diff options
Diffstat (limited to '44007-0.txt')
| -rw-r--r-- | 44007-0.txt | 59191 |
1 files changed, 59191 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/44007-0.txt b/44007-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..3e76b67 --- /dev/null +++ b/44007-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,59191 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44007 *** + +Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V" symbols are denoted as =V=. Italicized +words are denoted with _underscores_. + + + + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ VII + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII: +Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K. +Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J. +M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens, +William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam +Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity +of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey +Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour +Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C. +N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts, +John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E. +Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W. +Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks, +Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee +Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or +observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; +William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the +purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis, +who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill +Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper, +William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas +School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a +parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of +the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of +the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into +the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas +police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal +Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert +with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper +in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the +assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the +motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers, +assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and +testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade; +Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former +Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the +motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder, +who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda +K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove +Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the +morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, +Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar +Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue +William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the +positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus, +a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert +A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms +identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert +Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity +of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms +store in Dallas. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + Johnny Calvin Brewer 1 + Julia Postal 8 + Warren H. Burroughs 14 + Bob K. Carroll 17 + Thomas Alexander Hutson 26 + C. T. Walker 34 + Gerald Lynn Hill 43 + J. M. Poe 66 + John Gibson 70 + James Putnam 74 + Rio S. Pierce 76 + Calvin Bud Owens 78 + William Arthur Smith 82 + George Jefferson Applin, Jr 85 + Ray Hawkins 91 + L. D. Montgomery 96 + Marvin Johnson 100 + Seymour Weitzman 105 + W. R. Westbrook 109 + Elmer L. Boyd 119 + Robert Lee Studebaker 137 + C. N. Dhority 149, 380 + Richard M. Sims 158 + Richard S. Stovall 186 + Walter Eugene Potts 195 + John P. Adamcik 202 + Henry M. Moore 212 + F. M. Turner 217 + Guy F. Rose 227 + W. E. Perry 232 + Richard L. Clark 235 + Don R. Ables 239 + Daniel Gutierrez Lujan 243 + C. W. Brown 246 + L. C. Graves 251 + James R. Leavelle 260 + W. E. Barnes 270 + J. B. Hicks 286 + Harry D. Holmes 289, 525 + James W. Bookhout 308 + Manning C. Clements 318 + Gregory Lee Olds 322 + H. Louis Nichols 325 + Forrest V. Sorrels 332, 592 + William J. Waldman 360 + Mitchell J. Scibor 370 + Heinz W. Michaelis 372 + J. C. Cason 379 + Roy S. Truly 380, 591 + Warren Caster 386 + Eddie Piper 388 + William H. Shelley 390 + Edward Shields 393 + Sam Guinyard 395 + J. C. Day 401 + Thomas J. Kelley 403, 590 + J. W. Fritz 403 + Mary Jane Robertson 404 + Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 410 + James C. Cadigan 418 + Earlene Roberts 439 + Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough 439 + Kenneth P. O'Donnell 440 + Lawrence F. O'Brien 457 + David F. Powers 472 + Clifton C. Carter 474 + Earle Cabell 476 + Mrs. Earle Cabell 485 + Philip L. Willis 492 + Linda Kay Willis 498 + Helen Markham 499 + Mrs. Donald Baker 507 + James W. Altgens 515 + Buell Wesley Frazier 531 + Joe Marshall Smith 531 + Welcome Eugene Barnett 539 + Eddy Raymond Walthers 544 + James Thomas Tague 552 + Emmett J. Hudson 558 + Edgar Leon Smith, Jr 565 + Abraham Zapruder 569 + Perdue William Lawrence 577 + Ronald G. Wittmus 590 + Robert A. Frazier 590 + Cortlandt Cunningham 591 + Charles L. Killion 591 + John Joe Howlett 592 + Marrion L. Baker 592 + Robert Brock 593 + Mary Brock 593 + Harold Russell 594 + David Goldstein 594 + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Page + Baker Exhibit No. 1 512 + Barnes Exhibit: + A 273 + B 273 + C 273 + D 273 + E 273 + F 275 + Brock (Mary) Exhibit A. 593 + Brock (Robert) Exhibit A. 593 + Cabell Exhibit No. 1 476 + Cadigan Exhibit No.: + 1 419 + 2 419 + 3 419 + 3-A 420 + 4 420 + 5 421 + 6 421 + 7 421 + 8 421 + 9 421 + 10 421 + 11 423 + 12 424 + 13 424 + 14 425 + 15 428 + 16 428 + 17 428 + 18 428 + 19 428 + 20 429 + 21 429 + 22 431 + 23 432 + 24 432 + 25 436 + 26 437 + 27 437 + 28 437 + 29 437 + 30 437 + Dhority Exhibit: + A 154 + B 154 + Gibson Exhibit A 71 + Hill Exhibit: + A 50 + B 52 + C 53 + Holmes Exhibit No.: + 1 292 + 1-A 527 + 2 294 + 2-A 528 + 3 295 + 3-A 529 + 4 297 + 5 307 + 6 307 + Hudson Exhibit No. 1 562 + Kelley Exhibit A 403 + Lawrence Exhibit No.: + 1 579 + 2 585 + 3 586 + 4 589 + Leavelle Exhibit A. 270 + Markham Exhibit No.: + 1 500 + 2 505 + Michaelis Exhibit No.: + 1 374 + 2 377 + 3 377 + 4 378 + 5 378 + Moore Exhibit No. 1 214 + Nichols Exhibit A 332 + Potts Exhibit: + A-1 198 + A-2 198 + B 202 + C 202 + Putnam Exhibit No. 1 75 + Robertson Exhibit No.: + 1 406 + 2 406 + 3 409 + Russell Exhibit A 594 + Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.: + 1 410 + 2 410 + 3 410 + 4 410 + 5 413 + 6 416 + 7 417 + Sims Exhibit A 182 + Sorrels Exhibit No.: + 4 341 + 5 360 + Stovall Exhibit: + A 190 + B 193 + C 195 + D 195 + Studebaker Exhibit: + A 139 + B 139 + C 140 + D 141 + E 142 + F 144 + G 145 + H 146 + I 146 + J 147 + Tague Exhibit No. 1 556 + Turner Exhibit No. 1 222 + Waldman Exhibit No.: + 1 361 + 2 363 + 3 363 + 4 364 + 5 364 + 6 366 + 7 366 + 8 366 + 9 367 + 10 367 + Weitzman Exhibit: + D 108 + E 108 + F 108 + Westbrook Exhibit: + A 114 + B 117 + C 117 + D 117 + Willis Exhibit No. 1 497 + Yarborough Exhibit A 440 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER + +The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April +2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BREWER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. BREWER. Johnny Calvin Brewer. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Brewer? + +Mr. BREWER. Twenty-two. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. BREWER. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102. + +Mr. BELIN. What city and state? + +Mr. BREWER. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? + +Mr. BREWER. Born in Miami, Okla. + +Mr. BELIN. In Oklahoma? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you move to Texas? + +Mr. BREWER. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a +construction company and we moved to Texas. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir? + +Mr. BREWER. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to +Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10 +years in Lockhart. + +Mr. BELIN. You graduated from high school? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school? + +Mr. BREWER. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San +Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's +Shoe Store. I--that was in September, and I got married in December. +And I have been with them ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store? + +Mr. BREWER. In September of 1961. + +Mr. BELIN. Do they assign you to any particular store? + +Mr. BREWER. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for +about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a +store down on Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman? + +Mr. BREWER. I was assistant manager. + +Mr. BELIN. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the address of that shop in Dallas? + +Mr. BREWER. 213 West Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. They made you the manager of that shop? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been manager? + +Mr. BREWER. Since August of 1962. + +Mr. BELIN. From August 1962 on? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Until the present time? + +Mr. BREWER. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store. + +Mr. BELIN. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d? + +Mr. BREWER. Second. + +Mr. BELIN. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were +firing me, but it turned out they weren't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you? + +Mr. BREWER. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, +that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be considered a promotion? + +Mr. BREWER. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would +be considered a promotion. + +Mr. BELIN. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the +day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about +the assassination, Mr. Brewer? + +Mr. BREWER. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, +just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the +bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all +there was. We listened to all of the events. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died? + +Mr. BREWER. I heard a rumor. They said that--one of the Secret Service +men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio +concerning anything that happened that afternoon? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what +they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too +much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated +them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BELIN. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard +on the radio that an officer had been shot? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson +headed toward West Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson? + +Mr. BREWER. Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. How far is Beckley from your store? + +Mr. BREWER. Two blocks. + +Mr. BELIN. Two blocks to the east or to the west? + +Mr. BREWER. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and +the next street is Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street +is Beckley? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, right. + +Mr. BELIN. Is your store located to the north or south side of +Jefferson? + +Mr. BREWER. On the north. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BREWER. I looked up and out towards the street and the police +cars---- + +Mr. BELIN. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all? + +Mr. BREWER. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I +looked up and saw the man enter the lobby. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you +to describe how is--how wide is your store, approximately? + +Mr. BREWER. About 20 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the +sidewalk? + +Mr. BREWER. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the +sidewalk, front doors. + +Mr. BELIN. The front doors? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show +windows on each side. + +Mr. BELIN. This would be, if we were--if we would take a look at the +letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom +part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the +letter, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the +sidewalk and your front door, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as +this lobby area? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street. + +Mr. BELIN. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he +stepped into this lobby area? + +Mr. BREWER. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped +in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did he make the U-turn? + +Mr. BREWER. At Zangs. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the sirens going away? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where +the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when +they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around +and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you +know who the man was at the time you saw him? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you describe the man you saw? + +Mr. BREWER. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150 +pounds is all. + +Mr. BELIN. How tall are you, by the way? + +Mr. BREWER. Six three. + +Mr. BELIN. So you say he was about 5'9"? + +Mr. BREWER. About 5'9". + +Mr. BELIN. And about 150? + +Mr. BREWER. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His +shirt tail was out. + +Mr. BELIN. Any jacket? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What color of trousers, do you remember? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Light or dark? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed? + +Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way? + +Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Light complexioned or dark? + +Mr. BREWER. Light complexioned. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store +there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension +of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward---- + +Mr. BELIN. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not? + +Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going +away? + +Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Going the other way? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How could you tell? + +Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do? + +Mr. BREWER. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West +Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched +him, and he went into the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that? + +Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man? + +Mr. BREWER. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had +seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. +And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed +funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been +running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in +your lobby there? + +Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared. + +Mr. BELIN. He stared? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise? + +Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there +staring. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you +saw him walk into the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BREWER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the +theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket +to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. +She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in +there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen +him. + +So I walked in and Butch Burroughs---- + +Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs? + +Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and +takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if +he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that +description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and +hadn't seen anybody. + +And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits +were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why. + +I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket? + +Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in. + +Mr. BELIN. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box +office? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the +theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see +him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all +the other buildings. + +Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him +purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking? + +Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box +office. + +Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you +walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket? + +Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. You just asked her? + +Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go +in. + +Mr. BELIN. She--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you +remember? + +Mr. BREWER. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description +going in. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do? + +Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. +First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to +the back and it hadn't been opened. + +Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and +a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you +close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to +close it from the inside. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside? + +Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock. + +Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked +around but we couldn't see anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see +him? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time? + +Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark +and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20. +I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs? + +Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there? + +Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard +a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. + +But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went +back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him. + +Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went--Butch went to +the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood +there until the police came. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights +on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him? + +Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from +the back, toward the back. + +Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know +exactly which row he was in from the back? + +Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? + +Mr. BREWER. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then +he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there +was no place I could see. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin +with? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the +alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on +the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a +couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing +there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was +suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there. + +And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him +out. + +And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I +pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of +the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the +back. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald +stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, +and this man hit Patrolman McDonald. + +Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was +Patrolman McDonald? + +Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few +times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man? + +Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to +the show. + +Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first? + +Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who? + +Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the +seats. And then real quick he was back up. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say he was---- + +Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second +and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward +that, and I saw this gun come up and--in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the +air. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air? + +Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun." + +And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun +away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, +still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who +it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they +were hitting him. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him +and they took him out. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the +handcuffs on him? + +Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald +stopped fighting? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around +and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not +resisting arrest." And they took him on outside. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, +whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them +aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all +the people that were in the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you +referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble +or concrete? + +Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo. + +Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him? + +Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far were you from the front door? + +Mr. BREWER. Ten feet. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store +and watched him. + +Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out +in front of your store? + +Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture +store. What is the name of that? + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know--notice how fast this man was walking? + +Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual. + +Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I +don't really know what I was thinking about. + +Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the +theatre? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store? + +Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet--yards. + +Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you +do? + +Mr. BREWER. Then I walked toward the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the +theatre did the police come in, if you can remember? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came +in? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way +bears on this? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked +"Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that +looks like the shirt you saw the man wear? + +Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in +the elbows at all, or not? + +Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice. + +Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt? + +Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before. + +Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything +other than "I am not resisting arrest."? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it? + +Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was. + +Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before +or after they had the handcuffs on him? + +Mr. BREWER. After. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back +and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing +of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. +Do you have any preference on it? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. +I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we +first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded +in this written testimony? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as +stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I +just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell +you what I thought the story was? + +Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mr. BREWER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take +the time to be here. We thank you very much. + +Mr. BREWER. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL + +The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in +the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address, please? + +Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just +in general. + +Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here +to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out +there. + +Mr. BALL. Finished high school there? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it. + +Mr. BALL. In California? + +Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and +came back here. I have been here ever since. + +Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and +officework in connection with theatres. + +Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, +and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in +the office. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; +really, I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where? + +Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas--really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at +the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there? + +Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24. + +Mr. BALL. Same theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and +then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until +they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box +office and worked until 5. + +Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets. + +Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with +school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, +because it is just straight through. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your +box office open? + +Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes +later or something, but that is our regular hours. + +Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around +12:45, 1 o'clock? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and +ticket. + +Mr. BALL. What was his name? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch. + +Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession +counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you +go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and +steps insides, and tears tickets. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we +opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little +transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were +saying again that he had been shot. + +Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President +Kennedy was dead or---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box +office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official +report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone +wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came +out and said that he was officially dead. + +Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, +did you? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about--it was just about +the time all chaos broke loose. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you +opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Some. + +Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24. + +Mr. BALL. Twenty-four? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything +was happening so fast. + +Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets? + +Mrs. POSTAL. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. What was the price of admission? + +Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 +cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket. + +Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't. + +Mr. BALL. Same price? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see +any activity on the street? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer +had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on +Thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time I heard the +sirens--police was racing back and forth. + +Mr. BALL. On Jefferson? + +Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, +"Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, +so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got +in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were +going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know +it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, +Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that +particular theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh. + +Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west. + +Mr. BALL. Its siren on? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast. + +Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, +why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see +the man that ducked? This man that you were---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--I don't +know if you are familiar with the theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre. + +Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In +other words, he ducked right in. + +Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on +his face, and he ducked in. + +Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you +seen him before the car went by, the police went by? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, +as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss +went that way to get in his car. + +Mr. BALL. Who is your boss? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man +ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car. + +Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from +the street? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part +of it. + +Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other +way just at the same time. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually--because I stepped out of the box +office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the +box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up +quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was +standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought +a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around +expecting to see him. + +Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in? + +Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of +business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, +"Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. +So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he +has to be there." So I told him to go back and check--we have exit +doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked +him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. +Well, he just had to be. + +Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was +just standing outside of the door, was he? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk, +and he headed for the theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It was closed? + +Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed. + +Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and +Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that +way. He had come from east going west. + +Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like--I told him--asked him to check everything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he +is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and +examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he +hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody +getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny +about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know +if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running +from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, +and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there." + +So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it +was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, +it fits the description," and I have not--I said I hadn't heard the +description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some +reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the +sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the +description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks +like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this +brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and +medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I +called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and +see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and +what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the +picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, +seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, +police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people +in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were +carrying--well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot +because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, +"I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" +And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit +used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally. + +Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you +know, and that--then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there +and---- + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre +that this officer used the phone? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It was after? + +Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They +were running. + +Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go in? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I--like I said, the public was getting there at that +time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything +and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I +remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like +this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse +(sic) language which--inside. I'd say four or five. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around +him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back. + +Mr. BALL. They were? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way. + +Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises +or cuts on his face? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see any? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh. + +Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the +reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming. + +Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they +had him. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a +live mob scene, that---- + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, +"Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out +to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming +profuse language and--"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to +him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to +Oswald--when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I didn't +know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because +he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, +and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers +was--at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to +try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read +in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, +and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke. + +Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Police station? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the +Thursday following. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on +the 4th of December. Would that be about right? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; I think. + +Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday. + +Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; +because I know I didn't go down until the following week. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on--out of the +theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, +"I'm sure we have got our man----"? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed +at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were +bringing Oswald out. + +Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do +you have any idea? + +Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along +here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is +what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door +there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right +on up in the balcony. + +Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people +do then get by him. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, +"Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going +out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran +up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch +would have seen him. + +Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second +row from the---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. Third. + +Mr. BALL. Third? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over. + +Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the +balcony down there? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and +right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring +you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's +seeing him? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something. + +Mr. BALL. And he could go in? + +Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in. + +Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look +anything like the shirt he had on? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it +is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out. + +Mr. BALL. Outside his pants? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh. + +Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in? + +Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the +corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving. + +Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. You say---- + +Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and +sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on +to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about +it? Do you want to do that? + +Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway. + +Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature? + +Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine. + +Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without +your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS + +The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please. + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I +stopped going to public school in the ninth grade. + +Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private +school 2 days a week over in Highland Park. + +Mr. BALL. You are now? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two. + +Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work +have you been doing? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as +an apprentice, he is an electrician. + +Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I +passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough +points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying +me different. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, +were you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On +weekends I usher. + +Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. During the week? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession. + +Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day. + +Mr. BALL. You do? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And, run the concession? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, +run them off? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out +and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in. + +Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you +usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket. + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and +get an admission ticket. + +Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to +work? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and +some officers, didn't you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put +in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in +front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I +was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked +up the stairs real fast. + +Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there. + +Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come +through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the +struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a +ticket? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but +I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on +upstairs before I saw him." + +Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were +cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a +shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man +came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the +show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the +exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back +out and the police caught him downstairs. + +Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through +the back and the rest of them came in through the front. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back +there? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them. + +Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in +the front? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out +to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the +parking lot, and the other two are upstairs. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any +police officer? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and +that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main +thing. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession. + +Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre +to behind the concession? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the +doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is +straight down this way and another one is straight down this way. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the +shoe salesman; what did you do? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this +door. + +Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I +stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out +to the concession. + +Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the +exit door to the concession? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No. + +Mr. BALL. There was not? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the +police? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really +couldn't tell. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when +they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my +rights," and all that. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you hear? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at +everybody. + +Mr. BALL. He was? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both +hands above his head.] + +Mr. BALL. Anything else? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a +mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and +they put him in the car and went off. + +Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him +from the theatre? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four. + +Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him +out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side. + +Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door +into the car. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of +this man, who arrested him? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the +butt of a shotgun? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written +up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your +signature right now. Which do you prefer? + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read +it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here. + +Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too. + +Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL + +The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CARROLL. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? + +Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born? + +Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High. + +Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school? + +Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at +Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and +on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go +back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on +active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released +from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went +to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them +for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas +Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas +Police Department. + +Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the +radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the +special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, +I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section +and the vice section and the administrative section. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day? + +Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. +for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that +time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m. + +Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day? + +Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street. + +Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform +officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one +detective for each block. + +Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main? + +Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four +blocks, maybe. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot? + +Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was +walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped +in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV +just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the +office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and +I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city +hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository? + +Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting +occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 +o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after +I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I +was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement +and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came +back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that +an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information +on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the +phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated +it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I +come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested +permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. +E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective? + +Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. +He doesn't work in uniform. + +Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes? + +Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, +but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came +out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas +Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five +blocks away--I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and +ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at +the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of +the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the +head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in +the theatre--I don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and +that was all the conversation I heard from her. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lady was? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I have no idea. + +Mr. BALL. Was it the girl who sells tickets? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever met Julia Postal? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I never have. + +Mr. BALL. And where was the lady when you talked to her? + +Mr. CARROLL. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went +through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that +he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with +her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the +balcony. All of the house lights were turned on. + +Mr. BALL. You and Lyons went in the front door then? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or +rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the +balcony. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anyone in the balcony? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, there were people sitting around there. + +Mr. BALL. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well, +the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older +people and so we started back down---- + +Mr. BALL. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for? + +Mr. CARROLL. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called +and checked about the officer. + +Mr. BALL. Who are "they"? + +Mr. CARROLL. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--I don't +know who it was at that time. + +Mr. BALL. What was the description that he gave you? + +Mr. CARROLL. He just gave a general height description and age--just +generally. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what he said. + +Mr. CARROLL. I'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and I +can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it +was all--I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a +detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how +he worded it. + +Mr. BALL. Can you give me the approximate age--around? + +Mr. CARROLL. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something, +like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and +everything like that. + +Mr. BALL. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your +memory, I suppose? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; not as to that. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't make a note of it? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see +anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over +the telephone by the dispatcher? + +Mr. CARROLL. Not that I thought fit it. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to +the lower floor when I heard someone holler something--I believe it was +"Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you +could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and +Lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and I started running and I came up +to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the +left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in +the aisle behind from the left. + +Mr. BALL. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle +and then come up on Oswald's right. + +Mr. BALL. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen? + +Mr. CARROLL. Jerry Hill--Sgt. Jerry Hill. + +Mr. BALL. And then, who came from behind? + +Mr. CARROLL. Ray Hawkins. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"? + +Mr. CARROLL. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony. + +Mr. BALL. And you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle? + +Mr. CARROLL. To the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the +lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through +the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which +row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre. + +Mr. BALL. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the +screen? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was approximately--close to the center of the second +bunch of seats. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle? + +Mr. CARROLL. I saw standing up at the time--Oswald was standing up +there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon +him. + +Mr. BALL. Where was McDonald? + +Mr. CARROLL. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I +saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side. + +Mr. BALL. Were they struggling? + +Mr. CARROLL. Everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a +pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked +the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Who had hold of that pistol at that time? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me +and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, +and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Who put them on him? + +Mr. CARROLL. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--I think it +was Ray Hawkins. + +Mr. BALL. Put them on from behind? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did---- + +Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a +shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see +that? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him? + +Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that +someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get +him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his +arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something. + +I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and +detailing it--I believe it was his right arm. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle? + +Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making +sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of +a vigorous scuffle or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then after that? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald +and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I +think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out +through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front +where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in +our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding +next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't +know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he +got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, +I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the +police station. + +Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he +hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe +those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality" +were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he +hadn't done nothing and stuff like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything? + +Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the +car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't +done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's +wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what +he said. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right +eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here, +somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real +sure. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye? + +Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car. +Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything +right there, we was trying to get him subdued. + +Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud +voice or speaking softly? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult +because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was +pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him," +or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and +after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said +anything I couldn't actually hear it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep +his mouth shut? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came +out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one +man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his +head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when +we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I +say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two +people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did +not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut. + +Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car +ask Oswald if he had shot the President? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the +President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think +most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time. + +Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at +the time? + +Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he +said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol." + +Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You +killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being +asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving +the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as +we could. + +Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it? + +Mr. CARROLL. The pistol? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt +immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the +theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill. + +Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat? + +Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I +think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting +there. + +Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I +was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly +from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the +third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right +into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our +interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery +office. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there +were several standing around there, but they would just take him and +hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and +they more or less come in and we would back off. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office. + +Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you? + +Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson, +Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with +us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't +remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but +he did come down with us. + +Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his +ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons +and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and +taken care of. + +Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before +you got to the personnel office? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it. + +Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that? + +Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I +don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he +waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the +car. + +Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets. + +Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder? + +Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six. + +Mr. BALL. Six bullets? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full. + +Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment +or not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets? + +Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them? + +Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like +bullets. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time? + +Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a +small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to +me like a hammer might have fallen on it. + +Mr. BALL. On the firing pin? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might +have fallen on the cap. + +Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap? + +Mr. CARROLL. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a +glass? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was +just a real light indent. + +Mr. BALL. That was without a glass? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel +department? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day? + +Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting +there. He was there most of the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark. + +Mr. BALL. When was this done? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office. + +Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together. + +Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald +make the mark on the gun? + +Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray +Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe +Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and +I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or +not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I +know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there +and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen +newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it +was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail +this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. +It was so jumbled up there. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally? + +Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I +had possession of it--possession of the gun. + +Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or +the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill. + +Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had +delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six +bullets? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir. + +Mr. BALL. With this group of officers? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you examined them? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. + +Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you +have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and +signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it +on to the Commission. + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch +with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down +and look it over. + +Mr. CARROLL. All right. + +Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in. + +Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED + +The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9, +1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear +that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CARROLL. I do, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Your name is? + +Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll. + +Mr. BELIN. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by +the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, +have you not? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Ball take that? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About what day was that? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day +that would be. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we +didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then +they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has +been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel +2" barrel with wooden handle. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it? + +Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw +it? + +Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my +direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time? + +Mr. CARROLL. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it +pointed in your direction? + +Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not. + +Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it? + +Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it? + +Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt. + +Mr. BELIN. And then? + +Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I +released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill. + +Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station? + +Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or +after you started up the car, if you remember? + +Mr. CARROLL. After. + +Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw +on the inside of the butt of the pistol. + +Mr. BELIN. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol? + +Mr. CARROLL. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the +pistol. + +Mr. BELIN. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is +pointing up also, is that correct? + +Mr. CARROLL. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials? + +Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol? + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you? + +Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police +department. + +Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or +wherever he had it, or not? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it? + +Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police +station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that--he +said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all." + +Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name? + +Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, +but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what +the other one was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from +the identification? + +Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. +I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned. + +Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned? + +Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally. + +Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the +station? + +Mr. CARROLL. No; I didn't hear him say anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an +address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street? + +Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what? + +Mr. CARROLL. Later that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald? + +Mr. CARROLL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it? + +Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the +city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed +this or not, that in any way might be relevant? + +Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we +took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left +him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer. + +Mr. BELIN. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and +then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it +was or was not loaded? + +Mr. CARROLL. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. How many bullets were in it? + +Mr. CARROLL. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I +recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second +trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you +first testified. + +You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign +it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive. + +Mr. CARROLL. I will sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted. + +Mr. CARROLL. All right, fine. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON + +The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April +3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you +solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HUTSON. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name? + +Mr. HUTSON. Thomas A. Hutson. + +Mr. BELIN. And your occupation? + +Mr. HUTSON. Police officer for the city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Hutson? + +Mr. HUTSON. Thirty-five years. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? + +Mr. HUTSON. Nine years. + +Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Dallas? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. High school? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Graduate of high school or not? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What school? + +Mr. HUTSON. Forest Avenue High School. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got out of high school? + +Mr. HUTSON. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general +office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk. + +Mr. BELIN. How long was that? + +Mr. HUTSON. That was in 1947, in July--that is in January of 1947, and +I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the +U.S. Army. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you serve in the Army? + +Mr. HUTSON. Four years. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? + +Mr. HUTSON. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from +there I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I +joined them in October of 1948. + +I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of +1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort +Sam Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do, basically, in Germany? + +Mr. HUTSON. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I +was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing +mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course, +you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway. + +Mr. BELIN. You got back to the States? + +Mr. HUTSON. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston, +Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and +there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics. + +Mr. BELIN. And eventually you were discharged? + +Mr. HUTSON. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there--this was +during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett, +Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was +discharged in July of 1952. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HUTSON. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas & +Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? + +Mr. HUTSON. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year, +and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the +service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the service station business? + +Mr. HUTSON. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold +my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the +Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. What year? + +Mr. HUTSON. 1955. + +Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the +fall of 1963? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have included November 22, 1963? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; it would. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with the +Presidential motorcade on November 22? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood +Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street. + +Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade +passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed? + +Mr. HUTSON. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. To direct traffic? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back +that was surging in the street. + +Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the +signs? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. HUTSON. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19, +involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time? + +Mr. HUTSON. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the +signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United +States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this +location. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. HUTSON. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository +and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in +front of the main entrance. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main +entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do at the bottom of the steps? + +Mr. HUTSON. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, +and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two +officers. + +Mr. BELIN. You were there with two more officers? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were they? + +Mr. HUTSON. They were at the top of the stairs at the door. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know the names of these officers? + +Mr. HUTSON. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J. +B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman. + +Mr. BELIN. Were those officers there when you got there? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they motorcycle officers or not? + +Mr. HUTSON. Solo motorcycle officers. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. HUTSON. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your best judgment? + +Mr. HUTSON. Thirty minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you leave? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was relieved by my sergeant. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you let people go in that said they were employees +within the building? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused +to let anyone enter except police officers. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone leave the building? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was your back to the building? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I +assume? + +Mr. HUTSON. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there. +There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens +coming in, that is what brought the big crowd. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or +anything from the building? + +Mr. HUTSON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from +duty? + +Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come +on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a +police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on +shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that +they weren't sure on the exact location. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this at about the time you were being released? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston, +did he say Elm and Houston? + +Mr. HUTSON. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard. + +Mr. BELIN. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you +were on Main at that time? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I +made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of +time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after +you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head, yes? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard +the first notice over the police radio? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. At times you were working away from your police radio while +you were picking up the signs, is that correct? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance. + +Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak +Cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily? + +Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting? + +Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the +triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East +Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind +10th Street where the officer had been shot. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car +with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was +riding in the back seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car? + +Mr. HUTSON. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't +get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know +whether I would be able to start and go or not. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled +into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of +the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the +telephone to call in. + +I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I +mean their number to call in. + +At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher +give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at +the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson. + +I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the +officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came +running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told +them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the +suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library. + +We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to +Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library +for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into +the basement of the library. + +At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we +returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on +East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, +the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering +the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was? + +Mr. HUTSON. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location, +including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at +Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out +from the basement with their hands over their head. + +One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked +him. A sergeant was there. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding +west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East +Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered +the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any +recovery of any items of clothing? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did that occur? + +Mr. HUTSON. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the +house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the +Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white +jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it +up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The +original description was that he was wearing a white jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of jacket was it? + +Mr. HUTSON. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the zipper type? + +Mr. HUTSON. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards +away from the officer who picked it up. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard +about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. HUTSON. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He +didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on +Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn +to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way +street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of +the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of +the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, +Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door +to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting. + +I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and +not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am +not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at +the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get +in." + +I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description +and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for. + +Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me, +and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door. + +We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there +by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the +center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle +from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the +front in the center section. + +Mr. BELIN. You were on the right center or the left center? + +Mr. HUTSON. I was on the left center. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right +center aisle? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center +aisle. + +Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand +up and searched them while I covered. + +As soon as they were searched--well, I left out that part about the +number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I +walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the +lower floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you count them? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; I counted them. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed +toward the front of the center section, right? + +Mr. HUTSON. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where were the other five? + +Mr. HUTSON. There was two sitting in the center section near the front, +and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats +over, I am not sure whether that was the third row--I put it in my +report---- + +Mr. BELIN. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated +December 3, 1963? + +Mr. HUTSON. The third row from the back and the fifth seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there another person there? + +Mr. HUTSON. That was another person. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was that? + +Mr. HUTSON. That was Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't know it at the time? + +Mr. HUTSON. I didn't know who it was; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then who else? + +Mr. HUTSON. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the +theatre was another man. + +Mr. BELIN. In the back of the last row of the center section? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That accounts for four people. Where were the others? + +Mr. HUTSON. There were two young boys. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were they? + +Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back +row. + +Mr. BELIN. Right center or left center? + +Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left +center section. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other +people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the +rear? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the rear. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you +count? + +Mr. HUTSON. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many +policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards +the front of the center section? Were they searched? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. HUTSON. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the +theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the +right center section aisle. + +As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he +approached this person. I approached from the row behind. + +Mr. BELIN. You approached from the second row from the back? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you see happen? + +Mr. HUTSON. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became +engaged in a struggle. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see who hit whom first? + +Mr. HUTSON. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head, no. + +Mr. HUTSON. No, I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay. + +Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, +but it was dark. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? + +Mr. HUTSON. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and +this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on +the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him +off. + +Mr. BELIN. This person was right-handed? + +You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of +McDonald's face? + +Mr. HUTSON. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm +and put it around this person's throat. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was +originally sitting in. + +At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that +the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand +and held it. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay. + +Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold +this person's right hand. + +Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a +revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right +hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, +on the suspect's right hand? + +Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this +person's right hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay. + +Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, +up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it? + +Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol +snaps. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard +the snap? + +Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat. + +Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that +direction. + +Mr. BELIN. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen? + +Mr. HUTSON. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre? + +Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the +screen. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular? + +Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could +have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking +up in the row of seats in front. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the +suspect say anything? + +Mr. HUTSON. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything? + +Mr. HUTSON. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head no. + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened then? + +Mr. HUTSON. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer +McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on +the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, +we decided to handcuff him. + +We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still +resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this +time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back +behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to +handcuff him. + +At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were +handcuffing. + +Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of +here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was +rushed out of the theatre. + +I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry +Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter? + +Mr. HUTSON. Oswald? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I never did see him again. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know this was Oswald? + +Mr. HUTSON. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and +went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell +them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and +at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is, +he was probably the suspect that shot the officer. + +Mr. BELIN. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with +the assassination? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did the police stop hitting him? + +Mr. HUTSON. I never did ever see them hit him. + +Mr. BELIN. You never saw any police hit him? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of about this +incident that you haven't related here? + +While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing +here for a minute and I will be back. + +Anything else, Officer, you can think of? + +Mr. HUTSON. I can't think of anything else right now. + +Mr. BELIN. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be +a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw? + +Mr. HUTSON. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the +officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on +the lot. + +Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up? + +Mr. HUTSON. Approximately 25 yards. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up? + +Mr. HUTSON. I heard something--someone make the statement that that +looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not +wearing it now. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is this Texaco station? + +Mr. HUTSON. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the +intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of +Crawford and Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when +it was found? + +Mr. HUTSON. One-half block. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know the name of the officer that found it? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened to the jacket? + +Mr. HUTSON. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his +possession. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he gave it to? + +Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook? + +Mr. HUTSON. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house +with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, +but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was +when the officer had it. + +Mr. BELIN. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this +before, or not? + +Mr. HUTSON. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we +arrested in the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and +read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let +the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire +to do either one? + +Mr. HUTSON. I will go ahead and sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas +Police Department, is that correct? + +Mr. HUTSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and +please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in +charge. + +Mr. HUTSON. All right, nice to have seen you all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER + +The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WALKER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please? + +Mr. WALKER. C. T. Walker. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker? + +Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. WALKER. I am 31 years old. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. WALKER. One child. One girl. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. WALKER. Five years in July. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do prior to that? + +Mr. WALKER. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.--I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was +born in Slaton, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mr. WALKER. Slaton, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you you go to high school there? + +Mr. WALKER. I didn't finish high school. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you finish? + +Mr. WALKER. Tenth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in +Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? + +Mr. WALKER. Approximately 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic work. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. I worked--I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my +uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells. + +Mr. BELIN. After that what did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and +worked there 5-1/2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Doing what? + +Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. When was that? + +Mr. WALKER. 1959, July the 27th. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or +so on that day? + +Mr. WALKER. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? + +Mr. WALKER. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about +the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I +didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news +broadcast to find out in more detail what happened. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you cruising alone at that time? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime +to work alone or in pairs? + +Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and +night. + +Mr. BELIN. Day and night? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand? + +Mr. WALKER. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third +platoon, they work two men. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 +in the afternoon? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Ever work with him at all? + +Mr. WALKER. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same +substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite +well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return +to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around +shortly after you heard the news? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or +might have been in the block I don't recall exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean a block away from the fire station? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you called in? + +Mr. WALKER. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They +have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been +shot. + +I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to +my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3. + +And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went +on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call. + +Mr. BELIN. So you went on your own where? + +Mr. WALKER. I went to the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. That is at Elm and Houston? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car? + +Mr. WALKER. Right in front of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got your car parked? + +Mr. WALKER. Went inside the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go inside? + +Mr. WALKER. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway +there and I stayed in there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly +searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, +so I didn't go upstairs. + +Mr BELIN. What did you do when you were downstairs? + +Mr. WALKER. We were checking persons as they came in the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what? + +Mr. WALKER. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen. + +Mr. BELIN. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you +got down there? + +Mr. WALKER. Ten or fifteen minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the building sealed off at that time? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not? + +Mr. WALKER. No; they didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. WALKER. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had +been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up +to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the +car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene. + +In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where +Officer Tippit was killed. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Officer Tippit's car still there? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was still there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car +or not? + +Mr. WALKER. I didn't really look real close. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witnesses there? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't get out. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. WALKER. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street +that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at +Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the +lawn of the library. + +I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, +and he was even south of Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him? + +Mr. WALKER. He was over a block. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person +fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of +the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the +back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then +surrounded the library. + +Mr. BELIN. You were not the one that put out the first description of +the suspect they sought? + +Mr. WALKER. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as +to what you were looking for? + +Mr. WALKER. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored +coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. About 30 years old, I think he said. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library? + +Mr. WALKER. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the +other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered +everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this the upstairs? + +Mr. WALKER. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get +to it. + +Mr. BELIN. Something like a basement? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone +came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that +he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's +see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I +soon determined he wasn't the one. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. WALKER. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. +I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident +that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising +up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long +white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the +church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence +there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he +was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I +said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I +didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked +at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised +up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course +that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us." + +I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle." + +Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog. + +Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, +when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed +to be at the theatre on Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. WALKER. Texas Theatre; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WALKER. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived +there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up +on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but +he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And +there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, +and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man +told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person +that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats +several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had +seen him do, or not? + +Mr. WALKER. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, +kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into +the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all? + +Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared. + +Mr. BELIN. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to? + +Mr. WALKER. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, this was at the back of the theatre? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came? + +Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the +back of the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the +back of the theatre? + +Mr. WALKER. I walked--McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he +walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I +jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we +started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he +was slightly in front of me. + +Mr. BELIN. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. +N. McDonald and yourself? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. The three of you came in from the back? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just +don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Those are the three you remember? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right +center or the left center aisle? + +Mr. WALKER. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle +that you were going up? + +Mr. WALKER. Be the far left aisle, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Next to the wall? + +Mr. WALKER. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a +row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another +row of seats. + +Mr. BELIN. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which +would be to the left of the center row of seats? + +Mr. WALKER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay; just tell what happened. + +Mr. WALKER. There were two white males sitting approximately in the +center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what +point they come on. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many people was seated down on the first floor? + +Mr. WALKER. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, +who turned out to be Oswald--I didn't know at that time it was him--and +two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the +seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe +it, south of the south aisle, what I call it. + +Mr. BELIN. You were coming up the north aisle? + +Mr. WALKER. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of +the show. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recall then a total of six people? + +Mr. WALKER. That is all I recall seeing. + +Mr. BELIN. The people behind the man that you later found out to be +Oswald, how far were they behind? + +Mr. WALKER. They were about three or four or five seats behind him. + +Mr. BELIN. In what row were they? + +Mr. WALKER. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to +the last. + +Mr. BELIN. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. WALKER. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the +back. + +Mr. BELIN. Fourth or fifth row from the back? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting +together in the center? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You came up and approached those people? + +Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached them from the---- + +Mr. BELIN. Right? + +Mr. WALKER. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center +aisle. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn? + +Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that? + +Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand +up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the +holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one +on the right. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at other people? + +Mr. WALKER. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I +didn't know who they were. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. WALKER. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, +and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we +approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him +from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, +had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him? + +Mr. WALKER. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him +slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting. + +Mr. BELIN. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald +approached Oswald from Oswald's right? + +Mr. WALKER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you? + +Mr. WALKER. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from +McDonald's aisle. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what happened? + +Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, +I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. WALKER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up? + +Mr. WALKER. No; he faced McDonald. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your +hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I +call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald +put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and +McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the +right hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Looking in whose? + +Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of +his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand +first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and +Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his +arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back +over the seat. + +At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know +whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, +but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, +Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had +came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you +see by his belt? + +Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you +see then? + +Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Handle of what? + +Mr. WALKER. The revolver. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it +out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. + +Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not +he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was +a detective. + +Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate +by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an +awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun. + +The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and +pointed out at about a 45° angle. + +I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up +behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and +the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed +slightly toward the screen, what I call. + +Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it? + +Mr. WALKER. A real light click, real light. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat? + +Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, +and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was +moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And +some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't." + +And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people +around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it +appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from +everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay, what happened then? + +Mr. WALKER. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm +around," and said, "I have the handcuffs." + +He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him." + +I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and +Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his +right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and +turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north. + +And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and +we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had +came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front. + +He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality." + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to +whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging +blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hit Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Hutson hit Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting +arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember? + +Mr. WALKER. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back +there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun." + +Mr. BELIN. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre? + +Mr. WALKER. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I +protest this police brutality." + +People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We +want him." + +Mr. BELIN. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination +of the President? + +Mr. WALKER. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, +I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were after him, you were after him for what? + +Mr. WALKER. For the killing of Officer Tippit. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right +door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. +We sat in the back seat with him. + +Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know +who they were, that rode down, too. + +There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down. + +Mr. BELIN. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until +the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way? + +Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall, no. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police +station? + +Mr. WALKER. As we were driving down there, yes; he said---- + +Mr. BELIN. Who was he? + +Mr. WALKER. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this +all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, +"I know my rights." + +And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest +because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police +officer. + +And he said, "Police officer been killed?" + +And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder." + +And I said, "You might find out." + +And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die." + +And that is all I recall. + +Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, +or not? + +Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he +did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, +he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been +to jail. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre? + +Mr. WALKER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he was carrying the gun? + +Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on? + +Mr. WALKER. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair +of black pants. + +Mr. BELIN. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall? + +Mr. WALKER. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like +that. + +Mr. BELIN. What color hair? + +Mr. WALKER. I would say sandy, the best I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Sandy, by that, you mean blond? + +Mr. WALKER. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Some shade of brown? + +Mr. WALKER. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in +my opinion. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it some shade of brown? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes; the best I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him on your way to the police station? + +Mr. WALKER. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit +excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can +recall going down. + +Mr. BELIN. After you got down there, what did you do with him? + +Mr. WALKER. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went +back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room. + +I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with +him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed +with his hands behind him. + +I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with +a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of card it was? + +Mr. WALKER. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?" + +Mr. BELIN. He--had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. I believe he had. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WALKER. And he said, "No, that is not my real name." + +And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill +the officer?" + +And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because +you were scared of being arrested for something?" + +And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared +now?" + +Mr. BELIN. Did he look like he was scared? + +Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a +bit nervous. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during +that time that he was with you? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I can't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you +had with him? + +Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and +some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald +had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me +two more." Or something like that. + +But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the +time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over. + +I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, +and that is the only conversation I had with anyone. + +Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald +had, did you? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details +of the arrest. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of +Oswald? + +Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" +letter. + +Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did +put what conversation we had. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you +said to him? + +Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out +he was a suspect in the assassination? + +Mr. WALKER. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that +he was the suspect. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination? + +Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual +killing of the President. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be +relevant? + +Mr. WALKER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this +deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How long had you known Officer Tippit? + +Mr. WALKER. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I +first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and +worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there +all the time. + +I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training +and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, +I know, maybe 2 or 3 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no +call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call +for--I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the +suspect in the assassination? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you +have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected +his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. WALKER. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was +suspicious of him as a suspect. + +Mr. BELIN. Why do you believe that? + +Mr. WALKER. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made +good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally +good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above +normal. + +Mr. BELIN. Why do you think he stopped this man? + +Mr. WALKER. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he +probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he +would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the +assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him? + +Mr. WALKER. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and +it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he +fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it +is the suspect. You just don't do it. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, +or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting +or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the +President's investigation? + +Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while +until I got off. + +Mr. BELIN. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day? + +Mr. WALKER. That would have been Saturday. + +Mr. BELIN. Or did you work on Saturday? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any +investigation of any kind. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you going back to accident investigation? + +Mr. WALKER. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with +the assassination after November 22? + +Mr. WALKER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can +think of at this time, Officer Walker? + +Mr. WALKER. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just +don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I +can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high +points of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence? + +Mr. WALKER. I don't recall. I think he said--I know he was repeating, +"I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he got the gun? + +Mr. WALKER. No, he didn't say where he got the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that it was his gun? + +Mr. WALKER. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said +he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed +it was his gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come +down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for +your cooperation. + +Mr. WALKER. Okay. I know you've got a problem here. + +Mr. BELIN. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the +deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to +either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing +of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to +us in Washington? + +Mr. WALKER. I will go ahead and sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the +Dallas Police Department, I assume. + +Mr. WALKER. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now? + +Mr. BELIN. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to +read it or have her send it to us directly? + +Mr. WALKER. Do I have to come, down here to read it here? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, you have to come down and read it here. + +Mr. WALKER. I will come down and read it and sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, fine. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL + +The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HILL. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name. + +Mr. HILL. Gerald Lynn Hill. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HILL. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. HILL. Since March 7, 1955. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Sergeant Hill? + +Mr. HILL. Thirty-four. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mr. HILL. Ferris, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. HILL. Went through high school. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of high school? + +Mr. HILL. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from +January of 1948 until April of 1954. + +At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the +paper. + +Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and +worked for them until March the 21st, 1958. + +The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police +academy for the police department. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the police department? + +Mr. HILL. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my +notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the +police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the +police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms +with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they +worked out an agreement with me. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you on duty? + +Mr. HILL. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol +division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating +applicants for the police department. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was this? + +Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the +personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining +to the President's trip or any other function other than the +investigation of police applicants. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall? + +Mr. HILL. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or--excuse +me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west +on Main. + +I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the +third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R. +Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets +watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some +facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had +seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we +were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe +is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been +shot at Main and Lamar. + +Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later--she just +made the statement and walked out--and a minute later Captain Westbrook +said, "She wasn't kidding." + +And I said, "When she you mean?" + +And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face." + +And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to +the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third +floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the +dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the +intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down +in the press room. + +I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure +was Inspector Sawyer--but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't +say for sure--saying we think we have located the building where the +shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help. + +At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain +that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. +The captain said, "Go ahead and go." + +And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told +him to get on down there. + +I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and +saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he +was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular." + +And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street." + +"The President has been shot." + +We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named +Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the +basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told +him the President was shot. + +And he said, "Where are you going?" + +And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came +from." + +And he said, "Could I go with you?" + +So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what +the number was. + +We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, +went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as +Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson +Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the +right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, +jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there. + +I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building +properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so." + +And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?" + +And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out." + +About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from +homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service +bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy +sheriffs came up. + +Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on +the sixth floor from the sheriff's office. + +Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I +said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar? + +Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us +as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them. + +So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they +would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of +us to go to the top floor and work down. + +We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the +elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to +seven and shook it down. + +At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed +officer up there. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to the top floor of the building? + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, +or did you climb? + +Mr. HILL. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost +sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the +elevator went no further? + +Mr. HILL. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost +positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't +particularly take notice. + +But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of +flights because the elevator didn't go all the way. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you take this elevator? + +Mr. HILL. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned +to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight +elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. You took a passenger elevator? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do? + +Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and +if this was on the fifth, we walked through--there is a little office +section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large +room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway +would take us, which would have been on seven. + +In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder +leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used +mainly for storage. + +Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up +it. + +The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books. + +So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, +and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and +I went down to sixth. + +I started to the right side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean---- + +Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side? + +Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here +it is," or words to that effect. + +I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been +stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the +window. + +Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were +stacked near the east side of the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what +side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west? + +Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It +would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building +facing south. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or +the second window, or what, if you remember? + +Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to +the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short +time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, +because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there? + +Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a +three-sided shield. + +That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody +specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a +sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of +this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were +two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them. + +On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for +concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which +appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I +wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, +it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches +thick. + +Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the +south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of +the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, +were three spent shells. + +This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At +this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let +anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another +window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled +down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or +not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, I asked +the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure +that the crime lab was en route. + +When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator +moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch +the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were +coming up on the elevator. + +I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out +the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure +the crime lab was en route. + +About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab +was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the +area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth +floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene +so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All +right." + +And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector +Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building +across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and +Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay +any attention. + +I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. +C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that +day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what we +wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene? + +Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could +have been 19. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill. + +Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant +District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been +standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the +police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember +right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the +400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the +voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead. + +At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this +would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location +from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible +suspect in the assassination. + +With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160 +pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of +bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we +have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that +detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go +with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer +had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also. + +In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at +this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding +with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had +actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there. + +We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to +go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we +passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a +police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital. + +We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car +parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool +of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. + +Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he +said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 +to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown +bushy hair." + +At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad +105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe, +and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez. + +I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many +witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to +start checking the area. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember +the name of the person that gave you the description? + +Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name. + +Mr. BELIN. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any +kind? + +Mr. HILL. No; they had not. This came much later. + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead if you would, please. + +Mr. HILL. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came +up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over +into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking +lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--and taken off his jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. You turned this man over to Poe, too? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 +p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I +believe? Your radio home station? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that +saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, +behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." +"Several squads check out." Was that you? + +Mr. HILL. That was Owens. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all? + +Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens. + +Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time? + +Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. HILL. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went +around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the +first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, +and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on +Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the +north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand +furniture. + +By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man +running towards these houses. + +At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was +there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident +investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple +more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front +door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest +to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody +was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or +outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked. + +Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been +the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, +both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on +this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and +I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit. + +And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got +back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his +car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to +me with a Winston cigarette package. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was this? + +Mr. HILL. This was Poe. + +Mr. BELIN. You went back to the Tippit scene? + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street? + +Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that +contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had +pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped +these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put +them in the Winston package. + +I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for +him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for +evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, +or to homicide. + +The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to +a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street +in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go +in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees +inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen +anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible +places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, +nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the +doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to. + +An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that +time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call +came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. HILL. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a +right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as +close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two +or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the +back. + +They said, "We got the building completely covered off." + +I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the +theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard +the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over +the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony. + +We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been +also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling +to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe +just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the +balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and +here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man. + +There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and +none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of +the man that shot Tippit. + +I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and +stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the +ground. He said, "Did you find anything?" + +And I said, "Not up here." + +He said, "Have you checked the roof?" + +There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the +top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for +you." And he started up it. + +The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't +overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him +in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the +west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to +the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which +came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the +lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west +door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is +that correct? + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed +north, and then you had to turn to the right? + +Mr. HILL. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come +down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down +the north stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you +go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are +facing the screen, you are facing roughly east? + +Mr. HILL. Right side of the theatre would have been south. + +Mr. BELIN. South as you face the screen. All right, now. + +Mr. HILL. So I went through the north lower door. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HILL. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have +been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the +back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling +with a white male. + +I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before +I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun." + +I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately +behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side +of the suspect from me in the same aisle. + +Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front +of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and +down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't +recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then +Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both +in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various +intervals while all this was going on. + +We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him +and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him." +And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, +didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he +said, "Yes." + +And I said, "Let's get them." + +And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you were working in plainclothes? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any hat on? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; I did have a hat. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition +Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when +we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. +That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or +right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize any people in there? + +Mr. HILL. This would have been the suspect [pointing]. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the +profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or +lower than the others? + +Mr. HILL. Lower than the other people in the picture. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right. + +Mr. HILL. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the +suspect? + +Mr. HILL. That is Detective Paul Bentley. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears +to have his hands---- + +Mr. HILL. That would be C. T. Walker. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is another person that is in the extreme +left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is? + +Mr. HILL. Capt. W. R. Westbrook. + +Mr. BELIN. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is? + +Mr. HILL. I have no idea. + +Mr. BELIN. That is to the left? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is +that anything you can recognize? + +Mr. HILL. Not from that; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, sir. + +You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect? + +Mr. HILL. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later +in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI +agent---- + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be Barrett? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his first name? + +Mr. HILL. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain +Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire +exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came +over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of +there as soon as possible. + +And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to +stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the +actual scene where the arrest was made. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent +happened to be there at the time? + +Mr. HILL. I heard later, and--but not actually to my own knowledge, +that he was riding with Captain Westbrook. + +To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out +from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the +incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly +before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HILL. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would +have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to +the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the +north section of the theatre. + +And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in +front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons +was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear. + +I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side. + +Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side. + +At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any +newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a +man shooting movies. + +Mr. BELIN. Movies? + +Mr. HILL. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a +short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about +him. + +We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a +minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west +door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the +officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where +nobody got to us or to the suspect. + +But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We +ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other calls from the crowd? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion, +but we kept moving. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you +were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process +of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell +something along the effect, "I've got him." + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements? + +First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement +of any kind? + +Mr. HILL. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically +recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for +a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put +it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no. + +As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if +we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in +the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald +or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will +keep on calling him the suspect, started making statements about "I +want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you +doing this to me." + +As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing +the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling +words similar to, "Typical police brutality." + +And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there +to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and +commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until +we got in the car. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, let me stop there before you testify about +getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement +prior to getting into the car? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying +to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?" + +Mr. HILL. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect? + +Mr. HILL. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that +Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click. + +Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, +off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the +position, was probably the second officer to him. + +In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and +then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that +order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him +from using the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you reply to this question? + +Mr. HILL. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the +interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the +scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that +you would hear it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hit the suspect at all? + +Mr. HILL. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else hit the suspect? + +Mr. HILL. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a +small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise +on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, +to see this done, I did not see. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as +"Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a--you want---- + +Mr. BELIN. Let's stop there before we get in the car. + +Mr. HILL. There were some statements made in the car similar to this, +in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time +in the theatre or from the theatre to the car. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you +hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle? + +Mr. HILL. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or +"Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him." + +But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called +anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a +police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did +not hear any. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer? + +Mr. HILL. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly +about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I +didn't actually identify any direct blows. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left +arm flailing? + +Mr. HILL. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free +himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually +hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his +hand, I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition +Exhibit B." State if you know what this is. + +Mr. HILL. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the +theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the +aisle that divided the two sections. + +Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I +don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize anything? + +Mr. HILL. There are three people in this picture that I recognize. +The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground +looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker. +The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a +T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face +practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to +us as Lee Harvey Oswald. + +And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth +is Detective Paul Bentley. + +There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is +apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and +his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to +admit I think it is me. + +And there is a faint image there, if you get the light--that is what I +am trying to see--very faintly--if we had a--yes, that is going to be +me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle. + +Mr. BELIN. If you hold it a little bit to your right? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; that is going to be me. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the +extreme left of the person with the helmet? + +Mr. HILL. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to +identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L. +E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay, sergeant. + +By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the +picture. + +Do you remember what else he had on? + +Mr. HILL. He had on a dark--I don't recall it being a solid +brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark +trousers. This I specifically remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Any jacket? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. HILL. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking +lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't +recall actually seeing this jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the +time you got to the car? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as +we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out +things. + +If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him. + +And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I +will ask you to state if you know what this is? + +Mr. HILL. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and +it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with +the suspect. + +Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that? + +Mr. HILL. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked +right here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police +Car No. 151, which appears in the picture? + +Mr. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as +you remember it? + +Mr. HILL. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each +side of the theatre entrance. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to +the car was open at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Who opened it? + +Mr. HILL. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been +left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us +entered. + +Mr. BELIN. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led +the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people +there? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to +contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we +came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved +between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was +probably about 200. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car +that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember +now? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time +you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the +suspect in the car. + +Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door +of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. +Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right +rear. + +Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat +on that side. + +Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, +Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker? + +Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from +the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat. + +Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove +the vehicle. + +Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which +he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the +theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you? + +Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's" + +Mr. BELIN. When did he do that? + +Mr. HILL. As soon as he handed it to me. + +Mr. BELIN. When was that? + +Mr. HILL. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his +belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already +in the car and seated. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission +Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is? + +Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" +barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been +blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before? + +Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't +recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is +the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. + +Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will +identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you +describe it any more fully? + +Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun +in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last +name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal. + +Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there? + +Mr. HILL. I did. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you do that? + +Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of +Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police +department. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched +your name on it? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you? + +Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon. + +Mr. BELIN. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, +is that correct? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is what it says. + +Mr. BELIN. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or +something "C15" on it, too, is that right? + +Mr. HILL. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that +is. + +Mr. BELIN. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143? + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in +the car, he handed this gun to you? + +Mr. HILL. Right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was +said and what was done? + +Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained +and how many live rounds it had in it. + +Mr. BELIN. How many did you find? + +Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an +indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There +were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions. + +All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape +on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half +inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue +on the jacket of the shell. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those? + +Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them. + +Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on +the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the +initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a +dash behind it. + +Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is +the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the +H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my +presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third +floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What is that? + +Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that +was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was +taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest. + +Mr. BELIN. When was it removed? + +Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until +we arrived at the station. + +Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun? + +Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your +initials? + +Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed +them. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this an empty shell or live bullet? + +Mr. HILL. That is a live round. + +Mr. BELIN. For what caliber? + +Mr. HILL. A .38 caliber. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked +Q-177. + +Mr. HILL. That appears to be Q-177. + +It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH +running together, the initials CK on it also. + +It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is +a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name +H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit +145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I +identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself. + +Was this also something that you took out? + +Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I +believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that +identification. + +I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers. + +I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant? + +Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to +be Q-79. + +It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's +near the identification number that are legible. + +And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is +apparently on some of the others. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that? + +Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the +shell. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that? + +Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored +coating on the lead inside the bullet. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78. + +Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification +mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the +shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with +which I marked it. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80. + +Mr. HILL. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification +number Q-80. + +The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. +Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on +it. And this one also is a plain lead shell. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there? + +Mr. HILL. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, +with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number. + +On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on +this shell by me. + +This is a .38 lead slug. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs +were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143? + +What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed? + +Mr. HILL. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately +previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as +Commission Exhibit 143, by me. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun +was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this +gun was in your possession? + +Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time +it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were +marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were +marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the +homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that +they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at +this point. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill. + +You stated that this gun was handed to you by---- + +Mr. HILL. Detective Bob Carroll. + +Mr. BELIN. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +After he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what +happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you +can, what happened in the car? + +Mr. HILL. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner +where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one +block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this +point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, +and turned left onto Zangs. + +Within, I would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the +car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which +No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I +knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he +got on the radio. + +I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and +weapon and are en route to the station." + +Mr. BELIN. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and +I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, +"Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the +station." Was that---- + +Mr. HILL. Well, that would have generally been--that would have been---- + +Mr. BELIN. Would have been you? + +Mr. HILL. That would have been me. + +Mr. BELIN. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the +No. 2 on it? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently +they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this +point---- + +Mr. BELIN. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, +"Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on +the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying +that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have +been possibly right. + +Mr. BELIN. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre." + +And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." + +Did you say that? + +Mr. HILL. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question +did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him? + +Mr. BELIN. That is 531-550-2? + +Mr. HILL. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HILL. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the +theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it goes to 550. + +Mr. HILL. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher. + +Mr. BELIN. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre +after a fight." And then 531-2-3. + +Mr. HILL. That would have been the dispatcher talking to---- + +Mr. BELIN. Someone? + +Mr. HILL. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson. + +Mr. BELIN. Two and three? + +Mr. HILL. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, +which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made. + +And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we +had 223, who was Walker--that is Walker's call number, and 492, which +was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me. + +And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick +up 223 car and take it back. + +Mr. BELIN. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you +advised who was in the car? + +Mr. HILL. With us en route to the station. + +Mr. BELIN. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was +at 1:52 p.m.? + +Mr HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice +that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, +or not, at 1:40 p.m.? + +Would that have been someone else? + +Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer. + +Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using +the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, +but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I +didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of +the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here. + +Mr. BELIN. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the +time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in +the car? + +Mr. HILL. The suspect was asked what his name was. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say? + +Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived? + +Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and +he didn't answer it, either. + +About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul +Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification." + +Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand +he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, +"Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. + +I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee +Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this +identification, I believe, was on the library card. + +And he also made the statement that there was some more identification +in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name +that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. + +Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell? + +Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is +what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it +written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address? + +Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification. + +One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near +as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly +conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an +address on Beckley, that I recall hearing. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to +the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the +second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer? + +Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you +got to the station? + +Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the +identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two +different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to +have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually +is." + +After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his +billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are +treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in +a movie." + +Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you +have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman." + +And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," +or something to that effect. + +Mr. BELIN. Something to what effect? + +Mr. HILL. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for +that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact +words of it, I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; then what was said? + +Mr. HILL. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior +to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions +were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did +he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the +handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again +he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was +carrying a pistol in a movie." + +We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without +using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot +we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--I did, +before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some +reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when +we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in +a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he +did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to. + +He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the +basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get +organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the +station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have +been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed +a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the +suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to. + +And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be +ashamed of." + +And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and +walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, +put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back +behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him. + +Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us. + +Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and +robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the +homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him. + +At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he +was in. + +Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never +relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was +Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold +on to it until later." + +I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want +us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up. + +We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the +offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way +when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, +came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in. + +He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go +get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and +I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man +named Lee Oswald." + +And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was +employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a +roll call of the employees." + +And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that +effect, "Because there he sits." + +And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery +bureau, to Captain Fritz. + +Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had +received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that +an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that +Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while +effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel +basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was +further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try +to organize the first report on the arrest. + +I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect +while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer +J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the +office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This +is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself. + +He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the +Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and +had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out +pro-Castro literature. + +This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand +myself. And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I +change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in +the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. +Tippit, which I did. + +I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my +signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over +in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and +recap the events. + +By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he +could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the +suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him. + +The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original +arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to +finish the report. + +When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, +and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a +paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that +it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report. + +Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections. + +And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a +paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also +that the FBI agent was there. + +Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they there at the time? + +Mr. HILL. They were there. They got there inside where we were about +the time he was being handcuffed. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, let me go back a minute now. + +You left the suspect in the custody of homicide? + +Mr. HILL. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. In what office was he left? + +Mr. HILL. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the +homicide and robbery bureau office. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was in there with him when you left? + +Mr. HILL. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander +of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the +officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau +and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner. + +However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the +interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office? + +Mr. HILL. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small +hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to +pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain +Fritz immediately in front of him. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left? + +Mr. HILL. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, +Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner. + +Mr. BELIN. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was +Fritz'? + +Mr. HILL. As far as I know; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any +address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement +of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in +Irving? + +Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, +in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from +information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these +addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley. + +As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the +identification. + +Mr. BELIN. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street? + +Mr. HILL. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was. + +Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in +which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any +Beckley Street address for the suspect? + +Mr. HILL. No. + +Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought +into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz +there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address? + +Mr. HILL. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did the suspect say, if anything? + +Mr. HILL. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the +theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why +are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a +gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is +carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing +an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry +for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion. + +He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make +boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in +the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and +the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He +was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he +made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he +didn't have anything to be ashamed of. + +Mr. BELIN. When the comment was made about frying, did any police +officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or +something like that? + +Do you remember anything like that being said? + +Mr. HILL. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to +the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance +to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I +don't recall who said it. + +But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, +I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that? + +Did you hear him say anything like that? + +Mr. HILL. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, +because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on +in the car. + +At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, +and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an +indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we +made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was +in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the +gun click. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that happened in the car? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall of specific detail. + +There was quite a bit of excitement. + +Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, +and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't +recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the +car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't +have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all? + +Mr. HILL. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, +but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. +This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, +was how quiet he did keep. + +His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had +committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer +questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not +unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he +is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can +do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said +he wanted his attorney. + +Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his +rights. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to +the police station? + +Mr. HILL. I do not recall. + +I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is +possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was +keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't +prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the +police station. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley? + +Mr. HILL. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and +once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him +walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the +day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the +time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that +he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were +you with the suspect at all times? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the +doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never +closed. + +Mr. BELIN. The door was never closed? + +Mr. HILL. No. + +Mr. BELIN. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the +man, suspect, say anything at all, or not? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the +doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and +what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if +he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, +or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. +We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight. + +Mr. BELIN. How far was the suspect from you at this time? + +Mr. HILL. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 +more feet to the door. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far would that be? + +Mr. HILL. About 6 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. How close was the other officer to you? + +Mr. HILL. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was +probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all? + +Mr. HILL. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the +statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word. + +Mr. BELIN. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he +was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, +would you have been in a position to hear that statement made? + +Mr. HILL. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible +that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, +but I can't say for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was +anything else that he could have said except for during that period, +would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North +Beckley? + +Mr. HILL. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over +to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker +and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I +am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North +Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly +hearsay, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned? + +Mr. HILL. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 +or 8 o'clock that night. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room? + +Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He +came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure +that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the +details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in +into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, +how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and +decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and +round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it +was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, +and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, +and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after +McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to +the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest +of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of +coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with +Oswald in the interrogation room? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had +with the prisoner? + +Mr. HILL. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald +as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in +the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that +I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality +and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the +basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted +to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, +so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have +taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room. + +Mr. BELIN. Over what period of time span would that have been that he +was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway +there? + +Mr. HILL. Probably 3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I +believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his +address and he refused, is that correct? + +Mr. HILL. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not +going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all. + +Mr. BELIN. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally +answered that question, did he? + +Mr. HILL. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of +Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have +any other report that you made at all, or not? + +Mr. HILL. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made +from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday +morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from that, anything? + +Mr. HILL. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact +that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another +report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of +the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one +report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the +only one I wrote on the actual arrest. + +Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you. + +Mr. HILL. Can I look at it? + +Mr. BELIN. You bet you can. + +[Handing to witness.] + +Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual +officer. Yes, sir; I did write this. + +Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what? + +Mr. HILL. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed +by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with +me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all +three signatures on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination +investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I was off that day. + +And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning +on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and +captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board +meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the +International Building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around +11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time. + +Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the +shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. HILL. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I +was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get +his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not? + +Mr. HILL. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a +while. In the interim, I had been on--normally when I was on a rotating +schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was +located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in +there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about +2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't +been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each +other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was +working in personnel. + +And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am +staying home." + +Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting? + +Mr. HILL. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 +or 4 weeks before this. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police +department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you +during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the +rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November +22? + +What did you find when you got there? + +Mr. HILL. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the +basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the +doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office. + +If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building. + +Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the +elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and +took pictures of us going to homicide. + +We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into +the homicide office. + +At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood +from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by +name. + +But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in +until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of +the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and +floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on +tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything +else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open +as much as possible. + +And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward +homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your +way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to +get through there. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition +that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, +and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member +of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the +police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other +types of news also. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear +the hall or clear the floor at all? + +Mr. HILL. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been +made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got +there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I +don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among +the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might +embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there? + +Mr. HILL. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing +that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press +releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities. + +I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do +what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when +they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a +formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions +they did, and if they didn't they would walk out. + +There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work +in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, +it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all. + +But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the +press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask +somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or +not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing +at that time what they were asked to do. + +What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather +crowded, I will make that statement. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you +previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you +to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you +talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one. + +What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or +was one that you found difficult to see? + +Mr. HILL. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time. + +However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and +they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a +dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that +had been handled a few times. + +Mr. BELIN. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" +and the other one is "Q-177," is that it? + +Mr. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw---- + +Mr. HILL. Q-80 would be the one. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a +couple of days ago, is that correct? + +Mr. HILL. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Friday afternoon? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, +is that correct? + +Mr. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, +that was canceled? + +Mr. HILL. That left. + +Mr. BELIN. I left at 5:30--and now it is past 7 o'clock--and I told you +I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition. + +At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas +of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we +had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you +described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general +terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we +go into any details at that time? + +Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this. + +You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, +supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could +have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that +time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, +and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book +Depository prior to the finding of the gun. + +Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was +there, I didn't see it. + +Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I +don't recall what statement it was. + +But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall +hearing that. I don't remember what it was. + +Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at +that time? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to +the stress of time. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in +from the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. HILL. As to any other possible weapon? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes; or ammunition? + +Mr. HILL. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and +being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone +else searching him after he was placed under arrest. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I +have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of +inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the +investigation of the Tippit murder? + +Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at +this time? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your +splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police +department here, and you particularly. + +You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of +mine was canceled. + +Mr. HILL. They were both on duty, so I don't mind. + +Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the +typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can +waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your +reading. + +Do you have any preference? + +Mr. HILL. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and +sign it? + +If you will just let me know when, I will be here. + +Mr. BELIN. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very +much. + +Mr. HILL. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE + +The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you stand and be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this +Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. POE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. State your name. + +Mr. POE. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e. + +Mr. BALL. And your address? + +Mr. POE. 1716 Cascade Street. + +Mr. BALL. And your occupation? + +Mr. POE. Police officer, city of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. All right, what is your rank in the department? + +Mr. POE. Patrolman. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the department? + +Mr. POE. Nine years and one month. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you born? + +Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mr. POE. Graduated from high school. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. POE. Then went into the Navy. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. POE. Three years. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. POE. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you do that work? + +Mr. POE. About 2 years. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. POE. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out +of the Service. + +Mr. BALL. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction +worker? + +Mr. POE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? + +Mr. POE. I joined the police force. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police force? + +Mr. POE. Patrol work. + +Mr. BALL. Patrolman? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In a car? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In a radio car? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day? + +Mr. POE. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone? + +Mr. POE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. POE. L. E. Jez. + +Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s. + +Mr. POE. No; it is J-e-z. + +Mr. BALL. What district do you patrol? + +Mr. POE. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106. + +Mr. BALL. Where are they located? + +Mr. POE. In the western end of the downtown section. + +Mr. BALL. You were a downtown patrolman? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the +radio? The fact that the President had been shot? + +Mr. POE. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal +19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston +Streets. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Were you told to go some place? + +Mr. POE. We reported the scene; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. To where? + +Mr. POE. To Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. When--what did you do there? + +Mr. POE. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went where? + +Mr. POE. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go out there? + +Mr. POE. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as +part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and +heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and--because he didn't +know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out +there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it +to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East +Ninth, the last time, and we went out there. + +Mr. BALL. You went there? + +Mr. POE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you find when you got there? + +Mr. POE. We found---- + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Mr. POE. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of +blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already +picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We +had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 +people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got +a description of the man that shot Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? + +Mr. POE. Sir? + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? + +Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and +I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the +scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much +traffic on the radio, and the last--the direction he was seen leaving, +and then I talked to several more witnesses around there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio? + +Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it. + +Mr. BALL. And what happened after that? + +Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. +Dominique, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides? + +Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? + +Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the +man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading +his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up. + +Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn? + +Mr. POE. A man, white man. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing? + +Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run. + +Mr. BALL. And what did he say? + +Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up. + +Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls? + +Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls? + +Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from +the crime lab? + +Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't +swear to it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any people there? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. POE. Talked to Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the two Davis girls? + +Mr. POE. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two +Davis girls. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene +did? + +Mr. POE. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene. + +Mr. BALL. Leavelle? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the +Davis girls hand you anything? + +Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as +Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BALL. What was that? + +Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about +145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket. + +Mr. BALL. There is a--off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was Walker there at the scene? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there. + +Mr. BALL. What is his full name? + +Mr. POE. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on +that. + +Mr. BALL. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it +says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about +the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, +slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks." + +Do you know whether you gave Walker that description? + +Mr. POE. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the +car with Walker. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give Walker a description similar to that? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, the only difference I see between the description you +said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in +his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same. + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who told you he had on a white jacket? + +Mr. POE. Mrs. Markham told me first. + +Mr. BALL. She did? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she +was--looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much +as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her. + +Mr. BALL. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given +to you? + +Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package. + +Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package? + +Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges. + +Mr. BALL. To the crime lab? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI +lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any +identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls +given to you by Benavides? + +Mr. POE. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark? + +Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? + +Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear +to it, I couldn't make them out any more. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it +is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. + +Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western +Special. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. POE. At the scene? + +Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. + +Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime +lab got there. + +Mr. BALL. Then you left? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect. + +Mr. BALL. Were you at the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him apprehended? + +Mr. POE. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You were out? + +Mr. POE. At the back. + +Mr. BALL. At the back? + +Mr. POE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Poe. + +This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and +you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature. + +Which do you prefer? + +Mr. POE. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the +truth. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to give your signature? + +Mr. POE. I will sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up +here and sign it. + +Mr. POE. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON + +The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of +the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GIBSON. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. GIBSON. John Gibson. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. GIBSON. I am manager of a retail store. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of retail store is that? + +Mr. GIBSON. It's Elko Camera store. + +Mr. BALL. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store? + +Mr. GIBSON. 239 West Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Near the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson? + +Mr. GIBSON. I was born in Brashear, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. GIBSON. Woodrow Wilson High School. + +Mr. BALL. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. GIBSON. In Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Well, what have you done since you got out of school? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the +Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for +Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, +and then went to work for Elko. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day? + +Mr. GIBSON. It was at 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Do you go to the picture show very often--that particular +theatre--the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. Like I said--that's on Friday and that is depending on +business. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday? + +Mr. GIBSON. About 1 o'clock--the same time I always go to lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963? + +Mr. GIBSON. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far +right-hand side. + +Mr. BALL. Is that where you always sit? + +Mr. GIBSON. That's where I always sit--that's my chair. + +Mr. BALL. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have +marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look +like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of +the time--that looks like it. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture? + +Mr. GIBSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that seat with reference to the picture? + +Mr. GIBSON. Further to the left--from the main seating in the very +back--it would be just past him. + +Mr. BALL. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the +center aisle? + +Mr. GIBSON. Right, and I would be--to his right. + +Mr. BALL. In the same row? + +Mr. GIBSON. In the same row. + +Mr. BALL. To his right facing the screen? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And on the other aisle, is that correct? + +Mr. GIBSON. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in +the theatre before the lights came on? + +Mr. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, +I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and +started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that +works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a +fire. + +Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into +the lobby? + +Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door +there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me +was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody +in the balcony?" + +I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood +around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I +guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre +just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say +there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest +of them were going upstairs. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see happen? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on +and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was +another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles. + +Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles? + +Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all +of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman +standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the +far aisle--just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down +the far aisle next to the wall on my side. + +Mr. BALL. What aisles did you see policemen going down? + +Mr. GIBSON. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center +aisles, and then the next thing was--Oswald was standing in the aisle +with a gun in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. That's the next thing you saw? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anybody with him--near him? + +Mr. GIBSON. I couldn't swear to that--I don't know--you mean other +policemen? + +Mr. BALL. That's what I mean--was he in the aisles? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, he had this pistol in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. Was anybody near him? + +Mr. GIBSON. Just the officers. + +Mr. BALL. What was the officer doing--did you say officers or police +officer? + +Mr. GIBSON. Officers. + +Mr. BALL. Plural, officers? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes; there were more than one. + +Mr. BALL. What were they doing? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, they were going toward him. + +Mr. BALL. Did they have ahold of him at the time? + +Mr. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time? + +Mr. GIBSON. I don't think so. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which one--can you describe where he was and what he +did--just tell us in your own words what you saw him do? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, just like--I guess you have heard this a lot of +times--the gun misfired--it clicked and about the same time there was +one police officer that positively had him. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean--"had him"? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him. + +Mr. BALL. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or +afterwards? + +Mr. GIBSON. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer +because I would say possibly seconds before or a second--maybe at the +precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I +just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of +this. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer strike Oswald? + +Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer? + +Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.] + +Mr. BALL. You did not? + +Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they +said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you +mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they +took him to the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell? + +Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but +I was looking at an angle. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor? + +Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you see happen? + +Mr. GIBSON. I didn't see anything happen--I walked back to the front. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out. + +Mr. BALL. Describe what you saw at that time--I want to know how they +had ahold of him? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, +he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the +lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out +into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so +I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, +came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other +end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up +and then they brought Oswald through the door--there was two police +officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind +him--like so [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. And did the officer have his arm around his neck? + +Mr. GIBSON. I don't know--I don't think so--he did have a black eye and +his shirt was about halfway torn off of him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. GIBSON. He said, "I protest police brutality." + +Mr. BALL. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were +struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the +butt of a shotgun? + +Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who +were struggling with Oswald? + +Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the +theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. Oh--yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was +struggling with these other officers? + +Mr. GIBSON. Gee, I don't know--that, I couldn't say--because like I +say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could--or I should say +down--I turned around and went back to the front. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the +theatre? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me--the +first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights +came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't +definitely say I saw them talking to anybody. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your +name and address? + +Mr. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else? + +Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car +and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store. + +Mr. BALL. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him--I believe +they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told +me--Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went +upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I +don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, +as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small +majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there. + +Mr. BALL. Did they pass you on their way? + +Mr. GIBSON. You mean up the stairs? + +Mr. BALL. No; the smaller party that was downstairs. + +Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall. + +Mr. BALL. And they were in an aisle over there? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over--there's +two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs +down the wall. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that +they went? + +Mr. GIBSON. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact--this is what a +lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the +stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, +because as I said, when they took him to the floor, then I turned +around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock +the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons +of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald? + +Mr. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. BALL. As they went along--they finally walked up and outside? + +Mr. GIBSON. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald +was? + +Mr. GIBSON. Gosh--I don't know--it's hard to remember, when you try. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said--I don't think they went up to him. As I +said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he +was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me +that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but +this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay. + +Mr. BALL. But would you think he stood up first before any police +officer got to him? Or that near him? + +Mr. GIBSON. He had to, because they took him from a standing position +to the floor and he was standing up. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them before they came up to him? + +Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the +corner--as I said, just looking around the corner--there is a chance +you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, +I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but +when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. The first you saw him he was standing? + +Mr. GIBSON. He was standing. + +Mr. BALL. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out? + +Mr. GIBSON. Except on his way out--is the only thing I heard him say. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if +you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do? + +Mr. GIBSON. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it. + +Mr. GIBSON. Thanks very much. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM + +The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ELY. Would you stand up and be sworn, please? + +Mr. PUTNAM. All right. + +Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. PUTNAM. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Would you state your name, please? + +Mr. PUTNAM. James Putnam. + +Mr. ELY. And where do you live? + +Mr. PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive. + +Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Police officer--sergeant of police. + +Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Ten years and four months. + +Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of your background before you +started to work for the police department--where you went to school +and what you did before you became a policeman? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent? + +Mr. ELY. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, +I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was +in the Navy for about 7 years. + +Mr. ELY. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department? + +Mr. PUTNAM. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here +in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from +which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, +I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for +employment with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. ELY. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on +duty with the police department? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ELY. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the +investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your involvement with that +investigation? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building +and aiding in searching the building. + +Mr. ELY. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of +the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. PUTNAM. No. + +Mr. ELY. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police +department? What sort of work do you specialize in? + +Mr. PUTNAM. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, +supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for +identification.) + +Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated +Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents +designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts +of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have +no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, +assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on +the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit +1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and +Eighth Street is? + +Mr. PUTNAM. District 109. + +Mr. ELY. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to +531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th? + +Mr. PUTNAM. Yes; there is. + +Mr. ELY. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to +the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 +he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later +was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio +logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which +would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center +of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to +draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police +Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district. + +Mr. PUTNAM. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the +normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on +Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the +downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being +assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in +the Dallas Police Department--he would start in the direction of the +downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and +that vicinity. + +Mr. ELY. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route? + +Mr. PUTNAM. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this +corner--Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes +you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be +the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in +toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission +on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at +large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would +feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind +that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance +that might be related to the shooting. + +Mr. ELY. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff +area? + +Mr. PUTNAM. They are located in the Oak Cliff area. + +Mr. ELY. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE + +The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April +9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of +the staff of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ELY. Would you stand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PIERCE. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's +Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the +assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you +might have information which would help us in this inquiry. + +Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? + +Mr. PIERCE. Rio Sam Pierce. + +Mr. ELY. And where do you live? + +Mr. PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield. + +Mr. ELY. Could you tell us what your occupation is? + +Mr. PIERCE. Officer--police officer. + +Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold? + +Mr. PIERCE. Lieutenant. + +Mr. ELY. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. PIERCE. That's right. + +Mr. ELY. Could you tell us something about what you did before you +started to work for the police department? + +Mr. PIERCE. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged +in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine +Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe +it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946. + +Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you +specialize in with the police department? + +Mr. PIERCE. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of +the central station. + +Mr. ELY. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PIERCE. I was not. + +Mr. ELY. Were you in Dallas on that date? + +Mr. PIERCE. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning +and returned to Dallas about--oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m. + +Mr. ELY. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the +killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit? + +Mr. PIERCE. No, sir. + +Mr. ELY. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam +Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits +A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs +for November 22, 1963. + +If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to +patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you +explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer +Tippit would be in the district marked 109--specifically at the corner +of Lancaster and Eighth--at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have +proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and +killed? + +Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls +which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at +your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district +78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91? + +Mr. PIERCE. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have +alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, +at 12:43--I believe this occurred on channel 1--this was taken from +channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of +downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution." + +Mr. ELY. Explain what code 3 means. + +Mr. PIERCE. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have +code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In +other words, code 3 is your top--proceed with haste and caution. The +transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect +in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white +male," and gives the description here--would also be an indication to +the squads, and reading this--and I assume that this is the way it +came out--a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't +told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that +any normal police officer would assume that there had been something +pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him +working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area +to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you +stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster--it doesn't show here on +your map, but you have no viaduct--that's about the only place you can +cross that river, unless you want to wade. + +Mr. ELY. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that +viaduct would be? + +Mr. PIERCE. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown +area--it also crosses this river and comes on out--may or may not be +nearly correct--it isn't too far from wrong--I don't think so--there is +two viaducts. + +Mr. ELY. The red mark you have just drawn is what? + +Mr. PIERCE. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the +area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this--Lancaster +Street comes in something like that--it isn't marked on here. + +Mr. ELY. All right. + +Mr. PIERCE. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. +Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have +quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In +other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. +That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in +getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to +assist from the downtown area there. + +Mr. ELY. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at +12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only +to all squads in the downtown area? + +Mr. PIERCE. That's right. + +Mr. ELY. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not +located in the downtown area to react? + +Mr. PIERCE. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police +Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads +stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not +require that they stay in their district. + +Mr. ELY. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior? + +Mr. PIERCE. It looks like a normal procedure to me. + +Mr. ELY. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want +to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about +covers it? + +Mr. PIERCE. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have +to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection +with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested +in, that would not be unusual. + +Mr. ELY. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much. + +Mr. PIERCE. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS + +The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of +the staff of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. OWENS. I do. + +Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's +Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding +the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe +that you might be able to give us some information which would help us. + +Mr. OWENS. All right. + +Mr. ELY. Could you state your full name, please? + +Mr. OWENS. Calvin Bud Owens. + +Mr. ELY. And where do you live, sir? + +Mr. OWENS. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e. + +Mr. ELY. In Dallas? + +Mr. OWENS. That's right. + +Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? + +Mr. OWENS. I am a police officer. + +Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold in the police department? + +Mr. OWENS. Sergeant. + +Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the police department? + +Mr. OWENS. Twenty-three and a half years. + +Mr. ELY. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you +went with the department? + +Mr. OWENS. How far back? + +Mr. ELY. Starting with your schooling, let's say. + +Mr. OWENS. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill +[spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., +and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and +then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated +from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I +got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel +as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately +a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there +2-1/2 years, and then went to work for the public works department in +construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was +in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months +in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October +1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went +in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police +department. + +Mr. ELY. And you have been there ever since? + +Mr. OWENS. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OWENS. I was. + +Mr. ELY. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date? + +Mr. OWENS. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation. + +Mr. ELY. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff +substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your +supervision? + +Mr. OWENS. That's true. + +Mr. ELY. When and how did you first hear that there had been an +incident involving the President of the United States? + +Mr. OWENS. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the +substation--channel 1 was not working properly--some mike--or some +radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I +switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, +"It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he +had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where +they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the +dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They +were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that +there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been +shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and +proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3. + +Mr. ELY. And what does code 3 mean? + +Mr. OWENS. It means emergency with red lights and siren on. + +Mr. ELY. Thank you. + +Mr. OWENS. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of +the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was +dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored +man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, +I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and +take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I +had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they +had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman +there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. +I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a +shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall the name of this colored man? + +Mr. OWENS. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff +and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I +proceeded--I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, +an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we +started out to--I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East +Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was +corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting. + +Now, right there--here's where I'm not quite sure--I don't know whether +I was given the gun and all--but I believe I was given the gun and this +was Tippit's gun and shells. + +Mr. ELY. Do you recall who gave them to you? + +Mr. OWENS. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was. + +Mr. ELY. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody? + +Mr. OWENS. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper +envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions. + +Mr. ELY. Did you make any identifying marks on them? + +Mr. OWENS. No; they were his city issued--his own gun. + +Mr. ELY. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually? + +Mr. OWENS. No; I believe it was Barton--I'm not sure. I couldn't say +positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In +fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have +taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property +room--I don't know. + +Mr. ELY. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you +the gun, and let's go on from there. + +Mr. OWENS. Yes--we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the +suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward +Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not +sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we +blocked off that square block. + +Mr. ELY. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off? + +Mr. OWENS. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson--the 400 +or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and +Denver--I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the +buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as +businesses. + +Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you +just look through the halls? + +Mr. OWENS. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and +the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard +over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be +a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the +description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the +corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. +Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the +library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought +was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not +the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that +heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was +running over there to tell them that the President got shot. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the +library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the +library? + +Mr. OWENS. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into +the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the +shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men +yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone +left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the +crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to +the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there? + +Mr. OWENS. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] +D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the +scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been +taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just +a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his +right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. +Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and +another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which +temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether +he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a +time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was +assigned. + +Mr. ELY. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, +you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police +headquarters; is that correct? + +Mr. OWENS. What, now? + +Mr. ELY. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were +assigned to the Oak Cliff substation? + +Mr. OWENS. No; that's right. + +Mr. ELY. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition +Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is? + +Mr. OWENS. It is what we call a district map of the various districts +of the city of Dallas. + +Mr. ELY. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that +correct? + +Mr. OWENS. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for +each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, +the districts cover that. + +Mr. ELY. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that +map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OWENS. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether +we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be +assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be +78. + +Mr. ELY. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the +district? + +Mr. OWENS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. ELY. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated +"Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 +p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he +was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth? + +Mr. OWENS. That's right. + +Mr. ELY. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of +Lancaster and Eighth fall? + +Mr. OWENS. In district 109. + +Mr. ELY. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was +Officer Tippit shot? + +Mr. OWENS. In district 91. + +Mr. ELY. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer +Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district +109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your +answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which +are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your +experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure +for reacting to an emergency. + +Mr. OWENS. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit +B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and +Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was +going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all +squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be +an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet +6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought +to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at +this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the +President--that was at 12:45---- + +Mr. ELY. And signal 19 means what? + +Mr. OWENS. A shooting--anything of that magnitude in the shooting of +the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would +proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever +had done it. + +Mr. ELY. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and +Houston itself, or would he just come in closer? + +Mr. OWENS. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered +all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he +was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are +there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, +and--instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down +there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in +the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance +of apprehending him. + +Mr. ELY. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people +whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston? + +Mr. OWENS. That's what I think--not only filling in, but also looking +for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general +description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he +could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon +as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can +apprehend him. + +Mr. ELY. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in +district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head +downtown in any emergency? + +Mr. OWENS. That's true. + +Mr. ELY. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over +toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route. + +Mr. OWENS. According to this map--it doesn't show all the things on +there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you +wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, +but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot +of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and +go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him +a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him +right to Elm and Houston. + +Mr. ELY. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would +be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town? + +Mr. OWENS. Yes; I do. + +Mr. ELY. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which +you were patroling? + +Mr. OWENS. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was +acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at +the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time. + +Mr. ELY. In which numbered area is that located? + +Mr. OWENS. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I +heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then +I went. + +Mr. ELY. You headed toward the downtown area yourself? + +Mr. OWENS. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself. + +Mr. ELY. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there +either? + +Mr. OWENS. That's right--that's true. + +Mr. ELY. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told +us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which +numbered area on this map he was assigned to? + +Mr. OWENS. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96. + +Mr. ELY. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.) + +Mr. OWENS. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, +but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston. + +Mr. ELY. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he? + +Mr. OWENS. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same +sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the +same general area which covers these districts in here. + +Mr. ELY. That would be districts 82 and 85? + +Mr. OWENS. No--81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79--that's that +sergeant's district. + +Mr. ELY. All right, thank you very much, sergeant. + +Mr. OWENS. I don't know of anything else--as I say, I couldn't remember +where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my +wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked +her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she +has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling +a gun like that if it was the suspect's. + +Mr. ELY. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much. + +Mr. OWENS. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH + +The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April +2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you +solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the +Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Sit down. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith. + +Mr. BALL. And where do you live? + +Mr. SMITH. 328-1/2 East Davis. + +Mr. BALL. What is your age? + +Mr. SMITH. Twenty. + +Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with? + +Mr. SMITH. My mother. + +Mr. BALL. At this address? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and +where you went to school. + +Mr. SMITH. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason +Chapel. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mr. SMITH. Three months into the 12th grade. + +Mr. BALL. Three months into the 12th grade? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SMITH. Been working ever since, most of the time. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? Have you done? + +Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box. + +Mr. BALL. Beg your pardon? + +Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box. + +Mr. BALL. That is where you are working now? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; working at a metal shop. + +Mr. BALL. Any metal shop? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in trouble with the police? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble did you get in? + +Mr. SMITH. Auto theft. + +Mr. BALL. You're on probation now, aren't you? + +Mr. SMITH. Two years. + +Mr. BALL. Two years? Ever have any other trouble? + +Mr. SMITH. Tickets. + +Mr. BALL. Just tickets? Traffic tickets? + +Mr. SMITH. Two right now. + +Mr. BALL. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't have a job? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you spend the day that day? + +Mr. SMITH. 505 East 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Why were you there? + +Mr. SMITH. Visiting a friend. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go over there that day? + +Mr. SMITH. In the morning. In the morning. + +Mr. BALL. In the morning? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? + +Mr. SMITH. In the evening. + +Mr. BALL. So, you spent the whole day there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day +that you noticed? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you? + +Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt. + +Mr. BALL. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot? + +Mr. SMITH. One block. + +Mr. BALL. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Policeman was shot in the 400 block? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were in the 500 block? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident? + +Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots. + +Mr. BALL. And what? You looked down that way? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back? + +Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was +running. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Saw the side of his face? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And he ran in what direction? + +Mr. SMITH. West. + +Mr. BALL. Did you follow him? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street. + +Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my +probation record. + +Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with. + +Mr. BALL. What's his name? + +Mr. SMITH. James Markham. + +Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham? + +Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I +a---- + +Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you? + +Mr. SMITH. The FBI. + +Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen? + +Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on +television---- + +Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away? + +Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark. + +Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television? + +Mr. SMITH. Looked blond. + +Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. By whom? + +Mr. SMITH. FBI agent. + +Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture? + +Mr. SMITH. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the +appearance of the man in the picture? + +Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television. + +Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it +looked anything like the man you had seen running away? + +Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes. + +Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these +shots? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking? + +Mr. SMITH. No. + +Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house---- + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where you were standing? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer? + +Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants +and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat---- + +Mr. SMITH. This looks like it. + +Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. +Have you ever seen this before? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket. + +Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up +and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want +to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send +it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that? + +Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me. + +Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature? + +Mr. SMITH. Ever what that means. + +Mr. BALL. That means you don't have to sign it. + +Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; I will sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. Do you have a telephone number? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and +sign it. + +I thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR. + +The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., +on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right hand +to be sworn, please. + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. APPLIN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the +record. + +Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for +Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station. + +Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your +transportation? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I +will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your +expenses. You came in when? This morning? + +Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in +here. + +Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And---- + +Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car +stalled on me about three or four blocks over. + +Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born +and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done +since then? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived +there pretty near all my life. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high. + +Mr. BALL. And how far did you go? Finished junior high? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade. + +Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff. + +Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents. + +Mr. BALL. Your mother and father? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor. + +Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble? + +Mr. APPLIN. Burglary. + +Mr. BALL. When was that? + +Mr. APPLIN. In 1963. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do any time? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it. + +Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations. + +Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing here? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell it? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in +my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas? + +Mr. APPLIN. Working. + +Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and +painter and front-end loader. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day? + +Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, +and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days. + +Mr. BALL. For 2 days? + +Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to--I was over in Oak Cliff, around +about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I +was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car +listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened. + +Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Paid your way? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre? + +Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the +middle of the chairs. + +Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of +seats? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought +about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle. + +Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that +showing of that picture that you remember? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture. + +Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on. + +Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening? + +Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle. + +Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front? + +Mr. APPLIN. From the rear. + +Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter? + +Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it. + +Mr. BALL. From your rear? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the +wall. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you see? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter +and what about the lights. + +Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front? + +Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was +happened--happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down +and I stopped to find out. + +Mr BALL. Did you ask him? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do? + +Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back up. + +Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Towards you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the +front, asked them to stand up and---- + +Mr. BALL. Did he search them? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down. + +Mr. BALL. Did he search you? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting? + +Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down. + +Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre? + +Mr. APPLIN. From the rear. + +Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle? + +Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting +about two or three seats. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see him do? + +Mr. APPLIN. He--started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, +please?" And he stood up. + +Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard +the officer say, "Stand up"? + +Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from +the back, rear. + +Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show. + +Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition +here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows +down from me. + +Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you +yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was---- + +Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said. + +Mr. BALL. What did the officer say? + +Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please." + +Mr. BALL. What did the man say? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time. + +Mr. BALL. And what happened then? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search +him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he +did, the officer grabbed him. + +Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. With his left or right? + +Mr. APPLIN. Right fist. + +Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And +during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, +there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and +ran down there to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four +or five officers were there. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came +into view before any of the other officers got there. + +Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who +pulled a gun? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] +and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was +pointed out that way [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this +way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald +to stand up? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he stand up? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about---- + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do? + +Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him. + +Mr. BALL. What did the officer do? + +Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then. + +Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then. + +Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol? + +Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds. + +Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol? + +Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had +on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to +the gun. + +Mr. BALL. What did the officer do? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun +and the officer saying, "Here he is." + +Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns. + +Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol. + +Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came +down? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him. + +Mr. BALL. How many of them? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him? + +Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun. + +Mr. BALL. How did he do it? + +Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and +swung and hit him in the back. + +Mr. BALL. With what? + +Mr. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun. + +Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess it was. You could--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where? + +Mr. APPLIN. In the back. + +Mr. BALL. What part of the back? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, +somewheres. + +Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you +saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun? + +Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald? + +Mr. APPLIN. Uhuh? + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the +middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of +the aisle. + +Mr. BALL. With the man? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through the +doors? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers +hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind +me. + +Mr. BALL. In behind you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And went on out? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you go out and follow them out? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and +the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and +asked--there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and +said--that one boy said that he seen him, through the front--I mean out +from behind the picture where it came out--supposed to came out behind +the picture. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give them your name there? + +Mr. APPLIN. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the +time. + +Mr. BALL. Later did you go down to the police station and make a +statement? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's +name. I rode down with three officers. + +Mr. BALL. That same day, did you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't go back to the picture show? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back +out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in +time to. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't get to see the show? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't see him after that. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your +deposition, didn't I? + +Mr. APPLIN. I wasn't actually; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I mean, you and I came up---- + +Mr. APPLIN. Oh, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And we sat and talked a few minutes? + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. BALL. And you have told us everything that you told me before---- + +Mr. APPLIN. This was taken here? + +Mr. BALL. Before it was taken. + +Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read +it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to +the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady +has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it. + +Mr. BALL. You are waiving your signature then, are you? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, I will sign it if you want me to. + +Mr. BALL. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but +you may if you want to. + +Mr. APPLIN. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble +with it, will you? + +Mr. BALL. Well, no. + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, then, I will sign it for you then. + +Mr. BALL. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin. + +Mr. APPLIN. But, there is one thing puzzling me. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. APPLIN. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, +but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was +standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. +There is a gun." And he says--just sat there. He was just back like +this. Just like this. Just watching. + +Mr. BALL. Just watching the show? + +Mr. APPLIN. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting +just like this, just looking at me. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know the man? + +Mr. APPLIN. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Ever seen him since? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, +"Buddy, you'd better move," and---- + +Mr. BALL. Were you scared? + +Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen the gun I was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police officer about this man? + +Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did +tell--I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret +Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much. + +Mr. APPLIN. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS + +The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Ray Hawkins. + +Mr. BALL. And your address, where do you live now? + +Mr. HAWKINS. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident +investigator. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. HAWKINS. It will be 11 years in June. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself--where you were born and +your education and what you have done? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the +Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served +3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office +after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power & +Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have +been in the traffic division 8 years last month, which my primary duty +is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in +the radio patrol division. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day. + +Mr. BALL. And were you assigned some special duty because of the +presence of the President in the city? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is +my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer +Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving +him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation. + +Mr. BALL. Do you work in uniform? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. BALL. In the regular patrolman's uniform? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Of the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--the regular patrolman uniform. + +Mr. BALL. You drive an automobile? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes; I do. + +Mr. BALL. Is it a marked police car? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--it is the blue and white marked police car. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you around 1 o'clock? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the +time of the assassination--I was--we were on an accident in the 2500 +block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard +anything about this accident. + +Mr. BALL. You and your partner? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear the President had been killed? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of +the approximate time that you heard that report? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.--I'm not sure +what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were +on an accident at the time--I cleared from the call about the time we +heard this information. + +Mr. BALL. And you got that information over the police radio? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not. They called--I heard a citizen come +in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked +like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I +was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the +general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, +stating that we were proceeding in that direction. + +We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general +vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come +out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate +vicinity. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton? + +Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the +location. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? + +Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and +in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they +had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and +then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call +that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at +which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten +into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three +of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself. + +Mr. BALL. Hutson is also a patrolman? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the +library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had +heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the +other employees there. + +We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area +around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson. + +We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the +Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you park? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the +theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door +at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker +and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at +this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he +identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and +that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the +suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre +and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or +four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south +side. + +Mr. BALL. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen +about four rows from the rear of the theatre. + +Mr. BALL. And how many seats over from the right aisle? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I would say probably three or four--I don't remember +exactly. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were +you? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could +see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned +on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage. + +Mr. BALL. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer? + +Mr. HAWKINS. The man whom I had been talking to? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; the shoe salesman. + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did +identify himself and we did have his name. + +Mr. BALL. Were you armed? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. With what? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with it? + +Mr. HAWKINS. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer +McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two +boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was +sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would +walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to +this person who was seated back there. + +Mr. BALL. He was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he? + +Mr. HAWKINS. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the +person's right. I was about three rows from--still in the same aisle, +on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I +heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that +effect. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. +Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and +Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the +front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs +out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around +as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with +both hands behind his back. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist? + +Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist. + +Mr. BALL. Which one? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist. + +Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I +arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and +McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I +got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled +across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre. + +Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, +Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he +took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know +whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure +it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it +was in the seats someone making the noise. + +Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so--I don't think I could say for +sure. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I +said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed +Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the +gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and +Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left +hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the +scene. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some +officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had +one, but it is possible that they did have. + +Mr. BALL. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, +and you---- + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And who was the other man? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the +time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the +left hand. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald's left? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Oswald's left. + +Mr. BALL. And who was on the right? + +Mr. HAWKINS. McDonald. + +Mr. BALL. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he +was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe +he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob +Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was +Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was +all happening pretty fast. + +Mr. BALL. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald +have a shotgun? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were +standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken. + +Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling +with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and +struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything +like that? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. +I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was +standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure +that he did not have a gun. + +Mr. BALL. Hutson did not have a shotgun? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle--I +do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights +and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he +made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or +something of this nature. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except +in the grabbing and holding of him--I know you grabbed him and held +him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow. + +Mr. BALL. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however, +after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of +his face. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Not at the theatre; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the +theatre? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I was walking with the group--I was not immediately beside +Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer +Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those +three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed +him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left +and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car--I was +standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out. + +Mr. BALL. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or +yelling? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Was he? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember him saying anything except this about +that he had certain rights and the police brutality. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say +that in the theatre? + +Mr. HAWKINS. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got +outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out +front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door. + +Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought +Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside +him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm +around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you +see anything like that? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out--the best I +can remember--I was behind the group and there were at least three +officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was +behind him and walked up behind him--I don't recall anyone having him +around the neck at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the +assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; the only thing I did following this--we went to +the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the +arrest, and that was the last thing I had done. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it? + +Mr. HAWKINS. Did I see McDonald mark it? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it +or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked +it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody unload the gun? + +Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded +whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four +men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the +station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that +we arrived at the station. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the bullets? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I saw the bullets--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine them closely? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small +indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not +fire. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. + +Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you +can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer? + +Mr. HAWKINS. I would just as soon sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right, we will have you sign it. + +Mr. HAWKINS. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. + +Mr. HAWKINS. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it? + +Mr. BALL. We will give you a telephone call. + +Mr. HAWKINS. You will give me a telephone call? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HAWKINS. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY + +The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Be seated and state your name, please. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. L. D. Montgomery. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Police officer. + +Mr. BALL. You are called before the Commission to give such information +as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have +been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your +presence here? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been over here twice now already. + +Mr. BALL. You have been here before? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I gave one deposition on this. + +Mr. BALL. And that had to do with what subject? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, they covered about all of it, really. + +Mr. BALL. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas +State Book Depository? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir; some of that was in there--yes, sir. Mr. +Griffin took it. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth +floor of the Texas State Book Depository? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in +that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition. + +Mr. BALL. I had better ask you the questions now. + +How long have you been on the police force? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been on down there 9 years. + +Mr. BALL. What is your job? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective in the homicide bureau. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4. + +Mr. BALL. And to what work were you assigned? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, that particular morning at that time we was +trying to round up some hijackers. + +Mr. BALL. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get there? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I got there, I guess--it was about 12:40 or 12:45. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do when you got there? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I reported to the sixth floor there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and +I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the +building--over there from where the shooting took place. + +Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or +afterwards? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there. + +Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; it hadn't. + +Mr. BALL. The rifle was found after you got there? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of +that sixth floor? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there +was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it +looked like somebody had been eating chicken there. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes--right there on the +floor. + +Mr. BALL. On the floor? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a +box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around +right there. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if +it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there--one of +those pictures might show exactly where it was. + +Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure +if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there. + +Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there +where the shooting was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--let's see--Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker +came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper +bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was +wrapped up in. + +Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window. + +Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. +Pepper bottle? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was +sitting over there by itself. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the +hulls there were. + +Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he +said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle. + +Mr. BALL. Correct. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that +other sack I'm thinking about--the one we found on the floor there that +was used. + +Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the +Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper +bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I +shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now? + +Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember +it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around +where the hulls were found. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of---- + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box +there. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some +boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in +there. There's some boxes coming along in there. + +Mr. BALL. Coming along in there--you mean it's outside of the view of +the pictures? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here. + +Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there. + +Mr. BALL. Partially eaten? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten--on that picture +right there--I was just looking at. + +Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of +paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in. + +Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long +piece of paper? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here. + +Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the +Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now? + +Mr. BALL. The paper sack? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one? + +Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You picked it up? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute--no; I didn't pick it up. I believe +Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check +it for prints. + +Mr. BALL. Did you question any witnesses that day? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--that particular day--no, sir; I don't +believe I talked to a witness that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses at any time? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not to the assassination--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the +shooting of Tippit? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we went out and got two of them and brought them +down. + +Mr. BALL. Who were they? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see, there was a taxicab driver--Whaley--one of +them was Mr. Whaley and there was another one. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Scoggins? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. That could be his name--I just don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a report that you made of what you did? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn't take an affidavit from him--no, sir; I took +one from Mr. Whaley. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend a showup? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; I didn't attend any showups. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No. + +Mr. BALL. But you took an affidavit from Mr. Whaley? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. From Mr. Whaley--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you ever present at any time when Oswald was questioned? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be the Sunday morning of the 24th, just +prior to transferring him. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be in Captain Fritz' office in the city hall. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present, if you remember? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, there was Detective Leavelle, Detective Graves, +Detective Dhority, Captain Fritz, and Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Kelley. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what was said? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; they just asked him several questions there +as to why he shot the President and he said he didn't shoot the +President, and Captain Fritz asked Mr. Sorrels if he would like to ask +him a question and Mr. Sorrels would ask him one and then Mr. Kelley +would ask him one--they would ask him about life in Russia. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; that's about all the questions I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Then, was Oswald handcuffed at that time, during the +questioning? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. At that time, I don't believe he was--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you leave with him? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Did I leave with who--now? + +Mr. BALL. Leave Fritz' office with him. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. When we started to transfer him, of course, we all went +down on the elevator with him. + +Mr. BALL. He was handcuffed to whom? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective Leavelle. + +Mr. BALL. And were you with the group that was taking him, transporting +him? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have already testified, I guess, as to what happened +there? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be reduced to writing and it +can be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive signature, +if you wish. Which do you prefer? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. It doesn't make any difference to me. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. I can waive it and save having to come back and sign it + +Mr. BALL. That will be all right with you? + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; that's fine. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming back. + +Mr. MONTGOMERY. You bet. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARVIN JOHNSON + +The testimony of Marvin Johnson was taken at 4 p.m., on April 6, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you +solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Marvin Johnson. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Route 3, Box 279, Terrell, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Police officer. + +Mr. BELIN. For whom? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Employed by the city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Texas? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through high school? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I finished the eighth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. You finished the eighth grade? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Went to work. + +Mr. BELIN. By way of general background, what kind of work did you do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm. +And went from that to ice route. From there I went to work at North +American Aircraft, and then the Army. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you go in the Army? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Infantry. + +Mr. BELIN. When was that? + +Mr. JOHNSON. 1944. September 1944. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you were discharged in 1946? + +Mr. JOHNSON. February 1946; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Then I went back to Aircraft. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work in Aircraft? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I worked there 11 months that time, and they had a layoff. +I got laid off, and I went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for +about 6 months. Well, one summer. Then that is when I went to Terrell +and went in the dairy business for myself. + +Mr. BELIN. You went what? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for +myself. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. JOHNSON. Then I had that 5 years, and then came here. + +Mr. BELIN. So you have been with the Dallas Police Department since +what year? + +Mr. JOHNSON. 1953. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Forty-three. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your position with the Dallas Police Department in +November of 1963? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you still assigned to that bureau today? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. As a detective? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the Presidential motorcade? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. At approximately what time did you find out about the +shooting of the President, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Must have been about 12:40, I guess. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you found out about it? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Returned to the office. + +Mr. BELIN. Returned to your office? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the +office at the time? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We had just made an arrest prior to checking out +on a hijacking. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a chance to eat that day or not? I mean lunch. + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; didn't eat lunch. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you got back to the office. Then what did you do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I was instructed by Lieutenant Wells to go to the Texas +Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. To go to the Texas Book Depository? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time did you get there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Around 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. To the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor? + +Mr. JOHNSON. When we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the +building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and +we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes. + +And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor. + +So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz +for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on +up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned +L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting +occurred. + +Mr. BELIN. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this +was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an +area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which +the shooting occurred? + +Mr. JOHNSON. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us +to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us +that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because +that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to +Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a +particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I had heard somebody already say. I had already +seen them. + +Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the No. 3, is that how many there were? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this +was? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a +window. + +Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east, +south, or west? + +Mr. JOHNSON. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of +the building, and the window is the farthest east. + +Mr. BELIN. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south +side of the building, is that correct? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see +them? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they actually found it? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a +possibility--I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up +there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. To remain there and protect the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS +Deposition Exhibit G"--the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker--I would ask +you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be +in the same position as they were when you saw them there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a +box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were +mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being +that far out. + +Mr. BELIN. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the +hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to +the bricks? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Next to the wall; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you +first saw them? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be +as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It +was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could +have been wrong. + +Mr. BELIN. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is +that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, +was closer to the wall? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I thought they were all three closer to the wall. + +Mr. BELIN. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did +you do? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my +partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that +corner. + +Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the +window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of +fried chicken, and a pop bottle. + +And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the +crime lab to finish their work. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything +else other than the sack and the pop bottle? + +Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken. + +Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that +window, or was it by another set of windows? + +Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, +seven pairs of windows? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the +center? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of +windows to my--I am pretty sure it was. + +Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting +from the east wall? + +Mr. JOHNSON. To the west. + +Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the +third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by +the second? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the +first pair of windows? + +Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor? + +Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take +pictures? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything +had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of +pictures up there? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They +weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of +there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it +not? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Detective Montgomery? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the +sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the +shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and +the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was +made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the +paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper +bag. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was this found? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. On what floor? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Which corner? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my +partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he +unfolded it. + +Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded? + +Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small +package. + +Mr. BELIN. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the +first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the +building? + +Mr. JOHNSON. It still would be over toward the east from the windows. + +Mr. BELIN. It would be east of the windows? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not +too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition +Exhibit"--that appears to be G--it is picture No. 26, there are some +pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical +pipes? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those +vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of +the sixth floor near the east corner? + +Mr. JOHNSON. That sack would be over near the corner of the building +here [pointing]. + +Mr. BELIN. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of +the sack be sticking out west of the pipes? + +Mr. JOHNSON. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here. + +Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been +east of the pipes. Is that correct? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was +east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is +where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it +up. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I +was, and I had already walked off to where he was. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself +in that picture--it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that +correct? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't compare it to that book carton. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to +the north of where the sack was found? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way +around this thing. + +I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that +is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene--you see, +there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I +don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This +might be just one sitting out over there out of the way. + +Mr. BELIN. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, +at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this +deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me---- + +Mr. JOHNSON. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a +little longer than those book cartons. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned +rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G--does any portion of that +rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that +is the southeast corner? + +Mr. JOHNSON. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was +laying there. That would show it unfolded. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is +actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you +are saying? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual +size. + +Mr. BELIN. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and +sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this +penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you +saw the sack? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my +partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was +from the wall in either direction, I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in +rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner +of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in +that corner--in the southeast corner of that building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about +that sack? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and +we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle +case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he +probably brought it in. + +That is why, the reason we saved it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that +you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the +assassination is concerned? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else +that was preserved as evidence? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. JOHNSON. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr. +Pepper bottle. + +Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is it? + +Mr. JOHNSON. We turned it into the crime lab. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean your police department crime lab? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know? + +Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are +talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast +corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I +never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they +did use it for something. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way +whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination? + +Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything else. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr. +Johnson. + +You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of +your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive +the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in +Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing +of it? + +Mr. JOHNSON. I'd better read it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SEYMOUR WEITZMAN + +The testimony of Seymour Weitzman was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Weitzman, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson, the +court reporter. Will you please stand and raise your right hand? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Seymour Weitzman. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Deputy constable, Dallas County. + +Mr. BALL. What is the location of your place of business? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Precinct 1 which is the old courthouse, third floor, room +351. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Were you educated here in this State? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Partially here and Indiana. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I went through college, graduated in engineering, 1945. + +Mr. BALL. When did you come to Texas? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Do you mean back to Texas? + +Mr. BALL. Back to Texas. + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Right after the service was over and when I came out of +the service. + +Mr. BALL. Did you graduate from school before you went into the service? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I finished up after I received my discharge. I went back +to Indiana to engineering school in South Bend and finished my degree +in 1945. + +Mr. BALL. What school? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Allison Division of General Motors Engineering School. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to Dallas? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Went in business for myself. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of business? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Dresses, garments, ladies garments. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for +Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I supervised 26 +stores for them for approximately 15 years. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which +is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex. +We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson, +Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the +discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, +precinct 1. + +Mr. BALL. You've been there ever since as deputy constable? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I was with another deputy, Bill Hutton. + +Mr. BALL. A deputy constable? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he and I were standing there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we +turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots. + +Mr. BALL. You say you turned and were starting back to the +courthouse--what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at +the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street +entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we +thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean +at that second. + +Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Three distinct shots. + +Mr. BALL. How were they spaced? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. First one, then the second two seemed to be +simultaneously. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the first and then there was a pause? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. There was a little period in between the second and third +shot. + +Mr. BALL. What was the longest, between the first and second or the +second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Between the first and second shot. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, +it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, +whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was +shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall. + +Mr. BALL. What is the location of that wall? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't +remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's +cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the +monument section? + +Mr. BALL. That's where Elm actually dead ends? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands +grabbed steampipes. I burned them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go into the railroad yards? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you notice in the railroad yards? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make +sense because they were going different directions. + +Mr. BALL. Were there other people there besides you? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and +somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back +over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to +be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote +this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told +them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I +later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull. + +Mr. BALL. That you picked up off the street? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What part of the street did you pick this up? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. As the President's car was going off, it would be on the +left-hand side of the street. It would be the---- + +Mr. BALL. The left-hand side facing---- + +Mr. WEITZMAN. That would be the south side of the street. + +Mr. BALL. It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. It was in the street itself. + +Mr. BALL. On the pavement? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the curb? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the +curb, something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Off record discussion.) + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, we entered the building and started to search +floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third +floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, I forget, +I believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in +charge of the floor, I forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's +office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. He wanted that gun and it +was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's +department, I can't remember his name, he and I proceeded until we---- + +Mr. BALL. Was his name Boone? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over +the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I +was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking +on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and +I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was +covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye +because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that +gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building. + +Mr. BALL. Did you touch it? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime +lab came up and removed the gun itself. + +Mr. BALL. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I +remember Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz remove anything from the gun? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, I returned to my office and I was called down +to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had +seen. + +Mr. BALL. I have three pictures here which I have marked, respectively, +D, E, F. I show you D first. Does that look anything like the location +where you found the gun? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was +looking under. + +Mr. BALL. Looking from the top side of this picture? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top +side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I +was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in +here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean "in here"? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. In this area [indicating] because at the time we found +the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun. + +Mr. BALL. In this area, you mean protruding over the gun? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it was more hidden than there. + +Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked E. Does that look anything like +the area where the gun was found? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked F. Is that another picture of +the same area? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; as well as I remember, the gun was right in +here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Would you mind making a mark there with a pen? That is on +F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow in ink on F shows the +location? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Down on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Shows the location of the gun on the floor? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything between the place the gun was found; were +there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway +and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but +see it if it was in the open. + +Mr. BALL. Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the +place where the gun was found. + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Same area. + +Mr. BALL. The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was +found? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Off record discussion.) + +Mr. BALL. In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police +Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser +bolt action? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. In a glance, that's what it looked like. + +Mr. BALL. That's what it looked like--did you say that or someone else +say that? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. No; I said that. I thought it was one. + +Mr. BALL. Are you fairly familiar with rifles? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods +business awhile. + +Mr. BALL. What branch of service were you in? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. U.S. Air Force. + +Mr. BALL. Did you handle rifles? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols. + +Mr. BALL. In the Air Force, what were you? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I started out as a flying sergeant. + +Mr. BALL. You flew the plane? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you end up? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I was overseas in Japan. + +Mr. BALL. You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., +is that correct? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there +because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it. + +Mr. BALL. In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the +rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber. + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He did eject one live round? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live +round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not +considering that a shell. + +Mr. BALL. I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal +Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it +looked. + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I? + +Mr. BALL. Mauser bolt action. + +Mr. WEITZMAN. And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was +2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it +turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance. + +Mr. BALL. You also said it was a gun metal color? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Gray or blue? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Blue metal. + +Mr. BALL. And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that +worn? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but +dark oak brown. + +Mr. BALL. Rough wood, was it? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; rough wood. + +Mr. BALL. And it was equipped with a scope? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was it of Japanese manufacture? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. +I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned +out to be a Japanese scope, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to +some yardman? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during +the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw +something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence +and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a +firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was +before we knew the President was dead. + +Mr. BALL. Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was +a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went +over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back +toward the jail. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you have any desire to read this over +and sign it or will you waive signature? + +Mr. WEITZMAN. I will waive my signature. I don't think the Government +is going to alter my statement any. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. R. WESTBROOK + +The testimony of Capt. W. R. Westbrook was taken at 9 a.m., on April +6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. W. R. Westbrook. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your address? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time it is 7642 Daingerfield, Apartment +C, and another address is Route 2, Quinton. I live at both of them. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Captain of police. + +Mr. BALL. The Commission has asked us to put something in the record +about everybody's past experience. Can you tell me about where you were +born--they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read +about you. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I was born in Benton, Ark., November 9, 1917. I was a +farm boy and came to Dallas in 1937, and went on the police department +June 13, 1941, and I served as a radio patrolman for approximately 4 +years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about 6 or 7 years, +and was promoted to captain in 1952, and have held that position since. + +Mr. BALL. What are your duties in general, captain? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time I am personnel officer. We conduct +all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police, +and then we make--we investigate all personnel complaints--not all of +them, but the major ones. + +Mr. BALL. Do you wear a uniform? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it is optional. I don't wear one. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you assigned any special duty? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; other than just my own routine duties. + +Mr. BALL. What were those duties that day? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. 8:15 to 5:15. + +Mr. BALL. And were you in uniform on that day? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I was in my office and Mrs. Kinney, one of the +dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course--it's the +same as everybody says--we didn't believe it until a second look at her +and I realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here +because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and +I don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some +more men at this Texas Depository Building. + +You know, I didn't review my report before I came over here--I didn't +have a chance. I just came off of vacation and they hit me with this +this morning as soon as I got to the office. I can't recall whether or +not it was the dispatcher's office, but I think it was--somebody in the +dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the Texas +Depository Building, so I sent the men that were in my office, which +were then Sergeants Stringer and Carver, and possibly Joe Fields and +McGee, if they were in there--it seems like McGee was, and I think--I +sent them to the building, and then I walked on down the hall spreading +the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down +there, and practically everybody left immediately. I sat around a +while--really not knowing what to do because of the--almost all of +the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and +I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas +Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a +car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository +Building, and I would stop on the way down where there would be a group +of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and I would stop and +catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until I reached +the building. + +Do you want me to continue on? + +Mr. BALL. Go right ahead, sir. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. After we reached the building, or after I reached the +building, I contacted my sergeant Sgt. R. D. Stringer, and he was +standing in front and so then I went into the building to help start +the search and I was on the first floor and I had walked down an aisle +and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when I came out on +this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer +killed in Oak Cliff. + +Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel +officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at +that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman--I don't +recall his name--then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer +Tippit had been shot and killed. + +Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, +and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came +over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into +the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to +that location and it was a false--it was just one of the actually--it +was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news +somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about +Kennedy. + +So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent, +and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an +eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a +lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened. + +Mr. BALL. Where was your car parked at that time? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It wasn't my car--we didn't have one. I don't know where +this officer went after he let us out at the scene. + +Mr. BALL. An officer drove you down to the scene? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. An officer drove us to the scene. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. We were at the squad car--Tippit's squad car--it had +never been moved. + +Mr. BALL. You were near 10th and Patton? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. And she was telling us what had occurred. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No; the other officers got it. + +Mr. BALL. Was it a Mrs. Markham? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It could have been, sir; I don't recall, because I +directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but +she lived directly across the street, and she told us--or was in the +process of telling us how it occurred--what she had seen, when someone +hollered a patrolman hollered--"It's just come over the radio that +they've got a suspicious person in the Texas Theatre." + +Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, +and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we +arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to +turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because +I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or +three at the back. + +So, I and Barrett--Stringer went to another door, and I and Barrett--we +stopped at the first one--we got out and walked to this first entrance +that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee +of the theatre. + +Again, I do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed--I +don't think I said anything to him--I think he told me, he said, "The +man you are looking for--" Now, right here, Barrett and I became +separated for a short minute or two. I think he was on the other side +of the stage, and I'm not for sure, but this boy reported--he pointed +to a man that was sitting about the middle--the middle row of seats +pretty close to the back and he said, "That is the man you are looking +for." + +And I started toward him and I had taken about two or three steps--down +the steps. + +Mr. BALL. Down the steps from the stage? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. From the stage--yes, sir. Now, I feel sure, and at the +time I think I knew--I'm not sure if I included that in the report, but +I think Barrett was going down the other steps. I think we separated +right there and he got on the other side. + +Mr. BALL. Which side were you on? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I was facing the audience--I would be on the right side. + +Mr. BALL. Facing the audience--that would be on the right side? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I was on the right side. + +Mr. BALL. And if you were facing the screen you would have been on the +left? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I would have been on the left. + +Mr. BALL. The man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the +aisle, if you were facing the screen? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and I +don't know just exactly which--it was the third or fourth row from the +back, it seemed like. + +Mr. BALL. And near what aisle? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. He was about the middle of the aisle. + +Mr. BALL. He was about the middle of the aisle? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time +I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then +Officer McDonald--of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell +it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio +patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and +made a contact, and they started struggling. + +Mr. BALL. You say "the boy come up," what did he do? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. He got up from the seat and they started fighting. + +Mr. BALL. Were the lights on in the theatre? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the +lights were on very dim. + +Mr. BALL. They started fighting--what sort of fighting did you see? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and +McDonald grab him. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the +way he was sitting facing me--I would say it would be his left fist. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you see? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running +and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on +him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the +aisle--he got there at the same time I did. + +I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and +finally some officer--I don't know which one it was--says, "Yes; I have +the gun." + +Mr. BALL. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either +McDonald or anyone else? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I heard Oswald say something about police +brutality--Oswald yelled something about police brutality. + +Mr. BALL. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you +hear McDonald say anything? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from +where I was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear the man say anything? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think +that was just all he yelled--was said while I was in the aisle walking +down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that +time. + +Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. They were putting the handcuffs on him--they had one +handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and +they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many +hands there. + +Mr. BALL. How many officers were there? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. In fact--that was one of the only humorous things about +the whole thing--somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were +twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled--I remember that, +"My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of +the crowd that somebody grabbed. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at +the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with +Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and +grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of +the shotgun; did you see that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened +without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the +struggle. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody ever tell you that story before? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I've heard that. + +Mr. BALL. That's the first time you have ever heard it? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was +in play. + +Mr. BALL. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who +approached Oswald have a gun in their hand? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. In the theatre--I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any at any other time? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library. + +Mr. BALL. But did you enter the theatre with a gun? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, no. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform +within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir--not that I recall, but of course at that time +I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I +probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been +somebody come in with a shotgun. + +Mr. BALL. Were you in uniform at that time? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then--some +way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald--where this was going on, and +I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about like this---- + +Mr. BALL. That's close to a foot? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; I'd say 10 inches. + +Mr. BALL. Ten inches. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so +that was the only thing. Then I yelled--there was so much confusion and +it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get +him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city +hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left +with him. + +Mr. BALL. Were you the senior officer there? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Possibly--I don't think there was another captain there. +There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and +take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time. + +Mr. BALL. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have +only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the +time--the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure +at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have +patrons. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him, +as close to him as you did in the theatre? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It seemed like there was a scratch or something--I don't +remember exactly--when I looked at him--maybe a slight discoloration, +or it might have been bleeding slightly. + +Mr. BALL. Under the right eye? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I believe it would be--you--yes, sir; it would be under +the right eye. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Sergeant Warren on the right---- + +Mr. BALL. What is his full name? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left--I don't +know--I don't know his name. Of course, I know him. + +Mr. BALL. That's Sergeant Warren on the right? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is his assignment? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. He is jail supervisor. + +Mr. BALL. And do you know when the picture was taken? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on +Oswald's face. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little +discoloration there--I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit +more so than it does there, but you can see some. + +Mr. BALL. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise. + +Mr. BALL. The bruise under the eye? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him. + +Mr. BALL. Under which eye? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I think it was the right eye--no, wait a minute, that +would be the left eye--left eye. + +Mr. BALL. You do recall that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. The one that was facing me--he was facing me. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye--when? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many +officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the +group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to +straighten up, with as many officers as there were there--I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise +under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just +from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the +fact that he had hollered "brutality"--well I'm getting ahead of myself +here, so I'll just quit. + +Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as +soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on +his face, I sent him on upstairs. + +Mr. BALL. As soon as Oswald arrived? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do +with Oswald after he got to the city hall. + +Mr. BALL. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather +long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture +made--there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession. + +Mr. BALL. That was Officer McDonald--you had his picture taken +immediately of his face? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. What happened after that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him--with +Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him taken from the theatre? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; because I went the other way. + +Mr. BALL. You went to the back? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald +again--that's the last time I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do after that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever find some clothing? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That was before, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. When was that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Actually, I didn't find it--it was pointed out to me by +either some officer that--that was while we were going over the scene +in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out +a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and +told the officer to take the license number. + +Mr. BALL. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what +you had done, but you omitted this incident. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I tell you what--this occurred shortly--let me think +just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit +more conversation on the radio--I got on the radio and I asked the +dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the +library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was +in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that +time we saw Sergeant Owens pass. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "command post"? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the definition--the way we place a command +post--maybe I can use another illustration. + +If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there +should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens, +as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but +let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire. + +In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of +Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we +didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons +was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, +but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the +library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street--I +would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would +be West Jefferson--because 10th comes through--yes; that would be West +Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene. + +Mr. BALL. That was after you left the library? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. After we left the library. I got out of the car and +walked through the parking lot. + +Mr. BALL. What parking lot? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't know--it may have been a used-car lot. + +Mr. BALL. On what street? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this +jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. The alley of what? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over +there. + +Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is the street north. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. What street? + +Mr. BALL. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th +Street. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street? + +Mr. BALL. And where with reference to Patton? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of +Patton--I guess it would be east of Patton. + +Mr. BALL. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be +toward Patton? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Toward town--if I could see a map? + +Mr. BALL. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness]. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I used to be very familiar with that. + +Mr. BALL. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located--here +is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland, +Storey, and Crawford--I would say it would be between Crawford and +Storey. + +Mr. BALL. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there. + +Mr. BALL. That would be west of Patton. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That would be west of Patton--yes, sir; toward the +theatre. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you came from the library--where is that library? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must +be here on Turner Plaza right here. + +Mr. BALL. You drove west on Jefferson, did you? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. We drove west on Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. And you got out of the car where? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. We got out of the car about here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. At what street? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It was between two streets, and I would say it was +between this Storey and Crawford. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you get out of the car at that time? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Just more or less searching--just no particular +reason--just searching the area. + +Mr. BALL. You were just looking around to see what you could see? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun--I had borrowed a +shotgun from a patrolman. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got out of the car? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking +area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my +location or not, but I think I'm right. + +Mr. BALL. You walked through a car lot, did you? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; and I think I came out--is that a +church--there's a church right there close by. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, there could have been--yes, sir. There was either a +used-car lot or a parking lot--that I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I show you some pictures here. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I would recognize it in the picture. + +Mr. BALL. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of +Crawford and Jefferson. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. At Crawford and Jefferson? + +Mr. BALL. There is a parking area behind that. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. This looks more like it. + +Mr. BALL. The Texaco station? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes--the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket +was found was right along in here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a +parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at +the corner of Crawford and Jefferson? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You walked through there, did you? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through from Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. From Jefferson? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. There is an old house--the only thing--I come down +by this station there--there is an old house there and some of the +officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and +there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further +attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly--this may be it--it +appears to be it right here in the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Put an arrow showing the old house. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I think this is it right here--I can't be positive, but +I think that's it. + +Mr. BALL. Make an arrow with a pen. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. The arrow marks the point of an old house. + +Mr. BALL. That you walked toward, is that right? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have marked that old house? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do and what did you see? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, there were several officers--there were some at +the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a +moment and then I walked on. + +Mr. BALL. You walked where? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I think I come up this way. + +Mr. BALL. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Towards the parking lot--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Behind the Texaco service station? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and +some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be +positive--pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly +under the rear of one of the cars. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a car was it? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take +the make and the license number. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take the number yourself? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No. + +Mr. BALL. What was the name of the officer? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I couldn't tell you that, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37. +Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has +marked "old house." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for +identification.) + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place +where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95." + +Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the +area, was probably right along in here. + +Mr. BALL. Put a circle there in the general area. + +(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. The jacket was underneath a car? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. But, I am guessing on this--slightly underneath a car. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean you are guessing on this--what are you +guessing about? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. About where the jacket was found in this picture. + +Mr. BALL. You mean it was under---- + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was +under the one I put it under or not. + +Mr. BALL. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you +couldn't swear which? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but +I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot. + +Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition. + +Now, you don't know the name of the officer? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things +that were happening so fast. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize anything in that picture? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39. +View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.") + +Mr. WESTBROOK. I still think this is the house here--I think this is +the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket +was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was +some--more room from where the cars were from what is shown there--back +this way. + +Mr. BALL. Point out the old house. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. This one. + +Mr. BALL. Mark it. + +(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, that, I don't believe I could do---- + +Mr. BALL. Was it near the alley? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It was near--but not this close--it don't seem to me. + +Mr. BALL. Not as close as shown in the picture? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It don't seem to me--I can't remember for sure. + +Mr. BALL. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket +over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I +think that would be on 10th Street. + +Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. That is exactly the jacket we found. + +Mr. BALL. That is the jacket you found? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you turned it over to whom? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, it was to this officer--that got the name. + +Mr. BALL. Does your report show the name of the officer? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen--it +was happening so fast you don't remember those things. + +Mr. BALL. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. To 10th and Patton--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And from there you went to the theatre? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't +remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but +anyway, we got together again--probably at 10th and Patton. + +Mr. BALL. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was +brought in? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't +have been. + +Mr. BALL. But it was brought to your office? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. And it was marked by some officer? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or +three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and +told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up +after it. I didn't take it down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly could have--he was in there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the gun unloaded? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the +gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look at any of the shells? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look the gun over? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions? + +Mr. ELY. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left +orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and +you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it? + +Mr. WESTBROOK. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I +don't know who has the list. + +Mr. ELY. That's all. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's +just--the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day +he worked with me. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions? + +Mr. STERN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain. + +Mr. WESTBROOK. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ELMER L. BOYD + +The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964, +in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to +give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BOYD. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. BOYD. Elmer L. Boyd. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. BOYD. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the +Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't +you? + +Mr. BOYD. I think they received one over at the office and they +notified me. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation +is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the +assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of +your investigation. + +Mr. BOYD. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your +life? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro +County--the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about +15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north +of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country +school--it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years +and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my +second grade. The reason I was in the second grade--I had to go through +a primer before I got in the first grade--I didn't fail--I just had to +go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated +from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy +and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the +Navy--I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from +there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D. +Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that--somewhere +around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to--I +transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another +destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of +January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where +I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated +in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was +about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to +Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since. + +I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that +I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started +out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a +collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I +think I worked a couple of more places before then--one for a printing +company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a +while, but I didn't stay there long. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in homicide? + +Mr. BOYD. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957. + +Mr. BALL. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4 +to midnight. + +Mr. BALL. So, on that day you went to work earlier? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. BOYD. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by +this? + +Mr. BALL. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on +Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No. +629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840." + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; we are partners. + +Mr. BALL. Did you prepare that report yourself? + +Mr. BOYD. He and I together prepared it. + +Mr. BALL. When did you prepare it? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--the last part of November--I'm not sure of the +date. + +Mr. BALL. Was it within a week after the events took place that are +recorded there? + +Mr. BOYD. I would say so; yes. + +Mr. BALL. You dictated it to a secretary? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the +secretary and she typed it up. + +Mr. BALL. It was written out in your longhand? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have those longhand notes? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims' +deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it. + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what +you were doing in a notebook? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you work? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you just jot things down as they occur? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have that notebook with you? + +Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know where it is? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of +the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the +particular times, you know, and after I fixed this--I don't recall what +I did with it. I may have torn it up. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at +all times? + +Mr. BOYD. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it, +I'm sure. + +Mr. BALL. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have +anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of +November? + +Mr. BOYD. Of 1963--I don't recall if I have these showups in there or +not--it seems like I did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have it with you? + +Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. Can you get it for me? + +Mr. BOYD. I probably could if I have it. + +Mr. BALL. Will you look it up? + +Mr. BOYD. I will look for it. + +Mr. BALL. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10 +o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me +see it if you still have it? + +Mr. BOYD. All right. + +Mr. BALL. I'll be up there in your department--near Captain Fritz' +office. + +Mr. BOYD. What time--at 10 o'clock? + +Mr. BALL. At 10 o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. BOYD. I'll be there--I come on at 10. + +Mr. BALL. You come on at 10? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then, I'll see you in the morning. + +Mr. BOYD. All right. + +Mr. BALL. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work +early; why was that? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was +assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade +Mart. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you hear that the President had been shot? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; I heard that. + +Mr. BALL. You heard that over the radio, didn't you? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson +called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told +him that--Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the +President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass +and was on his way to Parkland. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go over there? + +Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr. +Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we +went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there +were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front +of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene +of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book +Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also +out there, and he rode back down with us. + +Mr. BALL. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School +Depository Building at that time? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that +they thought that the shot came from--from the Texas Book Store. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard that? + +Mr. BOYD. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that--pulling out--we +were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out +in the car. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you +do? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three +stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to +the top floor--I believe it was the top one--I think it's the seventh +floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle +hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. And you were with whom at that time? + +Mr. BOYD. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the sixth floor? + +Mr. BOYD. We stopped at the sixth floor--you say, did we go down to the +sixth floor? + +Mr. BALL. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what +you did. + +Mr. BOYD. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on +the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose +it was books--boxes of books stacked up back over there that way. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the hulls on the floor? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were +on the floor? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I +think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes. + +Mr. BALL. That was west? + +Mr. BOYD. Right; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Near the windows? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; they were near the windows. + +Mr. BALL. How far west from where the hulls were located? + +Mr. BOYD. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably. + +Mr. BALL. Where, with reference to the rows of windows--there are pairs +of windows--how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were +located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't recall just how many rows of windows +from there it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think +it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast +corner. + +Mr. BALL. Third or fourth? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Pair of windows? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; now--pair of windows--let's see. + +Mr. BALL. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street +side--now, what sort of sack was it? + +Mr. BOYD. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack--it looked +like a lunch sack. + +Mr. BALL. About the size of a lunch sack? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other paper sack around there? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall any if I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where +the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were +found? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you see? + +Mr. BOYD. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had +been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest +corner over there. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that located? + +Mr. BOYD. It was down between some boxes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs +taken of the hulls? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I +believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the +scene of the hulls. + +Mr. BALL. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see +pictures taken there? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there. + +Mr. BALL. By whom? + +Mr. BOYD. Lieutenant Day. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there? + +Mr. BOYD. I saw a lot of officers. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find anything yourself? + +Mr. BOYD. Not on the sixth floor--I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere--near 2 +o'clock--I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been +between 1:30 and 2 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found? + +Mr. BOYD. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been +found? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him eject anything from it? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it +after Lieutenant Day came over there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out. + +Mr. BALL. You heard about it? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't +you? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but +someone--when we got downstairs--someone told Captain Fritz that +Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office. + +Mr. BALL. You say you started to go where? + +Mr. BOYD. Irving, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place +to go to in Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. +He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and +I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the +address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? + +Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like +I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see +him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in +there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought +was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted +to go by there and we carried him there. + +Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had +been arrested for the murder of Tippit? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on +the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the +suspect for the murder of Tippit? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when +we heard about him being arrested over there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you +remember? + +Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there. + +Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there--I +don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, +and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation +room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee +Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office +and he talked to him in there. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; +yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time? + +Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time--? + +Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI +agents. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? + +Mr. BOYD. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr. +Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there. + +Mr. BALL. And who else was there? + +Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner. + +Mr. BALL. He's your other partner? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in +there? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I think there was a Secret Service man there, but +I don't recall--I don't know what his name was. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said. + +Mr. BALL. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said? + +Mr. BOYD. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. Give me the substance. + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. BOYD. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him--I'm +sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he +would quit. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask him where he lived? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he lived over on Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. Did he give the address? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address--I +know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south--I +remember that--he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley +and I remember another thing--Mr. Hosty came in and identified him +himself, you know, as he came in. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean "identified him"? + +Mr. BOYD. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down +there in front of him and told him who he was with. + +Mr. BALL. He told Oswald his name and who he was with? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What else happened? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, they participated in the interrogation--Mr. Hosty asked +him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression--what +happened? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his +house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate +him coming out there when he wasn't there. + +Mr. BALL. Is that what he said to Hosty? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall--I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions +and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down, +and like I say, he was pretty upset. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into +the room? + +Mr. BOYD. I couldn't say if they had or not--they could have been. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got +in the room? + +Mr. BOYD. They could have been changed after he got in the room--I'm +not certain. + +Mr. BALL. Who changed them? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the +desk with what? With his hand? + +Mr. BOYD. With his hands. + +Mr. BALL. What did Hosty ask him before that? + +Mr. BOYD. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City? + +Mr. BALL. Who did? + +Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hosty. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. BOYD. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City. + +Mr. BALL. What else? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall just exactly--I think that the words that he +used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there +and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like +I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming +out there to his house. + +Mr. BALL. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck +the desk with his hand--what question did he ask? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had +something to do with--let me see--I'm not sure if he was still talking +to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City. + +Mr. BALL. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald said he had not? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been to Mexico. + +Mr. BALL. And what did Hosty say to that? + +Mr. BOYD. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City--I've just +forgotten--it wasn't too awful long before that--I don't recall just +exactly what time that he said--I know it was something recent. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand--I don't. + +Mr. STERN. Did he ask him anything about Russia? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; something was asked him--I don't recall who asked +him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he +was there in 1959, or something like that--about 1959. I'll tell you, +I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right +beside Oswald--right in front of him--more or less. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody keep notes? + +Mr. BOYD. I saw the FBI man writing--they had a little book--across the +table over there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have any microphones in there to record the +conversation? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your +prisoners? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; we don't. + +Mr. BALL. How long did this take--how long was he questioned at this +time? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--we took him down to the first showup right after +4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here--4:05 is when we left. + +Mr. BALL. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in +there--what time was that? + +Mr. BOYD. At 2:15-2:20. + +Mr. BALL. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05. + +Mr. BALL. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him? + +Mr. BOYD. Who picked the men? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who picked those men. + +Mr. BALL. Did you? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did Sims? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did--I don't recall who picked those men. + +Mr. BALL. Who were the men in this showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, one of them's names was--we call him Bill Perry, his +name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and +we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables +was No. 4. + +Mr. BALL. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office. + +Mr. BALL. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I have seen them in there before--I mean--it isn't done +real often. + +Mr. BALL. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers. + +Mr. BALL. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It is unusual? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed +with the suspect, isn't it? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case? + +Mr. BOYD. No; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with +you and with Oswald into the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. When we got ready for the showup. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with +Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean +where--where were you when you heard that officers were going to take +part in the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee +Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail +office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection. + +Mr. BALL. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you find? + +Mr. BOYD. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five. + +Mr. BALL. Live? Live shells? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with them? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of +the property up there to be turned in. + +Mr. BALL. Did you put any mark on them? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I can look and see. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will +you take a look at that--at the cartridges? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes--I got my mark on them. + +Mr. BALL. You have your mark on all five of them? + +Mr. BOYD. I have my mark on the first three--yes, sir--I have my mark +on all of them. + +Mr. BALL. On all five of them? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You put those marks on there, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether +these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the +cartridges which you took from Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; they are. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you when you put the mark on them? + +Mr. BOYD. I was back up in my office. + +Mr. BALL. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them? + +Mr. BOYD. I put them in my pocket. + +Mr. BALL. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on +them, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And turned them over to whom? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--it seems like we had a drawer there where +we had some more property, where we put it all in there--you know, +where they had the other stuff--I have forgotten just exactly where it +would be. + +Mr. BALL. You turned them over to someone in the police department? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup +were you on? Stage side or out front? + +Mr. BOYD. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into +that showup room from the room leading into the jail office. + +Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--at one of the showups--I've forgotten whether it +was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--Sims asked +him some questions in one of those showups. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions? + +Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed that were in this showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and +one of them--let's see--I don't recall what color, but some of them--I +don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their +ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves. + +Mr. BALL. Without a tie--did he have a tie on? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers, +Perry? + +Mr. BOYD. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his +shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that. + +Mr. BALL. What about Clark? + +Mr. BOYD. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not +sure--well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember +seeing him in a white shirt as he came in. + +Mr. BALL. Were they manacled--handcuffed? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; they were handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. All four of them? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes--handcuffed together. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald have on? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, he had on some--I believe it was dark slacks--it seems +like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It +seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--I'm not too +sure about that jacket--I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks. + +Mr. BALL. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the +other three, weren't they? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, could have been. + +Mr. BALL. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you +say? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole +in the elbow, didn't he? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did or not--I'm not sure. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did +he reply? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply. + +Mr. BALL. Was he angry? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe he was too angry. + +Mr. BALL. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him shouting. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time? + +Mr. BOYD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did he at some other showup protest? + +Mr. BOYD. I heard he did, but I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present? + +Mr. BOYD. I wasn't present at that one. + +Mr. BALL. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest +of the type of showup? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. This day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a +fair showup? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't +think it was fair to put those men in with him? + +Mr. BALL. He didn't tell me that--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair? + +Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the +audience part of the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I couldn't--I don't recall any of it--I couldn't +hear anything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there? + +Mr. BOYD. I couldn't see them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were +out in the audience? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup? + +Mr. BOYD. I took him back--I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz' +office. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get him back there? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20--I believe--yes; +that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been +off. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present at that interrogation? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--I don't recall who was up there--I think +there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there +and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there. + +Mr. BALL. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one. +I think another one came in--now, I never did know--there was another +one that came in--now, I never did know--then there was another one +that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an +FBI man--I never did know. But someone--I believe, called him back out +right after he got in there, but I'm not sure. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the FBI agents? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How about the Secret Service? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't know their names. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a Secret Service man there? + +Mr. BOYD. I think there was a Secret Service man there. + +Mr. BALL. More than one? + +Mr. BOYD. Just one. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know his name? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see if I have it here. + +Mr. BALL. Was Kelley there? + +Mr. BOYD. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation. + +Mr. BALL. How long did this one last that started at 4:20? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back +downstairs for another showup. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz' +office? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long. + +Mr. BALL. Did you feed Oswald at any time? + +Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall--I don't know--I believe someone asked him if he +wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a +cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall--I don't +recall just exactly the time--that's M. G. Hall. + +Mr. BALL. He's one of your partners? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think--let me see--I know +that he gave him a cup of coffee. + +Mr. BALL. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your +custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that +night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat? + +Mr. BOYD. I ate real late that night--I don't remember just what time +it was. + +Mr. BALL. How late? + +Mr. BOYD. I think I ate around 9 o'clock--I'm not sure about that--it +could have been 10. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you +remember what was said? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I sure don't. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in front or behind? + +Mr. BOYD. They were in front of him, I believe, still. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that took place at that +interrogation--anything that was said? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir--I sure don't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And who was present at that showup? + +Mr. BOYD. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were +numbered the same as they were before. + +Mr. BALL. Were the men dressed any differently? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before. + +Mr. BALL. And do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions? + +Mr. BOYD. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some +questions. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first +showup that afternoon? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day? + +Mr. BOYD. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask questions at any of the showups? + +Mr. BOYD. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I +don't really know. + +Mr. BALL. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions--at +6:20? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; I think he answered the questions. + +Mr. BALL. Was he angry? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being angry. + +Mr. BALL. Did he talk louder than the other three men? + +Mr. BOYD. Not especially that I noticed. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the +audience part of the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what +they said to the officers? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup? + +Mr. BOYD. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what time? + +Mr. BOYD. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we +took him there. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston +[spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill +Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name--they came +in with Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was there too, was he? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What took place there? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee +Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation that took place there at that +time in front of Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was it, that you can remember? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to +Oswald, and--well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of +anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir--I heard--I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to +him about shooting Officer Tippit--I don't remember what interrogation +it was in. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the +President, President Kennedy? + +Mr. BOYD. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the +President. + +Mr. BALL. Who talked to him about it? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe it was Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston +read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said +anything? + +Mr. BOYD. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was. + +Mr. BALL. You don't recall that? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald did make some statement, though? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe he said something--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask for a lawyer? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--I +believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York +City. + +Mr. BALL. When did he say that? When did he tell you that? + +Mr. BOYD. It was--either right before the first showup, or right after +the first showup. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking +to Captain Fritz--yes. + +Mr. BALL. This was in Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did Fritz say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on +for him to use the telephone later on and call him. + +Mr. BALL. Was anything said about who would pay for the call? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. No mention of that? + +Mr. BOYD. I think he said he would call collect--I'm not sure. + +Mr. BALL. Who said that--Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr. +Clements--I believe, came in there. + +Mr. BALL. In where? + +Mr. BOYD. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. And do you remember what he asked him? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked +him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in +Russia--when he went to Russia and when he came back--I don't recall +all of that. + +Mr. BALL. And Oswald answered the questions? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I'll tell you--Oswald, he answered his questions +until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by +another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his +interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and +he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else +to say. + +He came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him +he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, +and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short +interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe +I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't +care to say anything else." + +And sat back down. + +Mr. BALL. He stood up and said that, did he? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair +and said, "I don't care to talk any more." + +Mr. BALL. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't +it? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third +showup that you participated in? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that took place at what time? + +Mr. BOYD. It was 7:30, let me see, no--7:40. + +Mr. BALL. And who took part in that showup? + +Mr. BOYD. You mean the officers? + +Mr. BALL. No; who were the parties in the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2 +was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was--I have the wrong name in here--I +have the last name--I just asked him his name as he came out in the +showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it +was Brazel. + +Mr. BALL. Brazell--how do you spell that? + +Mr. BOYD. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l. + +Mr. BALL. What is his full name? + +Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel. + +Mr. BALL. He was the third man? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was the fourth man? + +Mr. BOYD. Don Ables was the fourth. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the +showup? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't know any reason. + +Mr. BALL. Who directed that? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they +had those three men down there. + +Mr. BALL. What is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup +and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear +in the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and +have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them +send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and +we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four +men--whatever the case may be. + +Mr. BALL. Who picks them? + +Mr. BOYD. The jailers upstairs. + +Mr. BALL. Do you tell them to get them all the same color? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. +I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color. + +Mr. BALL. What about the size and weight? + +Mr. BOYD. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size +and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they +don't. + +Mr. BALL. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup? + +Mr. BOYD. I didn't know them--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or any of the showups? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this third showup took place at what time? + +Mr. BOYD. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3 +minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to +go back up at 7:55. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you +attended? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who did. + +Mr. BALL. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than +the first two. + +Mr. BALL. What about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's +take the No. 1 man--what was his coloring and weight and size? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He +was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161 +pounds. + +Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t? + +Mr. BOYD. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. + +Mr. BALL. 161 pounds? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion. + +Mr. BALL. What was he in for, do you know? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and +theft. + +Mr. BALL. Then, the second man was who? + +Mr. BOYD. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. And the third man--was who? + +Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l. + +Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was No. 3 and what is his description? + +Mr. BOYD. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10", +169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion. + +Mr. BALL. What was he in for? + +Mr. BOYD. I think he was in for tickets. + +Mr. BALL. You mean, going too fast--speeding? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue +tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what I +think he was in for. + +Mr. BALL. And Don Ables is the fourth man? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too? + +Mr. BOYD. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds. + +Mr. BALL. What do you have Oswald down for? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he +was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds--I believe that is +what he told me. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Or to Brazel? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner +any different than it had been the first two showups? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall it being any different. + +Mr. BALL. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he +started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset. + +Mr. BALL. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an +hour. + +Mr. BALL. Then, after that what happened? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes +Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came +down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective +Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly +afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes +and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went. + +Mr. BALL. What did Barnes do? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of +Oswald's hands and the right side of his face. + +Mr. BALL. You were there when that happened? + +Mr. BOYD. I was in and out--I was in more than I was out. I was in and +out at the time that was going on. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened--what did you do after that? + +Mr. BOYD. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee +Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald then? + +Mr. BOYD. He was still up in the homicide office. + +Mr. BALL. Did you question him again? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came +in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the +assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he +told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if +anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail. + +Mr. BOYD. What did you do then? + +Mr. BOYD. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so. + +Mr. BALL. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes--describe what +you did? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there. + +Mr. BALL. Television cameras? + +Mr. BOYD. I believe there was some cameras in there--I'm not sure about +the cameras--I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They +had some cameras on the outside. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. We took him up there and some of them asked him some +questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally +we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and +put him in the jail. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald angry? + +Mr. BOYD. Part of the time he was. + +Mr. BALL. What was said--can you remember? + +Mr. BOYD. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you +shoot the President?" + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. BOYD. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone." + +Mr. BALL. You took him on up there, then, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you put him in jail for the night, did you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then you went home and went to bed? + +Mr. BOYD. Later on I did. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work the next day--that would be +November 23. + +Mr. BOYD. I think I got in around 9 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BOYD. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 +and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail +again and brought him down to my office. + +Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that? + +Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you brought him down to your office? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. +marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office +at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was in the office? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz +were there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there. + +Mr. BOYD. Well, he came back out after we got him down there--that's +right. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed there, didn't you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you heard what was said? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us what you heard. + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two. + +Mr. BALL. What were they? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't recall what questions he asked. + +Mr. BALL. Who else asked questions? + +Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz talked to him and--let me see--I don't remember +if Mr. Bookhout--it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two--I +believe all of them asked him something. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what they asked? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like +I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near +Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes; he was handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back? + +Mr. BOYD. They were in the front of him. + +Mr. BALL. How long did this questioning last? + +Mr. BOYD. It didn't last too awful long--about an hour or so, I +believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BOYD. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another +detective in our bureau--went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck +Oswald's room out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go out there then? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm not sure if I had a search warrant--I know +the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search +warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had +a search warrant. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't have one? + +Mr. BOYD. I didn't have one. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know whether you had one or not? + +Mr. BOYD. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it. + +Mr. BALL. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North +Beckley the day before? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And it was searched the day before--you knew that, didn't you? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When you searched it this day, what did you find? + +Mr. BOYD. Nothing. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take anything with you? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You took nothing out? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of furnishings did you see in there? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser--it +barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to +walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works +were--wasn't any wider than that--just about that wide [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. The whole room? + +Mr. BOYD. The whole room. + +Mr. BALL. It wasn't any wider than how many feet? + +Mr. BOYD. I would say it wasn't over about 12 feet long and about 5 +feet wide or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did it have curtains on the windows? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, it had--let's see, I'm not sure if it was curtains or +blinds. It had one little bed in there and it barely did have room +enough to get in there and go to bed. + +Mr. BALL. You don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald again that day? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did--let me see. + +Mr. BALL. Well, it says in your report you brought him in at 6:30. + +Mr. BOYD. I didn't do that. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't do it? You were off duty? + +Mr. BOYD. I wasn't off duty, but I just wasn't at the office at that +time. + +Mr. BALL. You don't think you saw him again? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. What about November 24? + +Mr. BOYD. I worked late on the night of the 23d so I wouldn't have to +come back early the next morning. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you were with him on the 24th? + +Mr. BOYD. I wasn't with him on the 24th--I was watching on the TV at +home--I wasn't at home--I was out at my mother-in-law's at Irving, +Tex., and I called Lieutenant Baker right after I learned about Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. I want to ask you a question about Oswald's appearance when +you first saw him. Did he have any marks on his face? + +Mr. BOYD. He had one markup--I believe it was on his left eye--the +thing that I noticed or was noticeable. And I asked him where he got +that and he said, "Well, I struck an officer and he struck me back." He +said, "Which he should have done." + +Mr. BALL. Did he say "He should have done that?" Did Oswald say that? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I want the exact words, not your version--give me the exact +words. + +Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you--I asked him how he got this place on his eye, +and he says, "Well, I struck an officer and the officer struck me back, +which he should have done." + +Mr. BALL. Those were the exact words? + +Mr. BOYD. Those were the exact words. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything else said about that? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the +officers at the time of the arrest? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever use the term that "police brutality"--did he ever +use that term to you? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality". + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time when a lawyer visited Oswald? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I wasn't present--we asked him, did he want a lawyer +here--Captain Fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he +didn't want a lawyer, he wanted Mr. Abt. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have some questions? + +Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald--the way he handled +himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you? + +Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you, I've never saw another man just exactly like +him. + +Mr. STERN. In what way? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as +soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer +right back--he didn't hesitate about his answers. I mean, as soon as +you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back +and, like I said, I never saw a man that could answer questions like he +did. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once +in a while he would--I don't know just how to tell you, but every now +and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next +minute he would just liable to be--I mean his attitude, you know, would +change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would +be talking to you he was rather calm. + +Mr. STERN. When it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it +change apparently? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody +would say something--some little something he didn't like, and he +would--he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he +jumped up and slapped the desk. + +Mr. STERN. During the Hosty interrogation? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. He seemed to you to understand generally his rights? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And do you know that he wasn't required to answer? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Of course, this was a long day for everybody--did he seem by +the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear +tired or particularly worn out? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, he didn't appear to be as tired as I felt--he didn't +appear to be, because I imagine he could have been tired--he didn't +show it. + +Mr. STERN. This is quite unnatural--really rather exceptional; this is, +of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two +people, one of them the President of the United States, and at the end +of the day, he is pretty well in command? + +Can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed +to you--anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall? + +Mr. BOYD. I don't know--he just struck me as being the man, you know, +who liked to move around a lot--I don't know that he did, but he just +struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and--in +one place. + +Mr. BALL. When you participated in the search of Oswald and found five +pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of +these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to +him about it? + +Mr. BOYD. I just asked him, "What were they doing in there," and he +said, "I just had them in my pocket." + +Mr. STERN. The memorandum mentions the cartridges--bus transfer, except +that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to +Mr. Sims, Do you remember any other items that he had that you got from +him during this search? + +Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I know that Mr. Sims did get the bus transfer and +took his ring--he took his ring off and give it to Mr. Sims, and I got +those five shells, and that's all that I recall being taken from him. + +Mr. STERN. Do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of +that investigation? + +Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm trying to think if he had an identification +bracelet. + +When we were up in Captain Fritz' office the first time--I recall--I +don't recall if I saw that bracelet then or not--it seemed like I did. +I know I saw a little card with his picture on it. + +Mr. STERN. But this was not something you obtained in your search? + +Mr. BOYD. No; I didn't. + +Mr. STERN. That had been obtained earlier, apparently. + +That's all. Do you have anything else? + +Mr. ELY. Yes. Mr. Boyd, when you first saw Oswald when you went to the +interrogation room and got him--do you remember that? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your +arrival? + +Mr. BOYD. I am not positive about who was with him--there's some +uniformed men in there and I believe there was Officer K. E. Lyons, +but I would be afraid to say for sure, because I'm not positive, but I +believe that's who it was. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they +talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know? + +Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't know. I just took it that they were the ones +that brought him into--into the office up there. They were more or less +just waiting for somebody. + +I just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the +Texas Theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our +office from Oak Cliff. + +Mr. ELY. Now, referring to the press conference Friday night, I believe +you mentioned that part of the time Oswald seemed angry to you, do you +know what it was that upset him? + +Mr. BOYD. When someone called to him and asked him why he shot the +President, that seemed like that's what upset him. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked +the people in the various lineups--you don't know exactly, but did you +know, is there anybody you could tell us? + +Mr. BOYD. I just don't know who it would be. + +Mr. ELY. On Friday night, about what time did you check Oswald into the +jail there? + +Mr. BOYD. I think it was around 12:20 in the morning, I believe. +According to my watch, I believe that's what I went by--that's what the +time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. We turned him +over to the jailers at 12:23 a.m. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again +after that time? Late at night--I realize you checked him out the next +morning. + +Mr. BOYD. No sir; I don't know. + +Mr. ELY. You I don't know? + +Mr. BOYD. No. + +Mr. ELY. I believe that's all I have. + +Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Boyd, this will be written up and it will be +submitted to you and you can read it over and correct it and sign it +if you wish. That's one procedure you can follow. + +Or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the +Commission as it is if you waive your signature. You have your +option--you can do either one. + +Mr. BOYD. I think she probably got it down all right--I'll trust her. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you are waiving your signature? + +Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much, and I am glad to have met you. + +Mr. BOYD. Glad to have met you, Mr. Ball. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEE STUDEBAKER + +The testimony of Robert Lee Studebaker was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April +6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this +Commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, +so help you God? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. R. L. Studebaker--Robert Lee. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to appear here to give testimony +in this inquiry, have you not, by your Chief of Police, who told you +that we had a matter requiring your testimony? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The subject of the testimony is the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +You made certain investigations on November 22 and 23 and 24 with +respect to that, did you not? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you +tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went +to school, and what your training is? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several +schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and +came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since +February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene +Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work +that you are doing? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's just on-the-job training--you go out with old +officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and +fingerprints. + +Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in identification +fingerprints? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we +are. We just compare them. + +Mr. BALL. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that +we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for +the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and +things, we have a special powder that we used on that. + +Mr. BALL. Then you take a picture of the print--a photograph? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just +lift the print and then tape it to preserve it. + +Mr. BALL. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising it up; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. By means of your dusting powder? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up +there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what +it's used for. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 a.m. + +Mr. BALL. In the morning? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What are your hours--7 to 3? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 to 3. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go down there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I believe we got the call about 1:05--we was down there +about 1:15. + +Mr. BALL. And whom did you go with? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call. + +Mr. BALL. What equipment did you take with you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. +We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff--a station wagon. + +Mr. BALL. Each one of you had a camera, did you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we just had one camera. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of camera was it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex. + +Mr. BALL. Have you had some experience in operating a camera? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How much? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on this certain camera? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. About 2 months. + +Mr. BALL. But you have had photography in your crime lab work? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. For how long? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Was about 2 months. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you done photography altogether? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. In my lifetime? + +Mr. BALL. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of +years? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st +of October. + +Mr. BALL. You did--had you done any photography before that? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just home photography. + +Mr. BALL. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you +mentioned? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what else? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck +complete. + +Mr. BALL. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for +different substances? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many different kinds of powder do you have? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting +prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano +powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we +purchased this new powder--it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of +powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out +of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better +than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print +than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder--a magnetic +powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a +silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on +different types surfaces. + +Mr. BALL. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which +is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that +it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent +fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your +skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until +you put your powder on there and then it raises it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book +Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the +sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as +soon as you arrived there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there. + +Mr. BALL. After you were there a little while, did somebody find +something? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of +the building--they found three empty hulls and we went over there and +took photographs of that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have that photograph with you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Could I see it, please? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day +took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took +myself--these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one +was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here, +and a hull over here. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you +took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit +A," for identification.) + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the +bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull--you can just +barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, +the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one--I didn't +know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull +this way. + +You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get +over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on +everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was +ever moved or picked up. + +There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two +recopies. We printed a bunch of them. + +Mr. BALL. Is this the same picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there +either. + +Mr. BALL. It doesn't show it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box. + +Mr. BALL. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is +Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit +B." + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit +B," for identification.) + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing +west, and this one here is facing east. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the +camera facing west? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Exhibit B is what? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Facing east. + +Mr. BALL. You are facing east? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those +pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on +every one of those. + +Mr. BALL. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your +Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, +they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the +northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded +everything up and carried it over there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures +of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots +apiece. + +Mr. BALL. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was +located? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the +gun? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, I don't. + +Mr. BALL. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as +"Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the +gun--that was before anyone moved it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have another shot of that other picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, we took two from the same location when we was up +on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it +up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are +all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on +different exposures. + +Mr. BALL. You took some other pictures, didn't you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was that before any of them were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That picture right there is the one that shows them, +and the other pictures show them before they were moved. + +Mr. BALL. You mean Exhibit A and B? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. A and B. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a +shot of those boxes in the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. This one, Exhibit A, shows that--this is the +exact--now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the +indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved, +and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or +another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known +what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print--picked out a +better print. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the way they were piled up? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, just exactly like that. + +Mr. BALL. And you say there is an indentation on that box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. That shows in the picture. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it +look a little heavier? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. There was an indentation in the box, was there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them +all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers--that was carried +from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is +another box that was taken off of this stack--this stack right here. + +Mr. BALL. Is it shown in the picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It will show on another negative. + +Mr. BALL. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by +"another box taken from this stack here." + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box right under this. + +Mr. BALL. Right under what? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right under this box. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean +the little Rolling Readers? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. There are two boxes stacked up here--here's one, and +here's one. + +Mr. BALL. Were they both Rolling Readers? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these +books was underneath. + +Mr. BALL. It's marked "books"? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked +"Rolling Readers"? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; Second Rolling Readers. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they taken from? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they stacked in the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was +moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you take this picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted. + +Mr. BALL. That's after they were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints +right there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved +other than those you have showed me? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just these two. + +Mr. BALL. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A +and B? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have probably got one down there I can get you that +is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get +it for you. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before +they were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as +"Exhibit D," was that taken by you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they +were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust +on every box. + +Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw +them? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with +reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the +left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window +sill? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Where is your other picture--and I will show you? See +this box right here--this box? + +Mr. BALL. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, +you can read it right here--it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling +Readers." + +Mr. BALL. That says 10. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling +Reader--it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up +there, they go by this right here, this little print. Now, this box +was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it +is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top +box. + +Mr. BALL. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is Exhibit B. + +Mr. BALL. It was on the window ledge? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right +there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned +up on end. + +Mr. BALL. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a +description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is +stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in +this other print. You can't see it in this print. + +Mr. BALL. What other print? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your +exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your +negative. + +Mr. BALL. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in +Exhibit A. + +Mr. BALL. Wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to Exhibit +B, does it show a box on the window ledge? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box--the Second Rolling Readers. + +Mr. BALL. That picture was taken before the box was moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the +Rolling Readers box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And underneath that was another box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Another Rolling Reader box? + +Mr. BALL. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. A box marked "books". + +Mr. BALL. It was larger in size? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was larger in size. + +Mr. BALL. Than the Rolling Readers box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on +its end or on its side? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along +here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this +print--this is just a bad print. + +Mr. BALL. When you say "in this," what is it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. This is Exhibit--what is it? + +Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit A. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A--it was standing on end. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit A--can you tell me looking at Exhibit A +whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of +the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the +center, or over at the right. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking +towards Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. How close to the edge of the sill? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right at the edge. + +Mr. BALL. Right at the edge? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box +shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas +School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were +fired at President Kennedy. + +Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified +in Exhibit A is shown in that picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the top corner. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's this corner right here. + +Mr. BALL. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Have you got a ballpoint pen? + +(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by +Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the +right of the window as you stand looking out of the window. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It would be these boxes back over in here--it would be +the top of those boxes. + +Mr. BALL. How far were they away from the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I would have to look at the measurements--I have the +measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that +picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one. + +Mr. BALL. You are referring to Exhibit A? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A. + +Mr. BALL. And it is the row of boxes? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's +all it is. + +Mr. BALL. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was. + +Mr. BALL. Let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the +Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the +people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle +an "X" circle and mark it out here--mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" +circle. + +(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by +Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" +circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window +sill itself? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Sitting right on the sill. + +Mr. BALL. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" +circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the +window. + +Mr. BALL. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, on A and B. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there--in the southeast corner of the +building--folded. + +Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper--I don't know what it was. + +Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top +two were Rolling Readers? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east. + +Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner. + +Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that +said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures--one of the shots +after the duplicate shot. + +Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from +the FBI called me down--I can't think of his name, and he wanted an +approximate location of where the paper was found. + +Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water +pipes in the corner there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper +wrapping? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it--right here. + +Mr. BALL. Was it folded over? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long +and it was doubled over. + +Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know--I picked it up and dusted it and they +took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have +seen of it, and I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures. + +Mr. BALL. Was it near the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which way from the window? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was east of the window. + +Mr. BALL. Over in the corner? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the +building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where +it was. + +Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders. + +Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was. +There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of +tape on it to preserve it. + +Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print. + +Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small. + +Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with +some paper? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have--it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it +just strictly for fingerprinting. + +Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over +it--I'm sure I did. + +Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You lifted a print off of a box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and +it was, I believe, we have it that it was--I can read the measurements +off of one of these things--how far it was. + +Mr. BALL. Fine, do that. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was 16-1/2 inches from the--from this wall over here +(indicating). + +Mr. BALL. Which wall are you talking about? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was from the south wall of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was +moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The box from which you lifted the prints? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box never was moved. + +Mr. BALL. That box never was moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That box never was moved. + +Mr. BALL. And you took a picture of it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of +it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time--they were +with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and +help us in case they were needed. + +Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery--they were with me all the time +over in that one corner. + +Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location. + +Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was +found? + +(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. That would be directly south? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be directly south of where the box was. + +Mr. BALL. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast +corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is 16 inches from the south wall. + +Mr. BALL. You say you lifted a print there off of this box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And now, is that shown in the picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the +picture? Describe what you see there. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it +would be the northwest corner of the box. + +Mr. BALL. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. A palm. + +Mr. BALL. It was a palm print? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And does it show the direction of the palm? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Which way? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. West. + +Mr. BALL. It would be made with the hand---- + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. With the right hand sitting on the box. + +Mr. BALL. And the fingers pointed west, is that it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that is the outline shown in this picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show--did you attempt to +show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; could I? + +Mr. BALL. Did you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Did I do this? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the +direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm +print was made? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm +print? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; just the palm print. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of +the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. +B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you take a picture of it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see that one. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. All right--it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper +sack that was sitting there in the picture. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see that one. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.) + +There are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. That +was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a +shot--I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is +marked--it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the +third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. +That was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those +chicken bones and all that mess was in there too. + +Mr. BALL. Is the sack shown there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right +there. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And it shows--it has some chicken bones in it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. None outside the sack? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put +right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too. + +Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which +shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. And that's your No. 7. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That's the third row over? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows--it would +be--one, two, three. + +Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street--you mark it. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel +Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the +southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the +paper sack? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke +Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one +of the boxes; did you see anything like that? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in +one of these pictures, if it is. + +Mr. BALL. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by +numbers, did you not? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge +to the sidewalk, didn't you? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many feet? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Let me see--61 feet from the window ledge to the +sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that +no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call +him, if you want to. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I already have taken some of them. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of +them--it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more +would make any difference. This is out of a master set--all of these +pictures you have here. + +Mr. BALL. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the +position they were in. + +Mr. BALL. It is? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes--not--this was after they were moved, but I put +them back in the same exact position. + +Mr. BALL. Were they that close--that was about the position? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, +which will be "Exhibit J." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put +them back in the same position? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And took a picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit J, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here. +Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. You want 1 marked on this box? + +(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the +box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. And outline the indentation with a circle. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that +which is shown in the circle on 3? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. That's the only one? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured +he might have stacked them up. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I +told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned +around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I +dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and +started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of +that box. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that +box in your crime lab? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning +and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our +evidence and I haven't seen it since. + +Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's +print. + +Mr. BALL. He did? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print. + +Mr. BALL. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard +before you moved it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it +and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner +of this box down there. + +Mr. BALL. They just took the top part of the box down there? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it +back--that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I +don't know what was going on. + +Mr. BALL. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit +J---- + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. This picture has the palm print on it. + +Mr. BALL. It has the palm print--it had been removed and had been +identified and brought back and put in the box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It had been brought back and put in the box and as +being Oswald's right palm print. + +Mr. BALL. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found. + +Mr. BALL. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes +back where you first saw them? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then you took a picture? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Before the boxes were moved? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And before the palm print was identified? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken +bones in it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was +found? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, no prints. + +Mr. BALL. Or the two-wheeler truck? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. No prints? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No. + +Mr. BALL. You dusted around there for them? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. I dusted everything around that area. There was just +smears and smudges on the bottom. + +Mr. BALL. Did you dust the rifle? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I +didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and +they worked on it down there at the lab. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have the measurements of the boxes? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have all the measurements. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Down at the city hall. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take Exhibit J--how did the height of the little +Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the +box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than +the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture. + +Mr. BALL. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want +to mark it "4"--the box in the window? + +Mr. BALL. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches +lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other +subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him. + +Mr. STERN. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think +it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes +were placed that way? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. A good gun rest. + +Mr. STERN. In that arrangement? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, it was a good gun rest. + +Mr. STERN. With the box in front lower than the box behind? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. In other words, it's like this--you see--it would be +down on a level like this--it shows where the butt of the gun was up +behind him here. He was down like this--nobody could see him from the +street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because +everybody would be looking right at him. + +Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper that you saw--you saw the +wrapper--tell me about how big that paper bag was--how long was it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3-1/2 to 4 feet long. + +Mr. BALL. The paper bag? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 8 inches. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it +will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read +it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your +signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission. + +Which do you prefer? + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Whichever is the easiest for you. + +Mr. BALL. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, +but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I will read it and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right. She will notify you. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Okay. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. + +Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF C. N. DHORITY + +The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present. + + +Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before +the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. DHORITY. C. N. Dhority. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. DHORITY. Detective with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to +the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you +not? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to come up here and give your +testimony? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to +your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you +not? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with +the Department? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and +lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the +rest of the time. + +I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946. + +Mr. BALL. What department do you work with? + +Mr. DHORITY. I work for Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Homicide? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Homicide Department? + +Mr. DHORITY. Since 1955. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work? + +Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. Was that the time you usually went to work? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, I was off that day. + +Mr. BALL. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day? + +Mr. DHORITY. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work. + +Mr. BALL. And you went to work at the main office of the Police +Department? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You arrived at about 2 p.m.? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you usually work with another detective? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. H. H. Blessing. + +Mr. BALL. Was he on duty that day with you? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been +in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether +he was there that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you +came to work? + +Mr. DHORITY. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a +patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau. + +Mr. BALL. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to +work? + +Mr. DHORITY. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all +ringing. + +Mr. BALL. And did you later see Lee Oswald? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About what time was the first time you saw him? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall exactly what time it was--he was in Captain +Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit +in a group where Oswald was questioned? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect +to the investigation of the President's assassination? + +Mr. DHORITY. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got +Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought +him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him. + +Mr. BALL. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during +the showup? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what time? + +Mr. DHORITY. About 6:30. I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. You two men were with him? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't +there; some other witnesses? + +Mr. DHORITY. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup +room. + +Mr. BALL. At the showup room? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of them? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time? + +Mr. DHORITY. Whaley, that's a cabdriver? + +Mr. BALL. The cabdriver. + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe that was that night--I was thinking that +was the next day. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company +down there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk +to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall the names. + +Mr. BALL. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters, +were you not? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle--a detective? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--he could have been--there was quite a few +officers there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what occurred at the showup? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the +four-man lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I wasn't holding the showup. I was just +with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did +that. + +Mr. BALL. What did McWatters say to you? + +Mr. DHORITY. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and +said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he +believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he +identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective +Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the +transfer as his transfer. + +Mr. BALL. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Right after he had made an identification? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of Oswald? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by +McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please? + +Mr. DHORITY. [Examined instrument referred to.] + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit +from Mr. McWatters? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on +the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and +picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man +was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was +not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This +man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight." + +Now, you read that, didn't you? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man +that he had seen before doing what--did he tell you? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he +picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man. + +I don't know whether you've talked to him or not. + +Mr. BALL. Yes, I have. + +Mr. DHORITY. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you +talk to him--he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, +"Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else. + +Mr. BALL. Well, what I want to know is this--he identified Oswald, but +did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had +done? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought +he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some +man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the +President had been shot? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't know exactly for word to word--it's in the +affidavit there. + +Mr. BALL. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is +that right? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were +walking back across the street to the bus, he said, "Well, I think he +went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner." + +Mr. BALL. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says: + +"The State of Texas, County of Dallas + +"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, +State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters, +2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit +Company. + +"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today, +November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No. +1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston. +I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew +the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her +if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me +the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never +did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I +don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man +I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my +bus with my punch mark." + +Is that about what McWatters told you? + +Mr. DHORITY. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit +from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with +him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on +Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No. +004459? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what did he tell you about that? + +Mr. DHORITY. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and +showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the +transfer. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver +to somebody? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of the night or day was that? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I +took them up to the crime lab. + +Mr. BALL. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All of them or one of them? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; he told me to bring him one back. + +Mr. BALL. You brought one back in an envelope? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right? + +Mr. DHORITY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's +hands and his face? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who made them? + +Mr. DHORITY. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well +as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did you attend another showup? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When was that? + +Mr. DHORITY. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the +McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there. + +Mr. BALL. That was the same day? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there. + +Mr. BALL. What was her first name? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were two of them--I don't recall for sure--as +well as I remember--it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis. + +Mr. BALL. There were two girls--Virginia and Jeanette? + +Mr. DHORITY. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from +Virginia, as well as I recall it. + +Mr. BALL. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff +region someplace, didn't you? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Who sent you out there? + +Mr. DHORITY. Lieutenant Wells. + +Mr. BALL. Who went with you? + +Mr. DHORITY. C. W. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. And what address did you go to? + +Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you see there? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there, +but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette +Davis. + +Mr. BALL. And, did you talk to them? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did they give you anything? + +Mr. DHORITY. Virginia gave me a .38 hull. + +Mr. BALL. Did she tell you where she got it? + +Mr. DHORITY. I believe that she said that she found it in her front +yard, as well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. DHORITY. We carried them down to the police department and took +affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup. + +Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup. + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. With them? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what time of the night? + +Mr. DHORITY. The lineup--I imagine was about 7:30. + +Mr. BALL. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup? + +Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was in the lineup? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't have that? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't hold the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in +your report? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't have a report showing any numbers. + +Mr. BALL. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a +showup at 7:55 p.m. + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you +say to these people? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the +showup, and they both were---- + +Mr. BALL. I know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and +there was other people there at the same time looking at them. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup? + +Mr. DHORITY. I think they did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody +before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them +before you brought them down? + +Mr. DHORITY. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them +and to take them down to a showup. + +Mr. BALL. Down to a showup? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them? + +Mr. DHORITY. Did I say anything to them? + +Mr. BALL. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall saying anything to them at all. + +Mr. BALL. What did they tell you? + +Mr. DHORITY. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well +as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. "Looked like the man"--looked like the man what? + +Mr. DHORITY. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I +remember. It's in the affidavit. + +Mr. BALL. Who took the affidavit? + +Mr. DHORITY. I took the one from Virginia, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. And who took the one from Jeanette? + +Mr. DHORITY. I believe Brown took that one. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to +you, that Virginia gave you? + +Mr. DHORITY. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found +an empty shell--did she tell you she found an empty shell--Jeanette +Davis? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--it seems like she told me she had found +one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Gave it to the police that day? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is +that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day? + +Mr. DHORITY. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked +as Exhibits Nos.--Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A," +and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's +deposition. + +(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits +Nos. A and B," for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told +us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts. + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is there anything more you did that day? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of +telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall--there was +so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup, +didn't you? + +Mr. DHORITY. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present? + +Mr. DHORITY. I was present--what it was--they wanted me to take the +cabdriver's--me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the +station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was +a showup--the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in +there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also +there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Whaley? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling] +S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also? + +Mr. DHORITY. I believe there was--there was two cabdrivers there and +I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us +they identified him. + +Mr. BALL. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald +was in Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That would be Sunday, November 24. + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November. + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, on--I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves +and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service? + +Mr. DHORITY. And Mr. Holmes. + +Mr. BALL. And Holmes is what? + +Mr. DHORITY. Of the Post Office Department. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office? + +Mr. DHORITY. About 9:30 in the morning. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there? + +Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain +Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there +in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in. + +Mr. BALL. What was said there in Fritz' office that day--do you +remember any of the conversations? + +Mr. DHORITY. There was a lot of conversation. + +Mr. BALL. What did they talk about--the people in there? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to +him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him--I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to +him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I +remember. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? + +Mr. DHORITY. I couldn't remember all that was said. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Was your deposition taken before? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. By Mr. Hubert? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't know--it was some FBI man, as well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think +it was kind of cool--one of his sweaters. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I +left the office. + +Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz' +office that morning? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I didn't have my handcuffs on him. + +Mr. BALL. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him--did +he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Fritz gave you instructions to do what? + +Mr. DHORITY. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and +get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in. + +Mr. BALL. Is that what you did? + +Mr. DHORITY. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and +was in the process of backing it up there--in fact--I was just about +ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and +Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door. + +Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned +around to see--backing it up--still had the car moving it along and I +saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I +thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand +come out and I heard the shot. + +Mr. BALL. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes; beside Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle? + +Mr. DHORITY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Any questions? + +Mr. ELY. Yes, I have one or two. + +I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were +present at three of them and I have taken one by one--the first one was +at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald. +Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really. + +Mr. ELY. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance +compared with Oswald? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't study it. + +Mr. ELY. And you don't remember what they were wearing either? + +Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at +that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at +the other three, as far as you can remember? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall. + +Mr. ELY. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice, +in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people +present could hear who he was choosing? + +Mr. DHORITY. No; he did not--it was very low. + +Mr. ELY. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they +couldn't hear? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ELY. What about the other two people, did they indicate their +choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly? + +Mr. DHORITY. It was also quietly. + +Mr. ELY. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two +were saying? + +Mr. DHORITY. No. + +Mr. ELY. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification, +did you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other +men in that lineup? + +Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated +their choices to you? + +Mr. DHORITY. Just standing there by them--very quietly told me. + +Mr. ELY. In more or less the same procedure as the other one? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual. + +Mr. ELY. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley--I realize you +didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not +remember anything about that? + +Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all--I sure +don't. + +Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about +something? + +Mr. DHORITY. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and +made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all +handcuffed--it was something like that--I can't recall for sure, but as +far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like +that. + +Mr. ELY. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain +Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could +you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on +Friday evening? + +Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't have any idea. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know about how long you were there? + +Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. + +Mr. ELY. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests? + +Mr. DHORITY. Yes. + +Mr. ELY. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening? + +Mr. DHORITY. No. + +Mr. ELY. None at all? + +Mr. DHORITY. No. + +Mr. ELY. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m. +on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home? + +Mr. DHORITY. That sounds about right. + +Mr. ELY. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on +Friday night? + +Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't. + +Mr. ELY. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there? + +Mr. DHORITY. No. + +Mr. ELY. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning +when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time--did he +seem calm or excited? + +Mr. DHORITY. Very calm. + +Mr. ELY. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the +same? + +Mr. DHORITY. He was very calm and fresh. + +Mr. ELY. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the +conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean, +special with regard to newspapermen being present--were the corridors +filled with newspapermen--do you recall how much of a crowd was there? + +Mr. DHORITY. When? + +Mr. ELY. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening. + +Mr. DHORITY. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had +to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There +wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, +cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way +through. + +Mr. ELY. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up. + +Mr. DHORITY. The only other thing that I had to do with that that +we didn't go into--now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the +hospital. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very, +very weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the +only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction +then---- + +Mr. BALL. He was unconscious, was he? + +Mr. DHORITY. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the +operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain +Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the +hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of +the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that +he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone +and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at +Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose +to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to +you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it +if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and +in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the +Commission. + +Mr. DHORITY. Well, I will just waive my signature. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Fine. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS + +The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John +Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SIMS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation? + +Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department? + +Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, +1948. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and educated and what you have done before you went with the +police department? + +Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to +school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called +Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and +joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I +came to work down here when I was 23. + +Mr. BALL. With the police department? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long? + +Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but +because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early +because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart +when the President arrived. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart? + +Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. In the morning? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.--Captain Fritz and Boyd and I. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot? + +Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called +Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an +accident. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day? + +Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland +Hospital, so we did. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove. + +Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry +was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the +Depository Store, down to the Book Store. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back +to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I +couldn't say for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone +in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation +from where the shot had been fired. + +Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill +Decker rode back with us. + +Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the +building. + +Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store. + +Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You heard something about it? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that. + +Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you +to go there? + +Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and +proceeded to the building, went in the building. + +Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in? + +Mr. SIMS. The front door. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I. + +Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following +was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came +from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and +Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." + +Do you think you heard that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the +shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't +have went directly to the Book Store like we did. + +Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the +information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor +of that building." + +"Which building?" + +"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston." + +Do you know whether you could have heard that? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir. +We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our +radio on. + +Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator? + +Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator. + +Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the +third floor and then the freight elevator takes over. + +Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the +building? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator. + +Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight +elevator? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers +there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, +actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go first? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant +Revill was there, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers. + +Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with +us. + +Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau. + +Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover +work. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor +and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room +and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers +on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if +we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh +floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't +been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone +hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went +back to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the +hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls +had been found. + +Mr. BALL. And you could hear them? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I +remember. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator? + +Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I +don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the +sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor? + +Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner? + +Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it +would be the southeast corner. + +Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see? + +Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or +four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the +wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got +there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I +have his name here someplace. + +Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff. + +Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I +don't know who all. + +Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls +or not? + +Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was +Detective Studebaker that works for him. + +Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker. + +Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not. + +Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken. + +Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same +position as when you had first seen them? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth +floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had +found the rifle over by the stairway. + +Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building? + +Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the +building. + +Mr. BALL. And what happened then? + +Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle? + +Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by +some paper. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that +location? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Who took that picture? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day. + +Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city +hall. + +Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of +significance there besides these hulls and the rifle? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? + +Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls. + +Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much +attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of +where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's +where it was. + +Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the +east? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know +there was some loose paper there. + +Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed +Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were +found. + +Mr. BALL. To stay there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by +the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the +wrapper to the hulls. + +Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between +the boxes and the window. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a +couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the +window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window +about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the +window--what position they were on the window ledge? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding +area there. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I +think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a +minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we +went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson +and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there, +I believe. + +Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the +rifle was found? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were +located on the floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time. + +Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up. + +Mr. BALL. There were three hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in? + +Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope. + +Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or +not. + +Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up? + +Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there +and he held the envelope open. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, +I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there +for fingerprints. + +Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition +out of the rifle. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have +to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently +about 2 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. You and who? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent +word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff +and then we went to the city hall. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out +in the corridor there. + +Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas +School Depository Building? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street. + +Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are +located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's +see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks. + +Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is. + +Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that +time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I. + +Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's? + +Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I. + +Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full +of people and I think---- + +Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people? + +Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people. + +Mr. BALL. What people? + +Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there, +all I know is that there was a lot of people. + +Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that +time? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't +remember. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a +lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was +up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," +and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that +had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room. + +Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker? + +Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has +been in the office there for several years. + +Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the +Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer +Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd +and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. You and Boyd? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation +room. + +Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. +Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and +Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory +as to what was said in that interrogation? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions. + +Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there +at that time. + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his +name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked. + +Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not +complete, just tell us as much as you can remember? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name +and where he worked and things of that nature. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. SIMS. He said, "No." + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure +what questions he did ask him. + +Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on +that evening. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were +there then? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself +then. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not. + +Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and +didn't he ask to be more comfortable? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be +more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or +something of that sort? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he +could put his hands in front of him. + +Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he +wasn't handcuffed? + +Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that +commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22. + +Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed +in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI +took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we +took him down to the first showup at 4:05. + +Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from +about 2:20 until 4 o'clock? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the +interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept. + +Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in +Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until +showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time +or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right +next door. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's +just a hall separating them. + +Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You and Boyd? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, +did you ask him any questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him +about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him +being in the service and things of that nature. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at +4:05? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in +Russia? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office +and and before the first showup? + +Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room? + +Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and +I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of +the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in +Russia and some things over here and about his family and things. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the +President, what do you mean? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it. + +Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, +what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk +about it. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He did? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any +knowledge of Officer Tippit's death? + +Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any +knowledge of the shooting of the President at all? + +Mr. SIMS. None at all. + +Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did +you say? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me. + +Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in. + +Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say +he lived in Moscow, I believe it was. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything +over there except the weather. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion +about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him +about it. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't +talk about her much. + +Mr. BALL. Or his children? + +Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a +brother or not. + +Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room +at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that +first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room +and also went to Irving, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that +afternoon, around 3:30. + +Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out +he had a room at 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, +Tex.? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time? + +Mr. SIMS. At 4:05. + +Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police +officers. + +Mr. BALL. What two police officers? + +Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry. + +Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him +down? + +Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Third floor. + +Mr. BALL. On the third floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you take him? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you +go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the +elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement +of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover +room next to the stage, the showup stage. + +Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And would you describe it? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the +officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the +squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2 +or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a +cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom. + +Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the---- + +Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have. + +Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of seats? + +Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something +like this here. + +Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark. + +Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did. + +Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the +showup so we went with them. + +Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald +and this jailer. + +Mr. BALL. How were they dressed? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know +how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know. + +Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were their names? + +Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will. + +Mr. SIMS. All right. + +Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the +Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 +was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don +Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk. + +Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him. + +Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there. + +Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these +fellows look like? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and +about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue +eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has +blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion. + +Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is +26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, +I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the +audience? + +Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience +part of the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few +questions. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the +first showup? + +Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in +our office conducted the first showup. + +Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask? + +Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age +and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just +a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words. + +Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions? + +Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup. + +Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and +what he said? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted +natural. + +Mr. BALL. Answered the questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he protest any? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a +T-shirt on? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the +next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something +about a T-shirt or something. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in. + +Mr. BALL. He answered the questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the +showup? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the +witnesses out there? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this +showup? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there. + +Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20. + +Mr. BALL. At 4:20? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald +some more. + +Mr. BALL. What were their names? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald +took place? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, +so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain +Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the +time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office +beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were +handcuffed or not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the +interrogation. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all? + +Mr. SIMS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you +heard there? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he +told Captain Fritz or the agents either. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when +Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or +whoever was in the office with him would talk to him. + +Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in +Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him +questions at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know those men? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their +names--I don't remember who it was. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup? + +Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city +hall. + +Mr. BALL. And you took him where? + +Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup? + +Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the +first one. + +Mr. BALL. Mention their names again. + +Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, +and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police +department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk. + +Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or +things like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he? + +Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he +had a white T-shirt on underneath that. + +Mr. BALL. Underneath that? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that. + +Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the +officers were, as far as their clothes. + +Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they +have coats on--did anyone have a coat on? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't +have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I +don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I +conducted the second showup. + +Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one, +two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there +and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where +they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience +side of the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers +assigned to these people? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned +to the second showup. + +Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, +R. L. Clark, and Don Ables. + +Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four. + +Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup. + +Mr. BALL. The same numbers? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The same men? + +Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers. + +Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at +6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint +was signed by Fritz that evening? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did this take place? + +Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. And who was present? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and +Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else +was there--I don't know who else was present. + +Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave +Johnston? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder +complaint? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked +to him and Captain Fritz talked to him. + +Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed +against him? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. For what murder? + +Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that? + +Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to +your records? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. +Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were. + +Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup? + +Mr. SIMS. At 7:40. + +Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] +B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. + +Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number. + +Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1? + +Mr. SIMS. No. 1---- + +Mr. BALL. And who else? + +Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Who was three? + +Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel. + +Mr. BALL. Who was he? + +Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know his address? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary. + +Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive. + +Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4? + +Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables. + +Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed. + +Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not. + +Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Together? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who +was out in front. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side? + +Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and +ask the questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how +differently he was dressed. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have on? + +Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far +as I know. + +Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described +before? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on. + +Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on? + +Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that +were in the audience side? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out +there--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the +witnesses at either of the three showups? + +Mr. SIMS. Never did---- + +Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. About what time was this? + +Mr. SIMS. 7:55. + +Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald +for about another half hour. + +Mr. BALL. And were you present? + +Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you? + +Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I +don't know if he was in there all the time or not. + +Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this +period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, +didn't you? + +Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that was what time? + +Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record +here and see [checking his record referred to]. + +Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one. + +Mr. BALL. After the first showup? + +Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup. + +Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him? + +Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room. + +Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in +the room outside, the showup room, you searched him? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I. + +Mr. BALL. What did you find? + +Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket. + +Mr. BALL. And what else? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of +.38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket. + +Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket. + +Mr. BALL. Left front? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer? + +Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket. + +Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it. + +Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to). + +Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' +examination. + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it +on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket +he had that in. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer? + +Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and +placed it in an envelope for identification. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain +Fritz' desk. + +Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who? + +Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart. + +Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did +you do with those? + +Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope. + +Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't +think I talked with him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date? + +Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his +punch-card. + +Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the +transfer? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on +the transfer? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but +I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks +about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, +identify his transfer. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the +busdriver? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his +hands. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet? + +Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember? + +Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it. + +Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material? + +Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. +identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the +top. + +Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. +Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened +after the interrogation by Mr. Clements? + +Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the +crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. What did they do? + +Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also. + +Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't +know for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came +in, he's in charge of the crime lab. + +Mr. BALL. And what did he do? + +Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name? + +Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of what? + +Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes +made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face." + +Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"? + +Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think. + +Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant. + +Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face? + +Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face. + +Mr. BALL. Of whose face? + +Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made? + +Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was. + +Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made? + +Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted +a good long while--I don't know how long. + +Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55. + +Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I +guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do +that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations +then for the paraffin tests. + +Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later +than 10 o'clock that day? + +Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office +there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his +face. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets +on Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then? + +Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he +was there in the office? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not. + +Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' +office? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly +afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, +came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front +of the stage at the showup room. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you do that? + +Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to. + +Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that? + +Mr. SIMS. Is it usual? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual. + +Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do it for? + +Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. For the press? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they +call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room +is--the assembly room. + +Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he? + +Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage. + +Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what happened? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen. + +Mr. BALL. And what did they do? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with +him. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he answer? + +Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And this was about what time? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 +minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have +been about, I guess, about 12:15. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him +down there--what were his exact instructions? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me. + +Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there? + +Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police +assembly room. + +Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz? + +Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was. + +Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' +office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the +showup room? + +Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * +shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' +office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the +showup room." + +Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us. + +Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did. + +Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you? + +Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us +instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to +do so, for us to take him to jail immediately." + +Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, +wasn't it? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he tell them? + +Mr. SIMS. He told them "no." + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of +them hollering at him--that's all I remember. + +Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what? + +Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him. + +Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on +November the 23d. + +Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there. + +Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m. + +Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee +Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for +questioning. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the +U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service. + +Mr. BALL. And who else? + +Mr. SIMS. And that was all. + +Mr. BALL. And yourself? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the +office during the interrogation." + +Mr. BALL. You weren't in there? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what. + +Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take? + +Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and +Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's +room at 1026 North Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there? + +Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not. + +Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that. + +Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see? + +Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something +of that nature. I don't remember what it was. + +Mr. BALL. A paper clip? + +Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or +something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I +know, the room was clean. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and +left at 12:30. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SIMS. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald +case? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements? + +Mr. SIMS. No. + +Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. Who are "we"? + +Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. From the jail. + +Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at +7:15 to the jail. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that +interrogation? + +Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day. + +Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right? + +Mr. SIMS. Over the television. + +Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might +go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any? + +Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with +reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I +believe we ought to do that. + +You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, +Mr. Sims? + +Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing +of Officer Tippit. + +Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th. + +Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days? + +Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of +you? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. You worked it out together? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears +as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this +memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the +things occurred? + +Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory. + +Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory? + +Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory. + +Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was +prepared? + +Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine. + +Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine. + +Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific +figure--is this because you had some record of these times? + +Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen. + +Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum? + +Mr. SIMS. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the +two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your +statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is +that right? + +Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions? + +Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions. + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be +over here. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them. + +Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of +their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel +file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight. + +Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city +prisoners? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those. + +Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, +5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. + +Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", +169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this +was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description. + +Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. + +Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the +two? + +Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our +identification jacket--these are their descriptions. + +Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their +description? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the +School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred +just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for +fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain +Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain +Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, +Tex." + +Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up +and in what context the name was given? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at +the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he +gave it to him? + +Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was +missing. + +Mr. STERN. I see. + +Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their +jobs after the assassination. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing? + +Mr. SIMS. No; I don't. + +Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? +Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository? + +Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes. + +Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 +on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either +you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, +and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to +your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you? + +Mr. SIMS. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall that? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at +that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else. + +Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him. + +Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time +of his arrest? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on. + +Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the +ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol +shells--cartridges--did you comment on that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all. + +Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember +what I asked or what he said. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday +and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his +demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was +conducting himself? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I +have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous. + +Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what +questions he didn't? + +Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the +questions. + +Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the +course of the day? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked +him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things +of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them. + +Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment? + +Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it +was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a +lawyer, and things of that nature. + +Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment? + +Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, +and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he +said he deserved being hit in the eye. + +Mr. STERN. Why was that? + +Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's +what he told us. + +Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that? + +Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up +in New York. + +Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to +me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me. + +Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at +any time he mentioned getting a lawyer? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the +interrogations? Or showups? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 +that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about +him? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick. + +Mr. STERN. Calm? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and +other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the +interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday. + +Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was +crowded. + +Mr. STERN. With officials? + +Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and +city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials. + +Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in +Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of +the interrogations. + +Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked +all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the +course of the same interrogation? + +Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there +wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to +him and more or less ask him questions. + +Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the +corridor, as to people who were not officials? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded. + +Mr. STERN. Because of the---- + +Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen. + +Mr. STERN. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when +they were installed? + +Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed. + +Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of +this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when +you brought him to and from? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when +we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, +and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain +Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall. + +Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would +people try to ask him questions? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would. + +Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall--ever? + +Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't. + +Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him +in any way, or did he also take this calmly? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different. + +Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being +the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete +self-control? + +Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he +still was calm and alert and everything. + +Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night +when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty +snappy. He made some quick answers--I don't know what all it +involved--he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I +believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit. + +Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in +control? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of +expressing his feelings? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that +time--at that press interview. + +Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you. + +That's all I have, Mr. Ball. + +I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two. + +Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You +took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday +morning. + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth +floor--about what time? + +Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20. + +Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the +fourth floor at 12:23. + +Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe--I'm not positive about this, but I believe +that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did. + +Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked +out of the jail again after 12:23? + +Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day. + +Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 +again--a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know +anything about that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out +later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at +12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on +the 23d. + +Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for +illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your +deposition? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine. + +Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department +of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and +Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th. + +Mr. BALL. That was the 24th? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can +read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you +can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as +you have here testified as she has taken it down. + +Do you have any preference on that? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot. + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED + +The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SIMS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony +in front of or before Joseph A. Ball? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case +hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of +the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you +remember that he asked about those? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just +how you came to see those hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the +seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the +hulls had been found. + +So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went +to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were +laying there by the window on the floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab +to take pictures of the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can +remember? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive +about that. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were +taken? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time. + +Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the +pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I +believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day +dusted them for fingerprints. + +Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically +remember what you did with those hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your +recollection as to what happened to the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my +partner, and refreshed my memory. + +Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened? + +Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day +finished with them and to take possession of them. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. SIMS. I did that. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them? + +Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them? + +Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in +his office. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. +Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to +the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city +hall that afternoon? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or +not he had any record? + +Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I +was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few +minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on +Oswald? + +Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to +Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was there? + +Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am +not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain +Fritz' office? + +Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or +either gave it to him. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one? + +Mr. SIMS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did +with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that? + +Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to +where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we +was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be +sure and get the hulls. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back +later to where the hulls were. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being +dusted for fingerprints? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them? + +Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can +remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to +preserve the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through +with the pictures? + +Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, +or Boyd tell you? + +Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too +sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz +and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the +rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did +that. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were +the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember? + +Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete +understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, +you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on +Monday? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember? + +Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the +hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I +talked to him. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say? + +Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and +bring them to the office." + +And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had +said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told +me this. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back +on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain +Fritz told you on this past Monday? + +Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or +Monday? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had +told you to get the hulls and bring them down? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on +April 6 or 7? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact +as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually +putting these shells in an envelope? + +Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently +remember putting that envelope in your pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your +pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I +remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or +pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was? + +Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the +desk here? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't +remember what size. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope? + +Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has +envelopes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope +in your pocket? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but +he was there when I took possession of the hulls. + +Mr. BELIN. He was? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab +officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the +envelope in which they were? + +Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical +possession? + +Mr. SIMS. In this envelope. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them +there on the desk in front of him. + +Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not. + +Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would +you have used? + +Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS. + +Mr. BELIN. RMS? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope +that I put them in. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the +hull? By that, do you understand what I mean? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the +hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull. + +Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the +hull? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end. + +Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end. + +Mr. BELIN. The spent end? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be +sure and get the hulls. + +Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the +door? + +Mr. SIMS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your +right hand and you started testifying, is that correct? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to +sign the other deposition? + +Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead. + +Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in? + +Mr. SIMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL + +The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. STOVALL. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. STOVALL. Richard S. Stovall. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your address, please? + +Mr. STOVALL. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. STOVALL. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. STOVALL. Approximately 10 years--it will be 10 years this May. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to +tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has +done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know +something about you. + +Can you tell me that, please? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a +frame house over here on West Page--329 West Page. I went to grade +school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner +Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school +at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I +went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I +quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came +back to summer school Tech and finished. + +After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs +I had been with for just a short period of time--I went to work at the +post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I +believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post +office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since +then. + +Mr. BALL. You are a detective, are you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You work in plain clothes? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in this particular department? + +Mr. STOVALL. I have been in this department since approximately August +15, 1962--about 18 months, I guess. + +Mr. BALL. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau? + +Mr. STOVALL. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. Do you work under Captain Fritz? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, +in view of the President's visit to Dallas? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work. + +Mr. BALL. At what time was that? + +Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that +morning and heard the deal on television. + +Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock? + +Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I +believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for +work and went on in. + +Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there. + +I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the +same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people +standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even +take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything. + +While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the +Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there +at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back +there and talked to him briefly. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you? + +Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his +identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee +Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the +time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. +Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it? + +Mr. STOVALL. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling] +H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure. + +And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that +was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the +door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address +in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving. + +That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an +address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time. + +Mr. BALL. The captain had you get another man to go with you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us. + +Mr. BALL. Is he a detective? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is. + +Mr. BALL. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The three of you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and +parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to +meet some county officers out there. + +Mr. BALL. Why were you to meet the county officers out there? + +Mr. STOVALL. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had +to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us. + +Mr. BALL. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you meet some county officers there? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we +did--after we got out there; yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you wait for them? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you wait for them? + +Mr. STOVALL. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house +address. + +Mr. BALL. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down +the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they +could see us parked in the car down the street. + +Mr. BALL. And what county officers did you meet out there? + +Mr. STOVALL. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two--one +name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name. + +Mr. BALL. How about Walthers--does Buddy Walthers sound like it? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was the third one. + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then after you met them, what did you do? + +Mr. STOVALL. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house +and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and +two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other +officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could +see some people inside the house and we could see through the front +door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine +came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are +here about this mess that's on television." + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell her about that? + +Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the +house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but +if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be +necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house +and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I +searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There +are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you +have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom +there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified +that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division +of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search +the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you? + +Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time +I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which +would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking +to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina +suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they +were out of my sight then. + +Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look +in the garage? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that +suggestion--what her reasons for it were? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do? + +Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into +the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the +two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't +tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in +what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the +record.) + +Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record. + +Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this +blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other +end was open. + +Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material? + +Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. A white what? + +Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that +you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large +packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told +me---- + +Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? + +Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had +pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and +Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle. + +Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from +Marina's bedroom? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took +from the house. + +Mr. BALL. Give me that list first. + +Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.] + +Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got +back into the squad car? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to +work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car +and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there. + +Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went +over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, +we went over it--this list here. + +Mr. BALL. This list here? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken. + +Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 +West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.? + +Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4--somewhere in there. + +Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was +made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police +department? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it +consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition. + +(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for +identification.) + +Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l +[spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too. + +Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of +refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you +have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those? + +Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.] + +Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you +can make an explanation for the record. + +Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine. + +Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and +A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken +from Marina's room? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, +haven't you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. STOVALL. On this list here--where it has 1963 Kodachrome +transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown +pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, +came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the +other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but +I'm not sure which came from which place. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list +that have not been checked, were found? + +Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other +items--those other articles? + +Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where +these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and +when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the +stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too. + +Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are +not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, +from your memory, just where you found those articles. + +Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth +Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single--I'm not sure where they +came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have +listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector. + +Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in +Marina's bedroom. + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them. + +Mr. BALL. All right, very well. + +Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know +it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got +listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth +pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 +inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." +Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this. + +These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone +projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, +"Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph +records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. + +I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm +not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One +bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out +of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm +not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I +explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One +envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which +bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book." + +We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall +taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the +particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's +the last one I don't have checked. + +Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's +bedroom? + +Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the +hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and +the kitchen and the den. + +Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day. + +Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the +stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there? + +Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours, if that +long. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to +you about expecting you, or something of that sort? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked +on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified +ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about +this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" +at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the +President's murder. + +Mr. BALL. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got +there. + +Mr. BALL. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought +into the office? + +Mr. STOVALL. They had brought him into the office after I was there. + +Mr. BALL. Later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes +when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he +said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought +he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or +television? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard +about it--I don't recall him saying that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions at that time? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time. +However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation +was. + +Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into +our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, +and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was +talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and +talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work +that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a +package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could +have been a rifle--is what she said. She said it was either in a brown +paper box or wrapped in brown paper. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe +it was 6 when we got back to the office. + +Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's +deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two +children. + +Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery +Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them after that? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day--I didn't. We took them from there +into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office +up there. + +Mr. BALL. Into which bureau? + +Mr. STOVALL. Into the Forgery Bureau--we took them from the Homicide +Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we +could leave them. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do the rest of that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. After that we went--we called on the phone--Rose +did--trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's +brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald +had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally +located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where +Wesley Frazier was--he called the Irving Police Department and talked +to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was +and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he +couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15 +or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police +Department out there. + +Mr. BALL. You went out there and talked to him? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you also searched their home, didn't you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. + +Mr. BALL. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into +Dallas and took statements from them? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I +don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started +back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church +with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about +halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the +station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain +from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley +Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so +we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that +time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the +phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30. + +Mr. BALL. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier, +wasn't it? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think, +when he finished running it. + +Mr. BALL. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. STOVALL. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left +Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I +remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out +to Irving and left them. + +Mr. BALL. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the +polygraph examination of Frazier, were you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And during this examination, did you have before you the +affidavit which Frazier had made? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't at that time? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning? + +Mr. STOVALL. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator. + +I might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way +mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is +investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being +given, and you can hear the questions and the answers. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go home, then, after that? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home. + +Mr. BALL. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home, +didn't you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. + +Mr. BALL. About what time? + +Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. + +Mr. BALL. From what judge? + +Mr. STOVALL. From J. B. Brown, Jr. + +Mr. BALL. Who went out on the search party? + +Mr. STOVALL. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the +Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went +with us. + +Mr. BALL. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Homicide Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time? + +Mr. STOVALL. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one +there at the time. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you? + +Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a +further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the +time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and +that we could search the house anytime we wanted to. + +Mr. BALL. And did you search the house? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the +garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a +rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search +at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he +didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we +searched the garage and concentrated our search there. + +Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the +only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. +I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure--it's possible that +he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them +came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee +Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them +and they left. + +Mr. BALL. Do you mean they left you in the garage? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their +house. + +Mr. BALL. You have made a report of what you did that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report? + +Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't +read this one. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of +your search on the 23d of November 1963? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long? + +Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1-1/2 or 2 +hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough +search of the garage. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time? + +Mr. STOVALL. To the garage? + +Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to +make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we +didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the +whole house. + +Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your +department as to what to look for? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with +you on that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. + +Mr. BALL. Is this the list? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is. + +Mr. BALL. And where was that made? + +Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B." + +(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to +be Oswald in the photograph? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, +"Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots +and the negatives to me. + +Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the +photograph? + +Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house +holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on +his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots. + +Mr. BALL. And the negatives? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B? + +Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous +photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we +took when we were there. + +Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw? + +Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box +about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them? + +Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there +and letters and papers and photographs. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags. + +Mr. BALL. What color? + +Mr. STOVALL. One of them was--I think both of them were a kind of an +Army color--olive drab, whatever you call it. + +Mr. BALL. And suitcases? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a +brown one. + +Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material? + +Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material. + +Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, +is there any other color? + +Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember--one of the brown ones +was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind +of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It +was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart. + +Mr. BALL. And were there three? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one? + +Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also. + +Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard? + +Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or +cardboard. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's +Department Store, Klein's in Chicago? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs. + +Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have +marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of +November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search +of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D. + +(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C +and D," for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you +find there? + +Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? + +Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you +have already told us? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both +gone from the house when we left there. + +Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You took them down to where? + +Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office. + +Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you? + +Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the +investigation. I might add, there was--well, you have that on the +list--some property. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. STOVALL. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that +had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his +own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some +negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a +selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where +the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of +the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there +were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there +from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that +he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of +"A. Hidell" typed in on it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald? + +Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much +for coming over here. + +Mr. STOVALL. Okay, thank you. + +Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by. + +Mr. STOVALL. I hope it was of some help to you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS + +The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April +3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. POTTS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. POTTS. Walter Eugene Potts. + +Mr. BALL. What business or occupation are you in? + +Mr. POTTS. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, +Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas? + +Mr. POTTS. Since October 21, 1947. + +Mr. BALL. And how long have you been with the homicide department? + +Mr. POTTS. June 6, 1956. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where +you were educated and what you have done since then? + +Mr. POTTS. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to +Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools +in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas--it's Crozier Tech now, but it +was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, +and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love +Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in +Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down +there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I +worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I +went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I +was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also +the 505th there. + +I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before +I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they +still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of +the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's +raised right here. + +Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that was my day off. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim +Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to +1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and +Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you +heard about the President getting shot?" + +You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I +turned on my car radio and there it was. + +We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to +Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all +the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him +I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there +within the hour, which was around 2 or before. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there? + +Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car +over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot +and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this +officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting +killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I +understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." +That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, +I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas +School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and +he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" +And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, +and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I +heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them +say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit." + +So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the +squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and +they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As +you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight +ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go +on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he +said, "I know that man." + +He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book +Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." +So did Arce--he said, "Yes, he works down there." + +So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people +and we got them notarized. + +Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty? + +Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back +there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other +people--I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around +there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, +and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and +he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are +going out to 1026 North Beckley." + +He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished +taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain +Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's +room." + +On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with +the name Alex Hidell and Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. +Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the +homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us +and we went out there. + +Mr. BALL. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant? + +Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time. +We went to the location and talked to the people there. + +Mr. BALL. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And who else? + +Mr. POTTS. B. L. Senkel. + +Mr. BALL. And yourself? + +Mr. POTTS. And myself. + +Mr. BALL. And you went out to where? + +Mr. POTTS. 1026 North Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. What happened when you got there? + +Mr. POTTS. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.--I believe her name +was Johnson. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. A. C. Johnson? + +Mr. POTTS. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts. + +Mr. BALL. Earlene Roberts? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex +Hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who +we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and +there was a television---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you check their registration books? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--Senkel, I +think, or Cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book +and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the +living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's +the living quarters--it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of +the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man +that lives here. That's Mr. Lee--O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is +right here right off of the living room." + +Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that +Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until +4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3. + +Mr. BALL. You waited there in the home? + +Mr. POTTS. We waited there in the living quarters. + +Mr. BALL. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by +Lee? + +Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got +the warrant. + +Mr. BALL. Who brought the warrant out? + +Mr. POTTS. Judge David Johnston. + +Mr. BALL. The judge issued it, but who brought it out? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge +David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill +Alexander. + +Mr. BALL. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, the judge was there in person. + +Mr. BALL. He was? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill +Alexander--they all came in the same car. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it +was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, +and we took everything in there that we could find. + +Mr. BALL. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the +living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off +to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I +don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a +real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there +it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff +back there in. + +Mr. BALL. How was it furnished? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if +remember, it might have had a chair--I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, +Cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything +in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and +we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and +stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could +find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put +stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a +lot of stuff in it. + +Mr. BALL. What color was the bag? + +Mr. POTTS. I don't recall the color of that bag. + +Mr. BALL. Did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought +it in, too? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could +find. + +Mr. BALL. Were there curtains on the windows? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; I think so. + +Mr. BALL. Hanging on rods? + +Mr. POTTS. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the +walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked +behind the blinds and everything. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster? + +Mr. POTTS. A .38 leather holster--I have a list there of all the stuff +we brought out of there. + +Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. +Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office. + +Mr. BALL. You brought the stuff into the office? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A." + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," +for identification.) + +Mr. POTTS. You can have that if you would like. + +Mr. BALL. This will be two exhibits--A-1 and A-2. + +(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits +A-l and A-2," for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the +holster before? + +Mr. POTTS. I don't recall asking her that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the +holster before? + +Mr. POTTS. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too +familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much +about it. + +Mr. BALL. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil. + +Mr. BALL. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. POTTS. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it +and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing--and it had a diagram +of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to +me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in +Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand. + +Mr. BALL. You brought all of this property to the city hall? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as +"Exhibits A-1 and A-2"? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more? + +Mr. POTTS. Let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of +that night, up until--I don't recall what time I did leave there--it +was pretty late. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission +Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley +address that day, do you remember? + +Mr. POTTS. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of +the officers picked it up. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember where it was? + +Mr. POTTS. No; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Do--you don't know where it was kept? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But was it brought from the room? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and +here is Mr. Moore's. + +Mr. BALL. What does that initial mean? + +Mr. POTTS. That's my initial, "W. E. P." + +Mr. BALL. And there is "11-22-63"--what does that mean? + +Mr. POTTS. That means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of +there. At the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought +out in court that would be my initials right there--I recovered this. + +Mr. BALL. Did you initial it right there in the room? + +Mr. POTTS. We initialed it after we brought it to the station. + +Mr. BALL. These are the initials of the men who were there with you? + +Mr. POTTS. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner--"F. M. +T."--that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in +court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the +investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the +President? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning +and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone +conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. We were +swamped--I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru--all over was +just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept +most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald? + +Mr. POTTS. I believe I did--was that the 23d--at 2:15 that afternoon on +the 23d, I was in on one. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. POTTS. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail +elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking +there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought +that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Who is M. G. Hall? + +Mr. POTTS. He is a detective in our bureau. + +Mr. BALL. And who is Charlie Brown? + +Mr. POTTS. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. +Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the +two that showed up then, but they might not have been. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the +men who were to be in the showup? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and +walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage +while the showup was conducted. + +Mr. BALL. How was it conducted? Describe it. + +Mr. POTTS. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup +stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black +nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the +person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They +brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went +in first--no, that's wrong--Lujan went on first, because he would be +No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up +there. + +Mr. BALL. What is his full name? + +Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2. + +Mr. BALL. What is Knapp's full name? + +Mr. POTTS. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1. + +Mr. BALL. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, Detective Leavelle--now, I don't know who the witness +was that they were showing them to--the showup to. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Leavelle? + +Mr. POTTS. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a +black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one +step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall +exactly what he asked them--It was just to get them to talk and +identify themselves. We conduct them different--sometimes we ask them +their names and their address and their occupation. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask the questions? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask the questions? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; he was up there. + +Mr. BALL. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; to the men on the stage. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear them? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; I heard them answer. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald speak up or not? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on +a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was +complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and +I've got a T-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup. +He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of +commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of commotion was he making? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in +a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a +T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and +after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the +stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the +elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with +the show. + +Mr. BALL. That's all you had to do with it? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What were the appearances of the four men who came out? + +Mr. POTTS. They were similar in size--I didn't pick them--I don't know +who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the +ages are a little different here. + +Mr. BALL. What ages were they, do you know? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, Horne was 17--he was born November 6, 1945, I believe +that's right. + +Mr. BALL. John Thurman Horne? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born +October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born +February 15, 1937. + +Mr. BALL. And do you have the addresses of these three men? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; I do--now, I got the addresses off of--out of our +records bureau--off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they +gave a fictitious address or not. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. POTTS. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor. + +Mr. BALL. 2942 Ann Arbor? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And that's Dallas? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. And what was he charged with--why was he in jail? + +Mr. POTTS. Traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets. + +Mr. BALL. Traffic tickets? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date. + +Mr. BALL. He did? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes--red lights and so on. + +Mr. BALL. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for? + +Mr. POTTS. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 +Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. And he was in for investigation? + +Mr. POTTS. Investigation of burglary and theft. + +Mr. BALL. Was he convicted? + +Mr. POTTS. Well, I don't know anything about that. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know where he is now? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I have never seen those men since. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he was convicted or not? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. What about Lujan? + +Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan--[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way +you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address +of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation +of violation of State narcotic laws. + +Mr. BALL. And was he convicted, or do you know? + +Mr. POTTS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted +of a felony? + +Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. You know nothing about that? + +Mr. POTTS. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first +time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation? + +Mr. POTTS. That Presidential assassination--I think that's about all I +done on that. + +Mr. BALL. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer--on the 25th of +November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; I know that. + +Mr. POTTS. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, +"They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've +seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We +need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car +and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a +woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "Oswald has +just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went +back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came +on back on duty that day. + +Mr. BALL. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer---- + +Mr. POTTS. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. +He and Mr. Senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they +were in the lead car. + +Mr. BALL. Senkel was? + +Mr. POTTS. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in +the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about +this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, +he said, "Let's go out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is +supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by +and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took +a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify +him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on +the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo +Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he +works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that +day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch +the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't +say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it +looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before +he heard the shots fired. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are +testifying about? + +Mr. POTTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own +handwritten notes? + +Mr. POTTS. That's right--I have. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's +duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, +being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 +of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in +the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15--as the next exhibit. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and +C," respectively, for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much. + +Mr. POTTS. You are certainly welcome. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and +sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the +Commission. You can tell me what you want to do. + +Mr. POTTS. Oh, I will sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you +to sign. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK + +The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. John P. Adamcik. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. In Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I am 26. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Dallas? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to high school? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. LaGrange, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. LaGrange High School? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and +came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I was an assembler. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a +hardship discharge. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean family? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was +injured. That was the reason I got the discharge. + +And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I +think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got +on the police department. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have been in the police department ever since? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of +absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army +Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 +months. + +Mr. BELIN. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you married? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. One-month-old baby. + +Mr. BELIN. A month old baby. Boy or girl? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Boy. + +Mr. BELIN. You must be pretty proud? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is his name? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Mark Allen. + +Mr. BELIN. Your wife taking good care of that baby? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were +you on duty on that date? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this. + +Mr. BELIN. Not at the time of the assassination? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. You were off duty? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I was at home, off duty. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get on duty that day? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard +of the assassination--I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, +and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I +immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so. + +Mr. BELIN. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I +wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting +officers and we were asked--Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were +asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in +Irving, to the Paine residence. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald give them that address? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the +address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the address? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how +that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to +this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite +name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he +had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we +were told. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was this? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report? + +Mr. BELIN. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be +approximately 2:30. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out +there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; we did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you didn't? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We +didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly +going over to see who was there. + +We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we +could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we +didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with +these people or with Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you go with? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met +by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because +being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go +along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took +us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3 +o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get +there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of +the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and +one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the +front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county +officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or +4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and +opened it up and asked us to come in. + +Mr. BELIN. Who asked you to come in? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus--because Mrs. Paine was +in the house at the time standing next to them. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we started looking around the house. I think +Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They +asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out +who they were--and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I +just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around. + +We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked +around. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see +her room? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us +where the room was and showed us several things in the room. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. She didn't object at all. They were really very +cooperative. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked +her who she was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes; I heard it asked. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the answer given, if you remember? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did they take you out to the garage? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Not me. They took two of--some of the officers. I think it +was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through +Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs. +Paine drew their attention to the garage. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about a rifle? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the +garage at all. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we +called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked +them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the +people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we +told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course +our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs. +Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs. +Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some +arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember +correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's +husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard +the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, +and they were surprised. + +Mr. BELIN. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came +over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President +was shot? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present. + +Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President +was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he +found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody +would be over there questioning them. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, +and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they +found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had +two strings, and just one of the strings were cut. + +Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea. + +Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, +approximately? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. +Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real +stiff. Just normal. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile +and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of +the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children +there. I left and went with her. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to +the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She +(Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, +so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and +whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald +rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying +with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. + +She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was +drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, +across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, +carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I +know we did, but I didn't take it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. +That is all I remember her saying. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was +unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the +weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a +Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them +in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a +neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were +put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us, +and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer, +and we proceeded to go to the city police station. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office +and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery +bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited +a pretty good while. + +By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying +to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for +the wait. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to +talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting +his sick daddy. + +So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and +couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the +clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, +and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was +there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had +him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from +him or question him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. However, I didn't go back over there and get him. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine, +Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same +evening. + +Mr. BELIN. What did she say? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an +affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in +my presence. + +I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the +rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her +saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she +didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in +the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the +blanket was there? + +Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, +apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to +that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when +she said the last time was she saw it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I +questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever +said. + +I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe +she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the +blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That +would be in the affidavit, though. + +Mr. BELIN. Now anything else happen there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit +from Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably +took one from Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, the wife. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I +believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had +been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought +her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got +through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald, +Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and +Michael Paine. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind +of had the feeling--I don't know how to explain it--just like this, +well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite +understand it, or something. She didn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Lee Oswald's brother? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He +seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything at all? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Not to me, not in my presence. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home, +and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant +McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used +his car, and he went along with me to take these people home. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything +more on the way home about the incident or not? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that +Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home, +and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to +go back to Russia. I remember her saying that. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian +to interpret a little bit. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time +I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back +there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us +originally. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the mother? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; the mother, she went back with us. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10 +o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started +taking them to Irving, and got back about 10. + +We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the office? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I +guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the +captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you go in the interrogation room? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished +talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or +something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go +on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald. + +I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you the only two in there at that time? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either +fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left. +It was just a short period of time. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that took place there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask +him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. That he did or did not? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia +and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long +he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Well---- + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it +okay, and that is just about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about the assassination at all? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the +assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We did. + +Mr. BELIN. Like what kind of questions? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Like where were you at the time this assassination +occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he just keep quiet? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. He just sat there and stared straight ahead. + +Mr. BELIN. Didn't talk at all? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Not in my presence. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe that I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else there that did? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear anybody. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in +the morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Ever see Oswald again? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview, +I believe. I didn't go down there. + +Mr. BELIN. What interview? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I think they had--I don't know whether it was an interview +or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room. + +Mr. BELIN. When would that have been? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. It would have been about midnight. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other +men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning +about 10 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, +I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and +Detective Moore--at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and +Stovall--asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back +to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant at this time? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe +B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up +the search warrant. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the house? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. +One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they +were there. + +I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery +shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted +to. + +Mr. BELIN. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; some of the other officers did. + +Mr. BELIN. What did they take? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. +It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. +I know they took some items. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; there weren't too many items the first day. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the second day? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went +mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I +think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went +through the house and garage. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you take with you? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we picked up--I got a list of it, also, which we +turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and +pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the +garage. + +Mr. BELIN. That was found in the garage? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Any comments about that at all? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, +and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the +assassination." + +Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery +shopping. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you show the picture to them later on? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the +scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand. + +Mr. BELIN. You weren't there when it was done? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, no other than--I didn't even begin to tell you what +all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his +stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot +of Russian, I think they were books on the Russian language, and some +vaccination certificates and stuff like that. + +A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what +it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search +at all. I know that everything we--at the time, that we felt it was +important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and +Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been +some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, +it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the +murder. + +Mr. BELIN. Was an inventory made of the items taken? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. There was. Yes; there was, definitely. + +Mr. BELIN. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for +all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't +get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there +probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a +document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's +invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No. +11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a +copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I +believe you said that--who was the senior officer out there among you, +or wasn't there any? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting +the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective +Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the +previous day, he was spokesman for the group. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. With Rose. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S. +Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball +and let him introduce it in that deposition. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was +out of the house trying to take care of the kids. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we +haven't discussed here? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the +search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we +didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and +myself went back to Irving--should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up +Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an +affidavit from him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking +the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the +affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, +or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he know that it contained a rifle? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times +previous to the assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's +residence that day of the assassination? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and +I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President +got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald +worked, and knowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name +came into his mind immediately. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say it came into his mind? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. He said, knowing about his background and all--I remember +just about what he said--that he knew that he would be asked to be +considered a suspect, and--or that we would consider him a suspect, +something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him +considered to be a suspect? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he +said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or +something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because +for some other reason. + +Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It +is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his +words. I can look at it. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael +Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Right; he did say that. + +Mr. BELIN. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a +blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. + +Mr. BELIN. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the +powersaw." + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked +up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting +equipment. Is that what he said? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President +was shot while he was at work, is that correct? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book +Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and +immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the +President? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said. + +Mr. BELIN. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what +he says in the affidavit? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President. +Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the +President? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't +call the FBI. He said he figured that--he did mention that the FBI knew +about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would +consider him a suspect without him having to call them. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, sir? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took +this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end +of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down +there, luckily. + +Mr. BELIN. Luckily you were off? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming +down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go +directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign +it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, +whatever you want to do. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. About how long would it be before it is ready? + +Mr. BELIN. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on +to us? + +Mr. ADAMCIK. I would kind of like to look at it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can +take a look at it. + +Mr. ADAMCIK. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HENRY M. MOORE + +The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear +you here. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MOORE. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter. + +Mr. MOORE. Henry M. Moore. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore? + +Mr. MOORE. Police officer, city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Texas? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. MOORE. I am 39. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. MOORE. Five children. + +Mr. BELIN. Your wife has her hands full with them? + +Mr. MOORE. Sure does. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school here in Dallas? + +Mr. MOORE. No; Ennis, Ennis High School. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? + +Mr. MOORE. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you a graduate from high school? + +Mr. MOORE. No, I didn't graduate. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through high school? + +Mr. MOORE. Eighth. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. Went in the Service. + +Mr. BELIN. Into the Armed Services? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Army or Navy? + +Mr. MOORE. Paratroopers; Army. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Paratroopers? + +Mr. MOORE. Three years. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get out? + +Mr. MOORE. January 11, 1946. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that day? + +Mr. MOORE. Very well. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? + +Mr. MOORE. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I +came to Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went +into the Service? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You went direct from school to the Service? + +Mr. MOORE. Shortly afterward. + +Mr. BELIN. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. Came to Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. What year was that? + +Mr. MOORE. January 31, 1949. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your position there right now? + +Mr. MOORE. Detective. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When were you to report to work that day? + +Mr. MOORE. Four; 4:00 p.m. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you report for work that day? + +Mr. MOORE. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town. + +Mr. BELIN. How shortly after? + +Mr. MOORE. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2. + +Mr. BELIN. You reported down at the main police station? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. MOORE. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't +know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's +room. + +Mr. BELIN. At 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe that is right. + +Mr. BELIN. About when was that? + +Mr. MOORE. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes +may show a little closer time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who got it? + +Mr. MOORE. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he go with you there, too? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Who else went? + +Mr. MOORE. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to that address, and did the landlady--let me ask +you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already +inside. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived +there? + +Mr. MOORE. I believe they had; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. MOORE. We searched his room. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. Brought everything in the room to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. You made a list of what you found there? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything in particular that you found there? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks +located on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. MOORE. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. MOORE. A holster. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of gun? + +Mr. MOORE. .38 pistol, I believe it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster? + +Mr. MOORE. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun +from him earlier in the day. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else there that you can establish? + +Mr. MOORE. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects? + +Mr. BELIN. Some letters? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers. + +Mr. BELIN. Pamphlets? + +Mr. MOORE. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure, +though. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a +photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way, +how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. MOORE. I only went one time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know? + +Mr. MOORE. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We +brought everything that was in the room. + +Mr. BELIN. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked +on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or +receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of +the inventory here? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe it is. + +Mr. BELIN. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might +state for the record that this appears to be--what was the last number +I gave there--it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record +that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known +in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280-286, +inclusive. + +I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated +November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the +search. Do you have any explanation for that? + +Mr. MOORE. No; I wouldn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not? + +Mr. MOORE. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles +a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or +not that was there? + +Mr. MOORE. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically +there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated +in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your +knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked +"Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex., +dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do +you have any independent recollection of that being there? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except +you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from +there? + +Mr. MOORE. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. I also note that one of the items appears to be a World +Health Organization vaccination card, bearing the name of Lee Oswald, +with the name of the vaccinator as A. J. Hidell, post office box 30016, +New Orleans, La., with the date stamped June 8, 1963. + +Do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards? + +Mr. MOORE. Not specifically no. + +Mr. BELIN. And it says that there is a passport there. Do you remember +that at all? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You remember specifically the passport? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is an application for a Texas driver's license, +which appears as No. 450. Do you remember that at all? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; I do, since I have read the list. I remember the +driver's license application. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you Commission Exhibit 426, and ask you to state if +you know what that is? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is that? + +Mr. MOORE. Application for Texas driver's license. + +Mr. BELIN. You picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on +that day that you searched the residence at Beckley? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; you find my initials on the back of it, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Your initials, it says, HMM, 11-12-63. Those are your +initials? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; and date. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who FMT is, or are those initials there? + +Mr. MOORE. I believe that will be F. M. Turner. + +Mr. BELIN. F. M. Turner? + +Mr. MOORE. I believe. That is the only one I could think of it would be. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. About how long did you stay out there? + +Mr. MOORE. Hour and a half, possibly. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. We drove back to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I assume then that you went through the property and +marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; it did. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with +the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can +think of offhand? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. The next day you reported for work about when? + +Mr. MOORE. As soon after the Oswald shooting in the basement, as soon +as I could get there. I live out of town. + +Mr. BELIN. Wait, that is when Oswald was shot. I am not talking about +Sunday. I am talking about Saturday. When did you search the Beckley +premises? On Friday, Saturday, or Sunday? + +Mr. MOORE. Saturday. No; we searched it on Friday. Irving on Saturday. + +Mr. BELIN. Irving on Saturday. When did you get to work on Saturday? + +Mr. MOORE. I believe I came in around 10 that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you worked in the office for a while? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did offhand? + +Mr. MOORE. Answered the phone. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later +in the day to search the residence at Irving. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving? + +Mr. MOORE. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Had a search warrant for that? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You found several items there? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Made a list of those similar to this other list? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out +there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else? + +Mr. MOORE. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. +We had an Irving officer with us. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you to go ahead? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said +they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned +before we left. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there +that stands out in your mind? + +Mr. MOORE. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Rose show it to you out there? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes, he did; at the time he found it. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you near him when he found it. + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How far away was he from you? + +Mr. MOORE. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. +Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Rose say to you when he found it? + +Mr. MOORE. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and +commented on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MOORE. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed +it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office. + +Mr. BELIN. You made another list of it? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did that day? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you bring in Michael Paine for taking an affidavit from +him, do you remember? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. Mr. Adamcik and I went out and brought--we went +back to the residence and brought him in later that day. + +Mr. BELIN. You talked to him for a while? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you took the affidavit? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then the next day was the 24th of November, Sunday. Were you +on duty Sunday morning? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get to work on Sunday? + +Mr. MOORE. Approximately 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. MOORE. I am sure I worked around the office until the time that +Rose and I went to Ruby's apartment. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant for that? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. We went to Judge Joe B. Brown's residence and got the +search warrant. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it pretty much standard procedure at the Dallas Police +Department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's +premises? + +Mr. MOORE. More or less. + +Mr. BELIN. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure +when you come to the door? Just what do you do? + +Mr. MOORE. If we do not have a search warrant? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. MOORE. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If +we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or +things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not +have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house +anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then +in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way +that bears on this investigation? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister? + +Mr. MOORE. Either way. + +Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read +this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or +you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us +directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not? + +Mr. MOORE. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it? + +Mr. MOORE. What is the procedure? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you +sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the +court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of +your testimony here. + +Mr. MOORE. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the +reporter. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read +it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting +in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at +the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. MOORE. Yes; she can. + +Mr. BELIN. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us. + +Mr. MOORE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. +Good-bye. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER + +The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. TURNER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. + +Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner? + +Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. TURNER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. TURNER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. TURNER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas? + +Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school? + +Mr. TURNER. Finished. + +Mr. BELIN. You finished high school? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. Went in the service. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy? + +Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service? + +Mr. TURNER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy? + +Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard. + +Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? + +Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge? + +Mr. TURNER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's +helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then +I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked +there until I came to work for the police department. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. TURNER. I was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade? + +Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your position? + +Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 +minutes in front of the motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car? + +Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department. + +Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police? + +Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? + +Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose +name I do not remember. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President? + +Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do +not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the +motorcade? + +Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love +Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They +were about ready to leave, and we had a running start. + +Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio? + +Mr. TURNER. Two. + +Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on? + +Mr. TURNER. Channel 2. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2? + +Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there +was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some +of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and +forth. + +Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or +also on channel 2? + +Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual +motorcade, is that correct? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio. + +Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was +going? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio +conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got +to Main and Houston? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with? + +Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry. + +Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of +anything out of the ordinary? + +Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, +at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like +Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with +him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men +to get over there and cover off the area around this building there +until some investigators could get there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. +I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said +cover off that area around the overpass, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car? + +Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed? + +Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car. + +Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the +crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car? + +Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the +crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we +come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately? + +Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about +a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it +happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we +drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train +that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched +this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were +already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is +when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly. + +Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there? + +Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar? + +Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody? + +Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it +was, sitting there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they +heard the shots came from? + +Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did +you talk to anyone? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly, +and who else? + +Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina. + +Mr. BELIN. They all worked there? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them? + +Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a +warehouse like. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. BELIN. What did they say? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from +west of the building at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when +the shots came? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was +at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the +building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe +Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in +the warehouse. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him? + +Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their +building. + +Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down +the questioning? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. +I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after +that? + +Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, +come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which +was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might +be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the +sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to +witnesses. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? + +Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see +you have something about an Arnold Rowland there? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland. + +Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did +Rowland say, according to your notes? + +Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with +his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were +standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes +before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the +background of an open window two floors from the top. + +Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top? + +Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with +scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about +this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? + +Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he +made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white +man, and that he heard three shots. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you +remember? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court +reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the +time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window +in any other windows there? + +Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert +Edwards? + +Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them? + +Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing +on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an +open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair +was longer than a crewcut. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did they say? + +Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an +affidavit taken from them at the time, too. + +Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under +Fischer or under Edwards, or both? + +Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man? + +Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. BELIN. Which one? + +Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is. + +Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer? + +Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures? + +Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't +remember positive. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man? + +Mr. TURNER. None other than that. + +Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the +taking of various affidavits there? + +Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the +affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and +affidavits was taken from them. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie +Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan? + +Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan +[spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to. + +Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one. + +Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was +thinking of when you said Brennan. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an +officer had been shot? + +Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking +to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book +Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there. + +Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. +There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the +building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in +there? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat +being found on Industrial Street? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in +the case, but it was placed in the property room. + +Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me +a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had +turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it +had any bearing on the case or not. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated? + +Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the +case. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and +I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that +Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I +might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could +do down there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants +was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search +warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one +of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he +said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this +address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there." + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here +a minute; 1026 North Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car +and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we +got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, +Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because +someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge +Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this +Lee Oswald had a room in it. + +Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, +it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether +the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the +warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I +don't remember the date on the warrant. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it +that didn't belong with the house, you know. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel? + +Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three +were there when we got there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the +homicide and robbery office of the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition +Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of +an inventory that you made? + +Mr. TURNER. I think all of this---- + +Mr. BELIN. Just a second---- + +Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is +the typed-up list of the copies that I made. + +Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at +1026 North Beckley? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up? + +Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other +things? + +Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It +is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth. + +Mr. BELIN. This is your original? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon. + +Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made +by one of the secretaries in the--our office. + +Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this +notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote +part. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as +"Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in +evidence. + +Do you need this back? + +Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had +in my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made +a more detailed description of it down at the property room. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley +residence? + +Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not? + +Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a +Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or +three people there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were +waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them +before we did. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that? + +Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. TURNER. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were +going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe +I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with +Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to +work with that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How +do you go about doing it? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write +it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them +sign it in front of a notary. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from +this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, +or not? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the +secretary, she might have filed it somewhere. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you did that day? + +Mr. TURNER. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this +thing. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you +think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes +here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about +it. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at +1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell +with you? + +Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of +vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination +cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there +was any of those there or not? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or was not? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know +of, except I came to work, like I said. + +They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots +of us busy answering the phone. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation +sessions with Oswald? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end +of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in +just as they were winding up on him one night. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to +identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't +know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a +picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he +had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he +stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact +replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to +Captain Fritz, and he already had the information. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any +importance? + +Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, +November 24? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station? + +Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and +my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, +or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I +called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to +work about 1 o'clock or so. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with +regard to the assassination? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to +the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man +at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say? + +Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald +had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 +or 212 Irving Boulevard. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found +there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, +Dial Ryder, that worked for him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I +have talked with both of them. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I +sure don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener? + +Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald +in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work +for the man in the shop. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything? + +Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names, +and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason +there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't +worked on it. + +Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the +clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of +the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a +gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. About when was that? + +Mr. TURNER. About November 28. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? + +Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say? + +Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of +the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could +figure out, his--this work probably came in around November the 4th or +November the 8th of 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would +call attention to it? + +Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on +it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about +this, about the man they did the work for? + +Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say? + +Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself? + +Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these +men? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket? + +Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket +on--or try to pick up the work ticket? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said +that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and +not let it get away from him. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this? + +Mr. TURNER. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you +remember? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did +you discuss this with Mr. Greener? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it? + +Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith +means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach +a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. +Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three +screws in it. + +Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he +said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it +that was found in the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it. + +Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top? + +Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole. + +Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a +screw? + +Mr. TURNER. A hole. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean? + +Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a +spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, +they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that +is to sight a rifle in. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any +particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for +scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the +Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three +screws in their mount. + +Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not +you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the +School Book Depository Building had? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition +for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle? + +Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber +rifles, 6.5. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further +checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see +if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it +might have been picked up. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether +or not he did this? + +Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't +able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount +or nature or something. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now? + +Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to +him? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say? + +Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the +name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated +that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not +the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification +one way or the other, if you remember? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't +identify him. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? + +Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written +up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could +recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or +something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure +out what day the rifle might have been left there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not? + +Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking +to him, do you? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of +the rifle? + +Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the +paper. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to +determine that he had or had not worked on it? + +Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not +think that he was working on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Why not? + +Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only +two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this +ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap +scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the +man another one, and would remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of +Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.? + +Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said +about this? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked +like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this +man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say +definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him. + +Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of +that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the +investigation you made that we haven't discussed here? + +Mr. TURNER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to +Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three +holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your +curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from +Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this +particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank +you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here. + +One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this +and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive +the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any +preference or not? + +Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as +soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way. + +Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it? + +Mr. TURNER. Well. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GUY F. ROSE + +The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in +the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ROSE. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, now, please? + +Mr. ROSE. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. ROSE. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide +and robbery bureau. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. ROSE. Ten years. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. ROSE. I was born in Grannis, Ark. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school? + +Mr. ROSE. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and +attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District +between Irving and Grand Prairie. + +Mr. BALL. And what have you done since then? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a +construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I +went on the police department. + +Mr. BALL. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21 +years old? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was what year? + +Mr. ROSE. It was in 1954. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. ROSE. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time +of the assassination I was not on duty. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty? + +Mr. ROSE. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting--I came +on to work. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? + +Mr. ROSE. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city +hall. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? + +Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository +and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they +brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and +he told me it was Hidell. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald? + +Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I +found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found +another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of +the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just +said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came +in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his +name was "Hidell"? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Before you saw the cards? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name? + +Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last +name of "Hidell". + +Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you search him? + +Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I +don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it +or not. + +Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you sitting down? + +Mr. ROSE. No; I was standing in the interrogation room. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he--was he standing too? + +Mr. ROSE. No; he was sitting in the chair. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; he was. + +Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him? + +Mr. ROSE. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was present at that time? + +Mr. ROSE. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both +uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present. + +Mr. BALL. The ones who brought him in? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know their names? + +Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, +but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right +there at the time or not. + +Mr. BALL. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true +name? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. ROSE. He said, "You find out." + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You +just find out." + +Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 +North Beckley? + +Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time? + +Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you go out to Irving--to the Irving +Street address? + +Mr. ROSE. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed +me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went +immediately. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to +go to a certain address in Irving? + +Mr. ROSE. I believe he gave me the address. + +Mr. BALL. What was the address? + +Mr. ROSE. 2515 West Fifth in Irving. + +Mr. BALL. How many men went out there? + +Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, +and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and +we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L. +Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and +they came and met us. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant? + +Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house? + +Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the +county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could +see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see +two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as +soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She +apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and +we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you +to come out. Come right on in." + +Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you? + +Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting +happened, I knew there would be someone out." + +Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What part did you take? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I +was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went +into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't +remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few +minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee +Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called +Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and +asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, +ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." + +I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said +she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth +Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she +said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does +have." + +So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone +and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth +Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to +the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying +on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says +that that's where his rifle is." + +Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or +not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did. + +Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out +from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and +so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't +have the rifle in it. + +Mr. BALL. You brought that in? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you see? + +Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that +time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and +talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements +to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and +Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did +assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too +much. + +Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it +was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote +it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken. + +Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael +Paine come in? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in +plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't +appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just +walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the +corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he +didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, +and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I +heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help." + +Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us. + +Mr. BALL. Did Marina Oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say +something? + +Mr. ROSE. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and +Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for +me--she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is." + +Mr. BALL. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie +Randle come over to you? + +Mr. ROSE. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with +her--I saw her out in the yard--I didn't talk to her. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to her at all? + +Mr. ROSE. At that time I didn't--I did later. + +Mr. BALL. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police +department, did you? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children +in our car and also the blanket--I carried it. + +Mr. BALL. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and +looking around for Wesley Frazier? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine +and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was +so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next +door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective +Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying +to locate Wesley Frazier. + +We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked +through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check +of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located +through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone +there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic, +so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to +talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one +that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning. + +Mr. BALL. You took a statement from Frazier that day? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written +affidavit off of him. + +Mr. BALL. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; I brought her in, too. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except +the time you mentioned? + +Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him? + +Mr. ROSE. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday--I was present +when Captain Fritz talked to him. + +Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day? + +Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since +quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage. + +Mr. BALL. What did you find there? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two +cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of +Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald +holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right +with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you +call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative +of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and +he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle. + +Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags? + +Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call +them--more of a greyish-white. + +Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases? + +Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of +them was real worn. + +Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later +that day? + +Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9 +or 10 o'clock, I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't +remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but +I don't remember their names. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said? + +Mr. ROSE. Do I remember what was said? + +Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got +back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the +rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to +the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they +made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it +back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed +him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw +the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because +somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain +said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?" + +And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I +remember that part of it distinctly. + +I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in +Russia. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored +people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember--he +just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk +about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the +President? + +Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit? + +Mr. ROSE. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of +the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him. +That was the only interrogation I sat in on. + +Mr. BALL. That was the only one you sat in on? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said in that +interrogation? + +Mr. ROSE. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more +said, but I don't remember what it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises? + +Mr. ROSE. Let's, let's see--that was Saturday, and then Sunday, +immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was +supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and +Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's +apartment and search it and I did. + +Mr. BALL. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you, +Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your +signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you +can waive your signature--just as you wish. What do you prefer? + +Mr. ROSE. Well, I don't know--will it be later? + +Mr. BALL. A couple of weeks. + +Mr. ROSE. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime. + +Mr. BALL. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much. + +Mr. ROSE. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you +now, I wanted to mention--we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph, +did you know that? + +Mr. BALL. I know you did--we know about that. + +Mr. ROSE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY + +The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mr. PERRY. W. E. Perry. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address? + +Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook. + +Mr. BALL. And your occupation? + +Mr. PERRY. Police officer. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born +and where you were raised? + +Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school? + +Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went +in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on +to the police department. Been there about 11 years. + +Mr. BALL. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in +November of 1963? + +Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau---- + +Mr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Squadroom? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or---- + +Mr. BALL. First one? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. PERRY. 6:30. + +Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before? + +Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking +part in showups before in your department? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself? + +Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part? + +Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I +don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the +vice squad? + +Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done. + +Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part +in the first showup? + +Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you? + +Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau. + +Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third +floor of the homicide office. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was there? + +Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide +detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't +know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the +office was---- + +Mr. BALL. Anything said there? + +Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress? + +Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my +shirt and put another sports coat on. + +Mr. BALL. What color? + +Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup? + +Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup. + +Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. To whom? + +Mr. PERRY. To Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand? + +Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand. + +Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup? + +Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1. + +Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald? + +Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me. + +Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald? + +Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed. + +Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4? + +Mr. PERRY. Ables. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before? + +Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally. + +Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any +questions? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you. + +Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."? + +Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation. + +Mr. BALL. What else? + +Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not +mistaken. + +Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him? + +Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they +were, but they weren't---- + +Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or true address? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Gave some---- + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that? + +Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and +said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we +went back up there and---- + +Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time? + +Mr. PERRY. Same way. + +Mr. BALL. Same coat? + +Mr. PERRY. Same coat. + +Mr. BALL. No tie? + +Mr. PERRY. No tie. + +Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address? + +Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the +audience? + +Mr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions? + +Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims? + +Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience? + +Mr. PERRY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage? + +Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know? + +Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one? + +Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please? + +Mr. PERRY. About 5'11". + +Mr. BALL. What is your weight? + +Mr. PERRY. About 150. + +Mr. BALL. And your hair? + +Mr. PERRY. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. And your eyes? + +Mr. PERRY. Blue. + +Mr. BALL. Complexion? + +Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess. + +Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK + +The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CLARK. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. + +Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address? + +Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? + +Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. CLARK. Eleven years. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? + +Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Go through school here? + +Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. CLARK. After I went to school? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. CLARK. I went to work. + +Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't +going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about +you and where you were born and your early education, what you have +done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the +testimony. + +Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the +police department. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department? + +Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of +the police department, did you? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. CLARK. Two. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were? + +Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the +exact time. + +Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. +That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup? + +Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple +of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? + +Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BALL. Who went with you? + +Mr. CLARK. My partner. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there? + +Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there. + +Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there? + +Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there? + +Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people? + +Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody. + +Mr. BALL. What was said at that time? + +Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us +to make a showup with them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long? + +Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less. + +Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it +was a red vest, went on down to the jail office. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest? + +Mr. CLARK. At homicide. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't own a---- + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or---- + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt? + +Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Took off your tie? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on? + +Mr. CLARK. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. With belt? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do? + +Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a +sports coat hanging there that he put on. + +Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you? + +Mr. CLARK. Total? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man +out of the jail office. + +Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup? + +Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand. + +Mr. BALL. Your right---- + +Mr. CLARK. To his left. + +Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald? + +Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right +hand. + +Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables? + +Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left. + +Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the +showup as such? Have a number above each man? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do. + +Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were +you numbered from left to right? + +Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right. + +Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the +audience? + +Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite. + +Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who +was the first one to the left? + +Mr. CLARK. First one to my left? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. CLARK. Be Ables. + +Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry. + +Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2? + +Mr. CLARK. Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3? + +Mr. CLARK. Myself. + +Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4? + +Mr. CLARK. Ables. + +Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. +The audience was looking at him, it would be---- + +Mr. BALL. He stood on your left? + +Mr. CLARK. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1? + +Mr. CLARK. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any +questions? + +Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions. + +Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any +questions? Ask your name and address and occupation? + +Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup. + +Mr. BALL. In the showup. + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? + +Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Fictitious name? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation? + +Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious. + +Mr. BALL. Fictitious? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said. + +Mr. BALL. Lights were on you? + +Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and +tell me what time that first showup was? + +Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you? + +Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in +that? + +Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from +homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after +the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they +wanted us again. + +Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around? + +Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office. + +Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there. + +Mr. BALL. Who called you? + +Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call? + +Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there. + +Mr. BALL. Fritz' office? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in +the first showup? + +Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the +homicide, and I took it off and left it there. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress? + +Mr. CLARK. The same red vest. + +Mr. BALL. What about your tie? + +Mr. CLARK. No tie. + +Mr. BALL. What about the coat? + +Mr. CLARK. No coat. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing? + +Mr. CLARK. Same position. + +Mr. BALL. Same position? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1? + +Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald---- + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. CLARK. Perry. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2? + +Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4. + +Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions? + +Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again. + +Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? + +Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation. + +Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers. + +Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is your height? + +Mr. CLARK. About 5'11". + +Mr. BALL. What is your weight? + +Mr. CLARK. About 177. + +Mr. BALL. And your hair? + +Mr. CLARK. Blond. + +Mr. BALL. And your eyes? + +Mr. CLARK. Blue. + +Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair? + +Mr. CLARK. Fair. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before? + +Mr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in +the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in +the police department showup? + +Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual. + +Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before? + +Mr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that is all. + +Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his +deposition. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES + +The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ABLES. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. + +Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables? + +Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation? + +Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. ABLES. About 7 months. + +Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department? + +Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee. + +Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not---- + +Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the---- + +Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? + +Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't. + +Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. + +Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school? + +Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy? + +Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy? + +Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police +department. + +Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. With Oswald? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who +asked you to, or ordered you to? + +Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan. + +Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? + +Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out +there. + +Mr. BALL. To where? + +Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined +in with them. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room. + +Mr. BALL. Showup room? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room? + +Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here +[indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And dark trousers? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Have a tie on? + +Mr. ABLES. No. + +Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is +that right? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup +room? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before? + +Mr. ABLES. No. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police +Department being used in a showup before? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the +police department. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly +what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using +jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not +holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned +about it? + +Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a +police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard +of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need +somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a +showup or something. + +Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked +certain questions? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in +the line? + +Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4. + +Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the +audience? + +Mr. ABLES. Be on the left. + +Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Your left? + +Mr. ABLES. My left. + +Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he +ask you any questions? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he ask you? + +Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my +occupation was and where I went to high school. + +Mr. BALL. And where what? + +Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. What did you answer? + +Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't +recall what I told him when he asked my occupation. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did +you tell him? + +Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the +questions? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything? + +Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him +questions. + +Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't +you? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day? + +Mr. ABLES. About 6:30. + +Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed? + +Mr. ABLES. Same way. + +Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup? + +Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same +members back in there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions? + +Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number? + +Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup? + +Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself. + +Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Ask you questions? + +Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did +on the first showup. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup. + +Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they +were? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr BALL. When was that? + +Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time. + +Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock? + +Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you? + +Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners. + +Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there? + +Mr. ABLES. I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners? + +Mr ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know +whether he was there? + +Mr ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know him? + +Mr. ABLES. No. + +Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup? + +Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said +that he wanted me back in there. + +Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail +during the time? + +Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office. + +Mr. BALL. In between the showups? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day? + +Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup? + +Mr. ABLES. Same way. + +Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second? + +Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again? + +Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite +sure there was no questions asked. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number? + +Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald? + +Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2. + +Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald? + +Mr. ABLES. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height? + +Mr. ABLES. About 5'9". + +Mr. BALL. What is your weight? + +Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something. + +Mr. BALL. And your hair? + +Mr. ABLES. Dark. + +Mr. BALL. Eyes? + +Mr. ABLES. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. Complexion? + +Mr. ABLES. Ruddy. + +Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too. + +Mr. ABLES. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN + +The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on +April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please. + +Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you +are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in +this matter? You were asked to come here? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you not? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the +facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain +information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to +their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify. + +Are you willing to testify to whatever you know? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff +officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name? + +Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear. + +Mr. BALL. Dallas? + +Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born? + +Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. In Dallas? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? + +Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray. + +Mr. BALL. Red? + +Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? + +Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? + +Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service. + +Mr. BALL. Direct to where? + +Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service. + +Mr. BALL. Delivery Service? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? + +Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville. + +Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that. + +Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary. + +Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. For what charge? + +Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you there? + +Mr. LUJAN. Three years. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale +Groceries. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. + +Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps? + +Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. LUJAN. T. & W. + +Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was the charge? + +Mr. LUJAN. Investigation. + +Mr. BALL. Of what? + +Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics. + +Mr. BALL. Of narcotics? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested? + +Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that. + +Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination. + +Mr. BALL. Before the assassination? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail? + +Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday. + +Mr. BALL. Then did they release you? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything? + +Mr. LUJAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take +part in a showup? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day was it? + +Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the +afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon? + +Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Or what? + +Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday. + +Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday---- + +Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that? + +Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand +up and he looked at me and said, "Come out." + +So, I came out, and he went and got three more. + +Mr. BALL. Got three more? + +Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows. + +Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know them? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did they look like? + +Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker. + +Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight? + +Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170. + +Mr. BALL. What is your height? + +Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8". + +Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark? + +Mr. LUJAN. Black. + +Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes? + +Mr. LUJAN. Brown. + +Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion? + +Mr. LUJAN. Olive. + +Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican. + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you? + +Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about---- + +Mr. BALL. Same coloring? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup? + +Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him. + +Mr. BALL. Right next to him? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything? + +Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were +standing in the lineup? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were what would be---- + +Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him. + +Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed---- + +Mr. BALL. To the right? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he? + +Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something. + +Mr. BALL. How were you dressed? + +Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt. + +Mr. BALL. What color shirt? + +Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket. + +Mr. BALL. Brown jacket? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Any tie on? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co. + +Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number. + +Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address? + +Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all. + +Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud? + +Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a +shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something. + +Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left +about a minute. + +Mr. BALL. Then you left? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you +in there and he did ask you questions? + +Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and +that's all. + +Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they? + +Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others +their name and address? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address? + +Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave. + +Mr. LUJAN. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself? + +Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me. + +Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working? + +Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN + +The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise +your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BROWN. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please. + +Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown? + +Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. BROWN. Police officer. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? + +Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years. + +Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally? + +Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home. + +Mr. BELIN. You go to school there? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. BROWN. Through high school. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? + +Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way? + +Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. BROWN. No; divorced. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy? + +Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the +Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way? + +Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty +officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy. + +Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my +discharge in 1944. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war? + +Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. + +Mr. BELIN. As what? + +Mr. BROWN. As an installer. + +Mr. BELIN. Of telephones? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went +to work for the city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go +to work for the city of Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. How long now? + +Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your position now? + +Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so? + +Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective +J. R. Leavelle. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President? + +Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the +office. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that +was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now." + +So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there +and help them." + +So we immediately put this subject in jail. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the +back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth +floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth +floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me +to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there +was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take +them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they +were at the time of the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. + +Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they +were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city +hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, +and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of +them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley +looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is +one of my boys." + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say? + +Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald +in there in the room we were using. + +We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in +there. + +Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered +the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth +floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers +had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and +told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified +was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there. + +He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes." + +Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time? + +Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas +School Book Depository. He called from there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was +responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes." + +Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination? + +Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal +opinion at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. +Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at +this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, +saw, or heard at the time of the assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the +time you talked to him? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, +that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from +him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring +Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his +own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in +conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and +what he was doing, and what type work he did there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the +shooting? + +Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the +shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent +to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President? + +Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he +said he was. + +Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me. + +Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the +deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then. + +Mr. BROWN. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an +affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time? + +Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee? + +Mr. BROWN. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit? + +Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from +every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they +were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that +you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form? + +I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard +to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that +you participated in? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, +C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with +a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a +busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in +the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from +your left to right. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the +lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. BROWN. No; it does not. + +Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available? + +Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were +taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee +Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the +bus transfer. + +Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup +were for other witnesses to observe. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup? + +Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his +identification? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the +bus. I gave him a transfer." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found +in Oswald's possession? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that? + +Mr. BROWN. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority. + +Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that? + +Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark." + +Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that? + +Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He +did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, +and he held it up for comparison there in our presence. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you +remember? + +Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the +identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups. + +Mr. BELIN. Who else? + +Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. +Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder +from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took +affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home. + +After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room +where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other +witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively +identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. +Barbara Jeannette Davis. + +Mr. BELIN. Was---- + +Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and +Mrs. Barbara Davis. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick? + +Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a +four-man lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man? + +Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got +them under the numbers, too. + +Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly. + +Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification? + +Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the +showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses +on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the +murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the +assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, +November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a +Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law +of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an +additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard. + +Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the +Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent +hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the +homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the +two women? + +Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office +for affidavits and identification. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to? + +Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over? + +Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that. + +Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that? + +Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara +Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime +lab himself, which was initialled by both of us. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir? + +Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any +further witnesses. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or +the Tippit murder? + +Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition +when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have +our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your +choice. + +Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then? + +Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right +out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and +the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES + +Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in +the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GRAVES. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter? + +Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves? + +Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8, +1918. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and +Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp. + +Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years? + +Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then +I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized +and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was +discharged after the war. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and +I cooked principally all the time I was in. + +Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food +wasn't good? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints. + +Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do? + +Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to +work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express +Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to +work for Interstate Theatres. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate? + +Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H. +Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they +went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where +I was working when I went to work for the police department. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say +Paramount, was that---- + +Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section +of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount +Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, +which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the +movie industry or picture industry, so to speak. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business? + +Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where? + +Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres? + +Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning +operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the +equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration. + +Mr. BELIN. Of theatres? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. BELIN. What year was that? + +Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever +since? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all? + +Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That +is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact. + +Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you +got to the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from, +I believe her name was, Helen Markham. + +Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass +confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she +was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across +the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her +over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady +and take an affidavit from her, which I did. + +Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions. + +Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally. + +Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most +hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and +Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many +people were in this showup? + +Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up? + +Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was +identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in +a four-man lineup, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular +lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that +lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any +way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this +lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs. +Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men +that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the +names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself. +I don't remember this physical description. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or +was one or more a Negro? + +Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual +if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear +in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their +approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I +might add, because we just don't operate that way. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to +showups? Perhaps you could tell us this. + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call +the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the +showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the +approximate age, size, and so forth. + +And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we +have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify +what age or size you want? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the +man that you are bringing down. + +Mr. BELIN. Well---- + +Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out. + +Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the +particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another +particular age and size? + +Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to +pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. +That is what it boils down to. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said +when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to +her? + +Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately +4 or 5 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct? + +Mr. GRAVES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time? + +Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately +in the first row of seats near the front. + +Mr. BELIN. She was seated? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing. + +Mr. BELIN. She was standing? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am +sure you have seen them? + +Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the +showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is +that correct? + +Mr. GRAVES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the +men in the showup came in? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the +last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that +came in. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and +then No. 1? + +Mr. GRAVES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying? + +Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as +far as from here to that stand, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, +Oswald. I mean at this particular time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their +profiles? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is +the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left, +and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time +that she made the identification? + +Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that +would--did they speak any words or say anything at all? + +Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am +reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure. +If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not. + +Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an +actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or +pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing +or what they looked like? + +Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has +been done, however, in the past. + +But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing, +because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a +time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the +picture, and so forth. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in +connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's +identification? + +Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual +showup? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee +Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at +4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on +the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man +lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your +actions on that day? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit +of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe. + +Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not? + +Mr. GRAVES. November 23. + +Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22. + +Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down +for the record. + +Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me +if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the +written record that you submitted to your department. + +I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you +can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in +your written report. + +Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you +remember something that you might not have put down at the time. + +Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen +Markham back to her address, to let her out? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said +as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting? + +Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to +see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either +going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her +being at that location. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other +people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not? + +Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were? + +Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo +Benavides. + +Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do +with the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a +lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not +seen anything authentic about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the +city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway +and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is +there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come +down to give an affidavit or view a lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea. + +Mr. BELIN. Well---- + +Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw +them or had any occasion to talk to them any further. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo +Benavides? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see +if I can help you a little bit. + +I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the +Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over +Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in +your memory? + +Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him +to one side. + +Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to? + +Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that. + +Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22? + +Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so +many phone calls. + +Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day? + +Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23? + +Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at +all, or not? + +Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take +her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was. + +Mr. GRAVES. What? + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down +to view a lineup? + +Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of. + +Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus +shortly after the assassination? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to +a lineup and she refused to come down? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I +asked her to come down and give an affidavit. + +Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose +responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? +Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of +the investigation, or what? + +Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in +charge of the entire investigation. + +Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe? + +Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been +Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23? + +Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I +don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding. + +Mr. BELIN. Now on November 24--first, I want to take that part of +November 24 up to the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by +Jack Ruby. First, did you have any contact or anything to do with the +investigation of the case on November 24, on Sunday? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; not before he was transferred. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GRAVES. Nothing except that I was present during the latter part of +the interrogation; part of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you state the circumstances under which you were +present? How you happened to be present? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I had been told that we were going to transfer Lee +Harvey Oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so +that would necessitate going into the office where he was. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you find when you went in the office? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I found, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald, Captain +Fritz, and the people that I have named here. The others present were +Mr. Holmes from the U.S. Post Office Department, Mr. Kelley from +the Secret Service, Agent Sorrels from the Secret Service, L. D. +Montgomery, detective; C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle; and Chief Curry +came in just a few minutes before we started to move. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in the bringing of Oswald down to be +interrogated? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At about what time in the morning, was this? + +Mr. GRAVES. I think that was around 9:30 a.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did +you leave? + +Mr. GRAVES. I stayed in the same room near. In the bureau, actually. + +Mr. BELIN. This was done in Captain Fritz' office, was it not? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. After you brought Lee Harvey Oswald into Captain Fritz' +office at 9:30 a.m., what did you do? + +Mr. GRAVES. I went back out and answered telephones and talked to +people coming in. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you witness any part of the early interrogation? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you go back into Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. GRAVES. Roughly, about 11:10 or 11:15 a.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, the original time set for transfer was around 10 a.m.? + +Mr. GRAVES. That was my understanding. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your +deposition here? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So you have already been questioned as to the transfer of +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the +interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, +but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and +in Russia. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was +in Mexico? + +Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico? + +Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he +said. I don't remember exactly, so I would rather not say anything. I +know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure +didn't amount to a great deal. Very evasive, as every other answer was. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific, any questions or any +statements that Oswald made about any other subject that was discussed? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, he said that he had been a student of Marxism since +he was 14, I believe, and Communist line, and that he, well, one of +his last statements was that the American people would soon forget the +President was shot. Of course he never admitted that he did it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it? + +Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; he was asked, but of course---- + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said? + +Mr. GRAVES. He said no, he didn't shoot him. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot Officer +Tippit? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a +rifle? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his answer was? + +Mr. GRAVES. He said that he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of +him with a rifle? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his statement was with regard to the +picture? + +Mr. GRAVES. He said, "You could superimpose anything you want to with +cameras. It wasn't him." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else, that you remember, about the +picture? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about the use of an alias? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes; he was, but he denied that, of course. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his +possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my +presence. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he +was in your presence? + +Mr. GRAVES. Having a lawyer? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which +was around 9:30, how long did you stay there? Through about how many +minutes of interrogation before you left? + +Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, from 9:30 until approximately 11:15, somewhere +along there. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred +throughout this period? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, how long were you in the room where he was being +interrogated? + +Mr. GRAVES. About 10 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. You were there the first 10 minutes? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; last 10 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any of the initial questions of the +interrogation at all? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you accompanied Oswald down from his fifth floor jail +cell to Captain Fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with him when you picked him +up at his jail cell? + +Mr. GRAVES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down +for interrogation? + +Mr. GRAVES. I told him they were going to transfer him. + +Mr. BELIN. That is what you told him? + +Mr. GRAVES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say as to that? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know what +transfer meant, I don't think. I think he meant from one jail cell to +another. He didn't know that meant going to the county. + +Mr. BELIN. When you brought him down to Captain Fritz' office, he of +course had been there before, hadn't he? + +Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have any comments as he walked in the office about +being interrogated or anything of that nature? + +Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. He might have said something to the news +media, I don't remember what it was. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald ever +requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal +knowledge is concerned? Did he ever make any such request to you or in +your presence? + +Mr. GRAVES. No, no; sure didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he +was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer? + +Mr. GRAVES. Not in my presence. + +Mr. BELIN. This is what I am asking, then, just of your own knowledge? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; he wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. He might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done +before you? + +Mr. GRAVES. Might have been by someone else, but not in my presence. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this as much contact as you had with Oswald? You +indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell +and you brought him down to be interrogated on November 24, when +you were present during about 10 minutes, the latter part of this +interrogation. Any other contacts with Oswald apart from these? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; not that I had direct contact with him. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your impression of him, as far as a person is +concerned? His demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, +but I would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular. + +Mr. BELIN. An eight ball in Army vernacular? + +Mr. GRAVES. In any vernacular. We deal with a lot of people in our +business, as well as we run into all types of people. I would say that +he was egotistical. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me stop right there. What gave you the impression he was +egotistical? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't know. A person of his nature and cocky +attitude, I don't know exactly how to explain it. + +Mr. BELIN. Any specific thing that he did that gave you that +impression, that you can remember at all, or not? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; not anything in particular. Again, you just have to be +around people. I don't know how to explain how people act to where it +means anything, but I know what it means to me. I have been wrong a few +times, but I have been right most of the time in summing up how people +are, their actions, and so forth, and I would say this boy was a little +far out in his belief about things in general. + +And the way he conducted hisself. He is just plain egotistical, that is +all. He don't care about you, me, or anybody else. He is caring about +Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you think of any specific action or remark of his that +might be an illustration of this? + +Mr. GRAVES. I can't offhand, no. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball." +You used "egotistical." Can you use any other adjective that you think +would apply to him as you saw him? + +Mr. GRAVES. No; I think that pretty well covers it, myself. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he +quick to make remarks? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark +when he was spoken to or asked a question. + +Mr. BELIN. Is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or +not? + +Mr. GRAVES. Not always polite. He was straightforward and to the point, +and not necessarily polite. + +Don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because I am just telling +you my own personal feeling about the man, and I could be wrong, as I +said. So I am not an expert in that field. I am just telling you what I +think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. As I said, I +could be wrong. I have been wrong before. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he attentive as you saw him. I mean, did he---- + +Mr. GRAVES. If you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the +men. He listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer +by the time you got through asking him. That would make him attentive. + +Mr. BELIN. This could be helpful. In other words, if he were asked a +question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just +shoot an answer straight back? + +Mr. GRAVES. Just answered right back. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember, +or was this almost invariably the case? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, that was the case in everything that I heard him say. +He didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all. + +Mr. BELIN. Detective Graves, is there anything else you can think of +that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything +to do with Lee Harvey Oswald or the investigation of the assassination, +or the shooting of Officer Tippit, that we haven't discussed here? + +Mr. GRAVES. At this point, I don't recall anything else. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so, +because we know you have been down here once before, and I want to tell +you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of +this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or +you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in Washington, +and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? Do you have any +preference at all? + +Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I don't sign it, it won't make any difference +anyway. + +Mr. BELIN. You can waive it if you would like to. + +Mr. GRAVES. I will waive it. It don't make any difference to me. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. GRAVES. In the interest of time and everything. + +Mr. BELIN. Thanks a lot. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. LEAVELLE + +The testimony of James R. Leavelle was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. +Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general, was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand? + +[Witness complying.] + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. James R. Leavelle. + +Mr. BALL. And your address? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. 7703 R-i-l-l-a [spelling], Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. And, what is your occupation? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Detective, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the department? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Fourteen years. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the homicide squad? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. A little over 5 years. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me about where you were born and your education; what +you have done most of your life. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was born and raised mostly in Red River County in +east Texas and went into service. After leaving the service, coming out +of the service I worked for different companies here in Dallas until I +joined the department in 1950. + +Mr. BALL. The purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts +concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. That's the general +purpose of it. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member +of the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with +Oswald, myself. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I was working 8 to 4 I believe, that month and I +had--when I heard of the assassination. I had just come into the +homicide office with a Negro boy I had arrested for robbery. + +Mr. BALL. Whereabouts did you go then after that? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. We, along with Charlie Brown, went to the building, the +Texas Book Depository, and talked with the inspector there. I asked him +if the building had been secured and he said it was and Captain Fritz +was in the building. + +Mr. BALL. Was that Inspector Sawyer? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the +sheriff's office and I might go over and check and see what was needed, +so I went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar +more or less. They had several witnesses around and they wanted to +take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. So, when +I walked in, they knew I was a homicide man and would be indirectly +responsible for some of the investigation, so I talked with Allen +Sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the +taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four, +five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me +that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and +asked me what was needed, so I told them to work with Mr. Sweatt and +take those affidavits and they could do that as well as I and I would +go back to the Depository and see what might further be needed over +there. I went to the Depository and had been there just a short time +talking to some of the officers on duty there. I don't remember who +they were at this time and at that time I heard a radio broadcast of +the shooting in Oak Cliff which involved Officer Tippit and I called my +office and found that there was no one to answer the call in Oak Cliff +and since everything was under control there, I felt like some of us +should be in Oak Cliff, so I borrowed a car from Detective Red Edwards +of burglary---- + +(At this point, Mr. Robert T. Davis enters.) + +Mr. BALL. Go ahead, Mr. Leavelle. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I borrowed an automobile from Detective Red Edwards, A. +L. Edwards, and proceeded to the Oak Cliff area. I went to the scene of +the shooting. They had removed Tippit's body at that time and I talked +with the sergeant and the officer. + +Mr. BALL. What were their names? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe Sergeant Bud Owens was the sergeant there and +one of the uniformed officers was--I may be in error on this, but I +believe it was Poe. + +Mr. BALL. J. M. Poe? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; P-o-e [spelling]. + +Mr. BALL. At that time someone told you some empty .38 caliber hulls +had been picked up. Did Poe tell you that? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did he give you the hulls? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; he did not give them to me. I think my instructions +to him were to turn them over to the crime lab. + +Mr. BALL. Did he show them to you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I don't think so; he may have but I do not recall. He +may have. He did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't +know her name at the time. So, while I was talking to him was when +the call came out they seen the suspect go into the Texas Theatre, +so I proceeded to the Texas Theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, I +didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so +I returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and I +believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen +Oswald running from the scene. + +Mr. BALL. Who told you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Poe, I believe. Now, I could be in error on that but +someone told me anyway, so---- + +Mr. BALL. You went back to the police station and took some affidavits +from witnesses, didn't you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. That's right, I went on to the station at that time and +took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they +had brought in there because at the time I didn't realize there was +any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit or the one +that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit +and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different +things altogether. So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that +end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the +Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize +some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the +Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the +same one who assassinated the President. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did Captain Fritz instruct you to go out and pick up +the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; this Helen Markham, the witness, was in such a state +of shock she had been unable to view the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see her the first time? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. She was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency +room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city +hall, and I went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed +down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she +told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, I called the +captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time +some of the other officers brought Oswald down. I took here into the +showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Were you and Helen Markham the only two in what you call the +showup room? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No, Captain Fritz and Chief Curry was in there also and +possibly one or two others; I do not recall. + +Mr. BALL. How about your partner, C. W. Brown? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know whether he was there or not. + +Mr. BALL. Any other witnesses? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Now Mr. Graves may have been in there. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any other witnesses in there? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Who picked the men for the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know. + +Mr. BALL. Did you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had nothing to do with that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who the men were in the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. That particular showup they had gotten two of the +officers, I believe, that work in the vice squad. + +Mr. BALL. I have the names of the people in the showup; No. 1 was Bill +Perry; is he a Dallas Police Department officer? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. No. 3 R. L. Clark---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He is an officer also. + +Mr. BALL. Vice squad? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Don Ables is a jail clerk? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked these men? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I do not know who decided that they be in the +showup. Of course, I am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of +the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting +prisoners down there. + +Mr. BALL. Is it unusual to use officers in the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we don't normally do it. + +Mr. BALL. You usually have other prisoners in the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, trustees serving time, or---- + +Mr. BALL. What is your memory as to how these men were dressed? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, I +believe. I don't think there was any coats involved in any of them. + +Mr. BALL. Did any have ties? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. None had ties or hats on. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes. + +Mr. BALL. What questions? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case +because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard +the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, +anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice. + +Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what did Helen Markham say while she was in the showup +room? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, she was very nervous and I do not recall what all +she did say, but she was able to identify Oswald as the one. + +Mr. BALL. What did she tell you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. She said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do +the shooting over there in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a statement from her then? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I took one from her but I do not remember whether--just +when I took it. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after +we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and +talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the +one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the +man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter +there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, +each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the +man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside +and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot +with the gun in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. You also talked to Domingo Benavides? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. D-o-m-i-n-g-o B-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. I would think it +would be spelled differently. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to be Mexican descent but that Benavides +is actually an Italian name, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did you talk to him also? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I talked with him but I do not believe we ever took an +affidavit off him that I recall--may have. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the +officer. I remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from +someone who gave them to him, and when I talked to Domingo, he said he +was the one picked them up and give them to the officer. + +Mr. BALL. Did you bring any of these men downtown? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ask them---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I called later--Ted Callaway--bring the others down; +however, I think the Negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the +only one he brought. + +Mr. BALL. You say you told him to bring the others down? Who did you +tell to bring down? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. The porter and this Domingo. + +Mr. BALL. But he only brought---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Sam Guinyard. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know why Domingo Benavides was never brought down for +the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I think he said he never saw the man actually. I believe +he said later on he did not see the man. + +Mr. BALL. He testified here he saw the man running. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. But he--either that or he told me he could not recognize +him, one or the other. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a showup with Callaway and Guinyard? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I do not recall the time but we did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your +memory? Here is a report that you made, also. [Papers to witness.] + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, at 6:30 p.m. would be right. + +Mr. BALL. 6:30 p.m.? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in the audience side of the showup this time? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. As far as I know there wasn't anyone other than Mr. +Graves and myself, and I am not too sure he was there. I do not recall. + +Mr. BALL. Your notes say that Brown and Dhority were with you. Is that +right? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I do not remember; it could have been. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with the witnesses? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Who was with the witnesses? + +Mr. BALL. What officer was with the witnesses? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, we were with them. + +Mr. BALL. Who talked to them? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the +lineup? + +Mr. BALL. No; I am talking about the witnesses. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Only two witnesses is Callaway and Guinyard and I talked +with them. + +Mr. BALL. You talked with them? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who were the men in the showup this time? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember. + +Mr. BALL. These notes show that Billy Perry was No. 1; R. L. Clark, No. +2; and 4, Don Ables; and No. 2, Oswald. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I know they were on two different showups, so it is quite +possible. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questions of the men in the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I would think I would have been--the same line. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what Ted Callaway said? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Not per se; I know they were able to identify Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. What was the substance of what he said? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall. + +Mr. BALL. You say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because I +don't know what he identified him as. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said he was the man; he identified him as the man he +saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the +Oak Cliff area near his carlot. + +Mr. BALL. What about Sam Guinyard? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Same thing, practically. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take statements from them? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe I took affidavits from them, according to my +notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to +look at a jacket which---- + +Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything +like the jacket? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly +like it. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket. + +Mr. BALL. Now then, did you do anything else that day on this +investigation? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone +in the office. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work at what time Saturday morning, November 23, +1963? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. It would be around 8 o'clock, I imagine. + +Mr. BALL. And did you take some statements that day? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Chances are I may have, I do not remember. + +Mr. BALL. Here is---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. It says took one affidavit from R. S. Truly, supervisor +of Texas School Book and the other of employee, Mrs. R. A. Reid. + +Mr. BALL. You are refreshing your memory from a report that you made, +is that correct? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend another showup that day? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we held another showup that day which involved a +cabdriver---- + +Mr. BALL. What's his name? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. We later found out he was near the scene of the shooting +and saw the shooting, also, W. W. Scoggins. We held a showup for him at +2:15 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. Was anyone else with him at that time? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver, +name of William Wayne Whaley [spelling]. + +Mr. BALL. Had you talked to him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I had not talked to Whaley; no. + +Mr. BALL. What officer talked to Whaley? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Whaley in the squadcar? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Scoggins in the squadcar? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you first see Whaley and Scoggins? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. They came to the office, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down with them to the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure that I did. I do not recall but I am sure I +must have. + +Mr. BALL. Here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh +your memory [notes to witness]. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. From these notes here it indicates I was there along with +them at that time. + +Mr. BALL. What is your memory? Is your memory different from the notes? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember who else was there, if anyone was. + +Mr. BALL. You know that you were there with Scoggins and Whaley? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the men in the showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall who was in there. I know it says who was +here but I could not tell you. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick those men? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; not at anytime did I have anything to do with picking +the men in any of them. + +Mr. BALL. This was your third showup in the course of your +investigation of the murder of Tippit and the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; the third and the only three I had anything to do +with. + +Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I would have handled the speech of that also; asking them +to say a few words. + +Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. That I do not recall either. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether they had coats on? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed +as alike as possible, the same as each other. + +Mr. BALL. What is your memory of this incident? Were they dressed +anywhere near similar? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, +Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where +they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the +rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had +on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last +one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and +wouldn't be quiet. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt +and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that. I don't know what he +didn't say; he went on all the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course. I asked him if he--if the man that he +remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was +up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was +doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still +knew him. + +Mr. BALL. What did Scoggins say? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said practically the same thing--the man in the +T-shirt was the--or the No. 3 man was the man he had saw do the +shooting. + +Mr. BALL. Who said that? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. That would have been Scoggins. + +Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this +man before? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to have seen him I believe, but I do not +recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand. + +Mr. BALL. Where Scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was +sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the +shooting occurred. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on November 24, on Sunday morning, did you return to +work about the same time, 8 o'clock, or so? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Little before 10, I believe, or something. + +Mr. BALL. And, were you ordered by Captain Fritz to get Oswald? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I don't--I see here it says 9:30--whatever the +official time was, I think it probably was maybe about that time. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to get Oswald? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I had to go to the fourth floor jail. + +Mr. BALL. Did you handcuff him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. In front. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you taking him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into +Captain Fritz's office. + +Mr. BALL. Who was present at that meeting in Captain Fritz's office? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I can recall, I believe during that time I was +there there were several people in and out. I believe primarily myself +and Mr. Graves and Dhority and Montgomery were in there most of the +time, I don't know. We were in, probably might have stepped outside the +door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also Mr. +Kelley, Secret Service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. I +cannot recall his name at this time. He should be on here--oh, yes, Mr. +Sorrels, also, and Holmes of the postal department. Now, those people +and Chief Curry came in once or twice. All those people may not have +stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at +some time or other. + +Mr. BALL. Did these various people ask questions of Oswald? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I know Mr. Sorrels did and I know Mr. Kelley did. I do +not recall whether Mr. Holmes asked any questions or not and Captain +Fritz asked him some. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Mr. Sorrels asked him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Remember what Mr. Kelley asked him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I can only remember one question Mr. Kelley asked him +and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the U.S. +Government toward Cuba would be changed since the President has been +assassinated. To my knowledge, that is the only one I can recall. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said "I am filed +on for the President's murder, is that right?" And, Captain Fritz told +him yes, and he told Mr. Kelley, he said "Under the circumstances, I +don't believe that it would be proper." That might not be the words he +used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question +because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than +what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like +when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there +was always a second in command who would take over and he said in +this particular instance it would he Johnson. He said "So far as I +know, Johnson's views and President Kennedy's views are the same", +so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the +U.S. Government toward Cuba. That's about the main--the only one, +because he went into such detail on it, the only one I thought was a +little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason I +remembered it. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any question Captain Fritz asked him? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I remember that the captain asked him about the shooting +of the President and the shooting of the officer; I know he did ask him +that and I know Oswald did deny it, both times. + +Mr. BALL. That he had shot President Kennedy and Tippit? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he denied shooting either one. He did say this "If +you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a +cop in the mouth when I was arrested", he said "Yeah, I plead guilty +to that" but he--I do know that he denied the shooting of both the +President and Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. In that meeting did he ask for a lawyer? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I know Captain Fritz asked him if at one time, if--he +handed him a telegram--in fact. I believe it was sent by some attorney, +if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want +him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would +contact him at a later time. I do not recall what lawyer it was. It +seems like some lawyer in the East sent the telegram volunteering his +services to Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. That is there on Sunday morning, the 24th? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. In the course of this meeting which you have been +describing---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. He said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch +with this lawyer in New York City that represented the American Civil +Liberties Union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he +didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with +this man about it. + +Mr. BALL. Can you remember any other questions asked Oswald by Captain +Fritz? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No, not offhand; I would probably remember them if I +heard the questions but I do not remember offhand. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody talk to him about the post office box? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; Mr. Kelley asked him several questions and probably +Mr. Sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in +Shreveport--wherever it was. + +Mr. BALL. New Orleans? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. New Orleans, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Since you mentioned it, I do remember them talking to him +about the New Orleans box and asking him about this other name, this---- + +Mr. BALL. Alek Hidell? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; and he asked him if he knew Alek Hidell; said he +didn't know if he ever heard of the name. He never heard of that and +asked him several questions along that line and then after he had +denied all knowledge of Alek Hidell, Mr. Kelley asked him, said "Well, +isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card +with his name on it in your possession." He kind of grunted, said +"Yes, that's right" and he said "How do you explain that?" And, as best +my knowledge, he said "I don't explain it." + +Mr. BALL. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about +the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in Dallas but I do +not recall. I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his +exact denial was. + +Mr. BALL. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he +denied that he had bought a rifle? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I +would not swear to it. + +Mr. BALL. Was anything said about a revolver? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they asked him something about the revolver, +too, but I do not recall what it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession +at the time of his arrest? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall what the questions was along that line +or even what the answers was. Like I say, I am sure that they did. It +seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the +revolver but there, again. I would not want to say definitely. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat +in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was +arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him +to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups, +what-have-you. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on +Friday, the 22nd of November? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, no; not that I recall. He--I know he had a black +eye. I remember seeing that some time along the way but I do not recall +when I first noticed it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about his black eye? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he +received the black eye? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I remember at one time when they were moving him. +Of course, if you saw television that day, I am sure you saw what men +we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all +were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions +at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye. +He said "A cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some +unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him. + +Mr. BALL. As you would move Oswald through the halls on the third floor +from one room to another---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would +be from our office to the elevator which is some 20 feet. + +Mr. BALL. On those occasions would the hallway he crowded with +reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in +fact, I was plumb up to my chin with those people. + +Mr. STERN. How do you mean? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was disgusted with them. + +Mr. STERN. Would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a +particular place? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of +slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like +up there--about the same situation. + +Mr. BALL. I'm through. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Stern? + +Mr. STERN. There was just no response. You asked them to cooperate with +you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back +but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had +to hold them off physically. Of course, I realize I am not running +the police department but if I had been running it wouldn't have been +nobody up there; like I say, I was fed up. Fact of the business, one +time when I was trying to escort some witness out of there--I don't +recall who it was at this time--but I was trying to get them through +that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and I stopped +and I looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my +legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted. + +Mr. STERN. Was any consideration given to clearing the corridor? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. A lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of +course, I didn't have anything to do with it. + +Mr. STERN. Was it discussed? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I imagine just among the men up there. The officers +working in the bureau probably did. I don't know whether it was +discussed on a higher level or not. I have no knowledge of that. + +Mr. STERN. There were actually television cameras in the corridor? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, yes. + +Mr. STERN. Hand cameras or the large? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. They had the big camera set on a tripod right at the +entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full +view of the entire hallway. + +Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald and the way he handled +himself throughout this period? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Like I say, the only time that I had any connections with +Oswald was this Sunday morning. I never had occasion of hearing him +being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to +my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him +that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with +a lot better education than his formal education indicated. In other +words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the Cuba +deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school +education that he was reported to have had. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be in control of himself? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. In +fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was +enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way. + +Mr. STERN. He engaged in banter with you and the police officials? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question +him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always +had an answer. + +Mr. STERN. How about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from +the interrogations? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I did not indulge in any of that other than the one time +and, of course, if I made any comments to him at that time, I do not +remember what they were. + +Mr. STERN. How about comments he made to you? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I know--I think possibly at one time he--that morning +that I was bringing him down on Sunday morning that he may have asked +me where he was going or if he was going back to Captain Fritz' office +that morning, but aside from that, I do not recall anything else that +he may have said or anything that I may have said to him in the course +of the day. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall any complaints that he registered, any +statements he made about his treatment, or---- + +Mr. LEAVELLE. No. I don't think he made any to us that morning we were +moving him. + +Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telegram that arrived Sunday morning or +that was there Sunday morning about the offer? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I had occasion to see it. I do not recall what it was. I +think it is a matter of record somewhere. + +Mr. STERN. It was there at the Sunday morning interrogation? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; it was there and, in fact, I know the captain and I +talked about it there a minute before I went up and got him, talked +about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. I said "Why +not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it +himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups +at which you were present said that they had seen Oswald on television +before they got to the police headquarters? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I think it would have been impossible for anybody, +any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers. +Now, the others may have, I don't recall, but the others all came down +on the day of the assassination so I don't believe that they would +have, but I know Helen Markham would not have because she was taken +directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she +would not, and I do not believe Mr. Callaway and the Negro porter, Sam +Guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either. + +Mr. STERN. In any event, you do not recall it? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall, but I am not saying it would not have +happened. + +Mr. STERN. That's all I have. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have Officer Leavelle's reports on the +officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. It is marked +"Pages 216, 217, 218, 219, 220." It is a part of the formal report of +the Dallas Police Department concerning the assassination of President +Kennedy and Officer Leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the +shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you +to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature +and it will be written up and forwarded to the Commission without your +signature. How will you prefer? + +Mr. LEAVELLE. I see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out +like I put it down there. + +Mr. BALL. If you have confidence in the reporter you can waive +signature and we will send it on. + +Mr. LEAVELLE. All right. + +Mr. BALL. It is pages 216 through 220 of the formal report which is +included in this Exhibit A. Thank you very much, Mr. Leavelle. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF W. E. BARNES + +The testimony of W. E. Barnes was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 7, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BARNES. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to. + +Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer. + +Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David +Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about +a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been +with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the +past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here +in your city. + +Would you please state your name for the record. + +Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes? + +Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. BARNES. It is. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular department? + +Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the +identification bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes? + +Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Went to school here? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school? + +Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high +school? + +Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went +into the Merchant Marine Service. + +Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine? + +Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946? + +Mr. BARNES. 1947. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since? + +Mr. BARNES. I have been. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty? + +Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to---- + +Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting +of the President, where were you and what were you doing? + +Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental +appointment. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there? + +Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated. + +Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to +stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene? + +Mr. BELIN. You had two men? + +Mr. BARNES. At the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean? + +Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there? + +Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were? + +Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory? + +Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do? + +Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred? + +Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene? + +Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of +Tippit's car for fingerprints. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car? + +Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located? + +Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right +front fender. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the +vehicle for fingerprints? + +Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up +to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might +have placed his hands on there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there? + +Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography? + +Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this +work since August 1, 1956. + +Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb +equipment or not? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you +are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment? + +Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I +think it is necessary. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use? + +Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often +use? + +Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene? + +Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls +that was turned over to me. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings? + +Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene +by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not +sure about that. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that? + +Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it. + +Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe +that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search +section. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the +scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over? + +Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found +other than these two? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up? + +Mr. BARNES. I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out +to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what? + +Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it +up. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen? + +Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up? + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What +approximate location? + +Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there? + +Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle? + +Mr. BARNES. The what? + +Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out +there? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the +immediate vicinity of the car? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What was that? + +Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at +the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought +maybe that might have had some significance on the case. + +I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a +jacket was discarded by the suspect. + +Mr. BELIN. Where would that be? + +Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over. + +Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west? + +Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I +would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map? + +Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, +I will try and get. + +Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford. + +Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was +found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to +10th or Jefferson? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that +separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford. + +Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel? + +Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson? + +Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford. + +Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station +around there at all? + +Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of +station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but +there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket +was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found +just behind it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that +correct? + +Mr. BARNES. I did. + +(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.) + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which +we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the +deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not +the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by +you? + +Mr. BARNES. They were. + +Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture +of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile? + +Mr. BARNES. It was. + +Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene? + +Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40. + +Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon? + +Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures? + +Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards. + +Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that +the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that +the way that you found the car when you got there? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or +document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not? + +Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash +of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their +wanted persons names on. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been +made on this clipboard? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there? + +Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was. + +Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the +clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or +any memorandum paper on the board? + +Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes +Deposition Exhibit A? + +Mr. BARNES. What? + +Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might +be relevant? + +Mr. BARNES. Not that I know. + +Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is +Exhibit B? + +Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and +also blood on the street where Tippit fell. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on +Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit +fell? + +Mr. BARNES. (Circles.) + +Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes +Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried +to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the +car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you +could show us the general area where you found the smears? + +Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.] + +Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the +right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, +and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front +fender near where the headlight is. + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean? + +Mr. BARNES. Dirty. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way +affects your ability to lift fingerprints? + +Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting +a latent print. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints? + +Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found. + +Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been +removed? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think +is relevant? + +Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what +this is, please? + +Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by +Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene +where the squad car was. + +Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking +of any of these pictures by you? + +Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition +Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what +this is? + +Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car. + +Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly +to the south, is that right? + +Mr. BARNES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the +driver's side was up or down? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down. + +Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, +was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state +what this is? + +Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the +front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement +where Tippit fell. + +Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit +fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer? + +Mr. BARNES. It does. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition +Exhibit E that you want to discuss now? + +Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing]. + +Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is +that correct? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of? + +Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also +a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition +Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with +the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask +you to make copies of these. + +Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is +that correct? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos. +Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there +appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that +appear to show that they were examined or identified by you? + +Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of +Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified. + +Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case +hulls, is that correct? + +Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber. + +Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can +identify it that way? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, +did you identify out there? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain +Doughty received the third. + +Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you +put this identification mark on the inside of? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark? + +Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen. + +Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75? + +Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in +there too. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the +slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the +pistol? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there +anything else that you did out at the crime scene? + +Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and +Q-75? + +Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over +to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that +took them. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant +with regard to your work at the Tippit scene? + +Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there? + +Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got +through. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that? + +Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day? + +Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation +of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any +other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time +of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BARNES. I did. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you do those? + +Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I +finished with the Tippit car pictures. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my +question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you +took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. +Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton? + +Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the +spot where you say this jacket was found? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th +and Patton and the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found. + +Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the +person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the +theatre? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre? + +Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember? + +Mr. BARNES. The lobby and the place where the arrest was made. + +Mr. BELIN. It was after that that you then went to investigate that +major automobile accident? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now after you investigated or took pictures at this major +automobile accident, then what did you do? + +Mr. BARNES. I returned to the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you returned to the city hall? + +Mr. BARNES. We started working out the evidence and developing +negatives of all the photos that were taken at the Kennedy +assassination site and also at the Tippit site. + +Mr. BELIN. Who were you working with at that time? + +Mr. BARNES. We had just about all the manpower of the crime scene +search section working. + +Lt. J. C. Day, myself, Detective R. L. Studebaker, Detective J. B. +Hicks, and Detective R. W. Livingston. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know about what time of the day you were doing this? + +Mr. BARNES. We started on it, I would say, roughly after I returned to +the city hall. It was getting close to 4 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was this work done? + +Mr. BARNES. In the crime scene search section of the identification +bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. On what floor is that? + +Mr. BARNES. It is on the fourth floor of the city hall. + +Mr. BELIN. On the fourth floor, were there any people other than police +personnel? + +Mr. BARNES. Not where we were; no. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got there, did you see what the situation was on +the third floor? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; we could. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the situation on the third floor? + +Mr. BARNES. Turmoil of news media, photographers. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by turmoil? + +Mr. BARNES. Well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where +they could get a shot. + +Mr. BELIN. By a shot, you mean a picture? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; a photo. Any photos they might get for the newspapers. + +In case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. I +presume that is what they were there for. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald on the third floor at the time? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they have wires coming through the windows for +television cameras, or not? + +Mr. BARNES. There was wires running all over the city hall; cables. + +Mr. BELIN. Cables? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What about stands for lights, were they there, too? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right, they come up with lights and also TV cameras +to cover. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say city hall, really the third floor that we are +talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that +correct? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, do you have any estimate of the number of +newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be a guess. I wouldn't want to venture to guess, +because it would be just strictly guesswork. + +Mr. BELIN. More than 20? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. More than 50? + +Mr. BARNES. I am not saying. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, you were working on the fourth +floor? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? + +Mr. BARNES. Later we went to the third floor, to the office of Captain +Fritz. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you go to Captain Fritz' office for? + +Mr. BARNES. To make a paraffin test of Lee Harvey Oswald's hand. + +Mr. BELIN. About when would this have been, approximately, if you know? + +Mr. BARNES. I tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was +after I returned to the city hall, and after 6 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime after 6 o'clock? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz call you up and tell you to come down and +make the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. He didn't talk to me. I was advised to go to that office to +help make the paraffin test. + +Mr. BELIN. By your supervisor? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? + +Mr. BARNES. Lt. J. C. Day. + +Mr. BELIN. Now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a +paraffin test, to go to an office such as Captain Fritz' office to do +it? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What would the usual procedure be? + +Mr. BARNES. If he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be to bring them up to the fourth floor? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. This would have necessitated, I would assume, moving the +prisoner from Captain Fritz' office through the hallway up to the +fourth floor? + +Mr. BARNES. It would. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did +anyone tell you why? + +Mr. BARNES. Well---- + +Mr. BELIN. That is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin +test down in Captain Fritz' office rather than in your laboratory? + +Mr. BARNES. No, sir; nobody said anything to me about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as +taking the prisoner up to your office from Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; you would have to take him through the throng of +newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether this might have presented a +security problem in any way? + +Mr. BARNES. It would. + +Mr. BELIN. What equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. I took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which +consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this your permanent equipment or your portable +equipment? When I say your permanent, I mean your inplace equipment? + +Mr. BARNES. It is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working +under makeshift conditions. + +Mr. BELIN. When you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"---- + +Mr. BARNES. Just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on. +We have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section +which makes it handier to work with. + +Mr. BELIN. Would the quality of the test be the same? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I think so. The quality would be the same, just takes +a little more time and inconvenience. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got down there, what did you do and see? First of +all, who was in the room? + +Mr. BARNES. Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that L-e-a-v-e-l-l-e? + +Mr. BARNES. Right. And Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any discussion, or did you hear Lee Harvey +Oswald say anything or anyone say anything to Lee Harvey Oswald while +you were there? + +Mr. BARNES. No conversation. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. BARNES. We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and +while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a +paraffin cast of his hand. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say to that? + +Mr. BARNES. It was okay with him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about +the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. None other than he stated to me, "What are you trying to +do, prove that I fired a gun?" + +And I said, "I am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. We have +the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the +city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it." + +Mr. BELIN. What is the purpose of a paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your +hands. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin +tests? + +Mr. BARNES. Since 1956. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the procedure by which you determine whether or not +there are any nitrates on one's hand? + +Mr. BARNES. The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their +personnel. + +Mr. BELIN. Do they analyze the wax? + +Mr. BARNES. They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after the +casts are made. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test +on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my +hands? + +Mr. BARNES. It wouldn't be hot wax. It would have to be at a degree +where it would be melted. Take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it +into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall, +and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and +back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick. + +Then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for +reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to +reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of +paraffin. In fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to +round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin +from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down +each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove. + +Mr. BELIN. You would make two cuts then, one along the side of the +little finger and one along the side of the thumb? + +Mr. BARNES. Well, really it is a =V=-cut on the thumb and forefinger, +and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger. + +Mr. BELIN. On the side of the palm of the hand? + +Mr. BARNES. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you done any reading as to what this test shows and +what its limitations are at all? + +Mr. BARNES. Well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated +paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to +be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there. + +This paraffin that you place on the hand--I will rephrase this a little +bit. + +When you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on +your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove +the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the +hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the +paraffin. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you say nitrates, I believe you used the word +"residue"? + +Mr. BARNES. Powder residue and nitrates. + +Mr. BELIN. Is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue? + +Mr. BARNES. That is what they call the dermal nitrate test, I believe +is the correct name that they give it. + +Mr. BELIN. Does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of +nitrate compound? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. If I were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate +on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. It should, unless it is awful tight. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by "awful tight"? + +Mr. BARNES. You could have an automatic which very easily could keep +you from having nitrate on your hands. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let's assume that we were taking a .38 caliber pistol. +You have seen the pistol which Lee Harvey Oswald had in his possession +at the time he was apprehended. + +Let's assume I were firing that pistol. Would it leave some residue on +my hand? + +Mr. BARNES. It should. + +Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were to wash my hands between the time I fired it +and the time you took the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. It would hurt the test. + +Mr. BELIN. It would cut down the test? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now if I were firing it, would it necessarily show on both +hands? Suppose I were right-handed? + +Mr. BARNES. Depends on the location of your left hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, generally from your experience, is there any +particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he +is firing a pistol? + +Mr. BARNES. Police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the +pistol handle. + +Mr. BELIN. As an element of controlling it? + +Mr. BARNES. As an element of controlling, and also an element which, if +you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left +hand to take the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. If you keep it near then, I assume that you would get the +nitrate on the other hand, too, or not? + +Mr. BARNES. Very likely that you would. + +Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge +case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where +the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my +hand? + +Mr. BARNES. It is possible. + +Mr. BELIN. Suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find +no nitrate deposits at all. Would you say that this conclusively shows +that I did not fire a pistol? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, does it conclusively show I had not fired a pistol +within the last 6 or 8 or 10 hours? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that? + +Mr. BARNES. Well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it were a .38 caliber pistol? + +Mr. BARNES. Then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands +or whether you had had gloves on. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose I were to tell you I didn't have gloves on. + +Mr. BARNES. Had you washed your hands? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, would this make much of a difference? + +Mr. BARNES. Washing your hands would make a difference. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing +a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or +semiautomatic. Would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands +that a paraffin test would show? + +Mr. BARNES. Chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a +revolver. + +Mr. BELIN. Why? + +Mr. BARNES. Because your chamber is enclosed. + +Mr. BELIN. What difference does that make? + +Mr. BARNES. The powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the +cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a +revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all +the way around. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a +difference about letting the gas or residue escape? + +Mr. BARNES. No; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel. +It is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. There is +no pressure there. + +Mr. BELIN. What you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the +time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of +this residue? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. If you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's +hands, and by positive, I mean it would show the presence of nitrate, +would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the +person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a .38 caliber +revolver, or a bolt-action rifle? + +I mean a nonautomatic revolver? + +Mr. BARNES. Let me get your question to see if I am correct. If there +were nitrates present? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BARNES. In my own mind would I come to the conclusion that it would +probably come from a revolver? Rather than a rifle? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. Which +would be more likely? + +Mr. BARNES. The revolver would be more likely. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands. +Do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; we do. + +Mr. BELIN. When you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any +other part of the body other than the hands? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. In this case, did you take it of any other portion of the +body other than the hands? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What other portion of the body did you take it of? + +Mr. BARNES. The right side of his cheek and face. + +Mr. BELIN. The right side of Lee Harvey Oswald's cheek and face? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Who directed you to take it there? + +Mr. BARNES. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there? + +Mr. BARNES. I didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. I was ordered +to take it from him, and I took it because I had the order to take the +test. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests? + +Mr. BARNES. Since 1956. + +Mr. BELIN. Roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an +average? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. If I hit it lucky, I won't make +too many. If it hits on some other man's duty. It would be hard to say +how many I have made over a period of time. I can say that I have made +many. + +Mr. BELIN. Over these years, do you think you have made as many as 100? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. I am not going to go into any +actual figures because it would be guesswork. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. Of the paraffin tests that you +have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks? + +Mr. BARNES. One. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that with Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. BARNES. It was. + +Mr. BELIN. Other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of +anyone's cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you might not have in any other +case? + +Mr. BARNES. It has never been requested of me before. + +Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information about the science of +paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or +not a common practice to make it of one cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. It is not a common practice. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you +can think of or know of? + +Mr. BARNES. Firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, I would say +the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue +wouldn't reach his cheek? + +Mr. BELIN. What about a rifle? + +Mr. BARNES. Firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel +metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before? + +Mr. BARNES. Many times. + +Mr. BELIN. How close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be +looking through the sight of the gun. + +Mr. BARNES. Be several inches to the rear of the chamber. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all? + +Mr. BARNES. It sure would. + +Mr. BELIN. What about telescopic sights? Would that push your face back +further or not? + +Mr. BARNES. Push it even further back. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have an effect on the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. The further you get from the chamber, the less possibility +of getting powder residue on it would be. + +Mr. BELIN. When you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also +paint it on with this brush that you are talking about? + +Mr. BARNES. I did. + +Mr. BELIN. To about a quarter of an inch thickness? + +Mr. BARNES. Not quite that much. + +Mr. BELIN. When you put the gauze on? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And you put some more paraffin on? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you cool it with water, or let it +naturally harden by room temperature? + +Mr. BARNES. Nature cools it from room temperature. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you removed it from the cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with these paraffin tests after you made +them? + +Mr. BARNES. I placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BARNES. I walked out of Captain Fritz' office, and I had a couple +of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that +I could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the +fourth floor, the ID bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. The news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at +that time? + +Mr. BARNES. I would say it was pretty well jammed. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time of the night was this? + +Mr. BARNES. Approximately 9 o'clock, I would say, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald say anything to you as you were +removing these casts, that you remember? + +Mr. BARNES. Very little, other than what I repeated to you before, that +he knew what I was trying to do, and that I was wasting my time, that +he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald leave Captain Fritz' office at that +time or did he stay there? + +Mr. BARNES. I didn't go back, I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. BELIN. He didn't come out with you, did he? + +Mr. BARNES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the +people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office? +Questions or remarks or what have you? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did they say? + +Mr. BARNES. They kept storming questions at me, "What have you got in +that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media +to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?" + +Mr. BELIN. Would this just come from one person? + +Mr. BARNES. All of them. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many of them were there at that time? + +Mr. BARNES. They had the hallways blocked. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you reply to them at all or not? + +Mr. BARNES. I didn't answer. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that +correct? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. BARNES. I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our +locked evidence room. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did they go after that? + +Mr. BARNES. They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that city-county laboratory? + +Mr. BARNES. At Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know when they went there? + +Mr. BARNES. The following morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you get the results from this analysis at all? + +Mr. BARNES. The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn't get the +results. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what these results were? + +Mr. BARNES. I understand--I haven't seen them personally--but I +understand they are positive, the ones of his hands. + +Mr. BELIN. By positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates? + +Mr. BARNES. They showed the presence of nitrates. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. The one of his cheek was negative. + +Mr. BELIN. Were any conclusions made because of either the positive +results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test +of the cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. In my own mind, I didn't expect any positive report from +the cheek to start with. But to cut down criticism and to satisfy the +public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well, +we did it for possibly any future--I don't know how to word it--any +complaints that might come later on. + +Mr. BELIN. By complaints, you mean people that might---- + +Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on +something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done +the best that we knew how. + +Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results? + +Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it. + +From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in +shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle +has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you +fired a rifle? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I have not. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek +after that person fired a rifle? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin +test I ever made of a cheek. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test? +Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a +rifle by making a cast of the cheek? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion +are your own personal reasons? + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed +chamber, is that it? + +Mr. BARNES. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under +pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a +shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad +pressure? + +Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel. +There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot +is fired. + +Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the +trigger, is the back of the chamber open then? + +Mr. BARNES. It is open. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us +with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you +can think of, whether or not I have asked it? + +Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything. + +Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know. + +Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common. + +Mr. BARNES. Still live there. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other +evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin +that you made? + +Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you do this? + +Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am +sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test. + +Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards? + +Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when +we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just +what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation---- + +Mr. BARNES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or +did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here? + +Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no +one. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print? + +Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison +purposes. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts? + +Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered +the paraffin tests upstairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print +in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory? + +Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them +coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald +wasn't brought up to your identification bureau? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What? + +Mr. BARNES. Security. + +Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall? + +Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee +Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down +the hallway to Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all +kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much +longer is it going to take, and what have you proved. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain +Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain +Fritz' office when you came back? + +Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective +Dhority and Detective Leavelle. + +Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present? + +Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time? + +Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints +of his hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that? + +Mr. BARNES. Cooperative. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the +taking of any palm prints? + +Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or +not? + +Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint +card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's +signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he +wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney +when you took the paraffin test? + +Mr. BARNES. None to me. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the +fingerprint card? + +Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take +fingerprints? + +Mr. BARNES. We took both. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that? + +Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then +we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place +the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint +card. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before? + +Mr. BARNES. Many times. + +Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as +to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a +person? + +Mr. BARNES. Just as good as fingerprints The only thing that I could +add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where +with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go +look them up. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can offer with reference +to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer +Tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests +that you took? + +Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of right now, other than printing +pictures of both killings. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Lee Oswald said other +than the fact he would not sign his name to the card? + +Mr. BARNES. He had very little to say. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have +asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation +here? + +Mr. BARNES. Not that I can think of at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Now were you on duty on Sunday morning, November 24? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I was not. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any general comment among the police officers, +what I call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the +police headquarters building during this period of time? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; we discussed it. + +Mr. BELIN. Without mentioning any names which might embarrass any +individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the +general nature or tenor of that discussion? + +Mr. BARNES. Disgusted. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; there were. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the +press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police +department? + +Mr. BARNES. It would be just like you carrying on your work in your +office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as +that is concerned. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there people other than newspapermen generally in the +police headquarters? + +Mr. BARNES. It is hard to tell just who was who. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you were not there at the time of the shooting of Lee +Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, were you? + +Mr. BARNES. No; I was not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the television showing of the film that ran +during the--during that time? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. You have had some experience, you said earlier, as a +photographer, I believe, is that correct? + +Mr. BARNES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light +such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the +fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the +ability of officers protecting Lee Harvey Oswald to discern movements +of people? + +Mr. BARNES. Very much. + +Mr. BELIN. In what way? + +Mr. BARNES. Blinding them. The flash from the many cameras that were +present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your TV +cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding +any prisoner. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of with reference to +the security matters of Lee Harvey Oswald that might be relevant here +other than your statements about the press and the problems of light? + +Mr. BARNES. Other than the movement of him with the throngs of press +men, which the security I thought was very good. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of right now? + +Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of at this time. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add in this +deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant? + +Mr. BARNES. I think this pretty well covers it. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in +coming down here, sergeant. + +Mr. BARNES. I am glad to come. Hate to come under these circumstances. + +Mr. BELIN. We hate to be here under these circumstances. It is not a +pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. All +right, sir. + +I forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your +deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the +court reporter send it to us in Washington. + +Mr. BARNES. I believe I will come back and let her show it to me, and I +will sign it then. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF J. B. HICKS + +The testimony of J. B. Hicks was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. +Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. + +(Witness complying.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. HICKS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, and your address? + +Mr. HICKS. J. B. Hicks, 4318 Matilda, Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HICKS. I am with the police department, city of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. You are with the special section of the department? + +Mr. HICKS. The identification bureau; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the identification bureau? + +Mr. HICKS. Let's see, about, a little over 7 years now. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me about yourself--where you were born. + +Mr. HICKS. I was born in Irving, Tex., which is a suburb out here of +Dallas, September 29, 1918. + +Mr. BALL. What was your education? + +Mr. HICKS. I finished high school, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HICKS. Then--you mean where I went to work and from there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. HICKS. I worked a short while for Sanger Bros., I believe 3 or 4 +months or so, then I was employed by Higgenbotham-Bailey Logan Co. +which is a wholesale company here in Dallas; from there I went to work +with the police department where I have been for a little over 22 years +now. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do with the crime lab? + +Mr. HICKS. I do the usual, oh, photography work, fingerprint +comparisons, darkroom work and anything that might come under the crime +lab; the crime scene, search duties. + +Mr. BALL. You work under Lieutenant Day? + +Mr. HICKS. I work under Lieutenant Day; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I was off duty that day. + +Mr. BALL. But you were called back to duty? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day? + +Mr. HICKS. I had--my wife, I believe it was called me from her work. +She had heard of the happening and knowing that I was off, of course, +she figured I would be called, so when she called me, I called in to +Lieutenant Knight, who is also in the identification bureau, and told +him that I was getting ready and if they needed me to report, to call +me and tell me where to go to, and so he did. Oh, I don't know exactly +how long it had taken place and the exact time that he did call me. The +time right there, I can't recall. I know I did get to work somewhere +around 3. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work, at the crime lab? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; they told me to report directly to Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down there? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you went down there what did you find? + +Mr. HICKS. Lieutenant Day--well, first I saw Chief Lumpkin, who told +me Lieutenant Day was there in the building and to report to him on +the sixth floor, I believe it was and he and Detective Studebaker, I +believe it was were the two that were still on that particular floor. + +Mr. BALL. Day and Studebaker? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do some work with them? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes; there was--well, no. Lieutenant Day was dusting several +items around there for fingerprints at the time and Mr. Studebaker +had taken some pictures and was still taking a few others. I assisted +him in moving the equipment back and forth and I don't know, I don't +believe I actually took any of the pictures upstairs; however, I was +there when some of them were taken. + +Mr. BALL. There were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor, +weren't there? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes; I am not sure; I believe they had already been picked +up and removed when I arrived. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked them up? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't know off hand. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later see them in your laboratory? + +Mr. HICKS. I believe I saw one of the particular ones there that night. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine it? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. I think Lieutenant Day had all of them. + +Mr. BALL. Do you do ballistics work in your laboratory? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any +of the guns there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do any identification work on either the +assassination of President Kennedy or the investigation of Tippit's +murder? + +Mr. HICKS. Do you mean as far as fingerprints? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; and things of that sort. + +Mr. HICKS. Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him +that night some time. I do not recall. + +Mr. BALL. 9 o'clock or so? + +Mr. HICKS. It was some time in that area. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you took the prints? + +Mr. HICKS. I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made +those on an inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people +without the black ink that they make for the records. + +Mr. BALL. What else did you do there? + +Mr. HICKS. I was one of the two who made the paraffin cast on Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. You and who else? + +Mr. HICKS. Sergeant Barnes. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever done that before, the paraffin cast? + +Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as +the making of them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you test the paraffin cast; did you make any test on it? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which +Lieutenant Alexander, I believe is in charge there. + +Mr. BALL. But you did not do it yourself? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How +accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a +firearm previously? + +Mr. HICKS. My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact +conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything +containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort. + +Mr. BALL. Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a +rifle has been fired? + +Mr. HICKS. That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a +paraffin test on a person's face. + +Mr. BALL. You never made one before? + +Mr. HICKS. Never before. + +Mr. BALL. The other tests were always on the hands? + +Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some reason for that? + +Mr. HICKS. I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where +anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On +other occasions they were only interested in the hand. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation? + +Mr. HICKS. I don't recall anything outstanding that I did in the +investigation further there. Now, I know we were all pretty well busy +there until about 2 or 2:30 in the morning but most of it was, I would +imagine regular officework and just back and forth if someone had +asked did we get a picture of this and picture of that; well, I can't +recall any other particular item that I might have done. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present when Oswald was arraigned in the +identification bureau? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I left just a few minutes before that, I understand. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave; do you know? + +Mr. HICKS. I left it was shortly after 2. I don't know the exact time, +maybe 2:15. + +Mr. BALL. You think he was arraigned after you left? + +Mr. HICKS. I am rather certain that he was because I believe I would +have known about it had he been arraigned before I left because there +is only one door in our office to go out and had any other group been +there, I would have noticed it, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald any? + +Mr. HICKS. I only asked him his name when I made his fingerprints and I +did not question him or go to any details on talking to him. + +Mr. BALL. You were not present at any showups of Oswald? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any fingerprint study in this case or palmprint +study? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir--any comparisons to the prints that we had? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. You did not compare the prints you took of Oswald with +any specimen that might have been taken from the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken +from the Texas School Book Depository building? + +Mr. HICKS. Paper bag? + +Mr. BALL. Paper bag. + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken +bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up. + +Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; +did you ever see it? + +Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it. + +Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks. + +Mr. HICKS. All right. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for signature if +you want, or you can waive signature; which do you prefer? + +Mr. HICKS. Well, when would I have to come back to sign this? + +Mr. BALL. Probably next week sometime. + +Mr. HICKS. Well, that will be all right. + +Mr. BALL. Suit yourself, either way. If you want to waive signature +it's all right with us or if you want to come back. + +Mr. HICKS. I will come back. + +Mr. BALL. All right, she will notify you. Thanks very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES + +The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 4 p.m., on April 2, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HOLMES. I do, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Holmes? + +Mr. HOLMES. 1711 McManus, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HOLMES. Postal inspector. + +Mr. BELIN. For the U.S. Post Office Department? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. HOLMES. I am 57. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your educational background? Did you go to high +school here? + +Mr. HOLMES. I graduated from high school in Kansas City, and went +2 years to William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo., and went almost +through my third year in Kansas City. Went to dental college in Kansas +City. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HOLMES. Well, all that time I was working in the post office as a +clerk, and about that time the war broke out and I went into the Postal +Inspection Service in April 1942, and have been a postal inspector ever +since. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you been in Dallas ever since then? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; I came here July 1, 1948. I have been here ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That +is the day of the assassination? + +Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal +annex building, located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets, +Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Houston and Commerce Streets in Dallas. Now, where is +Commerce with relation to Elm? + +Mr. HOLMES. Commerce, Main, Elm--two blocks. + +Mr. BELIN. So Commerce would be two blocks south of Elm? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. On what corner is your building? + +Mr. HOLMES. It is on the northeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. The northeast corner? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; well, now, wait a minute. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean the building itself. + +Mr. HOLMES. This is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass, +comes down like this, and this is Elm, and this is Main, and this is +Commerce, and my building is right here. Right here is the School Book. + +Mr. BELIN. This is north? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; that is "cattywampus." This would be the southwest +corner. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You have now corrected your testimony by drawing +a diagram. What corner is this? + +Mr. HOLMES. Southwest. + +Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building is your office where you were +sitting? + +Mr. HOLMES. On the north side. + +Mr. BELIN. From your office looking north, what building would you see? + +Mr. HOLMES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. And I am on the +fifth floor of my building. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was +coming down Main Street? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the motorcade turn from Main onto Houston? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. What direction did it turn on Houston? + +Mr. HOLMES. It turned north on Houston to Elm, and then turned left on +Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. To go down to the triple underpass? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if +you have any estimate on it? + +Mr. HOLMES. I would say 15 miles an hour. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you describe what you saw and heard then? + +Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting +on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor +Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the +middle seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument? + +Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7-1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were +acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not +standing up. This is a short block. + +Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm? + +Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the +motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on +Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple +underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard +what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that +there were three of them. + +I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the +time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging +somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but +I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the dust? + +Mr. HOLMES. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one +of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that +elapsed between each of the three sounds? + +Mr. HOLMES. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. +Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or +something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than +20 seconds? + +Mr. HOLMES. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and +kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to +that. I have tried to recall it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or +between the second and third? + +Mr. HOLMES. I couldn't tell you that. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see after that? + +Mr. HOLMES. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as +this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to +a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the +turtleback of this Presidential car and was almost off of the back of +the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and I +never--I got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him +on the bumper. + +I got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back +in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. It was so quick +that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. There was +several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over +this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the Secret +Service man or the Secret Service man was trying to get her back in the +car, and this was our impression. + +Policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and +with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. I saw many people +down on the ground, and I have one particular couple in mind that I had +watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman +down. I remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a +gun away from her, or something, and by that time I decided maybe there +was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers. + +He had her down on the ground. But then it later developed that he was +trying to protect her from the shots. But then I didn't know that at +the time. And I did watch her as they got up. Then different people hid +around behind pillars in this arbor. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? + +Mr. HOLMES. Then just people went from every direction hunting around +the railroad yard and among the cars parked in the area. I saw a +policeman rushing into the School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this a motorcycle policemen? + +Mr. HOLMES. I did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or +two or three--with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms +rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. And I thought maybe they +might have been shooting to frighten the people. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the noise sound like it came from? + +Mr. HOLMES. It reverberated among the buildings and I couldn't tell +you. It sounded like from the crowd over there. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else happen that afternoon that you think is +important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is +concerned? + +Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with +my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad +tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they +were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole +area. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes. + +Now, what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the +assassination or the investigation? + +Mr. HOLMES. I never quit. I didn't get to bed for 2 days. + +Mr. BELIN. Tell us what you did that you feel might be important that +we should record here. + +Mr. HOLMES. Of course I was in contact with the chief inspector in +Washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and I remember once +he called and he said, "Well, now, could the shots have come from the +terminal annex building. Has your office been shaken out, the annex." +Of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature +there of any importance. I was doing all I could to help other agencies. + +One of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the +radio reports came in about the apprehension of Lee Oswald following +the shooting of Officer Tippit, and said, "I think you ought to know, +Mr. Holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a Lee Oswald recently, +and it is box number so-and-so". + +That was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal +annex. That box is No. 6225. + +Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked as Holmes Deposition +Exhibit No. 1. I will ask you to state what this is. + +Mr. HOLMES. That is a photo copy of the original box rental application +completed by Lee H. Oswald covering box No. 6225, which he completed on +November the 1st, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice over here in--a notation on the side 11-22-63, with +some initials on it. Do you know what that is? + +Mr. HOLMES. Those are my initials and they indicate that I took the +original box application from the post office records on that date. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it? + +Mr. HOLMES. I turned it over to an FBI agent at a later date. I don't +know when. + +Mr. BELIN. Did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing +with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't +identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could +not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because +I have talked to him about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or +the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American +Civil Liberties Union," is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through +there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the +residential address when he rented the box. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of +November 1, 1963? + +Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this +thing out himself. + +Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp, +that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box +number is written in as "6225". + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box +than there is for anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on +December 31. + +Mr. BELIN. What year? + +Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any +surveillance on it? + +Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about +well into Sunday, I think, 3 days. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records, +for the box? + +Mr. HOLMES. One. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When was that? + +Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department? + +Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had +taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have +numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is +this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers, +and it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key +number? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition +Exhibit 1 here? + +Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in +that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. +No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the +"Daily Worker," now. + +Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American +newspaper? + +Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a +couple of Russian newspapers came there. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in +Russia. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this +application that you care to talk about? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with +pertaining to the assassination? + +Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning---- + +Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23? + +Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex, +and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent +had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post +office money order. + +He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington, +but would have to know the number of the post office money order. + +So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number. + +So I knew about the post office money order. They said that +Oswald--they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the +information that, I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI +after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information +that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make +and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, +that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information +that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had +been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from +Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I +immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records +with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to +buy this gun. + +I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, +Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute, +let's back up. + +I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on +outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that +I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did. + +Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine? + +Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963? + +Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack. + +Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this +magazine? Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2. + +Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes +Deposition Exhibit 2." + +Was that the page you tore out? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns +identified on that page. + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I see one circled in red, is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red? + +Mr. HOLMES. I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope +on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And +underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. +Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready +for shooting. Turned-down bolt 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is +marked "$12.78." + +Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95. + +Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And +underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x-3/4" +diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is +a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. It is marked "Klein's +Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois," +then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash +customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise +specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order ... $1.50 +on shotgun and rifles." + +Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for +putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the +$19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, +and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for +postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45. + +I thought you said the FBI said $21.95? + +Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been +looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago +office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting +Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun +in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order. + +Mr. BELIN. So what happened? + +Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of +Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was +$21.95--$21.45--excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received +this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for +March 20. + +So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this +money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the +number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one. + +I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th +because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have +gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within +10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that +amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order +in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as +this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had +been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. To whom? + +Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in. + +Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is +purchased--purchasing---- + +Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get---- + +Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number +there. When was that? + +Mr. HOLMES. Just now? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office +before he went to New Orleans? + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State? + +Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing +information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this +inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you +when I first realized he had this box. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked "Holmes Deposition Exhibit +3," and ask you to state what that is? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is a photostatic copy of the original box rental +application covering the rental of box 2915, at the main post office +in Dallas, Tex., which shows that it was completed on October the +9th, 1962. The applicants name was Lee H. Oswald, home address, 3519 +Fairmore Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Signed Lee H. Oswald. It shows that the +box was closed on May 14, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, it is stamped date box opened, October 9, 1962. And +that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at +the bottom of it. + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you found this postal money order and then +what did you do? + +Mr. HOLMES. Off the record, let me ask you something. I questioned him +about this box and all the angles with it during this interview. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. + +Mr. HOLMES. I didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called +Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money +order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief +inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at +Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out +this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out +the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special +conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington +now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I +asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been +issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the +correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct +money order or not. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you know about the use of the name A. J. Hidell? + +Mr. HOLMES. When the box was opened in the name of Lee H. Oswald. +Because for two reasons. I--one is, when he rented the post office box +in New Orleans, he used the name of A. J. Hidell as one of the persons +entitled to receive mail in that box. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time did you know about that? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what else? + +Mr. HOLMES. In his billfold the police had found a draft registration +card in the name of A. J. Hidell on his person at the time of his +arrest, and I had seen it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else now about this money order? Do you have a +record of the number of the money order? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what was the next thing you did in connection +with the investigation of the assassination? + +Mr. HOLMES. Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of +addresses as bits of information to the FBI and the Secret Service, and +sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about Sunday morning about +9:20---- + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon me a second. (Discussion off the record.) Anything +else now, Mr Holmes? + +Mr. HOLMES. I might cover the record of his rental of the post office +box in New Orleans. Do you want me to go into that? + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. HOLMES. The box rental records at New Orleans show that on June the +3d, 1963, post office box 30061 was rented to L. H. Oswald. Let me see +there. Some of my information comes at times I see 30061 and at times I +see 30016. I had it two places. One is a written memorandum on that new +setup, and the other is what I took over the phone, and both of them +show 61. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. HOLMES. I think I got a copy. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all right, you can go ahead. + +Mr. HOLMES. This is at the Lafayette Square Station in New Orleans. At +that time he showed his home address as 657 French Street, New Orleans. +On this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to +also receive mail in the box, Marina Oswald, and A. J. Hidell. This box +was closed on September 26, 1963, with instructions to forward mail +addressed to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. + +At the time this information was checked out in New Orleans by Postal +Inspector Joe Zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "The Militant," +were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. But there was +a slipup. I hate to admit that. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. I presume my next part in connection with this was when I +joined the interrogation period of Oswald on Sunday morning of November +24 at about 9:30 a.m. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the +occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be +there? + +Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous +occasions during this 2-1/2-day period. + +On this morning I had no appointment. I actually started to church with +my wife. I got to church and I said, "You get out, I am going down and +see if I can do something for Captain Fritz. I imagine he is as sleepy +as I am." + +So I drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as +I did, Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready +to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the +county jail. Would you like to join us?" + +I said "I would." + +We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present +were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V. +Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley, +inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three +detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding +Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have +a written memorandum there of that interview? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make +your written memorandum? + +Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your +recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people +there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by +section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on +Sunday morning? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on +that? I wonder perhaps what we might do is, I am going to see if I have +a copy of this, and if I can, to attach just as a--is this an extra +copy that you have here? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I guess you can. Let me tear that top off. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to mark this as "Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. +4." This is a memorandum of your interview? + +Mr. HOLMES. That I dictated on December 17, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. That is about 4 weeks after the interview took place; is +that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview? + +Mr. HOLMES. I had a few notes. I had no reason for such a statement +except that about that time the FBI asked me--they learned that I +had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if I would object to +giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my +statement. Part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice--well, you might just, without even looking at +the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went +on there. + +Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality to the interrogation. One man would +question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of +thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal +questioning or interrogation. + +Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he +wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that +he didn't want to answer. + +And those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything +that pertained with the assassination of the President or the shooting +of Officer Tippit. He flatly denied any knowledge of either. + +He was not particularly obnoxious. He seemed to be intelligent. He +seemed to be clearminded. He seemed to have a good memory, because in +questioning him about the boxes, which I had original applications +in front of me, he was pretty accurate. He knew box numbers and he +answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as +verified by the box rental applications that I had in front of me. + +Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him? + +Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair +of trousers. + +Mr. BELIN. What color trousers? + +Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. What color shirt? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not +outstanding. I don't know what color actually he had on. I do know, I +can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that. + +Mr. BELIN. He put on a black sweater? + +Mr. HOLMES. Toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember Captain Fritz showing a map, showing +Oswald a map of the city of Dallas which had been recovered from his +room? + +Mr. HOLMES. He didn't show the map. He only mentioned the map and asked +him about a certain map that had markings on it, and Oswald said, +"Well, I presume you have reference to a map that I had in my room that +had some X's on it." + +And, he said, "Well, tell us about that one. Why were the X's on there? +What did that designate?" + +And he said that, "I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. +I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. And I had my +applications in with Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me +names and addresses of places that had openings like I might could +fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I +might could get. I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on +this map so that I could plan my itinerary around with less walking, +and each one of those represented a place where I went and interviewed +for a job." + +And he said, "You can check each one of them out if you want to." + +Then Captain Fritz mentioned the X at the intersection of Elm and +Houston. + +Well, he said, "That is the location of the Texas School Depository and +I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got a job there." He +said, "That is all the map amounts to." + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about that aspect of the +interrogation? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember Inspector Kelley asking Oswald about his +religious views? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Someone, and I don't recall who, asked the first +question on that, but you got that Lenin business in there. + +Mr. BELIN. I am deliberately asking you these questions before we get +to your memorandum, and I am just trying to get your memory first. + +Mr. HOLMES. All right. Someone asked him about what his beliefs were, +and he said, "Well," about him being a Communist something. Someone +referred to his communism, and he said, "I am not a Communist. I am a +Marxist." And they said, what is the difference between Communist and +Marxist, and he said, "Well, a Communist is a Lenin Marxist, and I am a +true Karl Marxist." + +So, this Secret Service inspector asked, "What religion are you?" In +other words, I mean, "What faith are you, as far as religion?" And he +said, "I have no faith." And then he said, "I suppose you mean the +Bible." + +"Yes, that is right." + +"Well," he said, "I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but +not very interesting. But, as a matter of fact, I am a student of +philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or +intelligent philosophy. I don't think much of it," he said. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone there ask him if Cuba would be better off since +the President was assassinated? Do you remember anything about that? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall a question on that. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anyone asking him a question about the +rifle, or there was a picture of Oswald holding a rifle. Do you +remember anything about that? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you +holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him +about this rifle that came to this post office box. + +They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No." + +Well, "Have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the Marines?" + +He said, "No." Then he backed up and said, "Well, possibly a small +bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine +Corps." + +"Do you own a rifle?" + +"Absolutely not. How would I afford a rifle. I make $1.25 an hour. I +can't hardly feed myself." + +Then he said, "What about this picture of you holding this rifle?" + +"Well, I don't know what you are talking about." + +He just cut it off. As I recall, he refused to even acknowledge there +was such a picture. They had none of these exhibits in the room. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you +were there? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called +Neely Street, that you remember? Or Captain Fritz, did he say that he +told Oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had +seen Oswald there? Do you remember at this time anything about that? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anything--pardon me. + +Mr. HOLMES. I remember Fritz, I think, describe the fellow, and he just +ignored it. He was vague about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any statements that Oswald made about any +fight in New Orleans about Marxism or fair play for Cuba or anything? +Does that ring a bell with you? + +Mr. HOLMES. I knew all about it, and I knew the police records and all, +but I don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek +Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell? + +Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent +to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box +2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said, +"Absolutely not." + +"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?" + +He said, "No." + +"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?" + +"No, absolutely not." + +"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?" + +He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my +wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it +is possible she could have." + +"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him. + +And he said, "I don't know any such person." + +I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New +Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to +receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said, +"Well, that is my wife, so what?" + +And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell." + +"Well, I don't know anything about that." + +That is all he would say about it. + +Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we +got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, +where it showed A. J. Hidell." + +"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he +said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card +in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as +much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only +time that he flared up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there ever any mention at the time you were there of +the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? Do you remember +anything about that at all, or not? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? Do you remember +anything about that at all? + +Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had---- + +Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had +gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No." + +"Well, do you want an attorney?" + +And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from +New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him. + +And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned +something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't +remember the name, but they discussed that. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for +any lawyer? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of +police came to the office? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several +people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I +noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door, +and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the +appearance of being impatient. + +But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and +said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask +him." + +Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window +and would be impatient? + +Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others, +but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were +waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact, +the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to +talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer." + +And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient +outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed? + +Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and +through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once +in a while they would crack the door and look in. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth. + +Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office? + +Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here? + +Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet. + +Mr. BELIN. How many doors? + +Mr. HOLMES. One door. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other +than the police officers, that you know of? + +Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their +names. + +Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now. + +Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is +still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall +where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms. + +Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has +one private office of his own, and that is where we were. + +Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between +Chief Curry and Captain Fritz? + +Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a +hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and +I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of +those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he +said, "Give me the black one." + +So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting +that on, Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took +Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed +in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying +to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what +they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't +distinguish one thing that was said. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that +back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and +said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your +clothes?" + +And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong +sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they +uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, +and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of =V=-neck +sweater. + +Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with +the two Secret Service men. + +Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot? + +Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street. +Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the +reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the +sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go +down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a +better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have +my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my +office, so I will just take my own car." + +So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my +office, which probably took me ten minutes. + +When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and +walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this +box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "Well, they got +Oswald now." + +I said, "What are you talking about?" + +"Well, they have shot Oswald." + +They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That +is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I +left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." And just +then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure +enough, they shot him. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement +where they were going to transfer Oswald? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; out on the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police +officer about Oswald getting shot? + +Mr. HOLMES. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way. + +Mr. BELIN. Not since then with any other police officer? + +Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee Harvey +Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you +remember? + +Mr. HOLMES. When I was discussing with him about rental application for +Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that +anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No." + +I said, "Who did you show as your--what did you show as your business? + +And he said, "I didn't show anything." + +I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for +Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'." + +Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there." + +I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?" + +He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money." + +"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?" + +And he said, "No." + +He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the +organization of it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that +Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the +head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be +real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually, +it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably +you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money." +In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a +little money to get literature and work with." + +Then I asked--oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a +well organized or a better organization." + +Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came +to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he +said, "No, not at all." + +"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas? + +"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is +about all he said about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about +his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting? + +Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions +there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro +employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, +and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and +take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the +elevator back up." + +He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. +Nobody seemed to ask him. + +You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in +previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, +"Send the elevator back up to me." + +Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on +downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He +said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all +about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, +and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the +place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees +of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we +will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what +it was all about." + +And he wouldn't tell what happened then. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the +commotion--he kind of---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember? + +Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, +but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic +person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, +and he goes like that, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut +in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember +anything about that? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything +about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building? + +Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back--I don't know whether he +said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your +telephone?" + +And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he +identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, +and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look +at and said, "Where is the telephone?" + +And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went +on out. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and +went out to see what it was about. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home? + +Mr. HOLMES. They didn't--we didn't go into that. I just assumed that +they had covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he +walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked +him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you +are talking about." + +He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped +a policeman in the nose in a threatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I +readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself." + +Mr. BELIN. Because he was what? + +Mr. HOLMES. "Protecting myself." + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during +our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you +have been testifying just from memory, is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal +memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you +have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt. + +I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is +anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time. + +Mr. HOLMES. Read it aloud or to myself? + +Mr. BELIN. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can +remember to elaborate. + +Mr. HOLMES. The only part I have not covered would be the impression +that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to +a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a +polygraph test, a lie detector. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you would care to elaborate? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second +paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes." + +That is really the third paragraph on the page. + +Mr. HOLMES. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is +the last paragraph on the first page. + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on +it. + +Mr. BELIN. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page. + +Mr. HOLMES. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that +the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that +it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office +forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to +change the address on a newspaper. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life +in Russia? + +Mr. HOLMES. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was +her home town. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he +told us. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, +because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting +those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about +going to Mexico? Was that ever covered? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't +spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he +said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost +$26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous +small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy +to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the +talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little +amount. + +They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?" + +"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the +conversation. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico? + +Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to? + +Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there? + +Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw +in Mexico? + +Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or +something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to +Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out +of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the +business about how mad it made him. + +He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. +This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba. + +Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then +he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba +and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," +or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not? + +Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my +recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever +he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the +Russian to go by Cuba. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the +memorandum that you wrote? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up +from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum. + +I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said +that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is +reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4? + +Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the +forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2? + +Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the +third and last paragraph on the page. + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive +about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties +Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything +you care to add to that statement? + +Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything +you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here? + +Mr. HOLMES. All right as is. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3? + +Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine +Corps Service." + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet. + +Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to +add other than what is written on there? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the +distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when +Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was +shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward +him. I remember that distinctly. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy? + +Mr. HOLMES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read +that and see if there is anything you care to add to that? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page? + +Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that? + +Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when +asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he +normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular +weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a +house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. +And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you +remember? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods? + +Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car +with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes." + +"What was in the sack?" + +"Well, my lunch." + +"What size sack did you have?" + +He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack +that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack." + +"Was it a long sack?" + +"Well, it could have been." + +"What did you do with it?" + +"Carried it in my lap." + +"You didn't put it over in the back seat?" + +"No." He said he wouldn't have done that. + +"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long +package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at +work and you laid it over on the back seat." + +He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other +time he picked me up." + +That is all he said about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods. + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next +paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. +You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence +about the curtain rods? + +Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first +paragraph on page 4? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his +whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on +that? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration. + +Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell +identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is +anything on that? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he +was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the +shooting? + +Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule. + +Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule? + +Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just +coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently +there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor? + +Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, +if you remember? + +Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing +there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on +page 4? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last +paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything +else you care to add to that? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you +think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. +Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that +was involved in the purchase of the rifle? + +Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and +matched the original money order was number 2-202-130-462, issued at +the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of +$21.45. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the +pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order? + +Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if +there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he +was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time +of the assassination? + +Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to +repeat that? + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it. + +Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the +upper floors with a Negro. + +The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together." + +Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go +ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as +soon as I am finished." + +And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, +which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He +didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he +took the elevator down. + +But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as +though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, +or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke +involved. + +He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who +he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent +came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, +"Well, you step aside for a little bit." + +Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this +vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, +"Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and +so, where is your telephone." + +And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said +he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and +went on out the door." + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, when we first met, we sat down and I practically +started taking testimony right away, is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in the short conversation we had before we +started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed +here on the record? + +Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. For the record, I would like to offer as a part of this +deposition Holmes Exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in addition, I don't +know for the record, but I would like to offer--at some of the +depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam +reporter? + +And one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back +and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without +signing or coming back without reading it. Do you want to waive it or +come back? + +Mr. HOLMES. I will waive it. + +Mr. BELIN. One other thing. I better mark this as Holmes Deposition, +Exhibit 5. + +Mr. HOLMES. I want to save that. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, I hand you Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 and ask +you to state if you will what this is. + +Mr. HOLMES. It is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular +as put out by the post office department or the FBI showing a profile +view. That is two separate views of President Kennedy. + +Mr. BELIN. The one that says "Wanted for Treason"? + +Mr. HOLMES. Underneath his picture in large type is "Wanted for +Treason." + +Mr. BELIN. How did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact +involved? + +Mr. HOLMES. This was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who +brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of +the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route. + +Mr. BELIN. On what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the +assassination? + +Mr. HOLMES. He brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, +November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many of these were passed out? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; except that it came from various sources. They were +being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them +were brought in. This supervisor said that they had dozens of them down +there, that it had come in by the carrier. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe you also said that--is there anything else in +regards to Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 you care to add? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you showed us your deposition Exhibit 1, this +application for a post office box dated November 1, 1963, of Lee Harvey +Oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How can you tell? + +Mr. HOLMES. Because I recognized it as being the application, and +also--I mean the application that I obtained at the terminal annex, and +also the 6,000 designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex. + +Mr. BELIN. And you also showed me an application for box 5475, dated +November 7, 1963. Is that also the terminal annex? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. This was taken out by whom? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is an application taken out by Jack Ruby on November +7, 1963, showing his firm name as being Earl Products; business, +merchandising. + +Mr. BELIN. We will put this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6. Do you +know of any connection of your own knowledge between Jack Ruby and Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. HOLMES. No, sir; I know of none. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can say about Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6? + +Mr. HOLMES. I believe not. + +Mr. BELIN. Other than the fact that within a week of one another these +two applications were taken out at the same post office? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is the only significance that it has, as far as I am +concerned. + +Mr. BELIN. We will offer in evidence Holmes Deposition Exhibits 5 and +6, in addition to 1 through 4. + +Let the record show that the original of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 +will be returned to Mr. Holmes, and we will just for our records have +copies made by the court reporter. + +Mr. HOLMES. I have a photocopy machine in my office. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic +copy of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2 and you keep the original. This +would be satisfactory for our purposes. This is the advertisement +you cut out. Do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter +yourself? Would you take the photostats? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the +cooperation you have given the President's Commission. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. BOOKHOUT + +The testimony of James W. Bookhout was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. STERN. Will you please rise. + +Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. + +Mr. STERN. State your name, please. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. James W. Bookhout. Do you want my home address? + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. 7048 Cornelia Lane, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Bookhout? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau of +Investigation? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Little over 22 years. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Since about 1945. + +Mr. STERN. Were you on duty on November 22? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Actually, I was on leave on that particular date. +However, I had been requested to come to the office to handle some +expedited dictation in a particular case. Having completed that, I +left the office and proceeded to the Mercantile National Bank, where +I transacted some personal business. Upon leaving the bank, it was +momentarily expected that the President's motorcade would pass that +area. I stood there for a few minutes, and as the motorcade passed I +was actually unable to personally observe the President, due to the +crowd on the sidewalk. While waiting for the crowd to thin, in order +to cross the street, several separate sirens on the police squad cars +were heard proceeding in the direction of the county courthouse. While +crossing the street, some citizen with a transistor radio stated that +it had just been announced that shots had been fired at the President's +motorcade. + +I immediately proceeded toward the office and observed two agents +coming from the direction of the office, who advised that the office +was trying to contact me and I was to proceed to the homicide and +robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. + +I immediately proceeded to the homicide and robbery bureau and +contacted my office and was advised that I was to maintain liaison with +the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. STERN. Did you then go to the police headquarters? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; as I said, I went to the homicide and robbery bureau +after contacting the Dallas office. + +Mr. STERN. What then occurred at the police headquarters? Let me ask +you this: How soon after you arrived there was Oswald brought in? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it was some little time, as I recall, the next +pertinent instance was a report that the Dallas Police officer had +been shot, and that was in the Oak Cliff area. Captain Fritz had +not returned to the office at that time. When he did return, and +subsequently Oswald was apprehended in the Texas Theatre, information +was passed to Captain Fritz as to the name of the suspect that they had +apprehended on the Tippit shooting, and at that time he stated that +that was the suspect that they were looking for on the killing of the +President. + +Mr. STERN. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald mean anything to you at that +time? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. Captain Fritz went on to explain that Oswald was an +employee of the Texas Book Depository, who they had ascertained left +his employment there subsequent to the shooting incident. + +Mr. STERN. And sometime after this he was brought to the police +headquarters? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought in? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Can you describe his physical condition? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can recall one of the officers that brought him in was +Paul Bentley. He is a polygraph operator in the identification division +of the Dallas Police Department, and Bentley was limping, and Oswald +had one eye that was swollen and a scratch mark on his forehead. + +Mr. STERN. Did you observe any other bruises? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. None. + +Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Was he walking by himself, or being held by police officers? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. To my recollection there was an officer on each side of +him that had ahold of his arms. + +Mr. STERN. Was he struggling? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; just walking in, you know what I mean. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. In a normal fashion. + +Mr. STERN. Then what occurred, that you observed? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' +office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and +two homicide officers. + +Mr. STERN. Were you present? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I was not in the office at that time. I called our +office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was +starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and +said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that +Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was to sit in on the interview, and I +was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain +Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m. + +Mr. STERN. How long had the interview gone on before you were present? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Very shortly. I would give a rough estimate of not more +than 5 to 10 minutes at the most. + +Mr. STERN. How long did that first interview last? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. A little under an hour. + +Mr. STERN. Was it interrupted at any point, if you remember? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, what I am thinking, we have got several interviews +here. I know from time to time I can't recall whether it was this +interview, or subsequent interviews Captain Fritz would have to leave +the office for a second or two. By "office," I mean the immediate +office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the +homicide and robbery office. + +Mr. STERN. Did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, +or did you wait for his return? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; it would continue. + +Mr. STERN. By whom was the interview conducted? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Primarily it was conducted by Captain Fritz and then +before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there +was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point. + +Mr. STERN. By "we," you mean Agent Hosty and yourself? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right. + +Mr. STERN. What was Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? +Did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? Can you describe +his conduct? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was very arrogant and argumentative. That is about the +extent of the comment on that. + +Mr. STERN. Is this as to you and Hosty, or also Captain Fritz? Did he +differentiate in his conduct between Captain Fritz and the two of you? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now--no; that would apply to everyone present. + +Mr. STERN. Did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to +answer the questions? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there would be certain questions that he refused to +comment about. + +Mr. STERN. When this happened was the question pressed, or another +question asked? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Anyone asking the--another question would be asked. + +Mr. STERN. What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there +any pattern to his refusing? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then +to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering +this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about +the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he +admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit +that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point +stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally +you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent +to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would +refuse to discuss. + +Mr. STERN. Would you say he had a pretty good idea of what might be +incriminating and what not incriminating? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that would call for an opinion, and I can +only report the facts to you, and based on the example of the type of +questions that I had commented on that he refused to answer, you will +have to draw your own conclusion on that. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. I am just trying to get at whether he seemed +in command of himself and alert, and whether he handled himself +responsibly from his own viewpoint, but if you don't want to venture an +opinion, that's fine. + +When you first joined the interview, did you advise him that you were +an agent of the FBI, and did you say anything about warning him that +evidence--that anything he said might be used? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was done by Agent Hosty. + +Mr. STERN. Did he, at that point, or later say anything specifically +regarding the FBI? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Tell us what that was. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He accused the FBI of, generally, unfair tactics in +interviewing his wife on some previous occasion. + +Mr. STERN. Was this directed specifically at either you or Hosty, or to +the general---- + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was directed against Hosty. + +Mr. STERN. He did not, Oswald did not indicate that he knew Hosty +himself, did he? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. But, there was a complaint about an interview, or +interrogation of Marina Oswald? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about FBI interviews of him that had +occurred in the past, any complaint about such interviews? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know that that would be in this particular +interview, but in one of the interviews which has been reported he +stated that he had been interviewed at Fort Worth, Tex., by agents upon +his return to the United States from Russia, and he felt that they had +used unfair means of interviewing him, or something. Those are not his +exact words, but that is the impression he conveyed. + +Mr. STERN. Unfair in what respect? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. Tell us the nature of his complaint. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think he probably used the expression, "Unfair +tactics," or something in their interviews. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he indicate that he felt that the interview that +was then going on was unfair in any way? Did he complain about that? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, he didn't complain about the interview. He made a +complaint or two, as I recall, that one of the interviews that has +been reported, in fact, I believe it was in this first interview he +complained about his hands being handcuffed behind his back, and asked +Captain Fritz to remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz had one of his +officers uncuff his hands from behind his back and recuff them in front +and asked him if that was more satisfactory and he stated that it was. + +Mr. STERN. Any other aspect of his treatment that he complained of? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I recall one of the interviews that he complained about +the lineup that he was in, that he wasn't allowed to wear a jacket +similar to jackets worn by others in the lineup. + +Mr. STERN. Did this occur at the lineup or subsequently? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was in one of the interviews in Captain Fritz' +office. + +Mr. STERN. Referring to a lineup that had---- + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Subsequently been held--previously been held. + +Mr. STERN. During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever +been in Mexico, and if so, by whom? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if he had ever been in +Mexico. + +Mr. STERN. What did he say? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he had not. I believe he mentioned he had been in +Tijuana, Mexico, I believe, but I believe the question was whether he +had ever been in Mexico City. + +Mr. STERN. Was he asked about an organization called the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee, and if so, by whom? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. I don't recall +specifically who raised the question. + +Mr. STERN. What did he say? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the +New Orleans branch. I believe he said the headquarters was in New York +City. + +Mr. STERN. Was there much discussion of this, or just the +identification? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, that is another instance where he balked on +answering a question. He was asked who the officers were, and at that +point he said he refused to discuss the matter further. + +Mr. STERN. Was he asked his residence address in Dallas and did he give +it? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he furnished the address of 1026 North Beckley. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say that he was living there under another name, or +was another name and particularly the name O. H. Lee mentioned at all +in this connection? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was asked why he was using the name Lee at this +address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord +was an old lady, and his first name was Lee and she just had gotten +it in her head that he was Mr. Lee. He never did explain about the +initials O. H. + +Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he had shot the President, or Officer +Tippit? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of +them, or knowing anything about it. + +Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he +was in the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was +carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had +bought this some time ago in Fort Worth. + +Mr. STERN. He said he had gotten it in Fort Worth? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That is my recollection, and there again, in trying +to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any +further questions as to whereabouts in Fort Worth he had bought it. + +Mr. STERN. Did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at +the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the +arrest, but I don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it. + +Mr. STERN. Did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or +say anything to that effect? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing +he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be +the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest. + +Mr. STERN. When he was asked about involvement in the assassination of +President Kennedy, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, how would you +describe his denials? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but as +I recall, he spoke very loudly. In other words, he was--he gave an +emphatic denial, that is about all I can recall on it. + +Mr. STERN. I believe that in the report you filed on this first +interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used +the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. Does +that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now, +or was that your word? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his +expression of describing it. + +Mr. STERN. Do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive +word now? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be the way I would describe it. As I +said, he spoke---- + +Mr. STERN. I am not trying to put words into your mouth. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He spoke loudly. + +Mr. STERN. I am most interested in getting the tone of this +interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that +is why I ask this question, and there is something of a difference +between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting +emphatically. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I suppose the word, "frantically," would probably +describe it. In other words, I said that he spoke loudly. There just +wasn't a normal type of denial. He was--it was more than that. That is +the reason I say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive +word. + +Mr. STERN. Did that occur only in connection with questions about +whether he had shot the President, or was the general tone of this +interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in +answering all questions. He would have certain kinds there, and certain +types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or +making any other physical gestures of that kind? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Now, this interview, as I understand, took approximately an +hour? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. According to this report, you and Agent Hosty entered the +interviewing around about 3:15 p.m., and it ended at 4:05. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That would be correct. + +Mr. STERN. Were these times that you or Hosty would have recorded at +that moment in the ordinary course of your participation? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. There was no log made of it, as such, but +those were the times recorded for that particular interview. + +Mr. STERN. Your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately +in matter of this---- + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Try to. + +Mr. STERN. And did you make the record of these times, or did Agent +Hosty? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can say that I did. Whether he did or not, I don't know. + +Mr. STERN. Incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or +destroy them when you make a formal report? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. They will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make +your--what we refer to as an interview report. + +Mr. STERN. And in this case, did you destroy your notes? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. So, you have no notes respecting this whole matter? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, other than the reported interviewing report. + +Mr. STERN. Yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as I +understand it, to take Oswald before a lineup? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. Did you go with the police taking Oswald? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I didn't go with them. In other words, it was +strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. I did +proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of +maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall how many people were in the lineup? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was a four-man lineup. + +Mr. STERN. Did you know any of the other people? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related +to Oswald's physical characteristics? Were they same size as he, or +noticeably larger or smaller? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were +numbered from left to right, one through four. Oswald was No. 2 in the +lineup. All the individuals appeared to be of the same general age, +height, and weight, and they were white American males. + +Mr. STERN. What about the dress of all the people in the lineup? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but +there was nothing obviously different between their dress. + +Mr. STERN. From your experience as an FBI agent, from your experience +in policework, I take it you observed nothing about this lineup that +was out of the ordinary? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. Did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the +lineup said about the lineup? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I did not. + +Mr. STERN. When the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as +you were concerned? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I returned to the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. STERN. Was Oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was brought back +to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but I do know +that I didn't interview him any more that day. + +Mr. STERN. Did you have any further contact with him that day? Friday? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it would be on the morning of November 23, 1963, in +the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. STERN. This was another interrogation? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Conducted by Captain Fritz? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any +time to your reports to refresh your recollection. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right; that will be the interrogation that was in +the presence of myself, T. J. Kelley of the U.S. Secret Service, David +B. Grant, U.S. Secret Service, Robert I. Nash, U.S. marshal, and +Detectives Billy L. Senkel and Fay M. Turner from the homicide and +robbery bureau, Dallas Police Department. This interview was conducted, +primarily, by Captain Fritz. + +Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions in the course of this interview? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. What were they, and what were the responses, if you recall? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. One specific question was with regard to the selective +service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of +Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried +this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the +signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to +state the purpose of carrying same, and--or any use he made of same. + +Mr. STERN. Did Oswald say anything in the course of this interview with +regard to obtaining a lawyer? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted +to contact Attorney Abt [spelling] A-b-t, New York City. I recall +Captain Fritz asked him if he knew Abt personally and he said he did +not, but he explained that he knew that Abt had defended the Smith Act +cases in 1949, or 1950, and Captain Fritz asked him if he knew how +to get ahold of Mr. Abt, and he stated that he did not know what his +address was, but he was in New York. + +I recall that Captain Fritz explained to him that he would allow him to +place a long distance call for Abt, and he explained to Oswald how to +ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even +though Oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number. + +Mr. STERN. Did he actually make the call in your presence? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he didn't make the call in my presence. The next +interview that we had with him, I recall that Captain Fritz asked him +if he had been able to contact Mr. Abt. Oswald stated that he had made +the telephone call and thanked Captain Fritz for allowing him to make +the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to Abt. He wasn't +available. Wasn't in his office or something---- + +Mr. STERN. Was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or +did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach Abt? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he made no complaint about not being furnished +an attorney. Actually, there was a good deal of conversation on +that point, and he stated that he did not want any Dallas attorney +representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with Mr. +Abt, that he would probably contact someone with the Civil Liberties +Union, and have them furnish an attorney. I recall sometime during +November 22 or 23, I believe it was, the head of the Dallas Bar +Association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested +permission to talk to Oswald. Captain Fritz gave him that permission, +and when he got through talking to Oswald and came back in and told +Captain Fritz that he had seen him, and that Oswald did not want +anybody from Dallas to represent him. + +Mr. STERN. You heard this? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was in my presence. I don't recall the name of +the attorney, but I was there at the time or during that conversation. + +Mr. STERN. Can you tell us approximately how long this Saturday morning +interview took? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be approximately an hour. No interview +that I participated in lasted over an hour, and I think roughly this +one probably started around 10:35 in the morning and lasted for +approximately an hour. + +Mr. STERN. All right. What was his physical appearance at this time? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. His appearance was no different than it was on the 22d. + +Mr. STERN. You saw no other bruises? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem rested, or tired? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I saw no difference in his appearance on the 23d than it +was on the 22d. + +Mr. STERN. How about the way he handled himself? Was he any calmer, any +more communicative Saturday morning than he had been Friday afternoon? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that he might not have been quite as +belligerent on the 23d as he was on the 22d. But he still refused to +discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being +one point that I recall. I remember he was asked if he would take +a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his +practice not to agree to take a polygraph. + +Mr. STERN. Did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a +polygraph? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He made some comment along the line that it had never +been his policy--before, to take a polygraph. + +Mr. STERN. But he didn't elaborate on it? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He didn't elaborate on it. + +Mr. STERN. Did he make any further comment at this interview about his +interviews with the FBI, or their interviews of his wife? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think probably this is the one I referred to a while +ago. Yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment +that on the interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI, regarding his wife, +that he felt that his wife was intimidated. Also, in this interview +that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived +about July 19, 1962, from Russia, and was interviewed by the FBI at +Fort Worth, Tex. + +He stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used +various tactics in interviewing him. + +Mr. STERN. Did he specify what the tactics were? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he did not. + +Mr. STERN. In your report before this interview you mentioned that he +again denied shooting President Kennedy, and apparently said that he +didn't know until then that Governor Connally had been shot? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. That was his statement, that he denied +shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and commented +that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot. + +Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely +surprised? Did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel +about that? I am just asking for your impression. If you don't have +one, say so. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I have no impression on that. I arrived at no +conclusion. + +Mr. STERN. What did he say at this interview with respect to the +purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't +ever made any mail order purchase of one. + +Mr. STERN. Now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning +Oswald between the end of that morning interview on Saturday, and the +next interview of Oswald? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. You stayed at the police headquarters in that period +performing liaison functions? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. You did not observe another lineup? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were other lineups. + +Mr. STERN. But you did not participate? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. But I did not observe. + +Mr. STERN. Or observe? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Any others. + +Mr. STERN. Now, approximately when did the next interview occur? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. The interview at about 6:30 p.m., on November 23, 1963. + +Mr. STERN. How long did this interview last? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Not over an hour. + +Mr. STERN. Who conducted this interview? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Captain Fritz. + +Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions, that you recall? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall asking any specific questions during this +interview. + +Mr. STERN. It was at this interview, was it not, that Oswald was shown +photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a +holster? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. What was his comment about the photograph? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. His comment, as I recall, he was asked if this was his +photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was +his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone +else. He pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news +media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery +bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the +photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how +much he knew about photography, and knew that this--his face could be +superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and +so forth. + +Mr. STERN. Now, was his appearance and demeanor at this interview---- + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No different than it was during the previous interviews. + +Mr. STERN. Did he have any comment at this interview about counsel? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. None other than at the outset of being first asked if +that was his photograph, he first made the statement that he wouldn't +make any comment about it without the advice of counsel, but then +subsequently is when he went into the story about his face had been +superimposed over somebody else's body. + +Mr. STERN. Did he complain in the course of this interview about the +way in which the lineup had been conducted? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. This is the interview in which he--a previously mentioned +comment here was made to the effect that he had not been granted a +request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other +individuals in some previous lineups. + +Mr. STERN. In each of these interviews was he generally taken through +the same questions or similar questions, or were the interviews +addressed to different areas? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. More or less, they had been to a specific area. For +instance, in this last interview we are talking about, that was more or +less confined to this photograph. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that +ground before," or make any such statement? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can +recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he +talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book +Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up +again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer +at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and +said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had +taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a +taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence. + +Mr. STERN. Had he been confronted by the driver of the taxicab, or been +told that they had located the driver of the taxicab before he changed +his story, or did he volunteer the story of the taxi? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was confronted +with that or not. + +Mr. STERN. All right. Do you recall whether in the course of any of the +interrogations any official, anyone present suggested in any way to +Oswald that things would be better for him if he told the truth, if he +confessed? Was he ever offered any inducement--any suggestion made that +he would be better off if he told the full story? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't recall anything along that line. I don't recall +any type of inducement whatsoever. + +Mr. STERN. In each interview in which you participated, did you warn +him about the possible use of his statement against him? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I personally did not at each interview, but I can say +that at each interview he was warned. He was warned numerous times by +Captain Fritz and his rights were fully explained to him. + +Mr. STERN. What sort of warning would Captain Fritz give him, generally? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. He gave a warning consisting of the fact that he did not +have to make any statement, that any statement he made could be used +against him in court, and he had the right to consult with an attorney, +generally, that was the rights that were explained to him, as I recall. + +Mr. STERN. This was said at each session at which you were present? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was given at once each time, and the question would +come up later on, I mean, he would repeat himself, that, you don't have +to make any statement--and so forth. + +Mr. STERN. Did you observe anytime any physical or mental coercion of +Oswald by anyone? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. None whatsoever. + +Mr. STERN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. STERN. Now, back on the record. This interview on late Saturday +afternoon, was about 6 or 6:30, is that correct? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. This one started about 6:30 p.m. And I would say it +lasted about an hour. + +Mr. STERN. I see. So, that is 7:30? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Was there any further interview that day that you +participated in? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. None that I recall. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again anytime after that interview +concluded? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now, yes; on the morning of November 24, 1963, I observed +him in interview with Captain Fritz and numerous other officers in the +homicide and robbery bureau. Captain Fritz--I did not participate in +this interview. It had already started before I arrived. + +Mr. STERN. Did you notice anything unusual about his appearance? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I stayed there in the office of the homicide and robbery +bureau. When I refer to "office" I mean the overall office, and inside +of that office is a private office of Captain Fritz. The interview was +being conducted in the private office. There is a glass partition or +glass--well, say glass partition on one side of the office that you +can see what is going on inside there. I took a seat adjacent to this +glass area in the office proper of the homicide and robbery bureau, and +watched Oswald during the interview that was going on. About--well, +I don't know what time specifically, it was after 11 o'clock, as I +recall, the interview terminated. I asked Captain Fritz if he had--if +Oswald made any admissions, and he stated that he had not made any. +Shortly thereafter he was taken out of the homicide and robbery bureau. +I remained in the homicide office. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see him again? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Next time I saw him was after a report came out over the +intercom system for any homicide and robbery officers to report to the +city hall basement. I proceeded to the basement after learning from +Lieutenant Baker in the homicide and robbery bureau, who had made a +telephone call to the dispatcher to inquire what was going on, that +Oswald had been shot. + +When I arrived in the basement I asked where was Oswald, and they said +that he was in the jail office. I asked who had shot him, and I was +told an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. I asked where he was. They +said, they have already taken him up to the jail. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Just shortly thereafter the ambulance came, and I +observed them roll Oswald out of the jail office on the stretcher and +that is the last---- + +Mr. STERN. I would like to clear up one point, Mr. Bookhout, about the +number of interviews on Saturday. Your present recollection is that +there were how many in which you participated? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. Two on Saturday. + +Mr. STERN. One at about what time and the other at what time? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. One was about 10:35 a.m., and the second one was about +6:30 p.m. + +Mr. STERN. You do not now recall any separate interview at about 12:30 +on Saturday? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't specifically recall any separate interview at +that time. I checked the record before coming over and the interviews +that I have mentioned are the only ones I have in the report. + +Mr. STERN. Would you describe briefly the conditions in the corridor +outside the homicide and robbery area. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. On November 22 and 23, the hallway in front of the +homicide and robbery bureau located on the third floor of the city hall +building was jammed with news media. From the elevator area to the +end of the hallway, extending on past the homicide and robbery bureau +entrance. + +Mr. STERN. Could you hear anything from the hallway when you were in +the interrogation room? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were two Dallas Police officers on duty at +the entrance to the homicide and robbery bureau, who required you to +identify yourself being that--before being allowed entrance into the +bureau. The interviews of Oswald were conducted in the private offices +of Capt. J. W. Fritz, located within the same bureau, and the door to +the private office was closed, and we did not hear any commotion going +on outside in the halls while the interviews were in progress. + +Mr. STERN. Did Oswald ever say anything that you heard about the press +and conditions in the hallway? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. The only thing I recall offhand is the incident mentioned +previously about the press undoubtedly taking his photograph when he +was going and coming from the homicide and robbery bureau. + +Mr. STERN. I think that covers all the questions I have, Mr. Bookhout. +Thank you very much for coming here. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. You are welcome. + +Mr. STERN. If there is anything that occurs to you that I haven't asked +about and you think the Commission should know, I would be delighted to +have you tell me. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't think of anything that I could add to what you +have already heard. + +Mr. STERN. Now, our reporter will transcribe your testimony and can +make a copy available for you to read and sign. If you think it is +accurate, you can waive that if you desire, and she will then send +it directly to the Commission. It makes no difference at all to the +Commission which you elect. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think that as far as I am concerned, it would be all +right. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. Then you will waive? + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. My idea--the purpose--only purpose I would have would be +just to help you if there are any typographical errors in there. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. And thank you for coming in today. + +Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MANNING C. CLEMENTS + +The testimony of Manning C. Clements was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Clements. Will you rise and raise your +right hand, please. + +Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Would you please sit down. State your name and address. + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Manning C. Clements, 5542 Montrose [spelling] +M-o-n-t-r-o-s-e Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Clements? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I'm a special agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Twenty-three years and approximately 4 months. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Since April 1952. + +Mr. STERN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a special agent? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I was. + +Mr. STERN. Did your duties that morning before noon concern the visit +of the President? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. Will you relate to us what happened when you first heard the +news of the shooting of the President? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I arrived at the office following lunch and shortly +thereafter heard of the shooting at the motorcade, and my superior +instructed me to go to the office of the chief of police. I was to +offer the services of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for whatever +use the police might find them of benefit. + +Mr. STERN. What did you do then? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I went to the police station, arriving there at +approximately 1 o'clock. I immediately contacted the office of the +chief. I found that he was out. I contacted Capt. Glen King, his +administrative assistant, and Captain Lunday, who was also on duty +in the chief's office. Contacted Art Hammet, the public relations +representative, who was occupying the desk in the outer office of the +chief. I informed each of them as to the reason for my presence and +that any requests that they might have for FBI assistance, information +or otherwise, could be given to me and I would in turn, relay their +request to our Dallas office. + +Mr. STERN. What occurred next? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. During the course of the next several hours I was +in occasional contact with various representatives of the police +department, in contact with my own office by telephone. Served more or +less as a liaison officer to relay instructions to any other FBI agents +who were on the premises. + +Mr. STERN. When did you first hear of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I can't fix the exact time. I am certain that I heard +almost immediately after the arrest, because I learned from police +personnel of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and thereafter, when they +received radio reports, I was generally aware of such report. So, +I became aware of the arrest of Oswald, I would say, approximately +coincidentally with the front office, or with the police department +learning of the arrest. + +Mr. STERN. At that time his name meant nothing? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Repeat that. + +Mr. STERN. His name meant nothing to you? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought into the police +headquarters? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. When did you first see Oswald? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I am, at this moment, uncertain of whether I saw him +prior to personally interrogating him. I don't believe that I did. + +Mr. STERN. Did you know that he was being interrogated, and that other +special agents of the FBI were present? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. It was my understanding that he was being questioned and +that FBI agents were participating. + +Mr. STERN. You were, then, pursuing other functions? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. And they were, again, liaison activities? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Liaison--primarily. + +Mr. STERN. Were you, Mr. Clements, the conduit for any information that +the FBI had concerning Oswald, to the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. I understand that you participated in an interrogation of +Oswald. Would you tell me about that? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Sometime during the evening I did go to the homicide +bureau office for some purpose I don't immediately recall, and there +I saw one of our other agents, James Bookhout, and I asked him if +anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description +and detailed background information from Oswald. He told me that such +description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested +that I do it. I learned from Bookhout, as I recall, that Oswald was, at +the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed. + +I sought out Captain Fritz, in charge of the homicide bureau, or one +of his ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my +interviewing Oswald in the regard mentioned. + +I was told there was no objection. I entered this room and found +that Oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who I +presumed to be members of the Dallas Police Department, but whom I did +not personally know. + +Mr. STERN. They were not interrogating him? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty. + +Mr. STERN. Then what happened? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I introduced myself to the officers whose names I do not +believe that I got, and also introduced myself to Oswald. Exhibited +my credentials and told him that I would like to obtain from him some +physical description, background, biographical data. He was agreeable, +and I began my interview with him. + +Mr. STERN. Can you approximate the time of day that this +occurred--roughly? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I would say the interview began roughly at 10 p.m. + +Mr. STERN. How long did it last? And was it interrupted? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I estimate the overall interview was approximately 30 or +35 minutes. I was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, +being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was +gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, +and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. When he returned I continued +the interview. + +Mr. STERN. Approximately how long was he gone? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I would estimate 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. STERN. So, that the total amount of time that you spent with him +was something like 20 minutes? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. That would be a rough estimate. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see him again after that interview? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I saw him next at a time which I estimate was 11:30 +p.m., the 22d. It was at a time when he was being taken to the basement +of the city hall to a press conference. I saw him as he was being taken +to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and I went +to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and I saw him as +he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, +and during the course of the press conference. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see him again at any time after that press +conference? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition, as you observed it when +you---- + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He---- + +Mr. STERN. When you entered the room to interrogate him? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I observed a bruise, a bruise in the vicinity of one of +his eyes. I believe minor scratches on his face. I saw no evidence that +he was suffering from any physical pain or anything of that sort. + +Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. With his hands in front or behind? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Hands were in front. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem alert, or otherwise? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed alert. + +Mr. STERN. Will you now tell, Mr. Clements, as much as you can recall +of your interrogation of Oswald at that time? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I informed him of the purpose of my interview. He made no +objection. I proceeded to get his name in full. I asked him questions +as to his date and place of birth, height, weight, color of his hair +and eyes, and as to the existence of any permanent scars or marks. As +to the identities of close relatives, their addresses and occupations, +and asked him as to his own occupation, residence, attempting to get +them in chronological order, and asked as to his past occupations. + +Mr. STERN. Did you review with him the contents of his wallet and ask +him questions on any of it? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I questioned him as to the fictitious, and obviously +fictitious selective service card, which I found in his wallet. +I recognized it as being fictitious card from the fact that the +photograph was mounted on the card, and that there were obvious +erasures in typing of information on the card itself. The card was in +the name of an Alek James Hidell, but bore the photograph of Oswald. + +Mr. STERN. What did he say about that card? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of +his possession of it. + +Mr. STERN. Were there any other questions you put to him that he +refused to answer? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Toward the conclusion of the interview and after he +had been absent and returned I continued with the questions of past +residence and past occupations. He responded to my questions. At a time +when I asked him as to his present occupation he hesitated and told +me that he thought the obtaining of his description and background +information had become somewhat prolonged. He said that he had refused +to be interviewed by other law enforcement officers previously, and +that he had no intention of being interviewed by me. He continued that +he knew the tactics of the FBI. He stated there was a counterpart or a +similar agency in Russia, that I was using the soft touch, where the +approach of a Russian agency would be different, but the tactics would +be the same. + +Mr. STERN. At that point did he stop answering questions? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No; at that point I asked the same question that I had +asked previously, and he answered. + +Mr. STERN. Did the interview continue beyond that? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. That was substantially the end of the interview. + +Mr. STERN. Were there other persons present besides the two Dallas +police officers who were guarding him? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. At either time, either before or after he had been withdrawn +from the lineup? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem hostile or resentful or irritated by the fact +that you were an FBI agent? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He did not state that, if that were the case. He +was courteous, responsive as to any question. Volunteered little +information. + +Mr. STERN. But volunteered very little information. Did he seem a +person in command of himself? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed to be in command of himself both physically +and mentally. He had what appeared to me to be a slightly haughty or +arrogant attitude. + +Mr. STERN. Did he complain to you about the treatment he was receiving? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say anything to you about obtaining counsel, whether +he had tried to? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. He said nothing whatsoever in that regard. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about any effort on his part to reach +his family that had been unsuccessful? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. No; he did not. + +Mr. STERN. At the conclusion of your interview, did you leave the +office in which he was being guarded and leave him behind? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. STERN. When you next saw him at this press conference in the +basement, can you describe the conditions in that room? How many people +were present? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. The corridor on the third floor was quite crowded, and +when I reached the basement there were, I would estimate, perhaps 50 +people, all told, including officers, members of the press, perhaps +others. There was a crowded condition I would say. + +Mr. STERN. Quite a great deal of noise? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I don't recall any great amount of noise. Although, I +do recall that members of the press were attempting to get Oswald to +respond to questions. + +Mr. STERN. How did he seem at that time? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I saw no difference in his appearance to that at the time +I had talked with him. + +Mr. STERN. Did he then seem to you to be in command of himself, and +alert? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; he did. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Clements, did you make a record of your interview with +Oswald? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I did. + +Mr. STERN. How soon after the interview did you dictate that memorandum? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. The following day, November 23, 1963. + +Mr. STERN. And have you reviewed that memorandum to refresh your memory +of what occurred? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I have. + +Mr. STERN. And you had no further contact, or didn't observe Oswald, +Mr. Clements, as I understand it, from the time of the press conference +until he was, himself, killed on November 24? + +Mr. CLEMENTS. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you very much. + +Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. The reporter will transcribe your testimony. You can, if +you wish, review a copy of the transcript and sign it, or waive your +signature and the reporter will send it directly to the Commission, +whichever you prefer. + +Mr. CLEMENTS. I think I would prefer to review it after it is typed. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. + +The reporter will get in touch with you and give you an opportunity to +review it. + +Thank you very much for coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GREGORY LEE OLDS + +The testimony of Gregory Lee Olds was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. STERN. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. OLDS. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Sit down, please, Mr. Olds. For the record will you state +your name and address. + +Mr. OLDS. Gregory Lee Olds, 1316 Timberlake, Richardson, Tex. + +Mr. STERN. What is your profession? + +Mr. OLDS. I am an editor of a weekly newspaper. + +Mr. STERN. Where? + +Mr. OLDS. In Richardson. + +Mr. STERN. What is your connection with the Dallas Civil Liberties +Union? + +Mr. OLDS. I am its President. + +Mr. STERN. Were you its president in November of 1963? + +Mr. OLDS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Can you tell us what transpired on November 22, in +connection with your efforts and the efforts of your organization to +assure that Lee Harvey Oswald was not being denied his right to counsel? + +Mr. OLDS. Yes. I got a phone call about 10:30 that night from one of +our board members saying they had been called by the President of the +Austin affiliate who was concerned about the reports that were being +circulated on the air. I think Oswald was directly quoted as saying he +had not been given the opportunity to have counsel, and the suggestion +was made that it might be well to check into this matter, and I believe +I called this--I first called the police department to inquire about +this, and finally talked to Captain Fritz, Capt. Will Fritz, and +was--raised the question, and he said, "No--" that Oswald had been +given the opportunity and declined. And I called--then I called the +board member back who had called me---- + +Mr. STERN. Excuse me. Did Captain Fritz say that Oswald did not want +counsel at that time, or that he was trying to obtain his own counsel? + +Mr. OLDS. What I was told, that he had been given the opportunity and +had not made any requests. So, I called our board member back and +conferred with him and he suggested that we go down and see about it at +the police department, in person, to get further assurances. And he and +I and two others of our organization met down there at the Plaza Hotel +lobby about 11:15, directly across the street from the police station, +and we discussed the matter there, and I called Mayor Earle Cabell at +his office, but was told that he was busy at the moment so we went then +over to the police station, and we got in there. Let's see, it was up +on the--I guess the third or fourth floor, wherever Oswald was being +questioned, and Chuck Webster, a lawyer--professor of law, who was +known to the other three men with me said he had been there a good part +of the time since the assassination, and that--we told him what we were +there for, and he said he thought he knew who we could see to get our +assurances. Did you have something? + +Mr. STERN. No. + +Mr. OLDS. We went to--first, we talked--conferred with Captain King, I +believe is the right name, who is, I believe, assistant to the chief of +police. I'm not sure on that. We all went in with Mr. Webster, and this +was shortly after 11:35, or 11:40, and Captain King was, at this time, +talking to somebody and said that Oswald had just been charged with the +assassination of President Kennedy. He had here--earlier been charged +with the assassination--I mean the murder of the policeman, Tippit, and +we told Captain King what we were there for, and he said, he assured us +that Oswald had not made any requests for counsel. And we went outside +of the office and went downstairs, at least--I didn't, but two of the +others, I believe, went downstairs to the basement where Justice of the +Peace David Johnston was. He was the one that had held the--I believe +an arraignment, I believe is the right term, at 7:30 when the first +charge of murder was filed against Oswald, and he also assured us that +there had been an opportunity of--Oswald's rights had been explained, +and he had declined counsel. Said nothing beyond that. I think that was +the extent of our inquiry. + +Mr. STERN. What happened next? + +Mr. OLDS. Also we were--I believe Chief Curry was quoted to us as +having said some--also that Oswald had been advised of his rights to +counsel. I am not sure who told me that. I believe that it was Mr. +Webster. That was about all. We felt fairly well satisfied that Oswald +probably had not been deprived of his rights, so, we then broke up. +I think the other men went home, and I went downstairs. I heard that +there was going to be a press conference, so I thought I could stand in +on that and--do you want me to go ahead and detail that? + +Mr. STERN. Yes, this was---- + +Mr. OLDS. This was right at midnight, I think, when Oswald was brought +in. + +Mr. STERN. Brought in where? + +Mr. OLDS. This was a squadroom and I am not sure what the term is. +It is in the basement of the police station. That was being used as +a pressroom. I believe it is some sort of a classroom or something +of that sort. He was brought in there. I suppose a hundred reporters +standing around on tables, and I understand Ruby was there at the time, +too, up near the front. + +Mr. STERN. You don't know that, though? + +Mr. OLDS. I don't remember seeing him. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know Ruby? + +Mr. OLDS. No; I don't. No; I remember someone saying what he was +supposed to have said when--and helped somebody answer a question. +I forget what it was, and Oswald came in, and he was there about 5 +minutes---- + +Mr. STERN. Were you permitted to enter this room without displaying any +identification? + +Mr. OLDS. Yes; I wasn't stopped at all. Nobody seemed to pay--it was +pretty well confused around there, and nobody questioned me at all. + +Mr. STERN. Would you have been known to the police as a newspaperman? + +Mr. OLDS. I had never been in the police building. No one had any way +of knowing who I was, or what my business was. + +Mr. STERN. Did you have to identify yourself to get into this building +to begin with? + +Mr. OLDS. No; no problem getting into the building. No one in the +lobby, and I don't believe there was anyone at all until you get up to +the third or fourth floor where the police department section of the +building begins. + +Mr. STERN. What were the conditions of this room and the scene? + +Mr. OLDS. Well, you mean the room where the press conference was +held, where Oswald came in? It was very noisy, and when Oswald came +in it was very confusing. The reporters were yelling at each other to +get out of the way, and they were, the photographers were having a +very bad time with it, and people kept crowding toward the front and +standing on tables so that they could see and hear and Oswald was there +such a brief time, and was not able to be heard beyond the first row +of reporters who were circled around him. Thereafter reporters were +interviewing reporters who were on the front row to see what had been +said, and some sort of confusion existed, and enough of--oh, probably +50 reporters standing around there, and it was a very confusing +situation it seemed. And Oswald had to be brought through the hall on +his way from the interrogation room to his cell, so, he couldn't avoid +being seen, and it was at this time that he was making the statements +that were being quoted. + +Mr. STERN. Did you observe this? + +Mr. OLDS. No; I didn't. I saw this on television, but I could imagine +it from that. + +Mr. STERN. How did he look to you when he was at this press conference? + +Mr. OLDS. He looked remarkably composed and determined. He had a--I +remarked afterwards that I would have been very much distraught, and +he seemed very well self-contained and determined and maintained his +innocence. I heard that, and beyond that scratch above--on his forehead +and the eye that was swollen and the little--he looked all right. + +He looked a little tired, of course, and I think his clothes were +dirty, but he looked remarkably in good shape, I thought. + +Mr. STERN. Did this give you any further assurance that--about the +right to counsel question? + +Mr. OLDS. Possibly so, it was---- + +Mr. STERN. I don't want to put the idea in your head. + +Mr. OLDS. Well, I know, but we had the idea that Oswald was not being +accurate when he said he had been denied, because in our dealings +with the police here, we have had reason to believe that they are +very careful of this sort of thing. And certainly in a case of this +notoriety, certainly, our tendency was to believe that, but I have +always been sorry that we didn't talk with Oswald, because it was not +clear whether we would be permitted to see him that night or not. + +Mr. STERN. But, you did not ask to see him? + +Mr. OLDS. No; we did not, which I think was a mistake on my part. + +Mr. STERN. Did anything transpire on Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. OLDS. Not so much. I was watching television most of the day and +then the matter of counsel was raised, I think, during that day. +During the--I suppose when Oswald was being transferred in the hall +again, and--let's see--this is when Mr. Nichols went down late this +afternoon, I think around 5:30, and he reported after that that he +had seen Oswald in respect to the same reasons that we had for going +down there Saturday night, to see if he wanted some sort of legal +representation, and to make sure whether or not he was denied--being +denied it, and he said that he was satisfied that--in essence, Oswald +told Nichols he was satisfied with the situation. I can detail this +conversation if you would like, as it was told to me. + +Mr. STERN. No. + +Mr. OLDS. Well, that was the essence of what was found out. + +Mr. STERN. Was there any mention of the American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mr. OLDS. Yes; it was at this time that we first heard the idea that +Oswald might be a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and +this surprised us, because we felt we would have had a record of it +in our files, but there is often a lapse of time when a member moves +from one area to another and it takes some time to transfer him to the +local affiliate. To make sure of this I called the national office in +New York City, and it was night, of course there was no one there, but +I finally got a number of one of the staff members and talked to him +at his home in New Jersey and told him about it, and he said, he would +check on the matter. Have somebody in New York, who lived near the +office to go in and see about it, and he did and they found no such +record at that time. + +However, it was later discovered that on November 4, he had sent a +check for $2 to the office, which was, I believe, discovered 3 weeks +later. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Olds, I think that covers the matters that I am +interested in. Is there anything further that you would like to tell +us? Anything that you---- + +Mr. OLDS. Possibly later after this matter was disposed of, we became +interested in the legal status of Oswald's wife, Marina, and a story in +the New York Times, I believe December 19, said something to the effect +that perhaps she was being held incommunicado and in some way illegally +detained. Anyway, her status was not clear as far as the reporter was +concerned, and our national office in New York City got a number of +inquiries both by phone and personal calls and letters, telegrams, and +they asked us in turn then, to see what we could find out about it. +After a certain amount of negotiations with the Secret Service and FBI +and so on, we sent a letter to Mrs. Oswald and she later wrote us that +she was content with her situation, and was very happy with her status, +in fact, it was for her interest. + +Mr. STERN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Olds for coming in today. + +The reporter will transcribe your testimony and you will then be +notified when it is available and afforded an opportunity to read it +and sign it. If you would like to waive that that is possible and the +reporter would send the transcript directly to the Commission. + +Mr. OLDS. I will be glad to sign it. Do you want me to come down here +and do that? + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. OLDS. When do you think it might be? + +Mr. STERN. It should be within the next week or so. + +Mr. OLDS. All right, fine. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF H. LOUIS NICHOLS + +The testimony of H. Louis Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your +right and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. NICHOLS. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. As you know the President's Commission +has been instructed by President Johnson to inquire into all the facts +surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. This morning I +would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey Oswald, +whom I understand you interviewed at the Dallas Police Headquarters. + +Would you state your name and business address? + +Mr. NICHOLS. H. Louis Nichols. 1200 Republic Bank Building, Dallas. + +Mr. STERN. What is your profession? + +Mr. NICHOLS. I am an attorney. + +Mr. STERN. And how long have you been a member of the bar? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Since 1939. + +Mr. STERN. What bars are you a member of? + +Mr. NICHOLS. State Bar of Texas, and admitted to practice in the +Northern District of Texas, Federal Court. + +Mr. STERN. What position do you presently hold with the Dallas Bar +Association? + +Mr. NICHOLS. I am a member of the board of directors for the Dallas +Association, at the present time. During 1963, I was President of the +Dallas Bar Association. + +Mr. STERN. During the calendar year, 1963? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. I see. Would you relate for us, Mr. Nichols, in your own +words, what occurred respecting Lee Harvey Oswald and your inquiry +whether he had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the +period of his detention, which began on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Sometime in the afternoon on Saturday the 23d of November, +as I best recall, in the neighborhood of about 2 o'clock, I received +a phone call from a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who asked me if I +knew whether or not Mr. Oswald was represented by an attorney. + +I told him I did not. He said he had received a phone call from an +eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the East, who told +him that the news media up there were saying that Oswald could not get +a lawyer to represent him in Dallas, and he wanted to know if I knew +anything about the situation. I told him I had not been following it +too closely on television, because I was out Friday and then out with +my boy on Saturday morning and didn't know really whether or not he had +a lawyer. + +And he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted +to know what I knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't +able to get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do +anything about it. I told him I didn't know what the situation was, +but that I would be glad to look into it, and--it had been less than +24 hours since Mr. Oswald had been arrested. In order to refresh my +memory as to what the requirement of the State law is, and since I +don't practice criminal law, I called a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas +who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand what the +obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did +not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation +was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as +he understood it, since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no +legal obligation to appoint an attorney. + +I also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer +friend of mine in Dallas who said he had received a call from a dean of +a law school. One of the calls was from one dean of one law school. The +other was from another. I have forgotten which schools they were, and I +don't remember which called first with regard to the various deans, but +he wanted to know from me whether or not the bar association was doing +anything. Whether Oswald had a lawyer. And whether or not if he didn't +have one, we should do anything about getting him one, and I told him +I had had a previous telephone call from another friend of mine, and +that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not know whether +Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going to +make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second +friend about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district +attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was +represented by a lawyer or not. + +I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because +I had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. I hadn't +talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr. Wade. He +said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew +he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent +Oswald. I asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office +had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for +a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. +I asked him too, as he was going up there, and I asked him if Oswald +requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the +Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he needed one. + +By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation +should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people +might overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be +protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless +of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar +association, ought to look into the matter. + +Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and +he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, +and if Oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer +appointed--he would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen +King, and a captain on the police force that I knew. I used to work for +the city attorney's office, and still represent the city credit union +and have a brother on the police force, so, I have known many of these +people for many years. I called Captain King and asked him whether or +not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an +attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, +and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one +representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a +lawyer. He had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and--or had +not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him--and Captain King said, "If +he does, I am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we +want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to +be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to +have a lawyer." + +I said, "Well, Glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, +or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have +talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that I have +offered to get him a lawyer if he wants one." + +And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down and +talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him." + +I said, "I didn't know whether I wanted to or not at this point." I +hadn't quite decided at that point whether we could do something about +it, and I didn't know whether Oswald had his own attorney, but I told +Captain King if I decided to take him up on his offer I would come and +see him. + +It was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. By that time I had talked to a criminal +lawyer, I had talked to Mr. Wade, I had talked to these two lawyer +friends of mine in trying to decide what, if anything I should do. + +Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald +had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether +he had a lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't--I then received +a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U., and he +wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything +about getting a lawyer for Oswald. I told him what had transpired, what +I had done, and I hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if +anything by me, as president of the bar association. + +He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful +if I would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not +Oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and +hadn't been able to get one, and I told him that I had not decided what +to do, so, I sat around and decided if it had to be done. It seemed +like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people +I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a +lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I +cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or +so in the afternoon. + +Mr. STERN. City hall is where he was confined? + +Mr. NICHOLS. City hall in Dallas, where Oswald was confined. Having +worked there I knew where the chief's office was. + +I knew Captain King, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his +office was in the same place so, I went to the third floor of the city +hall, now called the Police and Courts Building. + +The building in which the police department is located and the jail is +located, and where I assumed Oswald was at that time. I went up to the +third floor, and when I got off the elevator there was just a whole mob +of reporters and photographers and television cameras and cables and so +forth stretched out on that floor. Cables running in both directions, +and I went down into the chief's office, which is the eastern end of +the building, and when I went in there, there were a number of people +in his office, in the reception room, three or four people back in the +chief's office, Chief Curry's office, a number of people, and I asked +one of the officers in the reception room if Captain King was there and +he said, "Well, he didn't think so." + +About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and +motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the +FBI agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president +of the bar association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him +earlier and I had come up there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a +lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the Dallas Bar Association to do +anything. + +The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see +Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to +another part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to +him. If I wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be +convenient with me, and I told him that any place would be all--I just +wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard +to him having a lawyer. So, we then went through a door on the third +floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the +chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said, "Well, just +any place." + +By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated +by bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and +there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the +first door and got to that point and Mr. Oswald was in the center +of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an +officer seated outside there. The chief had the officer open the door, +and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and said that I +was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to see +him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the +chief stepped back and--I don't really know how far away. He was at +least--he was far enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see +him there in the cell. The officer stayed just right outside the door +there. I reintroduced myself to Oswald and told him my name, and that +I was president of the Dallas bar, and that I had come up to see him +about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a +lawyer, and suggested that he sit down. + +So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart. +When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I +came in and then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as +you and I are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I +asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "Well, he really didn't know +what it was all about, that he was--had been incarcerated, and kept +incommunicado," and I said, "Well, I have come up to see whether or not +you want a lawyer, because as I understand--" I am not exactly sure +what I said there, or whether he said something about not knowing what +happened to President Kennedy, or I said that I understood that he was +arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I don't remember +who said what after that. This is a little bit vague. + +I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in +any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was +there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he +said--he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, +and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t. + +Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t. + +Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know +him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," +and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the +police, or talking to--must have been talking to either Captain King +or the chief--I had been told that some effort had been made to get +hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe, +and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At +least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, +but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the +man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew +any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and +he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like +to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." +And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that +organization." + +Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are +members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I +can't get either one of those, and if I can----" + +Mr. STERN. That is either---- + +Mr. NICHOLS. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the American +Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes +in anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in +my innocence"--then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and +said, "as much as he can, I might let him represent me." + +I said, "What I am interested in knowing is right now, do you want me +or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?" + +He said, "No, not now." + +He said, "You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of +these other people to represent me, I might ask you to get somebody to +represent me." + +I said, "Well, now, all I want to do is to make it clear to you, and +to me, whether or not you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do +anything about getting a lawyer right now." + +And he said "No." + +I was satisfied in my own mind that he knew what he was doing, and +that he didn't want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything +right now. So, I left, and as I left the chief asked me whether or not +I wanted to make a statement to the press, and I said, "Well, I don't +know whether I do or not. I don't know whether it is the thing to do or +not." And he said, "Well, they are going to be right outside the door +there, and if you want to say anything this would be an opportunity to +do it." + +He said, "Incidentally, I am very glad you came up here. We don't want +any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer. As +far as I know, he has never asked for one. He has never asked to call +one." + +And I believe the chief mentioned that Mr. Abt's name, but he said, "He +has never asked us to call him." + +He said, "Do you think we have an obligation?" And I said, "I don't +know." + +He said, "I am glad that you came down and talked to him. At least that +takes a problem off of us about not furnishing him a lawyer." + +And so, we--about that time we stepped out of the door and there was +just a whole swarm of photographers and cameramen standing right +there. Right outside the door on the third floor. They came out in the +third floor, reached back down in the third floor, and the chief told +them who I was, and what I had been up there for, and oh, for 4 or 5 +minutes, what turned out to be live television interview, whether or +not--they asked me if I thought he was guilty, and if he had admitted +anything, and I told them that I didn't ask him, and he didn't tell +me, and they merely wanted to know the reason I was up here, and +that interview is something, I assume, that you have, or will be made +available. I don't remember exactly what transpired, and then--but they +asked me what his attitude was, whether he was belligerent and--or +scared, and to me, he appeared to be neither belligerent nor scared. +He appeared to be a man that was pretty calm, I thought, under the +circumstances. He appeared to me that he knew where he was and pretty +much what his rights were with regard to being represented, and he +knew apparently--at least the conversation was that if he didn't get +somebody to represent him that he wanted that he could always fall back +on the bar association, or somebody, and I had told him that I would +see him next week if he wanted me to, and I satisfied myself at least, +to the extent, that the man appeared to know what he was doing. He did +not appear to be irrational. He appeared to be calm. He turned down +my offer of help, and I felt like at that point that was all I needed +to do, and this was later Saturday afternoon, and I had no inkling +that anything else, except maybe that the next week if he didn't get a +lawyer I might hear from him, or check into it, and that's all I know +about Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. STERN. That's quite a complete statement. Let's just cover a few +details. What was his physical condition, as you observed it? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Well, he had a little scratch, or bruise over one eye. I +have forgotten whether over the left or right, but other than that, as +I recall, there were no indication of any other injuries or marks on +him that I could tell. He was dressed, I believe, in a white T-shirt +and slacks, and appeared to me to be in normal condition. I mean, there +was nothing obviously wrong with him from a physical standpoint, as I +could observe. + +Mr. STERN. Did he seem well rested, or tired? + +Mr. NICHOLS. No; he seemed all right. When I went in there he was lying +on his back and he got up and he didn't--he looked like he was calm, +and was rested, and it--didn't appear to have--now this is a guess, +and my own observation, did not appear to me to have been mistreated. +I was interested in observing whether or not he--it looked like he had +been mistreated, because, as a lawyer, I anticipate perhaps that he--if +he had been mistreated, or might claim he had been mistreated it was +something I should have observed at that time, and I observed nothing +to indicate that. + +Mr. STERN. He, I gather, used the word "incommunicado" to describe---- + +Mr. NICHOLS. Yes; that was his word. + +Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate on that, or any--or indicate to you that he +had not been able to see members of his family or other people of his +choice? + +Mr. NICHOLS. No; he did not say that he had been refused anything. Just +didn't elaborate, and I really didn't ask him at that point. My inquiry +was intentionally very limited. I merely wanted to know whether he had +a lawyer, if he had a lawyer then I had no problems. + +If he asked for a lawyer and they did not offer him one, that was +contrary to what I had been told, because I had been told, as far as +the police were concerned, and Mr. Wade, as he recalled, that the man +had never asked for a lawyer. Nor had he asked to call a lawyer, for +the right to call a lawyer, so that I was interested in knowing whether +or not he had a lawyer and whether or not he had requested a lawyer +and been refused, because the story up east was that he couldn't get a +lawyer to represent him, and I knew that that wasn't true, because I +know Dallas lawyers, and I know that if the man had to have a lawyer, +we could have gotten one for him. So, I didn't go into the other +questions, or whether or not he wanted to see his family and hadn't +been permitted. I really was concerned about whether or not he had a +lawyer or wanted a lawyer, or whether we had any obligations to furnish +him one. + +Mr. STERN. Yes; I see. Did he elaborate on his statement to you that +he preferred a lawyer who believed in what he believed in, or was this +as---- + +Mr. NICHOLS. Not at all. He said--I didn't ask him, because I didn't +know any lawyers--and I didn't know what he believed in, and I really +wasn't concerned at that stage in the man's beliefs or what he had +done or not done, actually, I just wanted--the man was in jail, and it +occurred to me that it would be easy to overlook his rights at that +time in view of the great emotion and somebody ought to determine +whether or not he wanted a lawyer, and I decided as president of the +bar association maybe that was my job to do it, so, I went up there to +see about it. + +Mr. STERN. You say he said he wanted a lawyer who believed in his +innocence? + +Mr. NICHOLS. As much as he could. + +Mr. STERN. As he could? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate? + +Mr. NICHOLS. No; and I didn't ask him to elaborate on it because at +that stage I didn't know to what extent I would, or wanted to, or +should become embroiled in the facts. I wanted to know whether he +needed a lawyer, and I didn't anticipate that I would be his lawyer, +because I don't practice criminal law. They asked me, the newspapers +did, and I honestly don't know what my answer would have been if they +had asked me, "Well, will you represent him?" + +We can debate about that now until doomsday. All I know is when I went +up to talk to him I did not anticipate being the lawyer, because I +don't practice criminal law, although, when I talked to Henry Wade he +said, jokingly, I hope it was jokingly, and if the guy wants a lawyer +he was going to request the judge that he appoint me and the president +of the criminal bar association to represent him. I took that to be not +a serious suggestion, because he knows that I don't practice criminal +law, although, on reflection that probably would have been a good +recommendation, since generally, I suppose, that if they appointed the +president of the bar association they couldn't say that he was getting +inferior representation. I am not bragging about that, but normally, +I think that would be the normal reaction that if they appointed the +president of the criminal bar association and the president of the +local bar association then at least the man would be represented. + +Mr. STERN. What is the practice in this jurisdiction regarding the +appointment of counsel for indigents accused in criminal cases? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Basically, I think that would follow the statutes which +provide that where it comes to the attention of the court, that a +man charged with a felony is not represented by an attorney that the +court will appoint an attorney to represent him. The statute further +provides that the attorney appointed to represent indigents be paid +$25 a day for each day actually present at the trial of the case in +court, and not to exceed $100 for the handling of an appeal. The usual +procedure is, I believe, when it comes to the attention of the judge +that an accused in jail is not represented by an attorney--I am talking +about a felony case now--or a man, whether he is in jail or not, if he +makes requests of the court to appoint him a lawyer, the judges of the +criminal district court will, and do appoint lawyers to represent those +people. + +Mr. STERN. But, ordinarily, the appointment is handled by the judiciary? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. And there is no, I take it, organized system of the bar +association to represent indigents? + +Mr. NICHOLS. Well, the criminal--there are two bar associations in +Dallas. One is the criminal bar association, the other is the Dallas +Bar Association, and you may belong to both, or neither, or either +one. The criminal bar association did, last year, attempt to create +and establish a fund to defray some investigative expenses of lawyers +appointed to represent indigents. One of the programs which I had hoped +to get really underway last year when I was president was to, and we +had a committee working on it, was to provide more lawyers who would be +willing to accept appointments to represent indigent defendants in the +criminal cases. My idea was that if we had 100 or 200 lawyers who would +say, "If I am requested to, or appointed by the court, I will represent +these people." And it was my desire to have a large number of lawyers +who would do that. The committee, unfortunately, bogged down and I got +involved in other matters that I guess I considered more urgent to me, +and didn't pursue that, but I did go down and talk to one of the judges +last year just to see what the procedure was because I was interested, +and the judges do appoint these people, I mean, do appoint attorneys +to represent these people, and I talked to one of the judges and he +said that they have never yet had an occasion where he needed a lawyer +to represent a defendant that they haven't been able to get one. So, +although some of these lawyers may do this more than others, as far +as I know, none of them have refused because it was too much of an +imposition on them. + +Mr. STERN. Your activities with respect to Oswald were unusual, though, +and not pursuant to any established arrangement? + +Mr. NICHOLS. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. Something you did because of the nature of the case, and +the questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his +treatment? + +Mr. NICHOLS. That's correct. + +Mr. STERN. Did you, Mr. Nichols, make any notes of your activities on +November 23, 1963, either at the time, or did you at any later time +have occasion to prepare a written report of your activities? + +Mr. NICHOLS. I did not make any notes at the time, and I didn't make +any notes as such, subsequently, after Mr. Oswald was killed. And why, +I don't know. It didn't occur to me to do so. Later Mr. Leon Jaworski, +a Houston, Tex., attorney, called me and said that he was going to +go to Miami, Fla., to the meeting of American Trial Lawyers, and had +been asked to make a report of some sort on the Oswald matter and he +asked me if I would write him a letter outlining what I had done in +connection with interviewing Oswald, and attempting to see whether or +not he wanted the Dallas Bar Association to provide counsel. I did, at +that time, write a letter to Mr. Jaworski outlining as I recalled at +that time exactly what transpired. Later the president of the Houston +Bar Association, George Barrow, called me and said he was going to make +a little talk in Houston, or write a little article in a publication +and would like to know what I had done, and he knew about the letter +I had sent to Jaworski, and wanted to know if I would send him a copy +of my letter to him, or outline what I had done. I said it would be +easier to give him a copy of the letter I had written to Leon, because +I have it, so I sent him a copy and those are the only notes I made +or statements that I have made in writing regarding this transaction +except I did reproduce a copy of the letter to Mr. Jaworski, which I +furnished to you. + +Mr. STERN. I show you now a copy of the letter dated February 10, 1964, +to Mr. Jaworski. Is that the copy you furnished to me? + +Mr. NICHOLS. That is the copy I furnished to you, and the copy of the +letter which I wrote to Mr. Jaworski on that date. + +Mr. STERN. Would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic +copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as Exhibit A. + +Thank you, sir. I believe that completes all the questions I have, Mr. +Nichols. Thank you very much for coming in today. + +Mr. NICHOLS. You certainly are welcome. + +Mr. STERN. The court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we +can furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the +reporter can send the transcript directly to the Commission without +your review, if you care to waive---- + +Mr. NICHOLS. I would like to have a copy of it, if I may do so, and +I understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it +costs--I want to furnish it to the bar association for their records. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS + +The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 9:45 a.m., on May 7, +1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Samuel A. +Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. David W. +Belin, assistant counsel for the President's Commission, and Mr. Fred +B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department were present. + + +Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Sorrels. + +Mr. SORRELS. Good morning, sir. + +Mr. STERN. You understand that this is a continuation of your +deposition, and that you are still under oath? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Yesterday you covered with Mr. Hubert the events that +transpired from the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald +forward.[1] + + [1] That portion of the deposition of Forrest V. Sorrels appears + in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index. + +I would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations +for the President's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of +Oswald. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Would you tell us first something of your experience in +Presidential protection work through the course of your career in the +Secret Service? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the first real assignment that I had in +connection with Presidential work was in 1936, at Dallas, Tex., when +President Roosevelt came there, and there was a parade downtown, +motorcade out to the Cotton Bowl at Fair Park, where he made a talk, +and then from there to the Adolphus Hotel for luncheon, and from the +Adolphus Hotel to Lee Park, where he unveiled a monument, and then +motored to Fort Worth, Tex., where there was a reception committee +that met him on the lawn at the Texas Pacific Railroad Station, and +then motored to a park in Fort Worth where he made a talk, and then +continued on out to his son Elliott's ranch, west of Fort Worth. + +During the time that President Roosevelt was in office, there were a +number of times that he came to Fort Worth to visit his son. + +One in particular that I recall was during the Second World War, when +it was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to +get him into his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the +B-36 was manufactured there at Fort Worth, and get him out of town, and +it was some 2 hours after that before any reporter ever found out and +called our office inquiring about the President. + +I have been to Washington on inaugurations two times that I can recall, +the last one being at the time that President Kennedy was inaugurated. + +I have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. I +have been in Mexico on three different occasions when the President +visited there, to Mexico City, Monterey, the last one being at Falcon +Dam, when the dam was dedicated by the two Presidents of Mexico and the +United States. + +Mr. STERN. That was President Eisenhower? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Have you worked on visits by President Kennedy to Texas +before this? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there--one +a very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to +Dallas to visit Mr. Rayburn in Baylor Hospital. Then when he came to +Bonham, at the time Mr. Rayburn was buried--we had the assignments in +connection with that. + +Mr. STERN. These were informal trips, without publicity? + +Mr. SORRELS. There was publicity. For example, the one that he came to +the hospital, it wasn't announced until about 10 o'clock in the morning +that he would be there. + +He came there, I guess, a little over 2 or 3 hours after that--just a +very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation. + +But, fortunately, everything went real good. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, is there any significant difference that +occurs to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance +arrangements, for the November trip to Dallas by President Kennedy, and +this trip you were telling us about that President Roosevelt made to +Dallas, which involved a similar motorcade, in 1936, I believe you said? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. About the same advance preparation? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Protective organization? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Of course in the one that President Roosevelt came there, it was more +functions and more places to go, including two cities. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. But---- + +Mr. SORRELS. But the actual preparation was along the same lines. + +Mr. STERN. You have been following a procedure and pattern as long as +you have been doing this kind of work? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. It has been pretty much the same procedure? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. STERN. When you know that a President is coming to the area under +your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the +Police Department? + +Mr. SORRELS. We will have a conference with the Chief of Police and his +key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going +to be. + +In some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man +from the White House detail, and for the local committee and the plans +are not entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at +that time is a little bit premature, because I have known of instances +where we have had such meetings and the orders have been cut, and then +they had to be changed, because of some change. + +So, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a +time when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. And that +procedure is followed in every instance. + +In some instances, as I mentioned a moment ago there, when President +Kennedy came to the Baylor Hospital, we didn't have very much time--it +is something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done +in this instance with the Chief of Police and his key men, and the +security was set up on a very, very short notice. + +Mr. STERN. But normally, when you have the time, you like, as I +understand it, to try to make your arrangements---- + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize +that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men +involved, and many things that have to be taken into consideration, so +that their orders can be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the +proper places with a knowledge of what they are supposed to do. + +Mr. STERN. But you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if +there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the +police? + +Mr. SORRELS. We usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, +of course, confer with the police because they may have in instances +knowledge that we don't have about a certain area that it might not be +appropriate to use or to go into. + +Mr. STERN. Let's see if we can relate this now to President Kennedy's +trip to Dallas in November. + +When did you first hear that he was to make this trip, Mr. Sorrels? + +Mr. SORRELS. On November 4, 1963, I received a long distance call from +Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn, of the White House Detail, +stating that the President would probably visit Dallas about November +21, and that there had been a couple of buildings suggested, one of +them being the Trade Mart, which he understood had about 60 entrances +to it, and six catwalks over the area where the luncheon would be. And +that the second choice that had been suggested then was the Women's +Building at the State Fair Grounds. That was another place referred to +as a trade center, which is actually Market Hall, which is across the +street from the Trade Mart. + +He instructed that I make a survey of these buildings and report back +to him the conditions. + +Mr. STERN. What did you do? + +Mr. SORRELS. Accompanied by Special Agent Robert A. Stewart of my +office, we went to the Trade Mart and looked the situation over there, +and we did find that there were entrances coming into, you might call +it, a courtyard where the luncheon was to have been--entrances coming +into that area. And that there were two suspension bridges or catwalks +on the second floor and on the third floor. + +The outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean +that it would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the +entrances that could come on to the balcony, you might say, that was +entirely around on the second and the third floors. + +We then went to the Market Hall, which was ideal insofar as security +measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside +entrances, and it was a huge hall, 107,000 square feet, with no +columns, and you could seat about 20,000 people in there. + +But there was another function going to be there at that time--the +American Bottling Association was going to have, as I recall, an +exhibit there. So that part was out. + +We then went to Fair Park, where we made a survey of the Women's +Building. It is a place where they have exhibits during the fair of all +kinds of handiwork and things like that. + +That building had about 45,000 square feet in it, and you could seat +about 5,000 people in it. Securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because +there were two end openings to the building, and there was actually +an area where you could drive a car in there. But the building was +not satisfactory for that type of function--the President of the +United States coming there--because the ceilings were quite low, the +air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed, there were +many steel suspension supports throughout the area. + +I then returned to my office and telephoned to Mr. Behn and informed +him of my findings and told him that securitywise the Women's Building +appeared to be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take +the President. + +Then---- + +Mr. STERN. What did you tell him about the Trade Mart? + +Mr. SORRELS. I told him that there were many entrances there and that +it would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there. + +Mr. STERN. But did you indicate to him that this could be handled? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether I specifically said it could be +or not. Definitely I was under the impression that if the place was +chosen, we would take the necessary precautions and would have it +properly manned. + +Mr. STERN. You did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think +the Trade Mart would be a safe place? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall I told him it would not be a safe +place, no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. When did all this happen, Mr. Sorrels? Was it immediately +after November 4? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it was on November 4. + +Mr. STERN. What was the next event in your advance preparations for the +President's trip? + +Mr. SORRELS. On November 13, Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, from the +White House detail, and Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, had arrived at Dallas the +evening before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the +office of Mr. A. W. Cullum, President of the Chamber of Commerce, and +we then went to the Trade Mart, and then to the Women's Building at the +State Fairgrounds. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, would you look at this Xerox copy of a two-page +memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated November 30, 1963, +and carries the identifying number CO-2-34030. Can you identify that +for me, please? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on +November 30, 1963. + +Mr. STERN. Did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your +work, or were you specially instructed to make it? + +Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was instructed to make the report, but +it is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such +surveys, in confirmation of the phone calls. + +Mr. STERN. Did you make it from notes that you had or from memory? + +Mr. SORRELS. Both, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or +destroy them? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I preserved them. I have them here--regarding the +phone call and the notes that I made, regarding the survey at the Trade +Mart and Women's Club. + +Mr. STERN. May I see them, please? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And this covers what you have just been telling us about in +connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the President's +visit? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your memorandum of November 30 recently, +Mr. Sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Is there any respect in which you would like to change +anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further +consideration of the events described? + +Mr. SORRELS. There is only one point there, about the date that we went +by the police station. + +Mr. STERN. Where is that covered in your memorandum? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it +is stated that on November 15, that we went to the office of the Chief +of Police Curry. + +I was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. I could +be in error on that. + +Mr. STERN. In any event, it was after Mr. Lawson had arrived, and that +was on November 13? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I might state here that I had previously received two +phone calls from Chief of Police Jesse Curry about the President's trip +there. He was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as +possible, so that they could start their preparations. And he actually +called me before Mr. Lawson got there, and he called me again after Mr. +Lawson had gotten there, before we had gone to see him. And I explained +to the chief that, on the first call, there would be someone from the +White House detail coming to Dallas, and he requested that I get in +touch with him just as soon as he got there. + +On the second call, I told him that the man from the White House detail +had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was +not definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, +and that just as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going +to be, that we would then get in touch with him. + +And it was at my suggestion to Mr. Lawson that we go by the Police +Department on the first time, because I did not want the chief to +feel that we were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. And, for +that reason, I suggested that we go by at the time we did--because, +actually, we were still in the process of having these meetings to work +out the final plans, and so forth. + +Mr. STERN. That is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on +page 1? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is right. + +Mr. STERN. Your memorandum, Mr. Sorrels, gives me enough information on +many of the points we are interested in, and I don't think we have to +cover those, unless you would like to add something to them. + +I would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade +route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that. + +Mr. SORRELS. After it was determined that there was going to be a +motorcade, which was actually after Mr. Lawson got there, we had +discussed the ways to get to the Trade Mart, and one of my questions +was why don't we bring the President from the Texas Hotel to the Trade +Mart by motorcade. + +Mr. STERN. Texas Hotel---- + +Mr. SORRELS. In Fort Worth--because I knew we would be able to pick the +President up at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth, and by motor get him to +the Trade Mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the +Texas Hotel to the Air Force Base, and go by plane to Love Field, and +from Love Field go to the Trade Mart. + +But that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to +come by plane. And, of course, it would not have been practical to +have brought him by motor from Fort Worth if there was going to be a +downtown parade, because it would have meant coming in from the west +side of the city, and we would have to go right back to the west side +of the city to get to the Trade Mart, which would have meant a complete +loop through the downtown section. + +So when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade, +Mr. Lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to +take him to the Trade Mart from Love Field. + +So Mr. Lawson and I drove what I thought would be the best route and +the most direct route to the Trade Mart, bearing in mind that there +would be a parade through the downtown section. + +So we drove that route. And then later on we had the police go with us, +and we went over the same route. + +There were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be +better to get onto what we have known as the Central Expressway there, +and come off of it into Main Street. But that was ruled out because of +safety measures, going into the expressway, and it would only be for +such a short distance. + +Another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see +him, that would not have any opportunity to see him on the Central +Expressway. + +So the route that we chose was from Love Field approach to Mockingbird +Lane, left on Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle, right +on Turtle Creek to Cedar Springs, left on Cedar Springs to Harwood, +right from Harwood on Main Street, continue down Main Street to Houston +Street, and then make a right-hand turn to Elm Street and then under +the underpass to Stemmons Expressway, which was the most direct route +from there and the most rapid route to the Trade Mart. + +Mr. STERN. Excuse me--you said right-hand turn to Elm. I think you mean +left. + +Mr. SORRELS. A right-hand turn on Houston--I am sorry--and a left-hand +turn on Elm. + +Now, Elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have +gone, but that street is not the street that they use for parades. + +Main Street is right through the heart of the city. It is the best +choice for parades. It gives an opportunity for more people--tall +buildings on the side of the street--and it is almost invariably--every +parade that is had is on Main Street. The one in 1936, when President +Roosevelt was there, was the same route in reverse, so to speak. + +We came up on Houston Street from Union Station, turned right on Main +Street, right on Main Street, through the very heart of the town. + +Mr. STERN. And went right past the School Book Depository then on +Houston Street? + +Mr. SORRELS. Just within 1 block of it, because we were coming, in that +instance, from the Union Station, which is south of the Depository, +to Main Street, right on Main Street, which is just 1 block from the +Depository. + +Mr. STERN. I take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a +motorcade, and approximately 45 minutes was allotted to the motorcade, +this route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether +to use the expressway or Harwood Street to get on to Main Street, is +that right? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. STERN. Why didn't you route the motorcade on Main Street under the +triple overpass and on to Stemmons Freeway that way, instead of going +to Houston and Elm? + +Mr. SORRELS. Well, because you cannot get to the entrance to Stemmons +Expressway on Main Street. The traffic is not routed that way. It is +impractical. + +On the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to +prevent cars from cutting in from Main Street to get over to Elm Street +there. And if a person would go from--try to go from Main Street over +to Stemmons Expressway, they would have to either hurdle this built-up +place there, island, you might call it, or an extension of an island---- + +Mr. STERN. Do you know what this built-up place is constructed of? + +Mr. SORRELS. It is, I am sure, asphalt, or concrete--probably concrete. +You would have to go down on Main Street, pass where you would +ordinarily turn off, and then come back against traffic, which would +be one way that way, and make a hairpin turn, and come back and get on +there. It just is not done. + +Mr. STERN. Could that reverse-S turn which you have described have been +done conveniently with a car the size of the Presidential limousine? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, +because it would be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is +built there is there specifically to prevent anyone from getting over +on the wrong way there. + +Mr. STERN. When you laid out the motorcade route and drove over it--and +I take it you drove over it several times-- + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you consider or discuss with Mr. Lawson the possibility +of any danger to the President from the buildings along the route? + +Mr. SORRELS. Well---- + +Mr. STERN. Did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any +particular problem? + +Mr. SORRELS. All buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned. +That, insofar as I have been concerned--and I am sure that every member +of the Service, especially the Detail--that is always of concern to +us. We always consider it a hazard. During the time that we were +making this survey with the police, I made the remark that if someone +wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with +a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some +hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the +buildings. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks +in that conversation? Did anybody respond to that remark? Only if you +recall. + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any particular response. Probably there was +confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had any +experience in security measures would have the same opinion. I don't +recall anyone specifically making any comment like that. + +Mr. STERN. But there was no suggestion that anything might be done to +minimize that risk? + +Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what we always do--try to scan the +windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action. + +Mr. STERN. When you went over the parade route with the police +officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to +use? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they did. + +Mr. STERN. And there was no concern expressed by them that some other +route might be better for some reason? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. I would like you now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of +the Protective Research activities that took place in preparation for +the President's visit to Dallas, that you recall. + +Mr. SORRELS. At that time, we had no known Protective Research subjects +that we were making periodic checks on in that area. Mr. Lawson +informed me that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed. + +However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some +time before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John +Joe Howlett, to work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police +Department, and I also conferred by phone with the chief of police at +Denton, Tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in +the Stevenson affair were going to college there. + +Mr. STERN. What was the Stevenson affair, as far as you knew? + +Mr. SORRELS. That was an instance where a number of people were at a +theatre, as I recall it, theatre building, when Mr. Stevenson came out, +and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit +him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon Mr. +Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. And +I did not want any such instance to happen when the President of the +United States was there. + +Mr. STERN. How soon had that happened before the President's visit? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't remember. It was probably some 60 days, maybe, +before. + +It was quite some time before. + +But within recent time. And so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed +me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the +situation. I arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant +Revill to accompany Special Agent Howlett to Denton, and confer with +the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals. + +When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor +of the Dallas Times Herald, I learned that--from him--that they had +photographs taken at the Stevenson incident. So arrangements were made +whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the Dallas Police +Department, together with the informant in the case, would view those +films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to +have been in the incident. + +We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special +agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers +that were assigned out in that area. + +Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur in the field of Protective Research? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is all I can recall at the present time. + +Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI +of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should +check into. On October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI +reported a person, a member supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in Denison, +Tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some +trouble if and when the President came to that area. + +Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was +checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at +that time. + +Mr. STERN. Did the FBI report anything else to your office? + +Mr. SORRELS. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special +Agent Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of +handbills which bore a picture of the President of the United States, +Mr. Kennedy, with the caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of +numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason. + +Mr. STERN. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet? + +Mr. SORRELS. I had previously received the information early in the +morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found +on the streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill, +and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on +the street. We could not from the police investigation or from our +inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them. + +And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time. + +Mr. STERN. Did the Dallas police give you any information of this +nature--I am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the +Protective Research area, in advance of the President's trip? + +Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with +Lieutenant Revill's department there. + +Mr. STERN. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person +or group that might present a danger to the President? + +Mr. SORRELS. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that +were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be +the type that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills, +but with placards in the area where the President might appear. And it +developed that they did show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and +they were taken into custody by the police department. + +Mr. STERN. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would +be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be +taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And +it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere +fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. But +that we did not want them close enough to where the President would +come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to +the President or the Vice President or members of their families. + +There had recently been passed in Dallas an ordinance making it +unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or +intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or +public assembly was being held. We obtained copies of that ordinance +and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in +the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to +be enforced. + +Mr. STERN. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record +of any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that +Lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area +in his advance check before he left Washington. Did this surprise +you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified +as potential threats to the President in the territory of the Dallas +office? + +Mr. SORRELS. No. We had records of some subjects that were in +institutions, but they were not out where they would be available. + +Mr. STERN. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the Dallas +office, PRS subjects who were not in institutions? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. STERN. But there were none at this particular time? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is right. + +Mr. STERN. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had +occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants +and referring that information to the Protective Research Section in +Washington for their files? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come +to that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no +actual threat, nor was the President of the United States involved in +name or otherwise, insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson +affair. + +Mr. STERN. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and +local officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential +danger to the President? + +Mr. SORRELS. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or +something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal +offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the +President of the United States have certainly in the past, to my +recollection--I don't recall any specific instance--but I do know we +have received such reports. + +Mr. STERN. And from the local police authorities? + +Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that +in the past there have been instances where such a report has been +reported to us. + +Mr. STERN. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of +information in which you would be interested in this area? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the +Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the +auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas +Police Department. + +We have participated in schools at Austin, Tex., given by the +Department of Public Safety to investigative officers, to +sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs. + +We have participated at Texas A & M College, at College Station, Tex., +in their program of police training, where they have students that +are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement +organizations that attend their classes. + +And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the +protective measures that are required and taken in connection with +the protection of the President of the United States, members of his +family, and the Vice President. + +Mr. STERN. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices +of Federal agencies? + +Mr. SORRELS. I consider it very, very good. + +Mr. STERN. In all respects? + +Mr. SORRELS. In all respects; yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI +or Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection +measures for the day of the President's visit? + +Mr. SORRELS. I had offers from some of the other agencies, offering +their services in case there was anything they could assist in. + +The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local +officials, police department, sheriff's department, Department of +Public Safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take +care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always +suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if +any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything +unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch +with us immediately, along those lines. + +Mr. STERN. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply +all the outside assistance you needed for this visit? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has +some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, +and due to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years +I know these people personally, and I have never yet called upon the +Dallas Police Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of +Public Safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten +cheerfully and willingly. + +For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to +see Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a +matter of 2 or 3 hours before the President would get there, that he +was coming, because the afternoon before, when I heard that he was +coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not +supposed to be any publicity about it. + +The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10 +o'clock in the morning. + +Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the +hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in +a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be +blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around +the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made +to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there. + +I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, +not only in the Dallas area, but throughout Texas, is as good as it can +be any place in the country. + +Mr. STERN. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied +all the manpower you felt was necessary? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Were all the police that had various functions along the +motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels? + +Mr. SORRELS. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary +police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. +I am not sure about that. + +They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are +not armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed. + +And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But +I do know that they use them on occasion. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our +interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn +now to the actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance +preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's +memorandum, which I am about to introduce. + +Mr. SMITH. I have no questions. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum +Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964. + +Would you initial each page, please? + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of +November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a +passenger in the motorcade and thereafter. + +In what car were you riding in the motorcade? + +Mr. SORRELS. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the +one immediately in front of the President's car. + +Mr. STERN. What was your function in the lead car? + +Mr. SORRELS. To be there with the special agent who had made the +survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and +buildings as we drove along in the motorcade. + +Mr. STERN. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings +and the windows of the buildings? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Looking for what? + +Mr. SORRELS. We always do that. + +Mr. STERN. What would you be looking for? + +Mr. SORRELS. Anything that to us might mean danger. + +For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or +something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. Or +if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or +toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the +windows as you drove along Main Street? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on Main Street. +The street was full of people. I made the remark "My God, look at the +people. They are even hanging out the windows." Because I had observed +many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along. + +Mr. STERN. Now, as you made the right turn from Main Street onto +Houston Street, did you observe anything about the windows of any +building in your view? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand +side, and the windows there appeared to be closed. + +Mr. STERN. To the right-hand side of Houston Street? + +Mr. SORRELS. Of Houston Street; yes, sir. + +The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on Houston Street, of +course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of +the street. I saw that building, saw that there were some windows open, +and that there were some people looking from the windows. I remember +distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows +almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors +down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I +may have seen there. I don't recall any specific instance. But I did +not see any activity--no one moving around or anything like that. + +Mr. STERN. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows +of the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. I did, yes; because it was right in front. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to +your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far +right side of the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was at least one or two windows that were +open in that section over there. I do not recall seeing anyone in any +of those windows. I do not, of course, remember seeing any object or +anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing +out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around that I saw +at all. + +Mr. STERN. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the +side of the building facing you? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of +the street. + +Mr. STERN. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan. + +Mr. STERN. And you were in the rear seat? + +Mr. SORRELS. Right rear. + +Mr. STERN. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. STERN. But you were still able to observe the whole building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to--as far over to the +right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of +course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I +would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the +view of the window on the left. + +Mr. STERN. You didn't have your head actually out of the window? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window. + +Mr. STERN. As you turned into Houston Street, Mr. Sorrels, can you +estimate how far in front of the President's car the lead car was? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, probably about 30 feet--fairly close. + +Mr. STERN. As you approached the Book Depository Building along Houston +Street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of +the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out +from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as +you approach. + +But we turned to the left on Main Street, and at that time just +glancing by, I could see the side of the building from the window where +I was sitting in the car. + +Mr. STERN. I believe you mean left onto Elm Street. + +Mr. SORRELS. Elm Street--I am sorry. + +Mr. STERN. So that when you turned from Houston left onto Elm, you +again had a look at the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we +pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually +more than a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you +can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by +the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you +would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not +be able to see the building after you got a little distance down Elm +Street there. + +Mr. STERN. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as +your car negotiated this turn onto Elm Street? + +Mr. SORRELS. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the +crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn. + +Mr. STERN. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the +building at that time? + +Mr. SORRELS. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw +all the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made +the turn. But then I was looking at the people along the side of Elm +Street, along each side. + +Mr. STERN. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into Houston +Street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in +time? + +Mr. SORRELS. On Houston Street? + +Mr. STERN. Yes. As you turned right off Main onto Houston Street, the +building first came into view. + +Mr. SORRELS. That is right. + +Mr. STERN. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured +your view? + +Mr. SORRELS. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came +to the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in +front, and I just looked at it, and looking at the people along the +side, and as we were making the turn I was just glancing like that, and +saw the building. + +I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after +making the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that +direction, until after the first shot. + +Mr. STERN. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then, +because you were looking at other things? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently +and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the +building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had +been doing during the entire motorcade route. + +Mr. STERN. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer +than that, or can you estimate? + +Mr. SORRELS. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes. + +Mr. STERN. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows +along that side, is it not? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven +stories high. + +Mr. STERN. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the +windows, or is it a general impression. + +Mr. SORRELS. Just a general impression. + +In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or +anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building +there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in +them--that is all. There wasn't any activity or anything like that that +I saw. + +Mr. STERN. Now, as you turned left from Houston onto Elm and looked +again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had +before? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of +course, getting in front of the building, I just glanced out--just as +we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd +and the building, just a glance at it at that time. + +Mr. STERN. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the +building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see +the whole building. + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I +looked up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I +looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced +up--I would not say that I saw the entire building at all at that time. + +Mr. STERN. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that +you observed no one there with a weapon? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Or any other implement? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. That several windows were open on the side of the building +at different places? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And that the only people you observed were at one particular +location? + +Mr. SORRELS. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two +colored men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing--specifically +seeing anyone else. There may have been some one other person over +there. But I do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand +side of the building, where the window was open. I do not recall that. + +Mr. STERN. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was +in what part of the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the +distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far. + +Mr. STERN. And about two stories down? + +Mr. SORRELS. From the top; yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first +turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm? + +Mr. SORRELS. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building +I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after +that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would +not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the +building, unless I put my head almost out the window. + +But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the +people as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time. + +Mr. STERN. When you looked at the crowd along Houston and Elm, did you +notice anything unusual? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. STERN. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much +detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next. + +Mr. SORRELS. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn +on Elm Street there. As a matter of explanation, Elm Street goes at a +downgrade--in other words, as I said a moment ago, it makes more than +a left-hand--oblique left-hand turn. It curves back--I mean it is more +of a sharp angle than a right angle. And then it swings down a little +curve to go into the underpass. + +There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing +in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and +Houston Streets. + +We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late. + +Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the +schedule. + +I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the +turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand +turn. + +Then I looked back to the right. + +Mr. STERN. How close was the President's car? + +Mr. SORRELS. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several +car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed. + +Mr. STERN. You think somewhat further than you estimated before? + +Mr. SORRELS. As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on +Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I +remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, "I wish he would come on, +because we are late now," or words to that effect. + +And I expressed to him, I said, "Oh, we are not going to be very late." + +And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30. + +And I said, "We are not going to be over 5 minutes late," and the Chief +of Police, I believe, spoke up and said, "We are about 5 minutes away +now." + +And so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were 5 +minutes away. + +And it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was +heard. + +Mr. STERN. Now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot? + +Mr. SORRELS. I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire +of an automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a +firecracker. + +I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this +terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the +back and up in that direction. + +At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was +way back in the back. + +Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I +said, Let's get out of here and looked back, all the way back, then, +to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement +there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. + +And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand +side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?" + +He said, "Yes." + +He said, "Lead us to the hospital." + +And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, +and said, Surround the building. He didn't say what building. He just +said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten almost in +under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost +abreast of us. + +When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get +going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want +them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front. + +And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car +and we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest +hospital. + +Mr. STERN. Let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again. + +You testified that you heard three reports? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Are you pretty certain about that? + +Mr. SORRELS. Positive. + +Mr. STERN. And no more and no fewer? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these +reports? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was to me about twice as much time between the +first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots. + +Mr. STERN. Can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the +third shot? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I have called it out to myself, I have timed it, and +I would say it was very, very close to 6 seconds. + +Mr. STERN. It sounds like you can still hear the shots. + +Mr. SORRELS. I will hear them forever--it is something I cannot wipe +from my mind ever. + +Mr. STERN. And you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time? + +Mr. SORRELS. After--as I said before, on the first shot, it was too +sharp to be a backfire of an automobile. It just didn't sound like +that at all. And then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as +they did, and the confusion, there was no question, because I said, +"Get out of here," meaning to move out, because certainly if there is +anything going on like that, we don't want to even be stationary or +near stationary--it is to get out of the vicinity as quickly as we can +from the source of danger. I thought in my mind--my thought was that I +should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so forth. +There was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast. + +Mr. STERN. Now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you +feel that all three reports came from the same direction? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Definitely so. + +Mr. STERN. And that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what? + +Mr. SORRELS. To the right and back. That is about the only way I can +express it. + +And, as I said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have +come back up on the terrace there. And that is the reason I was looking +around like that when the first shot. And I continued to look out until +the other two shots. And then I turned on around and looked back to +where the President's car was, and that is when I saw some movement +there, and the car just seemed to leap forward. + +Mr. STERN. When you looked at the terrace to the right of Elm Street, +did you observe any unusual movement? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't see anything unusual at that time. + +Mr STERN. Were you looking at that terrace when either the second or +third shot was fired? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I was. And I saw just some movement of some people, +but no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out +rather rapidly. And we were quite a ways down the street at that time. + +Mr. STERN. How do you mean movement of people? + +Mr. SORRELS. It seems I recall someone turned around and was going in +the other direction, like moving away from the street. And that is all +I can recall. + +Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that +the shots might have been fired from that terrace there? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. It sounded to you at first as though it came from there? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is the way it sounded--back into the rear and to the +right, back up in that direction. And in the direction, of course, of +the building. + +But the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me--in +other words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and +that is the reason I looked there. + +As we were approaching the overpass there, Mr. Lawson remarked that +there was an officer on the overpass there. I saw a police officer +standing there, with two or three other persons over to his right. + +Mr. STERN. Where is this? + +Mr. SORRELS. On the overpass, on Elm Street, after we leave the corner +of Elm and Houston. + +There was no activity there. They were just standing there. + +And I remarked, as I recall. "A policeman is there," or words to that +effect, because Mr. Lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of +the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one +of the specific things that was checked all the way through. + +Mr. STERN. And you observed nothing unusual on the overpass? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or +spread out over the overpass? + +Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, the police officer was about the center +of the overpass on Elm Street, and then to his right--I mean to my +right which would have been his left, there seemed to be, as I recall +it, about three other persons up there that appeared to be workmen or +dressed like that, and they were to his right. + +They were not right close together, but standing within walking +distance. + +Mr. STERN. As far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the +overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity. + +Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots +might have come from the overpass? + +Mr. SORRELS. None whatsoever; no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And are you certain in your own mind that they did not come +from the overpass? + +Mr. SORRELS. Positive. + +Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not +have come from the Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been +consistent with your hearing of the shots? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; they would have. + +Mr. STERN. What happened next, Mr. Sorrels? + +Mr. SORRELS. We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could. + +Mr. STERN. Did you go into the hospital? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not go into the hospital. + +Of course the lead car was in front. We went around to the emergency +entrance. I jumped out of the car, and I expected to see stretchers +there, out waiting, but they were not. And I ran to the entrance door +there, and at that time they began to bring stretchers out, and I said, +"Hurry up and get those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one +of the police officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers +out. + +There was a lot of confusion around at that time. + +And they did get the stretchers out. And then Mr. Johnson--they brought +him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. And they took Mr. +Connally in, loaded him first, and then the President, and just as +quick as they got in there, I immediately went into a police car that +was leaving and asked them to take me to the building as fast as they +could, and when I said the building I meant the one on the corner +there, which was the Book Depository. + +Mr. STERN. Why did you designate the Book Depository? + +Mr. SORRELS. Because I wanted to get there and get something going in +establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. And upon +arrival at the Book Store, we pulled up on the side, and I went in the +back door. + +Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Had you heard any mention of the Book +Depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I never heard anything. + +Mr. STERN. And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came +from the Book Depository? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't know at that time. + +Mr. STERN. You just wanted to get to that general area? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses +around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity. + +And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door. + +There were people moving around. + +I asked, "Where is the manager here?" + +Mr. STERN. Just a minute. + +How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired +until the time you returned to the Book Depository? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, +because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and +I wasn't there very long. + +And we came back as fast as we could. + +Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because +traffic was moving. + +The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear +sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the +Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. +And that was cleared out. + +But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under +lights and siren, as fast as we could. + +But there was traffic that slowed us up some. + +Mr. STERN. So you estimate not more than 20 minutes? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 +minutes at the very most. + +Mr. STERN. Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did +you see any police officers outside the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I +could not say any specific one. + +Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man +standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just +standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew +what happened. + +And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?" + +He said, "No, sir." + +Did you see anyone leave the back way? + +No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you get his name? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I +figured he was an employee of the building. + +I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager +and they pointed to Mr. Truly. + +I identified myself to Mr. Truly. + +Mr. STERN. Just a minute. + +Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. STERN. There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform +when you came up? + +Mr. SORRELS. I did not see one; no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And you were able to enter the building without identifying +yourself? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Then you got inside the building and what did you do? + +Mr. SORRELS. I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. +He was standing there. + +I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a +stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and +addresses of every employee of the building, in the building." + +And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see +anything?" + +And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan. + +Mr. STERN. What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees +of the building? + +Mr. SORRELS. Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I +was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in +that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to +be talked to later. + +In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something. + +Mr. STERN. You were looking for potential witnesses? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any +employee might be involved one way or the other? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots +came from the building. + +When I was--when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told +him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what +he had seen. And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew +definitely that any shots had come from the building. + +Mr. STERN. Now, what precisely did Mr. Brennan tell you? + +Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Brennan said that he was standing across the street, +watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the +direction where the President was, and he heard a sound which he +thought at first was a backfire of an automobile. And that shortly +afterwards there was another sound, and that he thought that somebody +might be throwing firecrackers out of the building. + +And he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window +on the right-hand side, the second floor from the top. + +And he said, "I could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him +fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in +and moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be. + +Mr. STERN. How did you happen to talk to Mr. Brennan? + +Mr. SORRELS. I asked--I don't know who, someone there--"Is there anyone +here that saw anything?" And someone said, "That man over there." + +He was out in front of the building and I went right to him. + +Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else? + +Mr. SORRELS. I asked him whether or not he thought he could identify +the person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of +him, said that he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared +to be a light jacket or shirt or something to that effect, and that he +thought he could identify him--said he was slender build. Because I was +definitely interested in someone that had seen something that could +give us some definite information. + +And I also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a +young colored boy there, by the name of Euins. And I got him and Mr. +Brennan, and I took them over to the sheriff's office where we could +get statements from them. + +Mr. STERN. What was the name of that young man? + +Mr. SORRELS. Euins, I believe it is, or pretty close to that. + +Mr. STERN. Did you interview Mr. Euins? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the +noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window +with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he +said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored +or white. + +Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything unusual about the way Mr. Brennan +was dressed? + +Mr. SORRELS. He was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a +hard hat. + +Mr. STERN. Construction hat? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else about anything else +he had observed at that time? + +Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific thing. + +Mr. STERN. Did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the +windows of the Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether he did or did not. + +Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about observing anyone leave the Book +Depository Building hurriedly after the shooting? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did he point out to you precisely the window from which he +said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Where was that window in relation to the windows at which +you saw several Negro men as you drove on Houston Street? + +Mr. SORRELS. It was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as I +recall it. + +Mr. STERN. Can you give us these directions in terms of compass points? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. That would be on the east side of the building. + +Mr. STERN. So the window that Mr. Brennan pointed out to you was on the +extreme east side? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And the window or windows at which you had observed several +Negro men was more to the west? + +Mr. SORRELS. A little bit more to the west--not very much--but to the +west, on the floor below. + +Mr. STERN. Are you certain in your mind about the floor below? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I am. + +Mr. STERN. Is there any particular reason for that? You said before +that you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long +to observe it, and you saw these men at the window. + +What makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor? + +Mr. SORRELS. Well, because I remember that they were not near the +top--I can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down +from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got +back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor +below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men. + +Mr. STERN. So it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is right. + +Mr. STERN. And are you certain that those were the same open windows? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I think they were. I don't have any reason to think +otherwise. + +Mr. STERN. Then you accompanied Brennan and Euins where? + +Mr. SORRELS. To the sheriff's office, which was right across the street +from the Book Depository. + +Mr. STERN. Did you have any further conversation with them on the way +over there? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; we discussed--I was talking to him on the way +over there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would +like to come in there where we could get their statements down in +writing. + +Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything that you have not already told us? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. + +The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy +that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran +off. He said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make +any effort to get in touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing. + +Mr. STERN. Then you took them into the sheriff's office? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. What was going on in the sheriff's office? + +Mr. SORRELS. At that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the +interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. And I +did not want to just stay there and wait too long, so I asked him would +he also write up the statements on it--Mr. Brennan and the colored boy. +And I then started out in the hall of the sheriff's office there with +the idea of going back to see if I could locate other witnesses, when +Chief Deputy Sheriff Mr. Allan Sweatt told me there was another witness +across the hallway, near Mr. Sweatt's office--he is the polygraph +operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the sheriff's +office but across the hall--that there was an FBI agent taking a +statement over there from a person. + +So I accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a +few minutes until Mr. Sweatt came and called me out and says "Forrest, +there are some people here I think you ought to talk to." + +Mr. STERN. Whose statement was being taken by the FBI? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall. And, at that time---- + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall what their statement was--what their testimony +was? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't, because I wasn't in there but just a very +short time. And this FBI agent was questioning about what they had seen +and so forth. I don't recall--it was being taken down at the time. + +So I went out, and they had Mr. and Mrs. Arnold there. And Mr. Arnold, +a young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing +on the side of the street on Houston Street, there by the courthouse +building, and that they--this is prior to the time of the arrival of +the President there, some 20 to 25 minutes beforehand, he said. + +Mr. STERN. This is the east side? + +Mr. SORRELS. That would be the east side of Houston Street. + +Mr. STERN. Are you certain about the name of this couple? I believe you +said Arnold. + +Mr. SORRELS. Well---- + +Mr. STERN. Could that have been his first name? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that could have been his first name. + +Mr. STERN. Can you recall his second name? + +Mr. SORRELS. I would know it if I heard it. + +Mr. STERN. Could it have been Roland? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Roland is right. + +Mr. STERN. What did they tell you? + +Mr. SORRELS. He said that they were standing there waiting for the +President to come by, and they were talking about security. And he said +that right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, +which is the Book Depository, and that there were a couple of windows +open towards the west side, and that he saw a man standing in there +with what appeared to be a rifle with a telescopic sight. + +Mr. STERN. Towards the west side? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes--two windows towards the west side. + +And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service +man." + +And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her +glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, +of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How +could you determine--what made you think it had a telescopic sight on +it?" + +He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background." + +I said, "How was he holding it?" + +He said, port arms--he was standing several feet back away from the +window. + +And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?" + +He said, "No, I could not." + +Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her? + +Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not +see anything, because she didn't have her glasses. + +Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the +windows of the Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that he did. I don't recall that at all. He +may have, but I don't recall that. + +Mr. STERN. Did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly +on the extreme east side of the sixth floor? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall that he mentioned anyone there. + +Mr. STERN. What was your impression of what he told you? + +Mr. SORRELS. Well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is +why--he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in +there and said, Look, I saw a man with a rifle over there. + +I said, "Why didn't you say something to somebody about it?" + +He said, "I just thought he was a Secret Service man." + +And at that time he appeared to be, as far as I was concerned, truthful +about the matter. + +Mr. STERN. You didn't have any reason to doubt him? + +Mr. SORRELS. No. + +Mr. STERN. And would the same be true of what Mr. Brennan told you, and +Euins? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you look towards the window that Roland had pointed out +from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was +possible to observe from there someone standing several feet back from +the window? Did you have occasion to check that? + +Mr. SORRELS. Well, no, not specifically. + +Later on I heard that he had--I believe in his statement that he wrote +up down there at the sheriff's office, something about 15 feet back. +And I thought to myself, well, I don't think you could see anybody that +far back. + +Mr. STERN. But he didn't tell you that? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, he just said he was standing back of the window there, +just kind of looking around there. He said after he saw him there, he +didn't pay any more attention, because he just thought it was a Secret +Service man. + +Mr. STERN. What happened next? + +Mr. SORRELS. There was another witness there that I started talking +to--I don't recall the name now, because I told him to go in--somebody +that saw a truck down there--this is before the parade ever got +there--that apparently had stalled down there on Elm Street. And I +later checked on that, and found out that the car had gone dead, +apparently belonged to some construction company, and that a police +officer had come down there, and they had gone to the construction +company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the way. + +Apparently it was just a car stalled down there. + +But this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they +had a guncase. But then I didn't pursue that any further--because then +I had gotten the information that the rifle had been found in the +building and shells and so forth. + +At that time Mr. Harry McCormack, who is a reporter for the Dallas +Morning News, and whom I have known for many years, came to me and +says, "Forrest, I have something over here you ought to know about." + +I said, "What have you got here?" + +He said, "I have a man over here that got pictures of this whole thing." + +I said, "Let's go see him." + +So we went on to a building at the corner of Elm and Houston, on the +east side of Houston, and across the street from the court house +building there, and up to the office of a Mr. Zapruder, they have a +dress manufacturing place there in that building. And he was there with +another man connected with the business there, and apparently some +magazine representatives there. And Mr. Zapruder was real shook up. He +said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these pictures, +that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says, +"My God, I saw the whole thing. I saw the man's brains come out of his +head." + +And so I asked Mr. Zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy +of those films. + +He said, yes. + +So then accompanied by Mr. Zapruder, and this other gentleman in the +business there with him, whose name I don't recall at the moment, and +Mr. McCormack, we went then to the Dallas Morning News Building, which +is about three blocks from Mr. Zapruder's building, three or four +blocks from there, with the idea of getting those films developed right +away. + +There was no one there that would tackle the job. We then went to the +television section, WFAA, of the Dallas Morning News, to see if we +could get them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not +attempt to do that, but they did assist us by calling Eastman Kodak +Co., and they said if we came out there right away, that they would get +right on it. + +We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., +and while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still +pictures, and I arranged with him for us to get copies of those. + +Mr. STERN. What was his name--do you recall? + +Mr. SORRELS. He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on West Commerce +Street--Mr. Willis. + +And so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of +the pictures. + +At that time, I made a phone call to my office, because I had not been +in contact with them since we had departed from Love Field. I was +informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain +Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, +that he had a suspect in custody. + +Mr. STERN. About what time was that? + +Mr. SORRELS. That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine. + +Mr. STERN. About an hour after you had returned---- + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I would say that it was at least that long--maybe a +little bit longer. + +So when I got that information, I told Mr. Zapruder that I would +contact him later and get the pictures, because I wanted to get right +down to Captain Fritz' office. + +So I left then with the same police car and had them take me to Captain +Fritz' office. + +And upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there +was already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of +the city hall down there. And there was a number of officers in the +detective bureau office there, and Captain Fritz' office, which is an +office within the large office, was closed, and the blinds were drawn +in his office there. + +I did not knock on the door or anything, because I did not want to +interfere with him if he was talking to someone. So I just waited there +until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found +out to be Oswald in custody at the time. + +And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to +this man when I have an opportunity." + +He said, "You can talk to him right now." + +And he just took him on back around to the side of Captain Fritz' +office, and there was a number of other officers there, might have been +some FBI agents, too, there, because there were numbers of FBI agents +around in that vicinity almost all the time from that time on. And some +of the detectives there. + +And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and +he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him. + +And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops." + +And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and I +am with the United States Secret Service, and here is my commission +book." + +I held it out in front of him and he said, "I don't want to look at it." + +And he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. And he said, +"What am I going to be charged with? Why am I being held here? Isn't +someone supposed to tell me what my rights are?" + +I said, "Yes, I will tell you what your rights are. Your rights are +the same as that of any American citizen. You do not have to make a +statement unless you want to. You have the right to get an attorney." + +Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? + +No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney. + +Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? + +I said, "No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if I got +you an attorney, they would say I was probably getting a rakeoff on the +fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break +the ice a little bit there. + +I said, "You can have the telephone book and you can call anybody you +want to." + +I said, "I just want to ask you some questions. I am in on this +investigation. I just want to ask you some questions." + +Mr. STERN. Was there anything further said about an attorney? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall at that time. I don't recall anything +further said about an attorney. I asked him where he worked. He told me +worked at this Book Depository. And as I recall it, I asked him what +his address was, and where he was living, and he explained to me that +he was living apart from his wife, and that she was living over in +Irving, Tex. I asked him, as I recall it, what his duties were at this +Book Depository, and he said filling orders. + +I asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and he +said, yes. + +I asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the +building. He said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors. + +But he said most of his activity was down on the first floor. + +And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign +country, and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had +been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it. + +And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions." + +And so the conversation was terminated. + +Mr. STERN. Did he give you his address? + +Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't +remember what it was offhand. + +Mr. STERN. Then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse +to answer any more? + +Mr. SORRELS. He just said, "I don't care to answer any more questions." + +Mr. STERN. You wanted to ask him other questions? + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. STERN. And what happened then? + +Mr. SORRELS. He was taken by the officers, as I recall it, and was +taken out of that area and I suppose put back in jail. + +Mr. STERN. Did you then talk to Captain Fritz? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I recall it, I asked Captain Fritz whether or not +he had gotten anything out of him or not, and Captain Fritz said that +he hadn't been able--that he had not made any admissions or anything +like that at that time, and that he was going to talk to him again. + +That is all I recall that transpired at that time. + +Of course I contacted the Chief's office, when I got that information +as to who he was, and gave that information to them. + +Mr. STERN. This is Chief Rowley? + +Mr. SORRELS. I think I talked to Deputy Chief Paterni. + +Mr. STERN. Of the Secret Service here in Washington? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire between that time and the Friday +night showup? + +Mr. SORRELS. I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. +When I contacted Washington, I was informed that Inspector Kelley +was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that +evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come +there to help out. + +I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, +Brennan, that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him +to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that +would be fine. + +So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had +located Brennan--had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he +wasn't at home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help +me locate him, and she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she +could locate him by phone. I called her, I believe, the second time and +finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like +for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to +pick him up at the place there. And when they came down there with him, +I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, +Mr. Brennan. + +He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got +through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up." + +So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also +where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police +station, said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because +I have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he +said, "I just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" +because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his +shirt was open or something like that, and he said "The man I saw was +not in that condition." + +So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to +get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the +distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting +took place as he could. + +And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can +move up forward." + +They did bring Oswald in in a lineup. + +He looked very carefully, and then we moved him up closer and so forth, +and he said, "I cannot positively say." + +I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?" + +He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was Oswald--"he +looks like him." + +Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled. + +Now, mind you, Oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black +eye, a bruised eye. + +Mr. STERN. When you say "over here"---- + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, on the left side. He had a mark on his forehead, and +his left eye was a bit puffed. + +Mr. STERN. How many other people were in the lineup? + +Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told +there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five. + +Mr. STERN. Were the others reasonably similar to Oswald in height and +physical appearance, and color? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Dress? + +Mr. SORRELS. I noted that to me I thought it was a very fair lineup, +because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or +anyone a lot shorter. They didn't have any big fat ones or anything +like that. + +In other words, to me it was a good lineup. + +Mr. STERN. At that time, did Mr. Brennan say anything else to you that +you have not told us, or to anyone else? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. He says, "I am sorry, but I can't do +it. I was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. I just +can't be positive. I am sorry." + +Mr. STERN. As far as you know, had Mr. Brennan been interviewed by +anyone after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time +you had him brought to the police headquarters? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. STERN. Was he then interviewed by anyone? + +Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say. + +Mr. STERN. Did you arrange for him to return to his home? + +Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I did. I told him "they will take you back +to your home." + +Mr. STERN. Immediately after the lineup? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Brennan again after that day? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have. + +Mr. STERN. When was that? + +Mr. SORRELS. We were assisting the Commission in locating witnesses to +come to Washington, to the Commission, and I got in touch with him and +arranged for him to go and procured his ticket and delivered his ticket +to him. + +Mr. STERN. And when you talked to him then, did he say anything that +bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after +this interview with Oswald that you have told us about, do you recall +talking to any representative of the FBI? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Who was that? + +Mr. SORRELS. Now, let's get that question again, because I talked to +them several times down there. + +When was that you said? + +Mr. STERN. After you interviewed Oswald. + +Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes, yes. + +Mr. STERN. Do you know an FBI agent attached to the Dallas office named +James Hosty? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. STERN. Did you talk to Mr. Hosty that you recall? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall; no, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would +remember that? + +Mr. SORRELS. I think I would remember it. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall his being there? + +Mr. SORRELS. I think I saw him there. + +Now, whether it was on the 22d or not, but I think during along this +period, I saw him there one time. + +But I don't recall talking to Mr. Hosty at all down there. + +Mr. STERN. Did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that +they had talked to Hosty? Or that Hosty had told them anything? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I think Special Agent Patterson, I believe, said that +he had seen Hosty down there, and that Hosty, I believe, had said that +he had a file on Oswald. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall anything else that Agent Patterson told you +that Mr. Hosty had told him? + +Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot recall anything else. Because I had +information--had also gotten information from others. In other words, +there was general information around the Police Department there that +the FBI had a file on this individual. + +Mr. STERN. Any other of your agents tell you that Hosty had said +anything to them about Oswald that you can recall? + +Mr. SORRELS. You mean at that specific date, regarding that specific +date? + +Mr. STERN. Either on Friday or on Saturday. + +Mr. SORRELS. No. During the course of this thing, it was my +understanding that--I don't remember how the information came to +me--that Hosty had been checking on this Oswald, and that they had +information or knew that he was in this building. I cannot pinpoint it +any way specifically, because the information came several different +times to that effect. + +Mr. STERN. Now, you told us something of Oswald's physical appearance +when you saw him at the interview. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. And at the showup. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did his appearance change in the course of that time? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. + +Mr. STERN. Over that 3-day period, did you see any sign that force or +any other form of coercion was used on Oswald by anyone? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you observe or hear of any intimidation of Oswald or the +offer of any benefit to Oswald if he were to confess? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. + +Mr. STERN. Did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of +Oswald following your own brief interrogation? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. STERN. When was that? + +Mr. SORRELS. On the following day---- + +Mr. STERN. That is Saturday, the 23d? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with +Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was +shot. + +Mr. STERN. Did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer +for Oswald? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was +in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the +name of Abt, or some similar name like that. I never had heard of him +before. Apt, or some similar name. + +And Captain Fritz said, "Well, you can use the phone and you can call +him." + +Mr. STERN. When was this? + +Mr. SORRELS. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that +Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone. + +Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe it? + +Mr. SORRELS. I did not observe that; no. + +Mr. STERN. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the +American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. He said if he could not get this man--I wish I could +remember his name--a very short name, Apt or something like that. + +Mr. STERN. A-b-t? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, A-b-t. Yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a +lawyer supplied by the Civil Liberties Union. + +Mr. STERN. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can +remember? + +Mr. SORRELS. He was questioned about the rifle, because, at that +time, as I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been +purchased from Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the +name of A. Hidell. And he was questioned by Captain Fritz along those +lines. And he denied that the rifle was his. He denied knowing or using +the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell. + +He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time +still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were, +of course, directed towards getting information. A lot of them he +would not answer. And a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent +falsehoods. + +And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and +deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to +become angered, because he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner +from time to time. + +Mr. STERN. But you think that was acting--not genuine? + +Mr. SORRELS. That is the impression I got, that he was just +deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe +get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he +shouldn't do. + +That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason--I guess +one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview, +on Sunday morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different +attitude. In other words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't +giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't +flaring up like he did before. + +Mr. STERN. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you +know of that it was scheduled to end? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the +impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the +morning, and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in +the morning--we were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came +around and asked Captain Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was +holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and +get him moved as quick as they could. + +Mr. STERN. Did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to +move him at 10 o'clock? + +Mr. SORRELS. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter +of fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me +afterwards, he said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk, +I hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told Chief +Curry, "We will be through in a few minutes." + +And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him +any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained +a change of address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in +which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was +to receive mail at that particular address in New Orleans was named A. +Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald about that thing, because he +had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of A. Hidell, and he +denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell. + +So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him, "Now, +here is a change of address card that you filed in New Orleans," and he +looked at it. + +He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently +in his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that +you have not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card +here as the name of A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this +address. If you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have +that name on that card?" + +He said, "I never used the name of Hidell." + +Mr. STERN. That was the last question he was asked? + +Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know. + +Mr. STERN. And then what happened? + +Mr. SORRELS. He was told that they were going to move him to the +county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out +of his--the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, +because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended +was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz +sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark +colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was +taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I +left and went up to--I say up--down the hall to the executive office +area of the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief +Batchelor. + +And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw +the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting +there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby +Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and +pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He +was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there +at the police station. And we were just waiting around there. + +And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that +was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking +about open windows, I see one open across the street over there" at a +building across the street. + +I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we +had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the +Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just +heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack +Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run +a night club. + +Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the +basement. + +Mr. STERN. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the +relevant information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert +yesterday. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. And actually back just a little bit. + +Mr. STERN. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your +interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify +anything you said yesterday to him? + +Mr. SORRELS. We were trying to establish something about the time +yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not +fix any exact time. + +But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been +shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into +the basement of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still +on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as I +said yesterday, and I immediately called my headquarters office in +Washington and told them about Oswald being shot by Jack Rubin, a +night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get additional +information and call them back. + +And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went +back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there +when I left and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my +thought was to talk to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could. + +Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I +asked where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I +would like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail +elevator, went right on up there. So---- + +Mr. STERN. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call +to Deputy Chief---- + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after +thinking the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at +the time this call was made, I would say that that phone call was +probably made between 11:25 and 11:30, I would say. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. + +Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police +the plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the +move was made? + +Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10 +o'clock in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz--and as I recall this +conversation--I said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an +announced time. I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, +when there is nobody around." + +And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these +people," talking about the press and television people, and said that +he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them +all he can. And that was all that was said about that. + +I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with +Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was +trying to tell them how to run their business. + +Mr. STERN. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of +police headquarters from Friday through Sunday? + +Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to +actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people +just, as the expression goes, took over. I would almost every time +I went up there, definitely after the 22d, I would have to identify +myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor, +if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office +or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through, +and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost +that I would come out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door +opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and I got where I +just shadowed my eyes when I walked down there to keep the light from +shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one of the deputy +chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side +of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could +get power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down +to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And +it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost +indescribable. + +I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas +Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office +with Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange +for her to get up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was +stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time +keeping them--I thought they were going to barge on in there. They were +yelling like mad--because Mr. Underwood was in there, and one of them +was there yelling--"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a +right to be in there." + +Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz' +office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying +to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--I am not going +upstairs." + +That was just the situation you were booked up against there. + +And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me +something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to +make." + +And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement +made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr. +Kelley, the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will +have to come from Inspector Peterson in Washington." + +Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't +bother me any more. + +Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they +would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would +say, "That is Sorrels of the Secret Service." + +That happened more than once. + +And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The +officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me +and pass me through. + +Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were +in that corridor? + +Mr. SORRELS. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but +there were dozens of them. + +Mr. STERN. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the +corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of? + +Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of. + +Mr. STERN. Did you ever learn why this was not done--did you ever ask? + +Mr. SORRELS. No, I did not. I just thought to myself--well, if this was +being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist. +That is what I thought. + +But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself--well, +they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting +them out. That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do +know that the Dallas Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office, +they do try to go along with the press and everything like that. + +After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before, +who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times +Herald, he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of +there, and that includes us." + +Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief +Curry or anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of +there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have +really blasted them in the press. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, that covers the ground that I wanted to ask you +about. + +Is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this +morning with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in +front of the Book Depository, your return there, anything that elapsed +while you were at the police headquarters from Friday afternoon through +Sunday morning--or with respect to anything you told Mr. Hubert about +yesterday? + +Just take a moment and think about it. + +And if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you +have said that you think the Commission should know, please tell me. + +Mr. SORRELS. I cannot recall anything right now, Mr. Stern. + +Mr. STERN. I would like you to identify this one page memorandum +entitled "Statement of Forrest V. Sorrels, Special Agent in Charge, +U.S. Secret Service, Dallas, Tex., November 28, 1963." + +I have marked this "Exhibit 5," deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, +1964. + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that I wrote up. + +Mr. STERN. Would you initial that for me, please? + +Mr. SORRELS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Would you review the statement and see if there is anything +you would like to add to it? + +I think you might just tell us what it covers. + +Mr. SORRELS. This is a statement which was written up by me on November +28, 1963, relating the fact that the presidential motorcade---- + +Mr. STERN. The statement will be in the record, Mr. Sorrels. I meant +just tell us the subject matter of it. + +Mr. SORRELS. Relating to the events that I observed when the +presidential motorcade went from Love Field until the time that I left +the Parkland Hospital to go to the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to add to that statement that +you have not already told us--because we have gone into this in much +greater detail now. + +Mr. SORRELS. No, not that I can recall, because as you say we went into +it in more detail. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Sorrels. We appreciate very much +your coming to Washington to help us. + +Mr. SORRELS. I want to express my appreciation to you and to the +Commission for permitting me to not come on the week of the 19th, +due to the fact that my little daughter had to go to the hospital. I +certainly appreciate your consideration in letting me come at a later +date. + +Mr. STERN. We were very happy we could arrange that, and we are glad to +know she is well. + +Mr. SORRELS. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN + +The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 +West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly +sworn, was examined and testified as follows: + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name? + +Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman. + +Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman? + +Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago. + +Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years. + +Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your +general areas of work? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, +participating in the merchandising and advertising. + +Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty +items which appeal to the male consumer. + +Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting +items? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the +products handled by Klein's are rifles? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question? + +Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their +line of sporting goods? + +Mr. WALDMAN. They do. + +Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of +your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago? + +Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. +Education: I don't know just what you're after. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school? + +Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of +Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you +want this developed. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do? + +Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and +Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the +U.S. Army, Air Corps branch. + +Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II? + +Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a +brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting +Goods. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes? + +Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to +Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, +19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling +for 200 units at a cost of $8.50. + +Mr. BELIN. Now---- + +Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a +photostatic copy of a document, is it not? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It is. + +Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared +by someone under your direction or supervision? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I +originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. +It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time +in which it was needed, and---- + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M. W." + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower left-hand corner of +Exhibit 1? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It is. + +Mr. BELIN. And that is who? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. He was. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? + +Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under +the direct supervision of Sam Kasper. + +Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now? + +Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here. + +Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company. + +Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what +Deposition Exhibit 1 constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up +where you left off here. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of +the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column +which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made +to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the +two dates here. + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. + +Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise +came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in +which they were officially received by our receiving department. + +Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the +physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that +correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they +frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was +received by us. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1 a +date--well, I might read everything under the column of description; it +says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; +and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 +mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, +then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that +date and that description. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of +different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor +modifications made by--developed by each of the manufacturers. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making +the Springfield rifle in this country? + +Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the +Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general +design, but as I say, there were details that were different. + +We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was +known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model +known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under +the item number--some letters here or numbers---- + +Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749. + +Mr. BELIN. What does that signify? + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for +internal operating purposes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Off the record now. Can I speak without being---- + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. On the record. + +Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me +that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only +number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have +any other numbers assigned to them? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number? + +Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope +and mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the +rifle, the scope and the mount. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes +and mounts? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source +as the rifle itself? + +Mr. WALDMAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the +date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you +received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers +as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed +from one model to another, both models being very similar. + +Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. What is it? + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast +Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, +1963, from Crescent Firearms. + +Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 2 that says. "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, +2-21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time? + +Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving +department at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been +packed in each carton or case? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of +which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; +these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated +there were 10 rifles in each case. + +Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing +serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these +represents those rifles that were contained in a case. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the +case. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular +company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos +separately with their invoice. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a +photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in +front of you at this time? + +Mr. WALDMAN. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate +photostat of these other copies? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It is. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers +with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first +photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that? + +Mr. WALDMAN. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats +and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, +C-2766. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton +or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it? + +Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766. + +Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in +your possession which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat +of; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your +procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the +rifles? + +Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a +number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our +possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with +both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which +is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give +different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each +gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique +identification for each gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control +number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that +is imprinted in the frame of the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in +front of you on your desk right now? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the +serial number C-2766? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on +their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles +were shipped to you? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn +Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons. + +Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement +agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had +the serial number C-2766 on it? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted +our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our +possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your +company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this +serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this +information? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it +for a fact. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were +contacted by the FBI? + +Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22? + +Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they +felt you might have received this rifle originally? + +Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records +the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a +record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date +of receipt by us, and from that we made--let's see, we examined our +microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and +related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been +shipped by us. + +Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording +of transactions of your company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are. + +Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 +and ask you if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that--of mail order +transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to +the FBI. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that +microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on +the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the +investigation. + +Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the +microfilm prints? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to +take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the +appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm +machine.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call +D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and +you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is +this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification +purposes. + +Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it +shows this particular rifle was shipped to? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name--H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office +Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. And does it show any serial number or control number? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number +VC-836 and serial number C-2766. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a +total of $21.45. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this +number? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog +number. + +Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification +or description. Can you state what that is? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an +Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm +record? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle +around the letters "PP." + +Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order +itself? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was +$21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here. + +Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received +the money? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" +designating money order. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, +March 13, 1963; to what does that refer? + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating +that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our +register on that date. + +Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with +the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative +frame that we are looking at right now? + +Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from +a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of +the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; +and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name +A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was +mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner the return address +of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex. + +There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, +indicating that the order was mailed by airmail. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper +right-hand corner? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that +correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's true. + +Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these +negatives? + +(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.) + +Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony +has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the +actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking +of this testimony, please. + +(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the +deposition originally commenced.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 +on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with +your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the +microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs. + +Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer +of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office +Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the +order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us +internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon +taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine. + +Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the +microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from +the microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and +the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you +advertise in gun magazines? + +Mr. WALDMAN. We do. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which +this coupon might have been taken? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American +Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the +department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as +Department 358 on the coupon. + +Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope +to you, is that correct, or to your company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, +plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. +788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order +of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named +A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box +No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and +underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the +reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank. + +I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine +it, please. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order +of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 +space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, +Inc." + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's +endorsement on that money order? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement. + +Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is. + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that +shown on the money order in question. + +Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 +with your endorsement stamp? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order +was deposited by your company? + +Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was +deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order +for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---- + +Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from +Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. +7? + +Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we +cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our +deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on +the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit No. 10. + +Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading +from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of +Chicago by your company; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a +total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, you +had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when +you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four +numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you +tell us what accounts for the difference? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control +numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. +The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. +C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, +which is sold as a package unit. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the +scope? + +Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95. + +Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of +February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or +without the scope, if you remember? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it +did. Most usually we did. + +Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what +manner? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or +whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog +numbers. + +Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already +mounted on it when you got it from Crescent? + +Mr. WALDMAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun shop, most +probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp. + +Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the +mounting and do the actual mounting then himself? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way +sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing +with the sight? + +Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rife of this sort +that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the +rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the +scope? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from +Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard. Culver City, Calif. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you +know? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics." + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the +microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as +Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on +this at all which indicate which microfilm this is? + +Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions +Nos. 269688 through 270596. + +Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control +number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit +No. 7 as being number what? + +Mr. WALDMAN. 270502. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, +which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this +shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit +No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped +on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to +verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman +Deposition Exhibit No. 3? + +Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial +numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. +3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in +that shipment. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms---- + +Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition +Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, +which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower +portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in +with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was +written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and +attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle +was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you +know whether or not it was? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated +on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope +attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer +specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There +is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made +by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe +that it was shipped as a rifle with scope mounted. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken +down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully +assembled? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and +scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this +particular one would have been shipped otherwise. + +Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have +been shipped? + +Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes +attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd +Container Corporation of Chicago. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any +wrapping paper or tape to the FBI? + +Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with +the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper +that may have been used for inner cushioning packing. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the +microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear +than the photostats or prints that have been made from it? + +Mr. WALDMAN. More clear. + +Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm +itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies? + +Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your +company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we +know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could +have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was +purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for +your cooperation. + +Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. +Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before +anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, +whatever you like. + +Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the +possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the +recording. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original +copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other +copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever +corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and +I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR + +The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 +West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly +sworn, was examined and testified as follows: + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor. + +Mr. BELIN. And where do you live? + +Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods. + +Mr. BELIN. In what capacity? + +Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law +enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this? + +Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it +would be possible to get at the records--at our records to see if that +gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one +of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came +down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here? + +Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went +in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as +getting--trying to find the information that we needed. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information? + +Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise +for that particular gun. + +The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the +gun from Crescent Firearms. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or +your sales or what? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of +our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number. + +Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the +microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; +is that correct? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial +No. C-2766? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 +the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe +that you had shipped this particular rifle? + +Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you +know--strike the question. + +I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which +Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print? + +Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the morning, as far as I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman +Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to +identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking +number or control number along with the serial number so at a future +date we can identify that particular gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper left-hand +corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what +that has reference to? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and +that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving +department on 2-22-63. + +Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms. + +Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38. 6.5 Italian caliber rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper right-hand +corner, what does that have reference to? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. +I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always +fill--in the same rotation as they come out of. + +Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all? + +Mr. SCIBOR. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers +are assigned by people under your supervision? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people +making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general +background. You might state where you were born and what educational +background you have, for the record. + +Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 +years of high school, 6-1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's +Sporting Goods. + +Mr. BELIN. You're married? + +Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18---- + +Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years. + +Mr. BELIN. And you're married? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily? + +Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a desk drawer back in the receiving +department, which I designated that those should be filed. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind +that has these control numbers on them? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking +department, and those are put into a master book, control book. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of +guns? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your +control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your control number? + +Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836. + +Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on +Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns. + +Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun? + +Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns. + +Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in +helping obtaining this information. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS + +The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, +1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles. Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. +Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. +Rose, president of George Rose & Co., was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz W. Michaelis, M-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s. + +Mr. BALL. What is your first name? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz, H-e-i-n-z. + +Mr. BALL. Heinz Michaelis. + +Mr. Michaelis, you received a letter last week from Mr. Rankin, counsel +for the Commission, did you not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was what date that you received it? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I received it on Thursday. + +Mr. BALL. That would be---- + +Mr. MICHAELIS. 11--the 7th. + +Mr. BALL. The 7th of May. And you were invited to give your testimony +today by way of this deposition, weren't you? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You are willing to do so, are you not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to +inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of President +Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. 5227 West Olympic Boulevard. + +Mr. BALL. In Los Angeles? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Los Angeles. + +Mr. BALL. And your business address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Pardon me. Correction. 5755. I am sorry. + +Mr. BALL. And your business address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. 1200 North Soto, Los Angeles. + +Mr. BALL. Have you recently changed your business address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. From what address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. From 1225 South Grand Avenue. + +Mr. BALL. Are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some +company? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I work for the George Rose & Co. + +Mr. BALL. What business is the George Rose & Co. engaged in? + +Mr. ROSE. You work for Merchanteers. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Oh, pardon me; Merchanteers, Inc. + +Mr. BALL. Your immediate employer is Merchanteers, Inc.? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. + +Mr. BALL. Is that associated with the George Rose & Co.? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. In what business is Merchanteers, Inc., engaged? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. has mail order---- + +Mr. ROSE. Mail order and management. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. And management. + +Mr. BALL. And does it do work for George Rose & Co.? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Do I work for George Rose & Co.? + +Mr. ROSE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Well, Merchanteers, Inc.--it is the mail order agency for +George Rose & Co., is it? + +Mr. ROSE. No; may I clarify it? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; well, I better have him, and then I may ask you to +clarify it. + +Mr. ROSE. Yes; all right. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what you know of the relationship between George Rose +& Co. and Merchanteers? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, Merchanteers. Inc. is a mail-order business. +But, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for +employees from the George Rose & Co. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what business is George Rose & Co. engaged in? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. George Rose & Co. are wholesalers and sell to retail +stores. + +Mr. BALL. What do they sell? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, +and various others. + +Mr. BALL. Does George Rose & Co. engage in any mail-order business? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yeah; we get mail orders, too. + +Mr. BALL. You take mail orders as George Rose & Co.? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. ROSE. Wholesale. + +Mr. BALL. At wholesale? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Wholesale, yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there is also a company called Seaport Traders, isn't +there? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders is another mail-order business. + +Mr. BALL. It is another mail-order business? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Do you work for them? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in a supervisory position. + +Mr. BALL. That is the company that you work for. Merchanteers, you say? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers; yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is it Merchanteers, Inc.? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.; yes. + +Mr. BALL. They manage the business of Seaport Traders? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Now, last fall did the Federal Bureau of Investigation visit +your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain Smith & +Wesson revolver? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. About what date? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I believe it was November the 30th, a Saturday. + +Mr. BALL. And in searching your records for any such sale, to what +particular record did you first look? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. We started first, after having received the serial +number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248. + +Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the +butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as +the crane number. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of +the gun. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel. + +Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the +gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on +the gun. + +Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is +that right? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are--it is required that since Smith & +Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the +so-called crane number. + +Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it +might be possible. + +Mr. BALL. What is the meaning of the word crane? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a +crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number. + +Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here. + +Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with +a black cover. Is that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting. + +Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten. + +Mr. BALL. When the agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation +called on you on Saturday, November 30, 1963, you looked to your book +that carries a record in handwriting of your sales? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you find this record of this particular gun? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I hand you here a document which is identified as FBI +Laboratory No. D-191, being a photostat. Do you recognize this? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Will you compare that with the page in your notebook? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the same. + +Mr. BALL. And that is identified in your notebook as Case No. 3? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Case No. 3. + +Mr. BALL. What is the significance of the words "Case No. 3"? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It is a listing of a case which we received. + +Mr. BALL. Of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. It also has a 99 enclosed in a circle. What is the +significance of that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I presume that is the contents, the piece contents of +the case. + +Mr. BALL. You found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that +would indicate what? That you had sold the gun at some time? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I would like to offer and have marked this photostat of +a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as Case No. 3, as +Exhibit No. 1 to this deposition of Mr. Michaelis. + +(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the +Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 1 for identification by +the notary public.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine +from what source you bought the gun? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And from whom? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Excuse me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you have before you now a file? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And does it refer to this particular purchase of 99 guns? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns. + +Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now +showing? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of +this gun; where you bought it and from whom. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., +360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec. + +Mr. BALL. And what date did you buy it? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Invoice No. 1181 dated October 13, 1962. + +Mr. BALL. And it was shipped to you by the Empire Wholesale Sporting +Goods, Ltd., on what date? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It went--it was on 10/19/62, in St. Albans, Vt., and +from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at +that time 1225 South Grand Avenue. However, the merchandise in question +did not arrive before January 3, 1963. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the date it did arrive? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. It was received January 3, 1963. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion held off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of +its barrel? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Five inches. + +Mr. BALL. And was it changed? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It was changed. + +Mr. BALL. To what? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. To a 2-1/4-inch barrel. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, we gave the guns out to Mr. L. M. Johnson and +instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are +concerned to our specifications. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you shorten them from 5 to 2-1/4 inches? Explain to +me for the record. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Because we have quite frequently calls for the Smith & +Wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as 2-1/4 inch or 4 inch. + +Mr. BALL. Did you shorten all of the consignment that you received? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Just a certain number? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from 5 to 2-1/4? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Johnson's number--and is that M. L. Johnson? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; just a minute. Or L. M. It is M. L. + +Mr. BALL. And what is his address? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. At that time, 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, Calif. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; mail order. + +Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission +Exhibit No. 135. Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you +ever saw that before? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th. + +Mr. BALL. The first time? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on +November 30? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, +the red copy. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do +with filling that order? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No. + +Mr. BALL. What is your position here? Do you have charge of the office? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I am manager. + +Mr. BALL. You are manager of the office? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And all of these records are under your control, are they? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, not particularly at that time because my actual +supervision of the Seaport Traders, Inc., activities started later +during the year. I mean in September and October, when the girl in +charge left. + +Mr. BALL. At least in November you were in charge and in possession of +all of the records of the Seaport Traders? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. You have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by +which the gun was shipped and sold? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Not prior to the first investigation. + +Mr. BALL. But you are providing me with records which were under your +control as of November 1963? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; correct. + +Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me who would have actually received the +mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and +shipped it? Do you know what person would have done this? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. There are various operations. The order was received +by---- + +Mr. ROSE. I probably would have opened it. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the +mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at +that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n. + +Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice +No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and +packer. + +Mr. BALL. What is the name? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. This is a title, order filler and packer. She is one +person. + +Mr. BALL. What is that last word? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Packer. + +Mr. BALL. Packer. I see. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. And the order was shipped on March the 20th, 1963. + +Mr. BALL. You have been testifying from a record which you have before +you? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And that is a paper which has been marked for identification +by the Federal Bureau of Investigation DL-28, Seaport Traders, Inc., +No. A-5371. + +Is that correct? You have been testifying from information contained on +that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. That was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its +significance in your business? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. This particular document is, after the order is +processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective +customer. + +Mr. BALL. You mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail +order coupon, 135, has been packed and shipped, this invoice A-5371, is +filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct; filed under the name of the respective customer. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.0. Box 2915, +Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. +What is the meaning of that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description +which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a +higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify +between the two types, we have this type described as Commando. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question. + +Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is +the significance of that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 +in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped +with a c.o.d. for the balance of $19.95. + +Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What was that? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20. + +Mr. BALL. 1963? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963. + +Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. +A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis. + +(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the +Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by +the notary public.) + +Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 +which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that +document is? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 +which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the +numerical order. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of +1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and +copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in +quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the +office and is filed on a numerical order. + +The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the +invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part +used as a packing slip. + +The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the +respective customer after the order has been shipped. + +The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on +the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective +customer. + +Mr. BALL. What statement? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said +that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and +that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, +territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me---- + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this +statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular +case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we +have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular +mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the +witness. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is +Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together +with the witness? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l. + +Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the +purchaser? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have +identified? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3. + +(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the +Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by +the notary public.) + +Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow. + +Mr. BALL. Yellow. That is the packing slip copy? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that +correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that +correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original +records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the +request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is +that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of +red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore +identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute. I have to get the original. Now, this +exhibit number---- + +Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from +the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton +with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. +It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect +a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the +original receipt, which is 70638. + +Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt. + +Mr. BALL. Is this it here? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Except by name, is that right? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name. + +Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol. + +Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked +as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt. + +(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the +Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by +the notary public.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of +Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway +Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name +of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, +in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit +the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the +c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the +consignee. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5. + +(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the +Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by +the notary public.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency +receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief +of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were +in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of +this pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway +Express did remit to you the $19.95? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green +one? + +Mr. BALL. Five. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice. + +Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being---- + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit +number---- + +Mr. BALL. Two. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal +Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes. + +Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original +documents, are they not? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf +notebook? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have +any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this +particular parcel. + +Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of +here in a year? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. In 1 year? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate. + +Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders? + +Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's. + +Mr. BALL. Well, about how many? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough +guess, Mr. Ball. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have +sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year. + +Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order---- + +Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from +Seaport Traders. + +Mr. BALL. 120 or 125? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, of this particular type of gun. + +Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular +transaction that you would like to tell me? + +Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this +transaction. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF J. C. CASON + +The following affidavit was executed by J. C. Cason on May 22, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer, of the Texas School Book +Depository declare the following statements: + +The Texas School Book Depository was organized in 1908 as a sole +proprietorship and continued in this manner until 1927 when it was +incorporated under the laws of the State of Texas. + +The Corporation's offices are located at Elm and Houston Streets, +Dallas, Texas, and its warehouse and storage plant are located at 1917 +North Houston Street, Dallas, Texas. It neither owns nor operated any +other buildings in Dallas or in any other city. + +The present officers are: J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer; and +O. V. Campbell, Vice President and Secretary. The Directors are: J. +C. Cason, O. V. Campbell and R. S. Truly. The Shareholders of all +outstanding Capital Stock are J. C. Cason and O. V. Campbell. + +The Corporation acts as an independent agency for a group of +thirty-three publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to the +various schools in the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, +and New Mexico. It has no other business activity other than that afore +mentioned. It is not connected in any way with any state or municipal +government and operates solely as a private Corporation with a Charter +from the State of Texas. + +Signed the 22d day of May 1964. + + (S) J. C. Cason, + J. C. CASON. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF C. N. DHORITY + +The following affidavit was executed by C. N. Dhority on May 12, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss:_ + +Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State +of Texas, on this day personally appeared Detective C. N. Dhority, +Dallas Police Department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath +deposes and says: + +The night of November 22, 1963 Captain J. W. Fritz gave me three 6.5 +rifle hulls and told me to give them to Lt. J. C. Day in the Crime Lab. +Captain J. W. Fritz told me to have Lt. Day to dust them for prints +and return one of the 6.5 hulls to him. I took these three 6.5 rifle +hulls to Lt. Day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been +previously marked by Det. R. M. Sims. Lt. Day dusted the shells for +prints and gave me one back. I returned this 6.5 shell back to Captain +J. W. Fritz. + +Signed this 12th day of May 1964. + + (S) C. N. Dhority, + C. N. DHORITY. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROY S. TRULY + +The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. +I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don't know that it +is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a +continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn't I? + +Mr. TRULY. Oh, no; I gave a statement that was under oath. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, no; this is a deposition. You appeared before the +Commission--that's right. + +Mr. TRULY. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before +I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a +recorded deposition. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn't +record that. You weren't under oath then. Will you stand up and be +sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give +before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. TRULY. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Now, will you state your name, please? + +Mr. TRULY. Roy S. Truly. + +Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. TRULY. That's correct. + +Mr. BALL. Is that your title? + +Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. + +Mr. BALL. You have been employed by the Depository for a number of +years? + +Mr. TRULY. Since 1934; since 1934. + +Mr. BALL. You testified before the Commission in Washington, you say, +on the 24th of March 1964; did you not? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the +Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the +attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire +about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will +be in addition to the testimony you have already given. + +Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20. + +Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they? + +Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster. + +Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two +guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask +you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that +time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TRULY. Never before. + +Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20, +and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School +Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination. + +Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers? + +Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers. + +Mr. BALL. Carried by police officers? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; and I saw a rifle being carried from the building. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You saw that in place on the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. TRULY. I only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door. + +Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion +besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TRULY. Never. + +Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren +Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under +which you saw these guns? + +Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the +lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the +first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just +purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two +and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that +it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time +Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go +deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to +buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for +his boy. + +Mr. BALL. Did you handle the .22 rifle? + +Mr. TRULY. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. You did see it, though? + +Mr. TRULY. I did see it. + +Mr. BALL. Was it out of the carton? + +Mr. TRULY. The carton was open, I believe, and I saw it. I don't recall +picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but I could see it lying +in the bottom part of the carton. + +Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out? + +Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of +sighting it, but not cocking it--just looking at it. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. +Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. TRULY. He is manager of the miscellaneous department. + +Mr. BALL. Was this in the open warehouse? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; right at the front. Mr. Caster had placed the cartons +on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were +when I saw them, and I picked one up out of the cartons. + +Mr. BALL. And were they employees of the Texas School Book Depository +company on the first floor at that time? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; they were--as I recall the time--that the boys had +probably gone back to work and could have been walking around before +they went in the shipping department. + +Mr. BALL. That would have been about what time of the day? + +Mr. TRULY. I'd say around 1 o'clock--very close to it. It could have +been a little after or a little before. The boys go back to lunch at +12:45, so there I'm not too clear. + +Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster +got during the noon hour? + +Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried +them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them again? + +Mr. TRULY. Never--never. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see from that day until Friday, November 22, did +you ever see those guns in the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission +you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain +Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after +the rifle had been found on the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the time +the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, +but when I told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief +Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he +went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding +him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz." + +Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from +the roof of the building? + +Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin +that, "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean +anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other +warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could +get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so +I could be more accurate than I would be. + +Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing? + +Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was +one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in +front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun. + +Mr. BALL. But walking which way? + +Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston +Street, east on Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards? + +Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the +employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with +them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short +time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"? + +Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom? + +Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom. + +Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he +said No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I +didn't know where Captain Fritz was. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or +after you called to the warehouse and got the name? + +Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the +warehouse and got the address? + +Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in +your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or +something so I would remember it. + +Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form +for employment? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address? + +Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all. + +Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? + +Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the +rifle. + +Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? + +Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. + +Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the +building? + +Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. + +Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was +found? + +Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the +sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your +talk with Fritz? + +Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on +the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth +floor, didn't you? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? + +Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that +this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving +address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had +been found? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- + +Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. + +Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned +the rifle was found, but I did not see it. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz +the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle +was found? + +Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. + +Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz--after what, +you tell me? + +Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth +floor, Captain Fritz was standing in the area where I later learned +they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that +Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, +so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other +men--officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I +repeated the words to Captain Fritz. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing--I told him what his +name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. +Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left +the sixth floor shortly. + +While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked +over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where +did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to +Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and +sometime--someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know +who it was. + +Mr. BALL. About that time? + +Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and +I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the +sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I +don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else +on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no +occasion to go back up there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best +estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his +address? + +Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 +minutes. + +Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? + +Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? + +Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you +exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not +found until after 1 o'clock. + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found +the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some +other place. + +Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the +gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is +that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz +was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found +it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after 1 o'clock, when was it that +you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? + +Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the +assassination, but it could have been longer. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 +minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? + +Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. + +Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? + +Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came +down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my +memory. + +Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed +he wasn't there? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't think so--I don't feel like at was. It could have +possibly been so. + +Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't +found before that, can you give me any estimate? + +Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee +Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until +Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time +you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the +name and address? + +Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. + +Mr. BALL. Immediately? + +Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his +name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told +Captain Fritz at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. + +Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three +officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few +things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Not over that? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All +right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this." + +Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it +might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald +wasn't there? + +Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been. + +Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was +not there? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it +was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after +retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have +to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it +could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of +the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in +and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that +this boy wasn't among the other workers. + +Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you? + +Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain +Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had +been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in +the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that +there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that +time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a +newspaper reporter told me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there +afterwards? + +Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I +had seen him walk across the street--up the street. + +Mr. BALL. Toward what? + +Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Toward Main--down toward Main? + +Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing +Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that +time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, +that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman--there were two or +three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they +started across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to +the right across Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front +of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you? + +Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before +the shooting--I believe they were the three. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm? + +Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them. + +Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into the +building? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there--I +noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but +whether they completed it--I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens? + +Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of +the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction? + +Mr. TRULY. Walking east. + +Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm? + +Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the +street--Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later? + +Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did. + +Mr. BALL. When--how much later? + +Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose--I don't know his actions during that +day. + +Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building? + +Mr. TRULY. No. + +Mr. BALL. After the shooting? + +Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the +building--I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I +know he was at the police station later on. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now. + +(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301 +Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the +deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm +Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:) + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker +you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators? + +Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor. + +Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You are sure of that? + +Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level. + +Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any +of the floors? + +Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, +but west one was not. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was? + +Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't +upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere. + +Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator? + +Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor. + +Mr. BALL. That's all. + +Mr. TRULY. Fine. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WARREN CASTER + +The testimony of Warren Caster was taken at 2 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in +the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Caster, would you please stand up and take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CASTER. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name, please? + +Mr. CASTER. Warren Caster. + +Mr. BALL. And where do you live? + +Mr. CASTER. 3338 Merrell. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. CASTER. Textbook publishing. + +Mr. BALL. Are you with some company? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. +with offices at 411 Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. CASTER. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with +the Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and where you were raised and educated? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, +received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las +Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started +to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of +about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy. + +Mr. BALL. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School +Book Depository Building? + +Mr. CASTER. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository +Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied +three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co. + +Mr. BALL. Your office is on which floor? + +Mr. CASTER. Second floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon +hour. + +Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they? + +Mr. CASTER. They were my guns. + +Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they? + +Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the +other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser. + +Mr. BALL. Who owned them? + +Mr. CASTER. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day. + +Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about it--what were the circumstances of the +purchase? + +Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had +lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris +sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday--I +beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while +I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the +same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years +been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one +that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there. + +Mr. BALL. And did they box them up? + +Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they +were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School +Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped +by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles +that I had purchased. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly? + +Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were +there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there--and Mr. Roy Truly. The only +people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers +there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even +tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository +workers there in the shipping department. + +Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there? + +Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just +there over the counter. + +Mr. BALL. In the warehouse? + +Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the +counter in front of the warehouse; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton. + +Mr. BALL. Did you handle them? + +Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns? + +Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley +had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive. + +Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, +just estimate it. + +Mr. CASTER. Well, it couldn't have been more than 10 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that? + +Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my +office. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that? + +Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock +and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my +car and carried them home. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book +Depository Building thereafter? + +Mr. CASTER. They have never been back to the Texas School Book +Depository Building since then. + +Mr. BALL. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. CASTER. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be written up and you will be +asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you +can correct it if you wish. + +Mr. CASTER. That's all right. + +Mr. BALL. Any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and +initial it and sign it. I want to thank you very much for giving this +testimony. + +Mr. CASTER. I thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER + +The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 4 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at +the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph +A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. You understand since this is a continuation of your +deposition you are under oath still? + +Mr. PIPER. Thank you; I appreciate it. + +Mr. BALL. Your deposition has been taken? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. I'm going to just ask you a few questions. + +Mr. PIPER. Sure, that's all right. + +Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the +floor? + +Mr. PIPER. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the +shooting was who? + +Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow--I really don't know who it was; +like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly. + +Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed? + +Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Was he an officer? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer. + +Mr. BALL. A police officer? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on? + +Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I +was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running +into the building. + +Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just +hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," +and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up--on up +the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was +standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different +ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out. + +Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps? + +Mr. PIPER. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down--I really don't know +who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the +steps. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it +was after I got over here and walked over to the back door. + +Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up +the steps? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald--did +you notice he wasn't around? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I +just figured all the people was there. + +Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us about that. + +Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup? + +Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our +name and address and just to go home. + +Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean? + +Mr. PIPER. The detective--whoever it was. + +Mr. BALL. The police? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to +locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then +go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement +and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes +and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name +and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I +guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out +the front door. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say something to anybody about not seeing Oswald +there? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't say it, but I just saw he wasn't in the +lineup--I didn't tell anyone because I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. Just tell us what did you notice? + +Mr. PIPER. I noticed he was not in the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. You noticed that he was not in the lineup? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't mention it to anybody? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't mention it but I knows he wasn't in the +lineup, and Charles--I don't know whether he was, but he went out for +lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Was Charles Givens there? + +Mr. PIPER. I couldn't remember seeing him. He went out for lunch and +I don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not +because I was getting dressed to get out of there myself. + +Mr. BALL. That's all. + +Mr. PIPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY + +The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a +continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you +understand that? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School +Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter. + +Mr. BALL. And how did they get there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them +in and stopped by to see us. + +Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22. + +Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too--there was, wasn't +there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been +converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06 + +Mr. BALL. Did you handle that? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No. + +Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he +puts them back in the box and goes out of the door. + +Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date +and the time the President was shot? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is +the last time you saw Oswald? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? + +Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at anytime after 12? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in +the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald +to go home? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the +shooting, do you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where +there was a window open? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Not all the way; they had it blocked off. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at a later time go over there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for several days afterwards. + +Mr. BALL. Did you several days afterward go over there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. +We kept out for several days. + +Mr. BALL. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on +top of a larger box? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. +The boxes--the Rolling Readers were there. + +Mr. BALL. They were? + +Mr. SHELLEY. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were +gone--they had been carried up to the police station. + +Mr. BALL. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on +the top? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I +believe you testified, haven't you, before? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, +but it was at least three aisles. + +Mr. BALL. Away from the southeast corner? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from +this corner. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers +over there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out +of the stack and over there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from +everything else. + +Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor. + +Mr. BALL. They were? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty +good sized. + +Mr. BALL. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast +corner were out of place, were they? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They sure were. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them out of place before? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor. + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. SHELLEY. You mean the one under the Rolling Readers? + +Mr. BALL. The one under the Rolling Readers. + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level. + +Mr. BALL. "Think and Do" books? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of the first-grade level? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't +they? + +Mr. SHELLEY. About four time as large. + +Mr. BALL. Can you describe their size in inches? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, +approximately. + +Mr. BALL. What would you say is the size--was the size of the Rolling +Reader? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It's about 12 inches long--6 by 6. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was there a place where things and those books were +usually stacked on the sixth floor? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Along the west wall all the way across. + +Mr. BALL. You had been doing work up there that day, had you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry. + +Mr. BALL. Had they ever been in the west wall? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the +west wall. + +Mr. BALL. On the west wall? + +Mr. SHELLEY. On the west wall; I mean the east wall. + +Mr. BALL. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And piled how many cartons high? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high. + +Mr. BALL. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on +the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was +stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for +it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying +the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that +particular type. + +Mr. BALL. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these +"Think and Do" book cartons? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They are on the south side--along the south side of the +building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing +that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and +then the row went right on back toward the west wall. + +Mr. BALL. Along the west wall? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and +as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see. + +Mr. BALL. There was also a carton of books where they found some +handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? +Don't you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that carton? + +Mr. SHELLEY. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books--sixth +grade. + +Mr. BALL. Where were those cartons usually stacked? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall. + +Mr. BALL. About where that was found, was it not? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that +was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How far away from the place where those books were usually +stacked? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west +wall. + +Mr. BALL. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, about 3 feet. + +Mr. BALL. About 3 feet? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the +piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its +proper place? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall +on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of +some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton +was sitting on it there. + +Mr. BALL. By itself? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he? + +Mr. SHELLEY. An order filler. + +Mr. BALL. An order filler? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a +clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; all of the boys do. + +Mr. BALL. All the boys use clipboards? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip +on it and it was homemade--he could have made it himself. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know who made it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No; I'm not for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth +floor? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and +told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go up and look at it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I went up with him and he got it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a name on it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I think it had Frankie's name on it--Frankie Kaiser's +name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made +before--he was all times making them. + +Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come +down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one. + +Mr. SHELLEY. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful +busy down there is the reason I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look +it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and +initial them. That's all, and thank you. + +Mr. SHELLEY. All right; thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDWARD SHIELDS + +The testimony of Edward Shields was taken at 4:25 p.m., on May 14, +1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by +Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. State your name. + +Mr. SHIELDS. Edward Shields. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I live now at 1432 Stirling. I was living at 414 Cleaves +Street. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I work in the shipping department, but some guy put it +down that I worked as a shipping clerk. I do receiving and shipping +with the shipping department. + +Mr. BALL. Of what company? + +Mr. SHIELDS. With the Texas School Book Co. at 1917 North Houston, at +the warehouse. + +Mr. BALL. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of +Houston and Elm? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Co.? + +Mr. SHIELDS. It will be 14 years the 14th of August. + +Mr. BALL. But you work in the warehouse? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you out watching the parade pass +by? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I was. + +Mr. BALL. For what time? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I'd say from about 5 to 12 to about 10 after 12; I mean, +about 5 to 12 to 10 after 12--I heard the shooting. + +Mr. BALL. The shooting was at 12:30. + +Mr. SHIELDS. It was--that's when we was standing there watching the +parade when it came through. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get around to see him before? + +Mr. SHIELDS. We just got on the parking lot there because we go up +there and sit down there and talk with James Tracey. + +Mr. BALL. Who is James Tracey? + +Mr. SHIELDS. He was the manager of the lot--there's somebody else there +now. + +Mr. BALL. That lot is where? + +Mr. SHIELDS. It's near Record and Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Near Record and Elm? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You say you go up there to a parking lot? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Well, we go over there every day at noon and talk to the +fellow that ran it, but that's not the same fellow there now. + +Mr. BALL. But had you, prior to November 22, 1963, had it been your +custom of going over there to see him at noon? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I had been going by there every day at noon. + +Mr. BALL. What about Givens? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I would be going some days when he wouldn't go, but I +would see him--James Tracey--every day at noon. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you go over there? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I was there--yes; I was there. + +Mr. BALL. Approximately what time? + +Mr. SHIELDS. That was around 5 to 12--that would be to 5 after 12. + +Mr. BALL. What about Givens? + +Mr. SHIELDS. He was there at noon after he had eaten his lunch, I mean, +he come on up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I sure did. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it when you saw it? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I was just standing right around there at Mullendorf's +Cafe. + +Mr. BALL. At what address? + +Mr. SHIELDS. On Record and Main. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Givens. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear any shots? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; I heard the shots. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you and Givens do after you heard the shots? + +Mr. SHIELDS. I said, "The President has been shot"; we walked back to +the lot and where Tracey was. I heard one shot and then a pause and +then this repetition--two shots right behind the other, and I thought +it was backfire from a car and I said, "Someone shot the President." + +Mr. BALL. You said, "Someone shot the President"? + +Mr. SHIELDS. That's right, I did. I didn't know what had happened. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Well, Givens run down here--right down here. + +Mr. BALL. He ran down here to this building? + +Mr. SHIELDS. He ran down to the next corner. + +Mr. BALL. And what was the next corner? + +Mr. SHIELDS. That was on Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Did you come with him? + +Mr. SHIELDS. No; I did not--he had me to stay there at the lot. + +Mr. BALL. And they all ran down there? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Givens again? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; we came back to the building--he and Tracey. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SHIELDS. We came back down to the Texas School Book Depository +Building here and tried to get in the building and they wouldn't let no +one in--he couldn't get in and I went on back to the warehouse. + +Mr. BALL. What did Givens do? + +Mr. SHIELDS. Well, they came and got him because he was working here +and I was at the warehouse. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave with the police? + +Mr. SHIELDS. No; I didn't. I was at the warehouse and he had come here. + +Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. This will be written up and you will +be asked to sign it and to make any corrections that you wish, you may +make them in your own handwriting, and somebody will call you from the +U.S. attorney's office and let you know when to come up. + +Mr. SHIELDS. OK. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much. + +Mr. SHIELDS. OK. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SAM GUINYARD + +The testimony of Sam Guinyard was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 2, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Sam, and hold up your right hand? Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Sam Guinyard. + +Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] G-u-i-n-y-a-r-d, and what is your +address--where do you live? + +Mr. GUINYARD. 2815 South Ervay Street. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you working on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. GUINYARD. On East Jefferson--501 East Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Harris Motor Co. + +Mr. BALL. A used-car lot? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Porter. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you, Sam? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I am 28. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you born? + +Mr. GUINYARD. In Ennis. + +Mr. BALL. Ennis, Tex.? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Ennis and Hillsboro. + +Mr. BALL. And how far through school did you go? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I got to the sixth grade. + +Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, what kind of work have you +done mostly? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Compress work. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Press cotton--pressing cotton. + +Mr. BALL. When did you come to Dallas? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I have been back in Dallas ever since 1957. I lived +in Plainview about 13 years. + +Mr. BALL. At--what kind of work have you done since you came to Dallas? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, a porter in a carlot. + +Mr. BALL. A porter in a carlot? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble in your life? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; nothing but a little poker fines that otherwise +I paid and I got a couple of tickets in my life. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on the day of November 22, 1963, that's the day the +President was killed, what were you doing? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Working there. + +Mr. BALL. And you heard about it, that he had been shot? Didn't you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; at the time I did. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing and where were you then when you heard +that? + +Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff at 501 East Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Polishing and waxing a station wagon. + +Mr. BALL. And did something else happen that day that you remember? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, this was when Oswald shot the policeman. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard--I just want to know what you were +doing and what you heard? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was about--I guess---- + +Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute, were you polishing cars when you heard +something? + +Mr. GUINYARD. When I heard a shot. + +Mr. BALL. You heard a noise? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And it sounded like shots? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I heard three. + +Mr. BALL. Where did the sound come from? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Right behind me, north of me--behind me. + +Mr. BALL. What street is north of you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Tenth. + +Mr. BALL. You were on what street--your carlot faces what street? + +Mr. GUINYARD. It faces Jefferson and 10th. + +Mr. BALL. And 10th Street is north? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; and I was in the back--I was about half way right in +the back. + +Mr. BALL. The cross street is Patton Street? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you heard the shots? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I raised up trying to see where they were coming from, +where the sound was coming from. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third +shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running--came right through +the yard in front of the big white house--there's a big two-story +white house--there's two of them there and he come through the one +right on the corner of Patton. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see down to the corner of 10th and Patton to the +house? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I seen him when he come between the two houses, come +around in front of the last house to get on Patton Street to come out +to Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw this? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Where was I? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. GUINYARD. I was there at the back, right at the alley back there +about as far from Patton Street as--about twice as far from here as to +that window. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you were about 10 feet from Patton Street? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So that you could look up Patton Street? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. North on Patton? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you saw a man, did you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells +out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand. + +Mr. BALL. With which hand? + +Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out. + +Mr. BALL. He had it up? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this. + +Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb. + +Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this +[indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where was he with reference to the corner of Patton and +10th when you saw him? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Where was he? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. GUINYARD. Just as he come around the corner on Patton, he cut +through the yard and missed the corner on 10th and Patton and cut +through the yard. + +Mr. BALL. He cut through the yard of the house on the corner of 10th +and Patton? + +Mr. GUINYARD. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it? + +Mr. GUINYARD. The west--southwest corner--the southeast corner is where +he started across, but he come out on Patton on the southwest corner. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across +the yard of the house on the southeast corner? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That's the white house? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; the big two-story white house. + +Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he come down Patton until he got to about 5 feet +from the corner of Jefferson and then he turned across and went across +to the west corner on Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be +the east side. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there? + +Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were together? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back. + +Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The alleyway that runs along the north side of the lot? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, where was Oswald when he passed you going south toward +Jefferson? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was between the alley and the driveway coming +off Patton. + +Mr. BALL. And he was across the street from you, wasn't he? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No; he was on this side of the street. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the east side of the street? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; and he was too--he was on the east side of the +street until he got across our driveway and then he got onto the west +side. + +Mr. BALL. How close was he to you when you saw him? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I guess he was about 10 feet from me--maybe. + +Mr. BALL. About 10 feet? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway has told us and we measured it with a tape +measure, that Oswald was on the west side of the street, and we +measured it and he figured it was about 55 feet from him when he passed. + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he crossed over after he crossed the driveway. + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mr. GUINYARD. Mr. Callaway followed him, you see, we was together--he +was my boss at that time and he followed him. + +Mr. BALL. Callaway? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; trying to see which way was he going. + +Mr. BALL. And then, which way did he go after he got to Jefferson? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He went west on Jefferson--on the right-hand side--going +west. + +Mr. BALL. And what did Callaway do? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He turned around and run back to the street and we helped +load the policeman in the ambulance. + +Mr. BALL. He ran back up to 10th Street, did you say? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go with him? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Right with him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a police car there? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see besides the police car? + +Mr. GUINYARD. The police that was laying down in the front of the car. + +Mr. BALL. A policeman? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was he dead or alive at that time? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He looked like he was dead to me. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Helped put him in the ambulance. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed there until the ambulance came? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there when the truck came up that was driven by +Benavides? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He came up right after this? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he came up from the east side--going west. + +Mr. BALL. And then what did you do after that? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, we stood there a while and talked and I called him +Donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun. + +Mr. BALL. Who did--Benavides? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick them up--any of them? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He picked them up--I didn't pick them up--I was there +with him. + +Mr. BALL. You were there? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I was there with him. + +Mr. BALL. You were there when he picked them up? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around +the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the bushes? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in +the yard just laying down through the yard--that little old shrub that +was there. + +Mr. BALL. Later that day, did you go down to the police department? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; I went down that night. + +Mr. BALL. That same night? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down with? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Me and Ted. + +Mr. BALL. You and who? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Ted--Ted Callaway. + +Mr. BALL. Ted Callaway? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you went to the police station? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I went to the identifying office. + +Mr. BALL. You went into a place where there were police officers? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And how did you identify him--tell me what happened to you, +what you saw? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I just saw him. + +Mr. BALL. Well, were you in a big room? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--in a big room. + +Mr. BALL. With police officers? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I don't understand you. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see some men up ahead of you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men. + +Mr. BALL. Four men? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men--handcuffed together. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say? + +Mr. GUINYARD. They was handcuffed together. + +Mr. BALL. They was handcuffed? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; all four of them. + +Mr. BALL. Were they of different sizes? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much +difference in size. + +Mr. BALL. In height--they were about the same? + +Mr. GUINYARD. About the same. + +Mr. BALL. Were they all about the same color? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. + +Mr. BALL. All about the same color? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to any police officer there after you +saw them? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I talked to one--with the detective--after he came out +there. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him--I mean in this room--as you saw these +four men up there? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He just asked me reckon I could identify them and I said +I sure could. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I just told him I sure could. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say to him about it? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I didn't say anything--I was just waiting on them +to bring them in. + +Mr. BALL. After they brought them in and after you looked at them, what +did you tell the police officers? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that was him right there--I pointed him out +right there. That was him right there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember where he was standing in the lineup--what +number he was? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know what his number was, but I can tell you +where he was standing at. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he standing? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He was standing--the second man from the east side, and +that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from +that there end. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell any police officer that you thought that was +the man? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you tell; what police officer was it? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know his name. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know his name? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; I don't know his name but I know him now if I +would see him. + +Mr. BALL. Before you went in there, did the police officers show you +any pictures? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did the police officer say anything to you before you went in +there? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say that he thought they had the man that killed the +police officer? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ted Callaway say anything before you said you +thought that was the man? + +Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you with Ted at the time? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How close was Ted to you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Oh--sitting about like that. + +Mr. BALL. You mean 3 or 4 feet away from you? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; something like that. + +Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand? + +Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and +a little sort of light-gray-looking jacket. + +Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt. + +Mr. BALL. A white T-shirt? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a white T-shirt on under it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, he had a light gray jacket on? + +Mr. GUINYARD. And a brown shirt on. + +Mr. BALL. And a white T-shirt on? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Underneath it, because this brown shirt was open at the +throat and the white T-shirt under it like this [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. That's all I've got to examine you about now, except to show +you these clothes, and they are upstairs. We will go up now and take a +look at them. + +(At this time Counsel Ball, the witness Guinyard and the reporter +Oliver left the deposing room on the third floor of the Federal +Building and resumed in a deposing room on the fourth floor of the +Federal Building and the deposition proceedings continued as follows:) + +Mr. BALL. Sam, I'll show you an exhibit here, which is a piece of +clothing and which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever +seen this before? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When and where? + +Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody wearing it? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me a little more about it. + +Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff and down in the courtroom. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Down in the examining room. + +Mr. BALL. When this man came down Patton Street toward Jefferson with +his gun, you have mentioned he had a shirt on? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You described that shirt as a brown shirt? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Does this look anything like the shirt? + +Mr. GUINYARD. It looks just like it does. + +Mr. BALL. You saw that shirt before? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Down at the city hall. + +Mr. BALL. At the police station? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you tell them when they showed you this shirt? + +Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that that's the shirt he had on. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162; +have you ever seen this before? + +Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket. + +Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket. + +Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot. + +Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on? + +Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions for you, Sam, and I thank you for +coming down, and you can go home now. + +Mr. GUINYARD. Thank you. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY + +The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on May 7, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State +of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police +Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: + +When testifying before the President's Commission, I stated I did +not remember who returned the two spent 6.5 hulls and envelope to my +possession on the night of November 22, 1963. Since returning to Dallas +Detective C. N. Dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought +the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again +for fingerprints even though I had checked them when they were picked +up on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository about 1:20 +p.m. November 22, 1963 by Detective R. M. Sims and myself and placed in +a manila envelope. Since talking to Dhority I remember now that he was +the one who returned the shells to me about 10:00 p.m. and stated that +his office wanted to retain one. He left me two shells and the envelope +that Detective Sims and I had previously marked. It was then that I +scratched my name on the two shells that were released at 11:45 p.m. to +Agent Vince Drain along with the rifle and other evidence. + +Signed this 7th day of May 1964. + + (S) J. C. Day, + J. C. DAY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY + +The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on June 23, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State +of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police +Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: + +The following affidavit is made to clear up confusion regarding the +three spent 6.5 hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, found +by the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository on +November 22, 1963. The hulls were picked up by Detective R. M. Sims +and Lieutenant J. C. Day and placed in an envelope. Detective R. L. +Studebaker was also present. The envelope was marked and dated by Sims +and Day. Detective Sims took the hulls after they were checked for +fingerprints by Day. The third hull, commission number 545, was later +released directly to the FBI by the Dallas Police Department Homicide +Division. At 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, Detective C. N. Dhority +brought the three hulls in the marked envelope back to Lieutenant Day +in the Identification Bureau office to recheck for prints. Dhority +retained one hull, commission number 545 and left the other two, +commission numbers 543, 544 along with the envelope with me to be sent +to the FBI. Vince Drain, FBI agent, took custody at 11:45 A.M. the same +day. When I appeared before the commission April 22, 1964, I could not +find my name on one of the hulls, identified as commission number 543, +and thought this was the hull that had been retained by Dhority. On +June 8, 1964, the three hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, +were back in Dallas and were examined by Captain G. M. Doughty and +myself at the local FBI office. Close examination with a magnifying +glass under a good light disclosed that my name "Day" was on all three +hulls, at the small end. Also GD for Captain George Doughty was on two +of them. Commission numbers 543 and 544 were the first two sent to +Washington on November 22, 1963. They have Doughty's initials where he +marked the hulls as they were released to Vince Drain at 11:45 P.M. on +November 22, 1963 by Doughty and Day. The third hull, commission number +545, does not have Doughty's mark, but is plainly marked "Day". In +Washington, I had numbers 543 and 545 switched because I didn't find my +name on number 543. I can identify commission numbers 543, 544, and 545 +from my name on them, as the three hulls found on the sixth floor of +the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. As to the time +I scratched my name on the hulls, I do not remember whether it was at +the window when picked up or at 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, when they +were returned to me by Dhority in the marked envelope. It had to be one +or the other, because this is the only time I had all three hulls in my +possession. Both Detective R. L. Studebaker and Detective R. M. Sims, +who were present at the window when the hulls were picked up, state I +marked them as they were found under the window. + +Signed this 23d day of June 1964. + + (S) J. C. Day, + J. C. DAY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY + +The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on June 1, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + CITY OF WASHINGTON, + _District of Columbia, ss_: + +I, Thomas J. Kelley, being first duly sworn do upon oath depose and +state: + +I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to +Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C. On November 22, 1963, +I was not in the City of Dallas at the time of the assassination of +President John F. Kennedy. I was instructed through Deputy Chief Paul +Paterni to go to Dallas directly from Lexington, Kentucky, where I had +been engaged in a special assignment and arrived on Friday evening in +Dallas at approximately 10:30 p.m. + +I attended a total of four interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald, all of +which were held in the office of Captain J. W. Fritz of the Homicide +Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. Three of these interviews +occurred on November 23 and the fourth on November 24. (Prior to my +arrival in Dallas, Oswald had been interrogated on November 22.) + +Subsequent to these interviews I dictated summaries from my notes +of the subject matter discussed and these dictated summaries were +transmitted to Chief James J. Rowley on November 29 and December 1, +1963. + +Copies of these written summaries are attached to this affidavit as +exhibit A and incorporated by reference herein and made a part hereof. +The summary of my last interview with Oswald which occurred on Sunday, +November 24, 1963, was the first portion of a four-page memorandum +which included in addition to the report of the interview, my report on +the circumstances immediately following the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +I hereby certify that the attached memoranda constitute my total +written memoranda of the interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald at which I +was present. I have no additional recollection at this time which I can +add to the attached memoranda. I further certify that these memoranda +accurately summarize my notes and recollections from these interviews. + +Dated this 1st day of June 1964. + + (S) Thomas J. Kelley, + THOMAS J. KELLEY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF J. W. FRITZ + +The following affidavit was executed by J. W. Fritz on June 9, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss._: + +Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State +of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police +Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and +says: I wish to supplement the evidence given by me on Wednesday, April +20, 1964, before the President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy, as follows: + + +_The Spent Rifle Hulls_ + +Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast +corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, +Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers +called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor +touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make +pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected +from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of +the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of the building, +brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to +me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an +envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority +of the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of +the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these +hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to +the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison +tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the +cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the +Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in +my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November +27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the +morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a +notebook that belonged to Oswald. I came to the office and delivered +these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these +items in our report. + + +_Reference to the Testimony of Roger Craig_ + +I don't remember the name Roger Craig, but I do remember a man coming +into my outer office and I remember one of my officers calling me +outside the door of my private office. I talked to this man for a +minute or two, and he started telling me a story about seeing Oswald +leaving the building. I don't remember all the things that this man +said, but I turned him over to Lt. Baker who talked to him. Lee Harvey +Oswald was in my office at this time. I don't remember anything about +Lee Harvey Oswald jumping up or making any remarks or gestures to this +man or to me at this time, and had I brought this officer into my inner +office I feel sure that I would remember it. There were other officers +in my inner office at the time, and I have found no one who knows about +the remarks that you have asked about. + +Signed this 9th day of June 1964. + + (S) J. W. Fritz, + J. W. FRITZ. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARY JANE ROBERTSON + +The testimony of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson was taken at 12:20 p.m., +on May 28, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, +Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Robertson, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the +provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by +the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order +and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn +deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of +the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon +the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to +you, Mrs. Robertson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine +what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent +facts you may know about the general inquiry. + +Now, Mrs. Robertson, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of +a general request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel +of the President's Commission, in a letter addressed by him to Chief +Curry, asking Chief Curry to request that you come here. Under the +rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written +notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted +also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he sees fit +to do so. Now, I must first ask you if you wish to receive the 3-day +notice, or whether you are willing to waive it? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am quite willing to. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise then, and raise your right hand so that I may +administer the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, ma'am? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. My name is Mary Jane Robertson or Mrs. Jim G. +Robertson, as I go by. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present residence address? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. 619 Lacewood, L-a-c-e-w-o-o-d [spelling] Drive, in +Dallas, of course. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am classified as a clerk-typist with the city civil +service. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's Dallas? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes--Dallas--and I work in the special service bureau +of the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are a civil service employee but +assigned to the Dallas Police Department? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so assigned? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Just about a year and a half--October the 1st I started +to work there, so just about a year and a half. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you there on Friday, November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. The day the President was killed? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I certainly was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to work there and what +time you left? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; at that time I was coming to work at 7:15 and +leaving at 4:15--those were my hours. + +Mr. HUBERT. At 7:15 in the morning? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. At 7:15 in the morning and leaving at 4:15 in the +afternoon. Now, as to the exact time I left that afternoon, I cannot +tell you to the minute because, well, further on in the testimony you +will probably want to ask, but Jack Revill, Lieutenant Revill, asked me +to take a letter for him, the exact time of which I cannot tell you, +but I do remember this very well--my husband had a vacation. He had +been on a hunting trip and he was at home, so when Jack asked me to +write this letter I went in and phoned home and I said, "I might run +just a few minutes late because I don't know if this will be a long +letter or a short letter, or what it will consist of," and I did have +the car, and ordinarily I would have been home, say, leaving the office +at 4:15, in 20 or 25 minutes, you know, but I did get home more or less +around 5 o'clock--which was the usual time. I mean, I didn't run, you +know, real late or anything, but that part--I definitely remember, and +my husband does, too. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the letter of Lt. Jack Revill you just talked about was +the thing that caused you to be delayed? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That was what I stayed to write--yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that is a fact? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That is a fact. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that was the last thing you did that day? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; when I completed the letter. + +Mr. HUBERT. Normally, you would have left at 4:15? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; and I am saying that I didn't run too much after +4:15--the point of it--now, exactly what time I started on that--I +don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Normally, how long would it take you to get to your home +from your office? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, you see, if I leave at 4:15 I make a little +better time than if you wait until 4:30 because the more traffic starts +then, and it's hard to say exactly, but I go on the freeway, and it's +probably 20 minutes and if it's heavy traffic probably 25--you know +what I mean? + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to state, then, that you probably left at +about 4:30? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I would assume so. Now, I'm not saying to the very +minute or anything like that, but I am saying that approximately--if it +was after 5 o'clock, it was very shortly after when I got in the car, +you know, I did not run what you would call late by hours or so. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you two documents, but I want to +identify them with reference to your deposition, so I am marking a +document which has been already identified as Commission Exhibit +No. 838, as follows: "Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, +of the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson," and I am signing my +name below that, all of which appears in the left margin, and I +am doing precisely the same to the other document, which bears the +identification, Commission Exhibit No. 709, except that I am marking +this as Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of Mary Jane Robertson, signing +my name to that. + +Now, Mrs. Robertson, I would ask you to look at Exhibit No. 1 and +Exhibit No. 2 which are identified and ask you if that is the letter to +which you have previously referred as having been written or typed by +you for Lieutenant Revill? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I didn't this--because I know nothing about this down +here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are pointing to Exhibit No. 1 and you are covering with +your hand the affidavit portion? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say you know nothing about that? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. The letter itself, you have noticed that they are actually +identical, one appears to be an original and the other a copy? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right--I was trying to see if there was a +difference. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember writing these letters yourself? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Why, yes; I wrote them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything on the letter that identifies you as +having written them, I mean like the usual little marks put on the +letter by a stenographer? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No; that's something I always do, but what I mean, the +state of confusion--well--I'm sure you can't have a conception of the +state of confusion that office was in--our main secretary was out, she +had a dental appointment and she had left earlier that morning, there +were only two girls in the office and the two deskmen. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you do identify the letter? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Definitely--I identify the letter. + +Mr. HUBERT. You identify it from the sense of it or what? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, this is something that I did not memorize +verbatim, and could not have repeated--what I mean--per word, but I +could have told you the general gist of the letter, is what I mean, +yes--the actual facts. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it dictated to you? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Lieutenant Revill came in and said, "Mary Jane, I would +like for you to take a letter," and like I said, our stenographer was +out of the office on an appointment, and I said, "Of course, now, Jack, +this has been a hard day and you know I don't take shorthand and if you +will be patient with me and let me write it out in longhand, I will be +happy to do it for you." That is when I made my phone call home, and +so he said, "Well, you take your time," and he said, "I know you don't +take shorthand and that's quite all right," and I had him even spell +such names so as to be certain of--you know--the agent's name and all +like that. He sat across the desk from me, as we are doing here. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was written out in your hand? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; now, Jack, as I remember--I speak of him, we are +very informal in our office, as Lieutenant Revill--Lieutenant Revill, +as I recall, did have several papers or rough drafts that possibly he +had written out or something, but he did speak verbally to me and I +wrote in my own handwriting and I used a shorthand notebook. I wrote in +my own handwriting. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then you used your own handwriting for the purpose of +writing the letter? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your own handwriting notes? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Anything like that I always take and I tear up and put +in the wastebasket. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you think that's what happened here? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, I'm certain it did. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know the existence of those notes now, is +what I am getting at? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many copies you made? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. There again, I could not swear to you under oath +exactly. Ordinarily we make an original and five. Now, whether +Lieutenant Revill just might have said that an original and three will +be enough, I cannot tell you. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how many you made? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No--I cannot--I absolutely do not remember that. + +Mr. HUBERT. But the normal practice would have been to make more than +one copy? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. More than the original? + +Mr. HUBERT. More than the original and one copy--normally you would +write the original and how many copies? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Now, by this going to the captain that is not +necessarily so. Anything we address to the chief we would have +definitely more than one carbon copy, but for little instances like +that, I cannot remember--Lieutenant Revill just might have said "an +original and one will be enough." + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that he did say so? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I do not--absolutely. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you don't really know how many you did make? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I cannot tell you--I cannot remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. When the letter was finished, what happened to it? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I called Lieutenant Revill, as well as I can remember, +I called him into my office. Now, I might have gone into his office, +but I took it directly to him. I waited and let him read it and let him +proof it over to see it and I know he questioned me--he said, "Are you +sure this is the correct way to spell assassination?" And I said, "Yes, +sir; I looked it up in the dictionary," and he read the letter and then +as I remember, I got my personal belongings together and I left the +building then. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you handed the original and copy or copies to him? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Directly to Lieutenant Revill. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you don't know what he did with it, to your own +knowledge? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Oh, no; I left the building. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what the figures in the lower +right-hand corner on Exhibit 1, that is to say, Commission Exhibit No. +838, mean? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. What do they mean? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. The captain has files of copies and that is his own, +and his own personal file. In fact, he gave me a letter, a photostat, +which he said it would be quite all right to show that that is his own +and that that appears on his file, you know what I mean, the way he has +it set up. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about what? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. The O-1 is what I'm talking about. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are showing me a document that is exactly the same +actually, it seems to be a photostatic copy of Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, +that you have just testified to. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right, this is in the captain's files. + +Mr. HUBERT. This is from the captain's flies and in the left-hand side +it shows "WPG"? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's Capt. W. P. Gannaway. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then over on the right-hand side it has "O-1" and you +say that those are his initials on the left-hand side, and on the +right-hand side is what, that is his indexing? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Correct--this is not in the outside file or anything, +it's in the captain's office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate that there is another copy other than +the two that you have just testified to, being Commission Exhibits Nos. +838 and 709? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, sir, will you phrase that again, I don't +understand it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you will notice that in Commission Exhibits Nos. 838 +and 709, both of which have been identified, respectively, as Exhibits +Nos. 1 and 2 for this deposition, do not have on the left-hand side the +initials of Captain Gannaway. Now, it could be that this document you +have just showed me is another copy or another photostat initialed? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Sir, I don't know. He called me in his office yesterday +and handed me the letter and I read it. I said, "Yes, Captain Gannaway, +this is the letter. I assume I typed it because this is the contents of +the letter that I typed." + +Mr. HUBERT. And you remembered it? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; so he handed it to me and he said, "Well, take +this along," and he said, "This, of course, Mary Jane, you well +know----" + +Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the "O-1"? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. The O-1, I don't ask questions, but I mean, he has a +file, of course, of the documents pertaining to this and so he said, +"Would you return the letter to me when you return from taking your +deposition?" + +Mr. HUBERT. He didn't authorize you to let me have this letter that you +have just showed me? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No; he did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I said before, I think you will agree with me +that this letter seems to be exactly the same as the other two, with +the exception that on the one that you have produced there are in the +left-hand corner, the initials WPG, which you say you identify as being +the initials of Captain Gannaway? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the other markings and +symbols on the bottom of Commission Exhibit No. 838? I refer first to +seemingly a rubber stamp in a square called "Indexed date 4-27-4" and +the initial "S." Can you tell me what that means? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I have no idea in the world, sir. I have never seen a +stamp like that. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then below that, the initials "Int," this being in +writing, and then "2965-34," do you know what that means? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I have no idea. Now, there again is our O-1, which +would be in our captain's files. Now, whether this is something +pertaining--I do not know whether this is something pertaining to his +files only, this subject matter. + +Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, from your own knowledge, except for the +O-1, as to which you have already testified, the rubber stamp and the +other figures in the lower right-hand corner in Exhibit No. 1 in this +deposition, being Commission Exhibit No. 838, as to those you know +nothing about? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I know nothing, sir. Once I handed the letter to +Lieutenant Revill, then I never saw the letter again until I was called +into the captain's office yesterday. I remember it in my mind, but as +far as seeing the actual document, I had not seen the actual document, +I mean a copy of it or anything. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be possible for you to call Captain +Gannaway and see if he would give you authority to let me have that +copy that you have shown us or perhaps take a photostat of it; can you +do that? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I will do that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a few minutes recess, then, and you call +Captain Gannaway and ask him if we might have that copy. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. All right; I will. + +(At this point the proceedings of the deposition of Mrs. Robertson were +recessed, during which time Mrs. Robertson made the call heretofore +referred to, and the proceedings were continued as hereinafter shown.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Robertson, you have attempted to reach Captain +Gannaway to see if he could give you permission to either let me have a +photocopy made of this letter which you showed me, or else have a copy +of that made, but at the moment you have not been able to reach him. + +Suppose we do this. I have already asked you all the questions that I +would ask you about the document, and suppose we do it this way--that +if you do secure permission to give it to me, then when it is delivered +at a later time today or at the latest, tomorrow, I will mark it as +Exhibit No. 3 of your deposition, do you understand? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. By simply writing my name and the date and then all of +the testimony which you have previously given as to that document +heretofore, but which did not refer to a numbered exhibit will apply to +Exhibit No. 3; is that all right? Do you understand what I mean? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes--I see--I understand what you mean. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that Captain Gannaway, from what you told +me, called you in yesterday and spoke to you about this. Has anyone +else spoken to you about this recently, at any time? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No, captain--I assume it was from this letter that was +addressed to the chief requiring my testimony on this--the captain just +said I was needed and that I had a choice of Thursday or Friday and +which would be more convenient? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand, and then he asked you if you remembered +it? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. He asked me first if I remembered the letter, and I +said, "Yes, very well," and I repeated the gist of the contents to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was the only time anyone had spoken to you about the +letter? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, when Lieutenant Revill went to Washington, +I believe, he went a matter of a week or 2 weeks ago and he said +at that time when he came back, when he returned from Washington, +he said, "Mary Jane, you know they may need your testimony on it," +and I said, "Well, that's fine. I certainly remember the day, and I +certainly remember the incident," and other than that there has been no +discussion. + +Mr. HUBERT. And there is no doubt in your mind that it was written, as +you say, on the afternoon of November 22, approximately between the +hours of 4 and 4:30 p.m.? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I would say that it was written more +between--yes--about then, because I was thinking from the--actually +the time he started giving it to me and all that--actually the typing +and waiting for him to proofread it and all like that--that I am +sure--because I went directly home to my family and told my husband +that I had typed the letter. + +Mr. HUBERT. And there can be no doubt about it being November 22, +either? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. No doubt in the world. + +Mrs. HUBERT. All right, Mrs. Robertson, thank you very much. As soon as +you find out from Captain Gannaway, perhaps you can arrange some way to +get the document delivered? + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Shall I personally have to deliver that to you, or can +it be sent by one of the officers? Is there a requirement about it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Just so that it is identified more particularly with your +testimony, if you get permission to hand me that document, or deliver +it in person, that's all that will be necessary. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, I'm quite sure the captain will not object. + +Mr. HUBERT. If you want to send it over, I would like you to place your +name on it just so that we will know it is the document we are talking +about, because after all, this is going to be read by people later, +and we know what we are talking about, but we must make it clear that +others will know from the whole record what it is. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. I see, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, very much, and I appreciate your assistance. + +Mrs. ROBERTSON. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT + +The testimony of Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt was taken at 3:40 p.m., on June +12, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Melvin +Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +(The oath was administered by the reporter.) + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you state your full name, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you have testified before the Commission in this +proceeding before? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. We will not rehearse your qualifications again, since +you have already been accepted as an expert in the field in which you +are going to be questioned today. + +Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you a photograph marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. +1, consisting of a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald holding a rifle, and +I ask you whether you prepared that photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a photograph of an existing Commission exhibit? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; this is a copy of the small photograph that is a +part of Commission Exhibit No. 133. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That would be 133-A? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't recall whether it is A or B. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you photographs of Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A +and 133-B and ask if this serves to refresh your recollection as to +whether Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a photograph of 133-A or 133-B? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a copy of the +Commission Exhibit No. 133-A. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the cover of Life +magazine, issue of February 21, 1964, which I have labeled Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you if this is a photograph which you have +previously examined in connection with earlier testimony given by you +to the Commission? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you page 80 of the same issue of Life, which is +labeled Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 3, and I ask you the same question, that +is, whether this is the photograph you have previously discussed in +connection with earlier testimony? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I am using duplicate originals +rather than the actual exhibits, because the actual exhibits are now +being printed up by the Government Printing Office. + +Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the front page of the Detroit Free Press, +issue of February 17, 1964, containing a picture similar to Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 1, and the other pictures thus far referred to--and I am +labeling this Detroit Free Press page Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4--and ask +you whether you have examined the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald and a +rifle appearing on that exhibit? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare this picture with 133-A or Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 1, your reproduction of 133-A? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion on the basis of that comparison? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found that the reproduction of the photograph of +Oswald holding the gun on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 has insufficient +detail to warrant positive identification as being the same photograph +as Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1. + +However, I did find that the photograph in the newspaper, Exhibit +No. 4, is consistent in all respects with the photograph which is +Exhibit No. 1, except for variations in retouching that are a normal +part of the process of making halftone reproductions from photographs +for newspapers. I further found that there was nothing in these +photographs to indicate that they are other than the same photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say that the only variations appear to be +variations in retouching, that would be based on the conclusion that +they were the same photograph, is that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe those variations which are apparently +due to retouching, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. There is an area to the right of Oswald's head +and shoulder, to my left as I look at the photograph, that has been +airbrushed or otherwise altered, to intensify the outline of the +shoulder, which would be Oswald's shoulder. + +In addition there is retouching around the stock of the rifle, and +along the other portions of the rifle where it crosses Oswald's body, +that has been added to intensify the detail in that portion of the +photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "around the stock," could you specify as to +whether you mean the top, bottom, end, or all three or any two of those +boundaries? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. In Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 there is retouching on both +the top and bottom and butt of the stock, and also a highlight running +along the top of the gun from the bolt forward toward the muzzle. + +There is an additional highlight along the bottom of the gun just +forward of the trigger assembly between the trigger assembly and the +hand. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, there is a highlight on Shaneyfelt Exhibit +No. 1 running near the top of the barrel or receiver, is that +correct--terminating at Oswald's left hand? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the relation between the highlight at the top of +the barrel or receiver in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 and the highlight +just referred to in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. In Exhibit No. 1, that highlight along the bolt of +the gun is in two parts, and the highlight in the photograph or +the reproduction of the photograph, Exhibit No. 4, is a continuous +highlight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it your opinion that the highlight in Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 4 is based upon the highlight in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But it differs, at least, in that it makes a continuous +highlight where none appears in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, is that your +testimony? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, a telescopic sight +is apparent on the rifle, and no such sight is apparent in Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 4. Do you have any opinion as to the reason for the lack of +a sight appearing on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give that opinion? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that the sight does not appear in the +reproduction of the photograph on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, because it +was not retouched to intensify the detail of the sight, and, therefore +was lost in the engraving process. I do not believe that there was any +retouching over the sight in order to purposely obliterate it from the +reproduction in Exhibit No. 4. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is there generally a loss of detail in reproduction +of illustrations appearing in newspapers, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is. This is apparent in other areas of +this photograph when compared with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, in areas +of Oswald's shirt, where wrinkling appears in Exhibit No. 1, and is +lost in the reproduction. Also, the wrinkles in the dark areas of the +trousers are not reproduced in the halftone process, but this detail is +lost by the process. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is this halftone process which you mention? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the halftone process by which a continuous tone +photograph, such as Exhibit No. 1, is photographed through a screen so +that it can be broken up into a dot pattern of black dots on a white +background and white dots on a black background to give the appearance +of a continuous tone in the printed newspaper reproduction. And this is +the only means by which a continuous-tone photograph can be reproduced. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why is it called a halftone process? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't really know the answer but I would assume that +it is because it gives you the tones in between black and white, or the +halftones. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, a loss of detail is inherent in this process, is it? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is true, particularly in regard to newspaper +reproductions, where a relatively coarse screen is used in making the +halftone. In a magazine publication, where a higher quality of printing +is used, and a better quality of paper is used, it is possible to use a +finer screen and thereby retain a greater amount of the detail. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, referring once more to the highlight running +along the top of the weapon, and terminating at Oswald's left hand in +Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4; when you compare this exhibit with Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 1, does it appear that that highlight actually runs along +the top of the weapon? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. In the reproduction of the photograph on Exhibit No. +4, the impression is given that the highlight is along the top of the +rifle, because you see no additional detail above that highlight along +the top of the gun. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if you compare that with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, +where a similar highlight appears, does that highlight actually denote +the top of the weapon, or is any detail above the highlight apparent in +Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. On Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1, the highlight does not +denote the top of the weapon. There is detail present that shows other +areas of the gun, the breech, above the highlight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would you say then that detail of the weapon +itself, that is, the upper part of the weapon, had been lost along with +detail representing the telescopic sight? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Bringing your attention back to Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. +2 and 3, which are the Life photographs, how did these photographs +compare with Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, the Detroit Free Press +photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. The primary difference is in the retouching. In the +area above and behind Oswald's right shoulder, the background has been +retouched out on Exhibit No. 4, the Detroit Free Press. In the Life +magazine reproduction, Exhibit No. 2, the background has been left in, +and the retouching has been added to the shirt area around the right +shoulder to enhance the detail along in that area. + +The Life magazine reproduction, Exhibit No. 2, also has retouching +around the scope of the rifle in order that it will not blend into the +dark shirt that Oswald was wearing and thus be lost in the reproduction +process; this has not been done in Exhibit No. 4. The retouching along +the top of the rifle stock is generally similar, in that it is in a +straight line from the butt of the stock to the bolt. However, Exhibit +No. 4 has a different type of retouching along the end or butt of +the stock and the bottom of the stock or the lower edge of the stock +between the butt and the trigger guard. Highlights along the top and +bottom of the breech area are different in Exhibit No. 4 than in +Exhibit No. 2. + +There is a dark shadow between the legs of Oswald that is about halfway +between the knee and the crotch that has been left in the reproduction +of Exhibit No. 4, but has been retouched out of the Life magazine +reproduction, Exhibit No. 2. These are the primary variations in the +retouching on the two exhibits. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the highlight running at or near the top of +the receiver or barrel in the bolt area show a continuous or an +intermittent form in Commission Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Commission Exhibit No. 2 shows a break in the +highlight along the bolt, and is reproduced very close to the original +photograph, which is Exhibit No. 1. + +In fact, this area was probably not retouched, or this highlight was +probably not retouched, for the Life magazine reproduction. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also mentioned that the retouching along the +stock was different when Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 2 is compared with +Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4. Could you go into a little bit of detail on +that difference? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I mentioned that the highlight along the top from +the butt to the bolt is generally similar in that it is in a straight +line. Although the rifle itself is actually curved along that area, +they both have been retouched in a relatively straight line along the +top edge of the stock. There has been a white or light line added along +the butt of the stock where it crosses Oswald's leg in Exhibit No. +4 and this has not been done in Exhibit No. 2. In addition, a white +outline has been drawn in along the bottom edge of the stock as it runs +from the butt to the trigger guard in Exhibit No. 4. This has not been +done in Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, when retouching is effected, is it +performed on a negative or on a print? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Retouching for newspaper reproduction is almost always +done on the print. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what about magazine reproductions? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. This would also be true of magazine reproductions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And would that explain how Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 +and 4 could differ from each other, even though they were apparently +both taken from the same print, originally from the same print, of +which Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 is a photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; that would explain the difference. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is--could you go into detail on that? Could +you elaborate that answer? By what process would the result of a +reproduction of the same print differ, as reproduced in two different +media or two different magazines or newspapers? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Well, the primary variation would be in the retouching +that has been added. Different publications and different retouch +artists would handle a photograph differently, and add different +retouching to them. Therefore, these would be the main variations which +you would have between two different reproductions. In addition there +can also be differences in the quality of the engraving, as there +are differences in quality of many things. A newspaper reproduction +is made with a coarser screen and gives less detail than a magazine +reproduction that uses a finer screen and, therefore, reproduces more +detail. These are some of the basic things that would affect these +reproductions and make variations in the reproductions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you page 80 of Newsweek +magazine, issue of March 2, 1964, also containing a photograph like +those we have been examining, and this is marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. +5, and I ask you whether you have examined that photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your conclusions, please? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found that the photograph reproduced in the Newsweek +magazine, issue of March 2, 1964, which has been marked as Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 5, is the same in all general characteristics as the +photograph that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, and +I found no differences to suggest that it is other than the same +photograph---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Except for variations in retouching. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I take it that your testimony concerning Shaneyfelt +Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5 is that due to some loss of detail it is +impossible to say that these photographs are identical to Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 1--or rather Exhibit No. 133-A, on which Shaneyfelt Exhibit +No. 1 is based--in the same way you can say that a fingerprint is +identical to a given fingerprint impression; is that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. I was not able to positively identify +them, because of this loss of detail. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your opinion as to the probability that they are +identical, bearing in mind that it is impossible to make an absolute +unqualified determination of identity? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. They may very well be identical since I found no +significant differences other than the retouching. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there much doubt in your mind? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Very little. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the factors which have been mentioned so +far as apparently due to retouching, and those factors which you have +not yet discussed but will, was there any difference between the +reproductions and the original, between the apparent reproductions and +the original? That is, was lighting the same, position, and so forth? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I found them to be the same in all of these +general characteristics as to lighting and position of hands and +position of body, their relation to the background. I found no +differences whatsoever. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that for the photograph to be a different photograph, +I take it, you would have had to have Oswald line up exactly in the +same position, with his elbows and torso in precisely the same relative +position, with the rifle at precisely the same relative height and in +precisely the same relative position as it had been in previously, with +the lighting casting the exact same shadows, insofar as shadows are +visible, and so forth, is that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you found no discrepancies in those items I have +just mentioned? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. + +To make the record complete, is there any other possibility, no matter +how remote? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; even though it would be extremely remote, it is +conceivable that a person could actually make a drawing or painting of +a picture exactly like this, that when reproduced in a newspaper or +publication with its loss of detail would resemble Commission Exhibit +No. 133-A, in the same manner that this picture or this reproduction +resembles Exhibit No. 133-A. + +Mr. EISENBERG. "This reproduction" being which, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Either Exhibit No. 4, or Exhibit No. 5, Exhibit No. 2, +any of the magazine or newspaper reproductions that we have discussed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are not talking about Commission Exhibit No. 133-A +itself, which you testified to earlier? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. No, no. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any evidence of this, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I do not, and I think it is in the realm of +unreasonable doubt and it is highly improbable. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5, could you +describe the apparent retouching in that exhibit? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is airbrushing in the background area that +shows beside the right shoulder of Oswald, where the tree that shows in +Exhibit No. 1 has been airbrushed out to a darkened area. There have +been highlights added to the rifle, a straight highlight along the top +of the stock, running from the butt of the stock to the bolt, a bright +highlight along the butt of the stock. + +There has been rather elaborate retouching around the bolt area or +breech area of the rifle. The highlight that appears in Shaneyfelt +Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt of the gun, which appears as a broken line +or two segments of a line or highlight, appears in the reproduction on +Exhibit No. 5 as a broken line very much like the actual highlight in +the photograph which is Exhibit No. 1. + +There has been a highlight added parallel to that, along the bottom of +or just below that area in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 5, which +does not appear in Exhibit No. 1. + +The top of the rifle has been emphasized with a strong highlight, and +the highlight in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 5 along the top of the +rifle does not conform to the actual top of the rifle as it can be seen +in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1. + +There are some other highlights added above that, that are rather +unexplainable but may be highlights relative to the lower portion of +the scope. + +Also a highlight has been added along the top of the barrel between +Oswald's left hand and where the barrel extends past his left shoulder. + +There has been some retouching added around the pistol on the right hip +of Oswald, and around the holster. These are the primary points that +have been retouched. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, does this photograph, Shaneyfelt Exhibit +No. 5, more closely resemble the Detroit Free Press photograph, which +is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, or the Life photographs, Shaneyfelt +Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. It corresponds to the reproduction in the Detroit Free +Press, Exhibit No. 4, and not as well to the reproduction on Exhibit +No. 2, which is the Life magazine. In fact, the reproductions on +Exhibits Nos. 4 and No. 5 both have two white specks along the right +leg between the knee and the right foot, centrally located in that area +one above the other, that do not appear in the original photograph, +which is Commission Exhibit 133-A, and do not appear in the Life +magazine reproduction on either Exhibit No. 2 or 3. This would indicate +to me that these two photographs may have originated from the same +basic source or basic print. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in fact, the credit under Shaneyfelt No. 5 says, +"Copyright 1964, Detroit Free Press," is that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But is the picture identical in all respects to the +Detroit Free Press picture? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; the retouching, particularly around the breech of +the rifle in Exhibit No. 5, which is the Newsweek reproduction, is +different than the retouching on the reproduction in Exhibit No. 4, the +Detroit Free Press. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the reproduction around the breech, that is, just +below Oswald's left hand, correspond to anything you have ever seen on +a rifle, Mr. Shaneyfelt--that is, the four or five roughly parallel +lines? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; it doesn't correspond to anything that I recall +having seen on a rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think the genesis of all those lines would +be? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that they are possibly the artist's +interpretation of how the rifle may have looked in that area, since the +photograph being retouched was indistinct in that area. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that would be likely to have been done by +a person not familiar with rifles? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is a possibility, but I wouldn't be able to state +that with any degree of certainty. That is one possibility. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I also see that Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 has an arrow +pointing to the revolver, which is not present in Shaneyfelt Exhibit +No. 5, is that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5 differs +from Exhibit No. 4, although it seems to be substantially similar, and +in fact Newsweek credits its photo to the Detroit Free Press, which is +the Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 picture? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I would attribute these differences to the +differences in retouching. Since it would be normal procedure in +publications of this type for each publication to do its own retouching +for its own reproductions, they would normally receive the picture in +an unretouched condition from whatever source is available, such as the +Associated Press, or, as in Exhibit No. 3, the credit to the Detroit +Free Press, and after receiving the unretouched photograph, would then +add the retouching that they desired to have on the photo before making +the halftone reproduction. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The area to the right of Oswald's shoulder and head, +that is, to the left of the shoulder and head as we look at the +picture, appears to be retouched or airbrushed out in the same way in +both pictures. Would that be your conclusion? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; with one exception, that while the airbrushing +is generally similar, it appears in the Detroit Free Press, which +is Exhibit No. 4, as a light area against a black shirt, while in +Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, it appears as a black area against a rather +dark shirt, with a light highlight added along the shoulder to make the +area stand out against the background. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it your conclusion, then, that two separate +retouchings were done to accomplish that effect, one retouching by the +Newsweek people and one retouching by the Detroit Free Press people? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I have no foundation on which to base a positive +statement in that regard, but this is suggested by the variations that +are present. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that the presence of that same feature as a retouch +in both photographs might be coincidental, or at least might not have +been done by the same person? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in your mind that similarity of feature does not +preclude the possibility that a completely unretouched photo was +submitted by the Detroit Free Press to Newsweek? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you page 30 of the New York +Times, issue of February 19, 1964, which again contains a photograph +similar to those you have been testifying as to--and which page I +have marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6--and I ask you whether you have +examined that photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what is your conclusion concerning that photograph, +Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found this to be generally similar in all visible +characteristics to the photograph which is Commission Exhibit No. +133-A, and found no differences to suggest that it is other than the +same photograph as Exhibit No. 133-A. However, the lack of detail in +the halftone reproduction on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6 precludes a +positive identification with Commission Exhibit No. 133-A. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any retouching in this photograph, Mr. +Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. In the photograph reproduced on Exhibit No. 6 this is +retouched along the right shoulder and to the right side of the face of +Oswald. In this instance, that has been put in in a solid medium gray, +to make it appear as the extension of the building or the fence that +appears in the background of the original photograph. + +There is retouching around the rifle stock--in fact, the stock itself +seems to have been lightened all along the lower portion near the butt; +a highlight along the top has been retouched along the top from the +butt to the breech; some retouching along the butt of the stock, and +also along the bottom edge of the stock, running upward toward the +trigger. + +The highlight that appears in Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt as a +two-section highlight or a broken highlight appears in this same +general area on the gun in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 6 as a solid +highlight and one continuous line. There has been a highlight added +along the bottom of the gun just forward of the trigger guard and just +below Oswald's left hand. Also a highlight has been added along the top +of the gun above Oswald's left hand to show the gun as apart from the +dark shirt, so that the gun and shirt do not blend into one continuous +tone at that point. There appears to be some retouching of Oswald's +shadow, in that it has been toned down to a medium gray shadow so that +it will not blend into the lower portion of his legs. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the reproductions which you have so far +examined does this most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt: the Detroit Free +Press, the Life, or the Newsweek reproduction? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. This corresponds to both the Detroit Free Press and the +Newsweek reproductions of the photograph, in that it contains the two +white dots along the right leg, centrally located between the ankle and +the knee as they appear in those two reproductions, and, therefore, +may be derived from the same basic print, since this characteristic +does not appear in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A or in the Life magazine +reproductions on Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What about the retouching in the New York Times +photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt, how does that compare with the retouching +in the Detroit Free Press and Newsweek photographs? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. The retouching is different from any of the other +Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude, therefore, that the New York Times, +like Newsweek, may have received from its source an unretouched +photograph which it proceeded to retouch? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that again the similarity in retouching to the upper +right of Oswald's shoulder and head might be coincidental? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; actually, there is considerable difference in the +retouching in that area on the New York Times photograph as compared +to the Newsweek and Detroit Free Press exhibits. The New York Times +has attempted to make it appear as a wall, whereas the other two have +merely airbrushed out the line, and it looks like foliage. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The stock in all three of these photographs, that +is, Detroit Free Press, Newsweek, and New York Times, has also been +retouched in a similar manner, that is, so that the top of the stock +appears straight, whereas actually the top of the stock is curved--is +that correct? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think accounts for the coincidence of the +retouching in these two areas--that is, the top of the stock and the +area to the upper right of Oswald's shoulder--given the differences +you have noted in the details of retouching? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I would attribute that to a lack of detail in the +photographs that they had, and a lack of understanding of the formation +of a normal rifle stock on the part of the retoucher. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the front page of the +New York Journal-American, issue of February 18, 1964, which again +contains a photograph similar to those you have been discussing, and +which I have labeled Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 7, and ask you whether you +have examined that photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my conclusion that this photograph is the same +in all visible characteristics as the photograph which is Commission +Exhibit No. 133-A, and I found no differences that would suggest that +it is other than the same photograph. However, because of the lack of +detail in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 7, it is not possible to +positively identify it as the same photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is retouching apparent in this photograph, Mr. +Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe that in detail? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there has been retouching along the right shoulder +of Oswald, and to some degree around the head, in order to have the +head and shoulder not blend into the background. This appears to have +been done by increasing the highlight or lightening the highlight along +the shoulder, rather than darkening the background. + +There is a highlight added along the top of the rifle stock that runs +quite straight toward the bolt, but it is not as strong a highlight +as in the other reproductions we have discussed. There is a highlight +along the top of the rifle between Oswald's left hand and the point +where the rifle passes his left shoulder. There is a suggestion of some +retouching around the rifle scope, which is almost lost in the detail +or almost lost against the black shirt, but it is barely visible. There +is a dark shadow that appears in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A that has +been retouched out of Exhibit No. 7 reproduction, that shadow being +about halfway between the knee and the crotch of the trousers between +the legs. Those are the primary points of retouching. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the various photographs which you have examined +does this Journal-American photograph most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. The Journal-American photograph reproduction on +Exhibit No. 7 is different from the Detroit Free Press, Exhibit No. +4, Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, and New York Times, Exhibit No. 6, in +that the white spots along the right leg between the ankle and the +knee do not appear in the reproduction in the Journal-American. It +very closely corresponds to the reproduction on the front of the Life +magazine, which is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 2. In fact, the retouching +appears to be very nearly the same. The lack of detail in the Newspaper +reproduction on Exhibit No. 7 precludes positively saying that it is +identical, but it is my feeling that it is probably identical. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out some of the similarities in +retouching? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the retouching along the top of the rifle stock, +the retouching around the right shoulder and around the head, to +the right of Oswald's head, the retouching around the top of the +rifle above the left hand, the elimination of the shadow between +the legs just below the breech of the trousers are the same in both +reproductions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any notable difference between those +reproductions, the Life and Journal-American reproductions? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; no notable difference in the retouching. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any opinion as to the source of the +Journal-American photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is not possible to positively state, but I note +in examining the Journal-American reproduction, which is Exhibit No. 7, +that the face area in particular has a design in the light shadow areas +which I recognized as being typical of a halftone reproduction made +from another halftone reproduction. And because of the presence of this +characteristic in the shadow area of the face, and the manner in which +the photograph is cropped or trimmed, I am of the opinion that it is +highly possible that the reproduction in the Journal-American, Exhibit +No. 7, was made from a Life magazine cover, issue of February 21, 1964, +containing the reproduction of the photograph of Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you elaborate on your statement that the cropping +is a factor in leading to this conclusion? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; on Exhibit No. 2, which is the Life magazine +cover, if a straight line is drawn vertically past the right edge +of the Life sign on the front of the magazine, so that the sign is +blocked out, and that straight line is continued through a shadow area +comparable to the shadow in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 7, the +cropping along that edge of the photograph then becomes identical to +the cropping on the Journal-American photograph. This would suggest +that the picture was purposely cropped in that manner to eliminate the +Life magazine printing in the upper left-hand corner of the magazine +cover. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the Life magazine picture, and also the +Journal-American picture, show cropping as against the original, that +is, Exhibit No. 133-A? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. The Life magazine photograph does not show all +of the photograph that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, the +photograph having been cropped down closer to the head, cutting out +some of the overhead area. There has also been considerable cropping on +both the right and left margins, when you compare the Life magazine and +Journal-American reproductions with Exhibit No. 133-A. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other feature on the Journal-American +photograph which leads you to conclude that it was taken from the Life +photograph? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in the lower right-hand corner of the Life +magazine cover, Exhibit No. 2, there is a strip set in, containing the +printing "February 21, 1964, 25 cents." If the Journal-American did, +in fact, reproduce this picture from a Life cover, it would have been +necessary for them to retouch out this strip of printing in the lower +right-hand corner of the Life magazine cover, and I find on examination +of the reproduction on the Journal-American that there is retouching in +this area. The background of the grass is inconsistent, in that it has +been darkened around that area, and there is also darkening along the +foot and leg, and the shadow area has been altered in between the two +feet in a manner to strongly suggest that this strip has been retouched +out in order to make the reproduction on the Journal-American, Exhibit +No. 7. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, do you have anything to add to your +testimony? + +Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, thank you very much then. That will be all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN + +The testimony of James C. Cadigan was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 30, +1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Melvin Aron +Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +(The oath was administered by the reporter.) + +Mr. CADIGAN. I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, the purpose for which we are here is to +go into the facts of the assassination of President Kennedy, and +in particular we have asked you to testify concerning analysis of +questioned documents. Mr. Cadigan, could you state your full name and +your position? + +Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan. I am a special agent of the FBI, +assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the FBI laboratory +in Washington, D.C. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you been in this field, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Twenty-three and one-half years. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your training in this field? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Upon being assigned to the laboratory I was given a +specialized course of training and instruction which consisted of +attending various lectures and conferences on the subject, reading +books, and working under the direction of experienced examiners. + +Upon attaining a required degree of proficiency, I was assigned cases +on my own responsibility, and since that time I have examined many +thousands of cases involving handwriting, hand printing, typewriting, +forgeries, erasures, alterations, mechanical devices of all types, +pens, paper, and ink. I conduct research on various problems as they +arise and assist in the training of our new examiners. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in Federal or other courts, Mr. +Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; in many Federal and State courts, and military +courts-martial. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 773, +and I ask you whether you have examined that item. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that consists of an application to +purchase a rifle, addressed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Mr. +Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm +labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of +microfilm? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That microfilm will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1. + +(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, was Exhibit No. 773 developed from a +negative contained in Cadigan Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it was printed from that roll. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 780, consisting +of the Marine Corps file of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. +778, consisting of two letters extracted from Oswald's State Department +file; Commission Exhibit No. 781, consisting of a passport application +by Lee Harvey Oswald, dated June 25, 1963--at least "Passport Issued +June 25, 1963"; and Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, consisting of a letter from +Lee Harvey Oswald to John B. Connally, then Secretary of the Navy. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 2.) + +Mr. CADIGAN. This is in two parts. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In two parts, and the second part consists of a letter +from Lee Harvey Oswald to a Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins, dated +7 March 1962, and a group of documents, comprising photographs of the +balance of Lee Harvey Oswald's State Department file, labeled Cadigan +Exhibit No. 3. + +(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. I ask you whether you have examined these various items. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you explain the meaning of the +term standard or "known documents" as used in the field of +questioned-document examination? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Known standards are samples of writings of an +individual which are known to be in his writing and which are available +for comparison with questioned or suspect writings. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined certain questioned writings allegedly +prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, have you, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your examination, what documents did you use as known +documents? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, Commission Exhibit No. 781, +Commission Exhibit No. 778, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, and Commission +Exhibit No. 780. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, during the balance of the examination +I will refer to these documents collectively as the known or standard +writings. Mr. Cadigan, a portion of the known documents and a portion +of the questioned documents are photographs rather than originals; is +that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you able to identify the handwriting of an +individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you make an identification, such an +identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if +the photograph was sufficiently clear? + +Mr. CADIGAN. If the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate +for the handwriting comparison. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Similarly with standards, if your only standard was a +photograph or your only standards were photographs? + +Mr. CADIGAN. If your standards were also photographs, it is possible to +make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And were the photographs in this case, both the standard +and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the basis of an +opinion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out that some of the known standards +are original documents and not photographs. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I am aware of that, but I wanted to set out on the +record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. They are adequate. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To serve as standards. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Commission Exhibit No. 773, did you compare +the handwriting on that exhibit with the writing in the known standards +to see if they were written by the same person? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That the writer of the known standards, Lee Harvey Oswald, +prepared the handwriting and hand printing on Commission Exhibit No. +773. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs or charts which you could +use to demonstrate the reason for that, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will you produce them? You are handing me an enlarged +photograph of Commission Exhibit No. 773, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And constitutes an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. +773? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A.) + +And have you prepared photographs of the standards, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The first photograph is an enlargement of the letter to +Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins? Is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 4. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 4.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the second photograph is an enlargement of a letter +from the State Department file, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Enlargement of a letter in the State Department file. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In the State Department file? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 5. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 5.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. The third is an enlargement of a second letter in the +State Department file, the first letter having been dated "Received +November 1, 1962," and this letter dated "December 7, 1962, Received +December 11, 1962," is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 6. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 6.) + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a letter to the State Department without an +apparent date, beginning, "Dear Sirs: Please forward receipts to me for +final payment of my loan" and so forth, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 7. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 7.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Next is another letter from the State Department file, +reading, Dear Sirs, please add this $10.00 to my account No. 38210 +dated October 8. Is that also from the State Department file, Mr. +Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 8. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 8.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Next is the letter to then Secretary of the Navy John +B. Connally and a page from the letter to Brigadier General R. McC. +Tompkins, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 9. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 9.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is in two parts, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is two pages. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a photograph of the passport application +referred to earlier? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 10.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. And, finally, a photograph of the reverse side of that? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which will also be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. + +Now, in each case, Mr. Cadigan, were these photographs prepared by you +or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. They were. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And are they accurate photographs of the items described +as being the subject of the photographs? + +Mr. CADIGAN. They are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, with reference to your enlargement, +Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, and your photographs of standards, Cadigan +Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, could you state some of the reasons which +led you to the conclusion that Commission Exhibit No. 778, of which +Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is an enlargement, is in the writing of Lee +Harvey Oswald, the author of the known documents? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; on Commission Exhibit---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. You can refer to your photographs. + +Mr. CADIGAN. The enlarged photograph, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, +contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with +the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. I compared +both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not +the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was +present in both the questioned and the known documents. I found many +characteristics, some of which I would point out. + +On the order blank, in the "A. Hidell" and in the wording "Dallas +Texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "A" +in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is made in the same manner as the capital +letter "A" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The letter is formed with a short +straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. The top of it +is peaked or pointed. The right side is straight, and is shorter than +the initial stroke. The capital letter "D" in Dallas is characterized +by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a 30° angle. The lower loop +in some instances is closed. In the word "Dallas" the loop is closed, +and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. The same +characteristic I found in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, and 6 as well +as other exhibits. The word "Texas" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A is +characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that +the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt +change of motion to the following letter "a." This same characteristic +I observed in the known standard on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 9, and 4. + +In the address portion of the envelope, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, +appears the word "Dept." I noticed here, again, the same formation +of the capital "D." In addition, the entire word "Dept" appears +in the known standards on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. The +characteristics I would point out here are in the letter "p" in Cadigan +Exhibit No. 3, where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow +staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects +above the staff. The letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. In +the handprinting appearing in the exhibit marked Cadigan Exhibit +No. 3-A, the wording "Dallas, Texas" contains a number of the same +characteristics as Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, where the same wording +appears, and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 7 and 8. The writer uses a +script-type "D," and prints the other letters in the word "Dallas." +The "A" again is made in a similar way to the "A" in "A. Hidell," with +a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the +way up the left side of the stroke. The letter is relatively narrow, +and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. In the double "L" +combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. The +"S" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a 30-degree angle. In the +word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A the writer has used a small "e" +following the letter "T." The same characteristics will be noted on +Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 7, and 8. + +Additionally, I noted that in addition to the shape of the letters +themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between +the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned +documents are the same. + +On Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, in the portion for address, appears the +notation "P.O. Box 2915," and this same wording appears on Cadigan +Exhibit No. 5, and on No. 7 and No. 8 except for the "P.O." portion. +Here, again, I observed the same formation of the individual letters; +the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned +and known were observed to be the same. + +The tail of the "5" is made with a relatively long stroke and the same +characteristic appears in the known standards. In the hand printed +name "A. Hidell," on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, another characteristic +I noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "Hidell." The writer +makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in +the name. This same characteristic I observed on Cadigan Exhibit +No. 10, the passport application. With reference to the "i" dot on +Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the name "Hidell," in the return portion, +the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the +following letter "d." In the portion of the word "Chicago"--of the name +"Chicago"--in the address portion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, the "i" dot +is between the "o" and the "g" in "Chicago" and is well above the line +of writing. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 4 I observed the same displacement +of the "i" dot. In some instances, it is slightly to the right of the +body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from +the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the +bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right. + +Based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which +I have pointed out, as well as others, I reached the opinion that the +handwriting and handprinting on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A were written by +Lee Harvey Oswald, the writer of the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits +Nos. 4 through 10. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, the photographs which comprise Cadigan +Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10 are actually somewhat more limited than the +standards, in that they represent in some cases excerpts from the +standards, is that correct? Such as excerpts from the Marine Corps file? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you refer to the standards, Cadigan Exhibits +Nos. 4 through 10, do you mean by that that you based your conclusion +only on the excerpts shown in Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; the exhibits, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, were +merely prepared for demonstration purposes. The original examination +and comparison was made using all of the writings, the handwriting and +handprinting in the State Department file, the Marine Corps file, the +passport application and the two letters, one to Governor Connally and +one to Brigadier General Tompkins. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the documents which you identified very +close to the beginning of the deposition, and which I referred to +collectively as the standards? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 788, +and ask you if you have examined that exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that is the money order which was +included with the purchase order to Klein's. Have you prepared a +photograph of that exhibit, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 11. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 11.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this was taken by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate photograph of the money order, +Exhibit No. 788? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare Exhibit No. 788 with the standards to +determine whether Exhibit No. 788 had been written by Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That the postal money order, Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, had +been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The postal money order is Commission Exhibit No. 788 and +your picture is Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain some of the points of identity which +led you to the conclusion that you formed? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think that using the wording "Dallas, Texas" +appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 839 as an example of some of the +handwriting characteristics present on this exhibit---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. You mean Cadigan Exhibit No. 11? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. In the wording "Dallas, Texas," the writing is quite +characteristic. I noted, again, the overall size, spacing, slant, and +relative proportions of letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 were the same +as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6, and that the letter "D" was characterized +on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 with a relatively short staff, with a rather +long retrace on the left side of the staff, the body of the letter +ending in a large curling stroke. The small letter "a" is rather narrow +and somewhat flat. There is a rather long smooth connecting stroke +between the "a" and the double letter "l." The "s" is almost triangular +in shape, and has no ending stroke or tail to the right. + +Further, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, in the word "Texas" I noted again +the rather unusual shape of the small letter "x," in that it appears +almost as though it were a letter "u." The capital letter "T" in +"Texas" has a very long curved beginning stroke and a small eyelet or +loop in the lower portion of the letter. + +I noted these same characteristics on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6 in the +wording Dallas, Texas, and certain of the letters on Cadigan Exhibits +Nos. 6, 7, 8, and the entire word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 4. + +I noted also, again, that the small letter "p" in the word "sporting" +on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 was made the same as the "p's" in the known +standards as well as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the word "Dept," in +that the staff is long, in the form of a long closed loop, and the +upper portion of the letter extends above the staff and the body of the +letter is not closed to the staff. + +I further noted that on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 the wording "P.O. Box +2915" contained the same characteristics as the same wording in Cadigan +Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. And here again, based on a combination of +personal handwriting characteristics in the entire writing, I reached +the opinion that Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 had been written by Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. +135, which, for the record, is an order used for the purchase of the +revolver that was apparently used to murder Officer Tippit, and I ask +you whether you examined that exhibit. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And have you taken a photograph of that exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which you now have before you? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have an enlarged photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be Cadigan Exhibit No. 12. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 12.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. It is an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. 135? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, did you compare Commission Exhibit No. 135 +with the standard or known writings of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion as to the origin of 135? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That it was written by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give some of the reasons that led you to +form that conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same +combination of individual handwriting characteristics, both handwriting +and handprinting. For example, again the wording "Dallas, Texas," is +handprinted on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, and the same characteristics +appear in the same wording on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 7, 6, and 8. +The formation of the individual letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, the +spacing of the letters, the proportions of the letters, were found to +be the same as on the known standards. + +Additionally, the capital letter "D" in the name "Drittal" on Cadigan +Exhibit No. 12 has a rather unusual appearance in the upper portion of +the letter in that it is very pointed and wedge-shaped, and I found +this same shape present on the reverse side of the passport application +on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, page 2 in the word "Dec." + +Again, I noted the rather long tail or ending stroke on the number "5" +in the address portion of this exhibit. Again, based on finding the +same combination of individual handwriting habits in the questioned and +known writings, I concluded that Commission Exhibit No. 135 was written +by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 791, +which, for the record, is an application by Oswald for post office box +2915, dated October 9, 1962, and ask you whether you have examined that +exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, Mr. +Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 13. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 13.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is it a true and accurate photograph of 791? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether Commission Exhibit +No. 791 had been prepared by the author of the standards, Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That Lee Harvey Oswald had prepared the hand printing, +signature, and date on Commission Exhibit No. 791. This excludes the +box number and the wording "Dallas, Tex.," in the lower right portion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give some of the reasons why you came to that +conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the reasons are basically the same, the presence +of the same combination of both handwritten and hand printed +characteristics in the known and questioned exhibits. On Cadigan +Exhibit No. 18 we have the hand printed wording---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 18? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, excuse me, the passport +application, we have the wording "LEE OSWALD." This hand printed +signature is quite distinctive in the formation of the individual +letters, in the spacing of the letters, and their slant. For example, +the letter "L" on both Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan Exhibit +No. 10, there is a small hook in the upper left portion where the +downstroke begins, and there is a little tent or hill at the base of +the letter. The double letter "E's" also have a curve, a dent at the +base of the letter, although not so pronounced. Both letters, both +letter "E's," are approximately the same height as the "L." + +In the last name "OSWALD" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan +Exhibit No. 10 the "O" has a pointed or tented appearance in the upper +right portion, and the ending stroke curves down into the body of the +letter. The "S" and "W" in both the questioned and known are smaller +than the following capital letter "A." This capital letter "A" in both +instances is made in the same manner as previously described on other +exhibits. The writer uses a lower-case or small "l," and a lower-case +or small "d" for the last two letters of his name, the "d" portion or +the letter "d" in both instances being made with a straight-slanted +stroke, then an abrupt circular stroke to the left. + +In addition on this same exhibit I noted the formation of the letter +"i." The exhibit I refer to is Cadigan Exhibit No. 13--the "i" being +made very small in relation to the other letters adjacent to it. + +This document also bears the signature "Lee H. Oswald" which, again, +is a very characteristic signature. It appears in Cadigan Exhibit No. +13, the questioned document, and Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, +9, and 10. The signature I noted was written rather rapidly. It is +somewhat distorted in appearance. The initial "L" has a rather long +curved beginning stroke and relatively narrow upper and lower portions +of the letter. The letter "H" is made with two parallel strokes and +it can be seen that there is a very little retrace from the base of +the first stroke in the letter to the top of the second stroke in the +letter. + +The "O" combination is rather unusual in that the writer swings +into the letter "s" from the top of the "O." Also, as the signature +progresses to the right it increases in size, and very noticeably in +the "ld" portion where the "d" stands well above the line of writing. +And in this particular signature there is a long-swinging stroke from +the top of the "d," having a shape similar to a "u" lying on its side. +The base of the letter has a very sharp angular formation. + +Again, based on a combination of the same individual handwriting and +hand printing characteristics, I reached the opinion that Commission +Exhibit No. 791 was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 793, +consisting of a change-of-address card relating to box 2915. Have you +examined that exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph thereof? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 14. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 14.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is an accurate reproduction of +Commission Exhibit No. 793? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, getting back for a moment to Cadigan +Exhibit No. 13, I see that there is another picture shown on that +exhibit, apart from the one as to which you testified. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. That is a Post Office Department Form 1093, +application for post office box, and the post office box number is +6225, and it is signed, Lee H. Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And why is that included on the picture with Cadigan +Exhibit No. 13, or rather on the picture with Commission Exhibit No. +791? Is that because they were both from---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; it is part of another post office application that +does not relate to box 2916. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any particular reason for printing that up +with the photograph of Exhibit No. 791? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. I think it may have been part of another exhibit which +has not as yet been introduced. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does your identification of Exhibit No. 791 in any way +depend upon that photograph? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; not at all. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So we can disregard it for our purposes? + +Mr. CADIGAN. If you want to, I can take it out. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is in. + +Mr. CADIGAN. I mean I can just cut it along here. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I would rather leave it in, since it is in the record. + +Mr. CADIGAN. All right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I just wanted to make sure that it didn't need to be +discussed as part of the identification of Exhibit No. 791, and I take +it it does not? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, getting back to Commission Exhibit No. 793 and the +photograph thereof, which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14, did you attempt to +determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 793 had been prepared by Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The photograph of which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14. And +what was your conclusion on that? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Again, that Commission Exhibit No. 793 was written by +Lee Harvey Oswald, again based upon finding the same combination of +individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics in both the +questioned writing and the known standards. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss some of those common characteristics? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Here, again, the entire word "Dallas" and the word +Texas is made in a very characteristic manner which I have described +before, and which appears on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 6, 7, and 8. + +The signature "Lee H. Oswald" was found to have the same +characteristics as the known signatures, although here I noted that in +the ending "d" in Oswald the stroke was less cursive than the ending +"d" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, in that the writer makes a rather +narrow loop and does not cross the staff of the letter "d." I noted +this characteristic, also, in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10. I would +like to point out that here, again, the writer varies his individual +characteristics, which is entirely normal and expected, and actually +it adds weight to the characteristic to find that it does vary to +some degree. All writing, particularly signatures, are never exactly +duplicated and some variation is normally expected, and finding the +same variations in both questioned and known signatures increases the +value of it, so that, again, the presence of the same combination of +handwriting and hand printing characteristics in Cadigan Exhibit No. 14 +in the known exhibits enabled me to reach the opinion that Commission +Exhibit No. 793 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You used the term "cursive" in respect to this. Can you +explain the meaning of that term? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the ending "d" stroke is made with a flourish or a +sweeping motion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. +14 the stroke ends abruptly at the staff of the letter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And why do you call one "more cursive"? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Merely for description. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the term "cursive" apart +from your use in this instance? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I think cursive has also been used to describe the +roundness of writing as opposed to an angular shape. I think it also is +sometimes used to distinguish between handwriting and hand printing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 795, +consisting of an item purporting to be a Selective Service System +notice of classification in the name of "Alek James Hidell"; Commission +No. 801, a Selective Service System notice of classification in the +name of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 802, a registration +certificate of the Selective Service System in the name of Lee Harvey +Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 803, a photographic negative; Commission +Exhibit No. 804, a photograph negative; Commission Exhibit No. 805, a +photograph negative; and Commission Exhibit No. 811, a photographic +negative, and I ask you whether you have examined these various items? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Based on that examination, Mr. Cadigan, could you +discuss your conclusions concerning Commission Exhibit No. 795? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Commission Exhibit No. 795 is a fraudulent and +counterfeit reproduction made from the retouched photographic negatives +in Commission Exhibits Nos. 804, 805, and 811 which in turn were made +from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how were they prepared precisely, Mr. Cadigan? + +Mr. CADIGAN. These are photographic reproductions. What was done was +to take a genuine Selective Service System notice of classification, +Commission Exhibit No. 801 in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. From +this, a photographic negative was prepared. Then various portions of +the information, including the name, the selective service number, the +signature of the clerk of the local board were obliterated with a red +opaque substance, and I noted that in the course of this the individual +preparing the negative had inadvertently cut off portions of the +printed letters, had thickened printed lines, and especially I noted in +the signature portion had destroyed portions of the printed letters, +and I compared the Commission Exhibit No. 795 with the retouched +negative itself, and observed that the defects in the Commission +Exhibit No. 795 were due to the retouching of the negative. Although +the negative has been blotted out, or the information has been blotted +out, it is readily visible to the naked eye that on Commission Exhibit +No. 893, which was also examined in connection with the examination +of Commission Exhibit No. 795, the original writing, the original +signature and the typed information "Lee Harvey Oswald" and selective +service number is the same as it appears on Commission Exhibit No. 801. +The opaquing is merely to remove this information photographically. +There was an intervening step where a small negative or a reduced +negative of the lower portion of the face of the card which refers +to the penalty for violation concerning carrying the card itself was +made. The individual responsible made a reduced photograph but, again, +the same characteristics are apparent, and by comparing the print, the +photographic print Commission Exhibit No. 795 with these negatives, +it is possible to determine that the Commission Exhibit No. 795 was +produced from the negatives and the negatives in turn were produced +from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802. + +In this connection, I would point out that the reverse side of +Commission Exhibit 795 is the form used for a registration certificate, +and it is not a proper face of a notice of classification. Here, again, +the same procedure was followed. The original card is photographed. +The unwanted information is painted out with an opaque substance, and +then a photographic print is prepared. Then the individual responsible +typed in the information "Alek James Hidell" with the selective service +number, descriptive data on the reverse, and the number of the local +board. + +Further, an examination of the Commission Exhibit No. 795 shows the +individual had placed the photograph in a typewriter and struck +a number of keys which did not print. The indentations from the +typewriter keys can be clearly seen in side lighting. Also, in the +selective service number on the face of the card and the data on the +back of the card, indentations of typewriter keys were noted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning to the negatives, I see that in +Commission Exhibit No. 803, as you pointed out, the information that +was originally on the card is visible. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Whereas, in Commission Exhibit No. 894 it is not visible. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the difference? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; because Commission Exhibit No. 804 is an intermediate +step. Commission Exhibit No. 803 was first prepared, and a print was +made from this exhibit. The photographic print would not have the name +"Lee Harvey Oswald" in red on it. In the place of "Lee Harvey Oswald" +it would show as a blank. Then using the print, a second negative +is prepared, and further retouching is done, and also the warning +notice in a reduced form is inserted into the negative, so that the +data from the original notice of classification issued in the name of +Oswald appears on the first negative and does not appear on the second +negative, but both negatives are directly linked to the original card +of Oswald and to the counterfeit reproduction. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, have you prepared photographs of this card showing +some of the details you have been discussing? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 15. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 15.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This Cadigan Exhibit---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. Actually, there are four different photographs, +photographic enlargements that comprise Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, the +face and reverse of the notice of classification made in normal +lighting, and the face and reverse of the card made with side lighting +showing the typewritten indentations. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Let's mark those, then, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, +and 17, and 18. + +(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 18, +17, and 18.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 shows the face with normal +lighting? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 16 shows the reverse with normal +lighting? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 17 shows the face with side lighting? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 18 shows the reverse with side +lighting? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. These exhibits also contain pictures of another +questioned document which we will get to shortly, and that is the +certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell, is that +correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, starting with Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, could you +discuss several of the features on which you base the conclusions you +have given us earlier? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. The observation of this exhibit will show in the +blocks for the selective service number fragmentary portions of the +original selective service number. The lines have been thickened. In +the space provided for "been classified in Class," in the middle, in +approximately the middle of the space there is a heavy dotted line. By +comparing this with the original card issued in the name "Oswald" is +seen the lower portion of the capital letter "I." + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That we will mark Cadigan Exhibit No. 19. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 19.) + +Mr. CADIGAN. On the right-hand side of the card the word "President" +appears, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 a portion of the "r" and the "e" +is missing, due to the retouching. Examination of the corresponding +area on Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows that this was due to retouching a +portion of the signature of the local board. Similarly, in the wording +"heavy penalty for violation" appearing below the signature, the word +"violation" is considerably distorted in that portions of the various +letters are missing. The negative shows this is due to retouching, and +a comparison with the original card of Oswald, of which Cadigan Exhibit +No. 19 is an enlargement, shows where the lower loops of the letter +"f" cut into the letter, cut into the printed word "violation," which +required retouching by the individual to remove it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of these negatives to +illustrate these points? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is that photograph? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20.) + +Mr. CADIGAN. And by referring to the Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, which +shows the retouching, examination of the area in the word "President" +will show where the portion of the "r" has been cut off. It will show +where the capital letter "I" appears in the space provided "been +classified in Class," the "I" being part of the classification, Roman +numeral "IV-A," which appears on the original card. + +Cadigan Exhibit No. 20 shows, also, the intermediate negative where the +size of the warning appearing on the bottom of the card was reduced, +and the additional retouching made that causes the distorted appearance +of the word "violation" on the Commission Exhibit No. 795, so that +it was based on my comparison side by side of the negatives, the +photographic print, and the original exhibit in the wallet of Oswald, +which enabled me to determine that this Commission Exhibit No. 795 was +a fraudulent counterfeit made from retouched negatives which, in turn, +were made from the original exhibits, Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and +802. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I think that Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 16, 17, and 18 are +self-explanatory. + +Mr. CADIGAN. They merely serve to illustrate the indented typewriting +that appears on these exhibits. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 806, +purporting to be a certificate of service that Alek James Hidell has +honorably served on active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps, and ask you +whether you have examined that document? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 812, consisting of +two negatives. Have you examined those negatives? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination, have you come to any +conclusion as to the construction of Commission Exhibit No. 806? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; again, this is a fraudulent and counterfeit +reproduction made from photographic negatives which, in turn, were made +from the original card issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And where does that appear? That is the photograph you +are handing me now, which we will label Cadigan Exhibit No. 21? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 21.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 includes the selective service +registration certificate we have been discussing, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; it includes an enlargement of the original Selective +Service System registration certificate issued in the name of Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that is the Selective Service System certificate on +which the forgery in the name of Hidell was based? + +Mr. CADIGAN. From which the reverse side of the forged or the +fraudulent and counterfeit notice of classification was prepared. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Focusing our attention on the certificate of service, +could you illustrate by use of this photograph and any others you +have already introduced some of the points which led you to your +conclusion---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As to Commission Exhibit No. 806? + +Mr. CADIGAN. The two negatives in Commission Exhibit No. 812, which +appear on Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, show the areas of retouching. +Examination of the negatives themselves in Commission Exhibit No. 812 +shows that the original entries on the face and reverse side can be +seen. It appears in red. The face reads "Lee Harvey Oswald, 1653230." +And the reverse side bears his signature. + +From a study of the negatives and from the enlarged photographs, +Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, 17, and 18, I wish to point out some of +the evidence that links these three items together. On Cadigan Exhibit +No. 16, on the reverse side in the printed word "signature," the "u" is +misshapen, due to some of the retouched substance crossing the letter, +and this is exactly in the area where the upper portion of the name +"Lee" appears on the original card. This is seen on Cadigan Exhibit No. +21. + +Also on the line below, in which appears the printed wording "signature +of certifying officer," in the letter "n" in "certifying" can be seen +a long line which at first glance might appear to be a part of the +signature "A. G. Ayers, Jr.," but which corresponds exactly to the +ending stroke of the letter "y" in "Harvey." + +Also, in the printed word "officer" on the same line can be seen the +effects of the retouch in that the upper part of the first "f" has been +cut off by the retouch substance. So that by a study and a comparison +of the Commission Exhibit No. 806 with the negatives, with particular +reference to where the retouching fluid has cut into lines or printing, +and further comparing the same negative with the original card, as +shown in Cadigan Exhibit No. 21, I determined and it can be seen that +the Commission Exhibit No. 806 was produced from the negatives in +Exhibit No. 812, which, in turn, were produced from the original card +of which Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 is a photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, in either the fraudulent selective service +notice of classification or certificate of service, have attempts been +made to reinstate portions of printed lines which were blocked out by +the opaque substance? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; I didn't notice that, particularly. I noticed from a +technical standpoint that the opaquing was rather crudely done, in that +the opaquing of negatives is a common photographic technique, and with +reasonable care you can avoid cutting into lines. I didn't particularly +observe any areas where the lines had been put back in. + +This does not eliminate the possibility, because it is a very simple +matter of scratching through the opaque emulsion to produce such a line. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Where the line is thickened, as is visible in Cadigan +Exhibit No. 15, how would you account for that, Mr. Cadigan? I am +looking now at Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 in the block, that portion of the +rectangular block surrounding the number "224," and particularly the +bottom of the block. + +Mr. CADIGAN. A study and examination of Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows +that these areas correspond to the figures "114" which appear in the +second block of the Selective Service number, and which were not +retouched off. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So you feel that, rather than the bottom of that block +being thickened in the retouching, what you have is a residue from the +typed-in portion---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which appeared on the original card? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and this can be further seen. The right-hand side of +the block for the first two letters of the selective service number +shows a thickened area which corresponds to the numeral "1" on the +original card of Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning now for a moment to Commission +Exhibit No. 795, were you able to identify either of the two signatures +written in ink on that card, the one being "Alek J. Hidell," and the +other a signature written over the caption "Member or clerk of local +board"? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; I did examine the "Alek J. Hidell" signature appearing +as the signature of registrant, but the known writings available of +Lee Harvey Oswald were not sufficiently comparable with the signature +to reach a definite opinion. I did note, however, some similarities in +the letter "A" and in the last name, the letter "H" and the ending "l." +But these were not of sufficient weight nor of sufficient number nor of +sufficient combination to warrant a definite opinion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You say you compared this item, this signature with +the known standards. Did you compare the signature with questioned +documents which you already identified? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I wonder whether after this deposition +would you compare this signature with those questioned signatures of +"Alek J. Hidell" which you have now identified? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; certainly. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 817, +consisting of a portion of an application for a post office box 30061 +in New Orleans, POD Form 1093, and ask you whether you have examined +that item? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And have you attempted to determine whether that item, +Commission Exhibit No. 817, was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, whose +known writings we have introduced previously? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. On Commission Exhibit No. 817 the hand printed names, "A. +J. Hidell," and "Marina Oswald," and the signature "L. H. Oswald," were +written by Lee Harvey Oswald, based on a comparison with his known +standards of writing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of Commission Exhibit No. +817? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And does that also include a photograph of another item, +apparently another part of the application? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did your identification of the Commission Exhibit No. +817 depend in any way upon your identification of the other part of the +item which is shown in your photograph? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It did not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark the photograph Cadigan. Exhibit No. 22. (The +document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 22.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And it is an accurate photograph? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. We haven't been going over that with all the other +photographs, but is that true of all the photographs we have introduced +so far? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And any other photographs you may introduce during the +balance of this deposition? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, by use of that photograph and by use of +the photographs of the standards, could you explain some of the points +which led you to your conclusion concerning Commission Exhibit No. 817? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same +combination of characteristics in the hand printing and signature on +Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. For +example, the word "Marina" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 can be compared +with the same word or the same name on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the "M" +being characterized by a rather long beginning stroke, the center of +the letter is high, giving the letter somewhat the appearance of the +numeral "3" tipped on its side. The "A" is similar to or made in the +same way as previous "A's," with a pointed top, with the beginning +stroke about two-thirds of the way up the staff. The "i", again, is +very small in relation to the letters coming before and after it. +In the "N" there is a curve at the base of the letter. It is more +pronounced on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 than in the name "Marina" in +Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, but in the name "Lillian," on the same exhibit, +the same kind of curve is observed. + +In "Oswald," again in the signature "L. H. Oswald," I find the same +characteristics and combinations of characteristics. In the questioned +signature in Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 as in the various known signatures +in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, here I think the ending "ld," +the narrow pointed loops used for the "l" and "d" are very small, and +with a rather misshapen body or upper stroke. + +Again, it is the presence of the same combination of handwriting and +hand printing characteristics which led me to the opinion that this +exhibit had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 813, +a vaccination certificate, a purported vaccination certificate, signed +by "A. J. Hidell," and I ask you whether you have examined that item? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this bears writing on the outside and the inside. +Have you attempted to determine whether that writing is the writing of +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That the hand printing and the Oswald signature were +written by Lee Harvey Oswald, again based on the presence of the same +combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of this exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Those will be Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24. + +(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24.) + +Mr. CADIGAN. I would point out that these represent only a portion +of the original document, since for demonstration purposes the lower +printed blank is not included in these exhibits. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely +faint writing. Can you explain the reason for that? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent +fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was the document treated to restore the original color +after it had been treated for fingerprints? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it +has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the +chemical treatment remain. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you first saw the document and made your +examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had +it been treated yet for fingerprints? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I never saw the original. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You never saw the original? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; I had a Xerox copy of the original exhibit. I did not +see this original exhibit. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You said before you had examined this exhibit? + +Mr. CADIGAN. To be more exact, I examined a Xerox copy of this exhibit. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know who prepared the Xerox copy? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It was submitted by our Dallas office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was this a copy of the front and the back? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And are your photographs of the Xerox or of the original? + +Mr. CADIGAN. They are made from the Xerox. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this the first time you saw the original? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I believe it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination of the original at this +point, and a comparison of the photograph of the Xerox copies, would +you conclude that the Xerox copies had been made before the document +had been treated for fingerprints? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Very definitely. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note a few of the points which led you to your +conclusion concerning the handwriting appearing on the documents you +photographed as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the handwritten signature "Lee H. Oswald" is written +in a very distinctive manner. The "L" with its rather long beginning +stroke, and its narrow upper, and the lower loop, is almost in the +shape of a triangle. The large loop formation at the top of the "O" +leading into the letter "s" and the loop at the base of the "s" is +almost a carbon copy of the same characteristic appearing on Cadigan +Exhibit No. 10, page 2. And again, the narrow "l" and relatively large +"d" with a very pronounced ending stroke on the "d" is typical of the +manner in which this man writes his signature. + +So also in the hand printing, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, we see the +"LEE" and the "OSWALD," the little hook at the start of the "L" and the +reverse curves at the base of both the "L" and the following "EE's." +Again, we see the use of the lowercase "l" and the lowercase "d" in +the formation of "Oswald," whereas the rest of the letters are capital +letters. + +Here, again, the presence of the same combination of characteristics +led me to the opinion that this writing had been prepared by Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the signature "A. J. Hidell"? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; it does not. This signature is distorted, and the +standards, the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald I had available for +comparison would not justify any opinion concerning this particular +signature. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare it with the questioned items +which you had, theretofore, identified? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; without reaching any opinion one way or the other. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude that it was not written by Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; I would not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does it bear any similarities to Oswald's handwriting at +any point? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I didn't observe any that I thought were sufficiently +significant in characteristics to warrant pointing out. It is a +question of judgment as to how you evaluate a given characteristic. I +don't see, and do not see now, any characteristic worthy of mention to +either say Oswald did or didn't do it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 115, consisting of +a rubber stamping kit, and ask you whether you have examined that +stamping kit. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the stamping on the +document which you have photographed as Cadigan Exhibit No. 23, was +produced by the rubber stamp kit, Exhibit No. 115? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What conclusion did you reach? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I couldn't reach any conclusion because the exhibit that I +had, and from which Cadigan Exhibit No. 23 was made, is a Xerox copy, +and is not adequate for the rubber stamp examination of this kind. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see anything which led you to believe that the +stamp on on the document you examined could not have been made by +Exhibit No. 115? + +Rather than answer that question, could you undertake to perform an +examination based upon the original? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. At a subsequent time? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you will supply us with the results of that by +letter? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 819, consisting +of a photograph of a card, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans +Chapter, L. H. Oswald," with Oswald's signature, or a signature +purporting to be Lee H. Oswald's, and the signature "A. J. Hidell"; +and Commission Exhibit No. 820, which appears to be similar to the +photograph Exhibit No. 819, except that there is no signature apparent +in the space where the signature A. J. Hidell appears in Exhibit No +819, and I ask you whether you have examined these two items. + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is Exhibit No. 819 a photograph of Exhibit No. 820? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 820 is seriously discolored now and does not +have the words "A. J. Hidell" apparent. Can you explain how that came +about? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the original Commission Exhibit No. 820 had been +treated for latent fingerprints, and this is a chemical process which +has removed the ink of the signature. However, on examination under +strong side lighting and using low-power magnification, portions of the +letters "A," "J," and "H," of the signature of the chapter president +can be discerned, and are in the same place on the photograph, +Commission Exhibit No. 819, as on the original, Commission Exhibit No. +820. + +Furthermore, a comparison of the writing and the rubber stamp, +especially with reference to the position of these with respect to +lines and printing and other fixed points on the card, definitely shows +that Commission Exhibit No. 819 is a photograph of Exhibit No. 820, and +made before it was treated for latent fingerprints. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apart from this, did you take the photograph, +Exhibit No. 819? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; the photograph was made in our photographic laboratory. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you did see Exhibit No. 820, before it had been +discolored, did you not? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I don't recall at this time. It may well be that I did, +but I have no independent recollection of it now. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that your testimony that Exhibit No. 819 is a +photograph of Exhibit No. 820 is based upon your evaluation of the two +items as they exist now rather than upon recollection of Exhibit No. +820 before it was discolored? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or +desilvered? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee H. Oswald" or +rather L. H. Oswald is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is +not? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Some inks are more soluble in the solution used for +fingerprint tests than others? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Definitely. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Other Commission Exhibits, specifically Nos. 788, 801, +and 802 also appear to have been treated for fingerprints? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 788 has been desilvered? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Desilvered, and Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802 are still in +their original silvered condition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see these items before they were treated for +fingerprints? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I know I saw Exhibit No. 788 before it was treated for +fingerprints. As to Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802, I don't know at this +time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are the photographs which you produced photographs of +the items before they were treated for fingerprints or after? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; before they were treated for fingerprints. In other +words, it is regular customary practice to photograph an exhibit before +it is treated for latents for exactly this reason, that in the course +of the treatment there may be some loss of detail, either total or +partial. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take the photographs? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you referring to the photographs which you produced +at an earlier point? + +Mr. CADIGAN. The photographs that I have produced here today, the +various enlargements, were made from negatives. These negatives, in +turn, were made at the time the original exhibits were photographed, +and this would be before latent fingerprint treatment. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I asked you when I introduced those exhibits whether +they had been prepared by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is true. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You meant, then, that they were prepared under your +supervision, or did you mean that they were prepared by you in the +sense that you made the enlargement from the negative? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No; they were prepared under my supervision. In other +words, I maintain all of the negatives in connection with the document +aspects of this file in my room, under lock and key, at all times. I +pull the negatives that I want enlarged, and I prepare a photograph +requisition, take it down to our photographers, tell them what I want, +and then later go back and pick up the enlargements, and check them to +be sure they are just what I want. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What about the negative itself? Can you state of your +own knowledge whether the negative itself is of the original? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Only, insofar, that I know that on November 23, when the +vast bulk of this material came in, that it was photographed. Some of +these items I saw before they were photographed, and some afterward. +But the exact sequence to select one item out of four or five hundred, +I cannot, in all honesty, say I definitely recall seeing this before it +was photographed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what the procedure is when a document +came in involving the assassination? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Initially, the first big batch of evidence was brought +into the laboratory on November 23 of 1963 and this consisted of many, +many items. + +Mr. EISENBERG. 1963? + +Mr. CADIGAN. November 23, 1963. It was a very large quantity of +evidence that was brought in. There were several agent examiners +available to evaluate this material. There were supervisory officials, +there were representatives from our Internal Security Division, all of +whom had an interest in this matter, and it was decided they wanted +certain items treated for latent fingerprints. The basic rule is +always that before an exhibit is treated for latent fingerprints it is +photographed, and that is what was done in this case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What happens to the negative after it is photographed? +Were they all given to you? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the negatives that pertain to the document aspects +I took over and maintained under my control. Negatives pertaining to +firearms evidence or hairs or fibers, they were turned over to Mr. +Frazier. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So under the regular procedure, as soon as the document +came in it would be photographed, before it was treated for latents and +the negative would be turned over to you? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So at least if the procedure had been followed, any +negative you had would be a negative of a document before it had been +treated for fingerprints, is that correct? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning to Commission Exhibits Nos. 820 and 819, +did you prepare a photograph which would show the remnants of the +signature A. J. Hidell on the Commission Exhibit No. 820? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is the preparation of such a photograph possible? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I doubt it very much, because the indentations are so +faint that the enlargement would serve no useful purpose. Actually, +the best examination is by low-power magnification under the proper +lighting. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the signature of +Lee H. Oswald on this card was written by Lee H. Oswald? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That the Lee H. Oswald signature on Commission Exhibit No. +820 was written by Lee H. Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What about the signature "A. J. Hidell"? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I was unable to reach a conclusion. First of all, at the +time I compared this signature the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald +were inadequate for this particular comparison. + +I did, however, note that there were certain differences in this +signature that indicate the possibility of someone other than Oswald +having prepared it. But in my opinion, the characteristics I observed +were not of sufficient weight for a positive opinion in this regard. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note those characteristics? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think the capital letter "A" and the capital letter +"H" in "Hidell" are different from the "A's" that Oswald makes, that +appear in the enlarged photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Anything else? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I think the lower case "d," especially in the rounded +shape of the body of it and the relatively short height of the staff, +so that the staff compared to the body is very short. The "J" is +made different or in a different manner than Oswald regularly makes +or usually makes his "J's" in the known standards, but again it is +a question of judgment as to whether you believe a combination of +characteristics is enough to either eliminate or identify. In this +instance, in my opinion, these differences point to the possibility of +another writer other than Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You indicated before, also, that there was another ink +used. + +Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. This, of course, in and of itself, is of +no consequence, since the same person can use two different pens, so +the color of the ink would not be, in my mind, significant. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that signature appear to have been written +naturally? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. At normal speed? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Any evidence of retouching? + +Mr. CADIGAN. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Generally, were the signatures and other handwritings +in the questioned documents you have reviewed in this deposition today +written naturally? + +Mr. CADIGAN. With the exception of the "Hidell" signature on his +certificate of vaccination. There is, in my opinion, distortion +present there. But, by and large, in fact in almost all of the various +handwritings, hand printings, and signatures, there is no evidence of +disguise or distortion, in my opinion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What type of evidence indicates disguise or distortion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Distortion and disguise can take many forms. It can be +in the form of a change in slant, a deliberate malformation of the +individual letters. It can be shown in broken or interrupted strokes. +It can be shown in waves or wiggles in the line itself which should +not normally be there. It may be occasioned by a person using other +than normal hand, a left-handed person writing with his right hand or +a right-handed person writing with his left hand. All these introduce +elements of distoration or disguise. The extent of it can only be +determined by comparing a given writing with known writings, and +observing the characteristics present, and on that basis you can then +formulate an opinion as to whether or not there is any appreciable +amount of distortion or disguise. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How would you evaluate the possibility of another +person having simulated the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald in these +questioned documents? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I don't think there is any possibility. + +Mr. EISENBERG. On what do you base that? + +Mr. CADIGAN. I base that on 23 years experience and judgment and the +examination of the documents and the various writings involved in this +instance. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And do I understand that if that had happened, the +person would have left evidence behind which you would have detected? + +Mr. CADIGAN. In my opinion, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be in what form? + +Mr. CADIGAN. It would be in many forms. Failure to incorporate into the +writings things that should be there, and including in the writings +things that are not in Oswald's writing, differences in slant, spacing, +proportions of letters, both to other letters and proportions of +letters within themselves, the adoption of the various variations that +you find in the known writings. When the amount of writing approaches +the amount involved here, there is a large, a relatively large volume +of questioned writings. The possibilities of successful or undetectible +forgery, in my opinion, are nil. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 1, +which is a note in the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you +whether you have examined that item? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit Nos. 55, 56, and +66, consisting of various notes in the cyrillic language, rather in +the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have +examined those notes? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Who is the purported signer of those notes, Exhibits +Nos. 55, 56, and 66? + +Mr. CADIGAN. From the translation that I read these are purportedly +written by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these have also been identified by +Marina as having been written by Lee Harvey Oswald. + +And these are signed Alek in some or all cases? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; they are signed A-l-e-k, Alek in all three instances. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again, for the record, this is a name which was used for +Oswald during his period of staying in the Soviet Union. + +Have you attempted to determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 1 was +written by the person who wrote Commission Exhibits Nos. 55, 56, and 66? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. That Commission Exhibit No. 1 was written by Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs of Commission Exhibits +Nos. 55, 56, and 66? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; of the letters contained in those exhibits. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark those as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, 27, +and 28. + +(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, +27, and 28.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you also taken a photograph of Commission Exhibit +No 1? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark that as Cadigan Exhibit No. 29---- + +Mr. CADIGAN. Front and back. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, representing respectively +the back and front of Commission Exhibit No. 1. + +(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 29 and 30.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by use of photographs Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 +through 30, could you explain some of the reasons which led you to your +conclusion? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and I would point out that in addition to the four +enlargements written in Russian, I also used Cadigan Exhibits or the +documents represented by Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, the known +standards of Oswald, since there are English letters interspersed with +the Russian writing on Commission Exhibit No. 1. Thus, for example, in +the second line in Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 appears the word "to" which +is directly comparable to the same word appearing in Cadigan Exhibits +Nos. 4 through 10. This is characterized by a long sweeping upstroke, +and the recurving downstroke cuts the staff about in half. And the "o" +is without any tail, and it is relatively small and set fairly close +into the staff. The "t" crossing is rather long and fairly high. + +I noted these same characteristics in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through +10. + +Further, there is the wording in English, "Red Cross" appearing about +two-thirds of the way down the side of the page beginning with the +numeral 6, and here, again, I noted the same characteristics in the +English hand printing in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. Again, the +use of the small "e" and the small "d" in conjunction with the capital +"R," and then in the word "cross" he has used the capital letters. On +the face of the Commission Exhibit No. 1 appear the printed English +letters "ERVAY" which are almost directly comparable with the name "Lee +Harvey Oswald" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The E here is characterized +by the little loop at the base of the staff. The "R" has a flat closed +loop on the left side of the staff. The "Y" is constructed of two +strokes, almost a perfect "V" shape for the body and a tail slanting +back away from it. + +The letter "p" or what appears to be the letter "p," indicated by +the roman numeral 2 and a red arrow, is similar to the English "p," +characterized by a long narrow staff without much of a loop. The body +of the letter extends above the staff and the base is open. The bottom +of the letter is not closed in. + +The numeral "1" on the chart Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to a Russian +character which resembles somewhat the English letter "G," the capital +letter G. This is characterized by a rather large elongated loop along +the left side of the upstroke, and the finishing stroke is short and +straight. + +The numeral "3" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the Russian +word which resembles the English word "tbi." The "t" has a very long +beginning upstroke. The crossing of the "t" is high and is at the top +of the letter. The b is formed with a straight staff on the back side, +and there is a well spaced connection to the following letter which +resembles the English letter "i." + +I further noted that on this same side of the document shown in Cadigan +Exhibit No. 29 in the second to the last line from the bottom appears +the combination "exa," which is directly comparable with the "exa" in +"Texas" appearing on the photograph Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 4, and +9, among others. Again this characteristic way of making the "x" is +almost like a "u" or an open "o." There is a little extra stroke that +breaks off of the "x" so that instead of looking like "exa" it has the +appearance of "eva" with a diagonal stroke through the "v." + +The number "6" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the +combination which looks like the English letters "Ha," where the same +two letters appear on the photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 and 26, +the "H" being made in two roughly parallel straight strokes. The "a" +is almost in the form of a circle, and the tail of the "a" runs out +horizontally to the line of writing. + +On Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, the number "8" in red with an arrow points +to the combination of letters which resemble the English letters "tak," +and this same combination or the same letters appear on Cadigan Exhibit +No. 27. Again, the "t" has a rather long beginning stroke. The crossing +is high and long, and I noted that the "k" in both instances is made in +a similar manner. + +The figure "9" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 30 also points to a different +style of k, or what resembles the English letter "k," in that it is +composed of a straight staff and the body or the right portion of the +letter is almost the shape of a v tilted on its side. + +Because of this combination of characteristics, as well as many others, +I reached the opinion that Government's Exhibit No. 1 was written by +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 1, that is? + +Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, of which Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 30 and 29 are +photographic enlargements. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Cadigan. Thank you very +much. You have been extremely helpful. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF EARLENE ROBERTS + +The following affidavit was executed by Earlene Roberts on December 5, +1963. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Earlene Roberts, after being duly sworn, do depose and state: + +I live at 1026 Beckley, Dallas, Texas, where I serve as housekeeper for +a rooming house owned by Mr. & Mrs. A. C. Johnson. + +On Friday, November 22, 1963, at approximately 1:00 pm I was sitting in +the living room watching television about the President's assassination +when a man I knew as O. H. Lee, but who has since been identified as +Lee Harvey Oswald, came into the front door and went to his room. +Oswald did not have a jacket when he came in the house and I don't +recall what type of clothing he was wearing. + +Oswald went to his room and was only there a very few minutes before +coming out. I noticed he had a jacket he was putting on. I recall the +jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front. He +was zipping the jacket up as he left. + +Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. +I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop just to the +right, and on the same side of the street as our house. I just glanced +out the window that once. I don't know how long Lee Oswald stood at the +curb nor did I see which direction he went when he left there. + +About thirty minutes later three Dallas policemen came to the house +looking for Lee Harvey Oswald. We didn't know who Lee Harvey Oswald +was until sometime later his picture was flashed on television. I then +let the Dallas policemen in the room occupied by Lee Oswald. While the +Dallas police were searching the room two FBI agents came in. + +The police and FBI agents took everything in the room that belong to +Lee Oswald and also took our pillow case and two towels and wash cloths. + +I have made this statement, consisting of three pages, to Special +Agents William N. Carter and Arthur W. Blake of the U.S. Secret +Service. I have read this statement over and I find it to be true to +the best of my knowledge. + +Signed this 5th day of December 1963. + + (S) Earlene Roberts, + EARLENE ROBERTS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RALPH W. YARBOROUGH + +The following affidavit was executed by Ralph W. Yarborough on July 10, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +In response to the oral request of one of the attorneys for the +Commission that I send you an affidavit for inclusion in the record of +the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I make the following +statement: + +On November 22, 1963, as the President and Mrs. Kennedy rode through +the streets of Dallas, I was in the second car behind them. The first +car behind the Presidential car was the Secret Service car; the second +car behind them was Vice-President Lyndon Johnson's car. The driver and +a secret service agent were on the front seat of the Vice-President's +car. Vice-President Lyndon B. Johnson sat on the right side of the rear +seat of the automobile, Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson was in the center of the +rear seat, while I sat on the left side of the rear seat. + +After the Presidential motorcade had passed through the heart of +downtown Dallas, experiencing an exceptionally warm and friendly +greeting, as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the +railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close +by. I have handled firearms for fifty year, and thought immediately +that it was a rifle shot. When the noise of the shot was heard, the +motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could +have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, +another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time +between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put +the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot--by +my estimate--to me there seemed to be a long time between the first +and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third +shots--these were my impressions that day), a third shot was fired. +After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was +fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away +to the Parkland Hospital. + +I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. +I saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at +about the time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade +started up and raced away. + +Due to the second car, with the secret service men standing on steps on +the sides of it, I could not see what was happening in the Presidential +car during the shooting itself. Some of the secret service men looked +backward and to the right, in the general direction from which the +rifle explosions seemed to come. + +After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in +the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and +looked backward. However, all of the secret service men seemed to me +to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. In fact, +until the automatic weapon was uncovered, I had been lulled into a +sense of false hope for the President's safety, by the lack of motion, +excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, +that anything so dreadful was happening. Knowing something of the +training that combat infantrymen and Marines receive, I am amazed at +the lack of instantaneous response by the Secret Service, when the +rifle fire began. I make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, +not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and +I write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better +protection of our Presidents in the future. + +After we went under the underpass, on the upward slope I could see over +the heads of the occupants of the second car (Secret Service car) and +could see an agent lying across the back or trunk of the Presidential +car, with his feet to the right side of the car, his head at the left +side. He beat the back of the car with one hand, his face contorted by +grief, anguish, and despair, and I knew from that instant that some +terrible loss had been suffered. + +On arrival at the hospital, I told newsmen that three rifle shots had +been fired. There was then no doubt in my mind that the shots were +rifle shots, and I had neither then or now any doubts that any other +shots were fired. In my opinion only three shots were fired. + +The attached photograph from pages 24 and 25 of the _Saturday Evening +Post_ of December 14, 1963, shows the motorcade, as I remember it, an +instant after the first shot. [Photograph is Yarborough Exhibit A.] + +Given and sworn to this 10th day of July, 1964, at Washington, District +of Columbia. + +Signed this 10th day of July 1964. + + (S) Ralph W. Yarborough, + RALPH W. YARBOROUGH. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF KENNETH P. O'DONNELL + +The testimony of Kenneth P. O'Donnell was taken at 12:05 p.m., on May +18, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +Norman Redlich and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you rise, please? Do you solemnly swear that the +testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify +today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the +trip to Texas by President Kennedy, the events during the trip, and +the trip back to Washington, D.C., on November 22. With that general +statement of purpose, I will ask you if you have any objection to +giving a deposition at this time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Kenneth P. O'Donnell. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was special assistant to the President. I was in +charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long had you served in that capacity? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I served as special assistant to the President since the +inauguration, January 20, 1961, with the same duties. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you a party to the original conversations and +decision for President Kennedy to make a trip to Texas in November of +1963? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a +conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson, +and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President +Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there, +looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a +very vital role in President Kennedy's view. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did that first conversation occur, Mr. +O'Donnell? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We had been discussing this for almost 6 or 7 months, +but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the Vice +President's mind or in Governor Connally's mind. Governor Connally +and the Vice President had discussed this. They arrived at a general +agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of +November. I think this decision probably came in October, some time in +October. + +Mr. SPECTER. When had President Kennedy been in Dallas prior to the +trip of November 1963? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The last time the President had been in Dallas was as a +candidate for the Presidency. + +I correct myself. He had been to--visit Speaker Rayburn in the +hospital. I was not on that trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then aside from the trip to see Speaker Rayburn, in the +hospital, had the President been in Dallas at all since the campaign of +1960? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He had not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately when it was that President +Kennedy visited Speaker Rayburn in the hospital in Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know exactly. It would be just before he passed +away. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does October 1961 sound about right to you? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It sounds about right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how many times had President Kennedy been to Texas +between the campaign of 1960 and November 1963, if you know? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he had been to the Speaker's funeral at Bonham. He +had been to Houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at +Rice Stadium. And he had been to El Paso, on a military inspection tour. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. That is all I can recollect at the moment. + +Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's +trip to Texas in November of 1963? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in +Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party +problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he +could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting +President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these +two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think +that is the major reason for the trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by +his interest in making himself as President available to the people +generally in every section of the country, including Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Very definitely. The President's views of his +responsibilities as President of the United States were that he meet +the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them +to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he +sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. And he felt that +leaving Washington for the President of the United States was most +necessary--not only for the people, but for the President himself, that +he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing +the American people. It helped him in his job here, he was able to +come back here with a fresh view of many things. I think he felt very +strongly that the President ought to get out of Washington, and go meet +the people on a regular basis. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He enjoyed it very much. The President--liked people, +and he liked to mingle with people. + +Mr. SPECTER. When were the specific dates of November 21 and November +22 finally set as being the precise times for the trip to Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I am not clear in my recollection of that. I would +think some time early in November. I know Thanksgiving was one of the +problems we had to work with. We decided that would be the best time to +go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once +we agreed we were going to Texas--we would keep a file on all the +speaking engagements, all the invitations the President had received. + +I would go to that file and select some that might look promising. +One of them that I recollect was an invitation from Congressman +Albert Thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation +dinner--not the Congressman himself. And the President was very fond +of Congressman Thomas, he was most helpful to him, and I knew he would +want to go, if this was at all possible. I would think that probably +had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the 21st and +22d. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, if you recall, was the Secret Service notified of +the forthcoming trip to Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think they would be notified around the first +week in November. The general desire is that they have the specific +information at least on the places that he might go 3 weeks prior to +the trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who among the members of the Presidential staff would +be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the +Secret Service? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be my responsibility. The manner in which +we would set it up would be that I would notify the head here, who is +Gerry Behn, and Gerry Behn would ask me when we were sending people +down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time. +And I recollect that Jerry Bruno was one of them. + +The first step would be to confer with the Governor, go over the +general proposals that the Governor would make, and then bring it back +to me. And I would go over it with the Governor and the Vice President +and the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. What planning was undertaken with respect to the +determination of the motorcade route through Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think once we arrived--we chose the four cities +we were going into. And then the advance men and the Secret Service +went out. Then we would work backwards from where we had to be at +what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. And the +original--Dallas, as I recollect, was going to be an evening affair. +The Governor thought the evening affair should be in Austin, and that +we should hit Dallas around noontime. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say the evening affair, what are you referring to +specifically there? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a political dinner which was to be conducted +at Austin that evening, at the end of which the President was going +with the Vice President to the ranch. This was a political fundraising +dinner. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any conversation given at all to +omitting a motorcade through Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. None. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were the considerations behind the decision on +having a motorcade through Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. Particularly +when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give +the President as much exposure to the people of Dallas and vice versa, +the people of Dallas to the President, as possible. + +The speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. And +the President would not want to leave Dallas feeling that the only ones +that were able to see him were a rather select group. So it would be +automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the +advance man and the Secret Service would, within the time allotted to +them--would bring the President into Dallas, through an area which +exposes him to the greatest number of people. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise +route that the motorcade would follow through Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I would think it would be perhaps a +week before the final decision was made. The President would not +involve himself in anything like this. Once we agreed on where he would +go, that was my responsibility to work it out. The normal course of +events--they would say to me, "Do you want a motorcade in Dallas?" I +would say, "Yes; this is how much time you have got." They would work +out a motorcade. The Secret Service would time the route. Once they had +worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "We have +accomplished the purpose you want." The Secret Service would say it +takes so much time, the Governor would say "You have to be here at a +certain time." Once all those are put together, the route is laid out +and accepted. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall how long after the determination of the +motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in +Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. I would think on the transmission to the press +that that would not come from here anyway. That would come from down +there. I would think the Governor's office would probably put that +out. We would under normal circumstances inform through Mr. Salinger's +office, I would inform him of the trip, and then I would give him a +schedule that is given to me by the Secret Service, which would give +the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that +he would arrive at 12 o'clock, address such and such a group at 1 +o'clock. So we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me, +"We are going down 12th Street"--it would not mean anything to me. So I +would think that our advance man and the Governor's advance man would +make a decision on when they were going to announce the route. + +I would think that was almost normal. You might say you wanted to do +it 4 days ahead of time in New York, and the local fellow would really +determine it--"Down here we do it this way." + +Mr. SPECTER. Would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of +normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed +the determination of the motorcade route? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision +was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and +where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the +Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between +our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place +for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly +on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that +came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite +dramatically. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us if there was any consideration at all +given to omitting Dallas as a stop on the trip in Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think so; no. I would think that the President +would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other +cities, that he could not possibly go to Texas and avoid Dallas. It +would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what +really was the long-range purpose of the visit. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the long-range purpose was what, sir? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between +the two political groups in Texas who were at odds, and to assist the +President and prepare for the 1964 campaign as best he could at this +period of time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's reaction towards Dallas +generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about, +say, Ambassador Stevenson's reception there? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. I think +that the President was a very charitable man. He felt that really the +picture of Dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in +many ways--was not the real picture of Dallas; that they were Americans +like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that 50 +shouting people didn't portray the city of Dallas. He had been there +in the 1960 campaign when the Vice President had been spit upon, and +the President received one of the finest receptions he ever got. He +didn't carry the city. They opposed him. But they were not particularly +different than anybody else. And that wouldn't concern him, and I +think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go +there. But I think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating +from Dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to +Texas to a 1 day venture? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect any. I do know one of the original +thoughts was that he go to this dinner in Austin, which was a political +dinner. Whether there was any consideration in some other people's +minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, I know he, number 1, +would not consider it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why not? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He would not consider it because he had a great aversion +to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he +felt that the people that were there were not really representative +of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a +business meeting. And he thought this reflected to some degree on the +office of the Presidency, that on his only visit to Texas, or any other +State in 3 years, that he came to raise money for a political party, +that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. So he he felt +it was a duty of the Presidency to expose himself to the public. So +he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered +there were some political problems in Texas--that would also be in his +judgment a bad political mistake. So I don't think there was ever any +question that he would go some place else. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you accompany the President on all phases of the trip +to Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was with him when he left. The only time that I was +not with him was at Congressman Thomas' dinner. He went to the dinner. +We ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you depart, then, from Washington, on that trip +to Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn. +I think the records show it is 10:45. But the schedule was on time, +certainly arriving there, and, as I recollect, we were on time pretty +much the whole way as the schedule would reflect. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from the helicopter at the White House lawn, where was +your first stop by helicopter? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We stopped and boarded _Air Force 1_ at Andrews Air +Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would the time of 11 a.m., as reflected in the records, be +accurate as your point of departure, then, from Andrews Air Force Base? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I would think it would be. + +Mr. SPECTER. And your first stop in Texas was what? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. San Antonio. + +Mr. SPECTER. Arrival time of 1:30 p.m.--would that be an accurate time +of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in +San Antonio? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think that is right. As I say, we were on +schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at 1:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the activities at San Antonio, Tex? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We motorcaded through San Antonio and went to the +Aerospace Medical Center, where the President made a speech, and from +there to a second airport. We had moved _Air Force 1_ from one airfield +to another, on the other side of the city. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the Aerospace Center, was there a dedication there of +some new facilities? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other public appearance, then, besides the +one you mentioned, in San Antonio? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. To where did you go from San Antonio? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We flew to Houston. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you arrive in Houston? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would have to look at the record. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it late in the afternoon on November 21? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Late in the afternoon, I would think around 4 or 5 +o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were the activities in Houston? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We drove from the airfield into the hotel. As I +recollect, there were very large crowds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a motorcade procession, also? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown +Houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. Getting in +the hotel was somewhat of a chore. + +Mr. SPECTER. What public appearances did the President then make in +Houston? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The President spoke at the appreciation dinner for +Congressman Thomas. The records will show the location. I did not +accompany him. And I went directly from the hotel to the airport, and +met him as he got aboard the plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the Presidential party depart from +Houston? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would have to guess again. I would think around +10:30 or 11 o'clock. The alternative was staying overnight in Houston, +getting in early in the morning--or getting in to Fort Worth late at +night, and allowing the President a little more rest, and we selected +going to Fort Worth that night. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the public appearances made by the President, +then, in Fort Worth, Tex.? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He spoke at 8 o'clock that morning at a breakfast which +was given by the business community, as I remember, came back up to his +room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. It had been raining. +The sun had just come out. He went out and spoke to a group assembled +in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs, +we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and +departed for Carswell. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how did the President travel out of Fort Worth? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He left Fort Worth in an open car, traveled by car to +Carswell. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from Carswell, what was his mode of travel? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. _Air Force 1_ to Love Field, Dallas? + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions on the arrival at Love +Field in Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather. + +Mr. SPECTER. What decision had been made as to whether to have an open +car in Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The decision had been made to have an open--if the +weather was good, he would ride in an open car. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall who made that decision? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would make that decision under normal +circumstances. But it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever +the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall at approximately what time the Presidential +party arrived at Love Field, Tex.--Love Field, Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think it would be around 11, 11:15. We were on +time. We always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always +shook hands with the crowd. So we left--my recollection is that we +departed from Love Field approximately according to the schedule. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were President Kennedy's activities at Love Field? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He had no scheduled activities. It was a matter of +assembling the motorcade. He got off _Air Force 1_, and he went over to +the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and +down. + +Mr. SPECTER. What type of a crowd was it with respect to size? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It was a large crowd. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with +respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined +up, if you recall, please? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I can't go more than--I got into the second car, +and I didn't really look behind me. There was some controversy as to +what Congressman sat in what car. We had a lot of Congressmen with us +and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which +Mr. O'Brien was more involved with than I was, as to where Senator +Yarborough and the Vice President and the Congressman sat. But it was +a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. We always tried to keep +them down as much as possible. But because of the number of Congressmen +and the dignitaries involved. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many cars were there ahead of yours? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think there was a scout car, which was the lead, +the President's vehicle, and I was in the car right behind him, in the +Secret Service followup car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who else besides you was in that car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. David Powers was with me. All the rest were agents. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the +trip from Love Field down to the center of Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I thought it was normal--the crowds, going through +the suburbs, were, I would say, from medium to heavy for that trip. +I noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we +passed by which I would say were highly technical. Therefore, the crowd +reflected a middle to an upper class type. They were not unfriendly nor +terribly enthusiastic. They waved. But were reserved, I thought. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you seated in the car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the left-hand side or the right-hand side? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Left-hand side. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who sat on your immediate right? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Powers. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were there in front of you? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in +the front seat. I would not be clear as to how many there were. I would +think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the +car. Some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of +the motorcade, or the activity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of +you? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was that occupied by Secret Service agents? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about immediately to your rear? Was there a rear +seat? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a rear seat. There were agents in that--again +depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running +board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get +on the running board. But as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did +on the way in, they were seated most of the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the President's automobile +made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect, clearly. I would be surprised if it +did not. But I don't have any clear recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it a usual practice for the President to make a stop +on the motorcade? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. If the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he +saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would +sometimes stop. Usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or +indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd in downtown Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the +heaviest I have seen in any American city. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did they compare with the crowds during the 1960 +campaign in Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think probably heavier. But very close. +They were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. I think, as +I have always noticed, to the President and candidate there is a +different aura. But that would be the only difference I would notice +in the crowd. There was a little bit more respect--still the same +enthusiasm. At the last trip in Dallas he stopped the motorcade every +5 minutes--they mobbed the car. There was none of that. But they were +in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. So there was a very +narrow lane to progress through. But they were still very orderly, but +cheerful. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any specific reaction to the Dallas crowd in +terms of what your expectation might have been about Dallas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I was pleased with it. As a politician, I was +particularly pleased with it. I thought we had accomplished what we had +come to Dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average +person living in that city was no different than any other American, +and that they respected and admired their President. And I felt one +of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the +Congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the +same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see +it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and +that the President of the United States was extremely popular in Dallas. + +And that was the basic reason we went. And as we finished through the +business section of town, that was my pleased impression. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the scene when you left the Main Street of +downtown Dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large +building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I did not. I was looking at the crowd. And I frankly +didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the +windows. And as we made that turn, I had been standing--I remember I +sat down. And as far as I was concerned, that was the end--we were then +going to the luncheon--and I didn't notice any building at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza +there, being known as Dealey Plaza? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was not. I afterward have reflected on it many times. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from +the crowded downtown Dallas area and headed toward the plaza area. + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I sat down. I remember saying to Dave Powers that +it was a fantastic crowd. He agreed. + +We turned. I remember the overpass. And then the shots occurred--which, +at that time, I did not know were shots. My first impression was it was +a firecracker. And then either somebody said, "He has been hit," or I +noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car, +and I noticed him slump over toward Mrs. Kennedy, and I realized then +that they had been shots. But as fast as that realization occurred, +I saw the third shot hit. It was such a perfect shot--I remember I +blessed myself. I was rather convinced that was a fatal blow. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade +turn? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Turned to the left. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how far behind the Presidential vehicle +was the followup car at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. My guess would be 5 to 8 feet, the normal--when there +are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. It +was moving at a steady pace. The crowds were orderly. So he was at a +normal--I would presume they were just about turning to step up the +speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's +vehicle at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would think we probably were going between 15 +and 20, up until that moment, and I think he probably had just begun to +accelerate probably up to about 25, somewhere in that vicinity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had the Secret Service followup car completed its +left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. My recollection is they had, just about. + +I don't recollect a separation of this nature. It was a slight sloping +turn, as I remember, and I thought we were right together. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that when you just indicated with your hands, you were +showing a pattern of the Secret Service car having made the turn and +straightened up immediately behind the Presidential vehicle proceeding +down the street? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. That is my impression. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. On which side of the car was President Kennedy seated? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He was on the right side. + +Mr. SPECTER. The extreme right? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The extreme right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of +the shooting, if you recall? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He was waving. We had just left the mass of crowds. But +as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there, +and I believe he waved to them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a right-handed wave? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was Governor Connally seated with respect to the +President? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He was directly in front of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised +or was it in its extreme low position at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to +whether or not the seat would be raised? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential +automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Three. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which +elapsed from the first shot to the last shot? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one +right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third +one. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, +if you had one? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came +from the right rear. That would be my best judgment. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around +in any specific direction? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think, +watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot +hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from +the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption +immediately. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred +to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again, +looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you +would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which +leads you to that conclusion? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been +withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. +He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping +movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or +second, I would not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think +it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it +is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement +coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the +car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The +President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind +the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the +President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he +was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President +slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see +him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The +motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has +been hit, too." + +Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the +left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The +President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was +over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the President's left when the Governor---- + +Mr. O'DONNELL. If the President was all the way to the right, the +Governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. If they were +both sitting, they were not. But they did confer back and forth. So the +Governor was visible upon occasion. But when he turned around, it was +really the first time I had been able to see him clearly. + +Mr. SPECTER. At a time, though, when the President was on the extreme +right-hand side, waving, would the Governor then have been visible on +the President's left or on his right? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He would be on his left. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise +front of the President, to the right, to the left, or what? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What reaction did you observe, if any, as to Mrs. Kennedy +during the shots? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he slumped on her. She appeared to be immediately +aware that something had happened. She turned toward him. And then the +third shot hit. Obviously, she then knew what happened. She turned, +looking at the backup car. Meanwhile Agent Hill had gotten off the car +and started running up. She was clambering toward the back, and reached +his hand, and he was on the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reactions in the President's car other +than those which you have now testified about? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what point did the motorcade accelerate? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It accelerated, I would think, right about at the time +that Agent Hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a +few seconds after the last shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to +the hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Very rapidly. I would guess between 60 and 70 miles an +hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the +hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would guess 5 to 10 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's car was the followup car in +which you were riding at the time the President's car arrived at the +hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Right behind it, 5 or 6 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We got out of the car. David Powers got out of the car, +went over to the President, and was not visible to me, and was crying, +he laid on him. And then they came and took the President--that was +the first time I really realized that Governor Connally had been badly +hurt, as they also carried Governor Connally out. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy doing at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into +the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there a coat over President Kennedy at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. When they took him out, I was standing maybe 3 or 4 feet +behind him. There was a wall of people between myself. I didn't see +him, nor did I look. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the President out of the car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the Governor out of the car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. By what means were they taken away from the vicinity of +the car? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I think they had stretchers. As I say, I was far enough +back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people +between my vision and what they were doing, I did not see. I could not +be accurate on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Mr. O'Donnell? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I went into the hospital and went right to Mrs. Kennedy. +She was seated right outside the room where they had placed the +President. I would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing +whether there was any hope or not. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities in the period of time +immediately following that moment? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I stayed with her for a few minutes, and then +no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the +President's condition. As I said, I had seen the shots so clearly, I +had a pretty clear view. The first thing I had done--I asked them to +get a priest, which they did immediately. I went into the room. There +were four or five doctors there. Dr. Burkley I think was there. And I +said, "I think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is +there any hope at all?" I was unable to get a conclusive answer. But I +think I got the answer I needed. + +I don't know how Mrs. Kennedy was finally told. I may have told her +about at that moment. Between the time and the time I knew definitely, +I went to see the Vice President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson was with him and an agent who at the time I +did not know. I believe it is Youngblood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was Vice President Johnson? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He was in a room across the hall. You had to go directly +across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to +the public, and into another room. And I recollect I turned to my +right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. He was +standing on the right, Mrs. Johnson, I believe, was sitting, the agent +was standing at the door. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations, if any, did you have with +then-Vice President Johnson? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I told him it looked very, very serious, and in my +opinion that it was probably fatal. I hadn't been able to get a totally +definite answer, but that I would let him know as soon as it was +definite--but it looked pretty black. + +I then left him. I don't recollect that he even commented. I left him +and went back to Mrs. Kennedy, and within a very few minutes they +confirmed the fact that the President was dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. As soon as I was assured that he was dead, and it was +definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the +President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there +as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first +words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might +be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, +and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might +be to move the Presidential aircraft from Love Field to Carswell, where +no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be +military security. + +We discussed that. It was my opinion that his best movement was to move +directly to Love Field. In fact, the routes would not be available +anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the +hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. +And that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, +where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion about his taking the presidential +plane, AF-1, as opposed to AF-2? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. There was not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson look to you in any way for a +recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in +charge of the presidential party? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It was my impression that he did, that he, with the +President gone--that he felt I was--had to assume a position of +responsibility, both with regard to Mrs. Kennedy and as to himself. He +asked me, as I recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure +and used the words, "I am in your hands now," at some point in the +conversation. + +But I did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the +proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all the conversation you had at that +time with then-Vice President Johnson? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, then? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Next after I left the Vice President, I went back to +Mrs. Kennedy. On the way through the lobby I noted the newspapermen +were clamoring for information. I met Kilduff. He said, "Should we +announce it?" And I said I think that is a decision that can only be +made by the President "You better ask him." So that was the last I saw +of Kilduff. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who is Kilduff? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. He is the assistant press secretary. + +Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Kilduff? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Malcolm Kilduff. + +I then went back to Mrs. Kennedy, who was in a very understandably +distraught condition. It was my opinion--I tried to in some way imply +that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that +room. She was covered with blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which room was she in then? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. She was in the same room. She had not moved. She was +sitting near the door. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the room where the President was treated by the +Dallas doctors? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; there is a little corridor. There were swinging +doors. He was inside the swing door. She was not in the presence of the +body. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was her response to you? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Her response to me was she would not leave her husband's +body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The doctor had +continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. And she +had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that +she was going to stay with her husband. + +I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what +anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to +leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we +move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived +at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner. + +So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one +of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get +a casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors +prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport +and go to Washington. + +This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It seems to me it wasn't +more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. I remember +just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there was a little +room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy under some +subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, +because I thought that might be the final blow. And we did, and--but +she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No, I want to watch +it all." And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt +at being compassionate. + +And then they took it in, and put the body in the casket. + +We were then all prepared to go. The agents told me the ambulance was +ready, and they were prepared to move. + +We--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived +who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the +hospital until the necessary papers had been signed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who he was? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect who he was. I think he was--maybe from +the coroner's office. My assumption is he would be. + +But he took this position. We asked--I don't recollect who transmitted +the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us +some idea how long it took to accomplish this. And they went out into +this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded +to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission. + +We waited about 10 or 15 minutes, and Dr. Burkley and General McHugh +were in the room, and Mr. O'Brien at some time. I went out again and +asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to +answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a +week or an hour. + +So I was getting more concerned about Mrs. Kennedy's state all the +time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning. + +Then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a +Judge Brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. It had been my +assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to +depart. Dr. Burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. And +the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. If my recollection +is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just +a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried +out, one of which I interpreted as an autopsy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was it, Mr. O'Donnell, if you recall, who said this +was just another homicide case? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. My feeling is it was Brown, but I really would not +be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the +signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this +as a homicide case, I would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who +might have said it. + +My recollection is it was indicated to us that the President is dead, +the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, +no matter who it is, at this moment. In my own mind, when they said +autopsy, I realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even +days, which was an impossible situation for Mrs. Kennedy. + +I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could +have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, +and that we would bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that +they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no +separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their +autopsy. + +They refused to consider this. + +I in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just +depart. So I went back in the room. I told Mr. O'Brien, and whoever +else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. I notified +the Secret Service and General McHugh, and told them to get ready to +depart. We went in and took the body out. Mrs. Kennedy stood right +behind it, I think totally unaware of the problems that were then +existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were +attempting to depart. + +We pushed the casket out through the hall. This first gentleman that +had come in, who, I presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted +very loudly, "You can't do that, you can't leave here now." Nobody paid +any attention to him. We pushed out through another set of swinging +doors. I remember a Catholic priest was between this and the doorway, +and was praying. It was most disconcerting because we were concerned at +all times that some moment they would say stop, and I hated to think +what might happen to Mrs. Kennedy if she had to go back and go through +this all over again. So we brushed them all aside and came out the same +way we had come in, through the same doors. + +There was an ambulance there. Andy Berger was seated in the driver's +seat. Several agents were there. The body was put into the ambulance, +Mrs. Kennedy got in with it. We climbed into a car alongside of it, and +we took off for the airport. I told the agents if they would signal +ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we +came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else +in. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the gate at the airfield? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall approximately what time you left the +hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I haven't the vaguest idea. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived +at the hospital that you left the hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. But I wouldn't +have any idea. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how long did the trip take you from the hospital +back to the airport? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I am guessing totally at time. I would think it seemed +about 15 minutes. It wasn't a long period of time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What occurred then? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The drive was uneventful. We went through the gate. We +arrived at the Air Force--I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be +honest, until I saw the members of the crew. And they unloaded the +casket. I remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, +because of the narrowness of the ramp. It was very difficult for the +Secret Service. It seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was +frightening. + +We got on the plane. And the seats had been taken out on the left side, +so they could lay the casket down. The casket was placed down. I told +General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not President Johnson had been +sworn in at that time? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. At that time I didn't know President Johnson was on the +plane. I did not know whether he had been. Subsequently I realized he +had not been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or +consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the Presidential plane +until Mrs. Kennedy and President Kennedy's body arrived on that plane +before departing for Washington? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. There has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. +Once the President--the Vice President left, I left him, I had not seen +him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified +that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on +the airplane. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, after arriving on the airplane? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. As I say, I told General McHugh to have the plane take +off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at +some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or +that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept +us--the difficulty of that to Mrs. Kennedy was incalculable. I was in +a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to +Washington. As I say, I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take +off. + +There was a delay of 2 or 3 minutes, and nothing happened. So I headed +up for the cockpit myself, and I ran into McHugh in the meantime who +said that President Johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the +pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. That was the first I +knew he was aboard. + +I would like to correct that. I must have known he was aboard, because +I am sure he must have greeted Mrs. Kennedy as she came aboard. And he +and Mrs. Johnson. But I don't have a clear recollection of that in my +own mind. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when President Johnson was sworn in? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived back on AF-1, what did you do between +that time and the time the plane was airborne? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson took Mrs. Kennedy into the President's room +on _Air Force 1_. I remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but +she persuaded her to. And---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was reluctant to go in? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. And I went up, and the President and I +carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be +hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for +the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion +between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney +General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if +not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the +aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I +realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on +it. I just listened to him. We sat there. + +I went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody +on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, +under any circumstances. About 10 or 15 minutes later the judge arrived +and the swearing in occurred. + +Mr. SPECTER. How soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if +you recall? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. It was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the +plane taxied out and took off. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the return flight to Washington, where did you sit? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I sat with Mrs. Kennedy almost all the way. We came +back--Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Brien, and I stayed in the back compartment. +And then Mrs. Kennedy and I--I sat down with her, we sat that way all +the way back. The President called me up on one or two occasions and +asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but I felt I +had to stay with Mrs. Kennedy. So I sat with her the whole trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We reminisced. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did she have anything to eat on the trip back? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I think we both had a drink. I tried to get her to +take a good strong drink. I had not much luck. + +Mr. SPECTER. She drank part but not all? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. As I recollect, she just wanted to talk. She talked all +the way. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then after your arrival in Washington, +D.C.? Or did you come back to Andrews Air Force Base? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General +had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to +Bethesda. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The +question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an +autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy +man, she picked Bethesda. + +Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. She did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you +know? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know who made the decision. I just think we all +agreed--we arrived at Bethesda. The Attorney General was there. I think +it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda +Naval Hospital? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. By car. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time did you arrive at Andrews, if you recall? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't remember. It was dark. That is all I do recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how long was the car trip from Andrews to Bethesda? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 45 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after your arrival at Bethesda? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. When we arrived at Bethesda, we went immediately to some +room, reception room, where the family was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay there? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We stayed there, I would think, until 3 or 4 in the +morning. We wanted to stay there until Mrs. Kennedy got back to the +house. + +We drove back to the White House with her. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you leave her at the White House? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 4 or 5 in the morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. After that, did you go home? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who all was present with the family at Bethesda? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. There was Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Powers--I don't recollect +anybody else outside the family. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who from the family was there? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. As I remember, Jean Kennedy, the Attorney General and +his wife, I think Pat and Eunice. There were some other people. Really +there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and +there was one out in the reception. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was on the balance of the itinerary in Texas after +the planned luncheon at the Trade Mart at Dallas on November 22? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. We were leaving Dallas and going to Austin, and Governor +Connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner +in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the President was going +to depart from there to the Vice President's ranch, and stay with them +through Saturday, and then come back to Washington. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the estimated time of arrival at the LBJ Ranch +about 10 p.m., on the evening of November 22? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be about right. + +Mr. SPECTER. With the plan then being to depart for Washington on the +23d, Saturday? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's attitude, in a general way, about +Presidential protection--that is, President Kennedy's attitude about +Presidential protection, Mr. O'Donnell? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, his general attitude was that the Secret +Service--that there was no protection available to a President of +a democracy such as the United States from a demented person who +was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a +President of the United States, who in a sense wears two hats--he is +the leader of a political party as well as our Chief Executive--and by +the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our +cities, and must expose himself to the American people--that the Secret +Service would not be, other than the protection that they provide +by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a +political trip--would not be able to guarantee 100 percent protection, +considering one has to mingle with crowds of 50,000 or 100,000 people, +and mingle with them at handshaking distance. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a +motorcade, for example, with the President? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Not specifically in a motorcade. I don't think the +President's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general +subject. We used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this +would come up. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's view expressed during those +conversations? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. His view was that a demented person who was willing to +sacrifice his own life could take the President's life. And that if +it were to happen, I think his general view was it would happen in a +crowded situation. I don't think it entered his mind that it might +happen in the fashion as of a motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was his reaction to that risk? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the +office of the Presidency of the United States inherited. It didn't +disturb him at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was the last conversation that you had with him on +that general topic? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The last conversation I had with him on that general +topic was the morning of the assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did the conversation occur? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. The conversation took place in his room, with Mrs. +Kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the Hotel Texas +to depart for Carswell Air Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. That was in Fort Worth? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. That was in Fort Worth. + +Mr. SPECTER. And tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what +he said at that time, please. + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, as near as I can recollect he was commenting to +his wife on the function of the Secret Service, and his interpretation +of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function +was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes +an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the +President of the United States could be injured. But he said that if +anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it +was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building +some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could +do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy's reaction to that philosophy? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I think--I think she had not quite thought of this at +all. She certainly had not thought of it in this way. But I think the +general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in +this democracy, this is inherent. + +Mr. SPECTER. What had her reaction been to the trip to Texas up to that +point? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. She had enjoyed it. She had not been a girl who had +loved campaigning. And I thought at the moment, at that very minute, +that for the first time--the President and I were discussing a +forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would +come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like +to go from now on. + +The President was delighted. We were all delighted. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had she been on any political trip before this trip to +Texas? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No; she had not been on a political trip with us for +quite awhile. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was the trip immediately prior to the one to Texas +that she was last on, if you recall? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I don't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the 1960 campaign? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. She was pregnant, as I recollect, during the 1960 +campaign. She had been pregnant just prior to this. So that--and most +of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult +for Mrs. Kennedy to go on. But she had never evidenced to me quite as +much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she +was after this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had she ever been to Texas prior to November 21, 1963? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. After the assassination, has she ever made any comment to +you about that conversation which you had in the Hotel Texas in Fort +Worth on the morning of November 22? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I have never dared bring that conversation up to Mrs. +Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from +the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, +concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the President? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I have no comment. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say you have no knowledge? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I have no knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be +helpful to the President's Commission in any way in its job of +investigating all factors relating to the assassination of President +Kennedy? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell. + +Did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the +city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can +make this transcript available to you to read and to sign. + +Would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, +and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court +reporter here? + +Mr. O'DONNELL. I would like to read it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We will make it available to you for reading and +signature, sir. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE F. O'BRIEN + +The testimony of Lawrence F. O'Brien was taken at 11 a.m., on May 26, +1964, at the White House Office, Washington, DC., by Mr. Francis W. H. +Adams, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. ADAMS. Raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this +deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do. + +Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from +you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. + +I would like to start way back, if I may, at the point of the +conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. How far back was that +before November 22? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is the contemplation of the trip to Texas +was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip. + +However, I should quickly add that many discussions took place about +potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to +some degree in the political context. The President, No. 1, enjoyed +getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we +had anticipated the President would travel rather extensively when the +opportunity presented itself. But the difficulty in pinning anything +like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of +scheduling any travel by the President, because of the duties of the +office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem. + +Mr. ADAMS. But you, yourself, were concerned and involved in +discussions looking towards this? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; Mr. O'Donnell was responsible for the handling of the +specifics of trips. He would engage in discussions with the President +and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. In his role +as Appointments Secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with +the President invitations of all kinds that came across his desk. + +The Vice President had expressed an interest for some time in a +possible trip to Texas. + +Mr. ADAMS. Had he expressed that interest to you? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically. It became generally +understood in our discussions that he was interested, the President +was interested, Mr. O'Donnell was charged with the responsibility of +maintaining a day to day relationship in this area. + +Mr. ADAMS. At that time, what was your official title? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Special Assistant to the President for Congressional +Relations. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. A trip of this nature, as many trips within the United +States, would involve the inclusion of Members of Congress, appropriate +members of the delegation, and what-have-you. So that would be pretty +much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature. + +Mr. ADAMS. To put it another way, you did not yourself have the +responsibility for the specific planning? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Not at all. + +Mr. ADAMS. And were you involved in making--in the discussions which +led to the final decision about this Texas trip? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. There were some discussions that involved me as to the +specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have +the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the +stops, and matters of that nature. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you happen to know how it came to pass that Mrs. Kennedy +went along on that trip? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. I think Mr. O'Donnell would be the proper +person to direct that to. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you have anything to do with the security or protection +arrangements for the President? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No. + +Mr. ADAMS. Neither on that trip nor at any time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No. + +Mr. ADAMS. This didn't come within your duties at all? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, is it fair to say that the substantial purpose of this +trip was political? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say--in my belief it was not the substantial +purpose. An invitation that had been extended by the Congressman +Albert Thomas' dinner committee, and I assume arrangements that were +appropriate for that time for a dinner in Austin contributed to the +decision on that particular time for this trip. This would be typical +of the situation, as I recall it, where you knew there would be an +occasion when the President would visit Texas. + +He was interested in visiting Texas, as he was other sections of the +country. And this sort of fell into line. It presented to some degree +an opportunity to make the trip at that time. + +He was particularly fond of Congressman Thomas. And he had had a +close-working relationship with him in the Congress. + +I, of course, became very well acquainted with Congressman Thomas, +because of my role representing the White House with the Congress. And +I am sure that was a contributing factor. He was most interested in +attending this dinner to honor him. + +Mr. ADAMS. I suppose it would be fair to say that almost any activity +of the President is in some measure political. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say that is perhaps true. + +But he had been interested, also, in having an opportunity to visit the +Space Center particularly. And he had watched the development of the +space activity in Texas with great interest. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, going back to the time that you left Washington on that +trip, did you leave with the President? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did. + +Mr. ADAMS. From the White House? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did. + +Mr. ADAMS. By helicopter? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. And what was the time--do you recall? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It was approximately forenoon, about 10:45, from the White +House lawn, in the President's helicopter. + +Mr. ADAMS. And where did you go in the helicopter? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. We went to Andrews Field. + +Mr. ADAMS. And did you go onboard _Air Force 1_? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. ADAMS. And you went from there to Austin? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. We went from there to San Antonio. + +Mr. ADAMS. I am sorry. I misspoke myself. San Antonio? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Arriving in San Antonio about when? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I think you would have to refer to the record on that. + +Mr. ADAMS. Some time early afternoon? Some time in the afternoon of +that day? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I remember it was, weatherwise, an uneventful trip. +The weather was fine. There is no reason to suggest we didn't arrive at +pretty much the established time. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then, just briefly, what happened in San Antonio? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, there was a motorcade in San Antonio to the +Aerospace Center for a ceremony. And, as I recall, the ceremony was +relatively brief. The President spoke briefly. And then he inspected +the installation. + +The overall elapsed time I don't recall--perhaps an hour or an hour and +a half. + +And then we proceeded back to the airport for the trip to Fort Worth. + +Mr. ADAMS. What happened in Fort Worth? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. In Fort Worth, as I recall, at the airport there was--from +the airport into the hotel in Fort Worth, it was rather a lengthy trip. +It also involved crowds at various stops. + +The hour--I am sorry I cannot recall the hour of arrival--but it was, +as we say, an offbeat hour. It was rather surprising to have the +interest shown crowdwise as we went in. It delayed the motorcade into +the hotel and outside of the hotel there was a large crowd of people. + +Mr. ADAMS. What was the reaction of that crowd? Was that a friendly +group? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would describe it as friendly; yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened next, after you arrived at the hotel? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and his party checked into the hotel for the +night. I do not recall any other official activity. + +Mr. ADAMS. And what happened next? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, the following morning the President arose early to +attend a breakfast. As I recall, it was a civic breakfast, sponsored by +the local civic group or groups. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did Mrs. Kennedy attend that, also, as you recall? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. She arrived at the breakfast, as I recall, following the +President. The President spoke at the breakfast, and received gifts, +and Mrs. Kennedy received a gift. I recall one of the gifts to the +President was a Stetson. I recall that he did not try it on, but he +appreciated receiving it. + +Following the breakfast, he then spoke to a large crowd in front of +the hotel, in the parking area opposite the hotel. There had been +indications of bad weather. There was some rain, and then the rain +became intermittent. + +Upon completing his speech in the parking area, he returned upstairs to +await the normal departure time. + +When that time arrived, I went downstairs ahead of the President and +Mrs. Kennedy, and the Secret Service were determining whether or not +they would have the top up or down on the car, because there was still +an occasional drop of rain. However, a few minutes elapsed, and it +appeared the weather would stay good for the drive to the airport. So +he left, to the best of my recollection--I feel sure of this--in an +open car to the airport from the hotel. + +Mr. ADAMS. While we are on that subject, just to digress for a moment, +what was his attitude toward riding in open cars? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It was certainly his preference. He had always expressed +a view that in our democracy a President should, whenever possible, be +exposed to the people. And I think, also, he felt the people should be +exposed to him. He always wanted to have the closest possible contact +with people. And in that context his preference certainly at all times +was an open car. + +Mr. ADAMS. And these preferences were expressed to you personally? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Not in the context of this particular situation. + +Mr. ADAMS. No; I mean through the years. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. But certainly we were totally aware of his desires in that +area. And this had, of course, been his position not only in the United +States but in trips outside the country. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did he have--did he ever happen to express any particular +view to you about motorcades, in terms of security? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I cannot recall any discussion I had with him in that +regard. + +Mr. ADAMS. Generally speaking, what was his position as expressed to +you about security? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation in that area. +There may have been. But certainly it was not of sufficient substance +to be of any importance. + +Mr. ADAMS. More specifically, did you ever discuss with him the +possibility of assassination? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you ever discuss it with Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Well, I took you off the track there. We will come back to +Fort Worth, now, if we may. + +When we left we were discussing his concluding his talk and going out +to the airport in Fort Worth. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; there were, as I recall it, some bands en route. +There was a great deal of excitement, enthusiasm. The weather had +cleared. And it was a thoroughly pleasant trip out to the airport. The +President obviously enjoyed it. + +When we arrived at _Air Force 1_, he commented that that certainly had +been a very interesting and pleasant morning. + +Mr. ADAMS. And you went with him on _Air Force 1_? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. + +Mr. ADAMS. To Dallas--arriving late in the morning? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would estimate our arrival time at Dallas perhaps around +11:45. I know that we anticipated the motorcade through the streets of +Dallas at the noon hour. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you yourself have anything to do with the planning of +that motorcade? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. With the exception of insuring the inclusion in the +motorcade of the Members of Congress and Senator Yarborough, that they +be properly handled so that they would be included in open cars in the +motorcade. + +Mr. ADAMS. And it was part of your responsibility to see that--what +cars they got into and all those arrangements? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say specifically that. They would have their +car assignments. But for the most part, it was, if anything went wrong +in the arrangements at some point, I would then be able to have a staff +man correct it. So I would keep a close eye on the congressional people +traveling with the President on a trip of that nature to be sure that +they were well taken care of. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you know when the information about the precise route was +released to the press? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was there any thought--I withdraw that one, and ask you +this: Do you know how it came about that Dallas was chosen as one of +the cities to visit? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically, except that the size of the +city, the concentration of population, would make it an obvious stop in +Texas, if you were going to be in the State for 2 or 2-1/2 days. It is +rather an obvious decision, that the Dallas area would be one of the +stops. + +Mr. ADAMS. As far as you know, there was never any consideration given +to omitting Dallas? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not recall any. + +Mr. ADAMS. Well, we are back now at Love Field. Would you tell us what +happened there, as far as you observed it? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The President moved over to the fence, where a large +crowd had gathered and shook the hands of several in the crowd, as +the motorcade was awaiting his departure. All those in the motorcade +proceeded to get into their cars. There was the usual amount of minor +confusion--people hustling around to locate their car number, and I +stood watching the President engaged in this activity, until he had +gotten into his car, and a quick observation indicated to me that all +those traveling with us had gotten into their cars. + +I came very close, however, to being left at Love Field, because I +delayed a little longer than I normally would, observing the scene, +and, consequently, I had to make a little dash, myself, to hop into a +car, to insure that I would travel into town. + +Mr. ADAMS. When the President was greeting people along the fence +there, was he accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my recollection. + +Mr. ADAMS. And do you recall at that time what the Vice President and +Mrs. Johnson were doing? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. They were engaged in the same activity, as I recall it. + +Mr. ADAMS. I think you said this was a large crowd. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; it appeared to be a large crowd. The difficulty in +judging a crowd from the ground at an airport is obvious. But as we +came down the steps of the plane, looking out over the crowd, I had the +impression that it was a large crowd for an airport stop, considering +the fact the President was about to travel through the heart of the +city. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was it a friendly crowd? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It appeared to be friendly. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, getting to the motorcade, what was its organization, as +you recall it, in terms of what cars at what places? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall it, following the usual police grouping in +the front and sides, the President's car, Secret Service car, the +Vice President's car, additional Secret Service car, wire service +cars--I would think there probably were two--the VIP cars followed, +and then following those cars, which was rather a long line of them, +as I recall, were, I believe, one or two buses containing the press, +traveling press. + +Mr. ADAMS. When you refer to the VIP cars, those would include the +Congressmen and the other gentlemen you referred to before? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. Senator Yarborough was in the car with +the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson. The members of the congressional +delegation traveling with us at that point were then in open cars--I +would think there were perhaps four open cars to accommodate them. + +Mr. ADAMS. Which one were you in? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I was in one of those open cars--specifically, I don't +remember the order of the car, but I remember the passengers I joined. +And as I pointed out, this was rather a quick hop into the car that I +made at that point. Congressman Mahon was in the front seat with the +driver. Congressman Rogers of Texas, now Judge Homer Thornberry of +Texas, and me in the back seat. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you know who the driver was? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, would you say that between you and the Vice President's +followup car, there was more than one open car? As I get it--to put it +another way to perhaps refresh your recollection--there was the Vice +President's car, then there was a followup car behind that, and then +came, as you have recalled, the open cars, in which you were seated in +one of them. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, were you in the one directly behind the Vice +President's followup car, or farther back? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not believe I was in the first VIP car, because, +as I stated when I looked around and the motorcade started to move +slightly, I moved toward a car handy to me. I would think that I was in +the second or conceivably third open car, because, at that time, we had +approximately 10 or 12 members of the Texas congressional delegation, +and obviously we, therefore, had perhaps four open cars. I don't recall +that I was in the first one--it was the second or third. I was not in +the last one, either. + +Mr. ADAMS. Were you assigned to a particular car, or would you just +have taken any that would happen to be available? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I am sure I was assigned to a particular car. As a rule, I +would be assigned to the first VIP car--VIP meaning as a rule, again, +a congressional delegation. And in this instance, I don't recall the +actual car assignment. And it was not unusual for me to not adhere +strictly to the assignment. + +Mr. ADAMS. And as the motorcade left Love Field--let me withdraw that +and put it this way: You were seated in the back? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right back. + +Mr. ADAMS. On the right-hand side? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. + +Mr. ADAMS. From where you were seated in that car, as you proceeded +toward the city, could you see the President in his car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Only occasionally. There were occasions when you could +not see him. Other times, depending on the turns in the road, and +what-have-you, you would get a view of him. And there were times when +he was upright in the car, and you could spot him. + +But, generally speaking, I would say that I was concentrating on crowd +attitude and size for the most part, going in toward the city. + +Mr. ADAMS. From what you could see of the President's car, where was he +seated? + +On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. As I looked toward the car, he was seated on the right, +with Governor Connally seated directly in front of him. + +Mr. ADAMS. That is right. And Mrs. Connally---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Connally on the jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. ADAMS. As the motorcade proceeded, could you at all times see the +Vice President's car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; similarly, the photographers and others would often +times block the view. The view of the President's car and the Vice +President's car from where I was seated during the motorcade into +and through the downtown Dallas was not a clear view. There was an +obstructed view for the most part. + +Mr. ADAMS. As you recall it, what were the seating arrangements in the +Vice President's car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I know that Senator Yarborough, Mrs. Johnson, and the Vice +President were seated in the rear of the car, and my recollection is +that again the Vice President was on the right, Mrs. Johnson in the +middle, Senator Yarborough on the left. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, as you went on in town, tell me about the crowds, if +you would. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The crowds were large, unusually large for an extremely +long--mileagewise--long trip into the city. I was impressed with the +size of the crowd. The comment in our car, however, was that the crowd +was rather reserved. As a matter of fact, Congressman Rogers, who, as I +told you, was on the left rear, commented and called out from time to +time in a jocular vein, "Hello", "Howdy", and suggested to them that +they ought to smile and look perky, which we felt they were not doing +during the course of the trip from the airport to the outskirts of the +business area. + +Mr. ADAMS. Up to that point, I suppose it was chiefly residential areas +that you passed through? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed to be residential, and a great deal of small +industry. The crowd looked to me to be middle to upper class business +type to a great extent. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you know the city of Dallas yourself? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Had you been there before? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I had not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then as you got into the city, what was the nature of the +crowds? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. There was a tremendous change in crowd attitude, which, +again, we commented on in the car. It seemed as though it occurred +suddenly, but yet nevertheless in retrospect it did grow as you +approached the business center. Then you found yourself going down a +road, on both sides high buildings, confetti, the crowds out in the +street, allowing just a narrow lane for the motorcade. And I would have +to describe that crowd as enthusiastic. In fact, perhaps I should say +wildly enthusiastic. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any special incidents of any kind on the way +into town? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. On rare occasion you saw a Goldwater sign, or some sign of +that nature, conservative sign, I guess, but not many. It was not an +unusual situation, as I recall. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember the motorcade stopping at anytime? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall the motorcade stopping, and it seems to me it +was for the purpose of the President greeting some school children. +However, I am not clear in my mind. I do recall a slowdown or an actual +stopping on at least one occasion, and perhaps more than one occasion, +between the airport and downtown Dallas. And I should add that those in +the car in which I rode, to a man, commented on the great enthusiasm of +the crowds in downtown area. I think they were making reference to it +particularly because there was somehow or other--we all concluded this +was a comparison that could be made with the crowds we had just gone by. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you recall the motorcade passing down Main Street in +Dallas? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. + +Mr. ADAMS. And then do you recall it turning off Main Street? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. + +Mr. ADAMS. And then around onto Elm Street? You might not remember the +names. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall the name of the street. But I recall +distinctly a right turn. + +Mr. ADAMS. And then another swerving turn? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. + +Mr. ADAMS. At that point, were there a lot of buildings or only a few? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed that when we made the turn off the Main Street, +that the crowds petered out. It was a very normal termination of a +parade route. And we just felt that while there were people on the +streets, it was not the massive crowd that we had just passed over +several blocks. And I believe that my reaction was this is about the +end of the parade route, and we were about to just sort of settle back. +There were people still on the street, but you could see that this +route was--this parade route was about to terminate. + +Mr. ADAMS. And as you came around those turns, did you hear any shots +fired? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. ADAMS. Would you tell me as best you can whether at that time you +could see the President's car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I could not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was that because your car had not turned the corner yet? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall, our car was about to make that turn, and it +would seem to me, therefore, the President's car was in the process of +making the left turn. I would think that approximately the time he was +swinging on this curving left, we were swinging out of Main Street +right. We heard the shots very clearly. + +Mr. ADAMS. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Three. + +Mr. ADAMS. Can you estimate for me the time interval between the first +and the last shot? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe I can estimate the timing, but I can tell +you about an exchange that took place in the car, from the first shot +through the third shot. + +Mr. ADAMS. Please do. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The first shot was fired. I just didn't conclude it was +rifle fire. I was completely unsure. And I must have almost immediately +said to the driver--I directed the question to him, for some unknown +reason--"What was that?" The driver replied, "I do not know. They must +be giving him a 21-gun salute." By the time the driver had concluded +that sentence, we did not hear explosion No. 4. And it was apparent to +us that No. 1 was not a 21-gun salute. I believe everyone in the car +concluded it wasn't, in any event, because it just was not that kind of +a sound. And we just had no idea of what had occurred at that moment. + +Mr. ADAMS. Could you tell me your best recollection as to where the +sounds appeared to come from? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I didn't have any idea specifically on the location of the +sounds, and I do not recall that anyone in the car did. + +Mr. ADAMS. Is it your recollection that these sounds were evenly spaced? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my impression. As I say, I apparently immediately +engaged the driver in conversation after the first shot which forces +me to conclude that there had to be a time between the first and +second and third shots--because I simply--describing the exchange of +my question and his answer, and his answer, I must say, probably was +completed after the third shot. But he had started his answer to the +question at about or just before the third shot. + +Mr. ADAMS. Well, one way of getting at the time interval of all +three shots, I suppose, would be your recollection that it all was +encompassed in the time it took you to ask the question and the driver +to answer. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. At least in the time that it took me to ask the question +and the driver to initiate the answer, but perhaps not complete it. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then would it be fair to say it was a very small number of +seconds? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It certainly would be. And I think the driver completed +his answer--for 1 or 2 seconds all of us in the car were awaiting the +fourth explosion, if I can term it that, which did not occur, and there +was dead silence in the car. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then do you remember anything that anyone said immediately +following the dead silence? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not recall. I recall that just prior to this, +which indicates to me that perhaps we had turned that corner before +the shots, Judge Thornberry pointed to a building and said that that +was where his offices had been located at one time, either in military +service or in government service, and pointing over in the direction of +the building. We were turning the corner--and that took place before +the shots. + +Mr. ADAMS. You don't happen to know the name of that building? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. But he mentioned it in the term that he +had been stationed in that building. Now, it could have been either a +military activity or in government agency activity. + +Mr. ADAMS. How did the knowledge come to you that the President had +been shot? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. We noted, as the cars continued to move after the third +shot, and there was a great deal of movement on both sides in front of +us, scurrying in various directions. + +Mr. ADAMS. Scurrying by whom? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. People on the street--the crowds had thinned out. There +were people along the road. + +Mr. ADAMS. We didn't specifically cover this, but was there a +motorcycle escort? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. For the motorcade? + +Mr. ADAMS. Yes; around the President's car. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did that motorcycle escort extend as far back as your car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; it did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. I interrupted you there. You were telling me how this +knowledge came to you, that something serious had happened. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade +started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from +great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the +specific nature of the occurrence. And we just were, I think you would +have to describe, very confused. I remember particularly a Negro man +with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn. + +Mr. ADAMS. On which side of the car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right. And that was typical of all kinds of +movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just +didn't know. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any radio communication in your car with the +front cars? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; we did not. At that point, a photographer--we started +to move a little more rapidly. Our driver intended to follow the +motorcade and move out. The motorcade moved out with great speed in +front of us. And a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was +a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his +fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. We did not +get anything coherent from him. I do not think we really attempted to, +because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and +keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed. + +The driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or +three minutes. He had no idea where the motorcade was headed. And they, +therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the +trade mart, which was to be the location of the President's stop and +speech following the parade route. + +We pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called +out, He has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. And at that +point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the +nearest hospital. And he started to move out with great speed toward +this hospital. And as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that +was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle +police, and what-have-you. As we arrived at the hospital, there was a +great deal of commotion at the front. + +Mr. ADAMS. I think you misspoke yourself. You said you pulled up in +front of the motorcade. I think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up +in front of the trade mart. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Trade mart--I am sorry. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the +President or Governor Connally at the moment that they were shot? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. How long would you think it took you to go from the point +where you heard the shots to the hospital? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say overall it could approach 15 minutes. + +Mr. ADAMS. And what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say 60 to 70 miles an hour. + +Mr. ADAMS. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. When I arrived at the hospital, two of the Congressmen +that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead +of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled +up, and asked me to follow them immediately. There was a large crowd--I +will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to +the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police. + +Congressman Thomas and Congressman Brooks went up to the officers at +the door and said, "This is a Special Assistant to the President. +Let him in." So he immediately opened the doors, and I went through, +with the two Congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the +corridor the direction in which to go. There was a little confusion +in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong +direction, and were again rerouted. And in a matter, however, of a +couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, I arrived behind +these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--I saw to my right +sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor +sitting in a similar chair--to my right Mrs. Kennedy, to my left Mrs. +Connally. + +Mr. ADAMS. You didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? You +went through---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Apparently not. I am not sure of the entrance. But I just +don't know. I assume that was not the emergency entrance. + +Mr. ADAMS. And you said that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were +sitting there more or less together? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No. They were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed +outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked +through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the +left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. And +outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down +perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right +and left, the President had been placed in the emergency room to the +right and Governor Connally in the emergency room to the left. Both +doors were closed at that moment. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was there anyone with Mrs. Kennedy at the time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Powers and Mr. O'Donnell were standing there. + +Mr. ADAMS. Were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two +Congressmen you mentioned before? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The two Congressmen did not go through the doors with me. +They left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was +determined that I was being taken to the right location. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, at that point, you knew that--from the Congressmen and +from others, that the President had been shot? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then did you go up to Mrs. Kennedy or Mrs. Connally, or what +did you do then? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I immediately engaged Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers in +conversation. + +Mr. ADAMS. Can you recall that conversation? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Neither Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell had a clear idea of +the situation at the moment, but Mr. O'Donnell certainly gave me a +positive indication that there was little or no chance. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy at that +point? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not have any conversation other than attempting +to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief +moments of that nature. But conversation was extremely limited. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you know where the Vice President was at that time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not see the Vice President in the hospital. I was +given to understand by Mr. O'Donnell he was down the corridor--again, +if I did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he +was in a room across the hall. + +Mr. ADAMS. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Until the President was taken from the hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. You stayed there with Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. + +Mr. ADAMS. During that whole time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. During that period General McHugh at one +point, Malcolm Kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in +and out, Mrs. Lincoln, Dr. Burkley came in and out from time to time. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was Dr. Burkley also in the emergency room? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. As we stood there, they moved equipment, heavy emergency +equipment into the emergency room, and there was a great deal of what +you would just envision--scurrying around of nurses and doctors, a +great deal of activity. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did you go into the emergency room yourself? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not. + +Mr. ADAMS. Taking it from the point that you arrived there in the +corridor where Mrs. Kennedy was seated, how long a time passed before +it came to your knowledge that the President was dead? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall the length of time I had with specific +knowledge. My impression is I had perhaps at the outset in the first +seconds or minutes, I had some doubt this had occurred. + +I think perhaps what happened is that it penetrated, without a specific +statement by anyone. I just had to conclude this had occurred, and it +became obvious. At that point, however, Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and +I were not at all sure that this had penetrated with Mrs. Kennedy for a +few minutes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember anything about a priest? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. I recall that Mr. O'Donnell told me that he +had asked the staff, or it might have been a Secret Service man, or +hospital staff person--in any event--someone to immediately secure +a priest. There was no priest on the premises. And he had assumed +perhaps a priest was en route, because by that time the knowledge that +something serious had occurred certainly had become known through +police radio and what-have-you. + +But the priest arrived in a relatively short time. I don't know the +specific time. But it didn't seem to be an awful long time. And, as a +matter of fact, my recollection is that a second priest arrived, and +then a third priest. + +Mr. ADAMS. And you don't know who they were? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not. + +Mr. ADAMS. During this interval, between the time that you arrived +where Mrs. Kennedy was seated and the time it was officially determined +that the President was dead, do you recall any conversation with Mrs. +Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No conversation other than, "Is there anything we can do +for you?" Or a conversation of that nature in very brief and occasional +sentences--no conversation as such. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. Powers stay with you all that time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; he did. + +Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Donnell? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did there come a time when Mr. O'Donnell left? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell, at one point we discussed the +situation--and Mr. O'Donnell at one point determined that he should +cross the corridor and advise the Vice President of what the situation +appeared to be at that moment. And as I recall, it was the conclusion +that this was an extremely serious matter, we hadn't any formal advice +or official advice on the situation, but the seriousness of it should +be imparted to the Vice President. + +He left briefly for that purpose, I assume, and returned to the +position where we had been standing. + +Mr. ADAMS. How did it come officially to your notice that the President +was dead? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Again, I just don't know. It was a matter of standing for +what seemed to be an interminable period of time--I have no idea the +specific time--and, again, I cannot recall a specific instance when an +announcement was made. It was more just finally having what gradually +became obvious penetrate with you, it was, that it was an actuality. + +Mr. ADAMS. How was the fact conveyed to Mrs. Kennedy? Do you remember +that? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't remember a specific conversation by anyone with +her. People came to her, hospital staff people, doctors from time to +time that would lean down and whisper to her. I don't know whether at +one of those occasions this was specifically stated. I think, again, +perhaps it was just gradually we all came to a conclusion. + +Mr. ADAMS. Well, at any rate, after the fact was--had, as you well put +it, had penetrated, what happened next, as far as you know? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Our concern, in our discussions--Mr. O'Donnell and I +discussed what should be done. Our major concern was that obviously you +just could not leave Mrs. Kennedy sitting in this chair, drenched in +blood. Something certainly had to take place. + +In that context, we felt steps should be taken to remove the President +from the hospital. And someone, either Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell, had +suggested at one point during the several minutes, that Mrs. Kennedy +might want to retire to a room a couple of doors down the corridor. Our +attempt to bring this about was not successful, because she started to +walk and then turned around and said, "I want to stay with him." And +she went back to the chair. + +Mr. O'Donnell, at a point in these proceedings, issued the directions +to the Secret Service to secure a coffin. As I recall it, the coffin +arrived in a very reasonable time. Whoever handled those arrangements +certainly did it--carried out his responsibility well, because--again, +time had a way of going on, and it is hard to determine a matter of +minutes. But the coffin arrived, in any event, and was wheeled into the +room. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell leave at this point--did he leave Mrs. +Kennedy and go somewhere else, do you recall? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. He, as I recall, again, went to the room in which the Vice +President was waiting, to tell him specifically that the President had +died, and to discuss with him the steps to move the Vice President out +of the hospital and to the airport and on to Washington. + +Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell come back and tell you about that +discussion? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. He came back and told me that he had advised the +President, and he had had a discussion with the President. And I don't +remember any of the details of it. + +Mr. ADAMS. That covered two basic points--that President Kennedy's body +was to be removed from the hospital forthwith, and the other was that +the Vice President was to return to Washington? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. + +Mr. ADAMS. What were the reasons that led to the decision, if you know, +that the Vice President would return to Washington? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe it was in the context of the death of the +President, what steps, if any, were necessary for the Vice President +to assume the responsibility of the office forthwith, and our great +concern about the situation in which Mrs. Kennedy was being left in +this corridor, without any plan for taking care of her. So I think the +basic idea was to leave the hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was there any discussion as to whether there might or might +not be some general conspiracy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Not with me. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I must add, however, that during the course of this, +that none of us had any knowledge of actually what had occurred. And +I am sure that some of us gave thought to what might still occur. We +just had no idea. And we felt that certainly the first step was the +protection of the new President and the taking care of Mrs. Kennedy as +best we could. We tried to give some clarity of thoughts to the steps +that were necessary. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, you discussed these problems with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. +Powers, I suppose. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. And anyone else? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. + +Mr. ADAMS. I will take you back to the point where the coffin arrived. +What happened then? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The coffin was wheeled into the emergency room. At that +point, a man arrived on the scene who, I assume, was the coroner, or +someone representing the coroner's office. I do not know his name. And +he stated that the President could not be taken from the hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was this in Mrs. Kennedy's presence? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall this conversation took place just outside +those swinging doors with the glass panels. And I would--I believe, +therefore, that she did not hear this conversation. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency +room, what did Mrs. Kennedy do? Did she enter at that time, or at any +time, so far as you recall? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is that she did enter the room, but I +don't recall it was at that time, and I am not sure what specific time. + +Mr. ADAMS. Well, going back to this official who said the body could +not be removed--you were present at that time with Mr. O'Donnell and +Mr. Powers? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. And what happened with respect to that discussion? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Dr. Burkley, the President's physician, entered +into that discussion. And as I recall he and this official went into a +little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion +that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. And +the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. Burkley--Dr. +Burkley was quite exercised. It was apparent that this fellow was not +going to--he was going to be adamant in his position. And very soon +another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a +judge. + +Mr. ADAMS. Does the name Brown refresh your recollection? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't know as I heard his name. But he was then +described as the judge--a judge, and the indication was that he, +therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other +official that had been carrying on this discussion with Dr. Burkley. + +He was equally adamant. The reference was made, either specifically by +him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated +as just another homicide, and that no other--no special considerations +could be given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern +about Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and +that we could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for +hours or even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the +President should be taken from the hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and Dr. +Burkley? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The casket was brought out from the emergency room, +wheeled out through these two folding doors. And the members of the +Secret Service gathered around it. They had made a determination on +their own as to the exit. An ambulance was waiting. Preparations had +been made by the Secret Service to accomplish this. And we all--Mr. +O'Donnell, Mr. Powers and I, General McHugh, and two or three members +of the Secret Service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor. + +My recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or +all officials. My recollection is also that we paid little heed to it. + +Mr. ADAMS. These were vigorous objections, I gather. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say they were. And the only very minor problem +that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in +point of arrival was still present. The other two priests had departed +after expressing their condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. But this priest was +standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize +some prayers at that point. And I suggested to him that he step aside. +Our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective +block put in our way. + +Mr. ADAMS. And who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy at that time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one +time Mr. O'Donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps Mr. +Powers--but among us we escorted her along. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then when you finally got the casket out through this +corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. In a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. The +driver in the car--Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance. And Mr. +O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, and I went into the back seat of this car. + +Mr. ADAMS. Was this a police car? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It was an official car of some sort. + +Mr. ADAMS. At that time do you know whether or not the Vice President +had left the hospital? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know. + +Mr. ADAMS. Had he arrived at Love Field by the time you got out there? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. + +Mr. ADAMS. And what happened when you arrived at Love Field? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, again the Secret Service and those of us in the +official party that had arrived at the field--I guess specifically +again the three of us--helped to move the coffin up the steps of the +plane. It was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the +normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to +accomplish this without some difficulty. But it was brought onto the +plane. + +At that point I noticed that seats to the left of the door had been +removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We +placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and +Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment +from that area of the plane. + +Mrs. Kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at +a table to the left in the rear compartment, and Mrs. Johnson and the +President went over to her. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you know how it came to pass that the President was sworn +in at that time? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and Mrs. Johnson, after a brief discussion +with Mrs. Kennedy, went into the Presidential compartment--I guess +that is the best way to describe that section of the plane--this would +be where the President's chair and desk are located. He asked Mr. +O'Donnell to join him. + +During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we +were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple +of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President +asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was +awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured +the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a +preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. And +that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes. + +So while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the President, Mr. +O'Donnell and I, joined by Mrs. Johnson, after a couple of minutes, +sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact +that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing +in ceremony. And during that period we briefly discussed the first +step of the President to insure continuity, and either just before the +swearing-in or immediately following it, the President discussed with +Mr. O'Donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to +shoulder with him. + +The judge arrived---- + +Mr. ADAMS. During that interval, who was staying with Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom +adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment. + +The judge arrived in minutes. And it was suggested that those in the--I +guess the best way to describe it--the front of the plane, those who +could move into the compartment, including those representing the +press, a single photographer was brought aboard. The wording of the +oath was available. The judge took her position. The President said +that he certainly wanted Mrs. Kennedy with him at this moment. I went +to the bedroom. The door to the adjoining restroom was closed. I +went out and asked Mrs. Lincoln if she would see if Mrs. Kennedy was +available. She went in and came out with Mrs. Kennedy, and she took her +place to the President's left, Mrs. Johnson to the President's right, +the others grouped around. I stood behind the judge, and just as the +judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small +Bible in a white box. I took the Bible from the box, interrupted the +judge just momentarily, and handed her the Bible. She completed the +ceremony. + +Then everyone immediately settled down. The judge departed from the +plane, the photographer from the plane. Everyone settled down, and we +took off without further delay. + +Mr. ADAMS. As a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened +to the Bible? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know. + +Mr. ADAMS. The plane then departed immediately? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct. + +Mr. ADAMS. And---- + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell and I went to the rear compartment where we +joined Mr. Powers and General McHugh. Mrs. Kennedy was seated in one +of the two chairs. Mr. O'Donnell took the other chair. The three of us +stood. The plane took off. And we remained with Mrs. Kennedy for the +duration of the trip to Washington. + +We consulted, or were consulted by General Clifton and Mr. Moyers +on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the +President's activity upon arrival here in Washington. One suggestion +was made that we--that they call in for a meeting of the White +House staff. But that was discarded as impractical at this point. +Arrangements were made, however, which Mr. Moyers checked with me, on +the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the President, +and arrangements were put in effect for the President to meet the Under +Secretary of State in the absence of the Secretary and other officials +here. + +Mr. ADAMS. How did it come about that the remains of President Kennedy +were taken to the naval hospital? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. It was my understanding that the President would be taken +to a hospital. I don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically +other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of +the military hospitals in Washington. And obviously there were two to +select from, and the President being an ex-Navy man, it seemed just +sort of normal to suggest Bethesda. + +Mr. ADAMS. And you remained with Mrs. Kennedy during the entire trip? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. ADAMS. What was her condition? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. She conversed a great deal with us. The one impression +left with me from the entire trip and conversations with Mrs. Kennedy +during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern +for us, really--her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him +at the beginning and we were with him at the end. We were all bereft. +And I am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some +comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was +difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way +of being helpful. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as +you made the trip up? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. + +Mr. ADAMS. What happened when you arrived? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. A lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. The +honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back +compartment. We concluded that we would take the body off the plane. + +Mr. ADAMS. You say "we." You mean Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and +yourself? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. General McHugh. And so we proceeded to do just that. We +took the--lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and +placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there. + +We--the three of us--four of us--McHugh was with us--got into a car. +The Attorney General and Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance, if that +is what it was. And we followed in a car directly behind that, went out +to Bethesda Naval Hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. What did you do when you arrived there? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. We went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, +where we joined members of the President's family. General McHugh went +elsewhere. And we then spent several hours in these rooms on, I don't +know what floor of the hospital. + +Mr. ADAMS. When you referred to the President's family, what particular +members were there? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Mrs. Stephen Smith was there. + +Mr. ADAMS. Mrs. Attorney General Kennedy? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. I don't recall all the members of the family. The +Attorney General--and there were--there was an occasional person that +came and went during the night But that was basically the group. + +We had coffee and received reports from time to time from General +McHugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from +Bethesda to the White House. And the hours went on and on, until the +early hours of the morning--perhaps 4 a.m. + +Mr. ADAMS. And then what did you do? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. We came to the White House, at which point several members +of the White House staff, Mr. Shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the +President. He was placed in the East Room. A brief prayer was given, +and that terminated the evening. + +Mr. ADAMS. I would like to ask you to go back again and give me +your recollections of the President's views about the nature of the +protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was +towards security. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation I had with the +President in this area. All I can say is that the President at all +times was most interested in close contact with his fellow Americans, +and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him +from the people, he was quick to move towards people. He certainly +moved quite freely. But I do not recall ever having a conversation or +being present during the course of a conversation when the specific +protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to +them. + +Mr. ADAMS. Other than what you have said here, do you have any +knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it +might be? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. None whatsoever. + +Mr. ADAMS. Do you have any other thing I have not covered that you +would like to put in this record? + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. I believe that to the best of my +recollection I have tried to carefully review all aspects of the +matter, from departure from the lawn of the White House to arrival back +at the White House. And I cannot call anything to mind now that I might +have overlooked. + +Mr. ADAMS. Now, finally, it is a custom in this Commission to make +transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before +signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. That is entirely +up to you. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I would like to have the transcript. + +Mr. ADAMS. Then we will send it along in the next few days, and when +you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back +to the Commission we would appreciate it. + +Mr. O'BRIEN. I certainly will. + +Mr. ADAMS. That closes this deposition. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID F. POWERS + +The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my +knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963. + +I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, +on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, +Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of +the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President +asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was +there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came +to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came +to see Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. +Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that +seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was +very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and +on motorcades. + +The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at +approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high +spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to +the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that +they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too +much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the +first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice +President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), +along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President +and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was +standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret +Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's +car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an +open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents +in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running +boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth +O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car. + +The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my +opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. +Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were +observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate +the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the +extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as +much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was +seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the +opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to +the crowds on each side. + +As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of +occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through +the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off +of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm +Street. + +At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an +hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about +our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted +that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due +at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 +and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the +Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded +to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President +moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand +side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor +Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which +took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound +of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time +between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first +impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I +also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the +front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from +my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might +have ridden into an ambush. + +At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated +sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy +climbed onto the back of the car. Perhaps she may have been looking for +help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think +Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of +the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would +have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in +the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade. + +We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon +arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President +Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent +Kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. The three of us and Special +Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. +Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the +emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a +chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell +went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital. + +I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from +the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear +compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. +On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her +clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air +Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda +Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body +in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the +other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early +hours of the morning on November 23, 1963. + +Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C. + + (S) David F. Powers, + DAVID F. POWERS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF CLIFTON C. CARTER + +The following affidavit was executed by Clifton C. Carter on May 20, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Clifton C. Carter, make the following affidavit concerning my +knowledge of the events of November 22, 1963. + +Vice President Johnson and I had been in Texas during the week +preceding November 22nd, and we had met the party of President Kennedy +in San Antonio, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963. + +I was on the Vice President's plane (AF-2) when it landed at Dallas +Love Field on November 22 at about 11:30 a.m. Vice President and Mrs. +Johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted +President and Mrs. Kennedy, who arrived in the President's plane +(AF-1). President and Mrs. Kennedy then shook hands with people in the +crowd along an iron fence. While the Presidential party greeted the +crowd, I went to the automobile where I was to ride in the motorcade. +It was a Secret Service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the Vice +President. Our car was right behind the Vice President's automobile, +which was immediately to the rear of the Presidential Secret Service +follow-up car, which drove right behind the President's automobile. + +The automobile in which I rode was driven by a Dallas policeman. I sat +in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my +lap. Special Agent Jerry D. Kivett sat on my right and Special Agent +Len Johns and someone else were in the rear seat. This was an unmarked +Dallas police car. + +Nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from Love Field to the +downtown Dallas area. The crowds were very large and very friendly, +except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about +President Kennedy. I would estimate that the crowds were twice as +big as they were in September of 1960 when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in +Dallas. The motorcade slowed down at times, but I do not believe that +it stopped. + +The motorcade proceeded west on Main Street, made a right-hand turn +onto Houston and then swung around to the left on Elm, proceeding +slowly at about 5 to 10 miles per hour. At approximately 12:30 p.m., +our car had just made the left-hand turn off Houston onto Elm Street +and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building +when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent +Youngblood, who was seated on the right-hand side of the front seat +of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice +President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and +covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson +and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the +Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came +immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots. + +I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of +approximately 5 to 6 seconds from the first to the last shot, +and the three shots were evenly spaced. The motorcade promptly +accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to 75 to 80 miles an +hour to Parkland Memorial Hospital. The President's automobile, the +President's follow-up car, the Vice President's automobile, and the +Vice President's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at +Parkland. Attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried +President Kennedy and Governor Connally into the hospital. At one +point I briefly helped remove Governor Connally from the car onto the +stretcher. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally had been taken +into the hospital, Vice President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Special Agent +Youngblood and I entered the emergency area and were taken to a small +room where we waited. I went out on a couple of occasions to secure +coffee. Congressmen Henry Gonzalez, Jack Brooks, Homer Thornberry and +Albert Thomas came into the room where Vice President Johnson waited. +About 1 o'clock Mrs. Johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to +visit with Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. + +At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emory Roberts brought the news that +President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present +were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Len +Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson +to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the +Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate +Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy. + +Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry +(O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning +promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice +President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington +immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some +of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to +Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, +and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By +the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President +and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had +already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the +President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President +Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the +advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have +Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the +swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for +the Washington area. + +The original conversations concerning President Kennedy's trip to +Texas occurred on June 5, 1963 at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. +President Kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy +and Vice President Johnson had spoken at Annapolis. The President +and Vice President met with Governor Connally at the Cortez Hotel to +discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the President to +Texas. Fred Korth and I were present when the three men assembled, +but Fred Korth and I left during their discussion of the President's +proposed trip. The first tentative date was to have the trip coincide +with Vice-President Johnson's birthday on August 27th, but that was +rejected because it was too close to Labor Day. President Kennedy's +other commitments prevented him from coming to Texas any sooner than +November 21st, which was the date finally set. + +Signed this 20th day of May 1964. + + (S) Clifton C. Carter, + CLIFTON C. CARTER. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EARLE CABELL + +The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney +general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the +city of Dallas. + +Mr. CABELL. Former mayor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that right? + +Mr. CABELL. I resigned in February. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the +advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. +Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, +1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of +procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with +that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized +to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. + +Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I +understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr. +J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that +correct? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CABELL. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. CABELL. My name is Earle Cabell. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence? + +Mr. CABELL. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor +of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago? + +Mr. CABELL. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a +2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned +that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of +Representatives of the United States. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? +I simply want to get some background for the record. + +Mr. CABELL. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy +products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas. + +Mr. HUBERT. You still have that business? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I am not connected with that business officially any +longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, +which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in +an advisory capacity. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, +but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment +upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George +Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification +as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked +"Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable +Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these +succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand +lower corner. + +Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you +have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right? + +Mr. CABELL. I have read it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a +report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate +and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you? + +Mr. CABELL. It is entirely so. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any corrections or additions? + +Mr. CABELL. I find no corrections or additions to make to that +statement. + +Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just +what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of +Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to +the police department. + +Mr. CABELL. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council +is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status +of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the +people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the +spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative +responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and +policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other +city officials or department heads. + +The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those +department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the +appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is +not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct +administrative action through or over any of the department heads +appointed by and responsible to the city manager. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many members compose the council, sir? + +Mr. CABELL. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor. + +Mr. HUBERT. They are elected? + +Mr. CABELL. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large. +That is, they are all voted upon. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by +the council or by the mayor? + +Mr. CABELL. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by +council action. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was +Mr. Crull? + +Mr. CABELL. Elgin E. Crull. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, for the record, you were then Mayor? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think it might be well also for the record if we have the +names of the people that composed the council at that time. + +Mr. CABELL. The council at that time was composed of Mr. Carie Welch. +He was also mayor pro tem. Mr. William Roberts, Mrs. Tracy Rutherford, +Mr. Joe Moody, Mr. Joe Golman, Mrs. Elizabeth Blessing, Mr. George +Underwood, Jr., Mr. R. B. Carpenter. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Mr. Crull had been serving as city +manager for quite some time? + +Mr. CABELL. Something over 10 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe briefly for us the relationship between +the mayor and the council and the city manager? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, it is the relationship of the general manager of +a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day +contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that +board. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the city manager really has the detailed +administration of city affairs? + +Mr. CABELL. He is entirely responsible for the administrative functions +of the city government. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the +council; is that correct? + +Mr. CABELL. As the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on +the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of +being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on +day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through +the mayor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does the council make any other appointments than the +appointment of the city manager? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city +attorney, the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and +the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the Dallas +Clearing House Association. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand then that the chief of police is appointed by +the city manager completely? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct; and is responsible only to the city +manager. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of +the city manager? What authority do they have? + +Mr. CABELL. They confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein +their salaries are stipulated and they are named. + +Mr. HUBERT. But it is not an appointment such as with Federal officials +where the President appoints and the city confirms? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now I want to ask you to state what you observed concerning +the actual shooting of the President, and perhaps the best way to start +is to tell us what position you were in in the Presidential parade. + +Mr. CABELL. We were separated from the President's car by the car in +which the Vice President and Senator Yarborough were riding, and by +a station wagon holding, I think, certain members of the press and +possibly some Secret Service, and I believe one other car of Secret +Service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our +place in the motorcade and the Presidential car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was in your car other than the driver? + +Mr. CABELL. Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts from McKinney, +Tex., Congressman from the Fourth District, and myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just the three of you? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who the driver was? + +Mr. CABELL. I do not remember his name. He was a member of the +Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you observe anything at all relative to the +shooting of the President? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm, +making the left turn, when the first shot rang out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir? + +Mr. CABELL. I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot", +and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker" +when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer +pause between the first and second shots than there was between the +second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There +was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a +high-powered rifle. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it +was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person +who knows something about it? + +Mr. CABELL. I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military +shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the armed services during the war? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to +their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of +the building known as the School Book Depository. + +Mr. HUBERT. That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you +thought the sound came? + +Mr. CABELL. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the +first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the +second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10 +seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than +5 seconds having elapsed until the third one. + +Mr. HUBERT. Two to one ratio? + +Mr. CABELL. Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned, +as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds +because they were not counted. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now when you became conscious that these were shots and +that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas +School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building? + +Mr. CABELL. My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding +in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver? + +Mr. CABELL. I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a +convertible in which we were riding with the top down. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from +behind? + +Mr. CABELL. From behind. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn in the direction of the shots? + +Mr. CABELL. I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential +car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves +on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in +the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the +building itself. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in any of the windows? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark +to you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that +remark was made immediately after the first shot? + +Mr. CABELL. Just immediately; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And before the second and third, is that right? + +Mr. CABELL. And really before I could get my answer out--I think it was +motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to +say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone +else in the car? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, in the discussion which followed, both Mr. Roberts +and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a .30-06. + +Mr. HUBERT. By spontaneous, I meant those remarks made just +immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see. + +Mr. CABELL. I don't remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. So you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a +spontaneous nature? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the +Presidential car and the vice presidential car went on? + +Mr. CABELL. Then we just followed and told the driver to follow them. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went on then to the---- + +Mr. CABELL. We went on to the hospital. We could not tell whether they +were just going back to the airport or going toward the hospital. Now +there was a question raised among us as to where we were headed. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't in fact know who had been hit, I take it? + +Mr. CABELL. No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was +confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men +ran to that car. From out of nowhere appeared one Secret Service man +with a submachine gun. His attention seemed to be focused up toward +the building. One of the motorcycle officers and the escort pulled +his motorcycle over to the side and jumped off with his drawn handgun +and ran up the slope toward the building, toward the School Book +Depository. I do not recall any other shots being fired than the three +which I mentioned. + +Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that you got to the hospital very shortly +after the Presidential car did? + +Mr. CABELL. Of course, when we turned off of Stemmons Expressway, we +knew then that we were headed toward Parkland. Otherwise, we would have +proceeded on Stemmons to Mockingbird Lane, which would have been the +direct route to the airport. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the hospital, had the President been +removed from the car? + +Mr. CABELL. He was in the process of being removed; was on the +carriage. Another carriage was brought out, and I was there and helped +to steady the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car +and placed on the carriage and wheeled in. And I helped escort the +carriage on into the hospital into the anteroom and stayed there until +the body was removed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to the room in which a press +conference was held, at which the official announcement was made of the +President's death? + +Mr. CABELL. I was not in when any official thing--I assumed that the +President was dead. + +Mr. HUBERT. I was trying to get the anteroom or hallway that you +described. Where was this with reference to the outside door of the +hospital, or the emergency room, or something of that sort? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, this was in the emergency section. There is a large +anteroom with a glassed-in enclosure where telephones were, and then +off from that larger room was a narrow anteroom from which a series of +operating rooms connected. + +The President was in one of those, and directly across this little +hallway then was where Governor Connally was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any news people in that area? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes; I am sure there must have been. I don't recall any +whom I recognized personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you know a reporter, newspaperman now with +Scripps-Howard, by the name of Seth Kantor? + +Mr. CABELL. I can't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now there is some information, Mr. Cabell, that Jack Ruby +was around the hospital some place, either near the entrance or near +the pressroom, or something of that sort. And, of course, I take it +that you now know what he looks like, from pictures in the press? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, I knew him by sight. + +Mr. HUBERT. You knew him by sight prior to this? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him? + +Mr. CABELL. I would say for several years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around the hospital then at any time? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed until the President's body was removed? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that, sir? + +Mr. CABELL. We went--Mrs. Cabell accompanied me and went back to Love +Field. There was a number of members of the Texas delegation to the +Congress who had accompanied the President and Vice President on the +trip down here, and I more or less took them in tow and secured a +station wagon from the vehicles that were outside the hospital and +carried them, at the direction of one of the Secret Service agents who +was more or less in charge in there, to the Southwest Airmotive side of +Love Field, which is the eastern side, because he advised me that Air +Force I would take off from that side. So there was some with us in our +car, and then the station wagon with the additional ones. When we got +to Southwest Airmotive, Air Force I was still parked on the west side +of the field where they had deplaned the passengers earlier. Realizing +that it was going to take off rather quickly, I asked the public +relations man for Southwest Airmotive to get on the radio and contact +the Air Force officer in charge through the control tower as to what to +do about these men, whether to bring them over to that side, or was the +plane going to come over there. + +We did not get a direct answer, but the squad car of the Dallas Police +Department, which is assigned to Love Field, came over and got us, +apparently through clearance of the control tower, and carried us right +straight across the field. Apparently they stopped any movement to get +us across the field. Then those men were able to board the plane. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, after you left the field, after Air Force I had left, +what was your activity then, sir? + +Mr. CABELL. We stayed there on the ground until after _Air Force 1_ +had taken off with the body of the President. We conferred for a few +minutes with Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief of Police Curry. Chief Curry +was in the plane and a witness to the swearing in of President Johnson. +Shortly after it took off, then Mrs. Cabell, and I returned home. +We dropped Mrs. Cabell off, and then the driver carried me to Mr. +Jonsson's house where I left my car, and then I returned home. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first know of the apprehension of Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. On the field there, Chief Curry told us of the killing of +Officer Tippit, and I believe told us at the same time that they had +apprehended the suspect. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the suspect of the killing of the +President, or of Tippit? + +Mr. CABELL. That he was one and the same. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what information he had to indicate that +the killer of Tippit was also the assassin of the President? + +Mr. CABELL. Only that it was believed that he was one and the same. Now +the details, I did not get at that time either concerning the killing +of Officer Tippit or the subsequent apprehension of Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was your next contact with Curry, if you recall? + +Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Curry. This was not +a face to face or personal contact. It was telephonic concerning the +issuance of this parade permit, which is covered in the report by the +bureau man. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was a conference by telephone on Sunday the 24th? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact, to your knowledge, with him? + +Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Chief Curry. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a contact with any other member of the police +department? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge of the situation in the county +jail with reference to the news media? + +Mr. CABELL. That was the city jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon, city jail, with reference to the +covering of the matter by the news media, and the confusion that came +about as a result of that? + +Mr. CABELL. I knew fairly well what was going on by watching my own +TV from time to time and the covering that they had on the activities +around the police department of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any meeting of the council during the interval +between the 22d and the 24th? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any contact with City Manager Crull during +that time? + +Mr. CABELL. The Sunday morning, I knew that the city manager was out +of town, and in my conversation with Chief Curry subsequent to the +shooting of Oswald, I asked him if he had made contact with Mr. Crull, +and suggested that if he had not, that he do make immediate contact and +ask for his return to the city. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was after the shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. This was after the shooting of Oswald. And he told me at +that time that Mr. Crull had been contacted and was on his way back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know prior to the shooting of Oswald, or have you +learned since whether there was any awareness in the police department +of possible danger to Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. No, no. After it had all occurred, then I recall having +been told by someone that there had been an attempt, or that an attempt +would be made, but that is not clear, and purely a matter of hearsay. + +Mr. HUBERT. I believe in your conversation with Chief Curry on Sunday, +you discussed a threat that had been made to you, or indirectly? + +Mr. CABELL. He called me that this call had come through the +switchboard of the city hall, and it was his understanding that it +was long distance, but he did not know the source, and since it was a +direct dial and they could not trace it, there was not enough time, +wherein the caller said that an attempt would be made on my life. + +Mr. HUBERT. He told you that was a long-distance call? + +Mr. CABELL. It was his impression, the switchboard operator's +impression that it was some long distance. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to Oswald's death? + +Mr. CABELL. No; that was following Oswald's death, and that is when he +told me that he was sending officers out to maintain security. + +Mr. HUBERT. Attached to page 3 it seems to indicate that the call with +Curry must have occurred a bit before you received the news of Oswald's +shooting? + +Mr. CABELL. The first call from Curry, or only the starting of any +conversations with Chief Curry were relative to this torchlight parade +on that night. I had called him and told him that I would recommend +the cancellation of that parade. He had granted it, but then I had +recommended the cancellation, and I would assume full responsibility +for having given that instruction. + +Mr. HUBERT. At that time Oswald had not been shot? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. But on that first call then, was there any discussion +between you and Chief Curry about the transfer of Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion about the security precautions +that were being observed or the problems that they were? + +Mr. CABELL. I do not recall any discussion on that at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry did not tell you that any threats had been made +to Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period November 22 until the shooting of +Oswald, did you have any conversations with the press concerning the +whole matter? + +Mr. CABELL. There were a number of calls. There were members of the +press, both the national and international press that came to my home +during that period. I had given a statement on Friday night to both +television stations. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was by---- + +Mr. CABELL. That was on Friday. + +Mr. HUBERT. On television? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether any part of those statements or +interviews had to do with the transfer of Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. None whatsoever. There was never any during that period. +There was never any mention of that. It was not brought up nor +discussed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then later on Sunday morning, I understand after the +security call from Chief Curry, there was another call from him with +regard to the death of Oswald? + +Mr. CABELL. He called me. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean the shooting of Oswald. + +Mr. CABELL. Yes; the incident referred to here about a friend calling. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say "here." You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. +1? + +Mr. CABELL. "He received a telephone call from a friend." That friend +was Mrs. R. O. Alexander who said, "Do you have your television on?" +And I said, No. She said, "Get it on quick. They have just shot +Oswald." And I immediately turned my television on. I was in the den +where I was sitting and taking these telephone calls, and then just +as I get it turned on, they still had not removed Oswald at that +time because this was just a matter of a minute or 2 from the actual +shooting. Then Chief Curry called and said, "They have just shot +Oswald." And I said, "Yes; I have it on TV now." + +Mr. HUBERT. Was any action taken then by anybody, do you know, +concerning, first, security measures or further protection against? + +Mr. CABELL. Nothing to my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think I have asked this before. If I have, then just +disregard it, but did you contact City Manager Crull during the +interval? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I did not contact him. Now he came to my home +immediately on his return to the city. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which was about what time? + +Mr. CABELL. This was, well, it was early afternoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of the 24th? + +Mr. CABELL. This was on the 24th, on Sunday; yes. It was about 1 +o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you comment upon this Lancaster Smith Proposal of a +parade? + +Mr. CABELL. Lane Smith is a very well-known, very active lay worker +in the Catholic church, and he had called me earlier, and I think the +suggestion for this came from some nuns, and when he first talked to me +I didn't realize frankly the implications or the hazard of a procession +such as that, and I told him--he asked about a permit, and I said that +that is a matter that is handled by the chief of police, that he would +have to be the one to issue a permit for any type of parade, because +that is what that amounted to. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was the proposal of Mr. Smith? + +Mr. CABELL. Well, a torchlight procession of both the clergy and any +lay people as a procession of mourning that would pass by the site of +the assassination and put flowers at the site. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was proposed for Sunday night? + +Mr. CABELL. That was proposed for Sunday night, and after having +talked with him, then the implications began to dawn on me, and when +I realized that that was in a rather poorly lighted area, it is not +in the best part of town, and that the procession itself would pass +possibly under the very window of the jail where Oswald presumably +would be by that time, then that was the reason behind my calling the +chief then. + +He told me he had issued the permit because he had no reason not to, +and then that is when I made the recommendation that it be canceled. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was canceled in fact? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes; it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Before Oswald was shot? + +Mr. CABELL. Oh, I think undoubtedly, because he said he would call Lanc +immediately back. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did Lancaster Smith call you? + +Mr. CABELL. I think it must have been around 8 or 9 o'clock in the +morning, originally. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then you called Chief Curry about what time? + +Mr. CABELL. Must have been very shortly after that. I would say 9 +o'clock or possibly a short time after. I believe that it must have +been just a little before 10, because I think that he was talking to me +in his office at the time word was brought to him that Oswald was shot, +or possibly had hung up the phone, or he would have mentioned that to +me at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Because the evidence we now have shows that Oswald was shot +about 11:20, so perhaps your time would have been 11 rather than 10? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes; I was thinking in terms of 10 o'clock being the hour +of shooting, but we can move this conversation with Curry to a matter +of minutes preceding the shooting of Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now were any threatening calls received by you directly? + +Mr. CABELL. Only one, which was received by Mrs. Cabell on New Year's +Eve. + +Mr. HUBERT. December 31, 1963? + +Mr. CABELL. December 31, 1963; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any received indirectly? + +Mr. CABELL. Only those that were reported to us by Chief Curry. There +was one incident which was not a call, but which was an unusual thing +and which caused a certain amount of apprehension. + +On a Saturday evening, which one I can't tell you, but it was while +security was being maintained, that I decided to go out and eat dinner. +Mrs. Cabell did not want to go. She said she would just stay at home. +One of the officers stayed with Mrs. Cabell. The other one accompanied +me to Tupinamba, a Mexican cafe on Lovers Lane. I told Mrs. Cabell I +would get Mexican food there. There are three places in the immediate +vicinity, all of which we patronize from time to time. + +The officer and I were in having our dinner when the proprietor came +over and said that I was wanted on the phone. I picked up the receiver. +I could hear traffic noises in the background, so I knew that the +line was open. I said, Hello several times, and the receiver clicked +in my ear. I thought that Mrs. Cabell had possibly tried to get hold +of me, and I called her, and she said, "No, she had not." So it was +obvious that someone who was either in the restaurant and had left +when we came in, or had seen us enter the restaurant, put in this call, +apparently just a nuisance or harassing type of thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been in the restaurant did this call +come? + +Mr. CABELL. Oh, a matter of 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You never found the source of that? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was any investigation made? + +Mr. CABELL. There was no way of making an investigation. The assumption +is that the call was placed from one of the public telephones that are +up and down that business section there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, there have been some reports as to the +authenticity or veracity of, for which I do not vouch at all, to the +effect that some pressure was put upon Chief of Police Curry by you or +others to cooperate with the press in all ways possible. I think in +fairness I should give you an opportunity to comment upon that. + +Mr. CABELL. There was one that has been rumored. One of our local +weekly publications made that as a statement. That is completely false. +At no time did I have any contact with Chief Curry to the extent that +I gave him any orders, instructions, or make any comment upon the +situation other than the contact which I have mentioned with reference +to this proposed torchlight parade. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon him by anyone in +authority over him? + +Mr. CABELL. I do not know of any, and my assumption would be, and I say +assumption, would be that none had been made, because I know how Mr. +Crull operates to the extent that he would not interfere in the duties +of his chief of police. Now I am sure that they had conversations with +reference to security and that sort of thing, but I would question very +definitely that any orders as such on that subject would have been +issued by Mr. Crull. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, neither you nor anyone else, to your +knowledge, did anything of that sort, to wit, bring pressure upon him +in anyway whatsoever? + +Mr. CABELL. That is entirely correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, do you have anything else to say, sir? + +Mr. CABELL. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that I could add. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of the recordation of your +testimony, we had a very short conversation, but will you agree with +me now that there was nothing that was discussed in that conversation +relating to the testimony that has not been actually covered in the +deposition? + +Mr. CABELL. That is correct. I recall no conversation of any sort +pertaining to this incident that has not been covered in the +examination under this deposition. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. + +(The following questions were asked upon completion of the deposition +of Mrs. Earle Cabell.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Mayor Cabell, I wonder if you would agree for just a couple +of questions for your deposition to be continued under the same terms +and conditions that I began, and that you are under the same oath? + +Mr. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to comment, if you will, please, about +the recordation of conversations on your telephone, telling us when the +recordation system was set up, and when removed. + +Mr. CABELL. It was set up on Sunday afternoon. That would have been +the 24th; which recorded all conversations that came into action when +the receiver was taken off the hook. It was removed on, I would say, +after about 3 weeks. I am quite sure that it had been removed prior to +December 31. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever learned of any conversations that +were of a threatening nature? + +Mr. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have not heard the tape, of course? + +Mr. CABELL. No; I have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is reasonable to suppose that if any had been recorded, +it would have been brought to your attention? + +Mr. CABELL. I am sure it would. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who has the possession of that tape? + +Mr. CABELL. The police department. + +Mr. HUBERT. They still have it? + +Mr. CABELL. I am assuming that they still have it. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much, sir. I certainly thank both +of you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLE CABELL + +The testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell was taken at 10 a.m., on July 13, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant +attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell. Mrs. Cabell, +my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions +of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by +the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and +the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition +from you, among others. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cabell, the nature of +the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death +of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general +inquiry. + +Now Mrs. Cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed +actually to you and your husband, Mayor Earle Cabell, by Mr. J. Lee +Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is +that correct? That letter was dated either the 8th or 9th, or in any +case was received on the 8th or 9th of July? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mrs. CABELL. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for the record, please, ma'am. + +Mrs. CABELL. Mrs. Earle Cabell. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are the wife of former Mayor Earle Cabell? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You reside with him now at what address? + +Mrs. CABELL. 5338 Drane. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I think you were with your husband in the +presidential parade on November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. CABELL. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us in your own words what you +observed concerning the shooting of the President. I might say that +your husband has testified that you were in the second or third car +behind the President's car--the third or fourth car. + +Mrs. CABELL. Third or fourth. We have never been able to be sure about +that, because we were under the impression--of course, the chief of +police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the +impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car, +the station wagon apparently with Secret Service men, and then our car. +There have been other statements made which we have never been quite +sure of, that there was a Secret Service car between the presidential +car and the vice presidential car. If that is true, we were one car +further back. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible? + +Mrs. CABELL. Behind the driver. + +Mr. HUBERT. Behind the driver. That would have put---- + +Mrs. CABELL. Me on the left. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was on your right? + +Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Ray Roberts? + +Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the +front seat? + +Mrs. CABELL. The right of the driver. + +Mr. HUBERT. The right of the driver. Now will you tell us in your own +words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the President's death? + +Mrs. CABELL. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School +Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us. + +Congressman Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned +the same way. I was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each +other. The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang +out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the +building. I was directly facing it. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was still really on Houston? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; we were making the turn. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just on the turn? + +Mrs. CABELL. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you +see. + +Mr. HUBERT. Since you were actually turned toward Representative +Roberts on your right? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you were facing---- + +Mrs. CABELL. The building. + +Mr. HUBERT. The Texas Depository Building? + +Mrs. CABELL. I was actually facing it. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary +nature, or heard? + +Mrs. CABELL. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I +jerked my head up. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that? + +Mrs. CABELL. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, +and I just jerked my head up. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you see? + +Mrs. CABELL. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those +windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos. + +Mr. HUBERT. In which window did you see the projection? + +Mrs. CABELL. I have always been a little confused about that, but I +think it was the first window. + +Mr. HUBERT. On what floor? + +Mrs. CABELL. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which +window. There was some confusion in my mind. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you say there were double windows. Is the confusion +about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or +second window of the double windows? + +Mrs. CABELL. The first or second window of the first group of double +windows. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was this projection? + +Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the +projection. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or +something mechanical? + +Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or +a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked +my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to +say to Earle, Earle, it is a shot, and before I got the words out, just +as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a----" the +second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of +confusion in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I +was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question +about that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation +of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your +attention from that window? + +Mrs. CABELL. That is right. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that +window when the second and third shots were fired? + +Mrs. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter? + +Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the +people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the +ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw +herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope. + +Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell +of gunpowder? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after? + +Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the +motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts +said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired? + +Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor? + +Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill? + +Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the +hospital? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that +you had smelled gunpowder? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned +it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks +ago. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he had observed it? + +Mrs. CABELL. As well as I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group, +a large group, and there was much conversation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any other spontaneous remarks by anyone else? +By spontaneous remarks, I mean remarks made then, not later. + +Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts--and I believe this was after +the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of some +seconds--then when the motorcade started up, Congressman Roberts +said--these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: +"If all is well ahead, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting +out." + +Mr. HUBERT. His previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which +you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was +fired and before you began to move? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any other remark made by anyone other than those +that you have covered? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "If +all is well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Who said? + +Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts said, "If all is well, we are headed +for Love Field. We are getting out." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did the driver say anything, to your knowledge? + +Mrs. CABELL. I don't recall that he said a word. + +Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you were standing absolutely still for +a few seconds, did you have occasion, or did you in fact look up at +that window again? + +Mrs. CABELL. Not again, as I recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the hospital too? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were with your husband? + +Mrs. CABELL. When we reached the hospital, the Presidential car was +pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which +pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. And as my +husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and +said, "Stay in the car." And I believe at that time that Congressman +Roberts got out of the car. The Texas delegation was standing around +the cars at that time. And I sat in the car with our driver for quite +some time. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long, about? + +Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. Time left me that day. I sat there +for quite a long time. I stood up and I saw them taking the President +out of the car. I saw my husband by the carriage when the Governor +was taken out of the car. Then our driver, after they went into the +hospital, turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the +Texas delegation, Senator Yarborough, all of the others--the delegation +moved back and forth from the car where I was sitting, up to the door +of the hospital. It is my impression that none of them went in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes; twice. Do you want me to tell you both times? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma'am. + +Mrs. CABELL. Well, this is a little difficult for me to tell. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. What I am interested in is whether +or not you saw Jack Ruby there. Did you know him prior to that time? + +Mrs. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen his pictures? + +Mrs. CABELL. Since; but I had never seen him before. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at any place that you went in the hospital, +in front of the hospital, or about the hospital on that day? + +Mrs. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. In order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him +there, would you tell us just what places you were? + +Mrs. CABELL. In the hospital? + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you out there for some time? + +Mrs. CABELL. There came a time when it was necessary for me to find a +ladies' room. I walked up to one of the many police officers at the +door and I said, Officer, I am Mrs. Earle Cabell. He said, "Yes, Mrs. +Cabell, I know." I have no idea which officer it was. I said, "It is +necessary for me to go into the ladies' room. Can you get me in?" He +said, "I can try." He had quite a good deal of trouble getting me in +and identifying me. They did not let me go in until a nurse's aid was +brought to the door. They did not let me stay on the first floor where +the emergency section was. They took me to the left. This nurse's aid +took me to the left with the police officer following, and we crossed +the cafeteria and went over toward the front of the building. The +nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with me. The policeman stood at +the door. We went back the same way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was +some difficulty getting you in. + +Mrs. CABELL. I do not know. An elderly man in shirt sleeves, that I +remember. I assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. I don't +really know that to be true. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there police or State police or city police? + +Mrs. CABELL. They were everywhere. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you mean they were checking people going into the +hospital? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. Then as I came in, the policeman escorted me back to +our car. I sat there again, I do not know how much longer I sat, but +somebody brought me a Coca-Cola. We, as you know, had nothing to eat or +drink since coffee at Mr. and Mrs. Eric Jonsson's, where we gathered +before going to Love Field. Then a man came up to me. I have to assume +that he was a Secret Service man. He said, "Are you Mrs. Earle Cabell?" +I said, "Yes." He said, "There are no ladies presently with Mrs. +Kennedy. We feel that it might be nice if you go in." So I handed my +partially drunk Coca-Cola to the driver, and I went in with this man. +Another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this +second time when we got to the door, this man said, "This is Mrs. Earle +Cabell," and we walked right in. + +Mr. HUBERT. He said that to whom? + +Mrs. CABELL. The man at the door. + +Mr. HUBERT. The same man that had been at the door before? + +Mrs. CABELL. I assume it was. There was such a short time that elapsed. +He took me down. You turn to the right as you went in the door down +this very wide hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my +husband coming toward us going out. I looked at him and he said, +"I will be back." So we walked on in to this smaller hallway which +separated the emergency rooms, either side of them. Mrs. Kennedy was +sitting just outside the door of Emergency Room No. 1 in a straight +chair. I walked up to her---- + +Mr. HUBERT. She was alone? + +Mrs. CABELL. She was alone. There were, I am sure, Secret Service men. +There was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting +alone. I walked up to her and I said, "Mrs. Kennedy, I am Elizabeth +Cabell. I wish there was something that I could do to help." And in a +very dazed manner she said, "Yes, I remember you gave me the roses." +And somebody put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a +few moments. And she said, "I would like a cigarette." My purse was +on the floor behind my chair. I turned around to pick up my purse to +give her a cigarette, and when I turned back around, she was walking +into Emergency Room No. 2. I judge that it was next to the President, +the room the President's body was in, and her purse was on a carriage +in that emergency room. She was fumbling in her purse, and I said to +her, "I have a cigarette here for you." It was exactly as though she +had not heard me. She didn't answer me at all, and she kept fumbling +in her purse and finally she came up with a cigarette. Then she turned +to me as though she had never seen me before, but said, "But I don't +have a match." And I said, "I have a match here for you." I lighted her +cigarette and she turned around and walked out of that emergency room. +We went back to the two chairs outside of Emergency Room No. 1 and sat +down. + +Just at that time I looked up and saw a Catholic priest coming toward +us. It was not Father Huber. It was a man I did not recognize. I later +understood he was the Catholic chaplain of the hospital. I am not +sure about that. I got up and walked a few steps to meet him, and I +said, "Father, take my chair by Mrs. Kennedy." Which he did do. In the +meantime, my husband had come back in, and I stepped back where my +husband was standing, and we stood there until the casket was wheeled +out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was any announcement made to Mrs. Kennedy of the death of +her husband? + +Mrs. CABELL. Not while I was in there. I am under the impression--you +see, I was still sitting out in the car when they brought Vice +President, I guess then, and Mrs. Johnson out and put them in the car +and took them away. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the President's death when you went to Mrs. +Kennedy? + +Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts had come back to the car and said, "He +is gone." + +Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that Mrs. Kennedy then knew of the +death of her husband when you first came up to her? + +Mrs. CABELL. That is my impression. We did not discuss it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that there was a telephone call received +by you that was of a threatening nature? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about that, please, ma'am? The time and +so forth? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it was New Year's Eve. Of necessity, the security +had asked us not to be out, that so many people had come in for the +New Year's Day game, that they were uneasy. There was the possibility +that Chief Justice Warren might come. There was the rumor that he might +come. There was the rumor that the President himself might come. We +knew that the President's daughters were here, so they asked us not to +wander around that night. We have spent New Year's night for many years +with a very close group of friends, so we invited them to our home that +night, but we explained to them that early in the evening and under +rather heavy security, we went downtown to the Sheraton Hotel into a +private suite to greet the Under Secretary of Navy and his wife. We +stayed in this group possibly 30 or 40 minutes and then we went back to +our home. At that time security had been lessened in our home. There +were only two men with us at all times then. It had been much heavier +earlier. The men had been in our home so long that they were like +members of the family almost. They knew most of our guests because they +had accompanied us on the Christmas parties and festivities that we +went to. We were never without them. + +We did not drive our own cars for 2 months. So most of these guests +were known to the security officers that were in our home that night. +But I am again hazy on the time. It must have been about 11 o'clock. +I walked back into our bedroom for something, and the phone rang back +there. I picked it up. This man's voice--it was not a kid, it was not +a drunk--said, "Mrs. Cabell?" I said, Yes. He said, "We are coming to +kill that God damn mayor now." And hung up the phone. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, do you have a listed number? + +Mrs. CABELL. An unlisted number. That is what startled us. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is an unlisted number? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it is an unlisted number, and that is what startled +us. I walked out of the bedroom through the living room, through the +dining room, and into the kitchen and caught the eye of one of the +security officers and motioned to him. He followed me back into the +bedroom, and I closed the door and told him what had happened. He +walked straight to the phone and called his superior officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, did this seem to be a local call, or long +distance? + +Mrs. CABELL. I have no way of knowing. When I picked up the phone and +said "Hello," this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." + +Mr. HUBERT. And he said what you have just said, and that is all? + +Mrs. CABELL. He hung up before I did. So Officer Beaty picked up the +phone and called his superior. I had said to him, "Please ask what to +do about our guests." Because there had always been the thinking among +the security officers, the possibility of a bomb being thrown at the +house. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, was your unlisted phone number carefully +guarded or kept? + +Mrs. CABELL. No, no. It was given to our church. It was given to the +press. They all had it. They had to talk to Earle. It was given to some +organizations to which we belonged. The thinking on our part was that +we wanted to be available to responsible people. It was merely the +crank calls that we were trying to avoid after Earle went in office. + +Mr. HUBERT. So it was rather widely disseminated, and I suppose +recorded by those people? + +Mrs. CABELL. Who it had been given to; that's right. So it was not an +impossible number to obtain. It couldn't be in Earle's position. + +Mr. STOREY. (after shortly entering the room). Mr. Hubert, I might say +I had trouble in finding it the one time I wanted to call the mayor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mrs. Cabell, I have nothing more to ask you. If you +have anything you would like to say concerning the subjects we have +covered, or anything else pertinent to the inquiry, we would be glad to +hear from you. + +Mrs. CABELL. I do not know of anything that would be of any help except +that from Earle's experience at Tupinamba, that somebody knew when +those police cars pulled in and out of that driveway. There was always +one facing the street. They were not squad cars. They were cars that +the Special Service men drove. They were Galaxies, different color, but +they all carried the license that people who knew about things like +that could recognize them as being a police car. One evening Chief +Curry called and talked to my husband and said things had been so quiet +that if you and Mrs. Cabell feel all right about it, I am going to +bring the boys in. And my husband said, "Now Chief, that has always +been up to you. Whatever you think, is what we want you to do. Within +30 minutes, I would say, after the security officers and the cars had +gone, a threatening call came through the police switchboard, so within +another 30 minutes the security was back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what that was? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; I cannot give you the date. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know of it? + +Mrs. CABELL. I didn't know it until the next morning. The boys didn't +come in the house that night. Earle didn't know it. We have a very +trusted colored man who has been with us 26 years, and when he used his +own key to come in the house next morning, I said, "Well, Phillip, I +guess you miss our friends." And he said, "Mrs. Cabell, they haven't +gone. They are outside." And I looked out the kitchen window and there +they were. I went out---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know, do you, whether that threatening call made +reference to the fact that the security had been removed? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; I do not. But the thinking on the part of the police +was that somebody was watching that driveway, because the call came in +within 30 minutes after the car had gone. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else that you wish to say? + +Mrs. CABELL. Only that, and days again escape me--I think it was the +day of the President's funeral, my husband was in Washington. This +can be verified, because by that time all of our phone calls were +recorded. The phone rang early one afternoon, and I picked it up, and +this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." I said "Yes." He said, "This is +so-and-so--and the name I did not catch, or recall--said "I am with one +of the news media. I would like to come out for an interview." Or words +to that effect. And I said, "Well, Mr. Cabell is not here. You will +have to talk to him about that." Then he said to me, "How heavily are +you being guarded out there? Do you still have security?" And I don't +know what I said, but I put it off. I passed it off. And by that time +I had motioned to the security man that was in the next room, and he +picked up the receiver, but the man had hung up by that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that your calls were being recorded as early +as the date of the President's funeral? + +Mrs. CABELL. No; earlier. + +Mr. HUBERT. Earlier? + +Mrs. CABELL. Because the telephone men were out there within an hour +after the shooting of Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. They set up a recordation system whereby all calls could be +recorded? + +Mrs. CABELL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that still on at the time of New Year's Eve? + +Mrs. CABELL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was that removed? + +Mrs. CABELL. I can't tell you. Sometime during that 2 months, but I +cannot say when. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you do not think it was on at the time of the New +Year's Eve call? + +Mrs. CABELL. I am sure it wasn't, because the little recording machine, +or whatever it was, had been---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Soundscriber? + +Mrs. CABELL. Had been removed, and I believe I am correct in saying +that that was removed at the time, and I can't give you a date, that +they cut down to only two officers at a time being with us. For a long +time there were two with me and two with Earle and two at the house. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I don't think there was actually any +conversation much before the recordation of your deposition began +between us, but in any case, I think you will agree with me that +nothing was covered during the unrecorded conversation we had that has +not been recorded here? + +Mrs. CABELL. As far as I know; that is true. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, ma'am. + +Mrs. CABELL. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP L. WILLIS + +The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand [standing]? Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WILLIS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take +your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to +it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint +resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's +procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to +have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and +you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available +to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. I assume that +you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney +present, because you are here without one? + +Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. WILLIS. Phillip L. Willis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, sir? + +Mr. WILLIS. 2824 Ava Lane, Dallas 27, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. WILLIS. August 2, 1918. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. WILLIS. Kaufman County, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Texas throughout most of your life? + +Mr. WILLIS. All my life, with the exception of my military service. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived here in Dallas? + +Mr. WILLIS. Since April 1, 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you engaged in, or by whom are you +employed? + +Mr. WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and +I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent +real estate broker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of +the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, at the +time of the assassination; is that correct? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, +and what you did at that time? + +Mr. WILLIS. I had a driver drop my family and I in the parkway so +that we could have a chance to get a good view of the President's +party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. We +were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street +approaching the area on Main, and I stood at the corner of Main and +Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor +one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. +So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and +making the turn onto Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the +corner, you say? + +Mr. WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you saw him---- + +Mr. WILLIS. Across from the county jail on the parkway there near the +esplanade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you saw the motorcade coming down Main Street, did you? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes; we could see it for a block or two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then the motorcade turned onto Houston and you took some +pictures at that time? + +Mr. WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President +approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend +of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in +one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. +Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston +approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran +across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the +curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on +Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in +front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine, on the edge of the +street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 +feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got +the occupants in the center. I was that close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture +which is in the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life magazine in a +picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page 4; +is that correct? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the individual who stands almost directly behind +the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with +a camera? + +Mr. WILLIS. With my camera raised; yes, sir. The little girl in the red +dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The farthest person in the right in the back of that +picture? + +Mr. WILLIS. The farthest person in that picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you stand at that particular spot the entire +time, or did you move down Elm Street? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first +shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, +and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me +in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next +shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the +camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with +the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had +time to react. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have, as I understand it, a series of 12 slides, +which apparently have been prepared by something called Phil Willis +Enterprises, and which I understand is being marketed, at least in the +Dallas area? + +Mr. WILLIS. We haven't done anything with them as yet, but I am the +only one, I am told, who has a complete set of the prints covering the +last 25 seconds of the President's life and the assassination and the +tragedy following. + +I was so shocked I didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. +And the same people who bought those said they would have been +invaluable had I brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to +do that. And later there has been so many requests because of the +historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the +public. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit +No. 1, which I now show you and I suggest to you that it is one of the +pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides. + +Mr. WILLIS. I made that picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You made that picture yourself? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same as slide No. 5? In your series of slides? + +Mr. WILLIS. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made? + +Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first +shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge +under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons Highway sign is a gentleman +who took the last pictures that appeared in Life, and his pictures +showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and +the President, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his +throat. + +This was pointed out to the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of +Investigation. Picture No. 2 will verify that, in Life magazine. You +see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one I have the +front of. And as he approached this same sign in this film, he has +already grabbed his throat. That is verified by that fact. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the pictures on page 4 of the memorial +edition of Life magazine. Picture No. 1 shows you standing, as we have +already indicated, standing back with your camera? + +Mr. WILLIS. Picture 2 shows the President just as the car comes from +behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his +throat at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The sign in question is one that reads "Stemmons Freeway +Keep Right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you +took which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. WILLIS. The only one in that vicinity. It has to be the same one. +You will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the +street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the +other way when I have the picture in question here from the rear. + +That same picture from the other side of the street in Life shows he +has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in +question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go through that again. I didn't understand it. Let me +remind you of this. When you mention a picture, let's try and refer +to them by numbers, because if you do that, I won't have to repeat +it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. +You were making a point just a minute ago about something that I +didn't understand. You were referring to some of the pictures in Life +magazine, and also to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is the picture you +took. + +Mr. WILLIS. All right, sir, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of +the picture I took, shows the President's car had proceeded almost past +the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. Referring back to panel No. 2 +of the Life Memorial Edition of Life magazine on page 4, it shows that +Mrs. Kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the President has already +grabbed his throat. That picture shows that his car has not passed the +Stemmons sign completely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. WILLIS. Referring back to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I took, the +President's car in fact has passed the Stemmons sign, and he has turned +the opposite direction from the previous picture that I took close up, +and it proves without question that at this instant the President had +been hit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other +picture that you took close up. Is that included in your set of slides +here? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; it is slide No. 4, which you see doesn't include +the front or the rear of the President's car, but the center. That is +proving how close it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Picture No. 4 in your group of slides was taken shortly +before picture No. 5 was taken, is that right? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; not more than 3 seconds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which picture you were taking or you took at +the time that is shown here in panel No. 1 of this memorial edition of +Life magazine? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide No. 4, the +closeup of the President directly in front of the Texas School Book +Depository. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now from the time that you took No. 4, and when you took +No. 4, you were standing as shown in picture No. 1 in Life magazine? + +Mr. WILLIS. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do before you took No. 5, which we have +marked here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Did you move down the street, or +were you standing in the same place, or do you remember? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this +importance, I moved down the street slightly to try to get another +view, and, of course, I had the camera looking through the viewfinder +to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. I +moved as far as I could within that 3 seconds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not able to tell us exactly where you were +when you took the picture that we have here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1, +but it was a little bit farther on down Elm Street, still on the grassy +area described by Elm and Main Street; is that correct? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I can verify that where I was going back to Life +magazine again, because this picture No. 2 on page 4 of the John F. +Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life, there is a tree in the background. +The only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. +And the shadow of that tree is shown in slide No. 5 that I took, which +would show my position. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I see you would have to study just from where the +sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and +we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the +street? + +Mr. WILLIS. Off the record. Let me say this. You see in No. 1 shot +where I am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. +This little bush--there is the shadow from the tree. This tree is on +the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow +in that picture. So you see that I did move down approximately this far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Now, you are certain that the first shot was +fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time +you took the picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1; is that +right? + +Mr. WILLIS. I am positive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing the shot? + +Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. I, having been in World War II, and being +a deer hunter hobbyist, I would recognize a high-powered rifle +immediately. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle? + +Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard it just about the time you took the picture +that has been marked? + +Mr. WILLIS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked +Hudson Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis? + +Mr. WILLIS. Three shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the +picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other +pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately +about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running +along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned +about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't +hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew +something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like +a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit +something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like +that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I +saw they were heading back toward their mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was she? + +Mr. WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete +structure. How do you refer to that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection +of Main Street and Houston Street? + +Mr. WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; +that is the one across the street--no; here she was. She was in between +Main, and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only +a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from +where the President was hit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete +structure on Dealey Plaza? + +Mr. WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an +opening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass? + +Mr. WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had +a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that +time--at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block +her vision. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in +the head? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was +more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute +the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear +me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being +directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear +to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the +street where the building was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building +at the time when you heard the shots? + +Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that? + +Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure? + +Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came +from high up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that? + +Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was +12:33 when I looked up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository? + +Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it +alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, +it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide +on No. 12. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not actually observe the President at the time +he was hit in the head? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I was just taking a picture of him, and the +presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. +But my little daughter ran back and said, "Oh, Daddy, they have shot +our President. His whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? Is this the girl that is here today? + +Mr. WILLIS. The little one was the one that made that remark. My +youngest daughter, Rosemary. The one that is with me today also saw it, +and she went back and told her mother the same thing. And her mother +said, "Yes; I saw it." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the +President's car as it went down Elm Street? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three +shots fired? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that the President had been hit by the +first shot? + +Mr. WILLIS. I didn't really know, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? +You couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the +second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. +When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and +looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and +facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, +her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less +faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me +to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause +me to wonder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is +that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, +or which way? + +Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight +ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of +the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right +toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to +wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had +about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides +as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Mr. +Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing +for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about +when we refer to this exhibit. + +(Mr. Willis marks initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have already established that the picture that has +been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative +or from slide No. 5 on Willis' Exhibit No. 1; is that correct? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad +tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the +time the President was shot? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there +on those railroad tracks? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that +there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did see policemen up there? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among +the spectators. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how many spectators would you say were up there? +Was there a big crowd? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But +I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired +from that direction? + +Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people +falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete +wall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Across the street from Elm Street? + +Mr. WILLIS. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the +School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, +and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, +evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I +started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly +across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely +positive about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots? + +Mr. WILLIS. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the +fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that +building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I notice. + +Mr. WILLIS. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my +own mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these +pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I +should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about. + +Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took +that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt +before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which +shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of +the presidential car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is that far in the background, way in the back of +the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street? + +Mr. WILLIS. Yes; that would be the background. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or +four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in +while you are still here. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LINDA KAY WILLIS + +The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear +you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are +about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Miss WILLIS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and +he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School +Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted +to ask you two or three questions about that. + +First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please? + +Miss WILLIS. Linda Kay Willis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? + +Miss WILLIS. I will be 15, July 29. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the +School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of +the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that +correct? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be +shots, as the motorcade came past you there? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and +then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, +well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed +his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell +where the second shot went. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm +Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street +from the School Book Depository Building? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or +did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from +there? + +Miss WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where +Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons +Freeway"? + +Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I +wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot +came. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm +Street? + +Miss WILLIS. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the +courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it +turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with +the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where +the Stemmons sign is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the President get hit in the head? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually saw the President get hit that way? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far away would you say that you were when you saw +that? + +Miss WILLIS. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. +Maybe not quite that far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 25 feet or so? + +Miss WILLIS. About that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did +you hear any more shots after that? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then +he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot +went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in +the head. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You only heard three shots altogether? + +Miss WILLIS. Yes; that was it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got +hit in the head? + +Miss WILLIS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots +right away? + +Miss WILLIS. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's +probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. +Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then +when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew +he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard +any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't +hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. +Thank you very much. + +Miss WILLIS. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM + +The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1364, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly +swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. +I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission +investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been +authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to +authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, +dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I +think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission +because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; +is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the +Kennedys--President Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer +Tippit? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, +I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some +questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you +appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony +before the Commission. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the +question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from +New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, +"Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf +of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball +asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the +mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball +asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" +And then you answered, No, sir." + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and +Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the +telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to +Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in +here, I wouldn't know who he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you +also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never +talked to him over the telephone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you +were in Washington, before today? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me +they were reporters, came to my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to +him yourself? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I never even talked to her even. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a +tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation +between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript +which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No. 1---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me tell you now---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make +arrangements--I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this +afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have +the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so +you can tell us whether or not that is your voice? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service +bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let +me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--I +was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this +brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore +mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he +told me he was from the city. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told +me he was--now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was +Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are +familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the +police department of the city of Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a +number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at +your office where you worked; were you working? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this +office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a +number as that that you know of? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called +this number here, Matthew 7-6797. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I +worked at was Riverside 8. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret +Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to +this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to +know that. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he +was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the +Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You +see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the +Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be +within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. All right. + +(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m., +as follows:) + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and +he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we +will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the +U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, +Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not +this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the +telephone some time ago? + +The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the +record here? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, +I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone +conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum +consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau +of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is +not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this. + +(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the +telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, +Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, +the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record +here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began +indicating her reactions.) + +"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your +affidavit which you gave the police on that date. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would +be good enough to talk to me?" + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape +recorder, Mrs. Markham. + +John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to +indicate by that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked +to no woman or no man like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you +following it along, Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and +exact transcript of the recording? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it +says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and +those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I +got--nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you +recognize your voice here on the tape. + +"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell +you that." I don't have the time to. + +"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read +where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and +had bushy hair. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that. + +"Mr. LANE. You did not say that? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short. + +"Mr. LANE. He was short? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy. + +"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy. + +"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather +bushy kind of hair?" + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy. + +"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone. + +"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to +see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did +they bring you down to look at him? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup. + +"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him. + +"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone +point him out to you at that time as the man? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup? + +"Mr. LANE. Yes. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not. + +"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing. + +"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot +Officer Tippit? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket. + +"Mr. LANE. Yes. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers. + +"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh. + +"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not. + +"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was +closed--pretty close too. + +"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates +the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned +on it and placed his arms up against the car. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window. + +"Mr. LANE. In the window? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all. + +"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop. + +"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it. + +"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever +it was, walked over to the car? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car. + +"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window. + +"Mr. LANE. He did what? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window. + +"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh. + +"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir? + +"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit. + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been. + +"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, +because, you see, he leaned over in the window. + +"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station +when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder. + +"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy +side and had slightly bushy hair? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that. + +"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing. + +"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like +that? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your +affidavit, right? + +"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point. + +Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down. + +The REPORTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do +you mean by that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never +on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me +he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department +of the city hall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with +somebody? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police +department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little +more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that +said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone +calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the +police department? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a +call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had +called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them +that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told +me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had +to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, +and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this +man. Now, he told me that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is +asking you what the police did. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your +affidavit. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a +man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the +city hall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked +to? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on +this tape recording is your voice? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the +first time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's +voice on the tape now is your voice? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city +police. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he +said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you +tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this +tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over +to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this +man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the +officer roll the window down. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you +tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the +description of the man who shot Tippit?" + +You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was +asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with +me? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and +he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my +work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in +this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that +he was from the police department; is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just +like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come +down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this +lady never talked to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the +one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the +long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you +to the telephone and a man answered the telephone. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the +telephone and he told you that he was from the police department? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never +had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in +this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the +beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he +was from the police department when he called? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer +Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that +you want me to look at? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show +you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my +daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time +and I don't know what it even means. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a +piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the +Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, +1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in +Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas +21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham +and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday +or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the +opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually +profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr." + +We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit +No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials +on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't +have any trouble identifying it in the future. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials. + +(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It +gives a post office box is all I saw. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or +anything like that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs--you never know who +it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI +9-3195; did you notice that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I +don't know, but I called. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what +you think about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, +apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows: + +"Dear Mrs. Markham: + +"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report +on the findings of the Warren Commission. + +"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence +of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses +who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request +your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your +presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings +in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and +misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the +other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction +and will contact you personally concerning our request. + +"I look forward to talking with you. + +"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. +Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319." + +When did you receive this? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well---- + +Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she +called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is +a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. +They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses +and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and +told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, +was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, +but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that +right, as he indicated? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever +you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you +think it would be all right? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any +advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. +I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general +counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he +thinks you should do. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward. + +Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and +do that or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will +handle that aspect of it. + +Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened +to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to +about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened +to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do +anything like that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote Markham down there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't +have any other questions at this time. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It +never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I +was going to get fired if I didn't get back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about +it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that +[referring to the telegram]. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD BAKER + +The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and +please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are +about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. BAKER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take +your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to +it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint +resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, +you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to +3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions +that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I +presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask +you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are +willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963? + +Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else? + +Mrs. BAKER. That's me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. +Donald S. Baker? + +Mrs. BAKER. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November +24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but +you had already been married at that time; is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. I married this year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964? + +Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley +on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the +assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is +that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Last year? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to +see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him +around the building? + +Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at +all? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in +connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what +you did? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at +approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front +of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President +waved and he got down---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the +motorcade came along? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what +you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front +of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call +it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in +front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not? + +Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in +front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with +some trees on it; is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a +triangular plot of grass. + +Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of +Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in +the street--Elm Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs +down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street +that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, +an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge +and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass. + +Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into +Stemmons Expressway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, +is that Main Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were +standing? + +Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we +were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the +building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas +School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that +the Texas School Book Depository is located? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I +thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the +pavement. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is +that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise +came from when you first heard it? + +Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there +where he was--where the President's car was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time +you heard the first noise? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it +had gone when you heard the first shot? + +Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the +car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President? + +Mrs. BAKER. Not too well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had +already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard +the first shot; is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture +there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, +which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other +pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show +you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons +Freeway, Keep Right." + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign? + +Mrs. BAKER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing? + +Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were +stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, +I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the +bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther +out in the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this +thing hit the street near the sign? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. +354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along +the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. +Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing +going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little +grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the +Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by +this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward +the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that +looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me. + +Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there. + +Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first +sign? + +Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit +the street--what did it look like when you saw it? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked +just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a +firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to +get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it +were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the +sign. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or +somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you +saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near +the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on +the opposite side of the street; is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was? + +Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't +be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in +there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that +day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane? + +Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that +correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in +relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, +behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car? + +Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit +in the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand +side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just +immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right. + +Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? + +Mrs. BAKER. Three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots? + +Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming +from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there +directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the +underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that +runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus +train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the +plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind +there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and +we didn't see anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area +that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the +Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what +you mean? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street +that runs in front of the School Book Depository? + +Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the +triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running +down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside +the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; +is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see +anybody at all? + +Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around +the tracks working. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been +the assassin? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from +reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears +that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository +Building; is that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard +at the time? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it +didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come +from the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository +Building at all while you were standing there? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the +windows in that building? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you +gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some +man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you +came up and said he saw everything; is that so? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen? + +Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he +came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have +been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that +afternoon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all +this? + +Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission +Exhibit No. 354. + +Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular +spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from +the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit +No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had +been sitting? + +Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up +real high--I presume he was up there on top. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward +the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and +Commerce all come together? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps +the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from +the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see +these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down +here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually +go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce. + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or +did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the +Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza? + +Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't +sound like it was too far off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly +from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that +right? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot +you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out +the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this +object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. +Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, +if we can. + +Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I +guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle +around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository +Building. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere? + +Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm +Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm +Street toward the Dealey Plaza. + +Mrs. BAKER. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to +be another tree just down from the wall. + +Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign. + +Mrs. BAKER. I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the +corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository +Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it +hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and +I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it +just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of +our record? + +Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell +from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the +spot where the bullet hit? + +Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the +bullet hit? + +Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but +it was right in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No. +1, starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there +and there is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there +are two cars immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a +convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that +right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere +behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is +that right? + +Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area +and the trees that lie between Elm Street and the little street that +runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository, doesn't it? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, +where that thing might have hit the street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is. + +Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here +somewhere in this picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here? + +Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think it might +have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a +concrete divider somewhere here on Elm Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and +then there are concrete dividers here between Elm Street and Main +Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at Houston Street, +there is a curb on the side of Elm Street and that's all? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from Houston Street and go +right on down Elm Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the +second shot; is that correct? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that? + +Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we marked, +we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near the first +sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple +underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well, it is +very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 +was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from +the side of Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not +be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in +the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main +Street and Elm Street, then the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. +1 would be too far down toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right +place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, +if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm +Street and Main Street, this "X" is very close to the Triple Underpass. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the +street, did you? + +Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the Texas +School Book Depository Building--near the first sign? + +Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that +now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer +to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the +left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from +the plaza. + +Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these +were the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were +four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here +because there must have been another sign closer up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the +time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are +some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture +and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street +here. + +Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign. + +Mrs. BAKER. This one over here--the steps are already here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in Hudson +Exhibit No. 1 and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the +front left of Baker Exhibit No. 1. + +Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is actually in the +wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should +be further back on up here. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the School Book +Depository Building, and actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. +354, you can see the steps coming right down to Elm Street. + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, +and I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left +front foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1. + +Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and I +don't know--the sign would be here, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left +front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward +the Triple Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the +right-hand side of Elm Street? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you +saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a +bullet, it would have been the first shot? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the Texas +School Book Depository Building that day that you think might have +anything to do with the assassination? + +Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone +passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street +over in this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance +pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. This was +before the motorcade ever got to Houston Street--I would say onto Elm +Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this +ambulance come and pick up this person? + +Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge--5 minutes--about 5 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes +before the Presidential motorcade came? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you +remember? + +Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with +daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and +if he had to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I +couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's +when I had to be there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any +time? + +Mrs. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your +attention to a man standing in the doorway of the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him? + +Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the +picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway +of the building--of the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like +to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't +asked you, I have no other questions at this point. + +Mrs. BAKER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS + +The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am +an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your +testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by +President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the +Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present +if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all +right. You are entitled to 3 days' notice and you may actually have +gotten 3 days' notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared +to go ahead, since you are here? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days' notice +because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an +additional week, so I had plenty of time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? + +Mr. ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they +use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a +news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? + +Mr. ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Approximately 26-1/2 Years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and +have a little experience in the area of photographic work? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I would assume so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir? + +Mr. ALTGENS. April 28, 1919. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas? + +Mr. ALTGENS. All except my service connected time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you +were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that +correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the +taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what +happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of +November the 22d? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I +arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 +a.m. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad +tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ALTGENS. My original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of +the caravan with the Dallas skyline in the background and the triple +overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when +I arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two +uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me +and asked me if I was a railroad employee and I told him, "No," and +I showed him my press tag and told him I had a Department of Public +Safety ID card showing I was connected with the AP--Associated Press, +and he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but this is private property. It belongs +to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this +property." And, I explained to him that this was a public event and I +thought I would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he +says, "No. This is private property and no one but railroad personnel +are permitted in this area." + +This is a little extraneous but I wanted to point this out, and I said, +"Well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this +area because I see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and I +see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on Stemmons," +and he said, "Yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." So, +then, I had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so +I proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is +just behind the Book Depository Building and proceeded on down to Elm +to the corner of Elm and Houston, crossed Elm going--is that east or +south--I guess it is south on Houston. Yes; south on Houston over to +Main and Houston. That seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make +any pictures. Then I could, by advance planning, get away from that +spot after I had made a picture or two and run across the Dealey Plaza +and catch the caravan again down on Elm as it proceeded toward the +triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my +planning. + +Well, I was at that site when the Presidential caravan arrived at that +intersection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That intersection being the intersection of Houston and +Elm Streets? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Houston and Main. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Houston and Main? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Houston and Main. When the caravan reached Houston +and Main I made at least one shot--one picture--I don't have the roll +of film with me now so I don't know exactly, but I know I had made an +additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down Main Street +prior to that, but I got the one picture with the President waving +into the camera. Mrs. Kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as I +got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it +off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and I did not get her +looking into the camera, but I got the Governor and Mrs. Connally and +the President with the President waving into the camera. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was as they turned? + +Mr. ALTGENS. This was as they turned into the sunlight. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Turning into Houston Street; is that right? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Turning right--headed toward the Book Depository Building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. + +Mr. ALTGENS. I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra +lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in +front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one +picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, +you were along Elm Street; is that correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I ran across and reached up into--well, the curb +area on the west side of Elm Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you +exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that +would be of any help to you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you +Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been +discussing. + +Mr. ALTGENS. This is the Book Depository Building, correct? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.) + +Mr. ALTGENS. This would put me at approximately this area here, +which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the +head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the +side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street +which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I that approximately where you were standing? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning +from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across +this Dealey Plaza? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Down this way; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Along the lawn part. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And at that point did you take another picture? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that +sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently +my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the +shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that +much of course--at that time I figured it was nothing more than a +firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of +such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you +were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the +car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who +counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of +pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for +the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. +There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the +head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree +of certainty. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the +damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware +at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I +looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over +here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over here," you indicate what? + +Mr. ALTGENS. The left side of the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would be approximately the intersection of Elm +Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas +School Book Depository Building; isn't that right? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were +a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of +accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any +firearms, so I looked back up in this area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of +Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from +behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as +he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if +at the time--well, he was in a position--sort of immobile. He wasn't +upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just +lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something +like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on +down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head +in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated +to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the +fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on +the left side--all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or +face--suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, +meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time +did I know for certain where the shot came from. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you didn't see who fired it? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential +car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me +back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the +President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good +closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that +it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, +and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far +as I got with my camera. + +Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President +had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I +heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration +to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I +saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping +to make. + +The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I +stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret +Service man stepped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went +to Mrs. Kennedy's aid and then after that I immediately crossed the +street and once again I was looking to see if I could find anything in +this area of Elm and Houston Streets that would suggest to me where the +shot came from. + +Moreover, I was interested in knowing whether or not somebody else had +been struck by a bullet or one of the bullets in this area. I saw that +no one else had been hit. I did notice after I got on this side of the +street, that would be on the opposite side of the Presidential car from +where I was standing originally, which would be the left side of the +car from where I was standing--looking up toward the building--I saw +people looking out of windows. I saw a couple of Negroes looking out of +a window which I later learned was the floor below where the gun--where +the sniper's nest was supposed to have been, but it didn't register +on me at the time that they were looking from an area that the bullet +might have come from. There was utter confusion at the time I crossed +the street. The Secret Service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns +that went racing up this little incline and I thought---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you speak of "little incline" that means the +area--the little incline on the grassy area here by this concrete +structure across Elm Street toward the School Book Depository Building, +is that part of Dealey Plaza too over in here, this concrete structure, +or is Dealey Plaza only the name ascribed to this area here between Elm +Street and Commerce Street? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I really don't know, sir--I don't know whether this is +considered part of the Dealey Plaza or whether this is just something +extra as you might have for dressing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The part we are referring to that we are not just sure if +it is a part of Dealey Plaza lies between Elm Street and the railroad +tracks that run behind it over here and from the railroad tracks that +go over the triple underpass, and this little grassy area that you +have just mentioned is just between the area formed by Elm Street and +the street that runs directly in front of the School Book Depository +Building; is that correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +I started up the incline with--or, after the officers, because they +were moving well ahead of me and I was moving behind them thinking +perhaps if they had the assassin cornered I wanted a picture, but +before I had gotten over one-quarter of the way up the incline, I met +the officers coming back and I presumed that they were just chasing +shadows, so to speak, because there was no assassin in the area +apparently, but I didn't learn the location of the sniper's nest until +I was en route out to Parkland Hospital to continue my assignment and I +heard it on the radio, that the assassin's nest was in the sixth floor +window of the Book Depository Building. + +After that I made a good look through this area to see that no one +else had been hit. I noticed the couple that were on the ground over +here with their children, I saw them when they went down and they were +in the area and laid there some time after the Presidential car had +disappeared. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They threw themselves on the ground in this grassy area +that I have just described previously where you ran across after this +last shot? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; but they were not hit. I looked at them and they +weren't hit by a bullet, so I took another long look around before I +started my dash back to the office, and as it turned out, my report was +the first that our service had on the assassination and my pictures +were the only pictures we had available for a period of about 24 hours. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 203 and I ask you if that is not the first picture that you +took after you left the intersection of Main and Houston and crossed +Dealey Plaza and stood on the side of Elm Street across from the Texas +School Book Depository Book Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that as the picture which you took? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the individuals depicted in that +picture? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously, I believe, that the first shot +that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the +picture, is that right? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was +simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just +the way it happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you first heard this shot, did you see any reaction +either on the part of the President or anyone else that indicated they +might have been hit by this shot? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; and as a matter of fact, I did not know that +Governor Connally had been hit until one of our reporters got the +information out at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As the Presidential car went down Elm Street, did you +observe Governor Connally's movements at all, did you see what he was +doing? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; my attention was primarily on the President and +Mrs. Kennedy and I just wasn't paying too much attention about the +other people in the car after what I saw happen. Of course, my concern +was about the President and I just wasn't paying too much attention to +others in the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were +no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which +you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203; +is that correct? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I did not--you see--all of these shots sounded +the same. If you heard one you would recognize the other shots and +these were all the same. It was a pop that I don't believe I could +identify it any other way than as a firecracker and this particular +picture was made at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by +me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't think that there could have been any other +shots fired prior to that time that you wouldn't have heard, you were +standing right there and you would have heard them, would you not? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sure I would have--yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified that you were standing perhaps no +more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that +you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the +President was hit in the head? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how many shots there +were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were +supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wouldn't want to say--I don't want to guess, +because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined +to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I +think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot--I +can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least +one shot in between. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At least one? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is +possible there might have been another one--I don't really know, but +two, I can really account for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that's the first one and the last one? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection as to the spacing of these +shots? + +Mr. ALTGENS. They seemed to be at almost regular intervals and they +were quick. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and +the last shot? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, let's see--I would have to figure it out on a speed +basis because they were going at approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour +downhill and I would say that all the shots were fired within the space +of less than 30 seconds. That's an estimate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far away was the Presidential car when you took the +picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203--you must have +had your camera focused? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was about 30 feet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you +at No. 3 on that picture. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear +to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission +Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at +that time--I'm not saying it wasn't--I mean, just what does it look +like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is--I want to +know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is +Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head +hit, did you move down the street at all? + +Mr. ALTGENS. May I ask you a question in return? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. + +Mr. ALTGENS. I have no reason to doubt that by relating other +testimony, that you have come up with this figure 1 as being an exact +location as to when the Presidential car was struck by the bullet--the +first bullet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, no; not at all. These figures numbers 1, 2, and 3 +don't indicate where the shots hit. They are for entirely different +purposes. Figure No. 1 on this picture, Commission Exhibit No. 354, +indicates where someone was standing--that's all that indicates. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I will have to ask you this question, then, sir, +because as you will know by looking at this picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 203? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Excuse me--picture 203--there is a tree way behind the +Presidential car. Now, figure 1 is placed up in front of this tree, +which means that figure 1 would have been behind the car at the time +the President received the first shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; referring to Exhibit No. 354. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, that has no significance because these numbers +have nothing to do with the place where the car was when the President +was hit. + +Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sorry--I just misinterpreted it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I can see why you could assume that, because as you look +here at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you see 1, 2, 3, and 4 spaced down +Elm Street and you did infer that that's the location the President's +car was when it was hit. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which is not right because those numbers do not indicate +that in any way whatsoever--they are not related to that notion at all. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved +at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and +back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either +side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but +if you will look at this picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit No. 203. + +Mr. ALTGENS. You will see by then referring to picture No. 354, that +the Presidential car was well down Elm Street in front of a tree that +is located in a grassy area which is just off of Elm Street and just +off of the street that runs down in front of the Book Depository +Building, which would indicate that the point at which he was struck, +the location of the car, would be approximately 30 feet in front of the +position from which I made this picture. Does that make sense? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at +a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to +a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy +area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the +Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. +Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took +Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot +was fired? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot +was fired. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But during that period of time the car moved much more +than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved +quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time +the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 +understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's +car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the +car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved +yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside +the President's car when he was hit in the head. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I was about 15 feet from it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it was almost directly in front of you as it went +down the street; isn't that right? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony +the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time +you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, +and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the +last shot was fired? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing +photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and +while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is +a plus or minus area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure +that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured +on my camera. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away? + +Mr. ALTGENS. But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's +exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my +camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 16 +feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 +feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, +if you will let me say something further here about this picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, +this approximate position where I was standing and step off the +distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some +marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or +measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the +markings on my camera. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The important thing is--it's not all that important +as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the +picture--the thing that I want to establish is that you are absolutely +sure that you took Exhibit No. 203 at about the time the first shot was +fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind that there were +no shots fired after you saw the President hit in the head. + +Mr. ALTGENS. That is correct; in both cases. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is clear from your testimony that the third +shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot +and the fourth shot, but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did +strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was +made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's +not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to +say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, what were you going to suggest--go ahead. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of +course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of +shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't +be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough +damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew +he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, +because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious +conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the +President was struck in the head. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, of course, you are aware of the fact that there is +an individual portrayed in Exhibit No. 203, standing right in the door +of the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just to the right of the No. A in the picture? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are aware that he has been thought to resemble Lee +Harvey Oswald by certain people and it has been my understanding that +a newspaper reporter by the name of Bonafede called you and discussed +this picture with you? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to whether or not that man +might be Lee Oswald or some other man? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I have never seen the man before in my life and +have seen no one that looks like him since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this newspaper reporter tell you that it was Oswald, +or that it was somebody else--did you have any conversations with him +about that? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Oh, yes, sir; as a matter of fact I had two calls from +him. I never met the man Bonafede, personally, but I had two calls +from him and he indicated to me he was writing a story around this +picture which showed this controversial figure standing in the +doorway of picture No. 203. He was asking me if I knew him, if I had +any information that I might be able to give him in connection with +this, inasmuch as he was doing a story on it, and naturally I had no +information to give him in that connection, but I don't know the man +and I have never had an assignment down at the bookstore before or +after the shooting so I have had no occasion to meet anyone down there +in the building either before or after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this +point, Mr. Altgens. Can you think of anything else you think might +be significant--let me ask you this--while you were standing there +alongside of Elm Street and you heard this noise that you later deduced +was a shot, after that time did you have any occasion to look up at the +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything up there? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I said earlier--when I crossed the street, my +vision prior to that was sort of obstructed because of the growth of +trees in that area and me being down in a low spot, I couldn't see the +whole building too well, but after crossing the street, I looked up to +that building as well as the other buildings back on Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I remember you testified about that and you said you +saw those two Negroes? + +Mr. ALTGENS. I saw the two Negroes but I at that time lent no +significance to that until I later heard where the shots were coming +from and also since that time I have heard other people say they saw +them too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which window they were in, approximately, +where on the fifth floor? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, they looked to me to be on the floor below, but +they were leaning out as though they were looking for something. I +do remember that, but since they had nothing in their hands I didn't +feel that the shot was coming from their particular area. I saw no +rifle at any time although I was looking for one and I reported it +to my Associated Press that the President was apparently shot by a +high-powered rifle, that's the way we carried it on the wire--credited +to my statement. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw these Negroes up there, were they in the +center of the building or toward the part of the building closer to the +triple underpass or toward Houston Street, or just where were they on +the face here of the School Book Depository Building as it faces out on +Elm Street? And Main Street? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I recall, they were down here close to Houston +Street. They weren't directly under the window that was later described +as being the area of the assassin's nest, but I think they were in a +pair of windows that was maybe the next set of windows over, which was +a floor below. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over," you mean down towards the triple +underpass? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that they were closer to the corner of the building +that is near the intersection of Elm and Houston than they were towards +the triple underpass end of the building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; there were also a number of people looking out of--I +believe this building here [indicating on photograph]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the building immediately across Houston Street +from the School Book Depository? + +Mr. ALTGENS. But--they were scattered and once again, I couldn't see +anything over there that suggested to me that they might have a rifle, +and, of course, the buildings here which are the county records and +courthouse buildings--those windows--I think had nobody in them because +I believe they are closed and locked. I'm not real certain of that, but +I don't recall seeing anyone at those windows over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicate then the building that it catercornered +across the street on Houston Street toward Main Street from the School +Book Depository? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the intersection of Houston Street and Elm as it +comes down and goes past the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after you went back up here and to the +intersection on Elm and Houston and after the motorcade came, did you +have occasion to look down toward the railroad tracks going across the +triple underpass? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody down there? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; as a matter of fact--let me go back to my +position at Houston and Main. I was at that intersection approximately +at 11:30, which meant I had close to an hour wait before the caravan +was due in that area, and along about noon--of course, there were some +other things that happened--there was a man who had an epileptic fit +along about that area there, a young fellow approximately 19 or 20 +years old, and I was standing over here at the intersection next to a +sergeant's motorcycle--it was a tricycle motorcycle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was the intersection of Main and Houston that you +were standing near? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and the time was approximately 12:15, I would +imagine--I say 12:15 and as I relate the events you will see why I say +that, because this sergeant at the motorcycle called for an ambulance +and an ambulance came and picked the man up and as the ambulance was +leaving through the triple overpass, underneath the triple overpass, I +saw the Presidential caravan, the red lights and so on that lead the +caravan, coming on to Main Street off of Harwood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Further up Main Street from where you were standing? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; clear up at the other end of town because Main +Street goes uphill and that made it easy for me to spot the red lights +indicating the Presidential caravan then was starting down Main Street, +and along about the time the sergeant called for the ambulance, I was +looking back up here at the triple overpass and I remarked to the +sergeant, I said, "Look at all those people up there on the triple +overpass." I would estimate about a dozen were up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the railroad tracks immediately over Elm--immediately +over the triple underpass? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and I said, "I wonder what the heck all those +people are doing up there when they wouldn't let me up there to make +pictures?" And he said, "Well, I suppose they are railroad people." I +said, "Well, if they are permitted up there, it seems like they would +let me up there just to make a picture." He said, "Well, you know we've +got our orders too." So, I just dropped it at that time, but there were +at that time--now, this was prior to the Presidential arrival in the +Main-Houston Street area that I noticed these people up here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Up on the triple underpass? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony +down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm +Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was +shot--the car passed in front of me--I stepped into the curb area and +made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of +Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the +triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice whether there were still people on it at +that time? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; there were people up on it and I looked in that +direction, but not for a firearm--I didn't really expect any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why was that? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Because as I said before--the way the bullet impact hit +the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in +order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to +find anything up in that area, so that is why I was concentrating my +observation back in this part, back in the Main--excuse me--back in the +Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see anybody standing on the overpass with +a firearm of any kind? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Altgens, +unless you can think of something else that you think would be +significant that I haven't thought to ask you about, I think we can +terminate the deposition. + +Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I can't think of anything--it seems like we have +covered it pretty well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in. + +Mr. ALTGENS. You are welcome, sir--I was glad to do it and I hope that +whatever I've had to say will be of some help. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think it will. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Let me tell you this off the record, because it doesn't +matter, but you notice Mr. Switzer, the FBI agent that came out--he and +his partner--and talked with me, he brought up this Bonafede to me--the +name and then he asked me if I knew somebody else, a woman columnist in +a Chicago newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? + +Mr. ALTGENS. And then showed me a clipping where she too had referred +to me in the taking of a picture and I also received a telephone call +from a John Gold who is, I guess, a correspondent connected with the +London Daily News. I got a call from him on the Thursday night about 11 +or 11:30 at night, asking me what that story was all about because---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Magy Daley story or the Bonafede story? + +Mr. ALTGENS. No; this was the Bonafede story, because they had put it +on television--as a teaser to sell publications and the public on the +upcoming Sunday--the Sunday publication. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the New York Tribune. + +Mr. ALTGENS. And gee, I didn't know what to tell the guy because I +didn't know Bonafede had written, but Bonafede talked with me. I asked +him and I said, "Are you going to quote me on anything I say?" And, he +says, "Well, if I do quote you, I'll call you back and ask you for your +permission," and I said, Swell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did quote you and he didn't call you back? + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I got a copy of the thing--I didn't gather from +the article he was quoting me on anything in particular other than to +say that I was a witness and I hadn't been called to testify before +the Commission or questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service, but I +don't think that he really tied any information to me in the course of +writing the story, but it was real strange the way the thing unfolded. +I had tried previously to get my bureau chief to give me permission to +notify the Warren Commission or someone to let them know I had been in +the area, not that my testimony would be of much value, but still if it +could be of just a little bit of help I wanted to do what I thought was +right, and my boss never got permission for me to do that, and that's +why I never did step forward, because I had no authority. Really, I +didn't feel that I could act on my own. I wanted to wait until someone +gave me authority to do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your testimony has been helpful to the extent that +it helps to establish the timing of the shots and I'm glad you gave it +to us. + +Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wish I had been able to give this information to +you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because 6 months or so +later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and I hate to +see it that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much for coming. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES + +The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 2 p.m., on July 23, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HOLMES. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you have previously been examined by +one of the attorneys on the staff, and I assume they advised you of the +basis on which we are conducting the examination and the rights that +you have in the situation, so I won't bother to go through that again. + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the chief postal inspector? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; it is just postal inspector. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Stationed with the post office here in Dallas; is that +correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I just have a few questions that I wanted to ask you +that have come up since we took your testimony the last time. One of +the things I would like to know about, if you have any information on +it, is how long it ordinarily takes a parcel post shipment to come to +Dallas from Chicago. + +Mr. HOLMES. It would depend on the time of day it was mailed, and +whether it was mailed just prior to the next most expeditious dispatch. +But I would say certainly not over, well, it would be in Dallas the +next day. But whether it would get to a box--that's right, it would be +available at his box--should be the next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, this question relates specifically to the +shipment of the rifle. + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Shipped from Chicago and addressed to Mr. Hidell at Post +Office Box 2915 here in Dallas, and you say that it generally would +have been available at the post office here in Dallas the day following +its delivery to the post office in Chicago? + +Mr. HOLMES. I have no idea when it was mailed there, but it should +have been available here the next day. If it were to be delivered to a +street address, it would be the second day, because it would not make +morning delivery. But to a post office box, he should have. Of course, +he had told me he didn't come to that box too regularly, so there is no +assurance of when it was picked up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as the possibility is concerned, it would have +been available here at the post office box the following morning from +Chicago? + +Mr. HOLMES. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After it has been received here in Dallas, as I +understand the procedure, a notice would be put in the post office box +indicating that a package was being held there in the post office; is +that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. There is a regular card, when the package is too large to +go in the box, or if it is c.o.d., or insured, or registered. However, +this was an ordinary parcel. It was not insured or c.o.d. There would +be a card for him put in the box, and he would have to pick it up at a +window. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about as far as Los Angeles is concerned, from Los +Angeles to Dallas? How long would it take a parcel post to reach Dallas +from Los Angeles? + +Mr. HOLMES. At least 2 days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it possibly be longer than 2 days? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much longer, do you think? How about on the average, +do you have any idea? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; it depends on the time of mailing. It is 2 days' +train run from Los Angeles here, and if it happens to catch an early +dispatch, it would be in here the morning of the third day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From Chicago it is only a 1-day train run, is that +correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be here, if it had an early dispatch, on the +morning of the following day? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is that an application for a post office +box comes in three separate parts. Do you have---- + +(Mr. Holmes hands paper to attorney.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have, in fact, handed me a sample of such an +application. + +Mr. HOLMES. I thought you might want one, so I brought one along. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was very good, and we will mark this as Holmes +Exhibit No. 1-A on your deposition of July 23, 1964. I have put my +initials on the corner after I have marked it. Would you initial it, +too, for the purpose of identification? + +(Mr. Holmes initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the ordinary procedure that is followed when a +box is rented and this form is used? + +Mr. HOLMES. The form is completed, usually by the applicant, and it +must be signed by the applicant, even if an employee does complete it. +This portion of the--I don't know how you want to designate it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will number them portions 1, 2, and 3. + +Mr. HOLMES. All right, part 1 of this application is simply the +instructions on a combination box, and instructions to the patron +is torn off, and he keeps it or they throw it away. Portions 2 and +3 are completed, too. 2 gives the applicant's name, the name of his +corporation or firm he represents, if applicable, the kind of business, +the business address, the home address, and the place for his signature +and the date. On the third portion is a box for him to indicate whether +he wants all mail in the box, or just whether he wants some other +disposition and so on, and a place for name of person entitled to +receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself, and he +fills in that. These two portions then remain together in the file of +the post office where he made application. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is portions 2 and 3? + +Mr. HOLMES. Until he relinquishes the box. They pull this out and +endorse it so the box has been closed, and the date and they tear off 3 +and throw it away. It has no more purpose. That is what happened on box +2915. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They have thrown part 3 away? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; as it so happens, even though they closed the box +in New Orleans, they still had part 3 and it showed that the mail +for Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell was good in the box. They hadn't +complied with regulations. They still had it there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a lucky thing. + +Mr. HOLMES. We wish they had here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now is this regulation that says section 3 should be torn +off and thrown away, is that a general regulation of the Post Office +Department? + +Mr. HOLMES. It is in the Post Office Manual Instructions to employees; +yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no way, as I understand it, to tell from +the records maintained, as far as you know anyway, who was authorized +to receive mail at Post Office Box 2915 that Oswald had while he was +here in Dallas before he went to New Orleans in April of 1963; is that +correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Other than Oswald himself and his name on the application. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. + +Mr. HOLMES. Now he did tell me in personal interrogation that no one +was permitted to get mail in that box but him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He said that same thing about the box in New Orleans, +too, didn't he? + +Mr. HOLMES. He did at first, and then---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you showed him portion three of the application and +then he changed his story? + +Mr. HOLMES. I said how about Marina Oswald, and he said, well, she was +my wife. What is wrong with that? And I said how about A. J. Hidell, +and he said I don't know anything about that. And I said look here. And +he said, well, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now supposing that Oswald had not in fact authorized A. +J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package +came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post +Office Box 2915, what procedure would be followed when that package +came in? + +Mr. HOLMES. They would put the notice in the box. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Regardless of whose name was associated with the box? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a +box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same +name--well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too +strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for +other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little +bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how +good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that the package would have come in addressed to +Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the +post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail +from it? + +Mr. HOLMES. Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way +around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people +that box the mail, and in theory--I am surmising now, because nobody +knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The +man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is +no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, +"I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so +and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and +whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the +package, and that is all there is to it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification +because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was +entitled to it? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is very possible that that in fact is what happened in +this case? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is in theory. I would assume that is what happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the other hand, it is also possible that Oswald had +actually authorized Hidell to receive mail through the box? + +Mr. HOLMES. Could have been. And on the other hand, he had this +identification card of Hidell's in his billfold, which he could have +produced and showed the window clerk. Either way, he got it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I believe I am correct in my understanding that +when Mr. Belin took your testimony previously, that you did mark as +exhibits the various forms that Oswald had filled out here in the Post +Office Department in Dallas; isn't that right? + +Mr. HOLMES. You mean the box rent application? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. HOLMES. I have long since given them to the FBI. However, I +endorsed them at the time I gave them to the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I can't remember. + +Mr. HOLMES. I will show you a photocopy maybe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The basic thrust of my question is that you have given +the originals of the documents to the FBI? + +Mr. HOLMES. I have the receipts, except for Ruby's box, which nobody +ever asked me for, and I still have them. That is Ruby's box at the +Terminal Annex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is not a part of the record so far. We should +mark it as a part of the record now. Are you required to keep this in +your records? + +Mr. HOLMES. If you will give me a receipt for it. I have a photocopy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't I +just mark the photocopy and you keep the original? + +Mr. HOLMES. Okay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the photocopy, and I would like to have +you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark +that as Holmes Exhibit No. 2-A on your deposition of July 23, 1064, a +photocopy of a post office box application in the name of Jack Ruby, +dated November 1, 1963. Post Office Box No. 5475, and as I understand +it, this was an application that was made at the Terminal Annex here in +Dallas, is that correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any way in which we can tell from just looking +at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from +the Terminal Annex? + +Mr. HOLMES. The box number categories are set out for each station that +comes within that bracket. The applications don't tell you what post +office it is from. It might be from San Antonio. But I don't know why. +What are your initials and name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. W. J. L., Wesley J. Liebeler. + +Mr. HOLMES. How do you spell your last name? + +Mr. LIEBELER (spelling). L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. + +Mr. HOLMES. Thank you [handing another card to Mr. Liebeler]. I will +explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it +is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office +Department Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order. + +Mr. HOLMES. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a +forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret +it, Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 +in Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on +this box to this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, +he is again forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second +forwarding. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that instructions had been given to +forward from box 2915 here in Dallas? + +Mr. HOLMES. Direct without going through---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that all together, he had first +issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in +Dallas to box 30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that +mail was to be forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex., +and that is dated October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks +appearing on this form. There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 +on both sides, and there is also a postmark in New Orleans, which is +difficult to read, but it is sometime in October. Now you suggested +perhaps October 11, 1963. What do you interpret happened with regard +to this notice, Post Office Department Form 3546? Can you tell from +looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have +first prepared this form? + +Mr. HOLMES. That would have been prepared in New Orleans and dropped +in the mailbox. He would have prepared that at a station, because they +have filled the front in and crossed it out. In fact, they hand these +out at the stations. He has gone into the station probably where he +had this box. In the normal course of the patron's activities he would +have gone into that station where that box is and said, "I want my mail +forwarded." All right, fill this out. + +It looks like they might have filled it out for him. It doesn't look +too much like his writing. But they would have filled this out to show +that mail from this box should not be sent to New Orleans, but sent to +Irving, so the post office would send that up to Dallas where this box +is at the main office, and they would have that on file here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Box 2915, you mean? That address here? + +Mr. HOLMES. Here is a photocopy of box 2915 application, and it will +show it was closed on May 14, 1963, which is this red figure up here. +So when they got that in here in Dallas, they would have put this red +mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then +they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some +other instructions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have +a photostatic of this form we have been talking about? + +Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me mark this original one for the record then, if I +may. + +Mr. HOLMES. That is all right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this Post Office Department Form 3546, +which has been marked "Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A on deposition of July 23, +1964," and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of +identification. + +(Mr. Holmes initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you some more questions about Holmes +Exhibit No. 3, which is postmarked, as we have indicated, October 16, +in Dallas, and also bears a postmark in New Orleans which I think is +October 11. + +Mr. HOLMES. My best educated guess is the 11th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me come bluntly to the point. My problem is this. +Oswald wasn't in New Orleans on October 11. He was in Dallas. + +Mr. HOLMES. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been +mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could +have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed +it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, +Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it. + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans +one correctly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an +October postmark. + +Mr. HOLMES. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because +the hours are down there and are different from that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an +inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald +filled out a form 3575? + +Mr. HOLMES. That is the regular forwarding order. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or +September 25? + +Mr. HOLMES. September 24. + +Mr. LIEBELER. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed +on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to +them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office +Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you +can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we +have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no +endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, +and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says. + +Mr. HOLMES. If that were completed in some other post office, they +wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence +that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it? + +Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his +handwriting. + +Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office +filled this form out? + +Mr. HOLMES. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, +long-distance telephone call. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they could have done that from the records they +had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post +Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box +30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of +course, on September 24? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile. + +Mr. HOLMES. It is an original card. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the +original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A. + +I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic +problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I +appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, +Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that +you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that +correct? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have +come in contact with in this business. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Between us and the FBI? + +Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now it may be as you suggested---- + +Mr. HOLMES. Except Ruby's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have given us a copy? + +Mr. HOLMES. I have given you a good clear photocopy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. If you do come across any other papers in your +files---- + +Mr. HOLMES. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. +attorney in Dallas, Tex.]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER + +The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before +the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee +Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not +asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell +Wesley Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, +who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey +Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to +Dallas; isn't that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You testified in Washington that on that particular +morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into +the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that +package in the car; isn't that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you described that package and you told us about what +you saw in detail at that time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the +one you saw on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into +the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the +package he had on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that +package any other time or at any other place? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for +coming in. + +Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH + +The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SMITH. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I +am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your +testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by +Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution +of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to +have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of +your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you +this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to +go ahead without an attorney, is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational +background? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the +second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary +school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school +in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas +Police Department? + +Mr. SMITH. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a +uniformed officer, patrolman? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, +or just what has been the nature of your work? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to +traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the +vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and +what you were told. + +Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November +22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions +that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came +through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the +lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all +I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at +the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in +the office? + +Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were +there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence +at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken +down? + +Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the +men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that +was my instructions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or +delivered orally? + +Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the +captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places +and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that +correct? + +Mr. SMITH. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the +motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the +same as the ones that you were given? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the +motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage +in general crowd control activities? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about +scanning buildings? + +Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing +to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific +instructions on that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what +did you do? + +Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and +it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At +approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had +an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main +and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I +stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent +to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with +this fellow that had the epileptic fit? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? + +Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of +it before this even. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a +motorcycle or had a car? + +Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think +he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man +when I arrived at the scene. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called +and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and +Houston Streets? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston? + +Mr. SMITH. Three of us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men? + +Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his +initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there? + +Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the +hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes +until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in +the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic +up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from +that you held up? + +Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into +the intersection of Elm and Houston? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and +held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston +Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm +Street? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows +on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which +the shots were fired? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see +them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must +admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm +Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston +Street? + +Mr. SMITH. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the +Texas School Book Depository Building at all? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as +far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that +connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that +particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were +told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is +marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School +Book Depository Building in there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, +and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off +opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book +Depository Building, and you were standing to the east? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston? + +Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right +at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back +in the vicinity of the automobile? + +Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of +approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went +by. Is that approximately correct? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple +underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the +immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a +building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the +School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is? + +Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of +that building? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that +building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the +building to your left. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, +because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I +know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything +unusual. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? +That is the county building? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing +the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point +where you were standing? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or +closed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a +good vantage point from which to observe these windows? + +Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the +building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets +at all from where you were standing? + +Mr. SMITH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great +difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and +you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. Correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, +tell us what happened at that point. + +Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to +watch the President as the motorcade went by? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to +make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also +to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the +shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the +shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, +because it was such a ricochet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just +in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the +bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the +concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street +that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is +that right? + +Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in +the parking lot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back +from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the +parking lot and looked around? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars +and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was +some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when +I got there. + +I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the +shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, +this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. +Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he +showed me who he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. +In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I +started over here in this particular section. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the +triple underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came +from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But +it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner +here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward +the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on +the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book +Depository Building. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have +come from up in that area? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of +it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the +shots in the area. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large +buildings around the area where the shots were fired from? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the +railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you +heard the shots? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the +bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School +Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and +then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to +look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can +remember? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up +there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area +down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main +railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find +anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area? + +Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through +automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back +there; is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy +sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said +they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all +the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the +front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I +and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or +out until he was passed by the chief. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School +Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did +thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other +officers? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into +them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there. + +Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around +there, and I went back to the building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that +building, do you remember? + +Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard? + +Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those +two men? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was +Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let +anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order? + +Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just +about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door +and not let anyone in or out? + +Mr. SMITH. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. +I don't remember; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front +door? + +Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the +back door? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is +where you stayed? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get +some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there +for now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department +that went into the building? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service +agents around? + +Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the +Dallas office of the Secret Service? + +Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out +of the building, or in the area at all? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing +there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of +significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked +you about? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only +let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have +any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI +agents; were there some of those? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post? + +Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I +don't recall who the officer was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you +can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved? + +Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had +set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee +and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there +that evening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have +anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit? + +Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I +saw him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture? + +Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the +bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall +their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre +that they thought might have been the one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on +Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area +here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the +buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes +and checking the cars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three +streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under +the triple underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the +intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then +turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the +assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from +going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering +now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway? + +Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and +gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, +there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is +there not? + +Mr. SMITH. What do you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks +here. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the +three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? +Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway? + +Mr. SMITH. It is back off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the +trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and +crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under +the triple underpass? + +Mr. SMITH. They merge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the +motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to +the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart? + +Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you +stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that +you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main +Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the +situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have +seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think +the Commission should know. + +Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I +appreciate your cooperation. + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WELCOME EUGENE BARNETT + +The testimony of Welcome Eugene Barnett was taken at 3:50 p.m., on July +23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? Do +you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BARNETT. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney for the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony +by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive +Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress +No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission governing the taking +of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want +one, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know you +did not get the 3 days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we +had, and you were just advised of it this morning, I believe. I assume, +however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead +with your testimony without having an attorney. + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Mr. BARNETT. Welcome Eugene Barnett. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? + +Mr. BARNETT. July 12, 1932, New Hope, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are apparently a uniformed officer of the Dallas +Police Department, isn't that right? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Dallas police? + +Mr. BARNETT. Eight and a half years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were assigned to the area +of Elm and Houston Streets on November 22, 1963; is that correct? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you received instructions to go +there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? +Would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words? + +Mr. BARNETT. We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to +be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one +was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for +people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep +the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. +Then when the President came by, I heard three shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back, you got to the area around 10 o'clock; +is that right? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go when you got there? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other officers? + +Mr. BARNETT. Who were the other officers? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BARNETT. J. D. Smith, and another officer named Smith. I don't know +his initials. E. L., I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got +there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was +supposed to do? + +Mr. BARNETT. We divided our duties. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you do that? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got +on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over +to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be +ready. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a +picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--Commission Exhibit +No. 354. + +Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here +in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not? + +Mr. BARNETT. I was right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 1? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until +the motorcade arrived? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop +the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop +traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, +and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the +Depository Building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty +much into Houston Street? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To stop the traffic that was coming? + +Mr. BARNETT. South on Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. South on Houston Street? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; Elm Street is so wide, and I helped these +officers here stop this traffic here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have written the No. 4 on here before and it is kind +of hard to read. You also helped to stop the traffic that was coming +down here in the area of No. 4, which would have been the traffic on +Elm Street? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was standing right about this position right +here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right about No. 8? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically, were you given any instructions when +you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the +windows of the buildings around that area? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always +do. It is understood that you have the buildings to watch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But there were no specific instructions given to any of +the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about +watching the windows in the area? + +Mr. BARNETT. I don't see any use in being instructed on that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, regardless of that fact---- + +Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to +the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on +the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building; +were you not? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before +the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency? + +Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few +minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part +of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building +were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the +building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no +windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the +President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over +and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, +so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade +came? + +Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got +this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here, +instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see +the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here +[pointing]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the +intersection? + +Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I +was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small +boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from +Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. +9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that +right? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. BARNETT. Three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were +standing? + +Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides +the shots? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The +sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when +each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there +would be nothing else until the next shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President +when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, +but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was +ducking then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, +you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see +the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks? + +Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall? + +Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to +where they came from? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them? + +Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a +firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the +whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from? + +Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But +none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if +a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded +high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from +up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the +windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason. +And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And +I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building. +To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were +coming from that building? + +Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book +Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner? + +Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching +for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, +and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to +the door. + +I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could +see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the +building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You +thought they had been fired from the top of the building? + +Mr. BARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to +the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the +fire escape? + +Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking +up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side +of the building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, +or any movement on top of the building? + +Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building? + +Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching +the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the +building and I saw officers going west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the +building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one +watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there +was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around +to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. +Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here +searching. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our +Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming +back toward me, started back toward me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was +probably 2-1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, +my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and +asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front +and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that +time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a +construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection +up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the +window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and +ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the +back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took +him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, +at the door there with one of the other officers, J. D. Smith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't actually go into the building at the time? + +Mr. BARNETT. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot +was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from +going in and out? + +Mr. BARNETT. It was around 2-1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2-1/2 or 3 +minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From the time the last shot was fired until the time you +were standing at that front door? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you let anybody out of the building after you got +there? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; until they were authorized. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and +out? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, +county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building +were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought +to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that +was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let +them out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it was possible that people could have left the +building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and +Officer Smith stationed yourselves there? + +Mr. BARNETT. When I went to the door to get the name of the building, +there were people going in and out then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There were? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was as quickly as 2-1/2 minutes from the +time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? +Do you think it was that quick? + +Mr. BARNETT. I believe it was 2-1/2 minutes probably from the time I +ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes. Then +it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So your recollection is that it was fairly short order +that you got to the front door? + +Mr. BARNETT. Three minutes at the most. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post +yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else? + +Mr. BARNETT. Sergeant Howard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You remained there at the door for how long? + +Mr. BARNETT. Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11:30 to 3--close to 12:30 to 3. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At which time you were relieved from duty? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; from that position I had to go back to my +regular assignment at Commerce and Akard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, +on television? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all? + +Mr. BARNETT. None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that +intersection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to any other officer in the +department that remembers seeing him in the area at all? + +Mr. BARNETT. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in +the building and talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Officer Baker was one? + +Mr. BARNETT. I haven't talked to the officer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had +come from the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no notion in your mind that they could have +come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass? + +Mr. BARNETT. To me, it is impossible. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From the sound of the shots? + +Mr. BARNETT. The sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't +echo. It would be a low sound. For a shot to echo, it has to be high up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean to hang? + +Mr. BARNETT. To hang like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now there were altogether three policemen assigned to the +corner of Elm and Houston; is that right? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other men assigned down the length of Elm +Street here, that you know? + +Mr. BARNETT. Not that I know of. There were no men stationed +permanently there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The responsibility of control in that area would have +been the job of the motorcycle riders and the Secret Service men? + +Mr. BARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any general orders that are issued to police +officers in regard to the scanning of windows when motorcades go by and +that sort of thing? + +Mr. BARNETT. Well, in our training, we are told to scan windows, among +lots of things. Look on top of buildings, windows, cars, but, of +course, these things you are taught from the beginning. You don't have +to be reminded of it every day. That is what you are taught to do, and +it would take too long to remind us of everything they are supposed to +do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Every time you went out on an assignment? + +Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; it would be impossible. That is why you are +trained for a job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you saw or heard on +that day that you haven't told us about now, that you think we would be +interested in? + +Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I believe that is all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, officer, for coming in. We +appreciate your cooperation. + +Mr. BARNETT. You are welcome. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDDY RAYMOND WALTHERS + +The testimony of Eddy Raymond Walthers was taken at 8:16 p.m., on July +23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 361 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, [spelling] +L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r, and I am an attorney on the staff of the President's +Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I +have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant +to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November +29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress 137. Pursuant to the rules +of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled +to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of +your hearing. I know you didn't get the 3 days' notice of your hearing, +but that can be waived by the witness and I assume that since you are +here you are prepared to proceed and that we may proceed without your +attorney being present? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Eddy Raymond Walthers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I was born here in Dallas County in 1928 on July 17. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I live at 2527 Boyd Street in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a deputy sheriff in Dallas County, Tex.? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a deputy sheriff? + +Mr. WALTHERS. About 9 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in or about the area of the +Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that +correct? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to be there at that time? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing in front of the sheriff's office on Main +Street and close to Houston with Mrs. Decker watching the parade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there is a building right there at the corner of +Elm Street and Houston Street, what has been referred to as the county +building; is that right? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing over on Main Street just east of the +intersection of Main Street and Houston; is that correct? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; just between the two buildings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you standing there when the motorcade came down? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you stood there and watched the motorcade go by? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you acting in any official capacity at that time? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I was a deputy sheriff--I was on duty and had stopped +there with Mrs. Decker to watch the parade go by. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any specific assignment in connection +with the motorcade or the President or anything like that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street and made a wide turn +into Houston Street and went back down Elm Street; isn't that right? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the motorcade turned onto Houston Street, what did +you do? + +Mr. WALTHERS. After it turned onto Houston and most of the motorcade +went by, I turned to talk to Mrs. Decker and asked her if she was ready +to go back inside and I proceeded to help her back up the steps and +then we heard the shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were still standing over on Main Street +around the corner from Houston Street when you heard the shots? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually didn't see any of the shots take effect or +anything like that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I remember three shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear about that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you heard the shots? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Well, I was facing her and I told her that sounded like a +rifle and I ran across here [indicating] and there is a wall along in +here and I hopped over it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you ran across Houston Street and jumped over +the wall and back into Dealey Plaza there? + +Mr. WALTHERS. People were laying down on this grass--women and men were +laying on top of their children on the grass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On either side of Main Street? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and then someone, I don't know, I say someone--a +lot of people was sitting there--but it must have been behind that +fence--there's a fence right along here---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the area immediately behind the +No. 7 that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 354--there is a concrete +structure there of some sort. + +Mr. WALTHERS. It don't show on this, but since this picture was made, +there's a fence--it may be there--it's a solid board fence along here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Running along behind the concrete structure that faces +Elm Street and is No. 7 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. WALTHERS. And at that time I heard the shots as well as everybody +else, but as we got over this fence, and a lot of officers and people +were just rummaging through the train yards back in this parking area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the parking area down there? West of the Texas School +Book Depository Building between the Texas School Book Depository and +the railroad tracks? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the discussion came up among several of the +officers, Were there any shots fired? And I said, "Well, they sounded +like rifle shots to me." At the time no one knew--in our crowd they +were sure the shots had been fired though because of the reports--we +heard the noise, and I left then and went back up here and came back +onto the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Up on Elm Street? + +Mr. WALTHERS. And went over on this grassy area right in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Between Elm Street and Main Street? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Between Elm and Main and starting to looking at the grass +to see if some shots had been fired and some of them might have chugged +into this turf here and it would give an indication if some had really +been, if they were really shots and not just blanks or something, and a +man, and I couldn't tell you his name if my life depended on it--he had +a car parked right here in Main Street--in the Main Street lane headed +east, just under this underpass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the point marked No. 9 of the exhibit we are +talking about; is that right? + +Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--in this lane here and his car was just +partially sticking out parked there and he came up to me and asked me, +he said, "Are you looking to see where some bullets may have struck?" +And I said, "Yes." He says, "I was standing over by the bank here, +right there where my car is parked when those shots happened," and he +said, "I don't know where they came from, or if they were shots, but +something struck me on the face," and he said, "It didn't make any +scratch or cut and it just was a sting," and so I had him show me right +where he was standing and I started to search in that immediate area +and found a place on the curb there in the Main Street lane there close +to the underpass where a projectile had struck that curb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember that man's name if I told you or if I +reminded you of it? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry--I don't know if I would remember it or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a man by the name of Jim Tague [spelling], +T-a-g-u-e, who works as an automobile salesman. + +Mr. WALTHERS. I remember he had a gray automobile--I remember that very +well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think it must have been Mr. Tague because he was in +here this afternoon and he told me his car was parked right there at +No. 9 and that's when I put the mark on the exhibit and he walked up +there and talked to a deputy sheriff and he looked at the curb. + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; this was pure ignorance on my part in not getting +his name--I don't know--but I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is pretty clear it was Mr. Tague, because his +testimony he gave today jibed with yours and it couldn't have been +anybody else and he had a cut and some blood on his face. + +Mr. WALTHERS. Well, at the time I wasn't interested in whether he was +cut or what, I just said, "Where were you standing?" In an effort +to prove there was some shots fired, and after seeing the way it +struck the curb at an angle--which it came down on the curb--it was +almost obvious that it either came from this building or this building +[indicating] the angle it struck the curb at. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this building or this building you are +talking about the School Book Depository Building or the building +immediately east thereof, across Houston Street? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I ran right then back up along in here and that +would be right at the corner of Elm and Houston, where I ran into +one of our deputies, Allan Sweatt, and told him--everybody still at +this time was just--I don't know what you would call it--just running +around in circles you might say, and I told him, I said, "A bullet +struck that curb. It's fresh--you can see a fresh ricochet where it had +struck," and I said, "From the looks of it, it's probably going to be +in this School Book Building," and immediately then everybody started +surrounding the School Book Building and then I got off and come up the +street here that runs in front of the School Book Depository Building +and started gathering up a bunch of witnesses and started taking them +over and put them in our office so we could get some statements before +they got all jumbled up together with their stories. + +I continued to take witnesses across the street here and locked them up +and got our secretaries to start taking depositions from them before +they had a chance to get their stories messed up, and I don't remember +who it was now that came--as I was coming out the back door of the +jail, out of the office building here and said an officer had been +killed in Oak Cliff and there wasn't anybody over there, everybody was +down here, and I got a couple of our civil deputies and put them in a +car and went to Oak Cliff, and left all this area where the shooting +was--where the shooting had taken place--and just at the time I reached +Zangs and Jefferson in Oak Cliff, I had a little transistor radio in +my car, and that's the first time I knew the President was actually +shot. They announced the fact that he was actually dead on the Citizens +radio and immediately after that we got a call that a suspect that was +supposed to have shot Officer Tippit was in the library building on +Marsalis and Jefferson, and everybody that had made it to Oak Cliff +then went to that library and we bailed out and surrounded it and +found out that it was no good. It was not the suspect, and then we got +back in the car and got the call to go to the Texas Theatre, that the +suspect was in the balcony of the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, and I +parked there just east of the entrance and out in the traffic lane, +and I had a sawed off shotgun that I took with me inside the building +and went up the steps to the landing there and got hold of the manager +and asked him to turn on the house lights, and he said, "I'll go get +some flashlights." I said, "No, you can turn on the house lights, we're +looking for a man," and I went on into the balcony and there wasn't +anybody in the balcony. It was vacant. I ran to the rail then and +looked downstairs and the house lights had just came on and it wasn't +too bright, even with them on, and we seen some confusion down in the +center section close to the back of the center section of the seats and +I hollered to another bunch of officers that were still pouring in the +balcony, "He must be downstairs," or, "He is downstairs," or something +to that effect and I ran back down the steps then and I laid my shotgun +down there across a couple of seats there and went into the aisle where +a scuffle was taking place and seen two hands wrapped around a pistol. +Like I say, it was dark even above the seats and down between the seats +it was pretty much of a mess to tell what was really happening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This man that had both hands up was down there between +the seats? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Well, there were two different hands wrapped around the +gun holding onto it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Two different people fighting for it? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and there were a lot of officers jumping over the +seats coming back to where it was happening, and Mr. B. K. Carroll that +works up at the city was coming right in on the same row I was in from +the opposite side facing me and I grabbed ahold of the hands that had +the gun and about that time two or three other officers piled into the +scuffle there in between the seats and I was real sure it was Carroll +that got the pistol out of his hands, or pulled it away from the hands +and then some uniformed officers just gathered this boy that turned +out to be Oswald up in a bunch, you might say, and I picked my shotgun +up and Mr. McDonald, I remember seeing him pick his hat up off of the +floor and standing over at the edge of everything and dusting his hat +off when we got ready to come out with him, and I got the shotgun, and +a lot of people had congregated out in front of the show and there's +kind of an island there that goes all the way out into the street and +people were all over it and I had gotten the shotgun and turned it +sideways like a battering ram to get through and they were all raising +hell and cussing and saying what they wanted to do, "Let us have him," +and they wadded him up in the car and left with him, and then I got in +my car and somewhere in the shuffle I lost the two officers I had with +me--I don't remember how they got back to the station, but I remember +leaving them--I couldn't find them, so I went on back to the station +then and Mr. Decker gave me an address on a little piece of paper--I +thought I could remember the address in Irving where this Oswald had +been staying with Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 2515 West Fifth? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I believe it was--5th or 15th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth. + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and +we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and +another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right +now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what +turned out to be Mrs. Paine--just as soon as we stepped on the porch, +she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you," and we didn't have +any trouble at all--we just went right on in and started asking her--at +that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came +up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that +they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you account for the fact that Mrs. Paine said, +"Come on in, we've been expecting you?" + +Mr. WALTHERS. I don't know--to this day, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that's what she said? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I know that's what she said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Paine said that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir; she said, "Come on in, we have been expecting +you." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there that heard her say that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine all the officers on the porch did. I know Rose +was trying to show her his credentials and she just pushed the screen +open and said, Come on in. Now, after we got inside and we were making +a search of the house with their permission, they had no objection +whatsoever. Mrs. Oswald couldn't speak much English and Mr. Rose was +doing most of the questioning, the city officer. We were just--not +actually knowing what we were looking for, just searching, and we went +into the garage there and found this--I believe it was one of these +things like soap comes in, a big pasteboard barrel and it had a lot +of these little leaflets in it, "Freedom for Cuba" and they were gold +color with black printing on them, and we found those and we also found +a gray blanket with some red trim on it that had a string tied at one +end that you could see the imprint of a gun, I mean where it had been +wrapped in it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You could really see the imprint of the gun? + +Mr. WALTHERS. You could see where it had been--it wasn't completely +untied--one end had been untied and the other end had been left tied, +that would be around the barrel and you could see where the gun had +rested on the inside of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean by that, you could tell that from the way the +thing had been tied? + +Mr. WALTHERS. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the +impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that +a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind--you couldn't tell, but +you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found +some little metal file cabinets--I don't know what kind you would call +them--they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single +handle on top of it and the handle moves. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were? + +Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all +in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch +of pictures that we taken. We didn't go to the trouble of looking at +any of this stuff much--just more or less confiscated it at the time, +and we looked at it there--just like that, and then we took all this +stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number +from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff. +It was a Whitehall phone number, I believe, and they said they didn't +know where he lived, but this was where they called him, and I called +Sheriff Decker on the phone when I was there and gave him that number +for the criss-cross, so they could send some men to that house, which +I think they did, but I didn't go myself. Then we put everybody in the +car, the kids, Mrs. Oswald, and everyone--no; just a minute--before +that, though, this Michael Paine or Mitchell Paine, whichever you call +it, came home and I had understood from Mrs. Paine already that they +weren't living together, that they were separated and he was supposed +to be living in Grand Prairie and when he showed up I asked him what +was his object in coming home. He said--well, after he had heard about +the President's getting shot, he just decided he would take off and +come home, and he arrived there while we were there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was already after the time Oswald had been arrested, +of course? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had actually helped arrest Oswald at the +Texas Theatre? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what time was it approximately, would you be able to +give us that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Oh, man--I couldn't tell you; I'm sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was arrested about what time--it must have been +around close to 2 o'clock or 1:30? + +Mr. WALTHERS. It was between 1:30 and 2 o'clock. This wasn't his +getting off time, I remember him saying he had taken off and he had +worked at Bell Helicopter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It's perfectly possible, however, that he could have +heard about Oswald having been arrested in connection with the Officer +Tippit shooting? + +Mr. WALTHERS. But he didn't say anything about that when he came in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I didn't ask him, of course, if he knew he had been +arrested. I asked him if he knew Oswald and he said, "Yes"; he had +known him. We were standing, I remember, on each side of the ironing +board when I talked to him and he said "Yes," he had known him and I +said, "How does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?" He said, +"He's a Communist. He is very communistic minded. He believes in it." +And he says, "He used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and +he says, "I don't believe in it." And our conversation didn't go too +far. It was just a matter of talk about Oswald and what he had to say +about him being a Communist. + +They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' +office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the +blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz +and left them and went back to my station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? + +Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a +letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we +seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and +a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, +"That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about +this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down +and shut it and took the whole works. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have been advised that some story has developed that at +some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets +full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or +something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the +stuff you got out there or anything like that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of +them contained, I don't know myself to this day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could +see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play +for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel. + +Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, +but things get all twisted around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a story, some sort of story that you +were supposed to have found a spent bullet. + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, +I've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never found any spent bullet? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No; me and Allan Sweatt 2 or 3 days after the +assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search +in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe +the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we +looked all up there and everywhere and I never did find one. I never +did in all of my life tell anybody I found a bullet other than where it +hit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Also, actually, if you were standing down here in front +of this building on Main Street at the time the shots were fired, I +suppose you could have seen down there to this railroad track trestle +that goes over the underpass, did you have occasion to look down there +at any time? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No; it never even entered my mind, and knowing how this +thing is arranged and I have chased a couple of escapees across the +thing before, and knowing what was over there, the thought that anyone +was shooting from back in here--I've heard some people say he was +behind the fence, and I'm telling you, it just can't be, because it's a +wide open river bottom area as far as you can go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It's a river bottom? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the thought that anyone would be shooting off of +there would almost be an impossible thing--there's no place for him to +go--there's nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you certainly never saw anybody firing from the +tops of those railroad tracks, I mean, you never told anybody you saw +someone firing from up there? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir; not at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never told anybody that one of the shots had come +from the top of those railroad tracks either; is that right? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that what you saw there on the curb was a +ricochet mark or could you clearly identify that in your own mind? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; it was a fresh ricochet mark. I have seen them and +I noticed it for the next 2 or 3 days as it got grayer and grayer and +grayer as it aged. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What curb was it on? + +Mr. WALTHERS. It would be on the south Main Street curb--it would be on +the south side of Main. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354 here and I +am looking at--looking specifically at spot No. 9 on that exhibit, it +would have been directly east up Main Street on the north curb at No. +9, is that right? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, and about--I could step this off here--just about +this distance from the underpass on the curb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 or 15 feet or something like that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine about 10 or 11 feet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, here's a picture that has been marked Tague Exhibit +No. 1 and I have never even been able to figure out which way it is +supposed to be looked at, but it purports to be a picture of a ricochet +mark on this curb down there, does that look anything like what you saw +down there? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, a little at one end where it first hit and then went +to the left. This would be--this was shaded from the sun by someone's +hand, evidently. This would actually be the curb--this would be the +street right here [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The lower part--the black part of the dark colored part? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. Let me see now. A picture taken straight down like +this don't have any particular bearing. I'll tell you what--this is +going to be the divider between the pavement, because I remember, +there's not any grass growing down there, it's just a gravel looking +top, so this is going to be the street, and that's right, because the +bullet is going to be big where it hit first, and then it left this +trail. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the light colored part is the street +and the dark colored part is the divider? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I think it would be the street--the light colored part, +and the dark colored part is this little gravelly looking part down +there and it's under the shade of the underpass and no grass will grow +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The light colored part is a part of the street and +the dark colored part is the curb and there is what appears to be a +ricochet mark on the curb. + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; because it is high like--this is the curb and this +is the street, and it come along this edge of the curb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the top of the curb? + +Mr. WALTHERS. And it angled down--at the angle, you could almost just +point it right back up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Evidently this shot must have went way high over that +car--the last shot, as they were fixing to go to the underpass--it must +have been awful high to hit where it did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the last shot, why? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I would say it was the last shot because of the distance +it went down towards the underpass. Had there been another shot, it +would have been way--would have went way back over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The car had already been down--the car would have already +been under and by the underpass? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you saw or observed that +day that you can tell us about what happened? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you were there at the Texas Theatre helping to +arrest Oswald, did you hear Oswald say anything when they tried to get +ahold of him and tried to get him out of there? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Like I say, there was quite a scuffle between them, but I +heard him say, "It's all over now, it's all over now," or something to +that degree, and I can't be sure, because like I say, there was such a +scuffle going on and there was so much confusion, but he said something +about, "Now"--"It's over now," or, "It's all over now." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anybody else heard anything that he said +at the time; have you discussed this with anybody else? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I haven't discussed it because the officers that were +there were not in my squad and I haven't talked to anybody about it, +but there were some other officers around there. Some of our officers +were there but they weren't right there in the area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear--there have been some stories that he +actually tried to shoot one of the officers there with that pistol and +one of the officers heard that pistol--the hammer hit the bullet, did +you hear anything like that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When I say, "Did you hear anything like that," I mean, +did you hear the hammer in the pistol hit the bullet? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear somebody say that it hit the bullet? + +Mr. WALTHERS. I think McDonald said he snapped it at him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear it? + +Mr. WALTHERS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do think that Oswald said something like +this--"It's over, it's all over now?" + +Mr. WALTHERS. He said something--when he was being pulled up out of the +seat and as they were getting the gun away from him is when he made a +remark about, "It's over now, it's all over now." + +Mr. LIEBELER. After he had been subdued and they got his gun away from +him, he said that? + +Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that I haven't asked +you about, I don't think I have any more questions. I want to thank you +very much for coming in and giving us your testimony, especially being +as late as it is. + +Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry if I was a little evasive on some of this, but +I didn't remember--it's been quite a while now. Of course, I have the +statement that I made immediately following all this, I guess, they +sent you a copy of it. It would probably have a little more of the time +and dates on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have covered the basic points that I wanted to cover +and that's all. Thank you very much for coming. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS TAGUE + +The testimony of James Thomas Tague was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. TAGUE. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission +pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated +November 20, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have +an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days, notice of the +hearing, and you are entitled to the usual privileges so far as not +answering questions are concerned. + +Since you are here without an attorney, I presume that you are prepared +to go ahead without the presence of counsel? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? + +Mr. TAGUE. James Thomas Tague. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. TAGUE. My address is 700 West Euless in Euless, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? + +Mr. TAGUE. I am a salesman for Cedar Springs Dodge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. TAGUE. Dallas; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. TAGUE. October 17, 1936. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity +of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the +assassination, is that correct? + +Mr. TAGUE. That's correct; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you happened to be there and what +you saw, and what happened. + +Mr. TAGUE. I was going downtown to pick up my wife--she was my girl +that I was going with at the time--to take her to lunch, and I +accidentally came upon the motorcade. + +I was not planning to watch the parade or anything. There were several +cars stopped in front of me, and I stopped there myself under the +triple underpass and got out and was standing there just, oh, about a +minute before the President's car came by. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was your car actually located? + +Mr. TAGUE. The nose of the car was sticking out from underneath the +triple underpass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What street were you on? + +Mr. TAGUE. What is the farthest street to the south? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street? + +Mr. TAGUE. Commerce; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street is one-way going east? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right; that's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So they stopped all traffic on Commerce Street? + +Mr. TAGUE. Cars in the left lane were stopping, the ones next to the +curb, and several cars had stopped in front of me, and I stopped. The +car was just halfway out from underneath the underpass, and I got out +of my car and stood by the bridge abutment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were just out from under the triple underpass so +that you could see the President's car and the motorcade coming on down +Elm Street, is that correct? + +Mr. TAGUE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you saw. + +Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was +watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this +time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud +firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more +of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing +firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the +motorcade and, of course, two more shots. + +And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting +after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge +abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and just as I +looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the +Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going on Elm Street under the triple underpass? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. Going on Elm. So I stood there looking around. I +looked up--there was a motorcycle policeman, and he stopped and had +drawn his gun and was running up the embankment toward the railroad +tracks. A crowd of people; several people, were starting to come down +into that area where he was running, and the people pointing, and +excitement up there and so on, and about that time a patrolman who +evidently had been stationed under the triple underpass walked up and +said, "What happened?" and I said, "I don't know; something." + +And we walked up to the--by this time the motorcycle policeman returned +back close to where his motorcycle was, and we walked up there and +there was a man standing there. Seeing that he was very excited--I +don't remember his name--at the time I did have it on the tip of my +tongue--very excited saying he was watching the President and it seemed +like his head just exploded. This was a couple or 3 minutes after this +happened. And the patrolman said, "Well, I saw something fly off back +on the street." + +We walked back down there, and another man joined us who identified +himself as the deputy sheriff, who was in civilian clothes, and I +guess this was 3 or 4 minutes after. I don't know how to gage time on +something like that. + +And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the +face while I was standing down there." + +And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek." + +And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood. And he said, +Where were you standing? + +And I says, "Right down here." We walked 15 feet away when this deputy +sheriff said, "Look here on the curb." There was a mark quite obviously +that was a bullet, and it was very fresh. + +We turned around and we looked back up to see where this possibly could +have come from, and the policeman thought he had seen something over +here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I have some pictures here and I will show you +to indicate these places, an aerial view of the whole area, Commission +Exhibit No. 354. Of course, the Texas School Book Depository Building +is here on the left, and this is the triple underpass here, and this, +of course, is Commerce Street going toward the east. + +As I understand it, your car was just nosed out in the left-hand lane +of Commerce Street and was just out from under the railroad tracks +that go over the triple underpass, so the nose of your car was on the +easternmost portion, on the eastern side of the railroad tracks that go +over the triple underpass, is that correct? + +Mr. TAGUE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you get out of your car? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do? Did you stay near your car or did you +walk on the area toward the grassy plaza? + +Mr. TAGUE. I was standing 3 or 4 feet in front of the concrete +embankment right here [pointing]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's make a No. 6 on this picture as to where you were +standing. This is the concrete strip that runs between Commerce and +Main Street right here? + +Mr. TAGUE. I was standing about right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 6? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing when you apparently +got hit with this flying, whatever it was? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then after you had run into this deputy sheriff, you +looked along the street and you saw what you thought to be a mark made +by a---- + +Mr. TAGUE. A motorcycle was parked here and the policeman was here on +the grass right here, and there was a swarm of people around him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 7. Let's put a No. 7 there. + +Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story of how he was standing right +there as he witnessed the facts. He said it looked like the President's +head exploded. And I said I felt something hit me. We walked down here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward No. 6? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. When we got within about 20 feet, the deputy sheriff +spotted the place about 12 to 15 feet out from the embankment on the +curb, and turned around, and we looked up here where the policeman +originally ran up on the grass here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here with the letter "C" in it. +Is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in +that circle, is that right? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. I pointed this out, and we turned around and looked +toward the School Book Depository, and from the reflection of the sun +it was something on the window. Not the--well, it is maybe five or six +windows which were open, which it was not the window that proved to be +where the shots were fired, but it was a different window like it had +spider webs or dust, and maybe shots had come through the window. + +We said maybe this is where they came from. And the deputy sheriff ran +back to the policeman. I may not be quite accurate, but I believe at +the time there was a whole swarm of motorcycle policemen coming back to +the area under the underpass going the wrong way here on Elm. + +They came back and parked, and he mentioned to them--that is probably 5 +minutes after it happened, and he was on the radio, and everybody ran +up around the School Book Depository at this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back and fix the general spot when the deputy +sheriff saw the mark on the street, going back to point No. 6, which is +where you were standing when you were hit. We go east along---- + +Mr. TAGUE. Right here is a curb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is a curb that runs along---- + +Mr. TAGUE. About 12 to 15 feet right on the top of round of the curb, +was the mark that very definitely was fresh, and I would say it was a +mark of a bullet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say it is about 15 or 20 feet east of where you were +standing? + +Mr. TAGUE. No; about 12 to 15 feet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. East of where you were standing? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At point No. 6? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just +estimate 12 to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right? + +Mr. TAGUE. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is +that right? + +Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission +Exhibit No. 354. + +Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit? + +Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything? + +Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make +any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe +the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no +connection. I looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall +this. We got to talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, +and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, You have blood there on +your cheek. That is when we walked back down there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that +mark? + +Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't +say definitely on which one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get +hit in the face? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third +shot afterwards. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots? + +Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on +the Hertz clock. It was 12:29. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that you felt yourself struck? + +Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped, got out of my car, +and here came the motorcade. I just happened upon the scene. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you went back there subsequently +and took some pictures of the area, isn't that right? + +Mr. TAGUE. Pardon? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you went back subsequently and took +some pictures of the area. + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; about a month ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I didn't know anybody knew about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Baker Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you took +that picture. + +Mr. TAGUE. No; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, that picture was taken by another +individual; I confused the picture taken by somebody else with the +picture I thought you had taken. + +You, yourself did take pictures of the area about a month ago? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; my wife and I were going to Indianapolis. This is the +home of my parents. I was taking some pictures of the area to show to +them. This was the latter part of May. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look at the curb at that time to see if the mark +was still there? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it still there? + +Mr. TAGUE. Not that I could tell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet a newspaper photographer that day and talk +to him at all about the assassination? + +Mr. TAGUE. The day of the assassination? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about +a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police +headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had +seen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that? + +Mr. TAGUE. I did that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring now to Baker Exhibit No. 1, does that look like +it might have been taken from approximately the place where you were +standing at the time you got hit, from the same general area? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe I was back further to the left, back down this way +further. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is further toward the west? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Further down toward the triple underpass? + +Mr. TAGUE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you that the lamppost that is showing +right here on the right-hand side of Baker Exhibit No. 1 is the very +end of the grassy area described by Commerce Street and Main Street, +and right down toward the concrete embankment? + +Mr. TAGUE. It might possibly be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to tell for sure by looking at Baker Exhibit +No. 1? + +Mr. TAGUE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have another picture here that purports to be a picture +of a curb with a bullet mark on it. I ask you if that looks like what +you saw that day. + +Mr. TAGUE. It looks similar, but I can't say whether this is the actual +one or not, because you can see it appears to be a bullet mark. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this picture, having marked it Tague +Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to have you initial it for the purpose +of identification. + +(Mr. Tague initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the mark on the curb---- + +Mr. TAGUE. I can't tell too much which angle of the curb this is or +what here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is not a very clear picture either. Actually, I +can't figure which way to look at it. + +Mr. TAGUE. I can't either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It looks like there is a man standing there with a hand +along the side of the curb. + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; this looks like the curb here at the back and the sun +shining down. The bullet mark was right at the circle of the curb as +this here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, where the curb turned? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. At the very round, right in the middle of the round. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is where the street curb turns; when it turns there? +I don't understand that. [Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354.] + +Mr. TAGUE. This right here, this picture was taken this way. It would +be looking this way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am still at a loss. You indicated there is a turn in +the curb at some point along here. Does the curb end and the road go +together? + +Mr. TAGUE. Here is the curb here I am talking about on the very round. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the round top of the curb? The curb itself continues +on, but the bullet struck sort of the top edge of the curb? + +Mr. TAGUE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand. Did you have any idea where these shots +came from when you heard them ringing out? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I thought they were coming from my left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately to your left, or toward the back? Of course, +now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come +from the Texas School Book Depository, but see if we can disregard that +and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the +first place. + +Mr. TAGUE. To recall everything is almost impossible. Just an +impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first impression was +that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Up above No. 7? + +Mr. TAGUE. That somebody was throwing firecrackers up there, that the +police were running up there to see what was going on, and this was my +first impression. Somebody was causing a disturbance, that somebody had +drawn a gun and was shooting at the crowd, and the police were running +up to it. When I saw the people throwing themselves on the ground is +when I realized there was serious trouble, and I believe that was after +the third shot was fired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression of where the shots came from was much the +result of the activity near No. 7? + +Mr. TAGUE. Not when I heard the shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought they had come from the area between Nos. 7 +and 5? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 5 and 7, +toward the general area of "C"? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up near the railroad tracks in that area +after you heard the shots? + +Mr. TAGUE. I looked all around. I looked at the complete area to try +to find out where the disturbance was. And for some reason, after the +third shot, I believe I ducked down back in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Under the railroad tracks? + +Mr. TAGUE. Right. Behind an abutment. And when I stuck my head outside, +the Secret Service car was just starting to pass under the underpass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The car immediately behind the President. Did you see any +evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks +above the triple underpass? + +Mr. TAGUE. None. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent with what you heard +and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor +of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. TAGUE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area? + +Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this +question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a +cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you +were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly? + +Mr. TAGUE. I believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots? + +Mr. TAGUE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing anything else or observing +anything else that day that you think would be helpful to the +Commission, that I haven't asked you about? + +Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can think of. There is lots of things that you +recall about something like that, that you don't recall for certain. +What struck me the most was that everybody said all three shots were +accounted for. I felt very strongly that the third shot hit down there, +and there was the deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the +bridge right there with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit +down there? + +Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted +for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were +accounted for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car? + +Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that +indicated that one of them might have missed. + +Mr. TAGUE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that? + +Mr. TAGUE. That's right; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, is there anything that you can think of +that you think the Commission should know about of what you heard and +saw that day? + +Mr. TAGUE. No; I don't know a thing. The only thing that I saw that I +thought was wrong was that there was about 5 or 6 or 7 minutes in there +before anybody done anything about anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the shots were fired? + +Mr. TAGUE. That was after the shots were fired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean, "Before they did anything"? + +Mr. TAGUE. There was no action taken except for the one policeman that +I could see that stopped his motorcycle, and it fell over on him at +first, and he got it standing upright and drew his gun, and he was the +only one doing anything about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any other policemen around in the area? + +Mr. TAGUE. Not for 4 or 5 minutes. If Oswald was in that building, he +had all the time in the world to calmly walk out of there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently that is just what he did do. Well, if you +can't think of anything else, Mr. Tague, I want to thank you for coming +in and for the cooperation you have given us. We appreciate it very +much. + +Mr. TAGUE. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON + +The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HUDSON. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the +Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order +11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress +No. 137. + +Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an +attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice +of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but +since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present? + +Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the +witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will +you state your full name, please? + +Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the +Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza; +is that correct? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about +November 22, 1963. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at +around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard +where the little toolshed was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were? + +Mr. HUDSON. Elm. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what? + +Mr. HUDSON. Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you +at the time the motorcade came by? + +Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate +is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the +motorcade came along--that's about where I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that +right? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what +you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight +down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about +halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps +are--somewhere near about halfway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission +Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can +you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where +you were standing? + +Mr. HUDSON. Let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--I don't +believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they +are--I recognize it now--here it is right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps? + +Mr. HUDSON. Here they are--right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street +there? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the +steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is +a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps +and I was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were +standing so that we can have that. + +Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that +correct? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on +photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you +saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection. + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age +about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to +park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place +over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and +said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat +down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of +Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on +the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out +and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place +right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the +motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying +to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right +at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that +correct? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a +little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? + +Mr. HUDSON. Right hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car +was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was +right along about this lightpost right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand +side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost +right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this +little crook right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, I +believe, where the first shot was fired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when +the first shot was fired? + +Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car +was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the +shot struck him, when the bullet struck him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether? + +Mr. HUDSON. Three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the +head; is that right? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in +your mind about that, was there? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear +another shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting +there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says, +"Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay +down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was +already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over +on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot +rung out and when I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot +was coming from above and kind of behind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and +then above? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the +ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole +lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he +was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post +that shows in the picture? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see +[indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't +it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture +of a reenactment of the scene. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty +close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right +along in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was +about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was +fired? + +Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the +head by the time the third shot was fired? + +Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was +hit in the neck one time and in the head one time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the +presidential car then; could you see it then? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the +corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, +come off of Houston onto Elm. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the +first shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head, +did you see what he did, what happened in the car? + +Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the +seat with him and pulls him over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat? + +Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first +shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot---- + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to +say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. +Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck +after he had been hit in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could +have been hit? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head +like that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you +know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right, +sir? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when +he was hit in the neck? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck. + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in +photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this +is Elm Street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been +that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can +remember, during the time the President went by? + +Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole +bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion +pictures with a movie camera? + +Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking +pictures. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera? + +Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting +time--now--I did notice a man back over here on this triangle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion +picture camera or not, but he had a camera. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson +Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would +you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk +about it, so we don't get confused? + +Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials. + +Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and +let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing? + +Mr. HUDSON. (No response.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it +that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of +Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before. + +Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe--right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep +right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see +it in that picture at all--I can't. + +Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L. +Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth +Turnpike, keep right." + +Mr. HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right +through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the +other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture--I +don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have +moved that R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. +18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the +time--No. 1. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have +got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, +this is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that +concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here +and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down +right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where +those steps is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the +back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of +the concrete structure there? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this +picture was? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; +yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different +angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. +875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side +of the picture. + +Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1, +immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep +right." does it not? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that +concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree +come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a +live oak tree right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete +embankment there, there's a live oak tree there. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you +make yourself out? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right +here--I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times +Herald paper--I can show you myself in it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning +after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the +assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture. + +Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's +one of them men and myself or not up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are +not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, +Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book +Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to +where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1. + +Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that +picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward +those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could +be one of those men standing right there--I'm not for sure--I wouldn't +say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well +enough to tell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm +Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons +Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been +hit when he was that far back up Elm Street? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the +President get hit in the head? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you +think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the +head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down--if +so--about where was it? + +Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President +get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little +knoll there and you got away. + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up +toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple +underpass? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking +down towards Elm Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that +went across the underpass? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots +came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the +Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and +kind of behind like--in other words, to the left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book +Depository, wouldn't it? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that +way, to tell you the truth about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after +things started? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow +thinks about a million things in one second there at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with +a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on +the overpass or any place else? + +Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all +happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you +about? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally--did you think Governor +Connally had been hit? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. +The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the +car when that happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car +at all? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots? + +Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot +and fell down in the car. + +Mr. HUDSON. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as +the second shot? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any +recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be +fired and how far apart was one shot from the other? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It +seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the +shots were all fired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the +first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any +estimate about that? + +Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes? + +Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the +shots off anyway? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting? + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting +with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns--.22's and things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them +closer together? + +Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security +arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all +handled by the police? + +Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that? + +Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know +they had been routed that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they +came? + +Mr. HUDSON. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you? + +Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you +have told me? + +Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police +Department or the FBI? + +Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse--the +same day that the assassination was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's +office? + +Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for +coming in. I don't have any more questions. + +Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon? + +Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you +cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on +behalf of the Commission. + +Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDGAR LEON SMITH, JR. + +The testimony of Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. was taken at 10:05 a.m., on July +24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SMITH. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney with the +staff of the President's Committee investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony +by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive +Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of +Congress No. 137. + +By the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you +are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 +days' notice of the hearing. I know that you haven't had 3 days' notice +of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday +and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, I presume you +are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney +being present; is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. SMITH. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born? + +Mr. SMITH. Myrtle Springs, Tex., July 9, 1933. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. SMITH. 1800 Scripture, Apartment 6, in Denton, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Dallas policeman? + +Mr. SMITH. A Dallas policeman. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in the vicinity of the Texas +School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came +to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were +given about what you were supposed to do? + +Mr. SMITH. Okay--the dates and times will be just approximately, +because I don't recall exactly, but approximately 9 a.m., November 22, +1963, I attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men +who were designated to work traffic for the President's visit to Dallas. + +At that detail I was given instructions by Captain Lawrence, P. W. +Lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. Some of +these things I was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any +unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the +vicinity of where I was located. He instructed us specifically about +placards. I understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but +if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like +that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of +Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions: +What did you say your name was, Edgar L.? + +Mr. SMITH. E. L.--Edgar L. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you received your instructions that morning, +was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the +buildings in the area? + +Mr. SMITH. Not that I recall--just general--watch out, you know, for +the crowd. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went down to the corner of Elm and Houston and +took up your duty station there at about what time? + +Mr. SMITH. I think it was about approximately 10 o'clock and--I believe +that's about right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And there were two other officers there, isn't that right? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; there were. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what their names were? + +Mr. SMITH. One of them was Welcome Barnett and the other boy was named +Smith too, but I don't recall his initials. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from +the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach? + +Mr. SMITH. I said approximately--oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south +curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there +and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched +the crowd. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the +Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered--and I show you Commission Exhibit +No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be +approximately where you were standing; is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in +that position? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they +finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and +looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just +stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this +intersection here at Elm Street at all? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. +354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas +School Book Depository Building, were you not? + +Mr. SMITH. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there? + +Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. +I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically--any +specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the +windows and what not of the various buildings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any +of those windows? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the motorcade came down Main Street +and turned right on Houston Street; what did you do then? + +Mr. SMITH. I just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep +the people back. I was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the +street here a little bit and I just stood there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were facing west? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go out into the intersection at any point +here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you? + +Mr. SMITH. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west +down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and +started to go down Elm Street, is that right? + +Mr. SMITH. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From where you are standing, could you observe the +railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the +bottom of Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. SMITH. I'm sure I could see them from that location, but I don't +remember, you know, noticing them. I had noticed them earlier in the +day, probably from that location, and I had saw some officers up there, +and other than that, I don't remember seeing anything else. I do +specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what +happened? + +Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that +the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the +third one, I ran down the street here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, +I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they +turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many +people standing there around the corner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street +than Position "A"? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; I +was under these windows here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down +there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to +see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate +of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down +there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it +came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were +when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought +they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked +back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete +structure up behind No. 7? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On Commission Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the railroad tracks there? + +Mr. SMITH. That's true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And to the north of No. 7? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you ran down in there and what did you do when you +got down there? + +Mr. SMITH. I ran down here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down on Elm Street? + +Mr. SMITH. And I ran up to here and I couldn't get over so I went back +around then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went farther down Elm Street and right behind this +concrete structure here; is that correct? + +Mr. SMITH. And on back into there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And into the parking area behind the concrete structure +there at No. 7? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, and there's where I stayed for an hour or so and after +I got around there, they started checking everybody that was going +in and out of the--well, I don't know who they was checking because +there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county +officers back there plus the policemen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That area was fairly searched by the officers that came +down there? + +Mr. SMITH. It was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't find anything down there that seemed to +have anything to do with the shot that you heard? + +Mr. SMITH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure you heard three shots? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they came from? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir--like I said--the first two were just--I mulled it +over in my mind and I thought it was firecrackers and I thought to +myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then +it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially +after I ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired +that I got to the corner, and all I saw was the Presidential car going +under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you left the general area marked +"C" here, on Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this +extends for some distance over to the north and I went all the way down +the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and +took a position right down here where No. 1 is now--this was about an +hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and I don't guess +it was that long, because they had just got the word--I had already +gotten back around here when Officer Tippit was shot and we got the +word over the police radio, and they took off and I stayed in this area +for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and I don't +remember when I really left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, after you searched behind the north and west of the +School Book Depository Building, you came back up to position No. 1? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You then remained in the general area of the School Book +Depository Building for some period, and then you were relieved from +duty? + +Mr. SMITH. Well, I went back to work again on my regular duty. I had +been working evenings, and I had to report to work--it was 6 o'clock, I +think, and after that I went directly to work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody or anything that you could +associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than +you have already described? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have thought about it many times. I didn't see +any smoke or anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And at no time did you see any activity down on the +railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination? + +Mr. SMITH. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is what you heard that day consistent with the +proposition that the shots came from the School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. SMITH. They could have come from there and they could not--I just +don't know. Where I was standing it just sounded like it was all round +there. When I first thought--I don't know whether it actually came from +here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--I don't know +whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was +a good place for them to come from and I guess that's the reason I ran +down there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down around No. 7 pointed out on this Exhibit No. 354? + +Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have no earthly idea where they actually came from. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming +in. + +Mr. SMITH. That's okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER + +The testimony of Abraham Zapruder was taken at 1 p.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please? + +Do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. What is your name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I +am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take +your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the +Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the +joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. + +Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have your +attorney present, should you desire to have him here. You are entitled +to 3 days' notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions +you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. Did +you receive the 3 days' notice of the hearing? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I was out of town--I was in New York and my secretary +called--she called me and told me that she made an appointment +for me and that's about all that I know, Mr. Liebeler. The other +proceedings--I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that you are willing to go ahead with your +testimony today since you are here. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Abraham Zapruder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's spelled [spelling] Z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? Is that +correct? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Home address? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. 3909 Marquette. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. In Dallas--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you in business here in Dallas, Mr. Zapruder? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you in? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Manufacturing ladies dresses. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The manufacture of ladies dresses? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you took some motion pictures at the +time of the assassination? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us about the circumstances under which you +did that, where you were at the time and what happened? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what you saw. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that +was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have +my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her +I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she +urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I +thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is +right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's +just across--501 Elm Street, but I figured--I may go down and get +better pictures, and I walked down, I believe it was Elm Street and +on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying +to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one +place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very +much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or +whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the +underpass that was a square of concrete--I don't know what you call +it--maybe about 4 feet high. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit +No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing +there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up +immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep +Right"? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl +that works in my office. She was up there, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this +concrete abutment there? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--she was right behind me and that's from +where I took the pictures. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, +can't you? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I can't distinguish myself being--I know I was +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time +you were there? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; I was there and I would say this couldn't be anybody +else, unless--if this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed +now or changed--I would say that's me. That's the first time I have +seen that. Were these pictures ever published in a magazine--there were +pictures like that I suppose--actually? + +Mr. LIEBELER. This picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures +that is being sold down here in Dallas by a fellow named Willis, I +believe his name is Phil Willis. He has a series of slides that are +available and it's picture No. 5 of those slides in which you can see +yourself back there. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That must be it because there's another couple back +there--I took some from there and I was shooting some of the pictures +to start my roll from the beginning. I didn't want to have a blank and +I shot some, in fact, they have it--the Federal Bureau of Investigation +have those pictures. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the +motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did +it not? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple +underpass; is that correct? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade +started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in +from Houston Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened as you took the pictures. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was +almost in line--I was standing up here and I was shooting through a +telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine +it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean +over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area). + +Mr. LIEBELER. Grab himself on the front of his chest? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Right--something like that. In other words, he was +sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like +that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot +and you saw the President slump over? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a +moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when +you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw--I don't +believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I +had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I +saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I +started--I can hardly talk about it [the witness crying]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of +water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't +help it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. +Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing. + +Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you +heard altogether. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my +estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The +whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you +see--I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it +to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard +a third shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him +leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, +you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," +and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still +shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even +know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down +from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking +toward--back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they +killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know +what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, +what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't +know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on +just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," +and finally got to my office and my secretary--I told her to call the +police or the Secret Service--I don't know what she was doing, and +that's about all. I was very much upset. Naturally, I couldn't imagine +such a thing being done. I just went to my desk and stopped there until +the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the +films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help--I +didn't know what. + +As to what happened--I remember the police were running behind me. +There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn't +realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from--that it came from that +height. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, +you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you +and down the railroad track behind that, is that right? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle +cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running +right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they +thought it came from right behind me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from +which these shots came? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, +you can't tell when something is in line--it could come from anywhere, +but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right +in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from +here and it could come from there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked +down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of +the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From the direction behind you? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the +moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was +really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed +him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police +started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what +direction the shots did come from actually? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicated that they could have come also from +behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, +because they could have been from behind or even from the front. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it could have been--in other words if you have +a point--you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's +concerned. I have no way of determining what direction the bullet was +going. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which +the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you +had seen? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo +which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind +of--it had a sound all over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And with the buildings around there, too? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, the reverberation was such that a sound--as it +would vibrate--it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a +backfire--in other words, I didn't from the first sound, from him +leaning over--I couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the +second--I think it was the second shot. I don't know whether they +proved anything--they claim he was hit--that the first bullet went +through him and hit Connally or something like that--I don't know how +that is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there are many different theories about that. One +thing I would like you to do now--we have a series--a little book here +that is Commission Exhibit No. 885 and it consists of a number of +frames from motion pictures and I want to show you certain numbers of +them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like +they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it +as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame +pictures of the pictures that you took. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, +for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take +stills--when you move--did you ever have binoculars and every time you +move everything is exaggerated in the move--that's one reason why they +are kind of blurred--the movement. Now, you want me to identify whether +these are my pictures? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. +185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole +book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures +that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures +that you took from your motion picture camera? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were +taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how +to express myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they were. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it looks like them--that's when they turned in from +Elm Street. Is that it? I'm trying to visualize it. This is taking it +from the opposite side of me, is it, where I would have been taking +it, because I see this structure--I have been around there and--or +these--this couldn't be here--where did they get this in there--how did +they get this in there, if I was taking the pictures where did they get +this in there? That shouldn't be there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the thing back up behind on Dealy Plaza, I think, +isn't it? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. They have one there, too? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, I think there is. Now, if you will look at Hudson +Exhibit No. 1, you will see that there is some kind of concrete +structure there and is a different kind from that figure. It has bigger +holes in it. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--in the back of this here, that's where it +is--that's what I thought it was--that's where I got mixed up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought that the concrete latticework on the +individual pictures in Commission Exhibit No. 885---- + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Now I see it--that's where they have moved now the +flowers and all that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--I have to state this for the record--so they can +understand what we are talking about--you confused it with the concrete +lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in +Commission Exhibit No. 885, with the larger and obviously different +concrete structure in the background of Hudson Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, that--there is Elm Street there--this is a corner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically here--let me show you the ones that +have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This +is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and +turned there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there--the shot +wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here? + +Mr. LIEBELER. (no response). + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of +course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter +and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of +detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of +the frames, sir? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And 186 is similar also? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I've got a list of them here that I want to ask you +about--picture 207 and turn on over to this picture. It appears that a +sign starts to come in the picture--there was a sign in the picture. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow--I +told them I was going to get the whole view and I must have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But the sign was in the way? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; but I must have neglected one part--I know what has +happened--I think this was after that happened--something had happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you looked at your pictures +yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear +between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the +motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the motorcade comes behind it. Now, what about +picture No. 210--however--there is no No. 210 in here. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about No. 222? Now, in No. 222 you can see the +President's car coming out from behind the sign. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you can see Governor Connally right there in that +center seat, I believe? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; Governor Connally--yes--these are all the same +pictures--I remember the car was kind of buried and I was kind of low +and I don't know how I got that view--I didn't get just the full view +of the shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn to 225 and there the car is coming further out +from behind the sign. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still the same part of the sequence? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can now see the President for the first time. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; that's the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The President appears to have his hand up by his throat +as he is just coming from behind the sign. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it looks like he was hit--it seems--there--somewhere +behind the sign. You see, he is still sitting upright. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Do we have the sequence--the next frames? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it will be No. 227 and his hand comes up even more +and he starts to move a little to his left. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Apparently. And they started speeding the car then +to--but he is still sitting up here. Is that still the President here? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in picture No. 228--he still appears to have his +hand up and in No. 229 it's even more pronounced. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture 230 +he has raised both hands up. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. It looks to me like he went like this--did he go to his +throat--I don't remember--I thought he went like this [holding both +hands on the left side of his chest]. Did it show? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn over to picture 231 here--these still appear +to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; you get about 16 per second and I think my camera +was moving a little fast, maybe 18 frames per second, you see, we have +a lot of pictures on there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And 235 is there. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; we've got that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In 235 both hands are up by his throat there or up to the +top of his chest and Mrs. Kennedy is looking at him. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. To me it looks like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more +sharply perhaps? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Toward her--there are so many frames, of course, this is +probably his first reaction, but he leaned over--it would be after the +shot was fired, after I heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to +the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He moved over to his left and pulled his hands there? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat +in this direction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does picture 235 appear to be one of the pictures that +was taken from your sequence? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about 240--let's turn over to 240 and there he has +turned his head toward the left a little bit more. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. There's only about 100 frames--they are so close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Five frames? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Five frames is nothing--I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about 249? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. 249--I just wonder if it was the motion that he went +back with that I don't remember--it looks like he has got his hand on +his head--I don't remember seeing that. Of course, the pictures would +show. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it +down and pick them out. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it's hard. We run them in single frames--and to get +the main shot--it's hard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's turn over to picture 255--these all do look +like they are from your film? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; they are--I know this--I have seen it so many times. +In fact, I used to have nightmares. The thing would come every night--I +wake up and see this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about 255--what about that one? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's still the same series. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's still the same series--they keep moving along. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And let's look at No. 213--as we go along here--then he +does start moving sharply to the left. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been +just 2 or 3 seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over +and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself +at the left side. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; moving toward Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's what impressed me. Now, what number are you on? + +Mr. LIEBELER. 313--you remember that one? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That was--that was the horrible one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here +as you look through it, are your pictures? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I +understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you +get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. +Sorrels, is that correct? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and +one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the Secret Service? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they +told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done +with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, +I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a +few times to show them to different people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the +original film? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. No; I don't have that at all--I don't have any at all. +They were sold to Time and Life magazines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You sold that to Life magazine? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in one aspect of this and I +would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid +you for that film. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. For the film? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I just wonder whether I should answer it or not +because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price--it's a +question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or +are they not going to use it, so I will say I really don't know how to +answer that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not going to even urge you to answer the +question. We will ask it and if you would rather not answer it--the +Commission feels it would be helpful. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I received $25,000, as you know, and I have given that to +the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence with a suggestion for Mrs. +Tippit. You know that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know that--you received $25,000? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. $25,000 was paid and I have given it to the Firemen's and +Policemen's Fund. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You gave the whole $25,000? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This was all over the world. I got letters from all +over the world and newspapers--I mean letters from all over the world. +It was all over the world--I am surprised--that you don't know it--I +don't like to talk about it too much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your answer very much. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I haven't done anything, the way I have given it, at a +time like this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, +but I want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful +things to the work of the Commission that we could possibly have had +because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people +in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment--by +comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop +with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I understand--and I am willing to be helpful but I am +sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. I am willing to be helpful +but I wish this would never have happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I know they have taken my camera to Washington. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Bell & Howell camera, isn't that right? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned it over to the FBI and they have made +tests on it? + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; and then Bell & Howell wanted it for their archives +and I thought they were through with it and let them have it. In +return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector +which was given to the Golden Age Group. It's a place where old folks +have a home. I asked them to donate something. I didn't want the +camera. I didn't want anything for myself. Then the FBI wanted the +camera again and I referred them to the Bell & Howell people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the +Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the +frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames +fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 +frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 +rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time +it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim +it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication +there were two? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the +Commission, Mr. Zapruder. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. I am only sorry I broke down--I didn't know I was going +to do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, I want to thank you very much, for the +Commission, for coming down. It has been very helpful. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I am ashamed of myself. I didn't know I was going +to break down and for a man to--but it was a tragic thing, and when you +started asking me that, and I saw the thing all over again, and it was +an awful thing--I know very few people who had seen it like that--it +was an awful thing and I loved the President, and to see that happen +before my eyes--his head just opened up and shot down like a dog--it +leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, +and thank you very much. I enjoyed meeting you very much. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. All right, any time you want some more help you can call +on me and I will be glad to come in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you a lot. + +Mr. ZAPRUDER. Goodbye. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PERDUE WILLIAM LAWRENCE + +The testimony of Perdue William Lawrence was taken at 9:15 p.m., on +July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Burt W. +Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general +counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy, and the Commission has been set up by Executive +order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. These +two official acts have directed the Commission to investigate into the +assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, +to evaluate all the facts we find and report back to President Johnson +upon them. We have asked you to come here in particular this evening, +Captain Lawrence, because we are interested in the security precautions +that were taken both in connection with the protection of President +Kennedy and in the prospective transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald to the +county jail. I might say that there are a set of rules and regulations +that have been promulgated by the Commission and under these rules +and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. You +are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days in advance from the +Commission. It has been the practice with all of the police officers +who have testified that we have simply written a letter to Chief Curry +and he has been good enough to make you people available. I assume that +you haven't received proper notice, and I will ask you at this time if +you are willing to waive that notice? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Certainly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Since you are willing to waive the notice, if you will +raise your right hand I will administer the oath to you. Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not my initials--my full name? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Your full name. + +Captain LAWRENCE. Perdue [spelling]. P-e-r-d-u-e William Lawrence +[spelling], L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Lawrence? + +Captain LAWRENCE. 1623 South Clinton. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? + +Captain LAWRENCE. In August--1911--August 18. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I am. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Captain of police. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the police department? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Nineteen years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you captain of police on November 22, 1963? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in charge of any particular department? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Traffic at this particular time. I am in charge of +the accident prevention bureau of the Dallas Police Department, but my +specific assignment was traffic control for the Presidential motorcade. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a special 1-day assignment that you had? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Well, in this particular case--it was for this +particular occasion. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any other person in the department who regularly +was concerned with what you call traffic control? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; Capt. R. A. Thompson. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why you handled the traffic control +responsibilities for the Presidential motorcade rather than Captain +Thompson? + +Captain LAWRENCE. None that I know of; none that I can think of except +that Chief Batchelor saw me and said, "I want you to get together +with Lieutenant Southard." Lieutenant Southard works for Captain +Thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner +men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, I assume that this was +the reason that it was turned over to me. Normally on parade or a +special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of Captain +Thompson, but because of the escort part of it, I am assuming that +this was why it was given to me. I would like to also add that Captain +Thompson and I work evenings on alternate Friday and Saturday nights, +and I was scheduled to work daytime hours on Friday, November 22, and +this may also be a reason I was given this particular assignment. +Captain Thompson did work evenings on Friday, November 22, 1963, and +Saturday, November 23, 1963. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you participated in other traffic control projects in +the past? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I had. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been involved in one that involved the +President of the United States or any other important official who +required special protection? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In your experience in the Dallas Police Department, had +there ever been a time when there had been a President or an important +person who had come through who required special protection? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; but not in which I was directly assigned to any +duties. When President Kennedy came to town to visit Mr. Rayburn at +Baylor Hospital, Lieutenant Curtis was in charge of that detail and +I don't know if I was on a day off or what it was, but I was not in +charge of that detail at all. I made none of those arrangements. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. From whom did you receive your instructions in connection +with the duties that you were to carry out? + +Captain LAWRENCE. My immediate superior was Deputy Chief R. H. Lunday, +and I received my instructions from Chief Lunday and Asst. Chief +Batchelor; both of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first told that you were to be in charge of +this traffic control? + +Captain LAWRENCE. The first day was on a Tuesday--November 19. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who told you at that time? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Batchelor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did Chief Batchelor tell you at that time that +your responsibilities would be? + +Captain LAWRENCE. He told me he wanted me to go over this route and +to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on +the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and +handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount +of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more +than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning +movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to +certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to +have stationed on the overpasses. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted +on the overpass? + +Captain LAWRENCE. He gave me the names of no men. He told me to make +the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with +Chief Lunday or I went immediately to Chief Lunday and asked for the +assistance of Lt. W. F. Southard because he--his men would be directly +involved also in these assignments. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice you have a list in your hand. Is that the list +Chief Batchelor gave you? + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's the list that Chief Batchelor gave me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our +file? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; not a bit. I would like to add that it was not +requested that I bring any papers with me. I did bring with me some +original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing +my memory, and I see no reason why my superiors would object to any +requests made by this Committee. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now turn this over and I will state for the record +that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly 2-1/2 by +5 inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on +it and I'm going to mark this on the back. + +Captain LAWRENCE. I believe this to be the handwriting of Chief +Batchelor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark this Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, +July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. In handing this memo to you, did Chief +Batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were +supposed to do? + +Captain LAWRENCE. He was stationing the men on the overpass to see that +no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the +motorcade when the President passed under it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than stationing people at intersections, were you +given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the 18th of November did you later receive +further instructions from your superiors? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you next receive instructions? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I next received instructions well, during the week we +discussed this with Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor--certain +assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not +directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular +corner. + +I might add that when Lieutenant Southard and I went over this route, +we found one intersection open and which was on Record Street, which +raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have +written in the word "Record." + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's right--that's my handwriting and during that +week I was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding +the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be +coming across at the time that the Presidential motorcade was passing +through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. These were grade crossings that you are talking about? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Grade crossing--yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor +were you given any special instructions about the protection of the +President? + +Captain LAWRENCE. None. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you received some instructions from +one of your superiors? + +Captain LAWRENCE. The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the +motorcade assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived--I +asked how we would escort this motorcade. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And with whom did you discuss that? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time--no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told about the purpose of the officers that +were being provided, if anything? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle +officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside +the President's car and the Vice President's car, and some of the +others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many +officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had +prepared a list of 18 solo motorcycle officers, this included three +solo sergeants. + +I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached +Stemmons Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo +motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes +waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons Expressway +would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle +officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons +Freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, +would pull past the Presidential car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this include blocking oncoming traffic? + +Captain LAWRENCE. This would stop all oncoming traffic on Stemmons +Freeway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All the way to the Trade Mart? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No, sir--this would stop all traffic that would +be northbound on Stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on Stemmons +Expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came +onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the +motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle +officers after all the motorcade was headed for the Trade Mart, that +then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would +keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in +the southbound lanes? + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that conversation take place? + +Captain LAWRENCE. That conversation took place about the 20th of +November--2 days before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders +after that? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the +first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards +to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to +the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the +conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of +the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of +radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, +and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of +the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had +attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and +I listened in on most of the discussion and I heard one of the Secret +Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any motorcycle +officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he +would want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as +Chief Batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle +this--how plans had been made to cover the escort. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special +precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the +President? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more +around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and +Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then +chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they +would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade +route, especially in the downtown area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for? + +Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but +they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this +had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, +these people were already meeting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any instructions as to what the +men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and +elsewhere along the route? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I discussed this with Chief Lunday two or three +times and Chief Batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever +took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with +placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route +should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might +throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the President +at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person +would be arrested immediately. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion between you and your superior +officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or +the tops of the buildings? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No, no instructions were given to me about my +men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control +instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block +off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the +motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other men who were going to have other +responsibilities? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, it was my understanding that the other +responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the +special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation +division. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they going to be stationed along the routes? + +Captain LAWRENCE. It was my understanding that they would be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each +particular location? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I was not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. With specific reference to Dealey Plaza and the area of +Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository, did you have any idea +of how many Secret Service or detective bureau people or CID people +would be in that area? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any +member of the Secret Service about watching buildings or performing +other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have +just mentioned? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall +that the Secret Service did discuss? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate +in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient +personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these +detectives' assignments were not the ones that I was at that time +primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate +precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all +of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly +interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that I was +listening for. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking +precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President +that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people +throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that +the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these +motorcycle officers alongside the President's car, he said, "No, +these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward +the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was +endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun +their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he +mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and +those words were mentioned. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the +President spelled out in any certain details? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar +with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau +commanders. Now, I didn't know until that time who was going to be in +charge at the Trade Mart. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is that that you have reference to? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. on November 21. I knew +at that time that Captain Souter would be in charge, and when I was so +advised, after this meeting I asked Souter if I could meet him down at +the Trade Mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the Trade +Mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there +and it had also been discussed with me--I might add one thing that I +had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain +with the Presidential car while he was in the Trade Mart. This was told +to me by Assistant Chief Batchelor--to the best of my knowledge. + +After this conference, I asked Captain Souter if I could meet him down +at the Trade Mart and he said he would be down there and then I called +Sgt. S. Q. Bellah [spelling] B-e-l-l-a-h. I called him on the phone at +home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going +to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. He met me at the Trade Mart +with Stavis Ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to +be leading the Presidential motorcade and I met with both of them down +there on the evening of the 21st, so that I would know how they would +come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said, that your principal concern +then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly? + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was no special attention brought on your part to +the question of actually protecting the President other than from some +impediment to the actual movement of the automobile. + +Captain LAWRENCE. Mainly--my understanding was mainly that my +assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be +involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you +gave in stationing your men along the route? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I did and I might add another thing that I have +overlooked here, that Chief Batchelor had also instructed me to have +one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the +Stemmons overpass at Industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and +no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything +down when the motorcade came off of Stemmons Freeway to make its turn +onto Industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had +specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well +too. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you given any general instructions to go out and look +along the route for special security problems that might arise along +the route? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I was not, but I did do this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that regard? + +Captain LAWRENCE. This is getting ahead, but after the detail was put +out in the detail room and I had talked to the motorcycle officers +and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, I +then went out to Love Field with Maj. George Tropolis of the police +reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the +arrival of the President and to see that all the motorcycle officers +were at the proper location, I had already given a copy of the detail +to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were +out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put +their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the +Presidential plane arrived and President Kennedy got off of the plane, +I saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and I knew +that Chief Lumpkin was going to--I had been told was going to be ahead +of this motorcade--I got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead +of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of +course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially +in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see +the President. I didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we +had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not +at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. Not every +intersection was covered, but as I went along the route, this didn't +look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the +streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. +As I came up to many of these intersections--I slowed my car down and +I was in uniform, but I was driving a plain car which I drive, and I +told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not +let any vehicles cross because I could hear Chief Curry on channel 2 +giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and I knew a +few blocks ahead of him would be Chief Lumpkin, and I knew that I would +have to stay considerably ahead of him. Although I was not given this +assignment--I proceeded on this route, and I followed it on down to the +Trade Mart. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did +you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed +along the route as to what they should do? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I gave them those instructions on the morning of +November 22 and I had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and +some notes that I had written. I first told the men the approximate +time of the arrival of the President's plane at Love Field. Then, I +went over the route that the motorcade would take to the Trade Mart and +then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the Trade Mart +and then to leave for Love Field. + +I stated that there would be some assignments which we would call +assignment No. 1, assignment No. 2 and assignment No. 3. Some officers +would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would +have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by +Lieutenant Southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along +the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. I then +covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants +would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were +to contact them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave +them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep +people from running out into the motorcade of cars? + +Captain LAWRENCE. They are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and +I also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for +persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but +that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so +that no one threw anything at the President, that there would be no +repetition of the Ambassador Stevenson incident, that President Kennedy +was the President of the United States and entitled to the courtesy and +protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was +done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that +they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific +instructions. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at +a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to +these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be +looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned +around and facing the crowd? + +Captain LAWRENCE. He would either be facing the crowd or facing the +street, depending on the necessity at that time. He was given no +specific instructions except that he was not told specifically that he +would face the crowd on the traffic assignments, but he was told that +he was to watch the crowd, so I wouldn't say that the man--that all of +the men on the route were specifically instructed to face the crowd. I +gave them no such instructions. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove down the route preceding the motorcade, did +you observe just exactly what these men were doing? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; most of the men were watching the oncoming +traffic and keeping it moving. They were keeping this oncoming traffic +moving. Some of the men were trying to push the crowd back, especially +in the downtown area. There were many of them facing the crowds there +and trying to push the crowds back, and this was, I imagine, about a +mile ahead of the motorcade. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As a practical matter--stationing as you did two men at +each intersection generally--could two men have effectively prevented +anyone who was bent upon attacking the President, could they have +effectively prevented him from rushing out and doing something? + +Captain LAWRENCE. If they saw them in time, but two men, in as large +a crowd as that--these men had all they could handle, with as large a +crowd as we had turn out for that motorcade. It was a full-time job +keeping the crowd back, and this was what the officers were trying to +do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given any thought, or do you have any suggestions +as to how a police department the size of the Dallas Police Department +could have stationed more men along the route so that they could +have effectively--not only kept the crowd back but could have been +effectively on the lookout for people who might want to rush out and do +something? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Well, looking back on it, I would say, with the +manpower that we had for this particular job and the crowd that turned +out, that without the use of precautions, these men would have a very +difficult time keeping a crowd back like that. This crowd was an +enthusiastic crowd, as you know, as you probably have heard many times, +and it was a bigger crowd than I expected. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it practical for a city the size of Dallas to use +barricades or ropes along the motorcade, the length of the one that the +President traveled? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Well, with the length of this motorcade, I don't +believe that we could have on this short a notice, and this is my +opinion. We would have to go to another source to get sufficient +barricades to handle it, because I don't think we have that many +barricades--I don't think that many barricades would be available for a +motorcade as long as this one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police department maintain barricades? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; the barricades are obtained from the public works +department. We have been able to request barricades to barricade off +streets at certain events on holidays and parks. We have asked for +barricades and we have always received barricades. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to your men with +respect to watching windows? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to the people +who were stationed along Elm and Houston at the intersection of Elm +and Houston, the man at Houston in particular, did you direct any +particular attention to those men who were stationed there? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not make the individual assignments, but +as I said, the only thing I did was make these remarks as to these +particular assignments in stating that they would be made by these +officers, and, of course, there were some assignments made in this area +and there were also some assignments made to the overpass. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would be in the general orders or +the general background and training of the police officers who were +stationed along this route which would make the individual police +officer believe that it was his responsibility to watch the windows of +buildings? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I don't recall any specific instructions of that kind +ever being given on an assignment of this type, because--again--as I +said, with the manpower that was assigned and the crowd they had to +control, that the officer had all he could take care of in maintaining +crowd control of the people on the streets and watching the crowd there. + +I am talking about the men that were assigned for these specific +assignments here. I assume that some instructions have been given to +some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to +the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically +assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my +assumption that this was a part of the assignments given. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the duties of the men at the intersections be so +burdensome prior to the time that the motorcade actually arrived that +they couldn't keep their eyes on the windows and other places such as +that? In other words, did they have anything to do of substance until +shortly before the motorcade arrived? + +Captain LAWRENCE. They had everything they could do to take care +of the crowds when I came through there before the President's +motorcade--keeping the crowds back, in fact, when I was listening +on channel 2 I heard Inspector Sawyer asking for more help for men +downtown to try to keep the crowds back so the motorcade could get +through there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When an officer is at an intersection for the purpose +of crowd control, do his problems begin as soon as the crowd begins +to form, regardless of how long it is before the President is going +to arrive, or does the problem only become a substantial one when he +realizes the President is 5 minutes away? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I think when he first goes on assignment, that's when +he's prepared to handle the crowd. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there a danger that the crowd is going to move +out into the street at any point as soon as it gets large enough where +the people start to push and shove? + +Captain LAWRENCE. This did happen in the downtown area and this was +substantially before the President's car actually arrived. This is why, +I believe, and I am assuming, because I was ahead of this motorcade, +but I heard Chief Curry ask these motorcycle officers that were way up +ahead to drop back, and some of them that were alongside and to the +rear of the President, to pull up alongside his car, and Chief Curry +had some of these motorcycle officers that were supposed to be about a +couple of blocks ahead of this motorcade, he asked them to drop back. +He asked the lead motorcycles that were supposed to be a half block +ahead of the escort--he asked them to drop back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it fair to say that without specific +instructions, that an officer would not watch the windows of buildings? +He would not do it as a result of routine orders that prevail in the +police department and his general training. + +Captain LAWRENCE. I would say in a case like this that an officer +should do this and this should be part of his responsibility on the +job, but I also have to say he was not given any specific instructions +to do that as far as buildings were concerned, but I'm talking about +the men assigned to this traffic assignment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other specific instructions besides watching +the windows of buildings that, as a result of your experience on +November 22, you think should be given to police officers who have +traffic assignments? + +Captain LAWRENCE. As a result of what happened on November 22, I +believe that where a Head of State, the President of the United States, +comes to Dallas and is in a motorcade or a parade, that the streets +should be barricaded or roped off and that officers--more officers than +were stationed be stationed along the route to control the crowd. I +mean, of course, this is looking back--as I told you before--there were +more people along the route--in fact, I was surprised--they had even +stopped their cars all along Stemmons Freeway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we are trying to benefit from hindsight, when +I asked you if in looking back you could make some suggestions for the +future. + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could a police force the size of the Dallas police force +have found more officers to man the route? + +Captain LAWRENCE. With a route as long as this, I doubt that they +could have, because some of these officers were given second and third +assignments and this motorcade route, as long as it was, was in my +opinion--this was too long of a motorcade route to give the proper +security, and our department wasn't big enough to handle an event--of +course, this is hindsight again--and an event like this with a route as +long as this to cover all of the cross streets, because we certainly +didn't cover all of the cross streets along the route except the +downtown area. We covered some of the main ones and there were other +streets that were not covered and the people themselves block the +streets for the motorcade. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have with you here a list of the assignments you made +on November 22? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you give that to us so we can mark it for +identification? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir; would you mind me explaining a couple of +them? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at all, if you think it is necessary. + +Captain LAWRENCE. There were some changes made. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this as Capt. W. P. Lawrence +Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Do you want to indicate what +clarification you would make in the assignments that are shown on +Exhibit No. 2? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the morning of November 22, the streets were +still wet and it was raining that morning and I talked to Asst. Chief +Batchelor about some of the motorcade assignments and he agreed with me +that no car, no motorcycle officer, should pass the President's car, +so we reassigned some officers indicated by asterisks on this detail +to cover the Stemmons Freeway traffic lanes to the rear of the escort +to prevent any vehicles from passing the presidental party, and that's +shown on the detail. Also, as I say--you can see the asterisks here +beside these officers and they were changed. Also, I felt that because +of the curvature of Stemmons Freeway and these people coming over a +crest and around a curve--that they would be on top of these motorcycle +officers and would not have warning enough. I discussed placing a +couple of the three-wheel motorcycle officers up further on Stemmons +Expressway, which would be back farther south, so that when they saw +from the top of Stemmons Expressway this motorcade approaching, they +could start stopping the traffic before it came around the curve and +down the hill because of the speed. For this reason, two officers were +stationed--their assignment was changed and they were placed--they were +stationed up on Stemmons Freeway for the purpose of starting to stop +this traffic themselves. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else on there that you think should be +clarified? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening--I'm going back a day, but on the +evening of November 21, I was handed a list of additional men from the +Third Patrol Platoon to work traffic assignments. Here is the list--you +can have this list. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Captain LAWRENCE. This necessitated me making some changes so that +the three-wheel motorcycle officers could be taken off of corner +assignments and placed on patrol assignments in the downtown area, and +those assignments, or some of those patrol assignments are shown on the +last page of this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Captain LAWRENCE. The changes you can see were made in ink. There was +one particular assignment, on page 3, that we had eliminated because we +understood that the Highland Park Police would cover Lemmon and Loma +Alto and then when these additional men were given to us, two officers +were placed back on this assignment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked the additional list of 19 men, which list +you received on November 22, as Capt. P. W. Lawrence, July 24, 1964, +Exhibit No. 3. Let me ask you some specific questions about it--about +the men who were stationed in the area of Dealey Plaza. Did you +question any of these men after the President was shot to determine +whether or not they had seen anyone in the windows of the Texas School +Book Depository Building? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; however, when I questioned the men--the men had +already been--one man that I questioned had already been questioned +by Mr. Sorrels and this would be Officer J. E. Murphy and two other +men that I questioned were Officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White. I +questioned J. W. Foster regarding the men that were alongside him on +the overpass, on the triple underpass where the President was to go. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Sergeant Harkness? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't question Sergeant Harkness. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer King--W. K. King? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer J. B. Allen? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer W. H. Denham? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer W. E. Barnett? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer J. M. Smith? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer E. L. Smith? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anyone in the police department who +questioned those men after the assassination to determine whether +or not they had been observing the windows of the Texas School Book +Depository Building and had seen anybody in those buildings? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I know that all of these men have been questioned and +that they were calling all of these men to be questioned and that this +investigation was being handled by the Secret Service, and this is one +reason why I did not question these men. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you received any information that any of these men +did see anybody at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository +Building, particularly on the sixth floor? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I have never received any information from any of +these men that they saw anybody up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have answered that you did not conduct an +investigation of these men and that you thought the Secret Service did; +let me ask the further question--has the police department conducted an +investigation of these men who were at the intersections of Main and +Houston and Elm and Houston? + +Captain LAWRENCE. To my knowledge, they were--there was an +investigation requested. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By the police department? + +Captain LAWRENCE. By the police department--that reports were requested +from these men, by the supervisory officers, but--and by the inspectors +and the deputy chiefs--but I was not given any such assignment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me turn to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald and ask +you when did you first receive instructions as to the moving of Lee +Harvey Oswald to the county jail? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I received no original instructions on the movement +of Lee Harvey Oswald. I was scheduled to be off on Saturday and Sunday. +These were my days off. On Saturday at approximately 10 a.m., I came +down in civilian clothes and I observed a large crowd of people around +the county courthouse and I had knowledge from what I had heard on +television and I had seen on television and heard on the radio that +charges had already been filed against Lee Harvey Oswald, so it was +my assumption that he would be transferred to the county jail, but I +had no knowledge of it; and seeing this large crowd gathering down at +this part of town, I immediately called the traffic office and started +trying to contact Sergeant Harkness and finally got him down there and +told him to get some other traffic officers down there and I remained +down at this location until approximately 6:30 p.m. when Captain +Thompson came on duty. While down there and during the afternoon, I +noticed there was a large crowd gathered and there seemed to be a need +for barricades or ropes or something to keep these people behind these +ropes and across the street from the county jail, and I called Chief +Batchelor's office, and Officer Art Hammett answered the phone and I +told Art Hammett there was a large crowd down there, and this was early +in the afternoon--I would say about 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon on +Saturday--and there was a large crowd there and I believe that ropes or +barricades were necessary to keep these people out of the streets and +across the street at Dealey Plaza, and Hammett said he would try to get +in touch with Chief Batchelor and let me know. + +On Saturday afternoon I got a call on the radio, and, of course, it +was a three-wheel motorcycle with the radio going, and Officer Hammett +asked me and I am assuming he was in the dispatcher's office at the +time, and he asked me if the ropes that I requested were to block off +the street for motor vehicle traffic and I told him it was not, and he +said, "Well, permission is granted." Then, we borrowed some rope from +the sheriff's office and we roped off this block across the street from +the county jail. We also got some barricades from Elm and Houston where +a--where part of the street had been blocked off there anyway, and we +blocked off the sidewalks on the county jail side--at Houston and Elm +Street, and Main Street, and the only persons we allowed in this area +were television, radio, and news media people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take any further precautions on Sunday? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes. By the way, when Captain Thompson came on, I +contacted him by radio and asked him to meet me down there and he +relieved me and our solo motorcycle detail was placed down there in +the evening. When I got home I called Chief Lunday at home and I told +him--that's when I heard that the transfer was supposed to be made +the following morning, that there would be a need for some more men +down there and that I would be down there and I would get as many +men as I could on the location. So on Sunday morning I arrived down +there and I'm going to guess at the time as approximately 8 a.m. I +first went by the office and I picked up some police reserves in my +car and took about four of them down there with me, and then I had +some motorcycle officers that were not already stationed--upstairs on +the third floor--and I had them meet me down there too. It was still +roped off and the crowds started gathering and I personally instructed +Sergeant Steigel to go down there and Sergeant Bellah, and most of +the men down there, I personally instructed them that when Oswald was +brought in down there, that they were not to look at Oswald, that +they were to face the crowd and they were not to worry about anything +but keeping their eyes on that crowd, because I estimated there were +approximately 500 people down there at that time, and these officers +were specifically instructed on that. And when Chief Lunday showed +up at approximately--sometime between 9:30 and 10, he showed up--he +arrived in civilian clothes--he saw that there was a large crowd there +too and we were concerned about the security of Oswald, and I expressed +this opinion to Chief Lunday and Lieutenant Southard also. There with +me at the time too was Captain Solomon, who also showed up down there. +The only time that I knew that anything had happened was when Sheriff +Bill Decker came out of his office and came by the cameras there where +the vehicle was supposed to enter the county jail entrance there, and +he waved for me to come over to him. I was across the street at that +time and he told me that Oswald had been shot in the basement of the +city hall. So, after this was confirmed, we then sent some more men to +Parkland Hospital to seal it off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the stationing of men +along the route that it was expected that Oswald was to follow? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any specific instructions from any of +your superiors on stationing your men around Dealey Plaza or the county +jail or did the precautions that you took--were they undertaken on your +own initiative? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I would say that I notified Chief Lunday of the +situation down there and then he told me to go ahead and station these +men there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But there never was any independent effort made by your +superior officers to contact you prior to the move and say, "Captain +Lawrence, we are going to move Oswald at such and such a time, or in +such and such a way, and take such and such precautions"? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I believe though that Chief Lunday was in +communication with headquarters because he went immediately after +he talked to Lieutenant Southard and I and saw this crowd too, he +immediately went inside the sheriff's office and it is my assumption +that he had communication with them because he came out a little later +and told me about the plans--how Oswald was to be brought down and that +he would not be brought down in the armored truck, but that the armored +truck would come Elm Street and would make a left turn off of Elm, and +when it did, this car with the detectives in it would come first and +the car with Oswald would turn into the ramp there at the county jail +and they would lower the gates immediately. At that time Chief Lunday +was in charge down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you informed of this plan to bring Oswald in +a police car; how long before you actually knew Oswald was shot did you +learn about that plan? + +Captain LAWRENCE. I would say approximately 10 minutes--I'm just +guessing--I know it was just shortly after that that I heard he was +shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed that the armored car had arrived at +the police station? + +Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had no knowledge of an armored car until Chief +Lunday told me about it and at the same time he was telling me about +it, a sergeant arrived down there from the radio patrol and was giving +Chief Lunday some information to the same effect, that the armored car +was going to be used as a decoy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But maybe I didn't make my question clear--was any +information ever passed on to the people at the county jail that the +decoy car had arrived in the city basement? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. I was outside all the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have pretty well covered everything here. I'm +going to ask you if you will sign Exhibit No. 1 and also Exhibits Nos. +2 and 3. + +Captain LAWRENCE. This man did not show up and he was given some other +assignment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the No. 3 man there on that list? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; he was given some other assignment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark one more paper here--this is a copy of a +letter that you wrote. + +Captain LAWRENCE. That's a copy of a letter that I wrote that you +probably have in the file there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a letter you wrote to Chief Curry on July 15 +detailing what you did on November 22, and I am going to mark it Capt. +P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, and I will +ask you if you will sign that up at the top also. Do you have anything +else, captain, you would like to add? + +Captain LAWRENCE. Oh, I guess this probably has been mentioned to you +before--there are some people that were down there--Captain Solomon +and I discussed the fact that we were rather shocked at the crowd that +was down there when they announced that Oswald--when they heard that +Oswald had been shot--about them cheering, but this was an actual fact, +and I thought it was a terrible thing myself, it broke me up too, this +killing of the President, but as I said, this was a real shock that +these people cheered like this. This just showed the attitude of some +of them that were down there. I can't think of anything else. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and taking this time. +All of the members of your department who have been here have really +given very generously of their time and cooperated and we are all very +appreciative of it. + +Captain LAWRENCE. I did learn of some new security measures from +this unfortunate experience. I refer to the manner in which the +Secret Service handled the transfer of President Johnson and his +party from Parkland Hospital, the plans for this transfer in unmarked +cars, the solo escorts and positioning of the vehicles en route to +Love Field. First, the Secret Service personnel made arrangements +for three unmarked cars to be placed in a "ready" position at the +rear of Parkland without the knowledge of the news media or other +persons. Three cars were so arranged. The first car was Chief Curry's +unmarked car, the second car was my unmarked car, and the third car +was Inspector Putnam's unmarked car. I was instructed to have two solo +officers ready to go but not to give them their destination until we +started to leave--these instructions were from the Secret Service. +When President Johnson came out of the hospital with his party he was +immediately taken to Chief Curry's lead vehicle. Other White House +and Secret Service personnel got in my car, as they did in Inspector +Putnam's car. I instructed the solo officers to escort us to Love +Field. As we left Parkland Hospital the solo officers started using +their sirens and shortly thereafter Chief Curry came on the police +radio and requested them to cut the sirens off. Chief Curry repeated +these instructions about three or four times and after several blocks +the officers cut off their sirens. One of the Secret Service men in +my vehicle instructed me as to how to position my vehicle to the +rear of Chief Curry's car and I also noticed in the rear view mirror +that Inspector Putnam's vehicle was positioned in such a way that it +would be difficult for any other car to overtake this escort. After +the solo motorcycle officers cut off their sirens they went ahead and +stopped traffic at various intersections so that it was not necessary +for any of the cars in President Johnson's party to stop. I was quite +impressed with the quick efficient planning of the Secret Service in +getting the President and his party safely to the airport and the +security precautions taken while en route to Love Field. You know--this +thing--something like this, this just really hits you. You are so busy +you don't know it, but it just finally really hits you down deep. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There's not very much I guess really that can be +said--it's one of these events that is so shocking in our lifetime. + +Captain LAWRENCE. Too--Chief Curry was really torn up about it--out at +Parkland Hospital he held himself real good--I guess we all were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we all were. Thank you very much for coming. + +Captain LAWRENCE. Thank you. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RONALD G. WITTMUS + +The following affidavit was executed by Ronald G. Wittmus on July 30, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Ronald G. Wittmus, have reviewed the testimony of Sebastian Francis +Latona before The President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. + +I have conducted independent examinations of the items which were the +subject of Mr. Latona's testimony and on the basis of these independent +examinations I reached the same conclusions reached by Sebastian +Francis Latona. + +Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) Ronald G. Wittmus, + RONALD G. WITTMUS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY + + +The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on July 30, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Thomas J. Kelley, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to +Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C. + +2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey +Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain +Fritz; Forrest Sorrels of the United States Secret Service; Postal +Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas Police Officers. + +3. It is my recollection that during this interrogation, Oswald was not +asked about nor did he speak of a trip that he took to Mexico or plans +that he had to go to Cuba. + +Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) Thomas J. Kelley, + THOMAS J. KELLEY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER + + +The following affidavit was executed by Robert A. Frazier on July 31, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies +of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the +President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. +Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. + +I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the +items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's testimonies and that +on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same +conclusions reached by Mr. Cunningham. + +Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) Robert A. Frazier, + ROBERT A. FRAZIER. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM + + +The following affidavit was executed by Cortlandt Cunningham on July +31, 1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Cortlandt Cunningham, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of +Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, before the President's +Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I +agree with the conclusions stated therein. + +I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the +items which were the subject of Mr. Frazier's testimonies and that +on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same +conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier. + +Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) Cortlandt Cunningham, + CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF CHARLES L. KILLION + + +The following affidavit was executed by Charles L. Killion on July 31, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, Charles L. Killion, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies +of Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, and testimonies +of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the +President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. +Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein. + +I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the +items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's and Mr. Frazier's +testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I +reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier and Mr. Cunningham. + +Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) Charles L. Killion, + CHARLES L. KILLION. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ROY SANSOM TRULY + + +The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building +in Dallas, Texas. + +2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second +floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut +because of a closing mechanism on the door. + +Signed this 3d day of August 1964, at Dallas Tex. + + (S) Roy Sansom Truly, + ROY SANSOM TRULY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF FORREST V. SORRELS + + +The following affidavit was executed by Forrest V. Sorrels on August 6, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Forrest V. Sorrels, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am the Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas district of the +United States Secret Service. + +2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey +Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain +Fritz; Thomas J. Kelley, Inspector of the United States Secret Service; +Postal Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas City Detectives. + +3. I do not recall that during this interrogation Oswald being +questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to +Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. + +Signed this 6th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. + + (S) Forrest V. Sorrels, + FORREST V. SORRELS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN JOE HOWLETT + + +The following affidavit was executed by John Joe Howlett on August 11, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, John Joe Howlett, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am an agent in the Dallas office of the United States Secret +Service. + +2. On March 20, 1964, counsel to the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy timed me as I walked from the +southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom by +the stairway in the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +3. During this test, I carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the +sixth floor northerly along the east aisle to the northeast corner, +then westerly along the north wall past the elevators to the northwest +corner. There I placed the rifle on the floor. I then entered the +stairwell, walked down the stairway to the second floor landing, and +then into the lunchroom. + +4. After the second test which was run at a "fast walk," I was not +short-winded. + +Signed this 11th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. + + (S) John Joe Howlett, + JOHN JOE HOWLETT. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MARRION L. BAKER + + +The following affidavit was executed by Marrion L. Baker on August 11, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Marrion L. Baker, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am an officer in the Dallas Police Department. + +2. On November 22, 1963, upon hearing shots I rode my motorcycle 180 to +200 feet, parked the motorcycle, and ran 45 feet to the Texas School +Book Depository Building. + +3. On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions +after hearing the shots on November 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, +I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository +Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot. + +Signed this 13th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex. + + (S) Marrion L. Baker, + MARRION L. BAKER. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT BROCK + + +The following affidavit was executed by Robert Brock on August 5, 1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + +I, Robert Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: + +I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, +I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was +interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation +concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to +Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald +Kennedy. + +I have been shown the written report[C] of the results of my interview +with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal +Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written +report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, +1963. + +Signed this 5th day of August 1964. + + (S) Robert Brock, + ROBERT BROCK. + +[C] This report was labeled Robert Brock Exhibit A. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MARY BROCK + + +The following affidavit was executed by Mary Brock on August 5, 1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + +I, Mary Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: + +I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, +I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was +interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation +concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to +Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald +Kennedy. + +I have been shown the written report[D] of the results of my interview +with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal +Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written +report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, +1963. + +Signed this 5th day of August 1964. + + (S) Mary Brock, + MARY BROCK. + +[D] This report was labeled Mary Brock Exhibit A. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HAROLD RUSSELL + + +The following affidavit was executed by Harold Russell on August 10, +1964. + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + +I, Harold Russell, being duly sworn, depose as follows: + +I now reside at U.S. Highway 77 S., Davis, Okla. On January 21, 1964, I +was residing at on North Clinton, Dallas, Texas, and was employed as a +salesman by Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 East Jefferson, Dallas, +Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents John +T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation +concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee +Harvey Oswald, the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and +the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. + +I have been shown the written report[E] of the results of the interview +by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal +Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written +report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, +1963. + +Signed this 10th day of August 1964. + + (S) Harold Russell, + HAROLD RUSSELL. + +[E] This report was labeled Russell Exhibit A. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID GOLDSTEIN + + +The following affidavit was executed by David Goldstein on August 13, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, David Goldstein, 6111 Averill Way, Apartment D, Dallas, Tex., being +duly sworn say: + +1. I am and have been for several years owner of Dave's House of Guns, +2544 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas. + +2. Dave's House of Guns has handled Smith and Wesson .38/200 British +Service Revolvers. Within ten days after the assassination of President +Kennedy, F.B.I. agents called on me to determine if Dave's House of +Guns had any record of handling a Smith and Wesson .38/200 British +Service Revolver, serial number V 510210 and assembly number 65248. We +had no such record. + +3. After being shown a photograph of the above gun, I showed the F.B.I. +agents a catalog which listed such guns and indicated that they were +handled by George Rose and Company, Inc., 1225 South Grand Avenue, Los +Angeles, California. + +Signed this 13th day of August 1964. + + (S) David Goldstein, + DAVID GOLDSTEIN. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. + +"Air Force 1" usually is in italics, but in a few instances was printed +upright as "Air Force I". + +Page 153: "Mr. Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the +lineup." probably was asked by Mr. Ball, not stated by Mr. Dhority. + +Page 160: "I could have heard, that" has misprinted comma after "heard". + +Page 163: "we we still" probably is misprint for "we were still". + +Page 195: "he had make a snapshot" is misprint for "made". + +Page 247: "until my discharge in 1944" was printed that way, but is +inconsistent with being after World War II. + +Page 260: "Will you state you name" is misprint for "your". + +Page 263: "running, from the scene" has misprinted comma after +"running". + +Page 272: "I took here into the" is misprint for "her". + +Page 284: "no bad pressure?" is misprint for "back". + +Page 302: "sit and each lunch with him" is misprint for "eat". + +Page 326: "raise your right and be sworn" is missing "hand". + +Page 333: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available +at Project Gutenberg. + +Page 359: "Dallas Time Herald Television Station" is misprint for +"Times". + +Page 422: "in both the know and questioned" is misprint for "known". + +Page 457: "deal with an particular" is misprint for "any". + +Page 436: "distoration" was printed that way. + +Page 539: "that we taken" probably is missing "had". + + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings +Vol. VII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44007 *** |