Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions for you, Sam, and I thank you for -coming down, and you can go home now. - -Mr. GUINYARD. Thank you. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY - -The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on May 7, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State -of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police -Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: - -When testifying before the President's Commission, I stated I did -not remember who returned the two spent 6.5 hulls and envelope to my -possession on the night of November 22, 1963. Since returning to Dallas -Detective C. N. Dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought -the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again -for fingerprints even though I had checked them when they were picked -up on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository about 1:20 -p.m. November 22, 1963 by Detective R. M. Sims and myself and placed in -a manila envelope. Since talking to Dhority I remember now that he was -the one who returned the shells to me about 10:00 p.m. and stated that -his office wanted to retain one. He left me two shells and the envelope -that Detective Sims and I had previously marked. It was then that I -scratched my name on the two shells that were released at 11:45 p.m. to -Agent Vince Drain along with the rifle and other evidence. - -Signed this 7th day of May 1964. - - (S) J. C. Day, - J. C. DAY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY - -The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on June 23, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State -of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police -Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: - -The following affidavit is made to clear up confusion regarding the -three spent 6.5 hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, found -by the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository on -November 22, 1963. The hulls were picked up by Detective R. M. Sims -and Lieutenant J. C. Day and placed in an envelope. Detective R. L. -Studebaker was also present. The envelope was marked and dated by Sims -and Day. Detective Sims took the hulls after they were checked for -fingerprints by Day. The third hull, commission number 545, was later -released directly to the FBI by the Dallas Police Department Homicide -Division. At 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, Detective C. N. Dhority -brought the three hulls in the marked envelope back to Lieutenant Day -in the Identification Bureau office to recheck for prints. Dhority -retained one hull, commission number 545 and left the other two, -commission numbers 543, 544 along with the envelope with me to be sent -to the FBI. Vince Drain, FBI agent, took custody at 11:45 A.M. the same -day. When I appeared before the commission April 22, 1964, I could not -find my name on one of the hulls, identified as commission number 543, -and thought this was the hull that had been retained by Dhority. On -June 8, 1964, the three hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, -were back in Dallas and were examined by Captain G. M. Doughty and -myself at the local FBI office. Close examination with a magnifying -glass under a good light disclosed that my name "Day" was on all three -hulls, at the small end. Also GD for Captain George Doughty was on two -of them. Commission numbers 543 and 544 were the first two sent to -Washington on November 22, 1963. They have Doughty's initials where he -marked the hulls as they were released to Vince Drain at 11:45 P.M. on -November 22, 1963 by Doughty and Day. The third hull, commission number -545, does not have Doughty's mark, but is plainly marked "Day". In -Washington, I had numbers 543 and 545 switched because I didn't find my -name on number 543. I can identify commission numbers 543, 544, and 545 -from my name on them, as the three hulls found on the sixth floor of -the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. As to the time -I scratched my name on the hulls, I do not remember whether it was at -the window when picked up or at 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, when they -were returned to me by Dhority in the marked envelope. It had to be one -or the other, because this is the only time I had all three hulls in my -possession. Both Detective R. L. Studebaker and Detective R. M. Sims, -who were present at the window when the hulls were picked up, state I -marked them as they were found under the window. - -Signed this 23d day of June 1964. - - (S) J. C. Day, - J. C. DAY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY - -The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on June 1, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - CITY OF WASHINGTON, - _District of Columbia, ss_: - -I, Thomas J. Kelley, being first duly sworn do upon oath depose and -state: - -I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to -Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C. On November 22, 1963, -I was not in the City of Dallas at the time of the assassination of -President John F. Kennedy. I was instructed through Deputy Chief Paul -Paterni to go to Dallas directly from Lexington, Kentucky, where I had -been engaged in a special assignment and arrived on Friday evening in -Dallas at approximately 10:30 p.m. - -I attended a total of four interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald, all of -which were held in the office of Captain J. W. Fritz of the Homicide -Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. Three of these interviews -occurred on November 23 and the fourth on November 24. (Prior to my -arrival in Dallas, Oswald had been interrogated on November 22.) - -Subsequent to these interviews I dictated summaries from my notes -of the subject matter discussed and these dictated summaries were -transmitted to Chief James J. Rowley on November 29 and December 1, -1963. - -Copies of these written summaries are attached to this affidavit as -exhibit A and incorporated by reference herein and made a part hereof. -The summary of my last interview with Oswald which occurred on Sunday, -November 24, 1963, was the first portion of a four-page memorandum -which included in addition to the report of the interview, my report on -the circumstances immediately following the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -I hereby certify that the attached memoranda constitute my total -written memoranda of the interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald at which I -was present. I have no additional recollection at this time which I can -add to the attached memoranda. I further certify that these memoranda -accurately summarize my notes and recollections from these interviews. - -Dated this 1st day of June 1964. - - (S) Thomas J. Kelley, - THOMAS J. KELLEY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF J. W. FRITZ - -The following affidavit was executed by J. W. Fritz on June 9, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss._: - -Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State -of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police -Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and -says: I wish to supplement the evidence given by me on Wednesday, April -20, 1964, before the President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy, as follows: - - -_The Spent Rifle Hulls_ - -Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast -corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, -Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers -called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor -touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make -pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected -from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of -the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of the building, -brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to -me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an -envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority -of the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of -the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these -hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to -the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison -tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the -cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the -Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in -my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November -27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the -morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a -notebook that belonged to Oswald. I came to the office and delivered -these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these -items in our report. - - -_Reference to the Testimony of Roger Craig_ - -I don't remember the name Roger Craig, but I do remember a man coming -into my outer office and I remember one of my officers calling me -outside the door of my private office. I talked to this man for a -minute or two, and he started telling me a story about seeing Oswald -leaving the building. I don't remember all the things that this man -said, but I turned him over to Lt. Baker who talked to him. Lee Harvey -Oswald was in my office at this time. I don't remember anything about -Lee Harvey Oswald jumping up or making any remarks or gestures to this -man or to me at this time, and had I brought this officer into my inner -office I feel sure that I would remember it. There were other officers -in my inner office at the time, and I have found no one who knows about -the remarks that you have asked about. - -Signed this 9th day of June 1964. - - (S) J. W. Fritz, - J. W. FRITZ. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARY JANE ROBERTSON - -The testimony of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson was taken at 12:20 p.m., -on May 28, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, -Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Robertson, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the -provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order -and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn -deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of -the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon -the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to -you, Mrs. Robertson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine -what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent -facts you may know about the general inquiry. - -Now, Mrs. Robertson, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of -a general request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel -of the President's Commission, in a letter addressed by him to Chief -Curry, asking Chief Curry to request that you come here. Under the -rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written -notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted -also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he sees fit -to do so. Now, I must first ask you if you wish to receive the 3-day -notice, or whether you are willing to waive it? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am quite willing to. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise then, and raise your right hand so that I may -administer the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, ma'am? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. My name is Mary Jane Robertson or Mrs. Jim G. -Robertson, as I go by. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present residence address? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. 619 Lacewood, L-a-c-e-w-o-o-d [spelling] Drive, in -Dallas, of course. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am classified as a clerk-typist with the city civil -service. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's Dallas? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes--Dallas--and I work in the special service bureau -of the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are a civil service employee but -assigned to the Dallas Police Department? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so assigned? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Just about a year and a half--October the 1st I started -to work there, so just about a year and a half. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you there on Friday, November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The day the President was killed? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I certainly was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to work there and what -time you left? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; at that time I was coming to work at 7:15 and -leaving at 4:15--those were my hours. - -Mr. HUBERT. At 7:15 in the morning? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. At 7:15 in the morning and leaving at 4:15 in the -afternoon. Now, as to the exact time I left that afternoon, I cannot -tell you to the minute because, well, further on in the testimony you -will probably want to ask, but Jack Revill, Lieutenant Revill, asked me -to take a letter for him, the exact time of which I cannot tell you, -but I do remember this very well--my husband had a vacation. He had -been on a hunting trip and he was at home, so when Jack asked me to -write this letter I went in and phoned home and I said, "I might run -just a few minutes late because I don't know if this will be a long -letter or a short letter, or what it will consist of," and I did have -the car, and ordinarily I would have been home, say, leaving the office -at 4:15, in 20 or 25 minutes, you know, but I did get home more or less -around 5 o'clock--which was the usual time. I mean, I didn't run, you -know, real late or anything, but that part--I definitely remember, and -my husband does, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the letter of Lt. Jack Revill you just talked about was -the thing that caused you to be delayed? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That was what I stayed to write--yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is a fact? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That is a fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that was the last thing you did that day? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; when I completed the letter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally, you would have left at 4:15? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; and I am saying that I didn't run too much after -4:15--the point of it--now, exactly what time I started on that--I -don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally, how long would it take you to get to your home -from your office? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, you see, if I leave at 4:15 I make a little -better time than if you wait until 4:30 because the more traffic starts -then, and it's hard to say exactly, but I go on the freeway, and it's -probably 20 minutes and if it's heavy traffic probably 25--you know -what I mean? - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to state, then, that you probably left at -about 4:30? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I would assume so. Now, I'm not saying to the very -minute or anything like that, but I am saying that approximately--if it -was after 5 o'clock, it was very shortly after when I got in the car, -you know, I did not run what you would call late by hours or so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you two documents, but I want to -identify them with reference to your deposition, so I am marking a -document which has been already identified as Commission Exhibit -No. 838, as follows: "Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, -of the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson," and I am signing my -name below that, all of which appears in the left margin, and I -am doing precisely the same to the other document, which bears the -identification, Commission Exhibit No. 709, except that I am marking -this as Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of Mary Jane Robertson, signing -my name to that. - -Now, Mrs. Robertson, I would ask you to look at Exhibit No. 1 and -Exhibit No. 2 which are identified and ask you if that is the letter to -which you have previously referred as having been written or typed by -you for Lieutenant Revill? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I didn't this--because I know nothing about this down -here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are pointing to Exhibit No. 1 and you are covering with -your hand the affidavit portion? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you know nothing about that? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. The letter itself, you have noticed that they are actually -identical, one appears to be an original and the other a copy? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right--I was trying to see if there was a -difference. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember writing these letters yourself? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Why, yes; I wrote them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything on the letter that identifies you as -having written them, I mean like the usual little marks put on the -letter by a stenographer? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No; that's something I always do, but what I mean, the -state of confusion--well--I'm sure you can't have a conception of the -state of confusion that office was in--our main secretary was out, she -had a dental appointment and she had left earlier that morning, there -were only two girls in the office and the two deskmen. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you do identify the letter? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Definitely--I identify the letter. - -Mr. HUBERT. You identify it from the sense of it or what? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, this is something that I did not memorize -verbatim, and could not have repeated--what I mean--per word, but I -could have told you the general gist of the letter, is what I mean, -yes--the actual facts. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it dictated to you? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Lieutenant Revill came in and said, "Mary Jane, I would -like for you to take a letter," and like I said, our stenographer was -out of the office on an appointment, and I said, "Of course, now, Jack, -this has been a hard day and you know I don't take shorthand and if you -will be patient with me and let me write it out in longhand, I will be -happy to do it for you." That is when I made my phone call home, and -so he said, "Well, you take your time," and he said, "I know you don't -take shorthand and that's quite all right," and I had him even spell -such names so as to be certain of--you know--the agent's name and all -like that. He sat across the desk from me, as we are doing here. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was written out in your hand? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; now, Jack, as I remember--I speak of him, we are -very informal in our office, as Lieutenant Revill--Lieutenant Revill, -as I recall, did have several papers or rough drafts that possibly he -had written out or something, but he did speak verbally to me and I -wrote in my own handwriting and I used a shorthand notebook. I wrote in -my own handwriting. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you used your own handwriting for the purpose of -writing the letter? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your own handwriting notes? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Anything like that I always take and I tear up and put -in the wastebasket. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think that's what happened here? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, I'm certain it did. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know the existence of those notes now, is -what I am getting at? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many copies you made? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. There again, I could not swear to you under oath -exactly. Ordinarily we make an original and five. Now, whether -Lieutenant Revill just might have said that an original and three will -be enough, I cannot tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how many you made? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No--I cannot--I absolutely do not remember that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the normal practice would have been to make more than -one copy? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. More than the original? - -Mr. HUBERT. More than the original and one copy--normally you would -write the original and how many copies? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Now, by this going to the captain that is not -necessarily so. Anything we address to the chief we would have -definitely more than one carbon copy, but for little instances like -that, I cannot remember--Lieutenant Revill just might have said "an -original and one will be enough." - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that he did say so? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I do not--absolutely. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you don't really know how many you did make? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I cannot tell you--I cannot remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. When the letter was finished, what happened to it? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I called Lieutenant Revill, as well as I can remember, -I called him into my office. Now, I might have gone into his office, -but I took it directly to him. I waited and let him read it and let him -proof it over to see it and I know he questioned me--he said, "Are you -sure this is the correct way to spell assassination?" And I said, "Yes, -sir; I looked it up in the dictionary," and he read the letter and then -as I remember, I got my personal belongings together and I left the -building then. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you handed the original and copy or copies to him? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Directly to Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you don't know what he did with it, to your own -knowledge? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Oh, no; I left the building. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what the figures in the lower -right-hand corner on Exhibit 1, that is to say, Commission Exhibit No. -838, mean? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do they mean? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. The captain has files of copies and that is his own, -and his own personal file. In fact, he gave me a letter, a photostat, -which he said it would be quite all right to show that that is his own -and that that appears on his file, you know what I mean, the way he has -it set up. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about what? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. The O-1 is what I'm talking about. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are showing me a document that is exactly the same -actually, it seems to be a photostatic copy of Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, -that you have just testified to. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right, this is in the captain's files. - -Mr. HUBERT. This is from the captain's flies and in the left-hand side -it shows "WPG"? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's Capt. W. P. Gannaway. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then over on the right-hand side it has "O-1" and you -say that those are his initials on the left-hand side, and on the -right-hand side is what, that is his indexing? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Correct--this is not in the outside file or anything, -it's in the captain's office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate that there is another copy other than -the two that you have just testified to, being Commission Exhibits Nos. -838 and 709? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, sir, will you phrase that again, I don't -understand it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you will notice that in Commission Exhibits Nos. 838 -and 709, both of which have been identified, respectively, as Exhibits -Nos. 1 and 2 for this deposition, do not have on the left-hand side the -initials of Captain Gannaway. Now, it could be that this document you -have just showed me is another copy or another photostat initialed? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Sir, I don't know. He called me in his office yesterday -and handed me the letter and I read it. I said, "Yes, Captain Gannaway, -this is the letter. I assume I typed it because this is the contents of -the letter that I typed." - -Mr. HUBERT. And you remembered it? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; so he handed it to me and he said, "Well, take -this along," and he said, "This, of course, Mary Jane, you well -know----" - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the "O-1"? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. The O-1, I don't ask questions, but I mean, he has a -file, of course, of the documents pertaining to this and so he said, -"Would you return the letter to me when you return from taking your -deposition?" - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn't authorize you to let me have this letter that you -have just showed me? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No; he did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I said before, I think you will agree with me -that this letter seems to be exactly the same as the other two, with -the exception that on the one that you have produced there are in the -left-hand corner, the initials WPG, which you say you identify as being -the initials of Captain Gannaway? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the other markings and -symbols on the bottom of Commission Exhibit No. 838? I refer first to -seemingly a rubber stamp in a square called "Indexed date 4-27-4" and -the initial "S." Can you tell me what that means? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I have no idea in the world, sir. I have never seen a -stamp like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then below that, the initials "Int," this being in -writing, and then "2965-34," do you know what that means? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I have no idea. Now, there again is our O-1, which -would be in our captain's files. Now, whether this is something -pertaining--I do not know whether this is something pertaining to his -files only, this subject matter. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, from your own knowledge, except for the -O-1, as to which you have already testified, the rubber stamp and the -other figures in the lower right-hand corner in Exhibit No. 1 in this -deposition, being Commission Exhibit No. 838, as to those you know -nothing about? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I know nothing, sir. Once I handed the letter to -Lieutenant Revill, then I never saw the letter again until I was called -into the captain's office yesterday. I remember it in my mind, but as -far as seeing the actual document, I had not seen the actual document, -I mean a copy of it or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be possible for you to call Captain -Gannaway and see if he would give you authority to let me have that -copy that you have shown us or perhaps take a photostat of it; can you -do that? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I will do that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a few minutes recess, then, and you call -Captain Gannaway and ask him if we might have that copy. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. All right; I will. - -(At this point the proceedings of the deposition of Mrs. Robertson were -recessed, during which time Mrs. Robertson made the call heretofore -referred to, and the proceedings were continued as hereinafter shown.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Robertson, you have attempted to reach Captain -Gannaway to see if he could give you permission to either let me have a -photocopy made of this letter which you showed me, or else have a copy -of that made, but at the moment you have not been able to reach him. - -Suppose we do this. I have already asked you all the questions that I -would ask you about the document, and suppose we do it this way--that -if you do secure permission to give it to me, then when it is delivered -at a later time today or at the latest, tomorrow, I will mark it as -Exhibit No. 3 of your deposition, do you understand? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. By simply writing my name and the date and then all of -the testimony which you have previously given as to that document -heretofore, but which did not refer to a numbered exhibit will apply to -Exhibit No. 3; is that all right? Do you understand what I mean? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes--I see--I understand what you mean. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that Captain Gannaway, from what you told -me, called you in yesterday and spoke to you about this. Has anyone -else spoken to you about this recently, at any time? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No, captain--I assume it was from this letter that was -addressed to the chief requiring my testimony on this--the captain just -said I was needed and that I had a choice of Thursday or Friday and -which would be more convenient? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand, and then he asked you if you remembered -it? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. He asked me first if I remembered the letter, and I -said, "Yes, very well," and I repeated the gist of the contents to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the only time anyone had spoken to you about the -letter? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, when Lieutenant Revill went to Washington, -I believe, he went a matter of a week or 2 weeks ago and he said -at that time when he came back, when he returned from Washington, -he said, "Mary Jane, you know they may need your testimony on it," -and I said, "Well, that's fine. I certainly remember the day, and I -certainly remember the incident," and other than that there has been no -discussion. - -Mr. HUBERT. And there is no doubt in your mind that it was written, as -you say, on the afternoon of November 22, approximately between the -hours of 4 and 4:30 p.m.? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I would say that it was written more -between--yes--about then, because I was thinking from the--actually -the time he started giving it to me and all that--actually the typing -and waiting for him to proofread it and all like that--that I am -sure--because I went directly home to my family and told my husband -that I had typed the letter. - -Mr. HUBERT. And there can be no doubt about it being November 22, -either? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. No doubt in the world. - -Mrs. HUBERT. All right, Mrs. Robertson, thank you very much. As soon as -you find out from Captain Gannaway, perhaps you can arrange some way to -get the document delivered? - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Shall I personally have to deliver that to you, or can -it be sent by one of the officers? Is there a requirement about it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Just so that it is identified more particularly with your -testimony, if you get permission to hand me that document, or deliver -it in person, that's all that will be necessary. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, I'm quite sure the captain will not object. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you want to send it over, I would like you to place your -name on it just so that we will know it is the document we are talking -about, because after all, this is going to be read by people later, -and we know what we are talking about, but we must make it clear that -others will know from the whole record what it is. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. I see, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, very much, and I appreciate your assistance. - -Mrs. ROBERTSON. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT - -The testimony of Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt was taken at 3:40 p.m., on June -12, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Melvin -Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -(The oath was administered by the reporter.) - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you state your full name, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have testified before the Commission in this -proceeding before? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We will not rehearse your qualifications again, since -you have already been accepted as an expert in the field in which you -are going to be questioned today. - -Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you a photograph marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. -1, consisting of a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald holding a rifle, and -I ask you whether you prepared that photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a photograph of an existing Commission exhibit? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; this is a copy of the small photograph that is a -part of Commission Exhibit No. 133. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That would be 133-A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't recall whether it is A or B. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you photographs of Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A -and 133-B and ask if this serves to refresh your recollection as to -whether Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a photograph of 133-A or 133-B? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a copy of the -Commission Exhibit No. 133-A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the cover of Life -magazine, issue of February 21, 1964, which I have labeled Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you if this is a photograph which you have -previously examined in connection with earlier testimony given by you -to the Commission? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you page 80 of the same issue of Life, which is -labeled Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 3, and I ask you the same question, that -is, whether this is the photograph you have previously discussed in -connection with earlier testimony? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I am using duplicate originals -rather than the actual exhibits, because the actual exhibits are now -being printed up by the Government Printing Office. - -Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the front page of the Detroit Free Press, -issue of February 17, 1964, containing a picture similar to Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 1, and the other pictures thus far referred to--and I am -labeling this Detroit Free Press page Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4--and ask -you whether you have examined the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald and a -rifle appearing on that exhibit? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare this picture with 133-A or Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 1, your reproduction of 133-A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion on the basis of that comparison? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found that the reproduction of the photograph of -Oswald holding the gun on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 has insufficient -detail to warrant positive identification as being the same photograph -as Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1. - -However, I did find that the photograph in the newspaper, Exhibit -No. 4, is consistent in all respects with the photograph which is -Exhibit No. 1, except for variations in retouching that are a normal -part of the process of making halftone reproductions from photographs -for newspapers. I further found that there was nothing in these -photographs to indicate that they are other than the same photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say that the only variations appear to be -variations in retouching, that would be based on the conclusion that -they were the same photograph, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe those variations which are apparently -due to retouching, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. There is an area to the right of Oswald's head -and shoulder, to my left as I look at the photograph, that has been -airbrushed or otherwise altered, to intensify the outline of the -shoulder, which would be Oswald's shoulder. - -In addition there is retouching around the stock of the rifle, and -along the other portions of the rifle where it crosses Oswald's body, -that has been added to intensify the detail in that portion of the -photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "around the stock," could you specify as to -whether you mean the top, bottom, end, or all three or any two of those -boundaries? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. In Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 there is retouching on both -the top and bottom and butt of the stock, and also a highlight running -along the top of the gun from the bolt forward toward the muzzle. - -There is an additional highlight along the bottom of the gun just -forward of the trigger assembly between the trigger assembly and the -hand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, there is a highlight on Shaneyfelt Exhibit -No. 1 running near the top of the barrel or receiver, is that -correct--terminating at Oswald's left hand? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the relation between the highlight at the top of -the barrel or receiver in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 and the highlight -just referred to in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. In Exhibit No. 1, that highlight along the bolt of -the gun is in two parts, and the highlight in the photograph or -the reproduction of the photograph, Exhibit No. 4, is a continuous -highlight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it your opinion that the highlight in Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 4 is based upon the highlight in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But it differs, at least, in that it makes a continuous -highlight where none appears in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, is that your -testimony? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, a telescopic sight -is apparent on the rifle, and no such sight is apparent in Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 4. Do you have any opinion as to the reason for the lack of -a sight appearing on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give that opinion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that the sight does not appear in the -reproduction of the photograph on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, because it -was not retouched to intensify the detail of the sight, and, therefore -was lost in the engraving process. I do not believe that there was any -retouching over the sight in order to purposely obliterate it from the -reproduction in Exhibit No. 4. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is there generally a loss of detail in reproduction -of illustrations appearing in newspapers, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is. This is apparent in other areas of -this photograph when compared with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, in areas -of Oswald's shirt, where wrinkling appears in Exhibit No. 1, and is -lost in the reproduction. Also, the wrinkles in the dark areas of the -trousers are not reproduced in the halftone process, but this detail is -lost by the process. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is this halftone process which you mention? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the halftone process by which a continuous tone -photograph, such as Exhibit No. 1, is photographed through a screen so -that it can be broken up into a dot pattern of black dots on a white -background and white dots on a black background to give the appearance -of a continuous tone in the printed newspaper reproduction. And this is -the only means by which a continuous-tone photograph can be reproduced. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why is it called a halftone process? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't really know the answer but I would assume that -it is because it gives you the tones in between black and white, or the -halftones. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, a loss of detail is inherent in this process, is it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is true, particularly in regard to newspaper -reproductions, where a relatively coarse screen is used in making the -halftone. In a magazine publication, where a higher quality of printing -is used, and a better quality of paper is used, it is possible to use a -finer screen and thereby retain a greater amount of the detail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, referring once more to the highlight running -along the top of the weapon, and terminating at Oswald's left hand in -Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4; when you compare this exhibit with Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 1, does it appear that that highlight actually runs along -the top of the weapon? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. In the reproduction of the photograph on Exhibit No. -4, the impression is given that the highlight is along the top of the -rifle, because you see no additional detail above that highlight along -the top of the gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if you compare that with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, -where a similar highlight appears, does that highlight actually denote -the top of the weapon, or is any detail above the highlight apparent in -Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. On Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, the highlight does not -denote the top of the weapon. There is detail present that shows other -areas of the gun, the breech, above the highlight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would you say then that detail of the weapon -itself, that is, the upper part of the weapon, had been lost along with -detail representing the telescopic sight? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Bringing your attention back to Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. -2 and 3, which are the Life photographs, how did these photographs -compare with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, the Detroit Free Press -photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The primary difference is in the retouching. In the -area above and behind Oswald's right shoulder, the background has been -retouched out on Exhibit No. 4, the Detroit Free Press. In the Life -magazine reproduction, Exhibit No. 2, the background has been left in, -and the retouching has been added to the shirt area around the right -shoulder to enhance the detail along in that area. - -The Life magazine reproduction, Exhibit No. 2, also has retouching -around the scope of the rifle in order that it will not blend into the -dark shirt that Oswald was wearing and thus be lost in the reproduction -process; this has not been done in Exhibit No. 4. The retouching along -the top of the rifle stock is generally similar, in that it is in a -straight line from the butt of the stock to the bolt. However, Exhibit -No. 4 has a different type of retouching along the end or butt of -the stock and the bottom of the stock or the lower edge of the stock -between the butt and the trigger guard. Highlights along the top and -bottom of the breech area are different in Exhibit No. 4 than in -Exhibit No. 2. - -There is a dark shadow between the legs of Oswald that is about halfway -between the knee and the crotch that has been left in the reproduction -of Exhibit No. 4, but has been retouched out of the Life magazine -reproduction, Exhibit No. 2. These are the primary variations in the -retouching on the two exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the highlight running at or near the top of -the receiver or barrel in the bolt area show a continuous or an -intermittent form in Commission Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Commission Exhibit No. 2 shows a break in the -highlight along the bolt, and is reproduced very close to the original -photograph, which is Exhibit No. 1. - -In fact, this area was probably not retouched, or this highlight was -probably not retouched, for the Life magazine reproduction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also mentioned that the retouching along the -stock was different when Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 2 is compared with -Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4. Could you go into a little bit of detail on -that difference? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I mentioned that the highlight along the top from -the butt to the bolt is generally similar in that it is in a straight -line. Although the rifle itself is actually curved along that area, -they both have been retouched in a relatively straight line along the -top edge of the stock. There has been a white or light line added along -the butt of the stock where it crosses Oswald's leg in Exhibit No. -4 and this has not been done in Exhibit No. 2. In addition, a white -outline has been drawn in along the bottom edge of the stock as it runs -from the butt to the trigger guard in Exhibit No. 4. This has not been -done in Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, when retouching is effected, is it -performed on a negative or on a print? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Retouching for newspaper reproduction is almost always -done on the print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what about magazine reproductions? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This would also be true of magazine reproductions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And would that explain how Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 -and 4 could differ from each other, even though they were apparently -both taken from the same print, originally from the same print, of -which Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; that would explain the difference. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is--could you go into detail on that? Could -you elaborate that answer? By what process would the result of a -reproduction of the same print differ, as reproduced in two different -media or two different magazines or newspapers? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Well, the primary variation would be in the retouching -that has been added. Different publications and different retouch -artists would handle a photograph differently, and add different -retouching to them. Therefore, these would be the main variations which -you would have between two different reproductions. In addition there -can also be differences in the quality of the engraving, as there -are differences in quality of many things. A newspaper reproduction -is made with a coarser screen and gives less detail than a magazine -reproduction that uses a finer screen and, therefore, reproduces more -detail. These are some of the basic things that would affect these -reproductions and make variations in the reproductions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you page 80 of Newsweek -magazine, issue of March 2, 1964, also containing a photograph like -those we have been examining, and this is marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. -5, and I ask you whether you have examined that photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your conclusions, please? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found that the photograph reproduced in the Newsweek -magazine, issue of March 2, 1964, which has been marked as Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 5, is the same in all general characteristics as the -photograph that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, and -I found no differences to suggest that it is other than the same -photograph---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Except for variations in retouching. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I take it that your testimony concerning Shaneyfelt -Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5 is that due to some loss of detail it is -impossible to say that these photographs are identical to Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 1--or rather Exhibit No. 133-A, on which Shaneyfelt Exhibit -No. 1 is based--in the same way you can say that a fingerprint is -identical to a given fingerprint impression; is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. I was not able to positively identify -them, because of this loss of detail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your opinion as to the probability that they are -identical, bearing in mind that it is impossible to make an absolute -unqualified determination of identity? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. They may very well be identical since I found no -significant differences other than the retouching. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there much doubt in your mind? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Very little. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the factors which have been mentioned so -far as apparently due to retouching, and those factors which you have -not yet discussed but will, was there any difference between the -reproductions and the original, between the apparent reproductions and -the original? That is, was lighting the same, position, and so forth? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I found them to be the same in all of these -general characteristics as to lighting and position of hands and -position of body, their relation to the background. I found no -differences whatsoever. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that for the photograph to be a different photograph, -I take it, you would have had to have Oswald line up exactly in the -same position, with his elbows and torso in precisely the same relative -position, with the rifle at precisely the same relative height and in -precisely the same relative position as it had been in previously, with -the lighting casting the exact same shadows, insofar as shadows are -visible, and so forth, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you found no discrepancies in those items I have -just mentioned? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. - -To make the record complete, is there any other possibility, no matter -how remote? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; even though it would be extremely remote, it is -conceivable that a person could actually make a drawing or painting of -a picture exactly like this, that when reproduced in a newspaper or -publication with its loss of detail would resemble Commission Exhibit -No. 133-A, in the same manner that this picture or this reproduction -resembles Exhibit No. 133-A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "This reproduction" being which, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Either Exhibit No. 4, or Exhibit No. 5, Exhibit No. 2, -any of the magazine or newspaper reproductions that we have discussed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are not talking about Commission Exhibit No. 133-A -itself, which you testified to earlier? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No, no. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any evidence of this, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I do not, and I think it is in the realm of -unreasonable doubt and it is highly improbable. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5, could you -describe the apparent retouching in that exhibit? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is airbrushing in the background area that -shows beside the right shoulder of Oswald, where the tree that shows in -Exhibit No. 1 has been airbrushed out to a darkened area. There have -been highlights added to the rifle, a straight highlight along the top -of the stock, running from the butt of the stock to the bolt, a bright -highlight along the butt of the stock. - -There has been rather elaborate retouching around the bolt area or -breech area of the rifle. The highlight that appears in Shaneyfelt -Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt of the gun, which appears as a broken line -or two segments of a line or highlight, appears in the reproduction on -Exhibit No. 5 as a broken line very much like the actual highlight in -the photograph which is Exhibit No. 1. - -There has been a highlight added parallel to that, along the bottom of -or just below that area in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 5, which -does not appear in Exhibit No. 1. - -The top of the rifle has been emphasized with a strong highlight, and -the highlight in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 5 along the top of the -rifle does not conform to the actual top of the rifle as it can be seen -in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1. - -There are some other highlights added above that, that are rather -unexplainable but may be highlights relative to the lower portion of -the scope. - -Also a highlight has been added along the top of the barrel between -Oswald's left hand and where the barrel extends past his left shoulder. - -There has been some retouching added around the pistol on the right hip -of Oswald, and around the holster. These are the primary points that -have been retouched. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, does this photograph, Shaneyfelt Exhibit -No. 5, more closely resemble the Detroit Free Press photograph, which -is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, or the Life photographs, Shaneyfelt -Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It corresponds to the reproduction in the Detroit Free -Press, Exhibit No. 4, and not as well to the reproduction on Exhibit -No. 2, which is the Life magazine. In fact, the reproductions on -Exhibits Nos. 4 and No. 5 both have two white specks along the right -leg between the knee and the right foot, centrally located in that area -one above the other, that do not appear in the original photograph, -which is Commission Exhibit 133-A, and do not appear in the Life -magazine reproduction on either Exhibit No. 2 or 3. This would indicate -to me that these two photographs may have originated from the same -basic source or basic print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in fact, the credit under Shaneyfelt No. 5 says, -"Copyright 1964, Detroit Free Press," is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But is the picture identical in all respects to the -Detroit Free Press picture? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; the retouching, particularly around the breech of -the rifle in Exhibit No. 5, which is the Newsweek reproduction, is -different than the retouching on the reproduction in Exhibit No. 4, the -Detroit Free Press. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the reproduction around the breech, that is, just -below Oswald's left hand, correspond to anything you have ever seen on -a rifle, Mr. Shaneyfelt--that is, the four or five roughly parallel -lines? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; it doesn't correspond to anything that I recall -having seen on a rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think the genesis of all those lines would -be? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that they are possibly the artist's -interpretation of how the rifle may have looked in that area, since the -photograph being retouched was indistinct in that area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that would be likely to have been done by -a person not familiar with rifles? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is a possibility, but I wouldn't be able to state -that with any degree of certainty. That is one possibility. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I also see that Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 has an arrow -pointing to the revolver, which is not present in Shaneyfelt Exhibit -No. 5, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5 differs -from Exhibit No. 4, although it seems to be substantially similar, and -in fact Newsweek credits its photo to the Detroit Free Press, which is -the Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 picture? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I would attribute these differences to the -differences in retouching. Since it would be normal procedure in -publications of this type for each publication to do its own retouching -for its own reproductions, they would normally receive the picture in -an unretouched condition from whatever source is available, such as the -Associated Press, or, as in Exhibit No. 3, the credit to the Detroit -Free Press, and after receiving the unretouched photograph, would then -add the retouching that they desired to have on the photo before making -the halftone reproduction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The area to the right of Oswald's shoulder and head, -that is, to the left of the shoulder and head as we look at the -picture, appears to be retouched or airbrushed out in the same way in -both pictures. Would that be your conclusion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; with one exception, that while the airbrushing -is generally similar, it appears in the Detroit Free Press, which -is Exhibit No. 4, as a light area against a black shirt, while in -Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, it appears as a black area against a rather -dark shirt, with a light highlight added along the shoulder to make the -area stand out against the background. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it your conclusion, then, that two separate -retouchings were done to accomplish that effect, one retouching by the -Newsweek people and one retouching by the Detroit Free Press people? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I have no foundation on which to base a positive -statement in that regard, but this is suggested by the variations that -are present. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the presence of that same feature as a retouch -in both photographs might be coincidental, or at least might not have -been done by the same person? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in your mind that similarity of feature does not -preclude the possibility that a completely unretouched photo was -submitted by the Detroit Free Press to Newsweek? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you page 30 of the New York -Times, issue of February 19, 1964, which again contains a photograph -similar to those you have been testifying as to--and which page I -have marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6--and I ask you whether you have -examined that photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what is your conclusion concerning that photograph, -Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found this to be generally similar in all visible -characteristics to the photograph which is Commission Exhibit No. -133-A, and found no differences to suggest that it is other than the -same photograph as Exhibit No. 133-A. However, the lack of detail in -the halftone reproduction on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6 precludes a -positive identification with Commission Exhibit No. 133-A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any retouching in this photograph, Mr. -Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. In the photograph reproduced on Exhibit No. 6 this is -retouched along the right shoulder and to the right side of the face of -Oswald. In this instance, that has been put in in a solid medium gray, -to make it appear as the extension of the building or the fence that -appears in the background of the original photograph. - -There is retouching around the rifle stock--in fact, the stock itself -seems to have been lightened all along the lower portion near the butt; -a highlight along the top has been retouched along the top from the -butt to the breech; some retouching along the butt of the stock, and -also along the bottom edge of the stock, running upward toward the -trigger. - -The highlight that appears in Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt as a -two-section highlight or a broken highlight appears in this same -general area on the gun in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 6 as a solid -highlight and one continuous line. There has been a highlight added -along the bottom of the gun just forward of the trigger guard and just -below Oswald's left hand. Also a highlight has been added along the top -of the gun above Oswald's left hand to show the gun as apart from the -dark shirt, so that the gun and shirt do not blend into one continuous -tone at that point. There appears to be some retouching of Oswald's -shadow, in that it has been toned down to a medium gray shadow so that -it will not blend into the lower portion of his legs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the reproductions which you have so far -examined does this most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt: the Detroit Free -Press, the Life, or the Newsweek reproduction? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This corresponds to both the Detroit Free Press and the -Newsweek reproductions of the photograph, in that it contains the two -white dots along the right leg, centrally located between the ankle and -the knee as they appear in those two reproductions, and, therefore, -may be derived from the same basic print, since this characteristic -does not appear in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A or in the Life magazine -reproductions on Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the retouching in the New York Times -photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt, how does that compare with the retouching -in the Detroit Free Press and Newsweek photographs? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The retouching is different from any of the other -Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude, therefore, that the New York Times, -like Newsweek, may have received from its source an unretouched -photograph which it proceeded to retouch? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that again the similarity in retouching to the upper -right of Oswald's shoulder and head might be coincidental? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; actually, there is considerable difference in the -retouching in that area on the New York Times photograph as compared -to the Newsweek and Detroit Free Press exhibits. The New York Times -has attempted to make it appear as a wall, whereas the other two have -merely airbrushed out the line, and it looks like foliage. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The stock in all three of these photographs, that -is, Detroit Free Press, Newsweek, and New York Times, has also been -retouched in a similar manner, that is, so that the top of the stock -appears straight, whereas actually the top of the stock is curved--is -that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think accounts for the coincidence of the -retouching in these two areas--that is, the top of the stock and the -area to the upper right of Oswald's shoulder--given the differences -you have noted in the details of retouching? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I would attribute that to a lack of detail in the -photographs that they had, and a lack of understanding of the formation -of a normal rifle stock on the part of the retoucher. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the front page of the -New York Journal-American, issue of February 18, 1964, which again -contains a photograph similar to those you have been discussing, and -which I have labeled Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 7, and ask you whether you -have examined that photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my conclusion that this photograph is the same -in all visible characteristics as the photograph which is Commission -Exhibit No. 133-A, and I found no differences that would suggest that -it is other than the same photograph. However, because of the lack of -detail in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 7, it is not possible to -positively identify it as the same photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is retouching apparent in this photograph, Mr. -Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe that in detail? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there has been retouching along the right shoulder -of Oswald, and to some degree around the head, in order to have the -head and shoulder not blend into the background. This appears to have -been done by increasing the highlight or lightening the highlight along -the shoulder, rather than darkening the background. - -There is a highlight added along the top of the rifle stock that runs -quite straight toward the bolt, but it is not as strong a highlight -as in the other reproductions we have discussed. There is a highlight -along the top of the rifle between Oswald's left hand and the point -where the rifle passes his left shoulder. There is a suggestion of some -retouching around the rifle scope, which is almost lost in the detail -or almost lost against the black shirt, but it is barely visible. There -is a dark shadow that appears in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A that has -been retouched out of Exhibit No. 7 reproduction, that shadow being -about halfway between the knee and the crotch of the trousers between -the legs. Those are the primary points of retouching. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the various photographs which you have examined -does this Journal-American photograph most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The Journal-American photograph reproduction on -Exhibit No. 7 is different from the Detroit Free Press, Exhibit No. -4, Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, and New York Times, Exhibit No. 6, in -that the white spots along the right leg between the ankle and the -knee do not appear in the reproduction in the Journal-American. It -very closely corresponds to the reproduction on the front of the Life -magazine, which is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 2. In fact, the retouching -appears to be very nearly the same. The lack of detail in the Newspaper -reproduction on Exhibit No. 7 precludes positively saying that it is -identical, but it is my feeling that it is probably identical. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out some of the similarities in -retouching? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the retouching along the top of the rifle stock, -the retouching around the right shoulder and around the head, to -the right of Oswald's head, the retouching around the top of the -rifle above the left hand, the elimination of the shadow between -the legs just below the breech of the trousers are the same in both -reproductions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any notable difference between those -reproductions, the Life and Journal-American reproductions? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; no notable difference in the retouching. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any opinion as to the source of the -Journal-American photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is not possible to positively state, but I note -in examining the Journal-American reproduction, which is Exhibit No. 7, -that the face area in particular has a design in the light shadow areas -which I recognized as being typical of a halftone reproduction made -from another halftone reproduction. And because of the presence of this -characteristic in the shadow area of the face, and the manner in which -the photograph is cropped or trimmed, I am of the opinion that it is -highly possible that the reproduction in the Journal-American, Exhibit -No. 7, was made from a Life magazine cover, issue of February 21, 1964, -containing the reproduction of the photograph of Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you elaborate on your statement that the cropping -is a factor in leading to this conclusion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; on Exhibit No. 2, which is the Life magazine -cover, if a straight line is drawn vertically past the right edge -of the Life sign on the front of the magazine, so that the sign is -blocked out, and that straight line is continued through a shadow area -comparable to the shadow in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 7, the -cropping along that edge of the photograph then becomes identical to -the cropping on the Journal-American photograph. This would suggest -that the picture was purposely cropped in that manner to eliminate the -Life magazine printing in the upper left-hand corner of the magazine -cover. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the Life magazine picture, and also the -Journal-American picture, show cropping as against the original, that -is, Exhibit No. 133-A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. The Life magazine photograph does not show all -of the photograph that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, the -photograph having been cropped down closer to the head, cutting out -some of the overhead area. There has also been considerable cropping on -both the right and left margins, when you compare the Life magazine and -Journal-American reproductions with Exhibit No. 133-A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other feature on the Journal-American -photograph which leads you to conclude that it was taken from the Life -photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in the lower right-hand corner of the Life -magazine cover, Exhibit No. 2, there is a strip set in, containing the -printing "February 21, 1964, 25 cents." If the Journal-American did, -in fact, reproduce this picture from a Life cover, it would have been -necessary for them to retouch out this strip of printing in the lower -right-hand corner of the Life magazine cover, and I find on examination -of the reproduction on the Journal-American that there is retouching in -this area. The background of the grass is inconsistent, in that it has -been darkened around that area, and there is also darkening along the -foot and leg, and the shadow area has been altered in between the two -feet in a manner to strongly suggest that this strip has been retouched -out in order to make the reproduction on the Journal-American, Exhibit -No. 7. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, do you have anything to add to your -testimony? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, thank you very much then. That will be all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN - -The testimony of James C. Cadigan was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 30, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -(The oath was administered by the reporter.) - -Mr. CADIGAN. I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, the purpose for which we are here is to -go into the facts of the assassination of President Kennedy, and -in particular we have asked you to testify concerning analysis of -questioned documents. Mr. Cadigan, could you state your full name and -your position? - -Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan. I am a special agent of the FBI, -assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the FBI laboratory -in Washington, D.C. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you been in this field, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Twenty-three and one-half years. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your training in this field? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Upon being assigned to the laboratory I was given a -specialized course of training and instruction which consisted of -attending various lectures and conferences on the subject, reading -books, and working under the direction of experienced examiners. - -Upon attaining a required degree of proficiency, I was assigned cases -on my own responsibility, and since that time I have examined many -thousands of cases involving handwriting, hand printing, typewriting, -forgeries, erasures, alterations, mechanical devices of all types, -pens, paper, and ink. I conduct research on various problems as they -arise and assist in the training of our new examiners. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in Federal or other courts, Mr. -Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; in many Federal and State courts, and military -courts-martial. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 773, -and I ask you whether you have examined that item. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that consists of an application to -purchase a rifle, addressed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Mr. -Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm -labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of -microfilm? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That microfilm will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1. - -(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, was Exhibit No. 773 developed from a -negative contained in Cadigan Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it was printed from that roll. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 780, consisting -of the Marine Corps file of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. -778, consisting of two letters extracted from Oswald's State Department -file; Commission Exhibit No. 781, consisting of a passport application -by Lee Harvey Oswald, dated June 25, 1963--at least "Passport Issued -June 25, 1963"; and Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, consisting of a letter from -Lee Harvey Oswald to John B. Connally, then Secretary of the Navy. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 2.) - -Mr. CADIGAN. This is in two parts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In two parts, and the second part consists of a letter -from Lee Harvey Oswald to a Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins, dated -7 March 1962, and a group of documents, comprising photographs of the -balance of Lee Harvey Oswald's State Department file, labeled Cadigan -Exhibit No. 3. - -(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I ask you whether you have examined these various items. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you explain the meaning of the -term standard or "known documents" as used in the field of -questioned-document examination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Known standards are samples of writings of an -individual which are known to be in his writing and which are available -for comparison with questioned or suspect writings. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined certain questioned writings allegedly -prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, have you, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your examination, what documents did you use as known -documents? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, Commission Exhibit No. 781, -Commission Exhibit No. 778, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, and Commission -Exhibit No. 780. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, during the balance of the examination -I will refer to these documents collectively as the known or standard -writings. Mr. Cadigan, a portion of the known documents and a portion -of the questioned documents are photographs rather than originals; is -that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you able to identify the handwriting of an -individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you make an identification, such an -identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if -the photograph was sufficiently clear? - -Mr. CADIGAN. If the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate -for the handwriting comparison. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Similarly with standards, if your only standard was a -photograph or your only standards were photographs? - -Mr. CADIGAN. If your standards were also photographs, it is possible to -make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And were the photographs in this case, both the standard -and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the basis of an -opinion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out that some of the known standards -are original documents and not photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I am aware of that, but I wanted to set out on the -record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. They are adequate. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To serve as standards. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Commission Exhibit No. 773, did you compare -the handwriting on that exhibit with the writing in the known standards -to see if they were written by the same person? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That the writer of the known standards, Lee Harvey Oswald, -prepared the handwriting and hand printing on Commission Exhibit No. -773. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs or charts which you could -use to demonstrate the reason for that, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you produce them? You are handing me an enlarged -photograph of Commission Exhibit No. 773, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And constitutes an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. -773? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A.) - -And have you prepared photographs of the standards, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The first photograph is an enlargement of the letter to -Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins? Is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 4. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 4.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the second photograph is an enlargement of a letter -from the State Department file, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Enlargement of a letter in the State Department file. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the State Department file? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 5. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 5.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. The third is an enlargement of a second letter in the -State Department file, the first letter having been dated "Received -November 1, 1962," and this letter dated "December 7, 1962, Received -December 11, 1962," is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 6. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 6.) - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a letter to the State Department without an -apparent date, beginning, "Dear Sirs: Please forward receipts to me for -final payment of my loan" and so forth, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 7. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 7.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is another letter from the State Department file, -reading, Dear Sirs, please add this $10.00 to my account No. 38210 -dated October 8. Is that also from the State Department file, Mr. -Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 8. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 8.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is the letter to then Secretary of the Navy John -B. Connally and a page from the letter to Brigadier General R. McC. -Tompkins, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 9. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 9.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is in two parts, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is two pages. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a photograph of the passport application -referred to earlier? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 10.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. And, finally, a photograph of the reverse side of that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which will also be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. - -Now, in each case, Mr. Cadigan, were these photographs prepared by you -or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. They were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are they accurate photographs of the items described -as being the subject of the photographs? - -Mr. CADIGAN. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, with reference to your enlargement, -Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, and your photographs of standards, Cadigan -Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, could you state some of the reasons which -led you to the conclusion that Commission Exhibit No. 778, of which -Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is an enlargement, is in the writing of Lee -Harvey Oswald, the author of the known documents? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; on Commission Exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. You can refer to your photographs. - -Mr. CADIGAN. The enlarged photograph, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, -contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with -the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. I compared -both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not -the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was -present in both the questioned and the known documents. I found many -characteristics, some of which I would point out. - -On the order blank, in the "A. Hidell" and in the wording "Dallas -Texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "A" -in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is made in the same manner as the capital -letter "A" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The letter is formed with a short -straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. The top of it -is peaked or pointed. The right side is straight, and is shorter than -the initial stroke. The capital letter "D" in Dallas is characterized -by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a 30 deg. angle. The lower loop -in some instances is closed. In the word "Dallas" the loop is closed, -and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. The same -characteristic I found in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, and 6 as well -as other exhibits. The word "Texas" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A is -characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that -the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt -change of motion to the following letter "a." This same characteristic -I observed in the known standard on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 9, and 4. - -In the address portion of the envelope, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, -appears the word "Dept." I noticed here, again, the same formation -of the capital "D." In addition, the entire word "Dept" appears -in the known standards on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. The -characteristics I would point out here are in the letter "p" in Cadigan -Exhibit No. 3, where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow -staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects -above the staff. The letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. In -the handprinting appearing in the exhibit marked Cadigan Exhibit -No. 3-A, the wording "Dallas, Texas" contains a number of the same -characteristics as Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, where the same wording -appears, and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 7 and 8. The writer uses a -script-type "D," and prints the other letters in the word "Dallas." -The "A" again is made in a similar way to the "A" in "A. Hidell," with -a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the -way up the left side of the stroke. The letter is relatively narrow, -and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. In the double "L" -combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. The -"S" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a 30-degree angle. In the -word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A the writer has used a small "e" -following the letter "T." The same characteristics will be noted on -Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 7, and 8. - -Additionally, I noted that in addition to the shape of the letters -themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between -the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned -documents are the same. - -On Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, in the portion for address, appears the -notation "P.O. Box 2915," and this same wording appears on Cadigan -Exhibit No. 5, and on No. 7 and No. 8 except for the "P.O." portion. -Here, again, I observed the same formation of the individual letters; -the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned -and known were observed to be the same. - -The tail of the "5" is made with a relatively long stroke and the same -characteristic appears in the known standards. In the hand printed -name "A. Hidell," on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, another characteristic -I noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "Hidell." The writer -makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in -the name. This same characteristic I observed on Cadigan Exhibit -No. 10, the passport application. With reference to the "i" dot on -Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the name "Hidell," in the return portion, -the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the -following letter "d." In the portion of the word "Chicago"--of the name -"Chicago"--in the address portion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, the "i" dot -is between the "o" and the "g" in "Chicago" and is well above the line -of writing. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 4 I observed the same displacement -of the "i" dot. In some instances, it is slightly to the right of the -body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from -the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the -bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right. - -Based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which -I have pointed out, as well as others, I reached the opinion that the -handwriting and handprinting on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A were written by -Lee Harvey Oswald, the writer of the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits -Nos. 4 through 10. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, the photographs which comprise Cadigan -Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10 are actually somewhat more limited than the -standards, in that they represent in some cases excerpts from the -standards, is that correct? Such as excerpts from the Marine Corps file? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you refer to the standards, Cadigan Exhibits -Nos. 4 through 10, do you mean by that that you based your conclusion -only on the excerpts shown in Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; the exhibits, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, were -merely prepared for demonstration purposes. The original examination -and comparison was made using all of the writings, the handwriting and -handprinting in the State Department file, the Marine Corps file, the -passport application and the two letters, one to Governor Connally and -one to Brigadier General Tompkins. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the documents which you identified very -close to the beginning of the deposition, and which I referred to -collectively as the standards? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 788, -and ask you if you have examined that exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that is the money order which was -included with the purchase order to Klein's. Have you prepared a -photograph of that exhibit, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 11. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 11.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this was taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate photograph of the money order, -Exhibit No. 788? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare Exhibit No. 788 with the standards to -determine whether Exhibit No. 788 had been written by Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That the postal money order, Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, had -been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The postal money order is Commission Exhibit No. 788 and -your picture is Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain some of the points of identity which -led you to the conclusion that you formed? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think that using the wording "Dallas, Texas" -appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 839 as an example of some of the -handwriting characteristics present on this exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean Cadigan Exhibit No. 11? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. In the wording "Dallas, Texas," the writing is quite -characteristic. I noted, again, the overall size, spacing, slant, and -relative proportions of letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 were the same -as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6, and that the letter "D" was characterized -on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 with a relatively short staff, with a rather -long retrace on the left side of the staff, the body of the letter -ending in a large curling stroke. The small letter "a" is rather narrow -and somewhat flat. There is a rather long smooth connecting stroke -between the "a" and the double letter "l." The "s" is almost triangular -in shape, and has no ending stroke or tail to the right. - -Further, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, in the word "Texas" I noted again -the rather unusual shape of the small letter "x," in that it appears -almost as though it were a letter "u." The capital letter "T" in -"Texas" has a very long curved beginning stroke and a small eyelet or -loop in the lower portion of the letter. - -I noted these same characteristics on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6 in the -wording Dallas, Texas, and certain of the letters on Cadigan Exhibits -Nos. 6, 7, 8, and the entire word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 4. - -I noted also, again, that the small letter "p" in the word "sporting" -on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 was made the same as the "p's" in the known -standards as well as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the word "Dept," in -that the staff is long, in the form of a long closed loop, and the -upper portion of the letter extends above the staff and the body of the -letter is not closed to the staff. - -I further noted that on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 the wording "P.O. Box -2915" contained the same characteristics as the same wording in Cadigan -Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. And here again, based on a combination of -personal handwriting characteristics in the entire writing, I reached -the opinion that Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 had been written by Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. -135, which, for the record, is an order used for the purchase of the -revolver that was apparently used to murder Officer Tippit, and I ask -you whether you examined that exhibit. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you taken a photograph of that exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which you now have before you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have an enlarged photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be Cadigan Exhibit No. 12. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 12.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It is an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. 135? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, did you compare Commission Exhibit No. 135 -with the standard or known writings of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion as to the origin of 135? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That it was written by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give some of the reasons that led you to -form that conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same -combination of individual handwriting characteristics, both handwriting -and handprinting. For example, again the wording "Dallas, Texas," is -handprinted on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, and the same characteristics -appear in the same wording on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 7, 6, and 8. -The formation of the individual letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, the -spacing of the letters, the proportions of the letters, were found to -be the same as on the known standards. - -Additionally, the capital letter "D" in the name "Drittal" on Cadigan -Exhibit No. 12 has a rather unusual appearance in the upper portion of -the letter in that it is very pointed and wedge-shaped, and I found -this same shape present on the reverse side of the passport application -on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, page 2 in the word "Dec." - -Again, I noted the rather long tail or ending stroke on the number "5" -in the address portion of this exhibit. Again, based on finding the -same combination of individual handwriting habits in the questioned and -known writings, I concluded that Commission Exhibit No. 135 was written -by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 791, -which, for the record, is an application by Oswald for post office box -2915, dated October 9, 1962, and ask you whether you have examined that -exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, Mr. -Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 13. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 13.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it a true and accurate photograph of 791? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether Commission Exhibit -No. 791 had been prepared by the author of the standards, Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That Lee Harvey Oswald had prepared the hand printing, -signature, and date on Commission Exhibit No. 791. This excludes the -box number and the wording "Dallas, Tex.," in the lower right portion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give some of the reasons why you came to that -conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the reasons are basically the same, the presence -of the same combination of both handwritten and hand printed -characteristics in the known and questioned exhibits. On Cadigan -Exhibit No. 18 we have the hand printed wording---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 18? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, excuse me, the passport -application, we have the wording "LEE OSWALD." This hand printed -signature is quite distinctive in the formation of the individual -letters, in the spacing of the letters, and their slant. For example, -the letter "L" on both Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan Exhibit -No. 10, there is a small hook in the upper left portion where the -downstroke begins, and there is a little tent or hill at the base of -the letter. The double letter "E's" also have a curve, a dent at the -base of the letter, although not so pronounced. Both letters, both -letter "E's," are approximately the same height as the "L." - -In the last name "OSWALD" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan -Exhibit No. 10 the "O" has a pointed or tented appearance in the upper -right portion, and the ending stroke curves down into the body of the -letter. The "S" and "W" in both the questioned and known are smaller -than the following capital letter "A." This capital letter "A" in both -instances is made in the same manner as previously described on other -exhibits. The writer uses a lower-case or small "l," and a lower-case -or small "d" for the last two letters of his name, the "d" portion or -the letter "d" in both instances being made with a straight-slanted -stroke, then an abrupt circular stroke to the left. - -In addition on this same exhibit I noted the formation of the letter -"i." The exhibit I refer to is Cadigan Exhibit No. 13--the "i" being -made very small in relation to the other letters adjacent to it. - -This document also bears the signature "Lee H. Oswald" which, again, -is a very characteristic signature. It appears in Cadigan Exhibit No. -13, the questioned document, and Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, -9, and 10. The signature I noted was written rather rapidly. It is -somewhat distorted in appearance. The initial "L" has a rather long -curved beginning stroke and relatively narrow upper and lower portions -of the letter. The letter "H" is made with two parallel strokes and -it can be seen that there is a very little retrace from the base of -the first stroke in the letter to the top of the second stroke in the -letter. - -The "O" combination is rather unusual in that the writer swings -into the letter "s" from the top of the "O." Also, as the signature -progresses to the right it increases in size, and very noticeably in -the "ld" portion where the "d" stands well above the line of writing. -And in this particular signature there is a long-swinging stroke from -the top of the "d," having a shape similar to a "u" lying on its side. -The base of the letter has a very sharp angular formation. - -Again, based on a combination of the same individual handwriting and -hand printing characteristics, I reached the opinion that Commission -Exhibit No. 791 was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 793, -consisting of a change-of-address card relating to box 2915. Have you -examined that exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph thereof? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 14. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 14.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is an accurate reproduction of -Commission Exhibit No. 793? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, getting back for a moment to Cadigan -Exhibit No. 13, I see that there is another picture shown on that -exhibit, apart from the one as to which you testified. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. That is a Post Office Department Form 1093, -application for post office box, and the post office box number is -6225, and it is signed, Lee H. Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And why is that included on the picture with Cadigan -Exhibit No. 13, or rather on the picture with Commission Exhibit No. -791? Is that because they were both from---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; it is part of another post office application that -does not relate to box 2916. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any particular reason for printing that up -with the photograph of Exhibit No. 791? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. I think it may have been part of another exhibit which -has not as yet been introduced. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does your identification of Exhibit No. 791 in any way -depend upon that photograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; not at all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So we can disregard it for our purposes? - -Mr. CADIGAN. If you want to, I can take it out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is in. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I mean I can just cut it along here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would rather leave it in, since it is in the record. - -Mr. CADIGAN. All right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I just wanted to make sure that it didn't need to be -discussed as part of the identification of Exhibit No. 791, and I take -it it does not? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, getting back to Commission Exhibit No. 793 and the -photograph thereof, which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14, did you attempt to -determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 793 had been prepared by Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The photograph of which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14. And -what was your conclusion on that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Again, that Commission Exhibit No. 793 was written by -Lee Harvey Oswald, again based upon finding the same combination of -individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics in both the -questioned writing and the known standards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss some of those common characteristics? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Here, again, the entire word "Dallas" and the word -Texas is made in a very characteristic manner which I have described -before, and which appears on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 6, 7, and 8. - -The signature "Lee H. Oswald" was found to have the same -characteristics as the known signatures, although here I noted that in -the ending "d" in Oswald the stroke was less cursive than the ending -"d" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, in that the writer makes a rather -narrow loop and does not cross the staff of the letter "d." I noted -this characteristic, also, in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10. I would -like to point out that here, again, the writer varies his individual -characteristics, which is entirely normal and expected, and actually -it adds weight to the characteristic to find that it does vary to -some degree. All writing, particularly signatures, are never exactly -duplicated and some variation is normally expected, and finding the -same variations in both questioned and known signatures increases the -value of it, so that, again, the presence of the same combination of -handwriting and hand printing characteristics in Cadigan Exhibit No. 14 -in the known exhibits enabled me to reach the opinion that Commission -Exhibit No. 793 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You used the term "cursive" in respect to this. Can you -explain the meaning of that term? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the ending "d" stroke is made with a flourish or a -sweeping motion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. -14 the stroke ends abruptly at the staff of the letter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And why do you call one "more cursive"? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Merely for description. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the term "cursive" apart -from your use in this instance? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I think cursive has also been used to describe the -roundness of writing as opposed to an angular shape. I think it also is -sometimes used to distinguish between handwriting and hand printing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 795, -consisting of an item purporting to be a Selective Service System -notice of classification in the name of "Alek James Hidell"; Commission -No. 801, a Selective Service System notice of classification in the -name of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 802, a registration -certificate of the Selective Service System in the name of Lee Harvey -Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 803, a photographic negative; Commission -Exhibit No. 804, a photograph negative; Commission Exhibit No. 805, a -photograph negative; and Commission Exhibit No. 811, a photographic -negative, and I ask you whether you have examined these various items? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Based on that examination, Mr. Cadigan, could you -discuss your conclusions concerning Commission Exhibit No. 795? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Commission Exhibit No. 795 is a fraudulent and -counterfeit reproduction made from the retouched photographic negatives -in Commission Exhibits Nos. 804, 805, and 811 which in turn were made -from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how were they prepared precisely, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. These are photographic reproductions. What was done was -to take a genuine Selective Service System notice of classification, -Commission Exhibit No. 801 in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. From -this, a photographic negative was prepared. Then various portions of -the information, including the name, the selective service number, the -signature of the clerk of the local board were obliterated with a red -opaque substance, and I noted that in the course of this the individual -preparing the negative had inadvertently cut off portions of the -printed letters, had thickened printed lines, and especially I noted in -the signature portion had destroyed portions of the printed letters, -and I compared the Commission Exhibit No. 795 with the retouched -negative itself, and observed that the defects in the Commission -Exhibit No. 795 were due to the retouching of the negative. Although -the negative has been blotted out, or the information has been blotted -out, it is readily visible to the naked eye that on Commission Exhibit -No. 893, which was also examined in connection with the examination -of Commission Exhibit No. 795, the original writing, the original -signature and the typed information "Lee Harvey Oswald" and selective -service number is the same as it appears on Commission Exhibit No. 801. -The opaquing is merely to remove this information photographically. -There was an intervening step where a small negative or a reduced -negative of the lower portion of the face of the card which refers -to the penalty for violation concerning carrying the card itself was -made. The individual responsible made a reduced photograph but, again, -the same characteristics are apparent, and by comparing the print, the -photographic print Commission Exhibit No. 795 with these negatives, -it is possible to determine that the Commission Exhibit No. 795 was -produced from the negatives and the negatives in turn were produced -from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802. - -In this connection, I would point out that the reverse side of -Commission Exhibit 795 is the form used for a registration certificate, -and it is not a proper face of a notice of classification. Here, again, -the same procedure was followed. The original card is photographed. -The unwanted information is painted out with an opaque substance, and -then a photographic print is prepared. Then the individual responsible -typed in the information "Alek James Hidell" with the selective service -number, descriptive data on the reverse, and the number of the local -board. - -Further, an examination of the Commission Exhibit No. 795 shows the -individual had placed the photograph in a typewriter and struck -a number of keys which did not print. The indentations from the -typewriter keys can be clearly seen in side lighting. Also, in the -selective service number on the face of the card and the data on the -back of the card, indentations of typewriter keys were noted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning to the negatives, I see that in -Commission Exhibit No. 803, as you pointed out, the information that -was originally on the card is visible. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Whereas, in Commission Exhibit No. 894 it is not visible. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the difference? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; because Commission Exhibit No. 804 is an intermediate -step. Commission Exhibit No. 803 was first prepared, and a print was -made from this exhibit. The photographic print would not have the name -"Lee Harvey Oswald" in red on it. In the place of "Lee Harvey Oswald" -it would show as a blank. Then using the print, a second negative -is prepared, and further retouching is done, and also the warning -notice in a reduced form is inserted into the negative, so that the -data from the original notice of classification issued in the name of -Oswald appears on the first negative and does not appear on the second -negative, but both negatives are directly linked to the original card -of Oswald and to the counterfeit reproduction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, have you prepared photographs of this card showing -some of the details you have been discussing? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 15. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 15.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This Cadigan Exhibit---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Actually, there are four different photographs, -photographic enlargements that comprise Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, the -face and reverse of the notice of classification made in normal -lighting, and the face and reverse of the card made with side lighting -showing the typewritten indentations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's mark those, then, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, -and 17, and 18. - -(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 18, -17, and 18.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 shows the face with normal -lighting? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 16 shows the reverse with normal -lighting? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 17 shows the face with side lighting? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 18 shows the reverse with side -lighting? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These exhibits also contain pictures of another -questioned document which we will get to shortly, and that is the -certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell, is that -correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, starting with Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, could you -discuss several of the features on which you base the conclusions you -have given us earlier? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. The observation of this exhibit will show in the -blocks for the selective service number fragmentary portions of the -original selective service number. The lines have been thickened. In -the space provided for "been classified in Class," in the middle, in -approximately the middle of the space there is a heavy dotted line. By -comparing this with the original card issued in the name "Oswald" is -seen the lower portion of the capital letter "I." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That we will mark Cadigan Exhibit No. 19. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 19.) - -Mr. CADIGAN. On the right-hand side of the card the word "President" -appears, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 a portion of the "r" and the "e" -is missing, due to the retouching. Examination of the corresponding -area on Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows that this was due to retouching a -portion of the signature of the local board. Similarly, in the wording -"heavy penalty for violation" appearing below the signature, the word -"violation" is considerably distorted in that portions of the various -letters are missing. The negative shows this is due to retouching, and -a comparison with the original card of Oswald, of which Cadigan Exhibit -No. 19 is an enlargement, shows where the lower loops of the letter -"f" cut into the letter, cut into the printed word "violation," which -required retouching by the individual to remove it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of these negatives to -illustrate these points? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is that photograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20.) - -Mr. CADIGAN. And by referring to the Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, which -shows the retouching, examination of the area in the word "President" -will show where the portion of the "r" has been cut off. It will show -where the capital letter "I" appears in the space provided "been -classified in Class," the "I" being part of the classification, Roman -numeral "IV-A," which appears on the original card. - -Cadigan Exhibit No. 20 shows, also, the intermediate negative where the -size of the warning appearing on the bottom of the card was reduced, -and the additional retouching made that causes the distorted appearance -of the word "violation" on the Commission Exhibit No. 795, so that -it was based on my comparison side by side of the negatives, the -photographic print, and the original exhibit in the wallet of Oswald, -which enabled me to determine that this Commission Exhibit No. 795 was -a fraudulent counterfeit made from retouched negatives which, in turn, -were made from the original exhibits, Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and -802. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think that Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 16, 17, and 18 are -self-explanatory. - -Mr. CADIGAN. They merely serve to illustrate the indented typewriting -that appears on these exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 806, -purporting to be a certificate of service that Alek James Hidell has -honorably served on active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps, and ask you -whether you have examined that document? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 812, consisting of -two negatives. Have you examined those negatives? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination, have you come to any -conclusion as to the construction of Commission Exhibit No. 806? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; again, this is a fraudulent and counterfeit -reproduction made from photographic negatives which, in turn, were made -from the original card issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And where does that appear? That is the photograph you -are handing me now, which we will label Cadigan Exhibit No. 21? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 21.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 includes the selective service -registration certificate we have been discussing, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; it includes an enlargement of the original Selective -Service System registration certificate issued in the name of Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is the Selective Service System certificate on -which the forgery in the name of Hidell was based? - -Mr. CADIGAN. From which the reverse side of the forged or the -fraudulent and counterfeit notice of classification was prepared. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Focusing our attention on the certificate of service, -could you illustrate by use of this photograph and any others you -have already introduced some of the points which led you to your -conclusion---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As to Commission Exhibit No. 806? - -Mr. CADIGAN. The two negatives in Commission Exhibit No. 812, which -appear on Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, show the areas of retouching. -Examination of the negatives themselves in Commission Exhibit No. 812 -shows that the original entries on the face and reverse side can be -seen. It appears in red. The face reads "Lee Harvey Oswald, 1653230." -And the reverse side bears his signature. - -From a study of the negatives and from the enlarged photographs, -Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, 17, and 18, I wish to point out some of -the evidence that links these three items together. On Cadigan Exhibit -No. 16, on the reverse side in the printed word "signature," the "u" is -misshapen, due to some of the retouched substance crossing the letter, -and this is exactly in the area where the upper portion of the name -"Lee" appears on the original card. This is seen on Cadigan Exhibit No. -21. - -Also on the line below, in which appears the printed wording "signature -of certifying officer," in the letter "n" in "certifying" can be seen -a long line which at first glance might appear to be a part of the -signature "A. G. Ayers, Jr.," but which corresponds exactly to the -ending stroke of the letter "y" in "Harvey." - -Also, in the printed word "officer" on the same line can be seen the -effects of the retouch in that the upper part of the first "f" has been -cut off by the retouch substance. So that by a study and a comparison -of the Commission Exhibit No. 806 with the negatives, with particular -reference to where the retouching fluid has cut into lines or printing, -and further comparing the same negative with the original card, as -shown in Cadigan Exhibit No. 21, I determined and it can be seen that -the Commission Exhibit No. 806 was produced from the negatives in -Exhibit No. 812, which, in turn, were produced from the original card -of which Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 is a photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, in either the fraudulent selective service -notice of classification or certificate of service, have attempts been -made to reinstate portions of printed lines which were blocked out by -the opaque substance? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I didn't notice that, particularly. I noticed from a -technical standpoint that the opaquing was rather crudely done, in that -the opaquing of negatives is a common photographic technique, and with -reasonable care you can avoid cutting into lines. I didn't particularly -observe any areas where the lines had been put back in. - -This does not eliminate the possibility, because it is a very simple -matter of scratching through the opaque emulsion to produce such a line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Where the line is thickened, as is visible in Cadigan -Exhibit No. 15, how would you account for that, Mr. Cadigan? I am -looking now at Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 in the block, that portion of the -rectangular block surrounding the number "224," and particularly the -bottom of the block. - -Mr. CADIGAN. A study and examination of Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows -that these areas correspond to the figures "114" which appear in the -second block of the Selective Service number, and which were not -retouched off. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you feel that, rather than the bottom of that block -being thickened in the retouching, what you have is a residue from the -typed-in portion---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which appeared on the original card? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and this can be further seen. The right-hand side of -the block for the first two letters of the selective service number -shows a thickened area which corresponds to the numeral "1" on the -original card of Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning now for a moment to Commission -Exhibit No. 795, were you able to identify either of the two signatures -written in ink on that card, the one being "Alek J. Hidell," and the -other a signature written over the caption "Member or clerk of local -board"? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I did examine the "Alek J. Hidell" signature appearing -as the signature of registrant, but the known writings available of -Lee Harvey Oswald were not sufficiently comparable with the signature -to reach a definite opinion. I did note, however, some similarities in -the letter "A" and in the last name, the letter "H" and the ending "l." -But these were not of sufficient weight nor of sufficient number nor of -sufficient combination to warrant a definite opinion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You say you compared this item, this signature with -the known standards. Did you compare the signature with questioned -documents which you already identified? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I wonder whether after this deposition -would you compare this signature with those questioned signatures of -"Alek J. Hidell" which you have now identified? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; certainly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 817, -consisting of a portion of an application for a post office box 30061 -in New Orleans, POD Form 1093, and ask you whether you have examined -that item? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you attempted to determine whether that item, -Commission Exhibit No. 817, was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, whose -known writings we have introduced previously? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. On Commission Exhibit No. 817 the hand printed names, "A. -J. Hidell," and "Marina Oswald," and the signature "L. H. Oswald," were -written by Lee Harvey Oswald, based on a comparison with his known -standards of writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of Commission Exhibit No. -817? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does that also include a photograph of another item, -apparently another part of the application? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did your identification of the Commission Exhibit No. -817 depend in any way upon your identification of the other part of the -item which is shown in your photograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark the photograph Cadigan. Exhibit No. 22. (The -document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 22.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And it is an accurate photograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We haven't been going over that with all the other -photographs, but is that true of all the photographs we have introduced -so far? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And any other photographs you may introduce during the -balance of this deposition? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, by use of that photograph and by use of -the photographs of the standards, could you explain some of the points -which led you to your conclusion concerning Commission Exhibit No. 817? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same -combination of characteristics in the hand printing and signature on -Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. For -example, the word "Marina" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 can be compared -with the same word or the same name on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the "M" -being characterized by a rather long beginning stroke, the center of -the letter is high, giving the letter somewhat the appearance of the -numeral "3" tipped on its side. The "A" is similar to or made in the -same way as previous "A's," with a pointed top, with the beginning -stroke about two-thirds of the way up the staff. The "i", again, is -very small in relation to the letters coming before and after it. -In the "N" there is a curve at the base of the letter. It is more -pronounced on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 than in the name "Marina" in -Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, but in the name "Lillian," on the same exhibit, -the same kind of curve is observed. - -In "Oswald," again in the signature "L. H. Oswald," I find the same -characteristics and combinations of characteristics. In the questioned -signature in Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 as in the various known signatures -in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, here I think the ending "ld," -the narrow pointed loops used for the "l" and "d" are very small, and -with a rather misshapen body or upper stroke. - -Again, it is the presence of the same combination of handwriting and -hand printing characteristics which led me to the opinion that this -exhibit had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 813, -a vaccination certificate, a purported vaccination certificate, signed -by "A. J. Hidell," and I ask you whether you have examined that item? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this bears writing on the outside and the inside. -Have you attempted to determine whether that writing is the writing of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That the hand printing and the Oswald signature were -written by Lee Harvey Oswald, again based on the presence of the same -combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of this exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Those will be Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24. - -(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24.) - -Mr. CADIGAN. I would point out that these represent only a portion -of the original document, since for demonstration purposes the lower -printed blank is not included in these exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely -faint writing. Can you explain the reason for that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent -fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was the document treated to restore the original color -after it had been treated for fingerprints? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it -has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the -chemical treatment remain. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you first saw the document and made your -examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had -it been treated yet for fingerprints? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I never saw the original. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You never saw the original? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I had a Xerox copy of the original exhibit. I did not -see this original exhibit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said before you had examined this exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. To be more exact, I examined a Xerox copy of this exhibit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know who prepared the Xerox copy? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It was submitted by our Dallas office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this a copy of the front and the back? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are your photographs of the Xerox or of the original? - -Mr. CADIGAN. They are made from the Xerox. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this the first time you saw the original? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I believe it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination of the original at this -point, and a comparison of the photograph of the Xerox copies, would -you conclude that the Xerox copies had been made before the document -had been treated for fingerprints? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Very definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note a few of the points which led you to your -conclusion concerning the handwriting appearing on the documents you -photographed as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the handwritten signature "Lee H. Oswald" is written -in a very distinctive manner. The "L" with its rather long beginning -stroke, and its narrow upper, and the lower loop, is almost in the -shape of a triangle. The large loop formation at the top of the "O" -leading into the letter "s" and the loop at the base of the "s" is -almost a carbon copy of the same characteristic appearing on Cadigan -Exhibit No. 10, page 2. And again, the narrow "l" and relatively large -"d" with a very pronounced ending stroke on the "d" is typical of the -manner in which this man writes his signature. - -So also in the hand printing, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, we see the -"LEE" and the "OSWALD," the little hook at the start of the "L" and the -reverse curves at the base of both the "L" and the following "EE's." -Again, we see the use of the lowercase "l" and the lowercase "d" in -the formation of "Oswald," whereas the rest of the letters are capital -letters. - -Here, again, the presence of the same combination of characteristics -led me to the opinion that this writing had been prepared by Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the signature "A. J. Hidell"? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; it does not. This signature is distorted, and the -standards, the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald I had available for -comparison would not justify any opinion concerning this particular -signature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare it with the questioned items -which you had, theretofore, identified? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; without reaching any opinion one way or the other. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude that it was not written by Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I would not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does it bear any similarities to Oswald's handwriting at -any point? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I didn't observe any that I thought were sufficiently -significant in characteristics to warrant pointing out. It is a -question of judgment as to how you evaluate a given characteristic. I -don't see, and do not see now, any characteristic worthy of mention to -either say Oswald did or didn't do it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 115, consisting of -a rubber stamping kit, and ask you whether you have examined that -stamping kit. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the stamping on the -document which you have photographed as Cadigan Exhibit No. 23, was -produced by the rubber stamp kit, Exhibit No. 115? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What conclusion did you reach? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I couldn't reach any conclusion because the exhibit that I -had, and from which Cadigan Exhibit No. 23 was made, is a Xerox copy, -and is not adequate for the rubber stamp examination of this kind. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see anything which led you to believe that the -stamp on on the document you examined could not have been made by -Exhibit No. 115? - -Rather than answer that question, could you undertake to perform an -examination based upon the original? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At a subsequent time? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you will supply us with the results of that by -letter? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 819, consisting -of a photograph of a card, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans -Chapter, L. H. Oswald," with Oswald's signature, or a signature -purporting to be Lee H. Oswald's, and the signature "A. J. Hidell"; -and Commission Exhibit No. 820, which appears to be similar to the -photograph Exhibit No. 819, except that there is no signature apparent -in the space where the signature A. J. Hidell appears in Exhibit No -819, and I ask you whether you have examined these two items. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is Exhibit No. 819 a photograph of Exhibit No. 820? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 820 is seriously discolored now and does not -have the words "A. J. Hidell" apparent. Can you explain how that came -about? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the original Commission Exhibit No. 820 had been -treated for latent fingerprints, and this is a chemical process which -has removed the ink of the signature. However, on examination under -strong side lighting and using low-power magnification, portions of the -letters "A," "J," and "H," of the signature of the chapter president -can be discerned, and are in the same place on the photograph, -Commission Exhibit No. 819, as on the original, Commission Exhibit No. -820. - -Furthermore, a comparison of the writing and the rubber stamp, -especially with reference to the position of these with respect to -lines and printing and other fixed points on the card, definitely shows -that Commission Exhibit No. 819 is a photograph of Exhibit No. 820, and -made before it was treated for latent fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apart from this, did you take the photograph, -Exhibit No. 819? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; the photograph was made in our photographic laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you did see Exhibit No. 820, before it had been -discolored, did you not? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I don't recall at this time. It may well be that I did, -but I have no independent recollection of it now. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that your testimony that Exhibit No. 819 is a -photograph of Exhibit No. 820 is based upon your evaluation of the two -items as they exist now rather than upon recollection of Exhibit No. -820 before it was discolored? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or -desilvered? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee H. Oswald" or -rather L. H. Oswald is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is -not? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Some inks are more soluble in the solution used for -fingerprint tests than others? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Other Commission Exhibits, specifically Nos. 788, 801, -and 802 also appear to have been treated for fingerprints? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 788 has been desilvered? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Desilvered, and Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802 are still in -their original silvered condition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see these items before they were treated for -fingerprints? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I know I saw Exhibit No. 788 before it was treated for -fingerprints. As to Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802, I don't know at this -time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are the photographs which you produced photographs of -the items before they were treated for fingerprints or after? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; before they were treated for fingerprints. In other -words, it is regular customary practice to photograph an exhibit before -it is treated for latents for exactly this reason, that in the course -of the treatment there may be some loss of detail, either total or -partial. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take the photographs? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you referring to the photographs which you produced -at an earlier point? - -Mr. CADIGAN. The photographs that I have produced here today, the -various enlargements, were made from negatives. These negatives, in -turn, were made at the time the original exhibits were photographed, -and this would be before latent fingerprint treatment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I asked you when I introduced those exhibits whether -they had been prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You meant, then, that they were prepared under your -supervision, or did you mean that they were prepared by you in the -sense that you made the enlargement from the negative? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; they were prepared under my supervision. In other -words, I maintain all of the negatives in connection with the document -aspects of this file in my room, under lock and key, at all times. I -pull the negatives that I want enlarged, and I prepare a photograph -requisition, take it down to our photographers, tell them what I want, -and then later go back and pick up the enlargements, and check them to -be sure they are just what I want. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the negative itself? Can you state of your -own knowledge whether the negative itself is of the original? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Only, insofar, that I know that on November 23, when the -vast bulk of this material came in, that it was photographed. Some of -these items I saw before they were photographed, and some afterward. -But the exact sequence to select one item out of four or five hundred, -I cannot, in all honesty, say I definitely recall seeing this before it -was photographed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what the procedure is when a document -came in involving the assassination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Initially, the first big batch of evidence was brought -into the laboratory on November 23 of 1963 and this consisted of many, -many items. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 1963? - -Mr. CADIGAN. November 23, 1963. It was a very large quantity of -evidence that was brought in. There were several agent examiners -available to evaluate this material. There were supervisory officials, -there were representatives from our Internal Security Division, all of -whom had an interest in this matter, and it was decided they wanted -certain items treated for latent fingerprints. The basic rule is -always that before an exhibit is treated for latent fingerprints it is -photographed, and that is what was done in this case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What happens to the negative after it is photographed? -Were they all given to you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the negatives that pertain to the document aspects -I took over and maintained under my control. Negatives pertaining to -firearms evidence or hairs or fibers, they were turned over to Mr. -Frazier. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So under the regular procedure, as soon as the document -came in it would be photographed, before it was treated for latents and -the negative would be turned over to you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So at least if the procedure had been followed, any -negative you had would be a negative of a document before it had been -treated for fingerprints, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning to Commission Exhibits Nos. 820 and 819, -did you prepare a photograph which would show the remnants of the -signature A. J. Hidell on the Commission Exhibit No. 820? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the preparation of such a photograph possible? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I doubt it very much, because the indentations are so -faint that the enlargement would serve no useful purpose. Actually, -the best examination is by low-power magnification under the proper -lighting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the signature of -Lee H. Oswald on this card was written by Lee H. Oswald? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That the Lee H. Oswald signature on Commission Exhibit No. -820 was written by Lee H. Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the signature "A. J. Hidell"? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I was unable to reach a conclusion. First of all, at the -time I compared this signature the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald -were inadequate for this particular comparison. - -I did, however, note that there were certain differences in this -signature that indicate the possibility of someone other than Oswald -having prepared it. But in my opinion, the characteristics I observed -were not of sufficient weight for a positive opinion in this regard. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note those characteristics? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think the capital letter "A" and the capital letter -"H" in "Hidell" are different from the "A's" that Oswald makes, that -appear in the enlarged photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Anything else? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I think the lower case "d," especially in the rounded -shape of the body of it and the relatively short height of the staff, -so that the staff compared to the body is very short. The "J" is -made different or in a different manner than Oswald regularly makes -or usually makes his "J's" in the known standards, but again it is -a question of judgment as to whether you believe a combination of -characteristics is enough to either eliminate or identify. In this -instance, in my opinion, these differences point to the possibility of -another writer other than Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You indicated before, also, that there was another ink -used. - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. This, of course, in and of itself, is of -no consequence, since the same person can use two different pens, so -the color of the ink would not be, in my mind, significant. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that signature appear to have been written -naturally? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At normal speed? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any evidence of retouching? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Generally, were the signatures and other handwritings -in the questioned documents you have reviewed in this deposition today -written naturally? - -Mr. CADIGAN. With the exception of the "Hidell" signature on his -certificate of vaccination. There is, in my opinion, distortion -present there. But, by and large, in fact in almost all of the various -handwritings, hand printings, and signatures, there is no evidence of -disguise or distortion, in my opinion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What type of evidence indicates disguise or distortion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Distortion and disguise can take many forms. It can be -in the form of a change in slant, a deliberate malformation of the -individual letters. It can be shown in broken or interrupted strokes. -It can be shown in waves or wiggles in the line itself which should -not normally be there. It may be occasioned by a person using other -than normal hand, a left-handed person writing with his right hand or -a right-handed person writing with his left hand. All these introduce -elements of distoration or disguise. The extent of it can only be -determined by comparing a given writing with known writings, and -observing the characteristics present, and on that basis you can then -formulate an opinion as to whether or not there is any appreciable -amount of distortion or disguise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How would you evaluate the possibility of another -person having simulated the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald in these -questioned documents? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I don't think there is any possibility. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On what do you base that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I base that on 23 years experience and judgment and the -examination of the documents and the various writings involved in this -instance. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do I understand that if that had happened, the -person would have left evidence behind which you would have detected? - -Mr. CADIGAN. In my opinion, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be in what form? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It would be in many forms. Failure to incorporate into the -writings things that should be there, and including in the writings -things that are not in Oswald's writing, differences in slant, spacing, -proportions of letters, both to other letters and proportions of -letters within themselves, the adoption of the various variations that -you find in the known writings. When the amount of writing approaches -the amount involved here, there is a large, a relatively large volume -of questioned writings. The possibilities of successful or undetectible -forgery, in my opinion, are nil. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 1, -which is a note in the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you -whether you have examined that item? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit Nos. 55, 56, and -66, consisting of various notes in the cyrillic language, rather in -the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have -examined those notes? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who is the purported signer of those notes, Exhibits -Nos. 55, 56, and 66? - -Mr. CADIGAN. From the translation that I read these are purportedly -written by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these have also been identified by -Marina as having been written by Lee Harvey Oswald. - -And these are signed Alek in some or all cases? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; they are signed A-l-e-k, Alek in all three instances. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again, for the record, this is a name which was used for -Oswald during his period of staying in the Soviet Union. - -Have you attempted to determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 1 was -written by the person who wrote Commission Exhibits Nos. 55, 56, and 66? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That Commission Exhibit No. 1 was written by Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs of Commission Exhibits -Nos. 55, 56, and 66? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; of the letters contained in those exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark those as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, 27, -and 28. - -(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, -27, and 28.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you also taken a photograph of Commission Exhibit -No 1? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark that as Cadigan Exhibit No. 29---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Front and back. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, representing respectively -the back and front of Commission Exhibit No. 1. - -(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 29 and 30.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by use of photographs Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 -through 30, could you explain some of the reasons which led you to your -conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and I would point out that in addition to the four -enlargements written in Russian, I also used Cadigan Exhibits or the -documents represented by Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, the known -standards of Oswald, since there are English letters interspersed with -the Russian writing on Commission Exhibit No. 1. Thus, for example, in -the second line in Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 appears the word "to" which -is directly comparable to the same word appearing in Cadigan Exhibits -Nos. 4 through 10. This is characterized by a long sweeping upstroke, -and the recurving downstroke cuts the staff about in half. And the "o" -is without any tail, and it is relatively small and set fairly close -into the staff. The "t" crossing is rather long and fairly high. - -I noted these same characteristics in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through -10. - -Further, there is the wording in English, "Red Cross" appearing about -two-thirds of the way down the side of the page beginning with the -numeral 6, and here, again, I noted the same characteristics in the -English hand printing in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. Again, the -use of the small "e" and the small "d" in conjunction with the capital -"R," and then in the word "cross" he has used the capital letters. On -the face of the Commission Exhibit No. 1 appear the printed English -letters "ERVAY" which are almost directly comparable with the name "Lee -Harvey Oswald" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The E here is characterized -by the little loop at the base of the staff. The "R" has a flat closed -loop on the left side of the staff. The "Y" is constructed of two -strokes, almost a perfect "V" shape for the body and a tail slanting -back away from it. - -The letter "p" or what appears to be the letter "p," indicated by -the roman numeral 2 and a red arrow, is similar to the English "p," -characterized by a long narrow staff without much of a loop. The body -of the letter extends above the staff and the base is open. The bottom -of the letter is not closed in. - -The numeral "1" on the chart Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to a Russian -character which resembles somewhat the English letter "G," the capital -letter G. This is characterized by a rather large elongated loop along -the left side of the upstroke, and the finishing stroke is short and -straight. - -The numeral "3" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the Russian -word which resembles the English word "tbi." The "t" has a very long -beginning upstroke. The crossing of the "t" is high and is at the top -of the letter. The b is formed with a straight staff on the back side, -and there is a well spaced connection to the following letter which -resembles the English letter "i." - -I further noted that on this same side of the document shown in Cadigan -Exhibit No. 29 in the second to the last line from the bottom appears -the combination "exa," which is directly comparable with the "exa" in -"Texas" appearing on the photograph Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 4, and -9, among others. Again this characteristic way of making the "x" is -almost like a "u" or an open "o." There is a little extra stroke that -breaks off of the "x" so that instead of looking like "exa" it has the -appearance of "eva" with a diagonal stroke through the "v." - -The number "6" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the -combination which looks like the English letters "Ha," where the same -two letters appear on the photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 and 26, -the "H" being made in two roughly parallel straight strokes. The "a" -is almost in the form of a circle, and the tail of the "a" runs out -horizontally to the line of writing. - -On Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, the number "8" in red with an arrow points -to the combination of letters which resemble the English letters "tak," -and this same combination or the same letters appear on Cadigan Exhibit -No. 27. Again, the "t" has a rather long beginning stroke. The crossing -is high and long, and I noted that the "k" in both instances is made in -a similar manner. - -The figure "9" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 30 also points to a different -style of k, or what resembles the English letter "k," in that it is -composed of a straight staff and the body or the right portion of the -letter is almost the shape of a v tilted on its side. - -Because of this combination of characteristics, as well as many others, -I reached the opinion that Government's Exhibit No. 1 was written by -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 1, that is? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, of which Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 30 and 29 are -photographic enlargements. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Cadigan. Thank you very -much. You have been extremely helpful. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF EARLENE ROBERTS - -The following affidavit was executed by Earlene Roberts on December 5, -1963. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Earlene Roberts, after being duly sworn, do depose and state: - -I live at 1026 Beckley, Dallas, Texas, where I serve as housekeeper for -a rooming house owned by Mr. & Mrs. A. C. Johnson. - -On Friday, November 22, 1963, at approximately 1:00 pm I was sitting in -the living room watching television about the President's assassination -when a man I knew as O. H. Lee, but who has since been identified as -Lee Harvey Oswald, came into the front door and went to his room. -Oswald did not have a jacket when he came in the house and I don't -recall what type of clothing he was wearing. - -Oswald went to his room and was only there a very few minutes before -coming out. I noticed he had a jacket he was putting on. I recall the -jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front. He -was zipping the jacket up as he left. - -Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. -I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop just to the -right, and on the same side of the street as our house. I just glanced -out the window that once. I don't know how long Lee Oswald stood at the -curb nor did I see which direction he went when he left there. - -About thirty minutes later three Dallas policemen came to the house -looking for Lee Harvey Oswald. We didn't know who Lee Harvey Oswald -was until sometime later his picture was flashed on television. I then -let the Dallas policemen in the room occupied by Lee Oswald. While the -Dallas police were searching the room two FBI agents came in. - -The police and FBI agents took everything in the room that belong to -Lee Oswald and also took our pillow case and two towels and wash cloths. - -I have made this statement, consisting of three pages, to Special -Agents William N. Carter and Arthur W. Blake of the U.S. Secret -Service. I have read this statement over and I find it to be true to -the best of my knowledge. - -Signed this 5th day of December 1963. - - (S) Earlene Roberts, - EARLENE ROBERTS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RALPH W. YARBOROUGH - -The following affidavit was executed by Ralph W. Yarborough on July 10, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -In response to the oral request of one of the attorneys for the -Commission that I send you an affidavit for inclusion in the record of -the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I make the following -statement: - -On November 22, 1963, as the President and Mrs. Kennedy rode through -the streets of Dallas, I was in the second car behind them. The first -car behind the Presidential car was the Secret Service car; the second -car behind them was Vice-President Lyndon Johnson's car. The driver and -a secret service agent were on the front seat of the Vice-President's -car. Vice-President Lyndon B. Johnson sat on the right side of the rear -seat of the automobile, Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson was in the center of the -rear seat, while I sat on the left side of the rear seat. - -After the Presidential motorcade had passed through the heart of -downtown Dallas, experiencing an exceptionally warm and friendly -greeting, as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the -railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close -by. I have handled firearms for fifty year, and thought immediately -that it was a rifle shot. When the noise of the shot was heard, the -motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could -have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, -another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time -between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put -the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot--by -my estimate--to me there seemed to be a long time between the first -and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third -shots--these were my impressions that day), a third shot was fired. -After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was -fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away -to the Parkland Hospital. - -I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. -I saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at -about the time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade -started up and raced away. - -Due to the second car, with the secret service men standing on steps on -the sides of it, I could not see what was happening in the Presidential -car during the shooting itself. Some of the secret service men looked -backward and to the right, in the general direction from which the -rifle explosions seemed to come. - -After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in -the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and -looked backward. However, all of the secret service men seemed to me -to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. In fact, -until the automatic weapon was uncovered, I had been lulled into a -sense of false hope for the President's safety, by the lack of motion, -excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, -that anything so dreadful was happening. Knowing something of the -training that combat infantrymen and Marines receive, I am amazed at -the lack of instantaneous response by the Secret Service, when the -rifle fire began. I make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, -not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and -I write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better -protection of our Presidents in the future. - -After we went under the underpass, on the upward slope I could see over -the heads of the occupants of the second car (Secret Service car) and -could see an agent lying across the back or trunk of the Presidential -car, with his feet to the right side of the car, his head at the left -side. He beat the back of the car with one hand, his face contorted by -grief, anguish, and despair, and I knew from that instant that some -terrible loss had been suffered. - -On arrival at the hospital, I told newsmen that three rifle shots had -been fired. There was then no doubt in my mind that the shots were -rifle shots, and I had neither then or now any doubts that any other -shots were fired. In my opinion only three shots were fired. - -The attached photograph from pages 24 and 25 of the _Saturday Evening -Post_ of December 14, 1963, shows the motorcade, as I remember it, an -instant after the first shot. [Photograph is Yarborough Exhibit A.] - -Given and sworn to this 10th day of July, 1964, at Washington, District -of Columbia. - -Signed this 10th day of July 1964. - - (S) Ralph W. Yarborough, - RALPH W. YARBOROUGH. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF KENNETH P. O'DONNELL - -The testimony of Kenneth P. O'Donnell was taken at 12:05 p.m., on May -18, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -Norman Redlich and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you rise, please? Do you solemnly swear that the -testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify -today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the -trip to Texas by President Kennedy, the events during the trip, and -the trip back to Washington, D.C., on November 22. With that general -statement of purpose, I will ask you if you have any objection to -giving a deposition at this time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Kenneth P. O'Donnell. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was special assistant to the President. I was in -charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long had you served in that capacity? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I served as special assistant to the President since the -inauguration, January 20, 1961, with the same duties. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you a party to the original conversations and -decision for President Kennedy to make a trip to Texas in November of -1963? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a -conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson, -and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President -Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there, -looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a -very vital role in President Kennedy's view. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did that first conversation occur, Mr. -O'Donnell? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We had been discussing this for almost 6 or 7 months, -but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the Vice -President's mind or in Governor Connally's mind. Governor Connally -and the Vice President had discussed this. They arrived at a general -agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of -November. I think this decision probably came in October, some time in -October. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had President Kennedy been in Dallas prior to the -trip of November 1963? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The last time the President had been in Dallas was as a -candidate for the Presidency. - -I correct myself. He had been to--visit Speaker Rayburn in the -hospital. I was not on that trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then aside from the trip to see Speaker Rayburn, in the -hospital, had the President been in Dallas at all since the campaign of -1960? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He had not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately when it was that President -Kennedy visited Speaker Rayburn in the hospital in Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know exactly. It would be just before he passed -away. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does October 1961 sound about right to you? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It sounds about right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how many times had President Kennedy been to Texas -between the campaign of 1960 and November 1963, if you know? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he had been to the Speaker's funeral at Bonham. He -had been to Houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at -Rice Stadium. And he had been to El Paso, on a military inspection tour. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. That is all I can recollect at the moment. - -Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's -trip to Texas in November of 1963? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in -Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party -problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he -could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting -President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these -two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think -that is the major reason for the trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by -his interest in making himself as President available to the people -generally in every section of the country, including Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Very definitely. The President's views of his -responsibilities as President of the United States were that he meet -the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them -to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he -sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. And he felt that -leaving Washington for the President of the United States was most -necessary--not only for the people, but for the President himself, that -he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing -the American people. It helped him in his job here, he was able to -come back here with a fresh view of many things. I think he felt very -strongly that the President ought to get out of Washington, and go meet -the people on a regular basis. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He enjoyed it very much. The President--liked people, -and he liked to mingle with people. - -Mr. SPECTER. When were the specific dates of November 21 and November -22 finally set as being the precise times for the trip to Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I am not clear in my recollection of that. I would -think some time early in November. I know Thanksgiving was one of the -problems we had to work with. We decided that would be the best time to -go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once -we agreed we were going to Texas--we would keep a file on all the -speaking engagements, all the invitations the President had received. - -I would go to that file and select some that might look promising. -One of them that I recollect was an invitation from Congressman -Albert Thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation -dinner--not the Congressman himself. And the President was very fond -of Congressman Thomas, he was most helpful to him, and I knew he would -want to go, if this was at all possible. I would think that probably -had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the 21st and -22d. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, if you recall, was the Secret Service notified of -the forthcoming trip to Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think they would be notified around the first -week in November. The general desire is that they have the specific -information at least on the places that he might go 3 weeks prior to -the trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who among the members of the Presidential staff would -be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the -Secret Service? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be my responsibility. The manner in which -we would set it up would be that I would notify the head here, who is -Gerry Behn, and Gerry Behn would ask me when we were sending people -down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time. -And I recollect that Jerry Bruno was one of them. - -The first step would be to confer with the Governor, go over the -general proposals that the Governor would make, and then bring it back -to me. And I would go over it with the Governor and the Vice President -and the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. What planning was undertaken with respect to the -determination of the motorcade route through Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think once we arrived--we chose the four cities -we were going into. And then the advance men and the Secret Service -went out. Then we would work backwards from where we had to be at -what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. And the -original--Dallas, as I recollect, was going to be an evening affair. -The Governor thought the evening affair should be in Austin, and that -we should hit Dallas around noontime. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say the evening affair, what are you referring to -specifically there? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a political dinner which was to be conducted -at Austin that evening, at the end of which the President was going -with the Vice President to the ranch. This was a political fundraising -dinner. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any conversation given at all to -omitting a motorcade through Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. None. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were the considerations behind the decision on -having a motorcade through Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. Particularly -when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give -the President as much exposure to the people of Dallas and vice versa, -the people of Dallas to the President, as possible. - -The speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. And -the President would not want to leave Dallas feeling that the only ones -that were able to see him were a rather select group. So it would be -automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the -advance man and the Secret Service would, within the time allotted to -them--would bring the President into Dallas, through an area which -exposes him to the greatest number of people. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise -route that the motorcade would follow through Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I would think it would be perhaps a -week before the final decision was made. The President would not -involve himself in anything like this. Once we agreed on where he would -go, that was my responsibility to work it out. The normal course of -events--they would say to me, "Do you want a motorcade in Dallas?" I -would say, "Yes; this is how much time you have got." They would work -out a motorcade. The Secret Service would time the route. Once they had -worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "We have -accomplished the purpose you want." The Secret Service would say it -takes so much time, the Governor would say "You have to be here at a -certain time." Once all those are put together, the route is laid out -and accepted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall how long after the determination of the -motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in -Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. I would think on the transmission to the press -that that would not come from here anyway. That would come from down -there. I would think the Governor's office would probably put that -out. We would under normal circumstances inform through Mr. Salinger's -office, I would inform him of the trip, and then I would give him a -schedule that is given to me by the Secret Service, which would give -the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that -he would arrive at 12 o'clock, address such and such a group at 1 -o'clock. So we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me, -"We are going down 12th Street"--it would not mean anything to me. So I -would think that our advance man and the Governor's advance man would -make a decision on when they were going to announce the route. - -I would think that was almost normal. You might say you wanted to do -it 4 days ahead of time in New York, and the local fellow would really -determine it--"Down here we do it this way." - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of -normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed -the determination of the motorcade route? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision -was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and -where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the -Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between -our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place -for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly -on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that -came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite -dramatically. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us if there was any consideration at all -given to omitting Dallas as a stop on the trip in Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think so; no. I would think that the President -would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other -cities, that he could not possibly go to Texas and avoid Dallas. It -would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what -really was the long-range purpose of the visit. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the long-range purpose was what, sir? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between -the two political groups in Texas who were at odds, and to assist the -President and prepare for the 1964 campaign as best he could at this -period of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's reaction towards Dallas -generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about, -say, Ambassador Stevenson's reception there? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. I think -that the President was a very charitable man. He felt that really the -picture of Dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in -many ways--was not the real picture of Dallas; that they were Americans -like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that 50 -shouting people didn't portray the city of Dallas. He had been there -in the 1960 campaign when the Vice President had been spit upon, and -the President received one of the finest receptions he ever got. He -didn't carry the city. They opposed him. But they were not particularly -different than anybody else. And that wouldn't concern him, and I -think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go -there. But I think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating -from Dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to -Texas to a 1 day venture? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect any. I do know one of the original -thoughts was that he go to this dinner in Austin, which was a political -dinner. Whether there was any consideration in some other people's -minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, I know he, number 1, -would not consider it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why not? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He would not consider it because he had a great aversion -to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he -felt that the people that were there were not really representative -of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a -business meeting. And he thought this reflected to some degree on the -office of the Presidency, that on his only visit to Texas, or any other -State in 3 years, that he came to raise money for a political party, -that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. So he he felt -it was a duty of the Presidency to expose himself to the public. So -he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered -there were some political problems in Texas--that would also be in his -judgment a bad political mistake. So I don't think there was ever any -question that he would go some place else. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you accompany the President on all phases of the trip -to Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was with him when he left. The only time that I was -not with him was at Congressman Thomas' dinner. He went to the dinner. -We ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you depart, then, from Washington, on that trip -to Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn. -I think the records show it is 10:45. But the schedule was on time, -certainly arriving there, and, as I recollect, we were on time pretty -much the whole way as the schedule would reflect. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from the helicopter at the White House lawn, where was -your first stop by helicopter? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We stopped and boarded _Air Force 1_ at Andrews Air -Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the time of 11 a.m., as reflected in the records, be -accurate as your point of departure, then, from Andrews Air Force Base? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I would think it would be. - -Mr. SPECTER. And your first stop in Texas was what? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. San Antonio. - -Mr. SPECTER. Arrival time of 1:30 p.m.--would that be an accurate time -of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in -San Antonio? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think that is right. As I say, we were on -schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at 1:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the activities at San Antonio, Tex? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We motorcaded through San Antonio and went to the -Aerospace Medical Center, where the President made a speech, and from -there to a second airport. We had moved _Air Force 1_ from one airfield -to another, on the other side of the city. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the Aerospace Center, was there a dedication there of -some new facilities? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other public appearance, then, besides the -one you mentioned, in San Antonio? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. To where did you go from San Antonio? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We flew to Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you arrive in Houston? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would have to look at the record. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it late in the afternoon on November 21? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Late in the afternoon, I would think around 4 or 5 -o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were the activities in Houston? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We drove from the airfield into the hotel. As I -recollect, there were very large crowds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a motorcade procession, also? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown -Houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. Getting in -the hotel was somewhat of a chore. - -Mr. SPECTER. What public appearances did the President then make in -Houston? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The President spoke at the appreciation dinner for -Congressman Thomas. The records will show the location. I did not -accompany him. And I went directly from the hotel to the airport, and -met him as he got aboard the plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the Presidential party depart from -Houston? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would have to guess again. I would think around -10:30 or 11 o'clock. The alternative was staying overnight in Houston, -getting in early in the morning--or getting in to Fort Worth late at -night, and allowing the President a little more rest, and we selected -going to Fort Worth that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the public appearances made by the President, -then, in Fort Worth, Tex.? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He spoke at 8 o'clock that morning at a breakfast which -was given by the business community, as I remember, came back up to his -room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. It had been raining. -The sun had just come out. He went out and spoke to a group assembled -in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs, -we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and -departed for Carswell. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how did the President travel out of Fort Worth? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He left Fort Worth in an open car, traveled by car to -Carswell. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from Carswell, what was his mode of travel? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. _Air Force 1_ to Love Field, Dallas? - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions on the arrival at Love -Field in Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather. - -Mr. SPECTER. What decision had been made as to whether to have an open -car in Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The decision had been made to have an open--if the -weather was good, he would ride in an open car. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall who made that decision? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would make that decision under normal -circumstances. But it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever -the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall at approximately what time the Presidential -party arrived at Love Field, Tex.--Love Field, Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think it would be around 11, 11:15. We were on -time. We always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always -shook hands with the crowd. So we left--my recollection is that we -departed from Love Field approximately according to the schedule. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were President Kennedy's activities at Love Field? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He had no scheduled activities. It was a matter of -assembling the motorcade. He got off _Air Force 1_, and he went over to -the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and -down. - -Mr. SPECTER. What type of a crowd was it with respect to size? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It was a large crowd. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with -respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined -up, if you recall, please? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I can't go more than--I got into the second car, -and I didn't really look behind me. There was some controversy as to -what Congressman sat in what car. We had a lot of Congressmen with us -and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which -Mr. O'Brien was more involved with than I was, as to where Senator -Yarborough and the Vice President and the Congressman sat. But it was -a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. We always tried to keep -them down as much as possible. But because of the number of Congressmen -and the dignitaries involved. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many cars were there ahead of yours? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think there was a scout car, which was the lead, -the President's vehicle, and I was in the car right behind him, in the -Secret Service followup car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else besides you was in that car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. David Powers was with me. All the rest were agents. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the -trip from Love Field down to the center of Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I thought it was normal--the crowds, going through -the suburbs, were, I would say, from medium to heavy for that trip. -I noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we -passed by which I would say were highly technical. Therefore, the crowd -reflected a middle to an upper class type. They were not unfriendly nor -terribly enthusiastic. They waved. But were reserved, I thought. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you seated in the car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the left-hand side or the right-hand side? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Left-hand side. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who sat on your immediate right? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Powers. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were there in front of you? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in -the front seat. I would not be clear as to how many there were. I would -think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the -car. Some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of -the motorcade, or the activity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of -you? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was that occupied by Secret Service agents? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about immediately to your rear? Was there a rear -seat? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a rear seat. There were agents in that--again -depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running -board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get -on the running board. But as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did -on the way in, they were seated most of the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the President's automobile -made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect, clearly. I would be surprised if it -did not. But I don't have any clear recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it a usual practice for the President to make a stop -on the motorcade? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. If the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he -saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would -sometimes stop. Usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or -indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd in downtown Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the -heaviest I have seen in any American city. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did they compare with the crowds during the 1960 -campaign in Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think probably heavier. But very close. -They were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. I think, as -I have always noticed, to the President and candidate there is a -different aura. But that would be the only difference I would notice -in the crowd. There was a little bit more respect--still the same -enthusiasm. At the last trip in Dallas he stopped the motorcade every -5 minutes--they mobbed the car. There was none of that. But they were -in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. So there was a very -narrow lane to progress through. But they were still very orderly, but -cheerful. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any specific reaction to the Dallas crowd in -terms of what your expectation might have been about Dallas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I was pleased with it. As a politician, I was -particularly pleased with it. I thought we had accomplished what we had -come to Dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average -person living in that city was no different than any other American, -and that they respected and admired their President. And I felt one -of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the -Congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the -same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see -it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and -that the President of the United States was extremely popular in Dallas. - -And that was the basic reason we went. And as we finished through the -business section of town, that was my pleased impression. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the scene when you left the Main Street of -downtown Dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large -building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I did not. I was looking at the crowd. And I frankly -didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the -windows. And as we made that turn, I had been standing--I remember I -sat down. And as far as I was concerned, that was the end--we were then -going to the luncheon--and I didn't notice any building at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza -there, being known as Dealey Plaza? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was not. I afterward have reflected on it many times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from -the crowded downtown Dallas area and headed toward the plaza area. - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I sat down. I remember saying to Dave Powers that -it was a fantastic crowd. He agreed. - -We turned. I remember the overpass. And then the shots occurred--which, -at that time, I did not know were shots. My first impression was it was -a firecracker. And then either somebody said, "He has been hit," or I -noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car, -and I noticed him slump over toward Mrs. Kennedy, and I realized then -that they had been shots. But as fast as that realization occurred, -I saw the third shot hit. It was such a perfect shot--I remember I -blessed myself. I was rather convinced that was a fatal blow. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade -turn? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Turned to the left. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how far behind the Presidential vehicle -was the followup car at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. My guess would be 5 to 8 feet, the normal--when there -are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. It -was moving at a steady pace. The crowds were orderly. So he was at a -normal--I would presume they were just about turning to step up the -speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's -vehicle at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would think we probably were going between 15 -and 20, up until that moment, and I think he probably had just begun to -accelerate probably up to about 25, somewhere in that vicinity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had the Secret Service followup car completed its -left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. My recollection is they had, just about. - -I don't recollect a separation of this nature. It was a slight sloping -turn, as I remember, and I thought we were right together. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that when you just indicated with your hands, you were -showing a pattern of the Secret Service car having made the turn and -straightened up immediately behind the Presidential vehicle proceeding -down the street? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. That is my impression. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. On which side of the car was President Kennedy seated? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He was on the right side. - -Mr. SPECTER. The extreme right? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The extreme right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of -the shooting, if you recall? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He was waving. We had just left the mass of crowds. But -as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there, -and I believe he waved to them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a right-handed wave? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was Governor Connally seated with respect to the -President? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He was directly in front of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised -or was it in its extreme low position at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to -whether or not the seat would be raised? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential -automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Three. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which -elapsed from the first shot to the last shot? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one -right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third -one. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, -if you had one? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came -from the right rear. That would be my best judgment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around -in any specific direction? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think, -watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot -hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from -the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption -immediately. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred -to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again, -looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you -would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which -leads you to that conclusion? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been -withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. -He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping -movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or -second, I would not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think -it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it -is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement -coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the -car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The -President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind -the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the -President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he -was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President -slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see -him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The -motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has -been hit, too." - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the -left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The -President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was -over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the President's left when the Governor---- - -Mr. O'DONNELL. If the President was all the way to the right, the -Governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. If they were -both sitting, they were not. But they did confer back and forth. So the -Governor was visible upon occasion. But when he turned around, it was -really the first time I had been able to see him clearly. - -Mr. SPECTER. At a time, though, when the President was on the extreme -right-hand side, waving, would the Governor then have been visible on -the President's left or on his right? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He would be on his left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise -front of the President, to the right, to the left, or what? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What reaction did you observe, if any, as to Mrs. Kennedy -during the shots? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he slumped on her. She appeared to be immediately -aware that something had happened. She turned toward him. And then the -third shot hit. Obviously, she then knew what happened. She turned, -looking at the backup car. Meanwhile Agent Hill had gotten off the car -and started running up. She was clambering toward the back, and reached -his hand, and he was on the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reactions in the President's car other -than those which you have now testified about? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what point did the motorcade accelerate? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It accelerated, I would think, right about at the time -that Agent Hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a -few seconds after the last shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to -the hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Very rapidly. I would guess between 60 and 70 miles an -hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the -hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would guess 5 to 10 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's car was the followup car in -which you were riding at the time the President's car arrived at the -hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Right behind it, 5 or 6 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We got out of the car. David Powers got out of the car, -went over to the President, and was not visible to me, and was crying, -he laid on him. And then they came and took the President--that was -the first time I really realized that Governor Connally had been badly -hurt, as they also carried Governor Connally out. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy doing at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into -the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there a coat over President Kennedy at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. When they took him out, I was standing maybe 3 or 4 feet -behind him. There was a wall of people between myself. I didn't see -him, nor did I look. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the President out of the car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the Governor out of the car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. By what means were they taken away from the vicinity of -the car? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I think they had stretchers. As I say, I was far enough -back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people -between my vision and what they were doing, I did not see. I could not -be accurate on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Mr. O'Donnell? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I went into the hospital and went right to Mrs. Kennedy. -She was seated right outside the room where they had placed the -President. I would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing -whether there was any hope or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities in the period of time -immediately following that moment? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I stayed with her for a few minutes, and then -no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the -President's condition. As I said, I had seen the shots so clearly, I -had a pretty clear view. The first thing I had done--I asked them to -get a priest, which they did immediately. I went into the room. There -were four or five doctors there. Dr. Burkley I think was there. And I -said, "I think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is -there any hope at all?" I was unable to get a conclusive answer. But I -think I got the answer I needed. - -I don't know how Mrs. Kennedy was finally told. I may have told her -about at that moment. Between the time and the time I knew definitely, -I went to see the Vice President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson was with him and an agent who at the time I -did not know. I believe it is Youngblood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was Vice President Johnson? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He was in a room across the hall. You had to go directly -across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to -the public, and into another room. And I recollect I turned to my -right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. He was -standing on the right, Mrs. Johnson, I believe, was sitting, the agent -was standing at the door. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations, if any, did you have with -then-Vice President Johnson? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I told him it looked very, very serious, and in my -opinion that it was probably fatal. I hadn't been able to get a totally -definite answer, but that I would let him know as soon as it was -definite--but it looked pretty black. - -I then left him. I don't recollect that he even commented. I left him -and went back to Mrs. Kennedy, and within a very few minutes they -confirmed the fact that the President was dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. As soon as I was assured that he was dead, and it was -definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the -President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there -as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first -words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might -be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, -and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might -be to move the Presidential aircraft from Love Field to Carswell, where -no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be -military security. - -We discussed that. It was my opinion that his best movement was to move -directly to Love Field. In fact, the routes would not be available -anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the -hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. -And that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, -where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion about his taking the presidential -plane, AF-1, as opposed to AF-2? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. There was not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson look to you in any way for a -recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in -charge of the presidential party? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It was my impression that he did, that he, with the -President gone--that he felt I was--had to assume a position of -responsibility, both with regard to Mrs. Kennedy and as to himself. He -asked me, as I recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure -and used the words, "I am in your hands now," at some point in the -conversation. - -But I did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the -proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all the conversation you had at that -time with then-Vice President Johnson? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, then? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Next after I left the Vice President, I went back to -Mrs. Kennedy. On the way through the lobby I noted the newspapermen -were clamoring for information. I met Kilduff. He said, "Should we -announce it?" And I said I think that is a decision that can only be -made by the President "You better ask him." So that was the last I saw -of Kilduff. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is Kilduff? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. He is the assistant press secretary. - -Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Kilduff? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Malcolm Kilduff. - -I then went back to Mrs. Kennedy, who was in a very understandably -distraught condition. It was my opinion--I tried to in some way imply -that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that -room. She was covered with blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which room was she in then? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. She was in the same room. She had not moved. She was -sitting near the door. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the room where the President was treated by the -Dallas doctors? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; there is a little corridor. There were swinging -doors. He was inside the swing door. She was not in the presence of the -body. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was her response to you? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Her response to me was she would not leave her husband's -body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The doctor had -continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. And she -had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that -she was going to stay with her husband. - -I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what -anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to -leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we -move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived -at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner. - -So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one -of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get -a casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors -prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport -and go to Washington. - -This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It seems to me it wasn't -more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. I remember -just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there was a little -room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy under some -subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, -because I thought that might be the final blow. And we did, and--but -she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No, I want to watch -it all." And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt -at being compassionate. - -And then they took it in, and put the body in the casket. - -We were then all prepared to go. The agents told me the ambulance was -ready, and they were prepared to move. - -We--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived -who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the -hospital until the necessary papers had been signed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who he was? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect who he was. I think he was--maybe from -the coroner's office. My assumption is he would be. - -But he took this position. We asked--I don't recollect who transmitted -the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us -some idea how long it took to accomplish this. And they went out into -this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded -to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission. - -We waited about 10 or 15 minutes, and Dr. Burkley and General McHugh -were in the room, and Mr. O'Brien at some time. I went out again and -asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to -answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a -week or an hour. - -So I was getting more concerned about Mrs. Kennedy's state all the -time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning. - -Then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a -Judge Brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. It had been my -assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to -depart. Dr. Burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. And -the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. If my recollection -is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just -a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried -out, one of which I interpreted as an autopsy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was it, Mr. O'Donnell, if you recall, who said this -was just another homicide case? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. My feeling is it was Brown, but I really would not -be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the -signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this -as a homicide case, I would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who -might have said it. - -My recollection is it was indicated to us that the President is dead, -the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, -no matter who it is, at this moment. In my own mind, when they said -autopsy, I realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even -days, which was an impossible situation for Mrs. Kennedy. - -I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could -have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, -and that we would bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that -they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no -separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their -autopsy. - -They refused to consider this. - -I in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just -depart. So I went back in the room. I told Mr. O'Brien, and whoever -else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. I notified -the Secret Service and General McHugh, and told them to get ready to -depart. We went in and took the body out. Mrs. Kennedy stood right -behind it, I think totally unaware of the problems that were then -existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were -attempting to depart. - -We pushed the casket out through the hall. This first gentleman that -had come in, who, I presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted -very loudly, "You can't do that, you can't leave here now." Nobody paid -any attention to him. We pushed out through another set of swinging -doors. I remember a Catholic priest was between this and the doorway, -and was praying. It was most disconcerting because we were concerned at -all times that some moment they would say stop, and I hated to think -what might happen to Mrs. Kennedy if she had to go back and go through -this all over again. So we brushed them all aside and came out the same -way we had come in, through the same doors. - -There was an ambulance there. Andy Berger was seated in the driver's -seat. Several agents were there. The body was put into the ambulance, -Mrs. Kennedy got in with it. We climbed into a car alongside of it, and -we took off for the airport. I told the agents if they would signal -ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we -came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else -in. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the gate at the airfield? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall approximately what time you left the -hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I haven't the vaguest idea. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived -at the hospital that you left the hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. But I wouldn't -have any idea. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how long did the trip take you from the hospital -back to the airport? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I am guessing totally at time. I would think it seemed -about 15 minutes. It wasn't a long period of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What occurred then? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The drive was uneventful. We went through the gate. We -arrived at the Air Force--I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be -honest, until I saw the members of the crew. And they unloaded the -casket. I remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, -because of the narrowness of the ramp. It was very difficult for the -Secret Service. It seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was -frightening. - -We got on the plane. And the seats had been taken out on the left side, -so they could lay the casket down. The casket was placed down. I told -General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not President Johnson had been -sworn in at that time? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. At that time I didn't know President Johnson was on the -plane. I did not know whether he had been. Subsequently I realized he -had not been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or -consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the Presidential plane -until Mrs. Kennedy and President Kennedy's body arrived on that plane -before departing for Washington? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. There has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. -Once the President--the Vice President left, I left him, I had not seen -him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified -that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on -the airplane. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, after arriving on the airplane? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. As I say, I told General McHugh to have the plane take -off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at -some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or -that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept -us--the difficulty of that to Mrs. Kennedy was incalculable. I was in -a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to -Washington. As I say, I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take -off. - -There was a delay of 2 or 3 minutes, and nothing happened. So I headed -up for the cockpit myself, and I ran into McHugh in the meantime who -said that President Johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the -pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. That was the first I -knew he was aboard. - -I would like to correct that. I must have known he was aboard, because -I am sure he must have greeted Mrs. Kennedy as she came aboard. And he -and Mrs. Johnson. But I don't have a clear recollection of that in my -own mind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when President Johnson was sworn in? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived back on AF-1, what did you do between -that time and the time the plane was airborne? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson took Mrs. Kennedy into the President's room -on _Air Force 1_. I remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but -she persuaded her to. And---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was reluctant to go in? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. And I went up, and the President and I -carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be -hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for -the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion -between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney -General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if -not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the -aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I -realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on -it. I just listened to him. We sat there. - -I went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody -on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, -under any circumstances. About 10 or 15 minutes later the judge arrived -and the swearing in occurred. - -Mr. SPECTER. How soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if -you recall? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. It was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the -plane taxied out and took off. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the return flight to Washington, where did you sit? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I sat with Mrs. Kennedy almost all the way. We came -back--Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Brien, and I stayed in the back compartment. -And then Mrs. Kennedy and I--I sat down with her, we sat that way all -the way back. The President called me up on one or two occasions and -asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but I felt I -had to stay with Mrs. Kennedy. So I sat with her the whole trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We reminisced. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did she have anything to eat on the trip back? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I think we both had a drink. I tried to get her to -take a good strong drink. I had not much luck. - -Mr. SPECTER. She drank part but not all? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. As I recollect, she just wanted to talk. She talked all -the way. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then after your arrival in Washington, -D.C.? Or did you come back to Andrews Air Force Base? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General -had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to -Bethesda. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The -question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an -autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy -man, she picked Bethesda. - -Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. She did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you -know? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know who made the decision. I just think we all -agreed--we arrived at Bethesda. The Attorney General was there. I think -it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda -Naval Hospital? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. By car. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time did you arrive at Andrews, if you recall? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't remember. It was dark. That is all I do recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how long was the car trip from Andrews to Bethesda? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 45 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after your arrival at Bethesda? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. When we arrived at Bethesda, we went immediately to some -room, reception room, where the family was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay there? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We stayed there, I would think, until 3 or 4 in the -morning. We wanted to stay there until Mrs. Kennedy got back to the -house. - -We drove back to the White House with her. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you leave her at the White House? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 4 or 5 in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. After that, did you go home? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who all was present with the family at Bethesda? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. There was Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Powers--I don't recollect -anybody else outside the family. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who from the family was there? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. As I remember, Jean Kennedy, the Attorney General and -his wife, I think Pat and Eunice. There were some other people. Really -there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and -there was one out in the reception. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was on the balance of the itinerary in Texas after -the planned luncheon at the Trade Mart at Dallas on November 22? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. We were leaving Dallas and going to Austin, and Governor -Connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner -in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the President was going -to depart from there to the Vice President's ranch, and stay with them -through Saturday, and then come back to Washington. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the estimated time of arrival at the LBJ Ranch -about 10 p.m., on the evening of November 22? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be about right. - -Mr. SPECTER. With the plan then being to depart for Washington on the -23d, Saturday? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's attitude, in a general way, about -Presidential protection--that is, President Kennedy's attitude about -Presidential protection, Mr. O'Donnell? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, his general attitude was that the Secret -Service--that there was no protection available to a President of -a democracy such as the United States from a demented person who -was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a -President of the United States, who in a sense wears two hats--he is -the leader of a political party as well as our Chief Executive--and by -the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our -cities, and must expose himself to the American people--that the Secret -Service would not be, other than the protection that they provide -by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a -political trip--would not be able to guarantee 100 percent protection, -considering one has to mingle with crowds of 50,000 or 100,000 people, -and mingle with them at handshaking distance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a -motorcade, for example, with the President? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Not specifically in a motorcade. I don't think the -President's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general -subject. We used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this -would come up. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's view expressed during those -conversations? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. His view was that a demented person who was willing to -sacrifice his own life could take the President's life. And that if -it were to happen, I think his general view was it would happen in a -crowded situation. I don't think it entered his mind that it might -happen in the fashion as of a motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his reaction to that risk? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the -office of the Presidency of the United States inherited. It didn't -disturb him at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was the last conversation that you had with him on -that general topic? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The last conversation I had with him on that general -topic was the morning of the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did the conversation occur? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. The conversation took place in his room, with Mrs. -Kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the Hotel Texas -to depart for Carswell Air Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. That was in Fort Worth? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. That was in Fort Worth. - -Mr. SPECTER. And tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what -he said at that time, please. - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, as near as I can recollect he was commenting to -his wife on the function of the Secret Service, and his interpretation -of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function -was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes -an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the -President of the United States could be injured. But he said that if -anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it -was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building -some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could -do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy's reaction to that philosophy? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I think--I think she had not quite thought of this at -all. She certainly had not thought of it in this way. But I think the -general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in -this democracy, this is inherent. - -Mr. SPECTER. What had her reaction been to the trip to Texas up to that -point? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. She had enjoyed it. She had not been a girl who had -loved campaigning. And I thought at the moment, at that very minute, -that for the first time--the President and I were discussing a -forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would -come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like -to go from now on. - -The President was delighted. We were all delighted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had she been on any political trip before this trip to -Texas? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No; she had not been on a political trip with us for -quite awhile. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was the trip immediately prior to the one to Texas -that she was last on, if you recall? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I don't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the 1960 campaign? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. She was pregnant, as I recollect, during the 1960 -campaign. She had been pregnant just prior to this. So that--and most -of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult -for Mrs. Kennedy to go on. But she had never evidenced to me quite as -much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she -was after this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had she ever been to Texas prior to November 21, 1963? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. After the assassination, has she ever made any comment to -you about that conversation which you had in the Hotel Texas in Fort -Worth on the morning of November 22? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I have never dared bring that conversation up to Mrs. -Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from -the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, -concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the President? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I have no comment. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you have no knowledge? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I have no knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the President's Commission in any way in its job of -investigating all factors relating to the assassination of President -Kennedy? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell. - -Did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the -city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can -make this transcript available to you to read and to sign. - -Would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, -and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court -reporter here? - -Mr. O'DONNELL. I would like to read it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We will make it available to you for reading and -signature, sir. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE F. O'BRIEN - -The testimony of Lawrence F. O'Brien was taken at 11 a.m., on May 26, -1964, at the White House Office, Washington, DC., by Mr. Francis W. H. -Adams, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ADAMS. Raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this -deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do. - -Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from -you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. - -I would like to start way back, if I may, at the point of the -conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. How far back was that -before November 22? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is the contemplation of the trip to Texas -was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip. - -However, I should quickly add that many discussions took place about -potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to -some degree in the political context. The President, No. 1, enjoyed -getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we -had anticipated the President would travel rather extensively when the -opportunity presented itself. But the difficulty in pinning anything -like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of -scheduling any travel by the President, because of the duties of the -office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem. - -Mr. ADAMS. But you, yourself, were concerned and involved in -discussions looking towards this? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; Mr. O'Donnell was responsible for the handling of the -specifics of trips. He would engage in discussions with the President -and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. In his role -as Appointments Secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with -the President invitations of all kinds that came across his desk. - -The Vice President had expressed an interest for some time in a -possible trip to Texas. - -Mr. ADAMS. Had he expressed that interest to you? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically. It became generally -understood in our discussions that he was interested, the President -was interested, Mr. O'Donnell was charged with the responsibility of -maintaining a day to day relationship in this area. - -Mr. ADAMS. At that time, what was your official title? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Special Assistant to the President for Congressional -Relations. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. A trip of this nature, as many trips within the United -States, would involve the inclusion of Members of Congress, appropriate -members of the delegation, and what-have-you. So that would be pretty -much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature. - -Mr. ADAMS. To put it another way, you did not yourself have the -responsibility for the specific planning? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Not at all. - -Mr. ADAMS. And were you involved in making--in the discussions which -led to the final decision about this Texas trip? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. There were some discussions that involved me as to the -specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have -the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the -stops, and matters of that nature. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you happen to know how it came to pass that Mrs. Kennedy -went along on that trip? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. I think Mr. O'Donnell would be the proper -person to direct that to. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you have anything to do with the security or protection -arrangements for the President? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No. - -Mr. ADAMS. Neither on that trip nor at any time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No. - -Mr. ADAMS. This didn't come within your duties at all? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, is it fair to say that the substantial purpose of this -trip was political? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say--in my belief it was not the substantial -purpose. An invitation that had been extended by the Congressman -Albert Thomas' dinner committee, and I assume arrangements that were -appropriate for that time for a dinner in Austin contributed to the -decision on that particular time for this trip. This would be typical -of the situation, as I recall it, where you knew there would be an -occasion when the President would visit Texas. - -He was interested in visiting Texas, as he was other sections of the -country. And this sort of fell into line. It presented to some degree -an opportunity to make the trip at that time. - -He was particularly fond of Congressman Thomas. And he had had a -close-working relationship with him in the Congress. - -I, of course, became very well acquainted with Congressman Thomas, -because of my role representing the White House with the Congress. And -I am sure that was a contributing factor. He was most interested in -attending this dinner to honor him. - -Mr. ADAMS. I suppose it would be fair to say that almost any activity -of the President is in some measure political. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say that is perhaps true. - -But he had been interested, also, in having an opportunity to visit the -Space Center particularly. And he had watched the development of the -space activity in Texas with great interest. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, going back to the time that you left Washington on that -trip, did you leave with the President? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did. - -Mr. ADAMS. From the White House? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did. - -Mr. ADAMS. By helicopter? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. And what was the time--do you recall? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It was approximately forenoon, about 10:45, from the White -House lawn, in the President's helicopter. - -Mr. ADAMS. And where did you go in the helicopter? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. We went to Andrews Field. - -Mr. ADAMS. And did you go onboard _Air Force 1_? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. ADAMS. And you went from there to Austin? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. We went from there to San Antonio. - -Mr. ADAMS. I am sorry. I misspoke myself. San Antonio? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Arriving in San Antonio about when? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I think you would have to refer to the record on that. - -Mr. ADAMS. Some time early afternoon? Some time in the afternoon of -that day? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I remember it was, weatherwise, an uneventful trip. -The weather was fine. There is no reason to suggest we didn't arrive at -pretty much the established time. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then, just briefly, what happened in San Antonio? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, there was a motorcade in San Antonio to the -Aerospace Center for a ceremony. And, as I recall, the ceremony was -relatively brief. The President spoke briefly. And then he inspected -the installation. - -The overall elapsed time I don't recall--perhaps an hour or an hour and -a half. - -And then we proceeded back to the airport for the trip to Fort Worth. - -Mr. ADAMS. What happened in Fort Worth? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. In Fort Worth, as I recall, at the airport there was--from -the airport into the hotel in Fort Worth, it was rather a lengthy trip. -It also involved crowds at various stops. - -The hour--I am sorry I cannot recall the hour of arrival--but it was, -as we say, an offbeat hour. It was rather surprising to have the -interest shown crowdwise as we went in. It delayed the motorcade into -the hotel and outside of the hotel there was a large crowd of people. - -Mr. ADAMS. What was the reaction of that crowd? Was that a friendly -group? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would describe it as friendly; yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened next, after you arrived at the hotel? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and his party checked into the hotel for the -night. I do not recall any other official activity. - -Mr. ADAMS. And what happened next? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, the following morning the President arose early to -attend a breakfast. As I recall, it was a civic breakfast, sponsored by -the local civic group or groups. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did Mrs. Kennedy attend that, also, as you recall? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. She arrived at the breakfast, as I recall, following the -President. The President spoke at the breakfast, and received gifts, -and Mrs. Kennedy received a gift. I recall one of the gifts to the -President was a Stetson. I recall that he did not try it on, but he -appreciated receiving it. - -Following the breakfast, he then spoke to a large crowd in front of -the hotel, in the parking area opposite the hotel. There had been -indications of bad weather. There was some rain, and then the rain -became intermittent. - -Upon completing his speech in the parking area, he returned upstairs to -await the normal departure time. - -When that time arrived, I went downstairs ahead of the President and -Mrs. Kennedy, and the Secret Service were determining whether or not -they would have the top up or down on the car, because there was still -an occasional drop of rain. However, a few minutes elapsed, and it -appeared the weather would stay good for the drive to the airport. So -he left, to the best of my recollection--I feel sure of this--in an -open car to the airport from the hotel. - -Mr. ADAMS. While we are on that subject, just to digress for a moment, -what was his attitude toward riding in open cars? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It was certainly his preference. He had always expressed -a view that in our democracy a President should, whenever possible, be -exposed to the people. And I think, also, he felt the people should be -exposed to him. He always wanted to have the closest possible contact -with people. And in that context his preference certainly at all times -was an open car. - -Mr. ADAMS. And these preferences were expressed to you personally? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Not in the context of this particular situation. - -Mr. ADAMS. No; I mean through the years. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. But certainly we were totally aware of his desires in that -area. And this had, of course, been his position not only in the United -States but in trips outside the country. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did he have--did he ever happen to express any particular -view to you about motorcades, in terms of security? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I cannot recall any discussion I had with him in that -regard. - -Mr. ADAMS. Generally speaking, what was his position as expressed to -you about security? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation in that area. -There may have been. But certainly it was not of sufficient substance -to be of any importance. - -Mr. ADAMS. More specifically, did you ever discuss with him the -possibility of assassination? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you ever discuss it with Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, I took you off the track there. We will come back to -Fort Worth, now, if we may. - -When we left we were discussing his concluding his talk and going out -to the airport in Fort Worth. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; there were, as I recall it, some bands en route. -There was a great deal of excitement, enthusiasm. The weather had -cleared. And it was a thoroughly pleasant trip out to the airport. The -President obviously enjoyed it. - -When we arrived at _Air Force 1_, he commented that that certainly had -been a very interesting and pleasant morning. - -Mr. ADAMS. And you went with him on _Air Force 1_? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. - -Mr. ADAMS. To Dallas--arriving late in the morning? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would estimate our arrival time at Dallas perhaps around -11:45. I know that we anticipated the motorcade through the streets of -Dallas at the noon hour. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you yourself have anything to do with the planning of -that motorcade? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. With the exception of insuring the inclusion in the -motorcade of the Members of Congress and Senator Yarborough, that they -be properly handled so that they would be included in open cars in the -motorcade. - -Mr. ADAMS. And it was part of your responsibility to see that--what -cars they got into and all those arrangements? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say specifically that. They would have their -car assignments. But for the most part, it was, if anything went wrong -in the arrangements at some point, I would then be able to have a staff -man correct it. So I would keep a close eye on the congressional people -traveling with the President on a trip of that nature to be sure that -they were well taken care of. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you know when the information about the precise route was -released to the press? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was there any thought--I withdraw that one, and ask you -this: Do you know how it came about that Dallas was chosen as one of -the cities to visit? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically, except that the size of the -city, the concentration of population, would make it an obvious stop in -Texas, if you were going to be in the State for 2 or 2-1/2 days. It is -rather an obvious decision, that the Dallas area would be one of the -stops. - -Mr. ADAMS. As far as you know, there was never any consideration given -to omitting Dallas? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not recall any. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, we are back now at Love Field. Would you tell us what -happened there, as far as you observed it? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The President moved over to the fence, where a large -crowd had gathered and shook the hands of several in the crowd, as -the motorcade was awaiting his departure. All those in the motorcade -proceeded to get into their cars. There was the usual amount of minor -confusion--people hustling around to locate their car number, and I -stood watching the President engaged in this activity, until he had -gotten into his car, and a quick observation indicated to me that all -those traveling with us had gotten into their cars. - -I came very close, however, to being left at Love Field, because I -delayed a little longer than I normally would, observing the scene, -and, consequently, I had to make a little dash, myself, to hop into a -car, to insure that I would travel into town. - -Mr. ADAMS. When the President was greeting people along the fence -there, was he accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my recollection. - -Mr. ADAMS. And do you recall at that time what the Vice President and -Mrs. Johnson were doing? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. They were engaged in the same activity, as I recall it. - -Mr. ADAMS. I think you said this was a large crowd. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; it appeared to be a large crowd. The difficulty in -judging a crowd from the ground at an airport is obvious. But as we -came down the steps of the plane, looking out over the crowd, I had the -impression that it was a large crowd for an airport stop, considering -the fact the President was about to travel through the heart of the -city. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was it a friendly crowd? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It appeared to be friendly. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, getting to the motorcade, what was its organization, as -you recall it, in terms of what cars at what places? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall it, following the usual police grouping in -the front and sides, the President's car, Secret Service car, the -Vice President's car, additional Secret Service car, wire service -cars--I would think there probably were two--the VIP cars followed, -and then following those cars, which was rather a long line of them, -as I recall, were, I believe, one or two buses containing the press, -traveling press. - -Mr. ADAMS. When you refer to the VIP cars, those would include the -Congressmen and the other gentlemen you referred to before? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. Senator Yarborough was in the car with -the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson. The members of the congressional -delegation traveling with us at that point were then in open cars--I -would think there were perhaps four open cars to accommodate them. - -Mr. ADAMS. Which one were you in? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I was in one of those open cars--specifically, I don't -remember the order of the car, but I remember the passengers I joined. -And as I pointed out, this was rather a quick hop into the car that I -made at that point. Congressman Mahon was in the front seat with the -driver. Congressman Rogers of Texas, now Judge Homer Thornberry of -Texas, and me in the back seat. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you know who the driver was? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, would you say that between you and the Vice President's -followup car, there was more than one open car? As I get it--to put it -another way to perhaps refresh your recollection--there was the Vice -President's car, then there was a followup car behind that, and then -came, as you have recalled, the open cars, in which you were seated in -one of them. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, were you in the one directly behind the Vice -President's followup car, or farther back? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not believe I was in the first VIP car, because, -as I stated when I looked around and the motorcade started to move -slightly, I moved toward a car handy to me. I would think that I was in -the second or conceivably third open car, because, at that time, we had -approximately 10 or 12 members of the Texas congressional delegation, -and obviously we, therefore, had perhaps four open cars. I don't recall -that I was in the first one--it was the second or third. I was not in -the last one, either. - -Mr. ADAMS. Were you assigned to a particular car, or would you just -have taken any that would happen to be available? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I am sure I was assigned to a particular car. As a rule, I -would be assigned to the first VIP car--VIP meaning as a rule, again, -a congressional delegation. And in this instance, I don't recall the -actual car assignment. And it was not unusual for me to not adhere -strictly to the assignment. - -Mr. ADAMS. And as the motorcade left Love Field--let me withdraw that -and put it this way: You were seated in the back? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right back. - -Mr. ADAMS. On the right-hand side? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. - -Mr. ADAMS. From where you were seated in that car, as you proceeded -toward the city, could you see the President in his car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Only occasionally. There were occasions when you could -not see him. Other times, depending on the turns in the road, and -what-have-you, you would get a view of him. And there were times when -he was upright in the car, and you could spot him. - -But, generally speaking, I would say that I was concentrating on crowd -attitude and size for the most part, going in toward the city. - -Mr. ADAMS. From what you could see of the President's car, where was he -seated? - -On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. As I looked toward the car, he was seated on the right, -with Governor Connally seated directly in front of him. - -Mr. ADAMS. That is right. And Mrs. Connally---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Connally on the jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. ADAMS. As the motorcade proceeded, could you at all times see the -Vice President's car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; similarly, the photographers and others would often -times block the view. The view of the President's car and the Vice -President's car from where I was seated during the motorcade into -and through the downtown Dallas was not a clear view. There was an -obstructed view for the most part. - -Mr. ADAMS. As you recall it, what were the seating arrangements in the -Vice President's car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I know that Senator Yarborough, Mrs. Johnson, and the Vice -President were seated in the rear of the car, and my recollection is -that again the Vice President was on the right, Mrs. Johnson in the -middle, Senator Yarborough on the left. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, as you went on in town, tell me about the crowds, if -you would. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The crowds were large, unusually large for an extremely -long--mileagewise--long trip into the city. I was impressed with the -size of the crowd. The comment in our car, however, was that the crowd -was rather reserved. As a matter of fact, Congressman Rogers, who, as I -told you, was on the left rear, commented and called out from time to -time in a jocular vein, "Hello", "Howdy", and suggested to them that -they ought to smile and look perky, which we felt they were not doing -during the course of the trip from the airport to the outskirts of the -business area. - -Mr. ADAMS. Up to that point, I suppose it was chiefly residential areas -that you passed through? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed to be residential, and a great deal of small -industry. The crowd looked to me to be middle to upper class business -type to a great extent. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you know the city of Dallas yourself? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Had you been there before? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I had not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then as you got into the city, what was the nature of the -crowds? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. There was a tremendous change in crowd attitude, which, -again, we commented on in the car. It seemed as though it occurred -suddenly, but yet nevertheless in retrospect it did grow as you -approached the business center. Then you found yourself going down a -road, on both sides high buildings, confetti, the crowds out in the -street, allowing just a narrow lane for the motorcade. And I would have -to describe that crowd as enthusiastic. In fact, perhaps I should say -wildly enthusiastic. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any special incidents of any kind on the way -into town? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. On rare occasion you saw a Goldwater sign, or some sign of -that nature, conservative sign, I guess, but not many. It was not an -unusual situation, as I recall. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember the motorcade stopping at anytime? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall the motorcade stopping, and it seems to me it -was for the purpose of the President greeting some school children. -However, I am not clear in my mind. I do recall a slowdown or an actual -stopping on at least one occasion, and perhaps more than one occasion, -between the airport and downtown Dallas. And I should add that those in -the car in which I rode, to a man, commented on the great enthusiasm of -the crowds in downtown area. I think they were making reference to it -particularly because there was somehow or other--we all concluded this -was a comparison that could be made with the crowds we had just gone by. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you recall the motorcade passing down Main Street in -Dallas? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. ADAMS. And then do you recall it turning off Main Street? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. ADAMS. And then around onto Elm Street? You might not remember the -names. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall the name of the street. But I recall -distinctly a right turn. - -Mr. ADAMS. And then another swerving turn? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. - -Mr. ADAMS. At that point, were there a lot of buildings or only a few? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed that when we made the turn off the Main Street, -that the crowds petered out. It was a very normal termination of a -parade route. And we just felt that while there were people on the -streets, it was not the massive crowd that we had just passed over -several blocks. And I believe that my reaction was this is about the -end of the parade route, and we were about to just sort of settle back. -There were people still on the street, but you could see that this -route was--this parade route was about to terminate. - -Mr. ADAMS. And as you came around those turns, did you hear any shots -fired? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. ADAMS. Would you tell me as best you can whether at that time you -could see the President's car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I could not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was that because your car had not turned the corner yet? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall, our car was about to make that turn, and it -would seem to me, therefore, the President's car was in the process of -making the left turn. I would think that approximately the time he was -swinging on this curving left, we were swinging out of Main Street -right. We heard the shots very clearly. - -Mr. ADAMS. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Three. - -Mr. ADAMS. Can you estimate for me the time interval between the first -and the last shot? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe I can estimate the timing, but I can tell -you about an exchange that took place in the car, from the first shot -through the third shot. - -Mr. ADAMS. Please do. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The first shot was fired. I just didn't conclude it was -rifle fire. I was completely unsure. And I must have almost immediately -said to the driver--I directed the question to him, for some unknown -reason--"What was that?" The driver replied, "I do not know. They must -be giving him a 21-gun salute." By the time the driver had concluded -that sentence, we did not hear explosion No. 4. And it was apparent to -us that No. 1 was not a 21-gun salute. I believe everyone in the car -concluded it wasn't, in any event, because it just was not that kind of -a sound. And we just had no idea of what had occurred at that moment. - -Mr. ADAMS. Could you tell me your best recollection as to where the -sounds appeared to come from? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I didn't have any idea specifically on the location of the -sounds, and I do not recall that anyone in the car did. - -Mr. ADAMS. Is it your recollection that these sounds were evenly spaced? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my impression. As I say, I apparently immediately -engaged the driver in conversation after the first shot which forces -me to conclude that there had to be a time between the first and -second and third shots--because I simply--describing the exchange of -my question and his answer, and his answer, I must say, probably was -completed after the third shot. But he had started his answer to the -question at about or just before the third shot. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, one way of getting at the time interval of all -three shots, I suppose, would be your recollection that it all was -encompassed in the time it took you to ask the question and the driver -to answer. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. At least in the time that it took me to ask the question -and the driver to initiate the answer, but perhaps not complete it. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then would it be fair to say it was a very small number of -seconds? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It certainly would be. And I think the driver completed -his answer--for 1 or 2 seconds all of us in the car were awaiting the -fourth explosion, if I can term it that, which did not occur, and there -was dead silence in the car. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then do you remember anything that anyone said immediately -following the dead silence? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not recall. I recall that just prior to this, -which indicates to me that perhaps we had turned that corner before -the shots, Judge Thornberry pointed to a building and said that that -was where his offices had been located at one time, either in military -service or in government service, and pointing over in the direction of -the building. We were turning the corner--and that took place before -the shots. - -Mr. ADAMS. You don't happen to know the name of that building? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. But he mentioned it in the term that he -had been stationed in that building. Now, it could have been either a -military activity or in government agency activity. - -Mr. ADAMS. How did the knowledge come to you that the President had -been shot? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. We noted, as the cars continued to move after the third -shot, and there was a great deal of movement on both sides in front of -us, scurrying in various directions. - -Mr. ADAMS. Scurrying by whom? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. People on the street--the crowds had thinned out. There -were people along the road. - -Mr. ADAMS. We didn't specifically cover this, but was there a -motorcycle escort? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. For the motorcade? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; around the President's car. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did that motorcycle escort extend as far back as your car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; it did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. I interrupted you there. You were telling me how this -knowledge came to you, that something serious had happened. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade -started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from -great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the -specific nature of the occurrence. And we just were, I think you would -have to describe, very confused. I remember particularly a Negro man -with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn. - -Mr. ADAMS. On which side of the car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right. And that was typical of all kinds of -movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just -didn't know. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any radio communication in your car with the -front cars? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; we did not. At that point, a photographer--we started -to move a little more rapidly. Our driver intended to follow the -motorcade and move out. The motorcade moved out with great speed in -front of us. And a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was -a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his -fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. We did not -get anything coherent from him. I do not think we really attempted to, -because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and -keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed. - -The driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or -three minutes. He had no idea where the motorcade was headed. And they, -therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the -trade mart, which was to be the location of the President's stop and -speech following the parade route. - -We pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called -out, He has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. And at that -point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the -nearest hospital. And he started to move out with great speed toward -this hospital. And as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that -was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle -police, and what-have-you. As we arrived at the hospital, there was a -great deal of commotion at the front. - -Mr. ADAMS. I think you misspoke yourself. You said you pulled up in -front of the motorcade. I think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up -in front of the trade mart. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Trade mart--I am sorry. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the -President or Governor Connally at the moment that they were shot? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. How long would you think it took you to go from the point -where you heard the shots to the hospital? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say overall it could approach 15 minutes. - -Mr. ADAMS. And what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say 60 to 70 miles an hour. - -Mr. ADAMS. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. When I arrived at the hospital, two of the Congressmen -that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead -of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled -up, and asked me to follow them immediately. There was a large crowd--I -will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to -the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police. - -Congressman Thomas and Congressman Brooks went up to the officers at -the door and said, "This is a Special Assistant to the President. -Let him in." So he immediately opened the doors, and I went through, -with the two Congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the -corridor the direction in which to go. There was a little confusion -in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong -direction, and were again rerouted. And in a matter, however, of a -couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, I arrived behind -these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--I saw to my right -sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor -sitting in a similar chair--to my right Mrs. Kennedy, to my left Mrs. -Connally. - -Mr. ADAMS. You didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? You -went through---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Apparently not. I am not sure of the entrance. But I just -don't know. I assume that was not the emergency entrance. - -Mr. ADAMS. And you said that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were -sitting there more or less together? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No. They were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed -outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked -through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the -left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. And -outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down -perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right -and left, the President had been placed in the emergency room to the -right and Governor Connally in the emergency room to the left. Both -doors were closed at that moment. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was there anyone with Mrs. Kennedy at the time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Powers and Mr. O'Donnell were standing there. - -Mr. ADAMS. Were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two -Congressmen you mentioned before? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The two Congressmen did not go through the doors with me. -They left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was -determined that I was being taken to the right location. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, at that point, you knew that--from the Congressmen and -from others, that the President had been shot? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then did you go up to Mrs. Kennedy or Mrs. Connally, or what -did you do then? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I immediately engaged Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers in -conversation. - -Mr. ADAMS. Can you recall that conversation? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Neither Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell had a clear idea of -the situation at the moment, but Mr. O'Donnell certainly gave me a -positive indication that there was little or no chance. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy at that -point? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not have any conversation other than attempting -to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief -moments of that nature. But conversation was extremely limited. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you know where the Vice President was at that time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not see the Vice President in the hospital. I was -given to understand by Mr. O'Donnell he was down the corridor--again, -if I did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he -was in a room across the hall. - -Mr. ADAMS. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Until the President was taken from the hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. You stayed there with Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. - -Mr. ADAMS. During that whole time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. During that period General McHugh at one -point, Malcolm Kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in -and out, Mrs. Lincoln, Dr. Burkley came in and out from time to time. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was Dr. Burkley also in the emergency room? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. As we stood there, they moved equipment, heavy emergency -equipment into the emergency room, and there was a great deal of what -you would just envision--scurrying around of nurses and doctors, a -great deal of activity. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did you go into the emergency room yourself? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not. - -Mr. ADAMS. Taking it from the point that you arrived there in the -corridor where Mrs. Kennedy was seated, how long a time passed before -it came to your knowledge that the President was dead? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall the length of time I had with specific -knowledge. My impression is I had perhaps at the outset in the first -seconds or minutes, I had some doubt this had occurred. - -I think perhaps what happened is that it penetrated, without a specific -statement by anyone. I just had to conclude this had occurred, and it -became obvious. At that point, however, Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and -I were not at all sure that this had penetrated with Mrs. Kennedy for a -few minutes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember anything about a priest? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. I recall that Mr. O'Donnell told me that he -had asked the staff, or it might have been a Secret Service man, or -hospital staff person--in any event--someone to immediately secure -a priest. There was no priest on the premises. And he had assumed -perhaps a priest was en route, because by that time the knowledge that -something serious had occurred certainly had become known through -police radio and what-have-you. - -But the priest arrived in a relatively short time. I don't know the -specific time. But it didn't seem to be an awful long time. And, as a -matter of fact, my recollection is that a second priest arrived, and -then a third priest. - -Mr. ADAMS. And you don't know who they were? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not. - -Mr. ADAMS. During this interval, between the time that you arrived -where Mrs. Kennedy was seated and the time it was officially determined -that the President was dead, do you recall any conversation with Mrs. -Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No conversation other than, "Is there anything we can do -for you?" Or a conversation of that nature in very brief and occasional -sentences--no conversation as such. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. Powers stay with you all that time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; he did. - -Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Donnell? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did there come a time when Mr. O'Donnell left? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell, at one point we discussed the -situation--and Mr. O'Donnell at one point determined that he should -cross the corridor and advise the Vice President of what the situation -appeared to be at that moment. And as I recall, it was the conclusion -that this was an extremely serious matter, we hadn't any formal advice -or official advice on the situation, but the seriousness of it should -be imparted to the Vice President. - -He left briefly for that purpose, I assume, and returned to the -position where we had been standing. - -Mr. ADAMS. How did it come officially to your notice that the President -was dead? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Again, I just don't know. It was a matter of standing for -what seemed to be an interminable period of time--I have no idea the -specific time--and, again, I cannot recall a specific instance when an -announcement was made. It was more just finally having what gradually -became obvious penetrate with you, it was, that it was an actuality. - -Mr. ADAMS. How was the fact conveyed to Mrs. Kennedy? Do you remember -that? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't remember a specific conversation by anyone with -her. People came to her, hospital staff people, doctors from time to -time that would lean down and whisper to her. I don't know whether at -one of those occasions this was specifically stated. I think, again, -perhaps it was just gradually we all came to a conclusion. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, at any rate, after the fact was--had, as you well put -it, had penetrated, what happened next, as far as you know? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Our concern, in our discussions--Mr. O'Donnell and I -discussed what should be done. Our major concern was that obviously you -just could not leave Mrs. Kennedy sitting in this chair, drenched in -blood. Something certainly had to take place. - -In that context, we felt steps should be taken to remove the President -from the hospital. And someone, either Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell, had -suggested at one point during the several minutes, that Mrs. Kennedy -might want to retire to a room a couple of doors down the corridor. Our -attempt to bring this about was not successful, because she started to -walk and then turned around and said, "I want to stay with him." And -she went back to the chair. - -Mr. O'Donnell, at a point in these proceedings, issued the directions -to the Secret Service to secure a coffin. As I recall it, the coffin -arrived in a very reasonable time. Whoever handled those arrangements -certainly did it--carried out his responsibility well, because--again, -time had a way of going on, and it is hard to determine a matter of -minutes. But the coffin arrived, in any event, and was wheeled into the -room. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell leave at this point--did he leave Mrs. -Kennedy and go somewhere else, do you recall? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. He, as I recall, again, went to the room in which the Vice -President was waiting, to tell him specifically that the President had -died, and to discuss with him the steps to move the Vice President out -of the hospital and to the airport and on to Washington. - -Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell come back and tell you about that -discussion? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. He came back and told me that he had advised the -President, and he had had a discussion with the President. And I don't -remember any of the details of it. - -Mr. ADAMS. That covered two basic points--that President Kennedy's body -was to be removed from the hospital forthwith, and the other was that -the Vice President was to return to Washington? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. - -Mr. ADAMS. What were the reasons that led to the decision, if you know, -that the Vice President would return to Washington? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe it was in the context of the death of the -President, what steps, if any, were necessary for the Vice President -to assume the responsibility of the office forthwith, and our great -concern about the situation in which Mrs. Kennedy was being left in -this corridor, without any plan for taking care of her. So I think the -basic idea was to leave the hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was there any discussion as to whether there might or might -not be some general conspiracy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Not with me. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I must add, however, that during the course of this, -that none of us had any knowledge of actually what had occurred. And -I am sure that some of us gave thought to what might still occur. We -just had no idea. And we felt that certainly the first step was the -protection of the new President and the taking care of Mrs. Kennedy as -best we could. We tried to give some clarity of thoughts to the steps -that were necessary. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, you discussed these problems with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. -Powers, I suppose. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. And anyone else? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. - -Mr. ADAMS. I will take you back to the point where the coffin arrived. -What happened then? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The coffin was wheeled into the emergency room. At that -point, a man arrived on the scene who, I assume, was the coroner, or -someone representing the coroner's office. I do not know his name. And -he stated that the President could not be taken from the hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was this in Mrs. Kennedy's presence? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall this conversation took place just outside -those swinging doors with the glass panels. And I would--I believe, -therefore, that she did not hear this conversation. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency -room, what did Mrs. Kennedy do? Did she enter at that time, or at any -time, so far as you recall? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is that she did enter the room, but I -don't recall it was at that time, and I am not sure what specific time. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, going back to this official who said the body could -not be removed--you were present at that time with Mr. O'Donnell and -Mr. Powers? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. And what happened with respect to that discussion? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Dr. Burkley, the President's physician, entered -into that discussion. And as I recall he and this official went into a -little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion -that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. And -the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. Burkley--Dr. -Burkley was quite exercised. It was apparent that this fellow was not -going to--he was going to be adamant in his position. And very soon -another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a -judge. - -Mr. ADAMS. Does the name Brown refresh your recollection? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't know as I heard his name. But he was then -described as the judge--a judge, and the indication was that he, -therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other -official that had been carrying on this discussion with Dr. Burkley. - -He was equally adamant. The reference was made, either specifically by -him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated -as just another homicide, and that no other--no special considerations -could be given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern -about Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and -that we could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for -hours or even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the -President should be taken from the hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and Dr. -Burkley? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The casket was brought out from the emergency room, -wheeled out through these two folding doors. And the members of the -Secret Service gathered around it. They had made a determination on -their own as to the exit. An ambulance was waiting. Preparations had -been made by the Secret Service to accomplish this. And we all--Mr. -O'Donnell, Mr. Powers and I, General McHugh, and two or three members -of the Secret Service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor. - -My recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or -all officials. My recollection is also that we paid little heed to it. - -Mr. ADAMS. These were vigorous objections, I gather. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say they were. And the only very minor problem -that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in -point of arrival was still present. The other two priests had departed -after expressing their condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. But this priest was -standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize -some prayers at that point. And I suggested to him that he step aside. -Our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective -block put in our way. - -Mr. ADAMS. And who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy at that time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one -time Mr. O'Donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps Mr. -Powers--but among us we escorted her along. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then when you finally got the casket out through this -corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. In a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. The -driver in the car--Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance. And Mr. -O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, and I went into the back seat of this car. - -Mr. ADAMS. Was this a police car? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It was an official car of some sort. - -Mr. ADAMS. At that time do you know whether or not the Vice President -had left the hospital? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know. - -Mr. ADAMS. Had he arrived at Love Field by the time you got out there? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. - -Mr. ADAMS. And what happened when you arrived at Love Field? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, again the Secret Service and those of us in the -official party that had arrived at the field--I guess specifically -again the three of us--helped to move the coffin up the steps of the -plane. It was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the -normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to -accomplish this without some difficulty. But it was brought onto the -plane. - -At that point I noticed that seats to the left of the door had been -removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We -placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and -Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment -from that area of the plane. - -Mrs. Kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at -a table to the left in the rear compartment, and Mrs. Johnson and the -President went over to her. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you know how it came to pass that the President was sworn -in at that time? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and Mrs. Johnson, after a brief discussion -with Mrs. Kennedy, went into the Presidential compartment--I guess -that is the best way to describe that section of the plane--this would -be where the President's chair and desk are located. He asked Mr. -O'Donnell to join him. - -During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we -were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple -of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President -asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was -awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured -the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a -preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. And -that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes. - -So while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the President, Mr. -O'Donnell and I, joined by Mrs. Johnson, after a couple of minutes, -sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact -that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing -in ceremony. And during that period we briefly discussed the first -step of the President to insure continuity, and either just before the -swearing-in or immediately following it, the President discussed with -Mr. O'Donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to -shoulder with him. - -The judge arrived---- - -Mr. ADAMS. During that interval, who was staying with Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom -adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment. - -The judge arrived in minutes. And it was suggested that those in the--I -guess the best way to describe it--the front of the plane, those who -could move into the compartment, including those representing the -press, a single photographer was brought aboard. The wording of the -oath was available. The judge took her position. The President said -that he certainly wanted Mrs. Kennedy with him at this moment. I went -to the bedroom. The door to the adjoining restroom was closed. I -went out and asked Mrs. Lincoln if she would see if Mrs. Kennedy was -available. She went in and came out with Mrs. Kennedy, and she took her -place to the President's left, Mrs. Johnson to the President's right, -the others grouped around. I stood behind the judge, and just as the -judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small -Bible in a white box. I took the Bible from the box, interrupted the -judge just momentarily, and handed her the Bible. She completed the -ceremony. - -Then everyone immediately settled down. The judge departed from the -plane, the photographer from the plane. Everyone settled down, and we -took off without further delay. - -Mr. ADAMS. As a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened -to the Bible? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know. - -Mr. ADAMS. The plane then departed immediately? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. - -Mr. ADAMS. And---- - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell and I went to the rear compartment where we -joined Mr. Powers and General McHugh. Mrs. Kennedy was seated in one -of the two chairs. Mr. O'Donnell took the other chair. The three of us -stood. The plane took off. And we remained with Mrs. Kennedy for the -duration of the trip to Washington. - -We consulted, or were consulted by General Clifton and Mr. Moyers -on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the -President's activity upon arrival here in Washington. One suggestion -was made that we--that they call in for a meeting of the White -House staff. But that was discarded as impractical at this point. -Arrangements were made, however, which Mr. Moyers checked with me, on -the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the President, -and arrangements were put in effect for the President to meet the Under -Secretary of State in the absence of the Secretary and other officials -here. - -Mr. ADAMS. How did it come about that the remains of President Kennedy -were taken to the naval hospital? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. It was my understanding that the President would be taken -to a hospital. I don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically -other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of -the military hospitals in Washington. And obviously there were two to -select from, and the President being an ex-Navy man, it seemed just -sort of normal to suggest Bethesda. - -Mr. ADAMS. And you remained with Mrs. Kennedy during the entire trip? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. ADAMS. What was her condition? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. She conversed a great deal with us. The one impression -left with me from the entire trip and conversations with Mrs. Kennedy -during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern -for us, really--her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him -at the beginning and we were with him at the end. We were all bereft. -And I am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some -comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was -difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way -of being helpful. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as -you made the trip up? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. - -Mr. ADAMS. What happened when you arrived? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. A lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. The -honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back -compartment. We concluded that we would take the body off the plane. - -Mr. ADAMS. You say "we." You mean Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and -yourself? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. General McHugh. And so we proceeded to do just that. We -took the--lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and -placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there. - -We--the three of us--four of us--McHugh was with us--got into a car. -The Attorney General and Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance, if that -is what it was. And we followed in a car directly behind that, went out -to Bethesda Naval Hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. What did you do when you arrived there? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. We went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, -where we joined members of the President's family. General McHugh went -elsewhere. And we then spent several hours in these rooms on, I don't -know what floor of the hospital. - -Mr. ADAMS. When you referred to the President's family, what particular -members were there? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Mrs. Stephen Smith was there. - -Mr. ADAMS. Mrs. Attorney General Kennedy? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. I don't recall all the members of the family. The -Attorney General--and there were--there was an occasional person that -came and went during the night But that was basically the group. - -We had coffee and received reports from time to time from General -McHugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from -Bethesda to the White House. And the hours went on and on, until the -early hours of the morning--perhaps 4 a.m. - -Mr. ADAMS. And then what did you do? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. We came to the White House, at which point several members -of the White House staff, Mr. Shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the -President. He was placed in the East Room. A brief prayer was given, -and that terminated the evening. - -Mr. ADAMS. I would like to ask you to go back again and give me -your recollections of the President's views about the nature of the -protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was -towards security. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation I had with the -President in this area. All I can say is that the President at all -times was most interested in close contact with his fellow Americans, -and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him -from the people, he was quick to move towards people. He certainly -moved quite freely. But I do not recall ever having a conversation or -being present during the course of a conversation when the specific -protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to -them. - -Mr. ADAMS. Other than what you have said here, do you have any -knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it -might be? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. None whatsoever. - -Mr. ADAMS. Do you have any other thing I have not covered that you -would like to put in this record? - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. I believe that to the best of my -recollection I have tried to carefully review all aspects of the -matter, from departure from the lawn of the White House to arrival back -at the White House. And I cannot call anything to mind now that I might -have overlooked. - -Mr. ADAMS. Now, finally, it is a custom in this Commission to make -transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before -signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. That is entirely -up to you. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I would like to have the transcript. - -Mr. ADAMS. Then we will send it along in the next few days, and when -you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back -to the Commission we would appreciate it. - -Mr. O'BRIEN. I certainly will. - -Mr. ADAMS. That closes this deposition. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID F. POWERS - -The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my -knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963. - -I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, -on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, -Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of -the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President -asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was -there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came -to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came -to see Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. -Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that -seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was -very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and -on motorcades. - -The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at -approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high -spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to -the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that -they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too -much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the -first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice -President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), -along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President -and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was -standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret -Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's -car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an -open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents -in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running -boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth -O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car. - -The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my -opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. -Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were -observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate -the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the -extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as -much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was -seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the -opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to -the crowds on each side. - -As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of -occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through -the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off -of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm -Street. - -At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an -hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about -our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted -that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due -at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 -and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the -Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded -to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President -moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand -side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor -Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which -took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound -of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time -between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first -impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I -also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the -front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from -my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might -have ridden into an ambush. - -At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated -sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy -climbed onto the back of the car. Perhaps she may have been looking for -help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think -Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of -the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would -have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in -the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade. - -We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon -arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President -Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent -Kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. The three of us and Special -Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. -Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the -emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a -chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell -went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital. - -I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from -the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear -compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. -On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her -clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air -Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda -Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body -in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the -other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early -hours of the morning on November 23, 1963. - -Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C. - - (S) David F. Powers, - DAVID F. POWERS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF CLIFTON C. CARTER - -The following affidavit was executed by Clifton C. Carter on May 20, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Clifton C. Carter, make the following affidavit concerning my -knowledge of the events of November 22, 1963. - -Vice President Johnson and I had been in Texas during the week -preceding November 22nd, and we had met the party of President Kennedy -in San Antonio, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963. - -I was on the Vice President's plane (AF-2) when it landed at Dallas -Love Field on November 22 at about 11:30 a.m. Vice President and Mrs. -Johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted -President and Mrs. Kennedy, who arrived in the President's plane -(AF-1). President and Mrs. Kennedy then shook hands with people in the -crowd along an iron fence. While the Presidential party greeted the -crowd, I went to the automobile where I was to ride in the motorcade. -It was a Secret Service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the Vice -President. Our car was right behind the Vice President's automobile, -which was immediately to the rear of the Presidential Secret Service -follow-up car, which drove right behind the President's automobile. - -The automobile in which I rode was driven by a Dallas policeman. I sat -in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my -lap. Special Agent Jerry D. Kivett sat on my right and Special Agent -Len Johns and someone else were in the rear seat. This was an unmarked -Dallas police car. - -Nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from Love Field to the -downtown Dallas area. The crowds were very large and very friendly, -except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about -President Kennedy. I would estimate that the crowds were twice as -big as they were in September of 1960 when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in -Dallas. The motorcade slowed down at times, but I do not believe that -it stopped. - -The motorcade proceeded west on Main Street, made a right-hand turn -onto Houston and then swung around to the left on Elm, proceeding -slowly at about 5 to 10 miles per hour. At approximately 12:30 p.m., -our car had just made the left-hand turn off Houston onto Elm Street -and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building -when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent -Youngblood, who was seated on the right-hand side of the front seat -of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice -President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and -covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson -and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the -Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came -immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots. - -I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of -approximately 5 to 6 seconds from the first to the last shot, -and the three shots were evenly spaced. The motorcade promptly -accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to 75 to 80 miles an -hour to Parkland Memorial Hospital. The President's automobile, the -President's follow-up car, the Vice President's automobile, and the -Vice President's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at -Parkland. Attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried -President Kennedy and Governor Connally into the hospital. At one -point I briefly helped remove Governor Connally from the car onto the -stretcher. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally had been taken -into the hospital, Vice President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Special Agent -Youngblood and I entered the emergency area and were taken to a small -room where we waited. I went out on a couple of occasions to secure -coffee. Congressmen Henry Gonzalez, Jack Brooks, Homer Thornberry and -Albert Thomas came into the room where Vice President Johnson waited. -About 1 o'clock Mrs. Johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to -visit with Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. - -At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emory Roberts brought the news that -President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present -were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Len -Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson -to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the -Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate -Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy. - -Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry -(O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning -promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice -President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington -immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some -of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to -Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, -and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By -the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President -and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had -already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the -President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President -Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the -advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have -Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the -swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for -the Washington area. - -The original conversations concerning President Kennedy's trip to -Texas occurred on June 5, 1963 at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. -President Kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy -and Vice President Johnson had spoken at Annapolis. The President -and Vice President met with Governor Connally at the Cortez Hotel to -discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the President to -Texas. Fred Korth and I were present when the three men assembled, -but Fred Korth and I left during their discussion of the President's -proposed trip. The first tentative date was to have the trip coincide -with Vice-President Johnson's birthday on August 27th, but that was -rejected because it was too close to Labor Day. President Kennedy's -other commitments prevented him from coming to Texas any sooner than -November 21st, which was the date finally set. - -Signed this 20th day of May 1964. - - (S) Clifton C. Carter, - CLIFTON C. CARTER. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EARLE CABELL - -The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney -general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the -city of Dallas. - -Mr. CABELL. Former mayor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that right? - -Mr. CABELL. I resigned in February. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the -advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, -1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of -procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with -that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. - -Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I -understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr. -J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that -correct? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CABELL. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. CABELL. My name is Earle Cabell. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence? - -Mr. CABELL. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor -of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago? - -Mr. CABELL. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a -2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned -that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of -Representatives of the United States. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? -I simply want to get some background for the record. - -Mr. CABELL. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy -products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas. - -Mr. HUBERT. You still have that business? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I am not connected with that business officially any -longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, -which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in -an advisory capacity. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, -but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment -upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George -Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification -as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked -"Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable -Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these -succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand -lower corner. - -Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you -have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right? - -Mr. CABELL. I have read it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a -report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate -and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you? - -Mr. CABELL. It is entirely so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any corrections or additions? - -Mr. CABELL. I find no corrections or additions to make to that -statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just -what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of -Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to -the police department. - -Mr. CABELL. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council -is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status -of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the -people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the -spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative -responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and -policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other -city officials or department heads. - -The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those -department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the -appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is -not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct -administrative action through or over any of the department heads -appointed by and responsible to the city manager. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many members compose the council, sir? - -Mr. CABELL. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor. - -Mr. HUBERT. They are elected? - -Mr. CABELL. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large. -That is, they are all voted upon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by -the council or by the mayor? - -Mr. CABELL. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by -council action. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was -Mr. Crull? - -Mr. CABELL. Elgin E. Crull. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, for the record, you were then Mayor? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think it might be well also for the record if we have the -names of the people that composed the council at that time. - -Mr. CABELL. The council at that time was composed of Mr. Carie Welch. -He was also mayor pro tem. Mr. William Roberts, Mrs. Tracy Rutherford, -Mr. Joe Moody, Mr. Joe Golman, Mrs. Elizabeth Blessing, Mr. George -Underwood, Jr., Mr. R. B. Carpenter. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Mr. Crull had been serving as city -manager for quite some time? - -Mr. CABELL. Something over 10 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe briefly for us the relationship between -the mayor and the council and the city manager? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, it is the relationship of the general manager of -a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day -contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that -board. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the city manager really has the detailed -administration of city affairs? - -Mr. CABELL. He is entirely responsible for the administrative functions -of the city government. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the -council; is that correct? - -Mr. CABELL. As the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on -the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of -being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on -day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through -the mayor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the council make any other appointments than the -appointment of the city manager? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city -attorney, the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and -the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the Dallas -Clearing House Association. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand then that the chief of police is appointed by -the city manager completely? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct; and is responsible only to the city -manager. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of -the city manager? What authority do they have? - -Mr. CABELL. They confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein -their salaries are stipulated and they are named. - -Mr. HUBERT. But it is not an appointment such as with Federal officials -where the President appoints and the city confirms? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I want to ask you to state what you observed concerning -the actual shooting of the President, and perhaps the best way to start -is to tell us what position you were in in the Presidential parade. - -Mr. CABELL. We were separated from the President's car by the car in -which the Vice President and Senator Yarborough were riding, and by -a station wagon holding, I think, certain members of the press and -possibly some Secret Service, and I believe one other car of Secret -Service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our -place in the motorcade and the Presidential car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was in your car other than the driver? - -Mr. CABELL. Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts from McKinney, -Tex., Congressman from the Fourth District, and myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just the three of you? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who the driver was? - -Mr. CABELL. I do not remember his name. He was a member of the -Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you observe anything at all relative to the -shooting of the President? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm, -making the left turn, when the first shot rang out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir? - -Mr. CABELL. I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot", -and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker" -when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer -pause between the first and second shots than there was between the -second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There -was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a -high-powered rifle. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it -was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person -who knows something about it? - -Mr. CABELL. I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military -shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the armed services during the war? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to -their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of -the building known as the School Book Depository. - -Mr. HUBERT. That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you -thought the sound came? - -Mr. CABELL. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the -first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the -second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10 -seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than -5 seconds having elapsed until the third one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two to one ratio? - -Mr. CABELL. Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned, -as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds -because they were not counted. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now when you became conscious that these were shots and -that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas -School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building? - -Mr. CABELL. My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding -in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver? - -Mr. CABELL. I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a -convertible in which we were riding with the top down. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from -behind? - -Mr. CABELL. From behind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn in the direction of the shots? - -Mr. CABELL. I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential -car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves -on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in -the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the -building itself. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in any of the windows? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark -to you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that -remark was made immediately after the first shot? - -Mr. CABELL. Just immediately; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And before the second and third, is that right? - -Mr. CABELL. And really before I could get my answer out--I think it was -motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to -say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone -else in the car? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, in the discussion which followed, both Mr. Roberts -and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a .30-06. - -Mr. HUBERT. By spontaneous, I meant those remarks made just -immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see. - -Mr. CABELL. I don't remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a -spontaneous nature? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the -Presidential car and the vice presidential car went on? - -Mr. CABELL. Then we just followed and told the driver to follow them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went on then to the---- - -Mr. CABELL. We went on to the hospital. We could not tell whether they -were just going back to the airport or going toward the hospital. Now -there was a question raised among us as to where we were headed. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't in fact know who had been hit, I take it? - -Mr. CABELL. No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was -confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men -ran to that car. From out of nowhere appeared one Secret Service man -with a submachine gun. His attention seemed to be focused up toward -the building. One of the motorcycle officers and the escort pulled -his motorcycle over to the side and jumped off with his drawn handgun -and ran up the slope toward the building, toward the School Book -Depository. I do not recall any other shots being fired than the three -which I mentioned. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that you got to the hospital very shortly -after the Presidential car did? - -Mr. CABELL. Of course, when we turned off of Stemmons Expressway, we -knew then that we were headed toward Parkland. Otherwise, we would have -proceeded on Stemmons to Mockingbird Lane, which would have been the -direct route to the airport. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the hospital, had the President been -removed from the car? - -Mr. CABELL. He was in the process of being removed; was on the -carriage. Another carriage was brought out, and I was there and helped -to steady the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car -and placed on the carriage and wheeled in. And I helped escort the -carriage on into the hospital into the anteroom and stayed there until -the body was removed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to the room in which a press -conference was held, at which the official announcement was made of the -President's death? - -Mr. CABELL. I was not in when any official thing--I assumed that the -President was dead. - -Mr. HUBERT. I was trying to get the anteroom or hallway that you -described. Where was this with reference to the outside door of the -hospital, or the emergency room, or something of that sort? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, this was in the emergency section. There is a large -anteroom with a glassed-in enclosure where telephones were, and then -off from that larger room was a narrow anteroom from which a series of -operating rooms connected. - -The President was in one of those, and directly across this little -hallway then was where Governor Connally was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any news people in that area? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes; I am sure there must have been. I don't recall any -whom I recognized personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you know a reporter, newspaperman now with -Scripps-Howard, by the name of Seth Kantor? - -Mr. CABELL. I can't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now there is some information, Mr. Cabell, that Jack Ruby -was around the hospital some place, either near the entrance or near -the pressroom, or something of that sort. And, of course, I take it -that you now know what he looks like, from pictures in the press? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, I knew him by sight. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew him by sight prior to this? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him? - -Mr. CABELL. I would say for several years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around the hospital then at any time? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed until the President's body was removed? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that, sir? - -Mr. CABELL. We went--Mrs. Cabell accompanied me and went back to Love -Field. There was a number of members of the Texas delegation to the -Congress who had accompanied the President and Vice President on the -trip down here, and I more or less took them in tow and secured a -station wagon from the vehicles that were outside the hospital and -carried them, at the direction of one of the Secret Service agents who -was more or less in charge in there, to the Southwest Airmotive side of -Love Field, which is the eastern side, because he advised me that Air -Force I would take off from that side. So there was some with us in our -car, and then the station wagon with the additional ones. When we got -to Southwest Airmotive, Air Force I was still parked on the west side -of the field where they had deplaned the passengers earlier. Realizing -that it was going to take off rather quickly, I asked the public -relations man for Southwest Airmotive to get on the radio and contact -the Air Force officer in charge through the control tower as to what to -do about these men, whether to bring them over to that side, or was the -plane going to come over there. - -We did not get a direct answer, but the squad car of the Dallas Police -Department, which is assigned to Love Field, came over and got us, -apparently through clearance of the control tower, and carried us right -straight across the field. Apparently they stopped any movement to get -us across the field. Then those men were able to board the plane. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, after you left the field, after Air Force I had left, -what was your activity then, sir? - -Mr. CABELL. We stayed there on the ground until after _Air Force 1_ -had taken off with the body of the President. We conferred for a few -minutes with Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief of Police Curry. Chief Curry -was in the plane and a witness to the swearing in of President Johnson. -Shortly after it took off, then Mrs. Cabell, and I returned home. -We dropped Mrs. Cabell off, and then the driver carried me to Mr. -Jonsson's house where I left my car, and then I returned home. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first know of the apprehension of Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. On the field there, Chief Curry told us of the killing of -Officer Tippit, and I believe told us at the same time that they had -apprehended the suspect. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the suspect of the killing of the -President, or of Tippit? - -Mr. CABELL. That he was one and the same. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what information he had to indicate that -the killer of Tippit was also the assassin of the President? - -Mr. CABELL. Only that it was believed that he was one and the same. Now -the details, I did not get at that time either concerning the killing -of Officer Tippit or the subsequent apprehension of Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your next contact with Curry, if you recall? - -Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Curry. This was not -a face to face or personal contact. It was telephonic concerning the -issuance of this parade permit, which is covered in the report by the -bureau man. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was a conference by telephone on Sunday the 24th? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact, to your knowledge, with him? - -Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Chief Curry. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a contact with any other member of the police -department? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge of the situation in the county -jail with reference to the news media? - -Mr. CABELL. That was the city jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon, city jail, with reference to the -covering of the matter by the news media, and the confusion that came -about as a result of that? - -Mr. CABELL. I knew fairly well what was going on by watching my own -TV from time to time and the covering that they had on the activities -around the police department of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any meeting of the council during the interval -between the 22d and the 24th? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any contact with City Manager Crull during -that time? - -Mr. CABELL. The Sunday morning, I knew that the city manager was out -of town, and in my conversation with Chief Curry subsequent to the -shooting of Oswald, I asked him if he had made contact with Mr. Crull, -and suggested that if he had not, that he do make immediate contact and -ask for his return to the city. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. This was after the shooting of Oswald. And he told me at -that time that Mr. Crull had been contacted and was on his way back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know prior to the shooting of Oswald, or have you -learned since whether there was any awareness in the police department -of possible danger to Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. No, no. After it had all occurred, then I recall having -been told by someone that there had been an attempt, or that an attempt -would be made, but that is not clear, and purely a matter of hearsay. - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe in your conversation with Chief Curry on Sunday, -you discussed a threat that had been made to you, or indirectly? - -Mr. CABELL. He called me that this call had come through the -switchboard of the city hall, and it was his understanding that it -was long distance, but he did not know the source, and since it was a -direct dial and they could not trace it, there was not enough time, -wherein the caller said that an attempt would be made on my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. He told you that was a long-distance call? - -Mr. CABELL. It was his impression, the switchboard operator's -impression that it was some long distance. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to Oswald's death? - -Mr. CABELL. No; that was following Oswald's death, and that is when he -told me that he was sending officers out to maintain security. - -Mr. HUBERT. Attached to page 3 it seems to indicate that the call with -Curry must have occurred a bit before you received the news of Oswald's -shooting? - -Mr. CABELL. The first call from Curry, or only the starting of any -conversations with Chief Curry were relative to this torchlight parade -on that night. I had called him and told him that I would recommend -the cancellation of that parade. He had granted it, but then I had -recommended the cancellation, and I would assume full responsibility -for having given that instruction. - -Mr. HUBERT. At that time Oswald had not been shot? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But on that first call then, was there any discussion -between you and Chief Curry about the transfer of Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion about the security precautions -that were being observed or the problems that they were? - -Mr. CABELL. I do not recall any discussion on that at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry did not tell you that any threats had been made -to Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period November 22 until the shooting of -Oswald, did you have any conversations with the press concerning the -whole matter? - -Mr. CABELL. There were a number of calls. There were members of the -press, both the national and international press that came to my home -during that period. I had given a statement on Friday night to both -television stations. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was by---- - -Mr. CABELL. That was on Friday. - -Mr. HUBERT. On television? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether any part of those statements or -interviews had to do with the transfer of Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. None whatsoever. There was never any during that period. -There was never any mention of that. It was not brought up nor -discussed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then later on Sunday morning, I understand after the -security call from Chief Curry, there was another call from him with -regard to the death of Oswald? - -Mr. CABELL. He called me. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean the shooting of Oswald. - -Mr. CABELL. Yes; the incident referred to here about a friend calling. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say "here." You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. -1? - -Mr. CABELL. "He received a telephone call from a friend." That friend -was Mrs. R. O. Alexander who said, "Do you have your television on?" -And I said, No. She said, "Get it on quick. They have just shot -Oswald." And I immediately turned my television on. I was in the den -where I was sitting and taking these telephone calls, and then just -as I get it turned on, they still had not removed Oswald at that -time because this was just a matter of a minute or 2 from the actual -shooting. Then Chief Curry called and said, "They have just shot -Oswald." And I said, "Yes; I have it on TV now." - -Mr. HUBERT. Was any action taken then by anybody, do you know, -concerning, first, security measures or further protection against? - -Mr. CABELL. Nothing to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think I have asked this before. If I have, then just -disregard it, but did you contact City Manager Crull during the -interval? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I did not contact him. Now he came to my home -immediately on his return to the city. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which was about what time? - -Mr. CABELL. This was, well, it was early afternoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of the 24th? - -Mr. CABELL. This was on the 24th, on Sunday; yes. It was about 1 -o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you comment upon this Lancaster Smith Proposal of a -parade? - -Mr. CABELL. Lane Smith is a very well-known, very active lay worker -in the Catholic church, and he had called me earlier, and I think the -suggestion for this came from some nuns, and when he first talked to me -I didn't realize frankly the implications or the hazard of a procession -such as that, and I told him--he asked about a permit, and I said that -that is a matter that is handled by the chief of police, that he would -have to be the one to issue a permit for any type of parade, because -that is what that amounted to. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the proposal of Mr. Smith? - -Mr. CABELL. Well, a torchlight procession of both the clergy and any -lay people as a procession of mourning that would pass by the site of -the assassination and put flowers at the site. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was proposed for Sunday night? - -Mr. CABELL. That was proposed for Sunday night, and after having -talked with him, then the implications began to dawn on me, and when -I realized that that was in a rather poorly lighted area, it is not -in the best part of town, and that the procession itself would pass -possibly under the very window of the jail where Oswald presumably -would be by that time, then that was the reason behind my calling the -chief then. - -He told me he had issued the permit because he had no reason not to, -and then that is when I made the recommendation that it be canceled. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was canceled in fact? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes; it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. CABELL. Oh, I think undoubtedly, because he said he would call Lanc -immediately back. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did Lancaster Smith call you? - -Mr. CABELL. I think it must have been around 8 or 9 o'clock in the -morning, originally. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you called Chief Curry about what time? - -Mr. CABELL. Must have been very shortly after that. I would say 9 -o'clock or possibly a short time after. I believe that it must have -been just a little before 10, because I think that he was talking to me -in his office at the time word was brought to him that Oswald was shot, -or possibly had hung up the phone, or he would have mentioned that to -me at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Because the evidence we now have shows that Oswald was shot -about 11:20, so perhaps your time would have been 11 rather than 10? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes; I was thinking in terms of 10 o'clock being the hour -of shooting, but we can move this conversation with Curry to a matter -of minutes preceding the shooting of Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now were any threatening calls received by you directly? - -Mr. CABELL. Only one, which was received by Mrs. Cabell on New Year's -Eve. - -Mr. HUBERT. December 31, 1963? - -Mr. CABELL. December 31, 1963; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any received indirectly? - -Mr. CABELL. Only those that were reported to us by Chief Curry. There -was one incident which was not a call, but which was an unusual thing -and which caused a certain amount of apprehension. - -On a Saturday evening, which one I can't tell you, but it was while -security was being maintained, that I decided to go out and eat dinner. -Mrs. Cabell did not want to go. She said she would just stay at home. -One of the officers stayed with Mrs. Cabell. The other one accompanied -me to Tupinamba, a Mexican cafe on Lovers Lane. I told Mrs. Cabell I -would get Mexican food there. There are three places in the immediate -vicinity, all of which we patronize from time to time. - -The officer and I were in having our dinner when the proprietor came -over and said that I was wanted on the phone. I picked up the receiver. -I could hear traffic noises in the background, so I knew that the -line was open. I said, Hello several times, and the receiver clicked -in my ear. I thought that Mrs. Cabell had possibly tried to get hold -of me, and I called her, and she said, "No, she had not." So it was -obvious that someone who was either in the restaurant and had left -when we came in, or had seen us enter the restaurant, put in this call, -apparently just a nuisance or harassing type of thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been in the restaurant did this call -come? - -Mr. CABELL. Oh, a matter of 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never found the source of that? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was any investigation made? - -Mr. CABELL. There was no way of making an investigation. The assumption -is that the call was placed from one of the public telephones that are -up and down that business section there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, there have been some reports as to the -authenticity or veracity of, for which I do not vouch at all, to the -effect that some pressure was put upon Chief of Police Curry by you or -others to cooperate with the press in all ways possible. I think in -fairness I should give you an opportunity to comment upon that. - -Mr. CABELL. There was one that has been rumored. One of our local -weekly publications made that as a statement. That is completely false. -At no time did I have any contact with Chief Curry to the extent that -I gave him any orders, instructions, or make any comment upon the -situation other than the contact which I have mentioned with reference -to this proposed torchlight parade. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon him by anyone in -authority over him? - -Mr. CABELL. I do not know of any, and my assumption would be, and I say -assumption, would be that none had been made, because I know how Mr. -Crull operates to the extent that he would not interfere in the duties -of his chief of police. Now I am sure that they had conversations with -reference to security and that sort of thing, but I would question very -definitely that any orders as such on that subject would have been -issued by Mr. Crull. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, neither you nor anyone else, to your -knowledge, did anything of that sort, to wit, bring pressure upon him -in anyway whatsoever? - -Mr. CABELL. That is entirely correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, do you have anything else to say, sir? - -Mr. CABELL. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that I could add. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of the recordation of your -testimony, we had a very short conversation, but will you agree with -me now that there was nothing that was discussed in that conversation -relating to the testimony that has not been actually covered in the -deposition? - -Mr. CABELL. That is correct. I recall no conversation of any sort -pertaining to this incident that has not been covered in the -examination under this deposition. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. - -(The following questions were asked upon completion of the deposition -of Mrs. Earle Cabell.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mayor Cabell, I wonder if you would agree for just a couple -of questions for your deposition to be continued under the same terms -and conditions that I began, and that you are under the same oath? - -Mr. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to comment, if you will, please, about -the recordation of conversations on your telephone, telling us when the -recordation system was set up, and when removed. - -Mr. CABELL. It was set up on Sunday afternoon. That would have been -the 24th; which recorded all conversations that came into action when -the receiver was taken off the hook. It was removed on, I would say, -after about 3 weeks. I am quite sure that it had been removed prior to -December 31. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever learned of any conversations that -were of a threatening nature? - -Mr. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have not heard the tape, of course? - -Mr. CABELL. No; I have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is reasonable to suppose that if any had been recorded, -it would have been brought to your attention? - -Mr. CABELL. I am sure it would. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who has the possession of that tape? - -Mr. CABELL. The police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. They still have it? - -Mr. CABELL. I am assuming that they still have it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much, sir. I certainly thank both -of you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLE CABELL - -The testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell was taken at 10 a.m., on July 13, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant -attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell. Mrs. Cabell, -my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions -of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and -the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition -from you, among others. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cabell, the nature of -the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death -of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general -inquiry. - -Now Mrs. Cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed -actually to you and your husband, Mayor Earle Cabell, by Mr. J. Lee -Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is -that correct? That letter was dated either the 8th or 9th, or in any -case was received on the 8th or 9th of July? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mrs. CABELL. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for the record, please, ma'am. - -Mrs. CABELL. Mrs. Earle Cabell. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are the wife of former Mayor Earle Cabell? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You reside with him now at what address? - -Mrs. CABELL. 5338 Drane. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I think you were with your husband in the -presidential parade on November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. CABELL. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us in your own words what you -observed concerning the shooting of the President. I might say that -your husband has testified that you were in the second or third car -behind the President's car--the third or fourth car. - -Mrs. CABELL. Third or fourth. We have never been able to be sure about -that, because we were under the impression--of course, the chief of -police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the -impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car, -the station wagon apparently with Secret Service men, and then our car. -There have been other statements made which we have never been quite -sure of, that there was a Secret Service car between the presidential -car and the vice presidential car. If that is true, we were one car -further back. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible? - -Mrs. CABELL. Behind the driver. - -Mr. HUBERT. Behind the driver. That would have put---- - -Mrs. CABELL. Me on the left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was on your right? - -Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Ray Roberts? - -Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the -front seat? - -Mrs. CABELL. The right of the driver. - -Mr. HUBERT. The right of the driver. Now will you tell us in your own -words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the President's death? - -Mrs. CABELL. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School -Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us. - -Congressman Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned -the same way. I was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each -other. The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang -out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the -building. I was directly facing it. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was still really on Houston? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; we were making the turn. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just on the turn? - -Mrs. CABELL. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you -see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Since you were actually turned toward Representative -Roberts on your right? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you were facing---- - -Mrs. CABELL. The building. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Texas Depository Building? - -Mrs. CABELL. I was actually facing it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary -nature, or heard? - -Mrs. CABELL. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I -jerked my head up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that? - -Mrs. CABELL. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, -and I just jerked my head up. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you see? - -Mrs. CABELL. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those -windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos. - -Mr. HUBERT. In which window did you see the projection? - -Mrs. CABELL. I have always been a little confused about that, but I -think it was the first window. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what floor? - -Mrs. CABELL. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which -window. There was some confusion in my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you say there were double windows. Is the confusion -about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or -second window of the double windows? - -Mrs. CABELL. The first or second window of the first group of double -windows. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was this projection? - -Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the -projection. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or -something mechanical? - -Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or -a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked -my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to -say to Earle, Earle, it is a shot, and before I got the words out, just -as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a----" the -second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of -confusion in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I -was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question -about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation -of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your -attention from that window? - -Mrs. CABELL. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that -window when the second and third shots were fired? - -Mrs. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter? - -Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the -people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the -ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw -herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope. - -Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell -of gunpowder? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after? - -Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the -motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts -said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired? - -Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor? - -Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill? - -Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the -hospital? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that -you had smelled gunpowder? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned -it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks -ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he had observed it? - -Mrs. CABELL. As well as I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group, -a large group, and there was much conversation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any other spontaneous remarks by anyone else? -By spontaneous remarks, I mean remarks made then, not later. - -Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts--and I believe this was after -the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of some -seconds--then when the motorcade started up, Congressman Roberts -said--these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: -"If all is well ahead, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting -out." - -Mr. HUBERT. His previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which -you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was -fired and before you began to move? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any other remark made by anyone other than those -that you have covered? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "If -all is well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Who said? - -Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts said, "If all is well, we are headed -for Love Field. We are getting out." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the driver say anything, to your knowledge? - -Mrs. CABELL. I don't recall that he said a word. - -Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you were standing absolutely still for -a few seconds, did you have occasion, or did you in fact look up at -that window again? - -Mrs. CABELL. Not again, as I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the hospital too? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were with your husband? - -Mrs. CABELL. When we reached the hospital, the Presidential car was -pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which -pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. And as my -husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and -said, "Stay in the car." And I believe at that time that Congressman -Roberts got out of the car. The Texas delegation was standing around -the cars at that time. And I sat in the car with our driver for quite -some time. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long, about? - -Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. Time left me that day. I sat there -for quite a long time. I stood up and I saw them taking the President -out of the car. I saw my husband by the carriage when the Governor -was taken out of the car. Then our driver, after they went into the -hospital, turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the -Texas delegation, Senator Yarborough, all of the others--the delegation -moved back and forth from the car where I was sitting, up to the door -of the hospital. It is my impression that none of them went in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes; twice. Do you want me to tell you both times? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma'am. - -Mrs. CABELL. Well, this is a little difficult for me to tell. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. What I am interested in is whether -or not you saw Jack Ruby there. Did you know him prior to that time? - -Mrs. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen his pictures? - -Mrs. CABELL. Since; but I had never seen him before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at any place that you went in the hospital, -in front of the hospital, or about the hospital on that day? - -Mrs. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. In order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him -there, would you tell us just what places you were? - -Mrs. CABELL. In the hospital? - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you out there for some time? - -Mrs. CABELL. There came a time when it was necessary for me to find a -ladies' room. I walked up to one of the many police officers at the -door and I said, Officer, I am Mrs. Earle Cabell. He said, "Yes, Mrs. -Cabell, I know." I have no idea which officer it was. I said, "It is -necessary for me to go into the ladies' room. Can you get me in?" He -said, "I can try." He had quite a good deal of trouble getting me in -and identifying me. They did not let me go in until a nurse's aid was -brought to the door. They did not let me stay on the first floor where -the emergency section was. They took me to the left. This nurse's aid -took me to the left with the police officer following, and we crossed -the cafeteria and went over toward the front of the building. The -nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with me. The policeman stood at -the door. We went back the same way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was -some difficulty getting you in. - -Mrs. CABELL. I do not know. An elderly man in shirt sleeves, that I -remember. I assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. I don't -really know that to be true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there police or State police or city police? - -Mrs. CABELL. They were everywhere. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you mean they were checking people going into the -hospital? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. Then as I came in, the policeman escorted me back to -our car. I sat there again, I do not know how much longer I sat, but -somebody brought me a Coca-Cola. We, as you know, had nothing to eat or -drink since coffee at Mr. and Mrs. Eric Jonsson's, where we gathered -before going to Love Field. Then a man came up to me. I have to assume -that he was a Secret Service man. He said, "Are you Mrs. Earle Cabell?" -I said, "Yes." He said, "There are no ladies presently with Mrs. -Kennedy. We feel that it might be nice if you go in." So I handed my -partially drunk Coca-Cola to the driver, and I went in with this man. -Another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this -second time when we got to the door, this man said, "This is Mrs. Earle -Cabell," and we walked right in. - -Mr. HUBERT. He said that to whom? - -Mrs. CABELL. The man at the door. - -Mr. HUBERT. The same man that had been at the door before? - -Mrs. CABELL. I assume it was. There was such a short time that elapsed. -He took me down. You turn to the right as you went in the door down -this very wide hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my -husband coming toward us going out. I looked at him and he said, -"I will be back." So we walked on in to this smaller hallway which -separated the emergency rooms, either side of them. Mrs. Kennedy was -sitting just outside the door of Emergency Room No. 1 in a straight -chair. I walked up to her---- - -Mr. HUBERT. She was alone? - -Mrs. CABELL. She was alone. There were, I am sure, Secret Service men. -There was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting -alone. I walked up to her and I said, "Mrs. Kennedy, I am Elizabeth -Cabell. I wish there was something that I could do to help." And in a -very dazed manner she said, "Yes, I remember you gave me the roses." -And somebody put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a -few moments. And she said, "I would like a cigarette." My purse was -on the floor behind my chair. I turned around to pick up my purse to -give her a cigarette, and when I turned back around, she was walking -into Emergency Room No. 2. I judge that it was next to the President, -the room the President's body was in, and her purse was on a carriage -in that emergency room. She was fumbling in her purse, and I said to -her, "I have a cigarette here for you." It was exactly as though she -had not heard me. She didn't answer me at all, and she kept fumbling -in her purse and finally she came up with a cigarette. Then she turned -to me as though she had never seen me before, but said, "But I don't -have a match." And I said, "I have a match here for you." I lighted her -cigarette and she turned around and walked out of that emergency room. -We went back to the two chairs outside of Emergency Room No. 1 and sat -down. - -Just at that time I looked up and saw a Catholic priest coming toward -us. It was not Father Huber. It was a man I did not recognize. I later -understood he was the Catholic chaplain of the hospital. I am not -sure about that. I got up and walked a few steps to meet him, and I -said, "Father, take my chair by Mrs. Kennedy." Which he did do. In the -meantime, my husband had come back in, and I stepped back where my -husband was standing, and we stood there until the casket was wheeled -out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was any announcement made to Mrs. Kennedy of the death of -her husband? - -Mrs. CABELL. Not while I was in there. I am under the impression--you -see, I was still sitting out in the car when they brought Vice -President, I guess then, and Mrs. Johnson out and put them in the car -and took them away. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the President's death when you went to Mrs. -Kennedy? - -Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts had come back to the car and said, "He -is gone." - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that Mrs. Kennedy then knew of the -death of her husband when you first came up to her? - -Mrs. CABELL. That is my impression. We did not discuss it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that there was a telephone call received -by you that was of a threatening nature? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about that, please, ma'am? The time and -so forth? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it was New Year's Eve. Of necessity, the security -had asked us not to be out, that so many people had come in for the -New Year's Day game, that they were uneasy. There was the possibility -that Chief Justice Warren might come. There was the rumor that he might -come. There was the rumor that the President himself might come. We -knew that the President's daughters were here, so they asked us not to -wander around that night. We have spent New Year's night for many years -with a very close group of friends, so we invited them to our home that -night, but we explained to them that early in the evening and under -rather heavy security, we went downtown to the Sheraton Hotel into a -private suite to greet the Under Secretary of Navy and his wife. We -stayed in this group possibly 30 or 40 minutes and then we went back to -our home. At that time security had been lessened in our home. There -were only two men with us at all times then. It had been much heavier -earlier. The men had been in our home so long that they were like -members of the family almost. They knew most of our guests because they -had accompanied us on the Christmas parties and festivities that we -went to. We were never without them. - -We did not drive our own cars for 2 months. So most of these guests -were known to the security officers that were in our home that night. -But I am again hazy on the time. It must have been about 11 o'clock. -I walked back into our bedroom for something, and the phone rang back -there. I picked it up. This man's voice--it was not a kid, it was not -a drunk--said, "Mrs. Cabell?" I said, Yes. He said, "We are coming to -kill that God damn mayor now." And hung up the phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, do you have a listed number? - -Mrs. CABELL. An unlisted number. That is what startled us. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is an unlisted number? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it is an unlisted number, and that is what startled -us. I walked out of the bedroom through the living room, through the -dining room, and into the kitchen and caught the eye of one of the -security officers and motioned to him. He followed me back into the -bedroom, and I closed the door and told him what had happened. He -walked straight to the phone and called his superior officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, did this seem to be a local call, or long -distance? - -Mrs. CABELL. I have no way of knowing. When I picked up the phone and -said "Hello," this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." - -Mr. HUBERT. And he said what you have just said, and that is all? - -Mrs. CABELL. He hung up before I did. So Officer Beaty picked up the -phone and called his superior. I had said to him, "Please ask what to -do about our guests." Because there had always been the thinking among -the security officers, the possibility of a bomb being thrown at the -house. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, was your unlisted phone number carefully -guarded or kept? - -Mrs. CABELL. No, no. It was given to our church. It was given to the -press. They all had it. They had to talk to Earle. It was given to some -organizations to which we belonged. The thinking on our part was that -we wanted to be available to responsible people. It was merely the -crank calls that we were trying to avoid after Earle went in office. - -Mr. HUBERT. So it was rather widely disseminated, and I suppose -recorded by those people? - -Mrs. CABELL. Who it had been given to; that's right. So it was not an -impossible number to obtain. It couldn't be in Earle's position. - -Mr. STOREY. (after shortly entering the room). Mr. Hubert, I might say -I had trouble in finding it the one time I wanted to call the mayor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mrs. Cabell, I have nothing more to ask you. If you -have anything you would like to say concerning the subjects we have -covered, or anything else pertinent to the inquiry, we would be glad to -hear from you. - -Mrs. CABELL. I do not know of anything that would be of any help except -that from Earle's experience at Tupinamba, that somebody knew when -those police cars pulled in and out of that driveway. There was always -one facing the street. They were not squad cars. They were cars that -the Special Service men drove. They were Galaxies, different color, but -they all carried the license that people who knew about things like -that could recognize them as being a police car. One evening Chief -Curry called and talked to my husband and said things had been so quiet -that if you and Mrs. Cabell feel all right about it, I am going to -bring the boys in. And my husband said, "Now Chief, that has always -been up to you. Whatever you think, is what we want you to do. Within -30 minutes, I would say, after the security officers and the cars had -gone, a threatening call came through the police switchboard, so within -another 30 minutes the security was back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what that was? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; I cannot give you the date. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know of it? - -Mrs. CABELL. I didn't know it until the next morning. The boys didn't -come in the house that night. Earle didn't know it. We have a very -trusted colored man who has been with us 26 years, and when he used his -own key to come in the house next morning, I said, "Well, Phillip, I -guess you miss our friends." And he said, "Mrs. Cabell, they haven't -gone. They are outside." And I looked out the kitchen window and there -they were. I went out---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know, do you, whether that threatening call made -reference to the fact that the security had been removed? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; I do not. But the thinking on the part of the police -was that somebody was watching that driveway, because the call came in -within 30 minutes after the car had gone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else that you wish to say? - -Mrs. CABELL. Only that, and days again escape me--I think it was the -day of the President's funeral, my husband was in Washington. This -can be verified, because by that time all of our phone calls were -recorded. The phone rang early one afternoon, and I picked it up, and -this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." I said "Yes." He said, "This is -so-and-so--and the name I did not catch, or recall--said "I am with one -of the news media. I would like to come out for an interview." Or words -to that effect. And I said, "Well, Mr. Cabell is not here. You will -have to talk to him about that." Then he said to me, "How heavily are -you being guarded out there? Do you still have security?" And I don't -know what I said, but I put it off. I passed it off. And by that time -I had motioned to the security man that was in the next room, and he -picked up the receiver, but the man had hung up by that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that your calls were being recorded as early -as the date of the President's funeral? - -Mrs. CABELL. No; earlier. - -Mr. HUBERT. Earlier? - -Mrs. CABELL. Because the telephone men were out there within an hour -after the shooting of Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. They set up a recordation system whereby all calls could be -recorded? - -Mrs. CABELL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that still on at the time of New Year's Eve? - -Mrs. CABELL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that removed? - -Mrs. CABELL. I can't tell you. Sometime during that 2 months, but I -cannot say when. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do not think it was on at the time of the New -Year's Eve call? - -Mrs. CABELL. I am sure it wasn't, because the little recording machine, -or whatever it was, had been---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Soundscriber? - -Mrs. CABELL. Had been removed, and I believe I am correct in saying -that that was removed at the time, and I can't give you a date, that -they cut down to only two officers at a time being with us. For a long -time there were two with me and two with Earle and two at the house. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I don't think there was actually any -conversation much before the recordation of your deposition began -between us, but in any case, I think you will agree with me that -nothing was covered during the unrecorded conversation we had that has -not been recorded here? - -Mrs. CABELL. As far as I know; that is true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, ma'am. - -Mrs. CABELL. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP L. WILLIS - -The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand [standing]? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WILLIS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to -it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint -resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's -procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to -have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and -you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available -to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. I assume that -you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney -present, because you are here without one? - -Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. WILLIS. Phillip L. Willis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, sir? - -Mr. WILLIS. 2824 Ava Lane, Dallas 27, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. WILLIS. August 2, 1918. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. WILLIS. Kaufman County, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Texas throughout most of your life? - -Mr. WILLIS. All my life, with the exception of my military service. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived here in Dallas? - -Mr. WILLIS. Since April 1, 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you engaged in, or by whom are you -employed? - -Mr. WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and -I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent -real estate broker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of -the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, at the -time of the assassination; is that correct? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, -and what you did at that time? - -Mr. WILLIS. I had a driver drop my family and I in the parkway so -that we could have a chance to get a good view of the President's -party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. We -were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street -approaching the area on Main, and I stood at the corner of Main and -Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor -one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. -So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and -making the turn onto Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the -corner, you say? - -Mr. WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you saw him---- - -Mr. WILLIS. Across from the county jail on the parkway there near the -esplanade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you saw the motorcade coming down Main Street, did you? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes; we could see it for a block or two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then the motorcade turned onto Houston and you took some -pictures at that time? - -Mr. WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President -approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend -of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in -one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. -Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston -approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran -across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the -curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on -Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in -front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine, on the edge of the -street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 -feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got -the occupants in the center. I was that close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture -which is in the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life magazine in a -picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page 4; -is that correct? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the individual who stands almost directly behind -the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with -a camera? - -Mr. WILLIS. With my camera raised; yes, sir. The little girl in the red -dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The farthest person in the right in the back of that -picture? - -Mr. WILLIS. The farthest person in that picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you stand at that particular spot the entire -time, or did you move down Elm Street? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first -shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, -and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me -in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next -shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the -camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with -the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had -time to react. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have, as I understand it, a series of 12 slides, -which apparently have been prepared by something called Phil Willis -Enterprises, and which I understand is being marketed, at least in the -Dallas area? - -Mr. WILLIS. We haven't done anything with them as yet, but I am the -only one, I am told, who has a complete set of the prints covering the -last 25 seconds of the President's life and the assassination and the -tragedy following. - -I was so shocked I didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. -And the same people who bought those said they would have been -invaluable had I brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to -do that. And later there has been so many requests because of the -historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the -public. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit -No. 1, which I now show you and I suggest to you that it is one of the -pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides. - -Mr. WILLIS. I made that picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You made that picture yourself? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same as slide No. 5? In your series of slides? - -Mr. WILLIS. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made? - -Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first -shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge -under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons Highway sign is a gentleman -who took the last pictures that appeared in Life, and his pictures -showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and -the President, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his -throat. - -This was pointed out to the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. Picture No. 2 will verify that, in Life magazine. You -see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one I have the -front of. And as he approached this same sign in this film, he has -already grabbed his throat. That is verified by that fact. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the pictures on page 4 of the memorial -edition of Life magazine. Picture No. 1 shows you standing, as we have -already indicated, standing back with your camera? - -Mr. WILLIS. Picture 2 shows the President just as the car comes from -behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his -throat at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The sign in question is one that reads "Stemmons Freeway -Keep Right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you -took which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. WILLIS. The only one in that vicinity. It has to be the same one. -You will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the -street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the -other way when I have the picture in question here from the rear. - -That same picture from the other side of the street in Life shows he -has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in -question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go through that again. I didn't understand it. Let me -remind you of this. When you mention a picture, let's try and refer -to them by numbers, because if you do that, I won't have to repeat -it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. -You were making a point just a minute ago about something that I -didn't understand. You were referring to some of the pictures in Life -magazine, and also to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is the picture you -took. - -Mr. WILLIS. All right, sir, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of -the picture I took, shows the President's car had proceeded almost past -the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. Referring back to panel No. 2 -of the Life Memorial Edition of Life magazine on page 4, it shows that -Mrs. Kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the President has already -grabbed his throat. That picture shows that his car has not passed the -Stemmons sign completely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. WILLIS. Referring back to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I took, the -President's car in fact has passed the Stemmons sign, and he has turned -the opposite direction from the previous picture that I took close up, -and it proves without question that at this instant the President had -been hit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other -picture that you took close up. Is that included in your set of slides -here? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; it is slide No. 4, which you see doesn't include -the front or the rear of the President's car, but the center. That is -proving how close it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Picture No. 4 in your group of slides was taken shortly -before picture No. 5 was taken, is that right? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; not more than 3 seconds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which picture you were taking or you took at -the time that is shown here in panel No. 1 of this memorial edition of -Life magazine? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide No. 4, the -closeup of the President directly in front of the Texas School Book -Depository. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now from the time that you took No. 4, and when you took -No. 4, you were standing as shown in picture No. 1 in Life magazine? - -Mr. WILLIS. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do before you took No. 5, which we have -marked here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Did you move down the street, or -were you standing in the same place, or do you remember? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this -importance, I moved down the street slightly to try to get another -view, and, of course, I had the camera looking through the viewfinder -to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. I -moved as far as I could within that 3 seconds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not able to tell us exactly where you were -when you took the picture that we have here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1, -but it was a little bit farther on down Elm Street, still on the grassy -area described by Elm and Main Street; is that correct? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I can verify that where I was going back to Life -magazine again, because this picture No. 2 on page 4 of the John F. -Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life, there is a tree in the background. -The only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. -And the shadow of that tree is shown in slide No. 5 that I took, which -would show my position. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I see you would have to study just from where the -sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and -we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the -street? - -Mr. WILLIS. Off the record. Let me say this. You see in No. 1 shot -where I am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. -This little bush--there is the shadow from the tree. This tree is on -the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow -in that picture. So you see that I did move down approximately this far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Now, you are certain that the first shot was -fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time -you took the picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1; is that -right? - -Mr. WILLIS. I am positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing the shot? - -Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. I, having been in World War II, and being -a deer hunter hobbyist, I would recognize a high-powered rifle -immediately. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle? - -Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard it just about the time you took the picture -that has been marked? - -Mr. WILLIS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked -Hudson Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis? - -Mr. WILLIS. Three shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the -picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other -pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately -about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running -along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned -about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't -hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew -something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like -a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit -something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like -that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I -saw they were heading back toward their mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was she? - -Mr. WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete -structure. How do you refer to that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection -of Main Street and Houston Street? - -Mr. WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; -that is the one across the street--no; here she was. She was in between -Main, and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only -a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from -where the President was hit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete -structure on Dealey Plaza? - -Mr. WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an -opening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass? - -Mr. WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had -a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that -time--at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block -her vision. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in -the head? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was -more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute -the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear -me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being -directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear -to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the -street where the building was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building -at the time when you heard the shots? - -Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that? - -Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure? - -Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came -from high up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that? - -Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was -12:33 when I looked up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository? - -Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it -alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, -it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide -on No. 12. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not actually observe the President at the time -he was hit in the head? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I was just taking a picture of him, and the -presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. -But my little daughter ran back and said, "Oh, Daddy, they have shot -our President. His whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? Is this the girl that is here today? - -Mr. WILLIS. The little one was the one that made that remark. My -youngest daughter, Rosemary. The one that is with me today also saw it, -and she went back and told her mother the same thing. And her mother -said, "Yes; I saw it." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the -President's car as it went down Elm Street? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three -shots fired? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that the President had been hit by the -first shot? - -Mr. WILLIS. I didn't really know, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? -You couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the -second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. -When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and -looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and -facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, -her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less -faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me -to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause -me to wonder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is -that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, -or which way? - -Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight -ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of -the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right -toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to -wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had -about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides -as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Mr. -Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing -for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about -when we refer to this exhibit. - -(Mr. Willis marks initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have already established that the picture that has -been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative -or from slide No. 5 on Willis' Exhibit No. 1; is that correct? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad -tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the -time the President was shot? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there -on those railroad tracks? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that -there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did see policemen up there? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among -the spectators. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how many spectators would you say were up there? -Was there a big crowd? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But -I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired -from that direction? - -Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people -falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete -wall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Across the street from Elm Street? - -Mr. WILLIS. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the -School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, -and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, -evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I -started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly -across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely -positive about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots? - -Mr. WILLIS. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the -fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that -building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I notice. - -Mr. WILLIS. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my -own mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these -pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I -should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about. - -Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took -that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt -before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which -shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of -the presidential car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is that far in the background, way in the back of -the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street? - -Mr. WILLIS. Yes; that would be the background. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or -four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in -while you are still here. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LINDA KAY WILLIS - -The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear -you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are -about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Miss WILLIS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and -he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School -Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted -to ask you two or three questions about that. - -First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please? - -Miss WILLIS. Linda Kay Willis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? - -Miss WILLIS. I will be 15, July 29. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the -School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of -the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that -correct? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be -shots, as the motorcade came past you there? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and -then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, -well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed -his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell -where the second shot went. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm -Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street -from the School Book Depository Building? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or -did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from -there? - -Miss WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where -Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons -Freeway"? - -Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I -wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot -came. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm -Street? - -Miss WILLIS. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the -courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it -turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with -the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where -the Stemmons sign is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the President get hit in the head? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually saw the President get hit that way? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far away would you say that you were when you saw -that? - -Miss WILLIS. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. -Maybe not quite that far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 25 feet or so? - -Miss WILLIS. About that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did -you hear any more shots after that? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then -he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot -went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in -the head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You only heard three shots altogether? - -Miss WILLIS. Yes; that was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got -hit in the head? - -Miss WILLIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots -right away? - -Miss WILLIS. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's -probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. -Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then -when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew -he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard -any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't -hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. -Thank you very much. - -Miss WILLIS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM - -The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1364, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly -swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. -I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission -investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been -authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to -authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I -think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission -because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; -is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the -Kennedys--President Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer -Tippit? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, -I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some -questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you -appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony -before the Commission. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the -question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from -New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, -"Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf -of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball -asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the -mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball -asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" -And then you answered, No, sir." - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and -Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the -telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to -Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in -here, I wouldn't know who he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you -also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never -talked to him over the telephone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you -were in Washington, before today? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me -they were reporters, came to my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to -him yourself? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I never even talked to her even. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a -tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation -between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript -which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No. 1---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me tell you now---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make -arrangements--I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this -afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have -the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so -you can tell us whether or not that is your voice? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service -bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let -me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--I -was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this -brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore -mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he -told me he was from the city. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told -me he was--now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was -Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are -familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the -police department of the city of Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a -number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at -your office where you worked; were you working? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this -office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a -number as that that you know of? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called -this number here, Matthew 7-6797. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I -worked at was Riverside 8. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret -Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to -this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to -know that. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he -was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the -Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You -see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the -Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be -within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. All right. - -(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m., -as follows:) - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and -he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we -will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the -U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, -Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not -this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the -telephone some time ago? - -The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the -record here? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, -I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone -conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum -consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau -of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is -not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this. - -(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the -telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, -Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, -the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record -here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began -indicating her reactions.) - -"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your -affidavit which you gave the police on that date. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would -be good enough to talk to me?" - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape -recorder, Mrs. Markham. - -John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to -indicate by that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked -to no woman or no man like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you -following it along, Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and -exact transcript of the recording? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it -says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and -those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I -got--nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you -recognize your voice here on the tape. - -"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell -you that." I don't have the time to. - -"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read -where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and -had bushy hair. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that. - -"Mr. LANE. You did not say that? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short. - -"Mr. LANE. He was short? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy. - -"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy. - -"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather -bushy kind of hair?" - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy. - -"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone. - -"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to -see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did -they bring you down to look at him? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup. - -"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him. - -"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone -point him out to you at that time as the man? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup? - -"Mr. LANE. Yes. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not. - -"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing. - -"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot -Officer Tippit? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket. - -"Mr. LANE. Yes. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers. - -"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh. - -"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not. - -"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was -closed--pretty close too. - -"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates -the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned -on it and placed his arms up against the car. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window. - -"Mr. LANE. In the window? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all. - -"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop. - -"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it. - -"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever -it was, walked over to the car? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car. - -"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window. - -"Mr. LANE. He did what? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window. - -"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh. - -"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir? - -"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit. - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been. - -"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, -because, you see, he leaned over in the window. - -"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station -when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder. - -"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy -side and had slightly bushy hair? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that. - -"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing. - -"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like -that? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your -affidavit, right? - -"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point. - -Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down. - -The REPORTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do -you mean by that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never -on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me -he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department -of the city hall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with -somebody? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police -department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little -more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that -said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone -calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the -police department? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a -call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had -called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them -that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told -me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had -to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, -and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this -man. Now, he told me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is -asking you what the police did. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your -affidavit. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a -man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the -city hall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked -to? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on -this tape recording is your voice? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the -first time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's -voice on the tape now is your voice? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city -police. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he -said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you -tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this -tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over -to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this -man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the -officer roll the window down. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you -tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the -description of the man who shot Tippit?" - -You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was -asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with -me? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and -he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my -work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in -this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that -he was from the police department; is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just -like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come -down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this -lady never talked to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the -one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the -long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you -to the telephone and a man answered the telephone. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the -telephone and he told you that he was from the police department? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never -had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in -this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the -beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he -was from the police department when he called? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer -Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that -you want me to look at? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show -you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my -daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time -and I don't know what it even means. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a -piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the -Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, -1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in -Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas -21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham -and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday -or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the -opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually -profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr." - -We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit -No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials -on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't -have any trouble identifying it in the future. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials. - -(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It -gives a post office box is all I saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or -anything like that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs--you never know who -it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI -9-3195; did you notice that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I -don't know, but I called. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what -you think about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, -apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows: - -"Dear Mrs. Markham: - -"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report -on the findings of the Warren Commission. - -"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence -of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses -who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request -your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your -presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings -in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and -misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the -other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction -and will contact you personally concerning our request. - -"I look forward to talking with you. - -"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. -Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319." - -When did you receive this? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well---- - -Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she -called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is -a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. -They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses -and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and -told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, -was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, -but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that -right, as he indicated? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever -you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you -think it would be all right? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any -advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. -I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general -counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he -thinks you should do. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward. - -Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and -do that or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will -handle that aspect of it. - -Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened -to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to -about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened -to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do -anything like that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote Markham down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't -have any other questions at this time. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It -never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I -was going to get fired if I didn't get back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about -it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that -[referring to the telegram]. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD BAKER - -The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and -please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are -about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. BAKER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to -it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint -resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, -you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to -3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions -that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I -presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask -you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are -willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963? - -Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else? - -Mrs. BAKER. That's me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. -Donald S. Baker? - -Mrs. BAKER. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November -24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but -you had already been married at that time; is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. I married this year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964? - -Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley -on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the -assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is -that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Last year? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to -see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him -around the building? - -Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at -all? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in -connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what -you did? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at -approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front -of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President -waved and he got down---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the -motorcade came along? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what -you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front -of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call -it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in -front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not? - -Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in -front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with -some trees on it; is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a -triangular plot of grass. - -Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of -Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in -the street--Elm Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs -down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street -that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, -an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge -and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass. - -Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into -Stemmons Expressway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, -is that Main Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were -standing? - -Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we -were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the -building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas -School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that -the Texas School Book Depository is located? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I -thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the -pavement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is -that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise -came from when you first heard it? - -Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there -where he was--where the President's car was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time -you heard the first noise? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it -had gone when you heard the first shot? - -Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the -car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President? - -Mrs. BAKER. Not too well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had -already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard -the first shot; is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture -there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, -which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other -pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show -you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons -Freeway, Keep Right." - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign? - -Mrs. BAKER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing? - -Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were -stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, -I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the -bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther -out in the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this -thing hit the street near the sign? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. -354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along -the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. -Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing -going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little -grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the -Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by -this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward -the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that -looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me. - -Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there. - -Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first -sign? - -Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit -the street--what did it look like when you saw it? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked -just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a -firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to -get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it -were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the -sign. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or -somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you -saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near -the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on -the opposite side of the street; is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was? - -Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't -be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in -there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that -day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane? - -Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that -correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in -relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, -behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car? - -Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit -in the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand -side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just -immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right. - -Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? - -Mrs. BAKER. Three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots? - -Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming -from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there -directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the -underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that -runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus -train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the -plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind -there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and -we didn't see anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area -that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the -Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what -you mean? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street -that runs in front of the School Book Depository? - -Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the -triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running -down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside -the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; -is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see -anybody at all? - -Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around -the tracks working. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been -the assassin? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from -reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears -that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository -Building; is that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard -at the time? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it -didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come -from the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository -Building at all while you were standing there? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the -windows in that building? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you -gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some -man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you -came up and said he saw everything; is that so? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen? - -Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he -came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have -been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that -afternoon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all -this? - -Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission -Exhibit No. 354. - -Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular -spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from -the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit -No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had -been sitting? - -Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up -real high--I presume he was up there on top. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward -the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and -Commerce all come together? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps -the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from -the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see -these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down -here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually -go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce. - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or -did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the -Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza? - -Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't -sound like it was too far off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly -from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that -right? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot -you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out -the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this -object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. -Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, -if we can. - -Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I -guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle -around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository -Building. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere? - -Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm -Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm -Street toward the Dealey Plaza. - -Mrs. BAKER. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to -be another tree just down from the wall. - -Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign. - -Mrs. BAKER. I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the -corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository -Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it -hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and -I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it -just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of -our record? - -Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell -from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the -spot where the bullet hit? - -Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the -bullet hit? - -Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but -it was right in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No. -1, starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there -and there is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there -are two cars immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a -convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that -right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere -behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is -that right? - -Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area -and the trees that lie between Elm Street and the little street that -runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository, doesn't it? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, -where that thing might have hit the street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is. - -Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here -somewhere in this picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here? - -Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think it might -have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a -concrete divider somewhere here on Elm Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and -then there are concrete dividers here between Elm Street and Main -Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at Houston Street, -there is a curb on the side of Elm Street and that's all? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from Houston Street and go -right on down Elm Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the -second shot; is that correct? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that? - -Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we marked, -we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near the first -sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple -underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well, it is -very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 -was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from -the side of Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not -be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in -the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main -Street and Elm Street, then the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. -1 would be too far down toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right -place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, -if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm -Street and Main Street, this "X" is very close to the Triple Underpass. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the -street, did you? - -Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the Texas -School Book Depository Building--near the first sign? - -Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that -now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer -to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the -left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from -the plaza. - -Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these -were the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were -four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here -because there must have been another sign closer up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the -time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are -some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture -and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street -here. - -Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign. - -Mrs. BAKER. This one over here--the steps are already here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in Hudson -Exhibit No. 1 and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the -front left of Baker Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is actually in the -wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should -be further back on up here. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the School Book -Depository Building, and actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. -354, you can see the steps coming right down to Elm Street. - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, -and I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left -front foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and I -don't know--the sign would be here, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left -front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward -the Triple Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the -right-hand side of Elm Street? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you -saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a -bullet, it would have been the first shot? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the Texas -School Book Depository Building that day that you think might have -anything to do with the assassination? - -Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone -passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street -over in this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance -pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. This was -before the motorcade ever got to Houston Street--I would say onto Elm -Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this -ambulance come and pick up this person? - -Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge--5 minutes--about 5 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes -before the Presidential motorcade came? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you -remember? - -Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with -daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and -if he had to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I -couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's -when I had to be there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any -time? - -Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your -attention to a man standing in the doorway of the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him? - -Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the -picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway -of the building--of the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like -to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't -asked you, I have no other questions at this point. - -Mrs. BAKER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS - -The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am -an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your -testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by -President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the -Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present -if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all -right. You are entitled to 3 days' notice and you may actually have -gotten 3 days' notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared -to go ahead, since you are here? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days' notice -because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an -additional week, so I had plenty of time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they -use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a -news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? - -Mr. ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Approximately 26-1/2 Years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and -have a little experience in the area of photographic work? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I would assume so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir? - -Mr. ALTGENS. April 28, 1919. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas? - -Mr. ALTGENS. All except my service connected time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you -were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that -correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the -taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what -happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of -November the 22d? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I -arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 -a.m. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad -tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ALTGENS. My original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of -the caravan with the Dallas skyline in the background and the triple -overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when -I arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two -uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me -and asked me if I was a railroad employee and I told him, "No," and -I showed him my press tag and told him I had a Department of Public -Safety ID card showing I was connected with the AP--Associated Press, -and he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but this is private property. It belongs -to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this -property." And, I explained to him that this was a public event and I -thought I would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he -says, "No. This is private property and no one but railroad personnel -are permitted in this area." - -This is a little extraneous but I wanted to point this out, and I said, -"Well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this -area because I see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and I -see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on Stemmons," -and he said, "Yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." So, -then, I had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so -I proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is -just behind the Book Depository Building and proceeded on down to Elm -to the corner of Elm and Houston, crossed Elm going--is that east or -south--I guess it is south on Houston. Yes; south on Houston over to -Main and Houston. That seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make -any pictures. Then I could, by advance planning, get away from that -spot after I had made a picture or two and run across the Dealey Plaza -and catch the caravan again down on Elm as it proceeded toward the -triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my -planning. - -Well, I was at that site when the Presidential caravan arrived at that -intersection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That intersection being the intersection of Houston and -Elm Streets? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Houston and Main. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Houston and Main? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Houston and Main. When the caravan reached Houston -and Main I made at least one shot--one picture--I don't have the roll -of film with me now so I don't know exactly, but I know I had made an -additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down Main Street -prior to that, but I got the one picture with the President waving -into the camera. Mrs. Kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as I -got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it -off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and I did not get her -looking into the camera, but I got the Governor and Mrs. Connally and -the President with the President waving into the camera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was as they turned? - -Mr. ALTGENS. This was as they turned into the sunlight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Turning into Houston Street; is that right? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Turning right--headed toward the Book Depository Building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. - -Mr. ALTGENS. I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra -lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in -front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one -picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, -you were along Elm Street; is that correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I ran across and reached up into--well, the curb -area on the west side of Elm Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you -exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that -would be of any help to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you -Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been -discussing. - -Mr. ALTGENS. This is the Book Depository Building, correct? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.) - -Mr. ALTGENS. This would put me at approximately this area here, -which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the -head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the -side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street -which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I that approximately where you were standing? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning -from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across -this Dealey Plaza? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Down this way; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Along the lawn part. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And at that point did you take another picture? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that -sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently -my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the -shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that -much of course--at that time I figured it was nothing more than a -firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of -such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you -were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the -car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who -counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of -pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for -the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. -There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the -head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree -of certainty. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the -damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware -at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I -looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over -here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over here," you indicate what? - -Mr. ALTGENS. The left side of the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be approximately the intersection of Elm -Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas -School Book Depository Building; isn't that right? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were -a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of -accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any -firearms, so I looked back up in this area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of -Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from -behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as -he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if -at the time--well, he was in a position--sort of immobile. He wasn't -upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just -lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something -like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on -down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head -in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated -to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the -fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on -the left side--all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or -face--suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, -meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time -did I know for certain where the shot came from. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you didn't see who fired it? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential -car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me -back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the -President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good -closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that -it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, -and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far -as I got with my camera. - -Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President -had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I -heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration -to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I -saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping -to make. - -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I -stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret -Service man stepped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went -to Mrs. Kennedy's aid and then after that I immediately crossed the -street and once again I was looking to see if I could find anything in -this area of Elm and Houston Streets that would suggest to me where the -shot came from. - -Moreover, I was interested in knowing whether or not somebody else had -been struck by a bullet or one of the bullets in this area. I saw that -no one else had been hit. I did notice after I got on this side of the -street, that would be on the opposite side of the Presidential car from -where I was standing originally, which would be the left side of the -car from where I was standing--looking up toward the building--I saw -people looking out of windows. I saw a couple of Negroes looking out of -a window which I later learned was the floor below where the gun--where -the sniper's nest was supposed to have been, but it didn't register -on me at the time that they were looking from an area that the bullet -might have come from. There was utter confusion at the time I crossed -the street. The Secret Service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns -that went racing up this little incline and I thought---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you speak of "little incline" that means the -area--the little incline on the grassy area here by this concrete -structure across Elm Street toward the School Book Depository Building, -is that part of Dealey Plaza too over in here, this concrete structure, -or is Dealey Plaza only the name ascribed to this area here between Elm -Street and Commerce Street? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I really don't know, sir--I don't know whether this is -considered part of the Dealey Plaza or whether this is just something -extra as you might have for dressing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The part we are referring to that we are not just sure if -it is a part of Dealey Plaza lies between Elm Street and the railroad -tracks that run behind it over here and from the railroad tracks that -go over the triple underpass, and this little grassy area that you -have just mentioned is just between the area formed by Elm Street and -the street that runs directly in front of the School Book Depository -Building; is that correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -I started up the incline with--or, after the officers, because they -were moving well ahead of me and I was moving behind them thinking -perhaps if they had the assassin cornered I wanted a picture, but -before I had gotten over one-quarter of the way up the incline, I met -the officers coming back and I presumed that they were just chasing -shadows, so to speak, because there was no assassin in the area -apparently, but I didn't learn the location of the sniper's nest until -I was en route out to Parkland Hospital to continue my assignment and I -heard it on the radio, that the assassin's nest was in the sixth floor -window of the Book Depository Building. - -After that I made a good look through this area to see that no one -else had been hit. I noticed the couple that were on the ground over -here with their children, I saw them when they went down and they were -in the area and laid there some time after the Presidential car had -disappeared. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They threw themselves on the ground in this grassy area -that I have just described previously where you ran across after this -last shot? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; but they were not hit. I looked at them and they -weren't hit by a bullet, so I took another long look around before I -started my dash back to the office, and as it turned out, my report was -the first that our service had on the assassination and my pictures -were the only pictures we had available for a period of about 24 hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 203 and I ask you if that is not the first picture that you -took after you left the intersection of Main and Houston and crossed -Dealey Plaza and stood on the side of Elm Street across from the Texas -School Book Depository Book Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that as the picture which you took? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the individuals depicted in that -picture? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously, I believe, that the first shot -that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the -picture, is that right? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was -simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just -the way it happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you first heard this shot, did you see any reaction -either on the part of the President or anyone else that indicated they -might have been hit by this shot? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; and as a matter of fact, I did not know that -Governor Connally had been hit until one of our reporters got the -information out at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As the Presidential car went down Elm Street, did you -observe Governor Connally's movements at all, did you see what he was -doing? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; my attention was primarily on the President and -Mrs. Kennedy and I just wasn't paying too much attention about the -other people in the car after what I saw happen. Of course, my concern -was about the President and I just wasn't paying too much attention to -others in the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were -no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which -you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203; -is that correct? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I did not--you see--all of these shots sounded -the same. If you heard one you would recognize the other shots and -these were all the same. It was a pop that I don't believe I could -identify it any other way than as a firecracker and this particular -picture was made at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by -me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't think that there could have been any other -shots fired prior to that time that you wouldn't have heard, you were -standing right there and you would have heard them, would you not? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sure I would have--yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified that you were standing perhaps no -more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that -you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the -President was hit in the head? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how many shots there -were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were -supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wouldn't want to say--I don't want to guess, -because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined -to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I -think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot--I -can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least -one shot in between. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At least one? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is -possible there might have been another one--I don't really know, but -two, I can really account for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that's the first one and the last one? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection as to the spacing of these -shots? - -Mr. ALTGENS. They seemed to be at almost regular intervals and they -were quick. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and -the last shot? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, let's see--I would have to figure it out on a speed -basis because they were going at approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour -downhill and I would say that all the shots were fired within the space -of less than 30 seconds. That's an estimate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far away was the Presidential car when you took the -picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203--you must have -had your camera focused? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was about 30 feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you -at No. 3 on that picture. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear -to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission -Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at -that time--I'm not saying it wasn't--I mean, just what does it look -like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is--I want to -know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is -Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head -hit, did you move down the street at all? - -Mr. ALTGENS. May I ask you a question in return? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. - -Mr. ALTGENS. I have no reason to doubt that by relating other -testimony, that you have come up with this figure 1 as being an exact -location as to when the Presidential car was struck by the bullet--the -first bullet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, no; not at all. These figures numbers 1, 2, and 3 -don't indicate where the shots hit. They are for entirely different -purposes. Figure No. 1 on this picture, Commission Exhibit No. 354, -indicates where someone was standing--that's all that indicates. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I will have to ask you this question, then, sir, -because as you will know by looking at this picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 203? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Excuse me--picture 203--there is a tree way behind the -Presidential car. Now, figure 1 is placed up in front of this tree, -which means that figure 1 would have been behind the car at the time -the President received the first shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; referring to Exhibit No. 354. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, that has no significance because these numbers -have nothing to do with the place where the car was when the President -was hit. - -Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sorry--I just misinterpreted it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I can see why you could assume that, because as you look -here at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you see 1, 2, 3, and 4 spaced down -Elm Street and you did infer that that's the location the President's -car was when it was hit. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which is not right because those numbers do not indicate -that in any way whatsoever--they are not related to that notion at all. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved -at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and -back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either -side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but -if you will look at this picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit No. 203. - -Mr. ALTGENS. You will see by then referring to picture No. 354, that -the Presidential car was well down Elm Street in front of a tree that -is located in a grassy area which is just off of Elm Street and just -off of the street that runs down in front of the Book Depository -Building, which would indicate that the point at which he was struck, -the location of the car, would be approximately 30 feet in front of the -position from which I made this picture. Does that make sense? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at -a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to -a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy -area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. -Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took -Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot -was fired? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot -was fired. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But during that period of time the car moved much more -than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved -quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time -the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 -understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's -car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the -car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved -yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside -the President's car when he was hit in the head. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I was about 15 feet from it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it was almost directly in front of you as it went -down the street; isn't that right? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony -the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time -you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, -and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the -last shot was fired? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing -photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and -while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is -a plus or minus area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure -that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured -on my camera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away? - -Mr. ALTGENS. But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's -exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my -camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 16 -feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 -feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, -if you will let me say something further here about this picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, -this approximate position where I was standing and step off the -distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some -marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or -measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the -markings on my camera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The important thing is--it's not all that important -as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the -picture--the thing that I want to establish is that you are absolutely -sure that you took Exhibit No. 203 at about the time the first shot was -fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind that there were -no shots fired after you saw the President hit in the head. - -Mr. ALTGENS. That is correct; in both cases. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is clear from your testimony that the third -shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot -and the fourth shot, but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did -strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was -made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's -not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to -say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, what were you going to suggest--go ahead. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of -course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of -shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't -be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough -damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew -he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, -because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious -conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the -President was struck in the head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, of course, you are aware of the fact that there is -an individual portrayed in Exhibit No. 203, standing right in the door -of the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just to the right of the No. A in the picture? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are aware that he has been thought to resemble Lee -Harvey Oswald by certain people and it has been my understanding that -a newspaper reporter by the name of Bonafede called you and discussed -this picture with you? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to whether or not that man -might be Lee Oswald or some other man? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I have never seen the man before in my life and -have seen no one that looks like him since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this newspaper reporter tell you that it was Oswald, -or that it was somebody else--did you have any conversations with him -about that? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Oh, yes, sir; as a matter of fact I had two calls from -him. I never met the man Bonafede, personally, but I had two calls -from him and he indicated to me he was writing a story around this -picture which showed this controversial figure standing in the -doorway of picture No. 203. He was asking me if I knew him, if I had -any information that I might be able to give him in connection with -this, inasmuch as he was doing a story on it, and naturally I had no -information to give him in that connection, but I don't know the man -and I have never had an assignment down at the bookstore before or -after the shooting so I have had no occasion to meet anyone down there -in the building either before or after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this -point, Mr. Altgens. Can you think of anything else you think might -be significant--let me ask you this--while you were standing there -alongside of Elm Street and you heard this noise that you later deduced -was a shot, after that time did you have any occasion to look up at the -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything up there? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I said earlier--when I crossed the street, my -vision prior to that was sort of obstructed because of the growth of -trees in that area and me being down in a low spot, I couldn't see the -whole building too well, but after crossing the street, I looked up to -that building as well as the other buildings back on Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I remember you testified about that and you said you -saw those two Negroes? - -Mr. ALTGENS. I saw the two Negroes but I at that time lent no -significance to that until I later heard where the shots were coming -from and also since that time I have heard other people say they saw -them too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which window they were in, approximately, -where on the fifth floor? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, they looked to me to be on the floor below, but -they were leaning out as though they were looking for something. I -do remember that, but since they had nothing in their hands I didn't -feel that the shot was coming from their particular area. I saw no -rifle at any time although I was looking for one and I reported it -to my Associated Press that the President was apparently shot by a -high-powered rifle, that's the way we carried it on the wire--credited -to my statement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw these Negroes up there, were they in the -center of the building or toward the part of the building closer to the -triple underpass or toward Houston Street, or just where were they on -the face here of the School Book Depository Building as it faces out on -Elm Street? And Main Street? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I recall, they were down here close to Houston -Street. They weren't directly under the window that was later described -as being the area of the assassin's nest, but I think they were in a -pair of windows that was maybe the next set of windows over, which was -a floor below. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over," you mean down towards the triple -underpass? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that they were closer to the corner of the building -that is near the intersection of Elm and Houston than they were towards -the triple underpass end of the building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; there were also a number of people looking out of--I -believe this building here [indicating on photograph]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the building immediately across Houston Street -from the School Book Depository? - -Mr. ALTGENS. But--they were scattered and once again, I couldn't see -anything over there that suggested to me that they might have a rifle, -and, of course, the buildings here which are the county records and -courthouse buildings--those windows--I think had nobody in them because -I believe they are closed and locked. I'm not real certain of that, but -I don't recall seeing anyone at those windows over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicate then the building that it catercornered -across the street on Houston Street toward Main Street from the School -Book Depository? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the intersection of Houston Street and Elm as it -comes down and goes past the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after you went back up here and to the -intersection on Elm and Houston and after the motorcade came, did you -have occasion to look down toward the railroad tracks going across the -triple underpass? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody down there? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; as a matter of fact--let me go back to my -position at Houston and Main. I was at that intersection approximately -at 11:30, which meant I had close to an hour wait before the caravan -was due in that area, and along about noon--of course, there were some -other things that happened--there was a man who had an epileptic fit -along about that area there, a young fellow approximately 19 or 20 -years old, and I was standing over here at the intersection next to a -sergeant's motorcycle--it was a tricycle motorcycle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the intersection of Main and Houston that you -were standing near? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and the time was approximately 12:15, I would -imagine--I say 12:15 and as I relate the events you will see why I say -that, because this sergeant at the motorcycle called for an ambulance -and an ambulance came and picked the man up and as the ambulance was -leaving through the triple overpass, underneath the triple overpass, I -saw the Presidential caravan, the red lights and so on that lead the -caravan, coming on to Main Street off of Harwood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Further up Main Street from where you were standing? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; clear up at the other end of town because Main -Street goes uphill and that made it easy for me to spot the red lights -indicating the Presidential caravan then was starting down Main Street, -and along about the time the sergeant called for the ambulance, I was -looking back up here at the triple overpass and I remarked to the -sergeant, I said, "Look at all those people up there on the triple -overpass." I would estimate about a dozen were up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the railroad tracks immediately over Elm--immediately -over the triple underpass? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and I said, "I wonder what the heck all those -people are doing up there when they wouldn't let me up there to make -pictures?" And he said, "Well, I suppose they are railroad people." I -said, "Well, if they are permitted up there, it seems like they would -let me up there just to make a picture." He said, "Well, you know we've -got our orders too." So, I just dropped it at that time, but there were -at that time--now, this was prior to the Presidential arrival in the -Main-Houston Street area that I noticed these people up here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Up on the triple underpass? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony -down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm -Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was -shot--the car passed in front of me--I stepped into the curb area and -made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of -Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the -triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice whether there were still people on it at -that time? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; there were people up on it and I looked in that -direction, but not for a firearm--I didn't really expect any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why was that? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Because as I said before--the way the bullet impact hit -the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in -order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to -find anything up in that area, so that is why I was concentrating my -observation back in this part, back in the Main--excuse me--back in the -Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see anybody standing on the overpass with -a firearm of any kind? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Altgens, -unless you can think of something else that you think would be -significant that I haven't thought to ask you about, I think we can -terminate the deposition. - -Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I can't think of anything--it seems like we have -covered it pretty well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in. - -Mr. ALTGENS. You are welcome, sir--I was glad to do it and I hope that -whatever I've had to say will be of some help. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think it will. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Let me tell you this off the record, because it doesn't -matter, but you notice Mr. Switzer, the FBI agent that came out--he and -his partner--and talked with me, he brought up this Bonafede to me--the -name and then he asked me if I knew somebody else, a woman columnist in -a Chicago newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? - -Mr. ALTGENS. And then showed me a clipping where she too had referred -to me in the taking of a picture and I also received a telephone call -from a John Gold who is, I guess, a correspondent connected with the -London Daily News. I got a call from him on the Thursday night about 11 -or 11:30 at night, asking me what that story was all about because---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Magy Daley story or the Bonafede story? - -Mr. ALTGENS. No; this was the Bonafede story, because they had put it -on television--as a teaser to sell publications and the public on the -upcoming Sunday--the Sunday publication. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the New York Tribune. - -Mr. ALTGENS. And gee, I didn't know what to tell the guy because I -didn't know Bonafede had written, but Bonafede talked with me. I asked -him and I said, "Are you going to quote me on anything I say?" And, he -says, "Well, if I do quote you, I'll call you back and ask you for your -permission," and I said, Swell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did quote you and he didn't call you back? - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I got a copy of the thing--I didn't gather from -the article he was quoting me on anything in particular other than to -say that I was a witness and I hadn't been called to testify before -the Commission or questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service, but I -don't think that he really tied any information to me in the course of -writing the story, but it was real strange the way the thing unfolded. -I had tried previously to get my bureau chief to give me permission to -notify the Warren Commission or someone to let them know I had been in -the area, not that my testimony would be of much value, but still if it -could be of just a little bit of help I wanted to do what I thought was -right, and my boss never got permission for me to do that, and that's -why I never did step forward, because I had no authority. Really, I -didn't feel that I could act on my own. I wanted to wait until someone -gave me authority to do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your testimony has been helpful to the extent that -it helps to establish the timing of the shots and I'm glad you gave it -to us. - -Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wish I had been able to give this information to -you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because 6 months or so -later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and I hate to -see it that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much for coming. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES - -The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 2 p.m., on July 23, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HOLMES. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you have previously been examined by -one of the attorneys on the staff, and I assume they advised you of the -basis on which we are conducting the examination and the rights that -you have in the situation, so I won't bother to go through that again. - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the chief postal inspector? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; it is just postal inspector. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Stationed with the post office here in Dallas; is that -correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I just have a few questions that I wanted to ask you -that have come up since we took your testimony the last time. One of -the things I would like to know about, if you have any information on -it, is how long it ordinarily takes a parcel post shipment to come to -Dallas from Chicago. - -Mr. HOLMES. It would depend on the time of day it was mailed, and -whether it was mailed just prior to the next most expeditious dispatch. -But I would say certainly not over, well, it would be in Dallas the -next day. But whether it would get to a box--that's right, it would be -available at his box--should be the next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, this question relates specifically to the -shipment of the rifle. - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Shipped from Chicago and addressed to Mr. Hidell at Post -Office Box 2915 here in Dallas, and you say that it generally would -have been available at the post office here in Dallas the day following -its delivery to the post office in Chicago? - -Mr. HOLMES. I have no idea when it was mailed there, but it should -have been available here the next day. If it were to be delivered to a -street address, it would be the second day, because it would not make -morning delivery. But to a post office box, he should have. Of course, -he had told me he didn't come to that box too regularly, so there is no -assurance of when it was picked up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as the possibility is concerned, it would have -been available here at the post office box the following morning from -Chicago? - -Mr. HOLMES. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After it has been received here in Dallas, as I -understand the procedure, a notice would be put in the post office box -indicating that a package was being held there in the post office; is -that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. There is a regular card, when the package is too large to -go in the box, or if it is c.o.d., or insured, or registered. However, -this was an ordinary parcel. It was not insured or c.o.d. There would -be a card for him put in the box, and he would have to pick it up at a -window. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about as far as Los Angeles is concerned, from Los -Angeles to Dallas? How long would it take a parcel post to reach Dallas -from Los Angeles? - -Mr. HOLMES. At least 2 days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it possibly be longer than 2 days? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much longer, do you think? How about on the average, -do you have any idea? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; it depends on the time of mailing. It is 2 days' -train run from Los Angeles here, and if it happens to catch an early -dispatch, it would be in here the morning of the third day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From Chicago it is only a 1-day train run, is that -correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be here, if it had an early dispatch, on the -morning of the following day? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is that an application for a post office -box comes in three separate parts. Do you have---- - -(Mr. Holmes hands paper to attorney.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have, in fact, handed me a sample of such an -application. - -Mr. HOLMES. I thought you might want one, so I brought one along. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was very good, and we will mark this as Holmes -Exhibit No. 1-A on your deposition of July 23, 1964. I have put my -initials on the corner after I have marked it. Would you initial it, -too, for the purpose of identification? - -(Mr. Holmes initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the ordinary procedure that is followed when a -box is rented and this form is used? - -Mr. HOLMES. The form is completed, usually by the applicant, and it -must be signed by the applicant, even if an employee does complete it. -This portion of the--I don't know how you want to designate it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will number them portions 1, 2, and 3. - -Mr. HOLMES. All right, part 1 of this application is simply the -instructions on a combination box, and instructions to the patron -is torn off, and he keeps it or they throw it away. Portions 2 and -3 are completed, too. 2 gives the applicant's name, the name of his -corporation or firm he represents, if applicable, the kind of business, -the business address, the home address, and the place for his signature -and the date. On the third portion is a box for him to indicate whether -he wants all mail in the box, or just whether he wants some other -disposition and so on, and a place for name of person entitled to -receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself, and he -fills in that. These two portions then remain together in the file of -the post office where he made application. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is portions 2 and 3? - -Mr. HOLMES. Until he relinquishes the box. They pull this out and -endorse it so the box has been closed, and the date and they tear off 3 -and throw it away. It has no more purpose. That is what happened on box -2915. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They have thrown part 3 away? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; as it so happens, even though they closed the box -in New Orleans, they still had part 3 and it showed that the mail -for Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell was good in the box. They hadn't -complied with regulations. They still had it there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a lucky thing. - -Mr. HOLMES. We wish they had here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now is this regulation that says section 3 should be torn -off and thrown away, is that a general regulation of the Post Office -Department? - -Mr. HOLMES. It is in the Post Office Manual Instructions to employees; -yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no way, as I understand it, to tell from -the records maintained, as far as you know anyway, who was authorized -to receive mail at Post Office Box 2915 that Oswald had while he was -here in Dallas before he went to New Orleans in April of 1963; is that -correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Other than Oswald himself and his name on the application. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. - -Mr. HOLMES. Now he did tell me in personal interrogation that no one -was permitted to get mail in that box but him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He said that same thing about the box in New Orleans, -too, didn't he? - -Mr. HOLMES. He did at first, and then---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you showed him portion three of the application and -then he changed his story? - -Mr. HOLMES. I said how about Marina Oswald, and he said, well, she was -my wife. What is wrong with that? And I said how about A. J. Hidell, -and he said I don't know anything about that. And I said look here. And -he said, well, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now supposing that Oswald had not in fact authorized A. -J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package -came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post -Office Box 2915, what procedure would be followed when that package -came in? - -Mr. HOLMES. They would put the notice in the box. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Regardless of whose name was associated with the box? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a -box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same -name--well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too -strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for -other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little -bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how -good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that the package would have come in addressed to -Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the -post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail -from it? - -Mr. HOLMES. Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way -around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people -that box the mail, and in theory--I am surmising now, because nobody -knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The -man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is -no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, -"I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so -and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and -whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the -package, and that is all there is to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification -because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was -entitled to it? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is very possible that that in fact is what happened in -this case? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is in theory. I would assume that is what happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the other hand, it is also possible that Oswald had -actually authorized Hidell to receive mail through the box? - -Mr. HOLMES. Could have been. And on the other hand, he had this -identification card of Hidell's in his billfold, which he could have -produced and showed the window clerk. Either way, he got it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I believe I am correct in my understanding that -when Mr. Belin took your testimony previously, that you did mark as -exhibits the various forms that Oswald had filled out here in the Post -Office Department in Dallas; isn't that right? - -Mr. HOLMES. You mean the box rent application? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. HOLMES. I have long since given them to the FBI. However, I -endorsed them at the time I gave them to the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I can't remember. - -Mr. HOLMES. I will show you a photocopy maybe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The basic thrust of my question is that you have given -the originals of the documents to the FBI? - -Mr. HOLMES. I have the receipts, except for Ruby's box, which nobody -ever asked me for, and I still have them. That is Ruby's box at the -Terminal Annex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is not a part of the record so far. We should -mark it as a part of the record now. Are you required to keep this in -your records? - -Mr. HOLMES. If you will give me a receipt for it. I have a photocopy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't I -just mark the photocopy and you keep the original? - -Mr. HOLMES. Okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the photocopy, and I would like to have -you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark -that as Holmes Exhibit No. 2-A on your deposition of July 23, 1064, a -photocopy of a post office box application in the name of Jack Ruby, -dated November 1, 1963. Post Office Box No. 5475, and as I understand -it, this was an application that was made at the Terminal Annex here in -Dallas, is that correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any way in which we can tell from just looking -at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from -the Terminal Annex? - -Mr. HOLMES. The box number categories are set out for each station that -comes within that bracket. The applications don't tell you what post -office it is from. It might be from San Antonio. But I don't know why. -What are your initials and name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. W. J. L., Wesley J. Liebeler. - -Mr. HOLMES. How do you spell your last name? - -Mr. LIEBELER (spelling). L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. - -Mr. HOLMES. Thank you [handing another card to Mr. Liebeler]. I will -explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it -is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office -Department Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order. - -Mr. HOLMES. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a -forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret -it, Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 -in Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on -this box to this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, -he is again forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second -forwarding. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that instructions had been given to -forward from box 2915 here in Dallas? - -Mr. HOLMES. Direct without going through---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that all together, he had first -issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in -Dallas to box 30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that -mail was to be forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex., -and that is dated October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks -appearing on this form. There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 -on both sides, and there is also a postmark in New Orleans, which is -difficult to read, but it is sometime in October. Now you suggested -perhaps October 11, 1963. What do you interpret happened with regard -to this notice, Post Office Department Form 3546? Can you tell from -looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have -first prepared this form? - -Mr. HOLMES. That would have been prepared in New Orleans and dropped -in the mailbox. He would have prepared that at a station, because they -have filled the front in and crossed it out. In fact, they hand these -out at the stations. He has gone into the station probably where he -had this box. In the normal course of the patron's activities he would -have gone into that station where that box is and said, "I want my mail -forwarded." All right, fill this out. - -It looks like they might have filled it out for him. It doesn't look -too much like his writing. But they would have filled this out to show -that mail from this box should not be sent to New Orleans, but sent to -Irving, so the post office would send that up to Dallas where this box -is at the main office, and they would have that on file here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Box 2915, you mean? That address here? - -Mr. HOLMES. Here is a photocopy of box 2915 application, and it will -show it was closed on May 14, 1963, which is this red figure up here. -So when they got that in here in Dallas, they would have put this red -mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then -they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some -other instructions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have -a photostatic of this form we have been talking about? - -Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me mark this original one for the record then, if I -may. - -Mr. HOLMES. That is all right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this Post Office Department Form 3546, -which has been marked "Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A on deposition of July 23, -1964," and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of -identification. - -(Mr. Holmes initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you some more questions about Holmes -Exhibit No. 3, which is postmarked, as we have indicated, October 16, -in Dallas, and also bears a postmark in New Orleans which I think is -October 11. - -Mr. HOLMES. My best educated guess is the 11th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me come bluntly to the point. My problem is this. -Oswald wasn't in New Orleans on October 11. He was in Dallas. - -Mr. HOLMES. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been -mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could -have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed -it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, -Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it. - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans -one correctly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an -October postmark. - -Mr. HOLMES. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because -the hours are down there and are different from that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an -inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald -filled out a form 3575? - -Mr. HOLMES. That is the regular forwarding order. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or -September 25? - -Mr. HOLMES. September 24. - -Mr. LIEBELER. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed -on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to -them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office -Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you -can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we -have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no -endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, -and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says. - -Mr. HOLMES. If that were completed in some other post office, they -wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence -that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it? - -Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his -handwriting. - -Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office -filled this form out? - -Mr. HOLMES. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, -long-distance telephone call. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they could have done that from the records they -had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post -Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box -30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of -course, on September 24? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile. - -Mr. HOLMES. It is an original card. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the -original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A. - -I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic -problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I -appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, -Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that -you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that -correct? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have -come in contact with in this business. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Between us and the FBI? - -Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now it may be as you suggested---- - -Mr. HOLMES. Except Ruby's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have given us a copy? - -Mr. HOLMES. I have given you a good clear photocopy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. If you do come across any other papers in your -files---- - -Mr. HOLMES. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. -attorney in Dallas, Tex.]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER - -The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before -the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee -Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not -asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell -Wesley Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, -who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey -Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to -Dallas; isn't that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You testified in Washington that on that particular -morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into -the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that -package in the car; isn't that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you described that package and you told us about what -you saw in detail at that time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the -one you saw on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into -the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the -package he had on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that -package any other time or at any other place? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for -coming in. - -Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH - -The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SMITH. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I -am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your -testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by -Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution -of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to -have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of -your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you -this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to -go ahead without an attorney, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational -background? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the -second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary -school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school -in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas -Police Department? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a -uniformed officer, patrolman? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, -or just what has been the nature of your work? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to -traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the -vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and -what you were told. - -Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November -22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions -that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came -through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the -lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all -I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at -the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in -the office? - -Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were -there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence -at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken -down? - -Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the -men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that -was my instructions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or -delivered orally? - -Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the -captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places -and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that -correct? - -Mr. SMITH. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the -motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the -same as the ones that you were given? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the -motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage -in general crowd control activities? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about -scanning buildings? - -Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing -to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific -instructions on that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what -did you do? - -Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and -it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At -approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had -an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main -and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I -stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent -to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with -this fellow that had the epileptic fit? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of -it before this even. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a -motorcycle or had a car? - -Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think -he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man -when I arrived at the scene. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called -and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and -Houston Streets? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston? - -Mr. SMITH. Three of us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men? - -Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his -initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there? - -Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the -hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes -until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in -the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic -up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from -that you held up? - -Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into -the intersection of Elm and Houston? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and -held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston -Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm -Street? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows -on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which -the shots were fired? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see -them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must -admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm -Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston -Street? - -Mr. SMITH. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the -Texas School Book Depository Building at all? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as -far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that -connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that -particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were -told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is -marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School -Book Depository Building in there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, -and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off -opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book -Depository Building, and you were standing to the east? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston? - -Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right -at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back -in the vicinity of the automobile? - -Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of -approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went -by. Is that approximately correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple -underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the -immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a -building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the -School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is? - -Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of -that building? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that -building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the -building to your left. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, -because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I -know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything -unusual. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? -That is the county building? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing -the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point -where you were standing? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or -closed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a -good vantage point from which to observe these windows? - -Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the -building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets -at all from where you were standing? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great -difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and -you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, -tell us what happened at that point. - -Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to -watch the President as the motorcade went by? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to -make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also -to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the -shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the -shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, -because it was such a ricochet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just -in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the -bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the -concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street -that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is -that right? - -Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in -the parking lot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back -from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the -parking lot and looked around? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars -and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was -some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when -I got there. - -I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the -shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, -this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. -Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he -showed me who he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. -In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I -started over here in this particular section. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the -triple underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came -from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But -it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner -here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward -the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on -the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book -Depository Building. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have -come from up in that area? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of -it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the -shots in the area. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large -buildings around the area where the shots were fired from? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the -railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you -heard the shots? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the -bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School -Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and -then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to -look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can -remember? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up -there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area -down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main -railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find -anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area? - -Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through -automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back -there; is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy -sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said -they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all -the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the -front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I -and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or -out until he was passed by the chief. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School -Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did -thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other -officers? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into -them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there. - -Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around -there, and I went back to the building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that -building, do you remember? - -Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard? - -Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those -two men? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was -Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let -anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order? - -Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just -about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door -and not let anyone in or out? - -Mr. SMITH. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. -I don't remember; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front -door? - -Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the -back door? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is -where you stayed? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get -some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there -for now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department -that went into the building? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service -agents around? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the -Dallas office of the Secret Service? - -Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out -of the building, or in the area at all? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing -there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of -significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked -you about? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only -let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have -any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI -agents; were there some of those? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post? - -Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I -don't recall who the officer was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you -can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had -set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee -and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there -that evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have -anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit? - -Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I -saw him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture? - -Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the -bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall -their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre -that they thought might have been the one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on -Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area -here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the -buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes -and checking the cars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three -streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under -the triple underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the -intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then -turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the -assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from -going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering -now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and -gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, -there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is -there not? - -Mr. SMITH. What do you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks -here. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the -three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? -Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. SMITH. It is back off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the -trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and -crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under -the triple underpass? - -Mr. SMITH. They merge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the -motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to -the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart? - -Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you -stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that -you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main -Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the -situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have -seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think -the Commission should know. - -Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I -appreciate your cooperation. - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WELCOME EUGENE BARNETT - -The testimony of Welcome Eugene Barnett was taken at 3:50 p.m., on July -23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? Do -you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BARNETT. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney for the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony -by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive -Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress -No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission governing the taking -of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want -one, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know you -did not get the 3 days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we -had, and you were just advised of it this morning, I believe. I assume, -however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead -with your testimony without having an attorney. - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mr. BARNETT. Welcome Eugene Barnett. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? - -Mr. BARNETT. July 12, 1932, New Hope, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are apparently a uniformed officer of the Dallas -Police Department, isn't that right? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Dallas police? - -Mr. BARNETT. Eight and a half years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were assigned to the area -of Elm and Houston Streets on November 22, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you received instructions to go -there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? -Would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words? - -Mr. BARNETT. We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to -be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one -was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for -people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep -the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. -Then when the President came by, I heard three shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back, you got to the area around 10 o'clock; -is that right? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go when you got there? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other officers? - -Mr. BARNETT. Who were the other officers? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BARNETT. J. D. Smith, and another officer named Smith. I don't know -his initials. E. L., I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got -there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was -supposed to do? - -Mr. BARNETT. We divided our duties. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you do that? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got -on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over -to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be -ready. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a -picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--Commission Exhibit -No. 354. - -Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here -in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not? - -Mr. BARNETT. I was right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 1? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until -the motorcade arrived? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop -the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop -traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, -and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the -Depository Building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty -much into Houston Street? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To stop the traffic that was coming? - -Mr. BARNETT. South on Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. South on Houston Street? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; Elm Street is so wide, and I helped these -officers here stop this traffic here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have written the No. 4 on here before and it is kind -of hard to read. You also helped to stop the traffic that was coming -down here in the area of No. 4, which would have been the traffic on -Elm Street? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was standing right about this position right -here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right about No. 8? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically, were you given any instructions when -you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the -windows of the buildings around that area? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always -do. It is understood that you have the buildings to watch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But there were no specific instructions given to any of -the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about -watching the windows in the area? - -Mr. BARNETT. I don't see any use in being instructed on that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, regardless of that fact---- - -Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to -the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on -the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building; -were you not? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before -the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency? - -Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few -minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part -of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building -were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the -building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no -windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the -President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over -and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, -so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade -came? - -Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got -this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here, -instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see -the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here -[pointing]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the -intersection? - -Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I -was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small -boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from -Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. -9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that -right? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. BARNETT. Three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were -standing? - -Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides -the shots? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The -sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when -each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there -would be nothing else until the next shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President -when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, -but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was -ducking then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, -you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see -the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks? - -Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall? - -Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to -where they came from? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them? - -Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a -firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the -whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from? - -Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But -none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if -a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded -high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from -up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the -windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason. -And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And -I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building. -To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were -coming from that building? - -Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book -Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner? - -Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching -for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, -and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to -the door. - -I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could -see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the -building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You -thought they had been fired from the top of the building? - -Mr. BARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to -the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the -fire escape? - -Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking -up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side -of the building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, -or any movement on top of the building? - -Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building? - -Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching -the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the -building and I saw officers going west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the -building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one -watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there -was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around -to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. -Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here -searching. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our -Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming -back toward me, started back toward me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was -probably 2-1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, -my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and -asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front -and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that -time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a -construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection -up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the -window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and -ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the -back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took -him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, -at the door there with one of the other officers, J. D. Smith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't actually go into the building at the time? - -Mr. BARNETT. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot -was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from -going in and out? - -Mr. BARNETT. It was around 2-1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2-1/2 or 3 -minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From the time the last shot was fired until the time you -were standing at that front door? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you let anybody out of the building after you got -there? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; until they were authorized. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and -out? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, -county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building -were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought -to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that -was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let -them out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it was possible that people could have left the -building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and -Officer Smith stationed yourselves there? - -Mr. BARNETT. When I went to the door to get the name of the building, -there were people going in and out then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There were? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was as quickly as 2-1/2 minutes from the -time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? -Do you think it was that quick? - -Mr. BARNETT. I believe it was 2-1/2 minutes probably from the time I -ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes. Then -it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So your recollection is that it was fairly short order -that you got to the front door? - -Mr. BARNETT. Three minutes at the most. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post -yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else? - -Mr. BARNETT. Sergeant Howard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You remained there at the door for how long? - -Mr. BARNETT. Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11:30 to 3--close to 12:30 to 3. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At which time you were relieved from duty? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; from that position I had to go back to my -regular assignment at Commerce and Akard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, -on television? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all? - -Mr. BARNETT. None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that -intersection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to any other officer in the -department that remembers seeing him in the area at all? - -Mr. BARNETT. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in -the building and talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Officer Baker was one? - -Mr. BARNETT. I haven't talked to the officer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had -come from the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no notion in your mind that they could have -come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass? - -Mr. BARNETT. To me, it is impossible. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From the sound of the shots? - -Mr. BARNETT. The sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't -echo. It would be a low sound. For a shot to echo, it has to be high up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean to hang? - -Mr. BARNETT. To hang like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now there were altogether three policemen assigned to the -corner of Elm and Houston; is that right? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other men assigned down the length of Elm -Street here, that you know? - -Mr. BARNETT. Not that I know of. There were no men stationed -permanently there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The responsibility of control in that area would have -been the job of the motorcycle riders and the Secret Service men? - -Mr. BARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any general orders that are issued to police -officers in regard to the scanning of windows when motorcades go by and -that sort of thing? - -Mr. BARNETT. Well, in our training, we are told to scan windows, among -lots of things. Look on top of buildings, windows, cars, but, of -course, these things you are taught from the beginning. You don't have -to be reminded of it every day. That is what you are taught to do, and -it would take too long to remind us of everything they are supposed to -do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Every time you went out on an assignment? - -Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; it would be impossible. That is why you are -trained for a job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you saw or heard on -that day that you haven't told us about now, that you think we would be -interested in? - -Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I believe that is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, officer, for coming in. We -appreciate your cooperation. - -Mr. BARNETT. You are welcome. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDDY RAYMOND WALTHERS - -The testimony of Eddy Raymond Walthers was taken at 8:16 p.m., on July -23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 361 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, [spelling] -L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r, and I am an attorney on the staff of the President's -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I -have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant -to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November -29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress 137. Pursuant to the rules -of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled -to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of -your hearing. I know you didn't get the 3 days' notice of your hearing, -but that can be waived by the witness and I assume that since you are -here you are prepared to proceed and that we may proceed without your -attorney being present? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Eddy Raymond Walthers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I was born here in Dallas County in 1928 on July 17. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I live at 2527 Boyd Street in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a deputy sheriff in Dallas County, Tex.? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a deputy sheriff? - -Mr. WALTHERS. About 9 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in or about the area of the -Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that -correct? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to be there at that time? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing in front of the sheriff's office on Main -Street and close to Houston with Mrs. Decker watching the parade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there is a building right there at the corner of -Elm Street and Houston Street, what has been referred to as the county -building; is that right? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing over on Main Street just east of the -intersection of Main Street and Houston; is that correct? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; just between the two buildings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you standing there when the motorcade came down? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you stood there and watched the motorcade go by? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you acting in any official capacity at that time? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I was a deputy sheriff--I was on duty and had stopped -there with Mrs. Decker to watch the parade go by. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any specific assignment in connection -with the motorcade or the President or anything like that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street and made a wide turn -into Houston Street and went back down Elm Street; isn't that right? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the motorcade turned onto Houston Street, what did -you do? - -Mr. WALTHERS. After it turned onto Houston and most of the motorcade -went by, I turned to talk to Mrs. Decker and asked her if she was ready -to go back inside and I proceeded to help her back up the steps and -then we heard the shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were still standing over on Main Street -around the corner from Houston Street when you heard the shots? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually didn't see any of the shots take effect or -anything like that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I remember three shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear about that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you heard the shots? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Well, I was facing her and I told her that sounded like a -rifle and I ran across here [indicating] and there is a wall along in -here and I hopped over it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you ran across Houston Street and jumped over -the wall and back into Dealey Plaza there? - -Mr. WALTHERS. People were laying down on this grass--women and men were -laying on top of their children on the grass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On either side of Main Street? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and then someone, I don't know, I say someone--a -lot of people was sitting there--but it must have been behind that -fence--there's a fence right along here---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the area immediately behind the -No. 7 that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 354--there is a concrete -structure there of some sort. - -Mr. WALTHERS. It don't show on this, but since this picture was made, -there's a fence--it may be there--it's a solid board fence along here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Running along behind the concrete structure that faces -Elm Street and is No. 7 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. WALTHERS. And at that time I heard the shots as well as everybody -else, but as we got over this fence, and a lot of officers and people -were just rummaging through the train yards back in this parking area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the parking area down there? West of the Texas School -Book Depository Building between the Texas School Book Depository and -the railroad tracks? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the discussion came up among several of the -officers, Were there any shots fired? And I said, "Well, they sounded -like rifle shots to me." At the time no one knew--in our crowd they -were sure the shots had been fired though because of the reports--we -heard the noise, and I left then and went back up here and came back -onto the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Up on Elm Street? - -Mr. WALTHERS. And went over on this grassy area right in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Between Elm Street and Main Street? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Between Elm and Main and starting to looking at the grass -to see if some shots had been fired and some of them might have chugged -into this turf here and it would give an indication if some had really -been, if they were really shots and not just blanks or something, and a -man, and I couldn't tell you his name if my life depended on it--he had -a car parked right here in Main Street--in the Main Street lane headed -east, just under this underpass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the point marked No. 9 of the exhibit we are -talking about; is that right? - -Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--in this lane here and his car was just -partially sticking out parked there and he came up to me and asked me, -he said, "Are you looking to see where some bullets may have struck?" -And I said, "Yes." He says, "I was standing over by the bank here, -right there where my car is parked when those shots happened," and he -said, "I don't know where they came from, or if they were shots, but -something struck me on the face," and he said, "It didn't make any -scratch or cut and it just was a sting," and so I had him show me right -where he was standing and I started to search in that immediate area -and found a place on the curb there in the Main Street lane there close -to the underpass where a projectile had struck that curb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember that man's name if I told you or if I -reminded you of it? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry--I don't know if I would remember it or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a man by the name of Jim Tague [spelling], -T-a-g-u-e, who works as an automobile salesman. - -Mr. WALTHERS. I remember he had a gray automobile--I remember that very -well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think it must have been Mr. Tague because he was in -here this afternoon and he told me his car was parked right there at -No. 9 and that's when I put the mark on the exhibit and he walked up -there and talked to a deputy sheriff and he looked at the curb. - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; this was pure ignorance on my part in not getting -his name--I don't know--but I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is pretty clear it was Mr. Tague, because his -testimony he gave today jibed with yours and it couldn't have been -anybody else and he had a cut and some blood on his face. - -Mr. WALTHERS. Well, at the time I wasn't interested in whether he was -cut or what, I just said, "Where were you standing?" In an effort -to prove there was some shots fired, and after seeing the way it -struck the curb at an angle--which it came down on the curb--it was -almost obvious that it either came from this building or this building -[indicating] the angle it struck the curb at. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this building or this building you are -talking about the School Book Depository Building or the building -immediately east thereof, across Houston Street? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I ran right then back up along in here and that -would be right at the corner of Elm and Houston, where I ran into -one of our deputies, Allan Sweatt, and told him--everybody still at -this time was just--I don't know what you would call it--just running -around in circles you might say, and I told him, I said, "A bullet -struck that curb. It's fresh--you can see a fresh ricochet where it had -struck," and I said, "From the looks of it, it's probably going to be -in this School Book Building," and immediately then everybody started -surrounding the School Book Building and then I got off and come up the -street here that runs in front of the School Book Depository Building -and started gathering up a bunch of witnesses and started taking them -over and put them in our office so we could get some statements before -they got all jumbled up together with their stories. - -I continued to take witnesses across the street here and locked them up -and got our secretaries to start taking depositions from them before -they had a chance to get their stories messed up, and I don't remember -who it was now that came--as I was coming out the back door of the -jail, out of the office building here and said an officer had been -killed in Oak Cliff and there wasn't anybody over there, everybody was -down here, and I got a couple of our civil deputies and put them in a -car and went to Oak Cliff, and left all this area where the shooting -was--where the shooting had taken place--and just at the time I reached -Zangs and Jefferson in Oak Cliff, I had a little transistor radio in -my car, and that's the first time I knew the President was actually -shot. They announced the fact that he was actually dead on the Citizens -radio and immediately after that we got a call that a suspect that was -supposed to have shot Officer Tippit was in the library building on -Marsalis and Jefferson, and everybody that had made it to Oak Cliff -then went to that library and we bailed out and surrounded it and -found out that it was no good. It was not the suspect, and then we got -back in the car and got the call to go to the Texas Theatre, that the -suspect was in the balcony of the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, and I -parked there just east of the entrance and out in the traffic lane, -and I had a sawed off shotgun that I took with me inside the building -and went up the steps to the landing there and got hold of the manager -and asked him to turn on the house lights, and he said, "I'll go get -some flashlights." I said, "No, you can turn on the house lights, we're -looking for a man," and I went on into the balcony and there wasn't -anybody in the balcony. It was vacant. I ran to the rail then and -looked downstairs and the house lights had just came on and it wasn't -too bright, even with them on, and we seen some confusion down in the -center section close to the back of the center section of the seats and -I hollered to another bunch of officers that were still pouring in the -balcony, "He must be downstairs," or, "He is downstairs," or something -to that effect and I ran back down the steps then and I laid my shotgun -down there across a couple of seats there and went into the aisle where -a scuffle was taking place and seen two hands wrapped around a pistol. -Like I say, it was dark even above the seats and down between the seats -it was pretty much of a mess to tell what was really happening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This man that had both hands up was down there between -the seats? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Well, there were two different hands wrapped around the -gun holding onto it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Two different people fighting for it? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and there were a lot of officers jumping over the -seats coming back to where it was happening, and Mr. B. K. Carroll that -works up at the city was coming right in on the same row I was in from -the opposite side facing me and I grabbed ahold of the hands that had -the gun and about that time two or three other officers piled into the -scuffle there in between the seats and I was real sure it was Carroll -that got the pistol out of his hands, or pulled it away from the hands -and then some uniformed officers just gathered this boy that turned -out to be Oswald up in a bunch, you might say, and I picked my shotgun -up and Mr. McDonald, I remember seeing him pick his hat up off of the -floor and standing over at the edge of everything and dusting his hat -off when we got ready to come out with him, and I got the shotgun, and -a lot of people had congregated out in front of the show and there's -kind of an island there that goes all the way out into the street and -people were all over it and I had gotten the shotgun and turned it -sideways like a battering ram to get through and they were all raising -hell and cussing and saying what they wanted to do, "Let us have him," -and they wadded him up in the car and left with him, and then I got in -my car and somewhere in the shuffle I lost the two officers I had with -me--I don't remember how they got back to the station, but I remember -leaving them--I couldn't find them, so I went on back to the station -then and Mr. Decker gave me an address on a little piece of paper--I -thought I could remember the address in Irving where this Oswald had -been staying with Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 2515 West Fifth? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I believe it was--5th or 15th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth. - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and -we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and -another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right -now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what -turned out to be Mrs. Paine--just as soon as we stepped on the porch, -she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you," and we didn't have -any trouble at all--we just went right on in and started asking her--at -that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came -up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that -they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you account for the fact that Mrs. Paine said, -"Come on in, we've been expecting you?" - -Mr. WALTHERS. I don't know--to this day, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that's what she said? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I know that's what she said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Paine said that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir; she said, "Come on in, we have been expecting -you." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there that heard her say that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine all the officers on the porch did. I know Rose -was trying to show her his credentials and she just pushed the screen -open and said, Come on in. Now, after we got inside and we were making -a search of the house with their permission, they had no objection -whatsoever. Mrs. Oswald couldn't speak much English and Mr. Rose was -doing most of the questioning, the city officer. We were just--not -actually knowing what we were looking for, just searching, and we went -into the garage there and found this--I believe it was one of these -things like soap comes in, a big pasteboard barrel and it had a lot -of these little leaflets in it, "Freedom for Cuba" and they were gold -color with black printing on them, and we found those and we also found -a gray blanket with some red trim on it that had a string tied at one -end that you could see the imprint of a gun, I mean where it had been -wrapped in it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You could really see the imprint of the gun? - -Mr. WALTHERS. You could see where it had been--it wasn't completely -untied--one end had been untied and the other end had been left tied, -that would be around the barrel and you could see where the gun had -rested on the inside of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean by that, you could tell that from the way the -thing had been tied? - -Mr. WALTHERS. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the -impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that -a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind--you couldn't tell, but -you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found -some little metal file cabinets--I don't know what kind you would call -them--they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single -handle on top of it and the handle moves. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were? - -Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all -in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch -of pictures that we taken. We didn't go to the trouble of looking at -any of this stuff much--just more or less confiscated it at the time, -and we looked at it there--just like that, and then we took all this -stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number -from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff. -It was a Whitehall phone number, I believe, and they said they didn't -know where he lived, but this was where they called him, and I called -Sheriff Decker on the phone when I was there and gave him that number -for the criss-cross, so they could send some men to that house, which -I think they did, but I didn't go myself. Then we put everybody in the -car, the kids, Mrs. Oswald, and everyone--no; just a minute--before -that, though, this Michael Paine or Mitchell Paine, whichever you call -it, came home and I had understood from Mrs. Paine already that they -weren't living together, that they were separated and he was supposed -to be living in Grand Prairie and when he showed up I asked him what -was his object in coming home. He said--well, after he had heard about -the President's getting shot, he just decided he would take off and -come home, and he arrived there while we were there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was already after the time Oswald had been arrested, -of course? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had actually helped arrest Oswald at the -Texas Theatre? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what time was it approximately, would you be able to -give us that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Oh, man--I couldn't tell you; I'm sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was arrested about what time--it must have been -around close to 2 o'clock or 1:30? - -Mr. WALTHERS. It was between 1:30 and 2 o'clock. This wasn't his -getting off time, I remember him saying he had taken off and he had -worked at Bell Helicopter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It's perfectly possible, however, that he could have -heard about Oswald having been arrested in connection with the Officer -Tippit shooting? - -Mr. WALTHERS. But he didn't say anything about that when he came in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I didn't ask him, of course, if he knew he had been -arrested. I asked him if he knew Oswald and he said, "Yes"; he had -known him. We were standing, I remember, on each side of the ironing -board when I talked to him and he said "Yes," he had known him and I -said, "How does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?" He said, -"He's a Communist. He is very communistic minded. He believes in it." -And he says, "He used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and -he says, "I don't believe in it." And our conversation didn't go too -far. It was just a matter of talk about Oswald and what he had to say -about him being a Communist. - -They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' -office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the -blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz -and left them and went back to my station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? - -Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a -letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we -seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and -a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, -"That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about -this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down -and shut it and took the whole works. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have been advised that some story has developed that at -some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets -full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or -something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the -stuff you got out there or anything like that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of -them contained, I don't know myself to this day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could -see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play -for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel. - -Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, -but things get all twisted around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a story, some sort of story that you -were supposed to have found a spent bullet. - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, -I've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never found any spent bullet? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No; me and Allan Sweatt 2 or 3 days after the -assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search -in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe -the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we -looked all up there and everywhere and I never did find one. I never -did in all of my life tell anybody I found a bullet other than where it -hit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Also, actually, if you were standing down here in front -of this building on Main Street at the time the shots were fired, I -suppose you could have seen down there to this railroad track trestle -that goes over the underpass, did you have occasion to look down there -at any time? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No; it never even entered my mind, and knowing how this -thing is arranged and I have chased a couple of escapees across the -thing before, and knowing what was over there, the thought that anyone -was shooting from back in here--I've heard some people say he was -behind the fence, and I'm telling you, it just can't be, because it's a -wide open river bottom area as far as you can go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It's a river bottom? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the thought that anyone would be shooting off of -there would almost be an impossible thing--there's no place for him to -go--there's nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you certainly never saw anybody firing from the -tops of those railroad tracks, I mean, you never told anybody you saw -someone firing from up there? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never told anybody that one of the shots had come -from the top of those railroad tracks either; is that right? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that what you saw there on the curb was a -ricochet mark or could you clearly identify that in your own mind? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; it was a fresh ricochet mark. I have seen them and -I noticed it for the next 2 or 3 days as it got grayer and grayer and -grayer as it aged. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What curb was it on? - -Mr. WALTHERS. It would be on the south Main Street curb--it would be on -the south side of Main. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354 here and I -am looking at--looking specifically at spot No. 9 on that exhibit, it -would have been directly east up Main Street on the north curb at No. -9, is that right? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, and about--I could step this off here--just about -this distance from the underpass on the curb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 or 15 feet or something like that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine about 10 or 11 feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, here's a picture that has been marked Tague Exhibit -No. 1 and I have never even been able to figure out which way it is -supposed to be looked at, but it purports to be a picture of a ricochet -mark on this curb down there, does that look anything like what you saw -down there? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, a little at one end where it first hit and then went -to the left. This would be--this was shaded from the sun by someone's -hand, evidently. This would actually be the curb--this would be the -street right here [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The lower part--the black part of the dark colored part? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. Let me see now. A picture taken straight down like -this don't have any particular bearing. I'll tell you what--this is -going to be the divider between the pavement, because I remember, -there's not any grass growing down there, it's just a gravel looking -top, so this is going to be the street, and that's right, because the -bullet is going to be big where it hit first, and then it left this -trail. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the light colored part is the street -and the dark colored part is the divider? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I think it would be the street--the light colored part, -and the dark colored part is this little gravelly looking part down -there and it's under the shade of the underpass and no grass will grow -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The light colored part is a part of the street and -the dark colored part is the curb and there is what appears to be a -ricochet mark on the curb. - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; because it is high like--this is the curb and this -is the street, and it come along this edge of the curb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the top of the curb? - -Mr. WALTHERS. And it angled down--at the angle, you could almost just -point it right back up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Evidently this shot must have went way high over that -car--the last shot, as they were fixing to go to the underpass--it must -have been awful high to hit where it did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the last shot, why? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I would say it was the last shot because of the distance -it went down towards the underpass. Had there been another shot, it -would have been way--would have went way back over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The car had already been down--the car would have already -been under and by the underpass? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you saw or observed that -day that you can tell us about what happened? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you were there at the Texas Theatre helping to -arrest Oswald, did you hear Oswald say anything when they tried to get -ahold of him and tried to get him out of there? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Like I say, there was quite a scuffle between them, but I -heard him say, "It's all over now, it's all over now," or something to -that degree, and I can't be sure, because like I say, there was such a -scuffle going on and there was so much confusion, but he said something -about, "Now"--"It's over now," or, "It's all over now." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anybody else heard anything that he said -at the time; have you discussed this with anybody else? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I haven't discussed it because the officers that were -there were not in my squad and I haven't talked to anybody about it, -but there were some other officers around there. Some of our officers -were there but they weren't right there in the area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear--there have been some stories that he -actually tried to shoot one of the officers there with that pistol and -one of the officers heard that pistol--the hammer hit the bullet, did -you hear anything like that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When I say, "Did you hear anything like that," I mean, -did you hear the hammer in the pistol hit the bullet? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear somebody say that it hit the bullet? - -Mr. WALTHERS. I think McDonald said he snapped it at him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear it? - -Mr. WALTHERS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do think that Oswald said something like -this--"It's over, it's all over now?" - -Mr. WALTHERS. He said something--when he was being pulled up out of the -seat and as they were getting the gun away from him is when he made a -remark about, "It's over now, it's all over now." - -Mr. LIEBELER. After he had been subdued and they got his gun away from -him, he said that? - -Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that I haven't asked -you about, I don't think I have any more questions. I want to thank you -very much for coming in and giving us your testimony, especially being -as late as it is. - -Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry if I was a little evasive on some of this, but -I didn't remember--it's been quite a while now. Of course, I have the -statement that I made immediately following all this, I guess, they -sent you a copy of it. It would probably have a little more of the time -and dates on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have covered the basic points that I wanted to cover -and that's all. Thank you very much for coming. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS TAGUE - -The testimony of James Thomas Tague was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. TAGUE. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission -pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated -November 20, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have -an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days, notice of the -hearing, and you are entitled to the usual privileges so far as not -answering questions are concerned. - -Since you are here without an attorney, I presume that you are prepared -to go ahead without the presence of counsel? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? - -Mr. TAGUE. James Thomas Tague. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. TAGUE. My address is 700 West Euless in Euless, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? - -Mr. TAGUE. I am a salesman for Cedar Springs Dodge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. TAGUE. Dallas; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. TAGUE. October 17, 1936. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity -of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the -assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. TAGUE. That's correct; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you happened to be there and what -you saw, and what happened. - -Mr. TAGUE. I was going downtown to pick up my wife--she was my girl -that I was going with at the time--to take her to lunch, and I -accidentally came upon the motorcade. - -I was not planning to watch the parade or anything. There were several -cars stopped in front of me, and I stopped there myself under the -triple underpass and got out and was standing there just, oh, about a -minute before the President's car came by. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was your car actually located? - -Mr. TAGUE. The nose of the car was sticking out from underneath the -triple underpass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What street were you on? - -Mr. TAGUE. What is the farthest street to the south? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street? - -Mr. TAGUE. Commerce; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street is one-way going east? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right; that's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So they stopped all traffic on Commerce Street? - -Mr. TAGUE. Cars in the left lane were stopping, the ones next to the -curb, and several cars had stopped in front of me, and I stopped. The -car was just halfway out from underneath the underpass, and I got out -of my car and stood by the bridge abutment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were just out from under the triple underpass so -that you could see the President's car and the motorcade coming on down -Elm Street, is that correct? - -Mr. TAGUE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you saw. - -Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was -watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this -time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud -firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more -of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing -firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the -motorcade and, of course, two more shots. - -And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting -after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge -abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and just as I -looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the -Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going on Elm Street under the triple underpass? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. Going on Elm. So I stood there looking around. I -looked up--there was a motorcycle policeman, and he stopped and had -drawn his gun and was running up the embankment toward the railroad -tracks. A crowd of people; several people, were starting to come down -into that area where he was running, and the people pointing, and -excitement up there and so on, and about that time a patrolman who -evidently had been stationed under the triple underpass walked up and -said, "What happened?" and I said, "I don't know; something." - -And we walked up to the--by this time the motorcycle policeman returned -back close to where his motorcycle was, and we walked up there and -there was a man standing there. Seeing that he was very excited--I -don't remember his name--at the time I did have it on the tip of my -tongue--very excited saying he was watching the President and it seemed -like his head just exploded. This was a couple or 3 minutes after this -happened. And the patrolman said, "Well, I saw something fly off back -on the street." - -We walked back down there, and another man joined us who identified -himself as the deputy sheriff, who was in civilian clothes, and I -guess this was 3 or 4 minutes after. I don't know how to gage time on -something like that. - -And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the -face while I was standing down there." - -And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek." - -And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood. And he said, -Where were you standing? - -And I says, "Right down here." We walked 15 feet away when this deputy -sheriff said, "Look here on the curb." There was a mark quite obviously -that was a bullet, and it was very fresh. - -We turned around and we looked back up to see where this possibly could -have come from, and the policeman thought he had seen something over -here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I have some pictures here and I will show you -to indicate these places, an aerial view of the whole area, Commission -Exhibit No. 354. Of course, the Texas School Book Depository Building -is here on the left, and this is the triple underpass here, and this, -of course, is Commerce Street going toward the east. - -As I understand it, your car was just nosed out in the left-hand lane -of Commerce Street and was just out from under the railroad tracks -that go over the triple underpass, so the nose of your car was on the -easternmost portion, on the eastern side of the railroad tracks that go -over the triple underpass, is that correct? - -Mr. TAGUE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you get out of your car? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do? Did you stay near your car or did you -walk on the area toward the grassy plaza? - -Mr. TAGUE. I was standing 3 or 4 feet in front of the concrete -embankment right here [pointing]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's make a No. 6 on this picture as to where you were -standing. This is the concrete strip that runs between Commerce and -Main Street right here? - -Mr. TAGUE. I was standing about right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 6? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing when you apparently -got hit with this flying, whatever it was? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then after you had run into this deputy sheriff, you -looked along the street and you saw what you thought to be a mark made -by a---- - -Mr. TAGUE. A motorcycle was parked here and the policeman was here on -the grass right here, and there was a swarm of people around him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 7. Let's put a No. 7 there. - -Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story of how he was standing right -there as he witnessed the facts. He said it looked like the President's -head exploded. And I said I felt something hit me. We walked down here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward No. 6? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. When we got within about 20 feet, the deputy sheriff -spotted the place about 12 to 15 feet out from the embankment on the -curb, and turned around, and we looked up here where the policeman -originally ran up on the grass here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here with the letter "C" in it. -Is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in -that circle, is that right? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. I pointed this out, and we turned around and looked -toward the School Book Depository, and from the reflection of the sun -it was something on the window. Not the--well, it is maybe five or six -windows which were open, which it was not the window that proved to be -where the shots were fired, but it was a different window like it had -spider webs or dust, and maybe shots had come through the window. - -We said maybe this is where they came from. And the deputy sheriff ran -back to the policeman. I may not be quite accurate, but I believe at -the time there was a whole swarm of motorcycle policemen coming back to -the area under the underpass going the wrong way here on Elm. - -They came back and parked, and he mentioned to them--that is probably 5 -minutes after it happened, and he was on the radio, and everybody ran -up around the School Book Depository at this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back and fix the general spot when the deputy -sheriff saw the mark on the street, going back to point No. 6, which is -where you were standing when you were hit. We go east along---- - -Mr. TAGUE. Right here is a curb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a curb that runs along---- - -Mr. TAGUE. About 12 to 15 feet right on the top of round of the curb, -was the mark that very definitely was fresh, and I would say it was a -mark of a bullet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say it is about 15 or 20 feet east of where you were -standing? - -Mr. TAGUE. No; about 12 to 15 feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. East of where you were standing? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At point No. 6? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just -estimate 12 to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right? - -Mr. TAGUE. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is -that right? - -Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission -Exhibit No. 354. - -Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit? - -Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything? - -Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make -any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe -the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no -connection. I looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall -this. We got to talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, -and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, You have blood there on -your cheek. That is when we walked back down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that -mark? - -Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't -say definitely on which one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get -hit in the face? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third -shot afterwards. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots? - -Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on -the Hertz clock. It was 12:29. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that you felt yourself struck? - -Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped, got out of my car, -and here came the motorcade. I just happened upon the scene. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you went back there subsequently -and took some pictures of the area, isn't that right? - -Mr. TAGUE. Pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you went back subsequently and took -some pictures of the area. - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; about a month ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I didn't know anybody knew about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Baker Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you took -that picture. - -Mr. TAGUE. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, that picture was taken by another -individual; I confused the picture taken by somebody else with the -picture I thought you had taken. - -You, yourself did take pictures of the area about a month ago? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; my wife and I were going to Indianapolis. This is the -home of my parents. I was taking some pictures of the area to show to -them. This was the latter part of May. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look at the curb at that time to see if the mark -was still there? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it still there? - -Mr. TAGUE. Not that I could tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet a newspaper photographer that day and talk -to him at all about the assassination? - -Mr. TAGUE. The day of the assassination? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about -a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police -headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had -seen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that? - -Mr. TAGUE. I did that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring now to Baker Exhibit No. 1, does that look like -it might have been taken from approximately the place where you were -standing at the time you got hit, from the same general area? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe I was back further to the left, back down this way -further. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is further toward the west? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Further down toward the triple underpass? - -Mr. TAGUE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you that the lamppost that is showing -right here on the right-hand side of Baker Exhibit No. 1 is the very -end of the grassy area described by Commerce Street and Main Street, -and right down toward the concrete embankment? - -Mr. TAGUE. It might possibly be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to tell for sure by looking at Baker Exhibit -No. 1? - -Mr. TAGUE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have another picture here that purports to be a picture -of a curb with a bullet mark on it. I ask you if that looks like what -you saw that day. - -Mr. TAGUE. It looks similar, but I can't say whether this is the actual -one or not, because you can see it appears to be a bullet mark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this picture, having marked it Tague -Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to have you initial it for the purpose -of identification. - -(Mr. Tague initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the mark on the curb---- - -Mr. TAGUE. I can't tell too much which angle of the curb this is or -what here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is not a very clear picture either. Actually, I -can't figure which way to look at it. - -Mr. TAGUE. I can't either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It looks like there is a man standing there with a hand -along the side of the curb. - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; this looks like the curb here at the back and the sun -shining down. The bullet mark was right at the circle of the curb as -this here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, where the curb turned? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. At the very round, right in the middle of the round. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is where the street curb turns; when it turns there? -I don't understand that. [Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354.] - -Mr. TAGUE. This right here, this picture was taken this way. It would -be looking this way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am still at a loss. You indicated there is a turn in -the curb at some point along here. Does the curb end and the road go -together? - -Mr. TAGUE. Here is the curb here I am talking about on the very round. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the round top of the curb? The curb itself continues -on, but the bullet struck sort of the top edge of the curb? - -Mr. TAGUE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand. Did you have any idea where these shots -came from when you heard them ringing out? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I thought they were coming from my left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately to your left, or toward the back? Of course, -now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come -from the Texas School Book Depository, but see if we can disregard that -and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the -first place. - -Mr. TAGUE. To recall everything is almost impossible. Just an -impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first impression was -that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Up above No. 7? - -Mr. TAGUE. That somebody was throwing firecrackers up there, that the -police were running up there to see what was going on, and this was my -first impression. Somebody was causing a disturbance, that somebody had -drawn a gun and was shooting at the crowd, and the police were running -up to it. When I saw the people throwing themselves on the ground is -when I realized there was serious trouble, and I believe that was after -the third shot was fired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression of where the shots came from was much the -result of the activity near No. 7? - -Mr. TAGUE. Not when I heard the shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought they had come from the area between Nos. 7 -and 5? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 5 and 7, -toward the general area of "C"? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up near the railroad tracks in that area -after you heard the shots? - -Mr. TAGUE. I looked all around. I looked at the complete area to try -to find out where the disturbance was. And for some reason, after the -third shot, I believe I ducked down back in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Under the railroad tracks? - -Mr. TAGUE. Right. Behind an abutment. And when I stuck my head outside, -the Secret Service car was just starting to pass under the underpass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The car immediately behind the President. Did you see any -evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks -above the triple underpass? - -Mr. TAGUE. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent with what you heard -and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor -of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. TAGUE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area? - -Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this -question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a -cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you -were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly? - -Mr. TAGUE. I believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots? - -Mr. TAGUE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing anything else or observing -anything else that day that you think would be helpful to the -Commission, that I haven't asked you about? - -Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can think of. There is lots of things that you -recall about something like that, that you don't recall for certain. -What struck me the most was that everybody said all three shots were -accounted for. I felt very strongly that the third shot hit down there, -and there was the deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the -bridge right there with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit -down there? - -Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted -for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were -accounted for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car? - -Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that -indicated that one of them might have missed. - -Mr. TAGUE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that? - -Mr. TAGUE. That's right; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, is there anything that you can think of -that you think the Commission should know about of what you heard and -saw that day? - -Mr. TAGUE. No; I don't know a thing. The only thing that I saw that I -thought was wrong was that there was about 5 or 6 or 7 minutes in there -before anybody done anything about anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the shots were fired? - -Mr. TAGUE. That was after the shots were fired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean, "Before they did anything"? - -Mr. TAGUE. There was no action taken except for the one policeman that -I could see that stopped his motorcycle, and it fell over on him at -first, and he got it standing upright and drew his gun, and he was the -only one doing anything about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any other policemen around in the area? - -Mr. TAGUE. Not for 4 or 5 minutes. If Oswald was in that building, he -had all the time in the world to calmly walk out of there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently that is just what he did do. Well, if you -can't think of anything else, Mr. Tague, I want to thank you for coming -in and for the cooperation you have given us. We appreciate it very -much. - -Mr. TAGUE. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON - -The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HUDSON. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the -Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order -11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress -No. 137. - -Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an -attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice -of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but -since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present? - -Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the -witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will -you state your full name, please? - -Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the -Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza; -is that correct? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about -November 22, 1963. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at -around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard -where the little toolshed was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were? - -Mr. HUDSON. Elm. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what? - -Mr. HUDSON. Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you -at the time the motorcade came by? - -Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate -is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the -motorcade came along--that's about where I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that -right? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what -you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight -down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about -halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps -are--somewhere near about halfway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission -Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can -you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where -you were standing? - -Mr. HUDSON. Let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--I don't -believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they -are--I recognize it now--here it is right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps? - -Mr. HUDSON. Here they are--right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street -there? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the -steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is -a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps -and I was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were -standing so that we can have that. - -Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that -correct? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on -photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you -saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection. - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age -about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to -park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place -over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and -said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat -down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of -Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on -the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out -and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place -right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the -motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying -to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right -at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that -correct? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a -little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? - -Mr. HUDSON. Right hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car -was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was -right along about this lightpost right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand -side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost -right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this -little crook right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, I -believe, where the first shot was fired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when -the first shot was fired? - -Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car -was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the -shot struck him, when the bullet struck him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether? - -Mr. HUDSON. Three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the -head; is that right? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in -your mind about that, was there? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear -another shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting -there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says, -"Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay -down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was -already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over -on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot -rung out and when I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot -was coming from above and kind of behind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and -then above? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the -ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole -lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he -was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post -that shows in the picture? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see -[indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't -it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture -of a reenactment of the scene. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty -close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right -along in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was -about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was -fired? - -Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the -head by the time the third shot was fired? - -Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was -hit in the neck one time and in the head one time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the -presidential car then; could you see it then? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the -corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, -come off of Houston onto Elm. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the -first shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head, -did you see what he did, what happened in the car? - -Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the -seat with him and pulls him over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat? - -Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first -shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot---- - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to -say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. -Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck -after he had been hit in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could -have been hit? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head -like that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you -know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right, -sir? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when -he was hit in the neck? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck. - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in -photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this -is Elm Street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been -that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can -remember, during the time the President went by? - -Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole -bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion -pictures with a movie camera? - -Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking -pictures. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera? - -Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting -time--now--I did notice a man back over here on this triangle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion -picture camera or not, but he had a camera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson -Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would -you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk -about it, so we don't get confused? - -Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials. - -Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and -let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing? - -Mr. HUDSON. (No response.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it -that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of -Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before. - -Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe--right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep -right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see -it in that picture at all--I can't. - -Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L. -Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth -Turnpike, keep right." - -Mr. HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right -through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the -other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture--I -don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have -moved that R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. -18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the -time--No. 1. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have -got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, -this is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that -concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here -and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down -right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where -those steps is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the -back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of -the concrete structure there? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this -picture was? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; -yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different -angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. -875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side -of the picture. - -Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1, -immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep -right." does it not? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that -concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree -come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a -live oak tree right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete -embankment there, there's a live oak tree there. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you -make yourself out? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right -here--I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times -Herald paper--I can show you myself in it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning -after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the -assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture. - -Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's -one of them men and myself or not up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are -not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, -Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book -Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to -where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1. - -Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that -picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward -those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could -be one of those men standing right there--I'm not for sure--I wouldn't -say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well -enough to tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm -Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons -Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been -hit when he was that far back up Elm Street? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the -President get hit in the head? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you -think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the -head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down--if -so--about where was it? - -Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President -get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little -knoll there and you got away. - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up -toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple -underpass? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking -down towards Elm Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that -went across the underpass? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots -came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and -kind of behind like--in other words, to the left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book -Depository, wouldn't it? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that -way, to tell you the truth about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after -things started? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow -thinks about a million things in one second there at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with -a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on -the overpass or any place else? - -Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all -happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you -about? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally--did you think Governor -Connally had been hit? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. -The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the -car when that happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car -at all? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots? - -Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot -and fell down in the car. - -Mr. HUDSON. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as -the second shot? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any -recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be -fired and how far apart was one shot from the other? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It -seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the -shots were all fired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the -first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any -estimate about that? - -Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes? - -Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the -shots off anyway? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting? - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting -with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns--.22's and things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them -closer together? - -Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security -arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all -handled by the police? - -Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that? - -Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know -they had been routed that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they -came? - -Mr. HUDSON. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you? - -Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you -have told me? - -Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police -Department or the FBI? - -Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse--the -same day that the assassination was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's -office? - -Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for -coming in. I don't have any more questions. - -Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon? - -Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you -cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on -behalf of the Commission. - -Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDGAR LEON SMITH, JR. - -The testimony of Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. was taken at 10:05 a.m., on July -24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SMITH. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney with the -staff of the President's Committee investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony -by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive -Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of -Congress No. 137. - -By the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you -are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 -days' notice of the hearing. I know that you haven't had 3 days' notice -of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday -and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, I presume you -are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney -being present; is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. SMITH. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born? - -Mr. SMITH. Myrtle Springs, Tex., July 9, 1933. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. SMITH. 1800 Scripture, Apartment 6, in Denton, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Dallas policeman? - -Mr. SMITH. A Dallas policeman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in the vicinity of the Texas -School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came -to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were -given about what you were supposed to do? - -Mr. SMITH. Okay--the dates and times will be just approximately, -because I don't recall exactly, but approximately 9 a.m., November 22, -1963, I attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men -who were designated to work traffic for the President's visit to Dallas. - -At that detail I was given instructions by Captain Lawrence, P. W. -Lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. Some of -these things I was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any -unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the -vicinity of where I was located. He instructed us specifically about -placards. I understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but -if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like -that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of -Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions: -What did you say your name was, Edgar L.? - -Mr. SMITH. E. L.--Edgar L. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you received your instructions that morning, -was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the -buildings in the area? - -Mr. SMITH. Not that I recall--just general--watch out, you know, for -the crowd. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went down to the corner of Elm and Houston and -took up your duty station there at about what time? - -Mr. SMITH. I think it was about approximately 10 o'clock and--I believe -that's about right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And there were two other officers there, isn't that right? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; there were. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what their names were? - -Mr. SMITH. One of them was Welcome Barnett and the other boy was named -Smith too, but I don't recall his initials. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from -the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach? - -Mr. SMITH. I said approximately--oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south -curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there -and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched -the crowd. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered--and I show you Commission Exhibit -No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be -approximately where you were standing; is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in -that position? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they -finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and -looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just -stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this -intersection here at Elm Street at all? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. -354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas -School Book Depository Building, were you not? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. -I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically--any -specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the -windows and what not of the various buildings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any -of those windows? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the motorcade came down Main Street -and turned right on Houston Street; what did you do then? - -Mr. SMITH. I just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep -the people back. I was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the -street here a little bit and I just stood there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were facing west? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go out into the intersection at any point -here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you? - -Mr. SMITH. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west -down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and -started to go down Elm Street, is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From where you are standing, could you observe the -railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the -bottom of Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. SMITH. I'm sure I could see them from that location, but I don't -remember, you know, noticing them. I had noticed them earlier in the -day, probably from that location, and I had saw some officers up there, -and other than that, I don't remember seeing anything else. I do -specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what -happened? - -Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that -the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the -third one, I ran down the street here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, -I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they -turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many -people standing there around the corner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street -than Position "A"? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; I -was under these windows here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down -there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to -see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate -of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down -there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it -came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were -when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought -they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked -back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete -structure up behind No. 7? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Commission Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the railroad tracks there? - -Mr. SMITH. That's true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And to the north of No. 7? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you ran down in there and what did you do when you -got down there? - -Mr. SMITH. I ran down here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down on Elm Street? - -Mr. SMITH. And I ran up to here and I couldn't get over so I went back -around then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went farther down Elm Street and right behind this -concrete structure here; is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. And on back into there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And into the parking area behind the concrete structure -there at No. 7? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, and there's where I stayed for an hour or so and after -I got around there, they started checking everybody that was going -in and out of the--well, I don't know who they was checking because -there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county -officers back there plus the policemen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That area was fairly searched by the officers that came -down there? - -Mr. SMITH. It was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't find anything down there that seemed to -have anything to do with the shot that you heard? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure you heard three shots? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they came from? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir--like I said--the first two were just--I mulled it -over in my mind and I thought it was firecrackers and I thought to -myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then -it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially -after I ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired -that I got to the corner, and all I saw was the Presidential car going -under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you left the general area marked -"C" here, on Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this -extends for some distance over to the north and I went all the way down -the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and -took a position right down here where No. 1 is now--this was about an -hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and I don't guess -it was that long, because they had just got the word--I had already -gotten back around here when Officer Tippit was shot and we got the -word over the police radio, and they took off and I stayed in this area -for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and I don't -remember when I really left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, after you searched behind the north and west of the -School Book Depository Building, you came back up to position No. 1? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You then remained in the general area of the School Book -Depository Building for some period, and then you were relieved from -duty? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, I went back to work again on my regular duty. I had -been working evenings, and I had to report to work--it was 6 o'clock, I -think, and after that I went directly to work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody or anything that you could -associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than -you have already described? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have thought about it many times. I didn't see -any smoke or anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And at no time did you see any activity down on the -railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is what you heard that day consistent with the -proposition that the shots came from the School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. SMITH. They could have come from there and they could not--I just -don't know. Where I was standing it just sounded like it was all round -there. When I first thought--I don't know whether it actually came from -here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--I don't know -whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was -a good place for them to come from and I guess that's the reason I ran -down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down around No. 7 pointed out on this Exhibit No. 354? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have no earthly idea where they actually came from. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming -in. - -Mr. SMITH. That's okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER - -The testimony of Abraham Zapruder was taken at 1 p.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please? - -Do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. What is your name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I -am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the -joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. - -Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have your -attorney present, should you desire to have him here. You are entitled -to 3 days' notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions -you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. Did -you receive the 3 days' notice of the hearing? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I was out of town--I was in New York and my secretary -called--she called me and told me that she made an appointment -for me and that's about all that I know, Mr. Liebeler. The other -proceedings--I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that you are willing to go ahead with your -testimony today since you are here. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Abraham Zapruder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's spelled [spelling] Z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? Is that -correct? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Home address? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. 3909 Marquette. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. In Dallas--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you in business here in Dallas, Mr. Zapruder? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you in? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Manufacturing ladies dresses. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The manufacture of ladies dresses? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you took some motion pictures at the -time of the assassination? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us about the circumstances under which you -did that, where you were at the time and what happened? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what you saw. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that -was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have -my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her -I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she -urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I -thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is -right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's -just across--501 Elm Street, but I figured--I may go down and get -better pictures, and I walked down, I believe it was Elm Street and -on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying -to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one -place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very -much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or -whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the -underpass that was a square of concrete--I don't know what you call -it--maybe about 4 feet high. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit -No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing -there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up -immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep -Right"? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl -that works in my office. She was up there, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this -concrete abutment there? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--she was right behind me and that's from -where I took the pictures. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, -can't you? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I can't distinguish myself being--I know I was -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time -you were there? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; I was there and I would say this couldn't be anybody -else, unless--if this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed -now or changed--I would say that's me. That's the first time I have -seen that. Were these pictures ever published in a magazine--there were -pictures like that I suppose--actually? - -Mr. LIEBELER. This picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures -that is being sold down here in Dallas by a fellow named Willis, I -believe his name is Phil Willis. He has a series of slides that are -available and it's picture No. 5 of those slides in which you can see -yourself back there. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That must be it because there's another couple back -there--I took some from there and I was shooting some of the pictures -to start my roll from the beginning. I didn't want to have a blank and -I shot some, in fact, they have it--the Federal Bureau of Investigation -have those pictures. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the -motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did -it not? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple -underpass; is that correct? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade -started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in -from Houston Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened as you took the pictures. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was -almost in line--I was standing up here and I was shooting through a -telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine -it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean -over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area). - -Mr. LIEBELER. Grab himself on the front of his chest? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Right--something like that. In other words, he was -sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like -that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot -and you saw the President slump over? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a -moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when -you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw--I don't -believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I -had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I -saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I -started--I can hardly talk about it [the witness crying]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of -water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't -help it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. -Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing. - -Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you -heard altogether. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my -estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The -whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you -see--I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it -to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard -a third shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him -leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, -you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," -and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still -shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even -know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down -from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking -toward--back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they -killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know -what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, -what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't -know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on -just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," -and finally got to my office and my secretary--I told her to call the -police or the Secret Service--I don't know what she was doing, and -that's about all. I was very much upset. Naturally, I couldn't imagine -such a thing being done. I just went to my desk and stopped there until -the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the -films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help--I -didn't know what. - -As to what happened--I remember the police were running behind me. -There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn't -realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from--that it came from that -height. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, -you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you -and down the railroad track behind that, is that right? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle -cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running -right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they -thought it came from right behind me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from -which these shots came? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, -you can't tell when something is in line--it could come from anywhere, -but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right -in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from -here and it could come from there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked -down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of -the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From the direction behind you? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the -moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was -really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed -him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police -started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what -direction the shots did come from actually? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicated that they could have come also from -behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, -because they could have been from behind or even from the front. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it could have been--in other words if you have -a point--you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's -concerned. I have no way of determining what direction the bullet was -going. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which -the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you -had seen? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo -which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind -of--it had a sound all over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And with the buildings around there, too? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, the reverberation was such that a sound--as it -would vibrate--it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a -backfire--in other words, I didn't from the first sound, from him -leaning over--I couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the -second--I think it was the second shot. I don't know whether they -proved anything--they claim he was hit--that the first bullet went -through him and hit Connally or something like that--I don't know how -that is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there are many different theories about that. One -thing I would like you to do now--we have a series--a little book here -that is Commission Exhibit No. 885 and it consists of a number of -frames from motion pictures and I want to show you certain numbers of -them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like -they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it -as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame -pictures of the pictures that you took. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, -for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take -stills--when you move--did you ever have binoculars and every time you -move everything is exaggerated in the move--that's one reason why they -are kind of blurred--the movement. Now, you want me to identify whether -these are my pictures? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. -185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole -book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures -that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures -that you took from your motion picture camera? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were -taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how -to express myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they were. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it looks like them--that's when they turned in from -Elm Street. Is that it? I'm trying to visualize it. This is taking it -from the opposite side of me, is it, where I would have been taking -it, because I see this structure--I have been around there and--or -these--this couldn't be here--where did they get this in there--how did -they get this in there, if I was taking the pictures where did they get -this in there? That shouldn't be there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the thing back up behind on Dealy Plaza, I think, -isn't it? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. They have one there, too? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, I think there is. Now, if you will look at Hudson -Exhibit No. 1, you will see that there is some kind of concrete -structure there and is a different kind from that figure. It has bigger -holes in it. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--in the back of this here, that's where it -is--that's what I thought it was--that's where I got mixed up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought that the concrete latticework on the -individual pictures in Commission Exhibit No. 885---- - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Now I see it--that's where they have moved now the -flowers and all that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--I have to state this for the record--so they can -understand what we are talking about--you confused it with the concrete -lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in -Commission Exhibit No. 885, with the larger and obviously different -concrete structure in the background of Hudson Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, that--there is Elm Street there--this is a corner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically here--let me show you the ones that -have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This -is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and -turned there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there--the shot -wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here? - -Mr. LIEBELER. (no response). - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of -course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter -and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of -detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of -the frames, sir? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And 186 is similar also? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I've got a list of them here that I want to ask you -about--picture 207 and turn on over to this picture. It appears that a -sign starts to come in the picture--there was a sign in the picture. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow--I -told them I was going to get the whole view and I must have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But the sign was in the way? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; but I must have neglected one part--I know what has -happened--I think this was after that happened--something had happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you looked at your pictures -yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear -between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the -motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the motorcade comes behind it. Now, what about -picture No. 210--however--there is no No. 210 in here. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about No. 222? Now, in No. 222 you can see the -President's car coming out from behind the sign. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you can see Governor Connally right there in that -center seat, I believe? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; Governor Connally--yes--these are all the same -pictures--I remember the car was kind of buried and I was kind of low -and I don't know how I got that view--I didn't get just the full view -of the shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn to 225 and there the car is coming further out -from behind the sign. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still the same part of the sequence? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can now see the President for the first time. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; that's the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The President appears to have his hand up by his throat -as he is just coming from behind the sign. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it looks like he was hit--it seems--there--somewhere -behind the sign. You see, he is still sitting upright. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Do we have the sequence--the next frames? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it will be No. 227 and his hand comes up even more -and he starts to move a little to his left. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Apparently. And they started speeding the car then -to--but he is still sitting up here. Is that still the President here? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in picture No. 228--he still appears to have his -hand up and in No. 229 it's even more pronounced. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture 230 -he has raised both hands up. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. It looks to me like he went like this--did he go to his -throat--I don't remember--I thought he went like this [holding both -hands on the left side of his chest]. Did it show? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn over to picture 231 here--these still appear -to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; you get about 16 per second and I think my camera -was moving a little fast, maybe 18 frames per second, you see, we have -a lot of pictures on there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And 235 is there. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; we've got that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In 235 both hands are up by his throat there or up to the -top of his chest and Mrs. Kennedy is looking at him. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. To me it looks like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more -sharply perhaps? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Toward her--there are so many frames, of course, this is -probably his first reaction, but he leaned over--it would be after the -shot was fired, after I heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to -the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He moved over to his left and pulled his hands there? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat -in this direction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does picture 235 appear to be one of the pictures that -was taken from your sequence? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about 240--let's turn over to 240 and there he has -turned his head toward the left a little bit more. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. There's only about 100 frames--they are so close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Five frames? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Five frames is nothing--I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about 249? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. 249--I just wonder if it was the motion that he went -back with that I don't remember--it looks like he has got his hand on -his head--I don't remember seeing that. Of course, the pictures would -show. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it -down and pick them out. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it's hard. We run them in single frames--and to get -the main shot--it's hard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's turn over to picture 255--these all do look -like they are from your film? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; they are--I know this--I have seen it so many times. -In fact, I used to have nightmares. The thing would come every night--I -wake up and see this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about 255--what about that one? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's still the same series. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's still the same series--they keep moving along. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And let's look at No. 213--as we go along here--then he -does start moving sharply to the left. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been -just 2 or 3 seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over -and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself -at the left side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; moving toward Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's what impressed me. Now, what number are you on? - -Mr. LIEBELER. 313--you remember that one? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That was--that was the horrible one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here -as you look through it, are your pictures? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I -understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you -get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. -Sorrels, is that correct? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and -one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the Secret Service? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they -told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done -with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, -I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a -few times to show them to different people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the -original film? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. No; I don't have that at all--I don't have any at all. -They were sold to Time and Life magazines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You sold that to Life magazine? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in one aspect of this and I -would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid -you for that film. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. For the film? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I just wonder whether I should answer it or not -because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price--it's a -question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or -are they not going to use it, so I will say I really don't know how to -answer that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not going to even urge you to answer the -question. We will ask it and if you would rather not answer it--the -Commission feels it would be helpful. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I received $25,000, as you know, and I have given that to -the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence with a suggestion for Mrs. -Tippit. You know that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know that--you received $25,000? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. $25,000 was paid and I have given it to the Firemen's and -Policemen's Fund. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You gave the whole $25,000? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This was all over the world. I got letters from all -over the world and newspapers--I mean letters from all over the world. -It was all over the world--I am surprised--that you don't know it--I -don't like to talk about it too much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your answer very much. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I haven't done anything, the way I have given it, at a -time like this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, -but I want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful -things to the work of the Commission that we could possibly have had -because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people -in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment--by -comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop -with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I understand--and I am willing to be helpful but I am -sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. I am willing to be helpful -but I wish this would never have happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I know they have taken my camera to Washington. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Bell & Howell camera, isn't that right? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned it over to the FBI and they have made -tests on it? - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; and then Bell & Howell wanted it for their archives -and I thought they were through with it and let them have it. In -return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector -which was given to the Golden Age Group. It's a place where old folks -have a home. I asked them to donate something. I didn't want the -camera. I didn't want anything for myself. Then the FBI wanted the -camera again and I referred them to the Bell & Howell people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the -Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the -frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames -fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 -frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 -rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time -it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim -it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication -there were two? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the -Commission, Mr. Zapruder. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. I am only sorry I broke down--I didn't know I was going -to do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, I want to thank you very much, for the -Commission, for coming down. It has been very helpful. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I am ashamed of myself. I didn't know I was going -to break down and for a man to--but it was a tragic thing, and when you -started asking me that, and I saw the thing all over again, and it was -an awful thing--I know very few people who had seen it like that--it -was an awful thing and I loved the President, and to see that happen -before my eyes--his head just opened up and shot down like a dog--it -leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, -and thank you very much. I enjoyed meeting you very much. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. All right, any time you want some more help you can call -on me and I will be glad to come in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you a lot. - -Mr. ZAPRUDER. Goodbye. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PERDUE WILLIAM LAWRENCE - -The testimony of Perdue William Lawrence was taken at 9:15 p.m., on -July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Burt W. -Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general -counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy, and the Commission has been set up by Executive -order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. These -two official acts have directed the Commission to investigate into the -assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, -to evaluate all the facts we find and report back to President Johnson -upon them. We have asked you to come here in particular this evening, -Captain Lawrence, because we are interested in the security precautions -that were taken both in connection with the protection of President -Kennedy and in the prospective transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald to the -county jail. I might say that there are a set of rules and regulations -that have been promulgated by the Commission and under these rules -and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. You -are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days in advance from the -Commission. It has been the practice with all of the police officers -who have testified that we have simply written a letter to Chief Curry -and he has been good enough to make you people available. I assume that -you haven't received proper notice, and I will ask you at this time if -you are willing to waive that notice? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Certainly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Since you are willing to waive the notice, if you will -raise your right hand I will administer the oath to you. Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not my initials--my full name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your full name. - -Captain LAWRENCE. Perdue [spelling]. P-e-r-d-u-e William Lawrence -[spelling], L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Lawrence? - -Captain LAWRENCE. 1623 South Clinton. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? - -Captain LAWRENCE. In August--1911--August 18. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I am. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Captain of police. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the police department? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Nineteen years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you captain of police on November 22, 1963? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in charge of any particular department? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Traffic at this particular time. I am in charge of -the accident prevention bureau of the Dallas Police Department, but my -specific assignment was traffic control for the Presidential motorcade. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a special 1-day assignment that you had? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Well, in this particular case--it was for this -particular occasion. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any other person in the department who regularly -was concerned with what you call traffic control? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; Capt. R. A. Thompson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why you handled the traffic control -responsibilities for the Presidential motorcade rather than Captain -Thompson? - -Captain LAWRENCE. None that I know of; none that I can think of except -that Chief Batchelor saw me and said, "I want you to get together -with Lieutenant Southard." Lieutenant Southard works for Captain -Thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner -men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, I assume that this was -the reason that it was turned over to me. Normally on parade or a -special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of Captain -Thompson, but because of the escort part of it, I am assuming that -this was why it was given to me. I would like to also add that Captain -Thompson and I work evenings on alternate Friday and Saturday nights, -and I was scheduled to work daytime hours on Friday, November 22, and -this may also be a reason I was given this particular assignment. -Captain Thompson did work evenings on Friday, November 22, 1963, and -Saturday, November 23, 1963. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you participated in other traffic control projects in -the past? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been involved in one that involved the -President of the United States or any other important official who -required special protection? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In your experience in the Dallas Police Department, had -there ever been a time when there had been a President or an important -person who had come through who required special protection? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; but not in which I was directly assigned to any -duties. When President Kennedy came to town to visit Mr. Rayburn at -Baylor Hospital, Lieutenant Curtis was in charge of that detail and -I don't know if I was on a day off or what it was, but I was not in -charge of that detail at all. I made none of those arrangements. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From whom did you receive your instructions in connection -with the duties that you were to carry out? - -Captain LAWRENCE. My immediate superior was Deputy Chief R. H. Lunday, -and I received my instructions from Chief Lunday and Asst. Chief -Batchelor; both of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first told that you were to be in charge of -this traffic control? - -Captain LAWRENCE. The first day was on a Tuesday--November 19. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who told you at that time? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Batchelor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did Chief Batchelor tell you at that time that -your responsibilities would be? - -Captain LAWRENCE. He told me he wanted me to go over this route and -to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on -the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and -handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount -of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more -than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning -movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to -certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to -have stationed on the overpasses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted -on the overpass? - -Captain LAWRENCE. He gave me the names of no men. He told me to make -the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with -Chief Lunday or I went immediately to Chief Lunday and asked for the -assistance of Lt. W. F. Southard because he--his men would be directly -involved also in these assignments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice you have a list in your hand. Is that the list -Chief Batchelor gave you? - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's the list that Chief Batchelor gave me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our -file? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; not a bit. I would like to add that it was not -requested that I bring any papers with me. I did bring with me some -original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing -my memory, and I see no reason why my superiors would object to any -requests made by this Committee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now turn this over and I will state for the record -that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly 2-1/2 by -5 inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on -it and I'm going to mark this on the back. - -Captain LAWRENCE. I believe this to be the handwriting of Chief -Batchelor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark this Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, -July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. In handing this memo to you, did Chief -Batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were -supposed to do? - -Captain LAWRENCE. He was stationing the men on the overpass to see that -no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the -motorcade when the President passed under it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than stationing people at intersections, were you -given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the 18th of November did you later receive -further instructions from your superiors? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you next receive instructions? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I next received instructions well, during the week we -discussed this with Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor--certain -assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not -directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular -corner. - -I might add that when Lieutenant Southard and I went over this route, -we found one intersection open and which was on Record Street, which -raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have -written in the word "Record." - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's right--that's my handwriting and during that -week I was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding -the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be -coming across at the time that the Presidential motorcade was passing -through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. These were grade crossings that you are talking about? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Grade crossing--yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor -were you given any special instructions about the protection of the -President? - -Captain LAWRENCE. None. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you received some instructions from -one of your superiors? - -Captain LAWRENCE. The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the -motorcade assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived--I -asked how we would escort this motorcade. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And with whom did you discuss that? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time--no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told about the purpose of the officers that -were being provided, if anything? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle -officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside -the President's car and the Vice President's car, and some of the -others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many -officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had -prepared a list of 18 solo motorcycle officers, this included three -solo sergeants. - -I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached -Stemmons Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo -motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes -waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons Expressway -would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle -officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons -Freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, -would pull past the Presidential car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this include blocking oncoming traffic? - -Captain LAWRENCE. This would stop all oncoming traffic on Stemmons -Freeway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All the way to the Trade Mart? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No, sir--this would stop all traffic that would -be northbound on Stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on Stemmons -Expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came -onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the -motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle -officers after all the motorcade was headed for the Trade Mart, that -then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would -keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in -the southbound lanes? - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that conversation take place? - -Captain LAWRENCE. That conversation took place about the 20th of -November--2 days before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders -after that? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the -first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards -to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to -the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the -conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of -the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of -radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, -and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of -the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had -attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and -I listened in on most of the discussion and I heard one of the Secret -Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any motorcycle -officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he -would want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as -Chief Batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle -this--how plans had been made to cover the escort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special -precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the -President? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more -around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and -Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then -chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they -would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade -route, especially in the downtown area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for? - -Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but -they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this -had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, -these people were already meeting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any instructions as to what the -men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and -elsewhere along the route? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I discussed this with Chief Lunday two or three -times and Chief Batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever -took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with -placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route -should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might -throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the President -at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person -would be arrested immediately. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion between you and your superior -officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or -the tops of the buildings? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No, no instructions were given to me about my -men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control -instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block -off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the -motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other men who were going to have other -responsibilities? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, it was my understanding that the other -responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the -special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation -division. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they going to be stationed along the routes? - -Captain LAWRENCE. It was my understanding that they would be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each -particular location? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I was not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With specific reference to Dealey Plaza and the area of -Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository, did you have any idea -of how many Secret Service or detective bureau people or CID people -would be in that area? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any -member of the Secret Service about watching buildings or performing -other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have -just mentioned? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall -that the Secret Service did discuss? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate -in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient -personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these -detectives' assignments were not the ones that I was at that time -primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate -precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all -of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly -interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that I was -listening for. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking -precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President -that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people -throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that -the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these -motorcycle officers alongside the President's car, he said, "No, -these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward -the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was -endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun -their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he -mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and -those words were mentioned. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the -President spelled out in any certain details? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar -with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau -commanders. Now, I didn't know until that time who was going to be in -charge at the Trade Mart. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is that that you have reference to? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. on November 21. I knew -at that time that Captain Souter would be in charge, and when I was so -advised, after this meeting I asked Souter if I could meet him down at -the Trade Mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the Trade -Mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there -and it had also been discussed with me--I might add one thing that I -had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain -with the Presidential car while he was in the Trade Mart. This was told -to me by Assistant Chief Batchelor--to the best of my knowledge. - -After this conference, I asked Captain Souter if I could meet him down -at the Trade Mart and he said he would be down there and then I called -Sgt. S. Q. Bellah [spelling] B-e-l-l-a-h. I called him on the phone at -home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going -to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. He met me at the Trade Mart -with Stavis Ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to -be leading the Presidential motorcade and I met with both of them down -there on the evening of the 21st, so that I would know how they would -come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said, that your principal concern -then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly? - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was no special attention brought on your part to -the question of actually protecting the President other than from some -impediment to the actual movement of the automobile. - -Captain LAWRENCE. Mainly--my understanding was mainly that my -assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be -involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you -gave in stationing your men along the route? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I did and I might add another thing that I have -overlooked here, that Chief Batchelor had also instructed me to have -one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the -Stemmons overpass at Industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and -no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything -down when the motorcade came off of Stemmons Freeway to make its turn -onto Industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had -specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well -too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you given any general instructions to go out and look -along the route for special security problems that might arise along -the route? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I was not, but I did do this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that regard? - -Captain LAWRENCE. This is getting ahead, but after the detail was put -out in the detail room and I had talked to the motorcycle officers -and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, I -then went out to Love Field with Maj. George Tropolis of the police -reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the -arrival of the President and to see that all the motorcycle officers -were at the proper location, I had already given a copy of the detail -to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were -out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put -their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the -Presidential plane arrived and President Kennedy got off of the plane, -I saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and I knew -that Chief Lumpkin was going to--I had been told was going to be ahead -of this motorcade--I got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead -of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of -course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially -in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see -the President. I didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we -had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not -at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. Not every -intersection was covered, but as I went along the route, this didn't -look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the -streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. -As I came up to many of these intersections--I slowed my car down and -I was in uniform, but I was driving a plain car which I drive, and I -told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not -let any vehicles cross because I could hear Chief Curry on channel 2 -giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and I knew a -few blocks ahead of him would be Chief Lumpkin, and I knew that I would -have to stay considerably ahead of him. Although I was not given this -assignment--I proceeded on this route, and I followed it on down to the -Trade Mart. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did -you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed -along the route as to what they should do? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I gave them those instructions on the morning of -November 22 and I had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and -some notes that I had written. I first told the men the approximate -time of the arrival of the President's plane at Love Field. Then, I -went over the route that the motorcade would take to the Trade Mart and -then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the Trade Mart -and then to leave for Love Field. - -I stated that there would be some assignments which we would call -assignment No. 1, assignment No. 2 and assignment No. 3. Some officers -would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would -have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by -Lieutenant Southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along -the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. I then -covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants -would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were -to contact them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave -them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep -people from running out into the motorcade of cars? - -Captain LAWRENCE. They are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and -I also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for -persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but -that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so -that no one threw anything at the President, that there would be no -repetition of the Ambassador Stevenson incident, that President Kennedy -was the President of the United States and entitled to the courtesy and -protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was -done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that -they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific -instructions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at -a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to -these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be -looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned -around and facing the crowd? - -Captain LAWRENCE. He would either be facing the crowd or facing the -street, depending on the necessity at that time. He was given no -specific instructions except that he was not told specifically that he -would face the crowd on the traffic assignments, but he was told that -he was to watch the crowd, so I wouldn't say that the man--that all of -the men on the route were specifically instructed to face the crowd. I -gave them no such instructions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove down the route preceding the motorcade, did -you observe just exactly what these men were doing? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; most of the men were watching the oncoming -traffic and keeping it moving. They were keeping this oncoming traffic -moving. Some of the men were trying to push the crowd back, especially -in the downtown area. There were many of them facing the crowds there -and trying to push the crowds back, and this was, I imagine, about a -mile ahead of the motorcade. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As a practical matter--stationing as you did two men at -each intersection generally--could two men have effectively prevented -anyone who was bent upon attacking the President, could they have -effectively prevented him from rushing out and doing something? - -Captain LAWRENCE. If they saw them in time, but two men, in as large -a crowd as that--these men had all they could handle, with as large a -crowd as we had turn out for that motorcade. It was a full-time job -keeping the crowd back, and this was what the officers were trying to -do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given any thought, or do you have any suggestions -as to how a police department the size of the Dallas Police Department -could have stationed more men along the route so that they could -have effectively--not only kept the crowd back but could have been -effectively on the lookout for people who might want to rush out and do -something? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Well, looking back on it, I would say, with the -manpower that we had for this particular job and the crowd that turned -out, that without the use of precautions, these men would have a very -difficult time keeping a crowd back like that. This crowd was an -enthusiastic crowd, as you know, as you probably have heard many times, -and it was a bigger crowd than I expected. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it practical for a city the size of Dallas to use -barricades or ropes along the motorcade, the length of the one that the -President traveled? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Well, with the length of this motorcade, I don't -believe that we could have on this short a notice, and this is my -opinion. We would have to go to another source to get sufficient -barricades to handle it, because I don't think we have that many -barricades--I don't think that many barricades would be available for a -motorcade as long as this one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police department maintain barricades? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; the barricades are obtained from the public works -department. We have been able to request barricades to barricade off -streets at certain events on holidays and parks. We have asked for -barricades and we have always received barricades. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to your men with -respect to watching windows? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to the people -who were stationed along Elm and Houston at the intersection of Elm -and Houston, the man at Houston in particular, did you direct any -particular attention to those men who were stationed there? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not make the individual assignments, but -as I said, the only thing I did was make these remarks as to these -particular assignments in stating that they would be made by these -officers, and, of course, there were some assignments made in this area -and there were also some assignments made to the overpass. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would be in the general orders or -the general background and training of the police officers who were -stationed along this route which would make the individual police -officer believe that it was his responsibility to watch the windows of -buildings? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I don't recall any specific instructions of that kind -ever being given on an assignment of this type, because--again--as I -said, with the manpower that was assigned and the crowd they had to -control, that the officer had all he could take care of in maintaining -crowd control of the people on the streets and watching the crowd there. - -I am talking about the men that were assigned for these specific -assignments here. I assume that some instructions have been given to -some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to -the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically -assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my -assumption that this was a part of the assignments given. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the duties of the men at the intersections be so -burdensome prior to the time that the motorcade actually arrived that -they couldn't keep their eyes on the windows and other places such as -that? In other words, did they have anything to do of substance until -shortly before the motorcade arrived? - -Captain LAWRENCE. They had everything they could do to take care -of the crowds when I came through there before the President's -motorcade--keeping the crowds back, in fact, when I was listening -on channel 2 I heard Inspector Sawyer asking for more help for men -downtown to try to keep the crowds back so the motorcade could get -through there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When an officer is at an intersection for the purpose -of crowd control, do his problems begin as soon as the crowd begins -to form, regardless of how long it is before the President is going -to arrive, or does the problem only become a substantial one when he -realizes the President is 5 minutes away? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I think when he first goes on assignment, that's when -he's prepared to handle the crowd. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there a danger that the crowd is going to move -out into the street at any point as soon as it gets large enough where -the people start to push and shove? - -Captain LAWRENCE. This did happen in the downtown area and this was -substantially before the President's car actually arrived. This is why, -I believe, and I am assuming, because I was ahead of this motorcade, -but I heard Chief Curry ask these motorcycle officers that were way up -ahead to drop back, and some of them that were alongside and to the -rear of the President, to pull up alongside his car, and Chief Curry -had some of these motorcycle officers that were supposed to be about a -couple of blocks ahead of this motorcade, he asked them to drop back. -He asked the lead motorcycles that were supposed to be a half block -ahead of the escort--he asked them to drop back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it fair to say that without specific -instructions, that an officer would not watch the windows of buildings? -He would not do it as a result of routine orders that prevail in the -police department and his general training. - -Captain LAWRENCE. I would say in a case like this that an officer -should do this and this should be part of his responsibility on the -job, but I also have to say he was not given any specific instructions -to do that as far as buildings were concerned, but I'm talking about -the men assigned to this traffic assignment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other specific instructions besides watching -the windows of buildings that, as a result of your experience on -November 22, you think should be given to police officers who have -traffic assignments? - -Captain LAWRENCE. As a result of what happened on November 22, I -believe that where a Head of State, the President of the United States, -comes to Dallas and is in a motorcade or a parade, that the streets -should be barricaded or roped off and that officers--more officers than -were stationed be stationed along the route to control the crowd. I -mean, of course, this is looking back--as I told you before--there were -more people along the route--in fact, I was surprised--they had even -stopped their cars all along Stemmons Freeway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we are trying to benefit from hindsight, when -I asked you if in looking back you could make some suggestions for the -future. - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could a police force the size of the Dallas police force -have found more officers to man the route? - -Captain LAWRENCE. With a route as long as this, I doubt that they -could have, because some of these officers were given second and third -assignments and this motorcade route, as long as it was, was in my -opinion--this was too long of a motorcade route to give the proper -security, and our department wasn't big enough to handle an event--of -course, this is hindsight again--and an event like this with a route as -long as this to cover all of the cross streets, because we certainly -didn't cover all of the cross streets along the route except the -downtown area. We covered some of the main ones and there were other -streets that were not covered and the people themselves block the -streets for the motorcade. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have with you here a list of the assignments you made -on November 22? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you give that to us so we can mark it for -identification? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir; would you mind me explaining a couple of -them? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at all, if you think it is necessary. - -Captain LAWRENCE. There were some changes made. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this as Capt. W. P. Lawrence -Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Do you want to indicate what -clarification you would make in the assignments that are shown on -Exhibit No. 2? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the morning of November 22, the streets were -still wet and it was raining that morning and I talked to Asst. Chief -Batchelor about some of the motorcade assignments and he agreed with me -that no car, no motorcycle officer, should pass the President's car, -so we reassigned some officers indicated by asterisks on this detail -to cover the Stemmons Freeway traffic lanes to the rear of the escort -to prevent any vehicles from passing the presidental party, and that's -shown on the detail. Also, as I say--you can see the asterisks here -beside these officers and they were changed. Also, I felt that because -of the curvature of Stemmons Freeway and these people coming over a -crest and around a curve--that they would be on top of these motorcycle -officers and would not have warning enough. I discussed placing a -couple of the three-wheel motorcycle officers up further on Stemmons -Expressway, which would be back farther south, so that when they saw -from the top of Stemmons Expressway this motorcade approaching, they -could start stopping the traffic before it came around the curve and -down the hill because of the speed. For this reason, two officers were -stationed--their assignment was changed and they were placed--they were -stationed up on Stemmons Freeway for the purpose of starting to stop -this traffic themselves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else on there that you think should be -clarified? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening--I'm going back a day, but on the -evening of November 21, I was handed a list of additional men from the -Third Patrol Platoon to work traffic assignments. Here is the list--you -can have this list. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Captain LAWRENCE. This necessitated me making some changes so that -the three-wheel motorcycle officers could be taken off of corner -assignments and placed on patrol assignments in the downtown area, and -those assignments, or some of those patrol assignments are shown on the -last page of this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Captain LAWRENCE. The changes you can see were made in ink. There was -one particular assignment, on page 3, that we had eliminated because we -understood that the Highland Park Police would cover Lemmon and Loma -Alto and then when these additional men were given to us, two officers -were placed back on this assignment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked the additional list of 19 men, which list -you received on November 22, as Capt. P. W. Lawrence, July 24, 1964, -Exhibit No. 3. Let me ask you some specific questions about it--about -the men who were stationed in the area of Dealey Plaza. Did you -question any of these men after the President was shot to determine -whether or not they had seen anyone in the windows of the Texas School -Book Depository Building? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; however, when I questioned the men--the men had -already been--one man that I questioned had already been questioned -by Mr. Sorrels and this would be Officer J. E. Murphy and two other -men that I questioned were Officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White. I -questioned J. W. Foster regarding the men that were alongside him on -the overpass, on the triple underpass where the President was to go. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Sergeant Harkness? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't question Sergeant Harkness. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer King--W. K. King? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer J. B. Allen? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer W. H. Denham? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer W. E. Barnett? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer J. M. Smith? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer E. L. Smith? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anyone in the police department who -questioned those men after the assassination to determine whether -or not they had been observing the windows of the Texas School Book -Depository Building and had seen anybody in those buildings? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I know that all of these men have been questioned and -that they were calling all of these men to be questioned and that this -investigation was being handled by the Secret Service, and this is one -reason why I did not question these men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you received any information that any of these men -did see anybody at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository -Building, particularly on the sixth floor? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I have never received any information from any of -these men that they saw anybody up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have answered that you did not conduct an -investigation of these men and that you thought the Secret Service did; -let me ask the further question--has the police department conducted an -investigation of these men who were at the intersections of Main and -Houston and Elm and Houston? - -Captain LAWRENCE. To my knowledge, they were--there was an -investigation requested. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By the police department? - -Captain LAWRENCE. By the police department--that reports were requested -from these men, by the supervisory officers, but--and by the inspectors -and the deputy chiefs--but I was not given any such assignment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me turn to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald and ask -you when did you first receive instructions as to the moving of Lee -Harvey Oswald to the county jail? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I received no original instructions on the movement -of Lee Harvey Oswald. I was scheduled to be off on Saturday and Sunday. -These were my days off. On Saturday at approximately 10 a.m., I came -down in civilian clothes and I observed a large crowd of people around -the county courthouse and I had knowledge from what I had heard on -television and I had seen on television and heard on the radio that -charges had already been filed against Lee Harvey Oswald, so it was -my assumption that he would be transferred to the county jail, but I -had no knowledge of it; and seeing this large crowd gathering down at -this part of town, I immediately called the traffic office and started -trying to contact Sergeant Harkness and finally got him down there and -told him to get some other traffic officers down there and I remained -down at this location until approximately 6:30 p.m. when Captain -Thompson came on duty. While down there and during the afternoon, I -noticed there was a large crowd gathered and there seemed to be a need -for barricades or ropes or something to keep these people behind these -ropes and across the street from the county jail, and I called Chief -Batchelor's office, and Officer Art Hammett answered the phone and I -told Art Hammett there was a large crowd down there, and this was early -in the afternoon--I would say about 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon on -Saturday--and there was a large crowd there and I believe that ropes or -barricades were necessary to keep these people out of the streets and -across the street at Dealey Plaza, and Hammett said he would try to get -in touch with Chief Batchelor and let me know. - -On Saturday afternoon I got a call on the radio, and, of course, it -was a three-wheel motorcycle with the radio going, and Officer Hammett -asked me and I am assuming he was in the dispatcher's office at the -time, and he asked me if the ropes that I requested were to block off -the street for motor vehicle traffic and I told him it was not, and he -said, "Well, permission is granted." Then, we borrowed some rope from -the sheriff's office and we roped off this block across the street from -the county jail. We also got some barricades from Elm and Houston where -a--where part of the street had been blocked off there anyway, and we -blocked off the sidewalks on the county jail side--at Houston and Elm -Street, and Main Street, and the only persons we allowed in this area -were television, radio, and news media people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take any further precautions on Sunday? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes. By the way, when Captain Thompson came on, I -contacted him by radio and asked him to meet me down there and he -relieved me and our solo motorcycle detail was placed down there in -the evening. When I got home I called Chief Lunday at home and I told -him--that's when I heard that the transfer was supposed to be made -the following morning, that there would be a need for some more men -down there and that I would be down there and I would get as many -men as I could on the location. So on Sunday morning I arrived down -there and I'm going to guess at the time as approximately 8 a.m. I -first went by the office and I picked up some police reserves in my -car and took about four of them down there with me, and then I had -some motorcycle officers that were not already stationed--upstairs on -the third floor--and I had them meet me down there too. It was still -roped off and the crowds started gathering and I personally instructed -Sergeant Steigel to go down there and Sergeant Bellah, and most of -the men down there, I personally instructed them that when Oswald was -brought in down there, that they were not to look at Oswald, that -they were to face the crowd and they were not to worry about anything -but keeping their eyes on that crowd, because I estimated there were -approximately 500 people down there at that time, and these officers -were specifically instructed on that. And when Chief Lunday showed -up at approximately--sometime between 9:30 and 10, he showed up--he -arrived in civilian clothes--he saw that there was a large crowd there -too and we were concerned about the security of Oswald, and I expressed -this opinion to Chief Lunday and Lieutenant Southard also. There with -me at the time too was Captain Solomon, who also showed up down there. -The only time that I knew that anything had happened was when Sheriff -Bill Decker came out of his office and came by the cameras there where -the vehicle was supposed to enter the county jail entrance there, and -he waved for me to come over to him. I was across the street at that -time and he told me that Oswald had been shot in the basement of the -city hall. So, after this was confirmed, we then sent some more men to -Parkland Hospital to seal it off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the stationing of men -along the route that it was expected that Oswald was to follow? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any specific instructions from any of -your superiors on stationing your men around Dealey Plaza or the county -jail or did the precautions that you took--were they undertaken on your -own initiative? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I would say that I notified Chief Lunday of the -situation down there and then he told me to go ahead and station these -men there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But there never was any independent effort made by your -superior officers to contact you prior to the move and say, "Captain -Lawrence, we are going to move Oswald at such and such a time, or in -such and such a way, and take such and such precautions"? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I believe though that Chief Lunday was in -communication with headquarters because he went immediately after -he talked to Lieutenant Southard and I and saw this crowd too, he -immediately went inside the sheriff's office and it is my assumption -that he had communication with them because he came out a little later -and told me about the plans--how Oswald was to be brought down and that -he would not be brought down in the armored truck, but that the armored -truck would come Elm Street and would make a left turn off of Elm, and -when it did, this car with the detectives in it would come first and -the car with Oswald would turn into the ramp there at the county jail -and they would lower the gates immediately. At that time Chief Lunday -was in charge down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you informed of this plan to bring Oswald in -a police car; how long before you actually knew Oswald was shot did you -learn about that plan? - -Captain LAWRENCE. I would say approximately 10 minutes--I'm just -guessing--I know it was just shortly after that that I heard he was -shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed that the armored car had arrived at -the police station? - -Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had no knowledge of an armored car until Chief -Lunday told me about it and at the same time he was telling me about -it, a sergeant arrived down there from the radio patrol and was giving -Chief Lunday some information to the same effect, that the armored car -was going to be used as a decoy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But maybe I didn't make my question clear--was any -information ever passed on to the people at the county jail that the -decoy car had arrived in the city basement? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. I was outside all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have pretty well covered everything here. I'm -going to ask you if you will sign Exhibit No. 1 and also Exhibits Nos. -2 and 3. - -Captain LAWRENCE. This man did not show up and he was given some other -assignment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the No. 3 man there on that list? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; he was given some other assignment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark one more paper here--this is a copy of a -letter that you wrote. - -Captain LAWRENCE. That's a copy of a letter that I wrote that you -probably have in the file there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a letter you wrote to Chief Curry on July 15 -detailing what you did on November 22, and I am going to mark it Capt. -P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, and I will -ask you if you will sign that up at the top also. Do you have anything -else, captain, you would like to add? - -Captain LAWRENCE. Oh, I guess this probably has been mentioned to you -before--there are some people that were down there--Captain Solomon -and I discussed the fact that we were rather shocked at the crowd that -was down there when they announced that Oswald--when they heard that -Oswald had been shot--about them cheering, but this was an actual fact, -and I thought it was a terrible thing myself, it broke me up too, this -killing of the President, but as I said, this was a real shock that -these people cheered like this. This just showed the attitude of some -of them that were down there. I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and taking this time. -All of the members of your department who have been here have really -given very generously of their time and cooperated and we are all very -appreciative of it. - -Captain LAWRENCE. I did learn of some new security measures from -this unfortunate experience. I refer to the manner in which the -Secret Service handled the transfer of President Johnson and his -party from Parkland Hospital, the plans for this transfer in unmarked -cars, the solo escorts and positioning of the vehicles en route to -Love Field. First, the Secret Service personnel made arrangements -for three unmarked cars to be placed in a "ready" position at the -rear of Parkland without the knowledge of the news media or other -persons. Three cars were so arranged. The first car was Chief Curry's -unmarked car, the second car was my unmarked car, and the third car -was Inspector Putnam's unmarked car. I was instructed to have two solo -officers ready to go but not to give them their destination until we -started to leave--these instructions were from the Secret Service. -When President Johnson came out of the hospital with his party he was -immediately taken to Chief Curry's lead vehicle. Other White House -and Secret Service personnel got in my car, as they did in Inspector -Putnam's car. I instructed the solo officers to escort us to Love -Field. As we left Parkland Hospital the solo officers started using -their sirens and shortly thereafter Chief Curry came on the police -radio and requested them to cut the sirens off. Chief Curry repeated -these instructions about three or four times and after several blocks -the officers cut off their sirens. One of the Secret Service men in -my vehicle instructed me as to how to position my vehicle to the -rear of Chief Curry's car and I also noticed in the rear view mirror -that Inspector Putnam's vehicle was positioned in such a way that it -would be difficult for any other car to overtake this escort. After -the solo motorcycle officers cut off their sirens they went ahead and -stopped traffic at various intersections so that it was not necessary -for any of the cars in President Johnson's party to stop. I was quite -impressed with the quick efficient planning of the Secret Service in -getting the President and his party safely to the airport and the -security precautions taken while en route to Love Field. You know--this -thing--something like this, this just really hits you. You are so busy -you don't know it, but it just finally really hits you down deep. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There's not very much I guess really that can be -said--it's one of these events that is so shocking in our lifetime. - -Captain LAWRENCE. Too--Chief Curry was really torn up about it--out at -Parkland Hospital he held himself real good--I guess we all were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we all were. Thank you very much for coming. - -Captain LAWRENCE. Thank you. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RONALD G. WITTMUS - -The following affidavit was executed by Ronald G. Wittmus on July 30, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Ronald G. Wittmus, have reviewed the testimony of Sebastian Francis -Latona before The President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. - -I have conducted independent examinations of the items which were the -subject of Mr. Latona's testimony and on the basis of these independent -examinations I reached the same conclusions reached by Sebastian -Francis Latona. - -Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) Ronald G. Wittmus, - RONALD G. WITTMUS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY - - -The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on July 30, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Thomas J. Kelley, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to -Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C. - -2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey -Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain -Fritz; Forrest Sorrels of the United States Secret Service; Postal -Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas Police Officers. - -3. It is my recollection that during this interrogation, Oswald was not -asked about nor did he speak of a trip that he took to Mexico or plans -that he had to go to Cuba. - -Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) Thomas J. Kelley, - THOMAS J. KELLEY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER - - -The following affidavit was executed by Robert A. Frazier on July 31, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies -of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the -President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. -Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. - -I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the -items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's testimonies and that -on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same -conclusions reached by Mr. Cunningham. - -Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) Robert A. Frazier, - ROBERT A. FRAZIER. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM - - -The following affidavit was executed by Cortlandt Cunningham on July -31, 1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Cortlandt Cunningham, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of -Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, before the President's -Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I -agree with the conclusions stated therein. - -I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the -items which were the subject of Mr. Frazier's testimonies and that -on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same -conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier. - -Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) Cortlandt Cunningham, - CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF CHARLES L. KILLION - - -The following affidavit was executed by Charles L. Killion on July 31, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, Charles L. Killion, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies -of Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, and testimonies -of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the -President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. -Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. - -I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the -items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's and Mr. Frazier's -testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I -reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier and Mr. Cunningham. - -Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) Charles L. Killion, - CHARLES L. KILLION. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ROY SANSOM TRULY - - -The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building -in Dallas, Texas. - -2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second -floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut -because of a closing mechanism on the door. - -Signed this 3d day of August 1964, at Dallas Tex. - - (S) Roy Sansom Truly, - ROY SANSOM TRULY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF FORREST V. SORRELS - - -The following affidavit was executed by Forrest V. Sorrels on August 6, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Forrest V. Sorrels, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am the Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas district of the -United States Secret Service. - -2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey -Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain -Fritz; Thomas J. Kelley, Inspector of the United States Secret Service; -Postal Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas City Detectives. - -3. I do not recall that during this interrogation Oswald being -questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to -Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. - -Signed this 6th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. - - (S) Forrest V. Sorrels, - FORREST V. SORRELS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN JOE HOWLETT - - -The following affidavit was executed by John Joe Howlett on August 11, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, John Joe Howlett, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am an agent in the Dallas office of the United States Secret -Service. - -2. On March 20, 1964, counsel to the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy timed me as I walked from the -southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom by -the stairway in the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -3. During this test, I carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the -sixth floor northerly along the east aisle to the northeast corner, -then westerly along the north wall past the elevators to the northwest -corner. There I placed the rifle on the floor. I then entered the -stairwell, walked down the stairway to the second floor landing, and -then into the lunchroom. - -4. After the second test which was run at a "fast walk," I was not -short-winded. - -Signed this 11th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. - - (S) John Joe Howlett, - JOHN JOE HOWLETT. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MARRION L. BAKER - - -The following affidavit was executed by Marrion L. Baker on August 11, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Marrion L. Baker, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am an officer in the Dallas Police Department. - -2. On November 22, 1963, upon hearing shots I rode my motorcycle 180 to -200 feet, parked the motorcycle, and ran 45 feet to the Texas School -Book Depository Building. - -3. On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions -after hearing the shots on November 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, -I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository -Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot. - -Signed this 13th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. - - (S) Marrion L. Baker, - MARRION L. BAKER. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT BROCK - - -The following affidavit was executed by Robert Brock on August 5, 1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - -I, Robert Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: - -I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, -I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was -interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation -concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to -Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald -Kennedy. - -I have been shown the written report[C] of the results of my interview -with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written -report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, -1963. - -Signed this 5th day of August 1964. - - (S) Robert Brock, - ROBERT BROCK. - -[C] This report was labeled Robert Brock Exhibit A. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MARY BROCK - - -The following affidavit was executed by Mary Brock on August 5, 1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - -I, Mary Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: - -I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, -I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was -interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation -concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to -Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald -Kennedy. - -I have been shown the written report[D] of the results of my interview -with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written -report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, -1963. - -Signed this 5th day of August 1964. - - (S) Mary Brock, - MARY BROCK. - -[D] This report was labeled Mary Brock Exhibit A. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HAROLD RUSSELL - - -The following affidavit was executed by Harold Russell on August 10, -1964. - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - -I, Harold Russell, being duly sworn, depose as follows: - -I now reside at U.S. Highway 77 S., Davis, Okla. On January 21, 1964, I -was residing at on North Clinton, Dallas, Texas, and was employed as a -salesman by Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 East Jefferson, Dallas, -Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents John -T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation -concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee -Harvey Oswald, the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and -the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. - -I have been shown the written report[E] of the results of the interview -by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written -report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, -1963. - -Signed this 10th day of August 1964. - - (S) Harold Russell, - HAROLD RUSSELL. - -[E] This report was labeled Russell Exhibit A. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID GOLDSTEIN - - -The following affidavit was executed by David Goldstein on August 13, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, David Goldstein, 6111 Averill Way, Apartment D, Dallas, Tex., being -duly sworn say: - -1. I am and have been for several years owner of Dave's House of Guns, -2544 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas. - -2. Dave's House of Guns has handled Smith and Wesson .38/200 British -Service Revolvers. Within ten days after the assassination of President -Kennedy, F.B.I. agents called on me to determine if Dave's House of -Guns had any record of handling a Smith and Wesson .38/200 British -Service Revolver, serial number V 510210 and assembly number 65248. We -had no such record. - -3. After being shown a photograph of the above gun, I showed the F.B.I. -agents a catalog which listed such guns and indicated that they were -handled by George Rose and Company, Inc., 1225 South Grand Avenue, Los -Angeles, California. - -Signed this 13th day of August 1964. - - (S) David Goldstein, - DAVID GOLDSTEIN. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. - -"Air Force 1" usually is in italics, but in a few instances was printed -upright as "Air Force I". - -Page 153: "Mr. Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the -lineup." probably was asked by Mr. Ball, not stated by Mr. Dhority. - -Page 160: "I could have heard, that" has misprinted comma after "heard". - -Page 163: "we we still" probably is misprint for "we were still". - -Page 195: "he had make a snapshot" is misprint for "made". - -Page 247: "until my discharge in 1944" was printed that way, but is -inconsistent with being after World War II. - -Page 260: "Will you state you name" is misprint for "your". - -Page 263: "running, from the scene" has misprinted comma after -"running". - -Page 272: "I took here into the" is misprint for "her". - -Page 284: "no bad pressure?" is misprint for "back". - -Page 302: "sit and each lunch with him" is misprint for "eat". - -Page 326: "raise your right and be sworn" is missing "hand". - -Page 333: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available -at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 359: "Dallas Time Herald Television Station" is misprint for -"Times". - -Page 422: "in both the know and questioned" is misprint for "known". - -Page 457: "deal with an particular" is misprint for "any". - -Page 436: "distoration" was printed that way. - -Page 539: "that we taken" probably is missing "had". - - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings -Vol. VII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V7 *** - -***** This file should be named 44007.txt or 44007.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44007/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - -Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions -will be renamed. - -Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no -one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation -(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without -permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, -set forth in the General Terms of Use part of this license, apply to -copying and distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works to -protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm concept and trademark. Project -Gutenberg is a registered trademark, and may not be used if you -charge for the eBooks, unless you receive specific permission. If you -do not charge anything for copies of this eBook, complying with the -rules is very easy. You may use this eBook for nearly any purpose -such as creation of derivative works, reports, performances and -research. They may be modified and printed and given away--you may do -practically ANYTHING with public domain eBooks. Redistribution is -subject to the trademark license, especially commercial -redistribution. - - - -*** START: FULL LICENSE *** - -THE FULL PROJECT GUTENBERG LICENSE -PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU DISTRIBUTE OR USE THIS WORK - -To protect the Project Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting the free -distribution of electronic works, by using or distributing this work -(or any other work associated in any way with the phrase "Project -Gutenberg"), you agree to comply with all the terms of the Full Project -Gutenberg-tm License available with this file or online at - www.gutenberg.org/license. - - -Section 1. General Terms of Use and Redistributing Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic works - -1.A. By reading or using any part of this Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic work, you indicate that you have read, understand, agree to -and accept all the terms of this license and intellectual property -(trademark/copyright) agreement. If you do not agree to abide by all -the terms of this agreement, you must cease using and return or destroy -all copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in your possession. -If you paid a fee for obtaining a copy of or access to a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work and you do not agree to be bound by the -terms of this agreement, you may obtain a refund from the person or -entity to whom you paid the fee as set forth in paragraph 1.E.8. - -1.B. "Project Gutenberg" is a registered trademark. It may only be -used on or associated in any way with an electronic work by people who -agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement. There are a few -things that you can do with most Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works -even without complying with the full terms of this agreement. See -paragraph 1.C below. There are a lot of things you can do with Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works if you follow the terms of this agreement -and help preserve free future access to Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works. See paragraph 1.E below. - -1.C. The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation ("the Foundation" -or PGLAF), owns a compilation copyright in the collection of Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works. Nearly all the individual works in the -collection are in the public domain in the United States. If an -individual work is in the public domain in the United States and you are -located in the United States, we do not claim a right to prevent you from -copying, distributing, performing, displaying or creating derivative -works based on the work as long as all references to Project Gutenberg -are removed. Of course, we hope that you will support the Project -Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting free access to electronic works by -freely sharing Project Gutenberg-tm works in compliance with the terms of -this agreement for keeping the Project Gutenberg-tm name associated with -the work. You can easily comply with the terms of this agreement by -keeping this work in the same format with its attached full Project -Gutenberg-tm License when you share it without charge with others. - -1.D. The copyright laws of the place where you are located also govern -what you can do with this work. Copyright laws in most countries are in -a constant state of change. If you are outside the United States, check -the laws of your country in addition to the terms of this agreement -before downloading, copying, displaying, performing, distributing or -creating derivative works based on this work or any other Project -Gutenberg-tm work. The Foundation makes no representations concerning -the copyright status of any work in any country outside the United -States. - -1.E. Unless you have removed all references to Project Gutenberg: - -1.E.1. The following sentence, with active links to, or other immediate -access to, the full Project Gutenberg-tm License must appear prominently -whenever any copy of a Project Gutenberg-tm work (any work on which the -phrase "Project Gutenberg" appears, or with which the phrase "Project -Gutenberg" is associated) is accessed, displayed, performed, viewed, -copied or distributed: - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - -1.E.2. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is derived -from the public domain (does not contain a notice indicating that it is -posted with permission of the copyright holder), the work can be copied -and distributed to anyone in the United States without paying any fees -or charges. If you are redistributing or providing access to a work -with the phrase "Project Gutenberg" associated with or appearing on the -work, you must comply either with the requirements of paragraphs 1.E.1 -through 1.E.7 or obtain permission for the use of the work and the -Project Gutenberg-tm trademark as set forth in paragraphs 1.E.8 or -1.E.9. - -1.E.3. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is posted -with the permission of the copyright holder, your use and distribution -must comply with both paragraphs 1.E.1 through 1.E.7 and any additional -terms imposed by the copyright holder. Additional terms will be linked -to the Project Gutenberg-tm License for all works posted with the -permission of the copyright holder found at the beginning of this work. - -1.E.4. Do not unlink or detach or remove the full Project Gutenberg-tm -License terms from this work, or any files containing a part of this -work or any other work associated with Project Gutenberg-tm. - -1.E.5. Do not copy, display, perform, distribute or redistribute this -electronic work, or any part of this electronic work, without -prominently displaying the sentence set forth in paragraph 1.E.1 with -active links or immediate access to the full terms of the Project -Gutenberg-tm License. - -1.E.6. You may convert to and distribute this work in any binary, -compressed, marked up, nonproprietary or proprietary form, including any -word processing or hypertext form. However, if you provide access to or -distribute copies of a Project Gutenberg-tm work in a format other than -"Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other format used in the official version -posted on the official Project Gutenberg-tm web site (www.gutenberg.org), -you must, at no additional cost, fee or expense to the user, provide a -copy, a means of exporting a copy, or a means of obtaining a copy upon -request, of the work in its original "Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other -form. Any alternate format must include the full Project Gutenberg-tm -License as specified in paragraph 1.E.1. - -1.E.7. Do not charge a fee for access to, viewing, displaying, -performing, copying or distributing any Project Gutenberg-tm works -unless you comply with paragraph 1.E.8 or 1.E.9. - -1.E.8. You may charge a reasonable fee for copies of or providing -access to or distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works provided -that - -- You pay a royalty fee of 20% of the gross profits you derive from - the use of Project Gutenberg-tm works calculated using the method - you already use to calculate your applicable taxes. The fee is - owed to the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark, but he - has agreed to donate royalties under this paragraph to the - Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation. Royalty payments - must be paid within 60 days following each date on which you - prepare (or are legally required to prepare) your periodic tax - returns. Royalty payments should be clearly marked as such and - sent to the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation at the - address specified in Section 4, "Information about donations to - the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation." - -- You provide a full refund of any money paid by a user who notifies - you in writing (or by e-mail) within 30 days of receipt that s/he - does not agree to the terms of the full Project Gutenberg-tm - License. You must require such a user to return or - destroy all copies of the works possessed in a physical medium - and discontinue all use of and all access to other copies of - Project Gutenberg-tm works. - -- You provide, in accordance with paragraph 1.F.3, a full refund of any - money paid for a work or a replacement copy, if a defect in the - electronic work is discovered and reported to you within 90 days - of receipt of the work. - -- You comply with all other terms of this agreement for free - distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm works. - -1.E.9. If you wish to charge a fee or distribute a Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic work or group of works on different terms than are set -forth in this agreement, you must obtain permission in writing from -both the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation and Michael -Hart, the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark. Contact the -Foundation as set forth in Section 3 below. - -1.F. - -1.F.1. Project Gutenberg volunteers and employees expend considerable -effort to identify, do copyright research on, transcribe and proofread -public domain works in creating the Project Gutenberg-tm -collection. Despite these efforts, Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works, and the medium on which they may be stored, may contain -"Defects," such as, but not limited to, incomplete, inaccurate or -corrupt data, transcription errors, a copyright or other intellectual -property infringement, a defective or damaged disk or other medium, a -computer virus, or computer codes that damage or cannot be read by -your equipment. - -1.F.2. LIMITED WARRANTY, DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES - Except for the "Right -of Replacement or Refund" described in paragraph 1.F.3, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation, the owner of the Project -Gutenberg-tm trademark, and any other party distributing a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work under this agreement, disclaim all -liability to you for damages, costs and expenses, including legal -fees. YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO REMEDIES FOR NEGLIGENCE, STRICT -LIABILITY, BREACH OF WARRANTY OR BREACH OF CONTRACT EXCEPT THOSE -PROVIDED IN PARAGRAPH 1.F.3. YOU AGREE THAT THE FOUNDATION, THE -TRADEMARK OWNER, AND ANY DISTRIBUTOR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WILL NOT BE -LIABLE TO YOU FOR ACTUAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR -INCIDENTAL DAMAGES EVEN IF YOU GIVE NOTICE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH -DAMAGE. - -1.F.3. LIMITED RIGHT OF REPLACEMENT OR REFUND - If you discover a -defect in this electronic work within 90 days of receiving it, you can -receive a refund of the money (if any) you paid for it by sending a -written explanation to the person you received the work from. If you -received the work on a physical medium, you must return the medium with -your written explanation. The person or entity that provided you with -the defective work may elect to provide a replacement copy in lieu of a -refund. If you received the work electronically, the person or entity -providing it to you may choose to give you a second opportunity to -receive the work electronically in lieu of a refund. If the second copy -is also defective, you may demand a refund in writing without further -opportunities to fix the problem. - -1.F.4. Except for the limited right of replacement or refund set forth -in paragraph 1.F.3, this work is provided to you 'AS-IS', WITH NO OTHER -WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO -WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PURPOSE. - -1.F.5. Some states do not allow disclaimers of certain implied -warranties or the exclusion or limitation of certain types of damages. -If any disclaimer or limitation set forth in this agreement violates the -law of the state applicable to this agreement, the agreement shall be -interpreted to make the maximum disclaimer or limitation permitted by -the applicable state law. The invalidity or unenforceability of any -provision of this agreement shall not void the remaining provisions. - -1.F.6. INDEMNITY - You agree to indemnify and hold the Foundation, the -trademark owner, any agent or employee of the Foundation, anyone -providing copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in accordance -with this agreement, and any volunteers associated with the production, -promotion and distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works, -harmless from all liability, costs and expenses, including legal fees, -that arise directly or indirectly from any of the following which you do -or cause to occur: (a) distribution of this or any Project Gutenberg-tm -work, (b) alteration, modification, or additions or deletions to any -Project Gutenberg-tm work, and (c) any Defect you cause. - - -Section 2. Information about the Mission of Project Gutenberg-tm - -Project Gutenberg-tm is synonymous with the free distribution of -electronic works in formats readable by the widest variety of computers -including obsolete, old, middle-aged and new computers. It exists -because of the efforts of hundreds of volunteers and donations from -people in all walks of life. - -Volunteers and financial support to provide volunteers with the -assistance they need are critical to reaching Project Gutenberg-tm's -goals and ensuring that the Project Gutenberg-tm collection will -remain freely available for generations to come. In 2001, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation was created to provide a secure -and permanent future for Project Gutenberg-tm and future generations. -To learn more about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation -and how your efforts and donations can help, see Sections 3 and 4 -and the Foundation information page at www.gutenberg.org - - -Section 3. Information about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive -Foundation - -The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation is a non profit -501(c)(3) educational corporation organized under the laws of the -state of Mississippi and granted tax exempt status by the Internal -Revenue Service. The Foundation's EIN or federal tax identification -number is 64-6221541. Contributions to the Project Gutenberg -Literary Archive Foundation are tax deductible to the full extent -permitted by U.S. federal laws and your state's laws. - -The Foundation's principal office is located at 4557 Melan Dr. S. -Fairbanks, AK, 99712., but its volunteers and employees are scattered -throughout numerous locations. Its business office is located at 809 -North 1500 West, Salt Lake City, UT 84116, (801) 596-1887. Email -contact links and up to date contact information can be found at the -Foundation's web site and official page at www.gutenberg.org/contact - -For additional contact information: - Dr. Gregory B. Newby - Chief Executive and Director - gbnewby@pglaf.org - -Section 4. Information about Donations to the Project Gutenberg -Literary Archive Foundation - -Project Gutenberg-tm depends upon and cannot survive without wide -spread public support and donations to carry out its mission of -increasing the number of public domain and licensed works that can be -freely distributed in machine readable form accessible by the widest -array of equipment including outdated equipment. Many small donations -($1 to $5,000) are particularly important to maintaining tax exempt -status with the IRS. - -The Foundation is committed to complying with the laws regulating -charities and charitable donations in all 50 states of the United -States. Compliance requirements are not uniform and it takes a -considerable effort, much paperwork and many fees to meet and keep up -with these requirements. We do not solicit donations in locations -where we have not received written confirmation of compliance. To -SEND DONATIONS or determine the status of compliance for any -particular state visit www.gutenberg.org/donate - -While we cannot and do not solicit contributions from states where we -have not met the solicitation requirements, we know of no prohibition -against accepting unsolicited donations from donors in such states who -approach us with offers to donate. - -International donations are gratefully accepted, but we cannot make -any statements concerning tax treatment of donations received from -outside the United States. U.S. laws alone swamp our small staff. - -Please check the Project Gutenberg Web pages for current donation -methods and addresses. Donations are accepted in a number of other -ways including checks, online payments and credit card donations. -To donate, please visit: www.gutenberg.org/donate - - -Section 5. General Information About Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works. - -Professor Michael S. Hart was the originator of the Project Gutenberg-tm -concept of a library of electronic works that could be freely shared -with anyone. For forty years, he produced and distributed Project -Gutenberg-tm eBooks with only a loose network of volunteer support. - -Project Gutenberg-tm eBooks are often created from several printed -editions, all of which are confirmed as Public Domain in the U.S. -unless a copyright notice is included. Thus, we do not necessarily -keep eBooks in compliance with any particular paper edition. - -Most people start at our Web site which has the main PG search facility: - - www.gutenberg.org - -This Web site includes information about Project Gutenberg-tm, -including how to make donations to the Project Gutenberg Literary -Archive Foundation, how to help produce our new eBooks, and how to -subscribe to our email newsletter to hear about new eBooks. |