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diff --git a/44006.txt b/44006.txt deleted file mode 100644 index a4727a3..0000000 --- a/44006.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,48009 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. -VI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44006] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V6 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ VI - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI: -Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark, -Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins, -Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin, -Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt, -Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President -Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis -Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended -Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge, -Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C. -Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher; -Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson, -who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack -Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C. -Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell, -Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis -Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G. -Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger -D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers, -Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer, -D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who -were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A. -Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens, -Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty, -Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns, -employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William -W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning -Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides, -and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit -crime scene. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - - Preface v - Testimony of-- - Charles J. Carrico 1 - Malcolm Oliver Perry 7 - William Kemp Clark 18 - Robert Nelson McClelland 30 - Charles Rufus Baxter 39 - Marion Thomas Jenkins 45 - Ronald Coy Jones 51 - Don Teel Curtis 57 - Fouad A. Bashour 61 - Gene Coleman Akin 63 - Paul Conrad Peters 68 - Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72 - Jackie Hansen Hunt 76 - Kenneth Everett Salyer 80 - Martin G. White 82 - Robert Shaw 83 - Charles Francis Gregory 95 - George T. Shires 104 - Richard Brooks Dulany 113 - Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115 - Jane Carolyn Wester 120 - Henrietta M. Ross 123 - R. J. Jimison 125 - Darrell C. Tomlimson 128 - Diana Hamilton Bowron 134 - Margaret M. Henchliffe 139 - Doris Mae Nelson 143 - Charles Jack Price 148 - Malcolm O. Couch 153 - Tom C. Dillard 162 - James Robert Underwood 167 - James N. Crawford 171 - Mary Ann Mitchell 175 - Barbara Rowland 177 - Ronald B. Fischer 191 - Robert Edwin Edwards 200 - Jean Lollis Hill 205 - Austin L. Miller 223 - Frank E. Reilly 227 - Earle V. Brown 231 - Royce G. Skelton 236 - S. M. Holland 239 - J. W. Foster 248 - J. C. White 253 - Joe E. Murphy 256 - Roger D. Craig 260 - George W. Rackley, Sr 273 - James Elbert Romack 277 - Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284 - B. J. Martin 289 - Bobby W. Hargis 293 - Clyde A. Haygood 296 - E. D. Brewer 302 - D. V. Harkness 308 - J. Herbert Sawyer 315 - Gerald Dalton Henslee 325 - William H. Shelley 327 - Nat A. Pinkston 334 - Billy Nolan Lovelady 336 - Frankie Kaiser 341 - Charles Douglas Givens 345 - Troy Eugene West 356 - Danny G. Arce 363 - Joe R. Molina 368 - Jack Edwin Dougherty 373 - Eddie Piper 382 - Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386 - Geneva L. Hine 393 - Doris Burns 397 - Mary E. Bledsoe 400 - William W. Whaley 428 - Earlene Roberts 431 - Domingo Benavides 444 - Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Bowron Exhibit No.: Page - 2 138 - 3 138 - 4 138 - Brewer Exhibit A 304 - Brown Exhibit A 236 - Davis Exhibit No.: - 1 457 - 2 463 - 3 465 - Dillard Exhibit: - A 166 - B 166 - C 166 - D 166 - Dougherty Exhibit: - A 382 - B 382 - C 382 - Edwards Exhibit A 205 - Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198 - Foster Exhibit: - A 249 - B 253 - Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73 - Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100 - Hill Exhibit No. 5 223 - Holland Exhibit: - A 242 - B 242 - C 243 - D 245 - Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50 - Jones Exhibit No. 1 55 - Kaiser Exhibit: - A 344 - B 344 - C 344 - Miller Exhibit A 227 - Molina Exhibit A 368 - Murphy Exhibit A 260 - Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147 - Piper Exhibit A 386 - Price Exhibit No. - 2 148 - 3 149 - 4 149 - 5 150 - 6 150 - 7 150 - 8 150 - 9 150 - 10 151 - 11 151 - 12 151 - 13 151 - 14 151 - 15 151 - 16 151 - 17 151 - 18 151 - 19 151 - 20 151 - 21 151 - 22 151 - 23 151 - 24 151 - 25 151 - 26 152 - 27 152 - 28 152 - 29 152 - 30 152 - 31 152 - 32 152 - 33 152 - 34 152 - 35 152 - Reilly Exhibit A 231 - Sawyer Exhibit: - A 318 - B 322 - Skelton Exhibit A 239 - Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134 - Whaley Exhibit A 430 - White Exhibit A 254 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO - -The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is -present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that -his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of -the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination -of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases -of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland -Memorial Hospital. - -Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which -he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary -statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise -your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. CARRICO. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. CARRICO. Physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice -medicine? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; -received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State -College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961, -and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to -1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by -my residency here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor? - -Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will -qualify me for my boards in general surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at -Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery -service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for -evaluation for admission to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock -noon? - -Dr. CARRICO. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the -clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these -people and evaluate them for admission and treatment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the -way to the hospital at approximately 12:30? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In which President Kennedy was involved? - -Dr. CARRICO At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these -patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and -was on his way to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when -you received that call? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was probably shortly after 12:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that call was received did the -President's party actually arrive at Parkland? - -Dr. CARRICO. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's -party at Parkland, please. - -Dr. CARRICO. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in -response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the -intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and -was taken to one of the trauma rooms. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what identification was given to the trauma room to -which Governor Connally was taken? - -Dr. CARRICO. Trauma room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came -into the emergency area? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the -nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don -Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern, -was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that -time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and -the rest of the staff. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President -Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, no, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of -President Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. I believe he was in there and did the--he helped Dr. -Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Dulany do? - -Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as -I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the -President, care for the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his -arrival at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. CARRICO. I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as -best you can recollect it? - -Dr. CARRICO. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the -room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition -to Miss Bowron? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, I don't recall any of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon -his arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, -spasmodic, described as agonal. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for -just a moment there, Doctor? - -Dr. CARRICO. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal -coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and -usually reflect a terminal patient. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe your observations of the -President? - -Dr. CARRICO. His--the President's color--I don't believe I said--he -was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous -movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt -and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third -of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt -the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, -and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and -scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little -more closely. There seemed to be a 4-5 cm. area of avulsion of the -scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar -tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated -and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the -inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed -endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through -the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx -and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury. -The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated, -and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate -respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood -pressure was obtained. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the -anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be -any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was probably a 4-7 mm. wound, almost in the midline, -maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid -cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged -edges or stellate lacerations. - -Mr. SPECTER. You said you felt the President's back? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of -the back involved at that time? - -Dr. CARRICO. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to -wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still -on his arms--I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little -above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no -large violation of the pleural cavity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not take the time to turn him over? - -Dr. CARRICO. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more -thorough inspection would have involved several minutes--well, -several--considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A -thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, -and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You -have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening -and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of -the injuries. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Before--well, in trying to treat an acutely -injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation -and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was -accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed -cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his -back. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after -he had expired? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his -back? - -Dr. CARRICO. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it. - -Mr. SPECTER. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in -order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that -description, please? - -Dr. CARRICO. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been -inserted. After this, the President--his respirations were assisted -by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to -evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially -on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place -and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around -the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a -tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room -to insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the -resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using -polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and -uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300 -mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion -of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac -monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical -cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible -electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed -cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in -maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly -deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death? - -Dr. CARRICO. A head injury. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the treatment which was given -to the President as best you recollect it? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all--I'm sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the -President's clothing? - -Dr. CARRICO. We did not do that. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico? - -Dr. CARRICO. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed -by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was -devoted to trying to resuscitate the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the examination of the President's back which you -described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back? - -Dr. CARRICO. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back. -I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the -head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect -to whether he had any back wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect -a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is -to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest -posteriorly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain -whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with -respect to the presence of a back brace, if any? - -Dr. CARRICO. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we -noted he was wearing a standard back support. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that back support, please? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, -with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front. - -Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it? - -Dr. CARRICO. How wide? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below--you see--as I -recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips -that you observed? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his -body when his pants were removed? - -Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President -Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr. -McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones, -Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there--initially, at least, I -don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in -there, I just can't specifically remember--there were 10 or 15 people -in the room before it was over. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of -the punctate wound in the President's throat? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; I really don't--just on the basis of what I know. We -didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the -bullets. - -Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you. - -Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the -bullets. - -Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track -of the bullets? - -Dr. CARRICO. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to -do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to -establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct -these. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended -President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after--later -in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were -not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this -was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another -entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no -other entrance wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an -entry or exit wound, in your opinion? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of -the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that -President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the -upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from -the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, -and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the -missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the -fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side -of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. -Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would -the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent -with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of -approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with -the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that -wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with -the missile taking the path I have just described to you? - -Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce -that result? - -Dr. CARRICO. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a -direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would -cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing -through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great -deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing -a small, round, even wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds? - -Dr. CARRICO. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen -a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber -weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer -range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, -especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass -through to which you have just referred? - -Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the -muscles of the leg superficially. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have -you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor? - -Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the -nature of the head wound which you observed on the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located -in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to -7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium -and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded -macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the -fragments of the skull attached to the dura. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the -one you have just described? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the -large gaping hole which you described? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how -many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any -representative of the Federal Government? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after -the President's death. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview? - -Dr. CARRICO. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical -school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a -statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document -heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page -summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22, -1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic -copy of a report which you submitted? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct? - -Dr. CARRICO. They are. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the -trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in -more specific detail? - -Dr. CARRICO. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was -inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the -lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and -hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a -ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This -was the extent of what I saw. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any -indication as to direction of the bullet? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give -any indication of the direction of the bullet? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you -any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true? - -Dr. CARRICO. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some -others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds -were from, the direction, and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries? - -Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't -remember specifically. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal -Government prior to today? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with -something else? - -Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment--Civil Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. But the only time you talked to anyone about your -treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that -treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another -Secret Service Agent--I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had -any other information and I said "no". - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you -were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the -purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions -which I would ask you? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you gave me at that time the -same as that to which you have testified here on the record? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your -treatment and observations of President Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present -time? - -Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body. - -Dr. CARRICO. Not by us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort -concerning your treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to -my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the -treatment. - -Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern? - -Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why -it happened--maybe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences? - -Dr. CARRICO. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of -assistance in any way to the President's Commission? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter -requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission, -and do you acknowledge receipt of that? - -Dr. CARRICO. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at -that time? - -Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can. - -Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C. - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico. - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY - -The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present -in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his -deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now -inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical -attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which -Dr. Perry participated. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, -Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. PERRY. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you? - -Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of -Texas? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school? - -Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine. - -Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano -High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the -University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of -Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the -University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with -a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital -in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland -Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then -returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization -in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern -Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of -surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, -both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a -consultant and attending surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after -noontime on November 22? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having -lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald -Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the -residents. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an -emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is -the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a -paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to -see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital -operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to -Parkland Hospital for care. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those -factors? - -Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency -room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to -render what assistance we could. - -At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was -already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, -the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to -assist respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, -at that time? - -Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were -there--Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several -other people in the room. There were several nurses there--I don't know -at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there -was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both -in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I -assume, part of the legal force. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, -but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico--I had the -impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an -impression gathered after the fact. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at -the time you first saw him? - -Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in -the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been -removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I -believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen -apparatus to assist in respiration. - -I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area -in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue -on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was -unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in -the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a -punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was -rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of -the wound exactly. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you -can recollect? - -Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they -were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I -determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in -size or so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that -wound? - -Dr. PERRY. I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the -condition of the President? - -Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not -detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was -apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the -endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this -was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it -was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy -tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect -about your observations of the President before you started to work on -him? - -Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any -other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over? - -Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent -procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a -condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the -other procedures are to be of no avail. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever -turn him over? - -Dr. PERRY. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the -initial action on him? - -Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were -breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, -since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or -pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined -the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the -electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative -measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned. - -I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the -room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left -my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my -coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment -of President Kennedy? - -Dr. PERRY. It did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in -the Emergency Room? - -Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when -I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look -at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it -again until after I had left the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed -from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived -at the emergency room? - -Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really -don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no -occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to -consult it further. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the -emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President? - -Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed -my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes -in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, -I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist -in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room -probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to -be dead? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related -to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once -again, I did not verify the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to -revive the President? - -Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during -this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the -tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, -unless you want it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were -followed in the efforts to save the President's life? - -Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the -tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was -present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in -the underlying trachea. - -I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it -down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying -the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral -aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea -was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the -strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. -At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a -catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary -instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure. - -The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed -tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free -air and blood in the superior right mediastinum. - -Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the -presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative -of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a -right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who -did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters -inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage. - -Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this -time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. -Jones and Dr. Carrico. - -Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to -support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that -he suffered from adrenal insufficiency. - -Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under -the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the -anesthesia machine at the head of the table. - -Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived -and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the -oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures -performed on the President? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any doctors who participated other than those -whom you have already identified in the course of your description? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr. -Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was -another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an -emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for -Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of -surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them -to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. -My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was -when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting -me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr. -Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12 -doctors all told by then. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Peters--I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters, -assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor -of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of -medicine. - -I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke, -his assistant professor of anesthesiology--that's the only people that -I saw directly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don -Curtis? - -Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible--I don't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there? - -Dr. PERRY. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in -the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was -just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door -when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but -I understand he was not, that actually he was going--just going in the -room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought -Dr. Dulany was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising -in the interior portion of the President's neck? - -Dr. PERRY. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion -of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for -bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by -definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was -so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to -ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed -myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no -further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea -was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to -reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of -the President's neck? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or -how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the -trajectory. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head, -specifically? - -Dr. PERRY. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you, -which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, -but I did not do a minute examination of his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area? - -Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over -the President at any time during the course of your treatment or -examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then -asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did -in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did -you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than -it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further -that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a -minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a -little bit out of my domain. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's -clothing to ascertain direction of the missile? - -Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know -about--I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an -attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but -the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency -room, I assume. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the description of that brace? - -Dr. PERRY. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the -lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of -an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were -taken down? - -Dr. PERRY. There was evidence of an Ace bandage--I saw it sticking out -from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was -on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his -right leg--his right thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as -well? - -Dr. PERRY. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for -that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or -lower extremities. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in -any other way, of the President's back? - -Dr. PERRY. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in a press conference or press -conferences following the death of the President? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first of such press conferences? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been -within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that press conference by way of -identifying, if you can, the members of the news media? - -Dr. PERRY. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms -1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people. -I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple -of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights, -and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr. -Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me -as being with the White House Press. I don't know--there were numerous -people of the press. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived -a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked -him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He -apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter -came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he -said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses -did you give at that press conference? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions -I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to -be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to -speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and -the exact cause of death. - -The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was -that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not -categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it -was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the President -further--I could not comment on any other injuries. - -As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive -brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying -cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to -what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such -detail--essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at -that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of -blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure -apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with -the cardiotachioscope. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with -respect to the number of bullets? - -Dr. PERRY. I was asked by several of the people of the press, -initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. -Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it -was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I -replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one -bullet? - -Dr. PERRY. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and -I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and -strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the -head." - -Mr. SPECTER. And where would that point of entry have been? - -Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the -neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have -reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion -was? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable--this was possible, but -again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether -there was one or two bullets. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been -one bullet or two bullets or either, or what? - -Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press -conference that you can recollect as being important at this time? - -Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I -mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed -and very quiet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur? - -Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred -in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't -know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. -There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the -administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in -relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. -I don't know how many there were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of -the hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily--I -wouldn't say--set up by the administration. They were done here at the -hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with -you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar -as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and -which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had -done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the -medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, -say, at home. - -I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in -order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and -approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and -requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and -the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given -to the previous press conference at the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted? - -Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you -say anything other than that which you have already related you said -during the course of the first press conference? - -Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't -think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording -certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit -more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon -my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our -statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have -made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and -people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I -did are essentially the same in all of these. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore -identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets -which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside -the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time--1630 -hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of -the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you -gave to the President on the day of the assassination? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet? - -Dr. PERRY. That is my signature. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct? - -Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted -at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you? - -Dr. PERRY. They have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with -your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of -the President's wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I -did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat -confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell -whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the -findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings -which I noted at the time that I saw the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to -the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above -the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and -being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 -cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which -parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and -assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at -that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance -of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 -feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the -bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, -without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing -the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the -President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the -wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your -findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat -be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you? - -Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the -situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with -your observations and findings? - -Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not -examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, -unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little -injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it -had left the tissues. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's -throat then be consistent with such an exit wound? - -Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination -as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an -exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound -could be produced by such a missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time -of the press conferences that you described? - -Dr. PERRY. They were not. - -Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I -believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available -initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause -of the wound, did you not? - -Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were -directed toward me at the various conferences. - -Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today -that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to -what might have happened? - -Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the -true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to--in such a manner -as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a -position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And -my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but -similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily." - -Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you -observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive -opinion? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, -as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the -preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the -case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that -I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what -you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, -which I have asked you to assume? - -Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either -by my own knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's -neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 -and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather -large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible -alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the -cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound -is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably -by any number of objects. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck -would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I -described to you? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a -different set of factors? - -Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I -do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of -a large expanded bullet--voluntarily I would add that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description -of a large expanded bullet? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it would not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a -6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the -right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the -President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion -as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, -the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and -the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, -taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present -sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or -trajectory? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the -wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could -certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the -skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to -tell. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it -came from the front or back of the President? - -Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of -the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive -wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly -indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance -and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then? - -Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with -Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls -indicating first the time when they occurred. - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by -about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think -I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not -real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning? - -Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking -with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show. - -Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that? - -Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed -your view from Friday to Saturday? - -Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time--Friday -afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about -it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I -thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, -for some reason. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you received those calls? - -Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything? - -Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing -a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, -that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which -was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury -underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision -made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral -injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation. - -He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that -he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in -confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired -about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part -as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to -Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them as having placed it in -the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the -right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds -in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I -knowledge of any wounds of the back. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article -which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of -surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical -services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the -President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such -article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter -about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which -apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York -Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room -No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the -President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview -of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the -rest of it was obtained from various people here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate? - -Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content -was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification -of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to -conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have -knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since -they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the -Federal Government about this matter prior to today? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what -occasions? As best you can recollect it. - -Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did -not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these -things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little -better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very -difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several -people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as -being affiliated with the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service -personnel? - -Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact -dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even -remember their names now. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman? - -Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I -indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present -time it escapes me. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence? - -Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions -and my care of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which -you have given the Federal investigators? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in -wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined -it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, -has been essentially consistent. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the -Federal Government besides the Secret Service men? - -Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified -themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not -recall their names either. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about? - -Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might -speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I -replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my -own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which -you gave to the FBI? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being -essentially the same thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had -with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. PERRY. I think I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of -this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the -record, before this deposition started? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you -provided on the record here today? - -Dr. PERRY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful in any way to the President's Commission? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition -today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in -Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the -record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please. - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more -question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this -deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, -which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the -trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly -considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile -accidents, gunshot wounds of various types. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in -addition to that obtained here at Parkland? - -Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was -in the service. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen -while you have been at Parkland? - -Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics? - -Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur -hand loader. - -Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what? - -Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. - -Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK - -The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on -March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right -hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in -this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. CLARK. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated. - -Dr. CLARK. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts -related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been -asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical -treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital -and all facts incident thereto. - -Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission -enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and -a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and -a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission? - -Dr. CLARK. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, -even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the -letter and this morning? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational -background, please? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, -1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at -Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and -was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in -the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at -Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to -1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern -Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery. - -Would you like the professional qualifications? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary -form, if you will, please. - -Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological -Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a -member of the Harvey Cushing Society. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way? - -Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the -world. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the -Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas? - -Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery -and carry the responsibility of administering this department or -this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in -neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have -the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland -Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical -school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that -the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that -notification? - -Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of -receiving that notification? - -Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland -Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when -this word reached me by phone from the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the -emergency room? - -Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, -so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, -attending to the President? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to -say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving -either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, -Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on -your arrival there? - -Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. -Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being -inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations -through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were -administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making -a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the -endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert -the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly. - -My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to -light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation. - -I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was -a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and -cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable -blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of -some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being -present. - -As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse -and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked -that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was -difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that -he felt a femoral pulse. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse? - -Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and -at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial -pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was -taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a -cardiac monitor for a better word---- - -Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word. - -Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad -Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the -President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the -external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be -felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed? - -Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what -way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock? - -Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely -difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was -monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death? - -Dr. CLARK. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death -certificate? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that? - -Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. -George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed -the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, -and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of -the death of the President? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you? - -Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the -President's body? - -Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at -Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on -the day of the assassination? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur? - -Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held? - -Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the -press at the conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual -note pads and pencils, and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press -conference and photographed? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. No one else? - -Dr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that -press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much -the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was -an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an -exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time? - -Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by -"tangential"? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as -being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail -the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type -of a striking? - -Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ -when struck by a bullet or other missile---- - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition -for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be -here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 -o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the -deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential -and other types of striking. - -Go ahead, Doctor. - -Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function -of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this -organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through -rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage -results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated -by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must -then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed -more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow. - -Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of -the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. -Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it -would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual -direct line it was proceeding. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you -define a tangential wound at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at -2:30 on November 22? - -Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, -that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood -loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had -sustained or from what angle they could have come. - -I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a -massive one and was insurvivable. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of -that press conference, when the cameras were operating? - -Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small -wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the -tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was -deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. -He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He -was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit -wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance -wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in -response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur? - -Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time? - -Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a -minute, which television networks were involved on that? - -Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had -never heard of. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major -networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC? - -Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room -two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and -television stations were also present. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had -started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what -time of day that was? - -Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in -that conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our -local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and -as full as the first one. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, -assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. -This is his office. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the -television cameras were grinding? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press -conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the -President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's -condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he -described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a -point of entry or exit? - -Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add -something to what I said in the first press conference? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, -please feel free to add that. - -Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at -the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a -wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said -something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have -been possible in that press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with -gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, -and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had -to go to get from there to the top of his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking -specific parts of the body? - -Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile -would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the -President was hanging upside down. - -Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that -second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about -that subject? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda -Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the -autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by -the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to -that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested -that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts -to you? - -Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I -could be wrong on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur? - -Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. It was CBS. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. -Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if -it differed in any way from what you said before? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, -describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the -President, how he was called and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an -entrance wound or an exit wound or what? - -Dr. CLARK. I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He -described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He -described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the -time he was anesthetized in the operating room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what -was done in an attempt to save him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding -Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was -anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw -it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on -President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President -Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of -entry or exit? - -Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that -press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President -Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found -an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he -described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, -and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision -to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. -Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press -conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the -assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so -stated in the conference. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was that? - -Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference? - -Dr. CLARK. With BBC. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that? - -Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference -with you? - -Dr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded? - -Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous -conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what -transpired after I arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a -hole on the left side of the President's head? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences? - -Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated -that I personally saw no such wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall? - -Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought -up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was -some discussion of such a wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound? - -Dr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the -wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the -left side? - -Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a -comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head? - -Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who -attended the press conference with NBC. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time? - -Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the -President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other -hole or wound on the President's head? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a -bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior -scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the -external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm. - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in -the blood and hair. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on -the back side of the President? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the -emergency room? - -Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other -doctors who were in attendance? - -Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, -because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate -signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's -body out of Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley? - -Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some -other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral -wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 -cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital -proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present -without your observing it? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and -scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time -available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present. - -Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the -autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); -Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. -Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion -that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. -and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital -protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's -head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward -with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open -car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied -to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet -would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the -center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening -from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought -to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent -with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I -have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have -personally observed? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you -comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, -had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described -and the total wound which he had? - -Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. -Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably -have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The -loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal -lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a -visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with -his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, -but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have -had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. -This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information -on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act. - -How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the -ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not -know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to -move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most -important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as -a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired -his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of -the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned -with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue -does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There -would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to -give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of -the United States. - -Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with -people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon -them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on -your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to -the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit -No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport -to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and -correct? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to -bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if -that, in fact, is your signature? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand -concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings -of any sort concerning this matter? - -Dr. CLARK. No; I have not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with -any Federal representative prior to today? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to? - -Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, -in Mr. Jack Price's office. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point? - -Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This -agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles -from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew -of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I -assured him I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have -asked and he said that was all he wished to know. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the -Federal Government at any time before today? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service -approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on -two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the -written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not. - -I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I -prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified -here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of -the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I -had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did -not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have -written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have -had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative -of the State government prior to today? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, -did you and I have a discussion about this matter? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this -Commission is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record -was open and we started taking your deposition? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter -transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and -prior to the start of the more formal session here? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which -you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. -Clark? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, -Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark. - -Dr. CLARK. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED - -The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March -25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to -have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition -which was taken on March 21. - -Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the -first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions -based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", -which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday. - -Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. CLARK. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what -purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of -February 20, 1964? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt. - -"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp -Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet -hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently -referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not -come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the -President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet -which hit 'the right side of his head'". - -Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a -New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect -to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was. - -Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a -wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of -his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was -an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when -the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement -regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that -there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw -the President. - -A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial -quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the -bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the -placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It -was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the -trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that -a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the -trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck -which so indicated? - -Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if -there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have -been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, -the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of -air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will -produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, -there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of -the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without -opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed -that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile -into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of -bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which -you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the -deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no -means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the -chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile -in the chest? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have -been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on -the neck? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have -been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to -take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in -the chest at some point? - -Dr. CLARK. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had -happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," -"This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would -that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. -Clark? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask -you a few additional questions. - -Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have -taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been -transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what -I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you -before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping. - -Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the -emergency room? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back? - -Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in -the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward -saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. -After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the -conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would -be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory -external examination here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back? - -Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any -bleeding wound noted? - -Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer -that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there -had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally? - -Dr. CLARK. That's correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first -doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine -whether there was any major violation of that area. - -Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was -any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on -the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the -scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip -of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound? - -Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question? - -Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling -approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter, -cause a bloody type of a wound? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in -the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of -the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred -which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised -here in "L' Express". - -"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the -President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?" - -Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that -question, as the news media has posed it? - -Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time -the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. -When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not -done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that -would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his -assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would -be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any -cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death -certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance -with what you believed to be good medical practice? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that -the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross -negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it -here. - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where -the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be -filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to -be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death -certificate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think -might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's -Commission? - -Dr. CLARK. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the -questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it -went on the record? - -Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal -Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and -this Wednesday morning? - -Dr. CLARK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark. - -Dr. CLARK. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND - -The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March -21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you raise your right hand? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these -proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to -take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is -being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you -to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which -President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Robert Nelson McClelland. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter from the Commission which -enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a -copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and -a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions -for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time -of the receipt of the letter and today? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, Doctor? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I am a doctor of medicine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, -starting with your graduation from college, please? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Since graduation from college I attended medical -school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex., -and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to -Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University -of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that -period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years -in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became -a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas -in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August -1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and -then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June -1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962. -Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the -staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am -at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland -Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where in your background did you acquire that experience? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely during residency training and subsequent to -that in my capacity here on the staff. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience -here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to -acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital -which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all -of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved -frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number -of that type patient almost daily. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot -wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. At that time I was showing a film on surgical -techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of -Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the -fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency -room after having been shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take following that -notification? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the -Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency -room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been -taken immediately upon arrival. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency -Room 1? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate -or estimate, rather, about 12:40. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your -arrival? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry--would you like the -full names of all these? - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, I would appreciate that. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles -Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they all present at the time you arrived? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. They were not present when I arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you start with the ones who were present? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry, -the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and -Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same -time that I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, -in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr. -Kenneth Salyer. - -Mr. SPECTER. S-a-l-y-e-r? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald -Seldin---- - -Mr. SPECTER. S-e-l-d-i-n? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. S-e-l-d-i-n--I believe that's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition -at that time? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting -him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical -gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head -injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood -appeared cyanotic---- - -Mr. SPECTER. "Cyanotic"--may I interrupt--just what do you mean by that -in lay terms? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black -discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant, -which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased -intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at -the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving -artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was operating that machine? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The machine--there was a changeover, just as I came -in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been -operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing -machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same -time I arrived--this would be one other doctor who came in the -room that I forgot about--Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of -anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, -which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of -respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's -tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with -these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I -came in. - -Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at -the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately -at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in -the neck line. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the -neck wound when you first arrived? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time -converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made -by Dr. Perry, and he told me--although I did not see that--that he had -made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter -inch in diameter wound in the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely -than that? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. He did not at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. He has since that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what description has he given of it since that time? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave -was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small -injury, with clear cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less -than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding -it on the skin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that -bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin -portion, that is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection -with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation -with respect to the head wound? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. As I took the position at the head of the table that -I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in -such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I -noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely -blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so -that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to -be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of -the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung -open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually -look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or -so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some -of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount -of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels -in the skull which had been blasted open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he alive at the time you first saw him? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the -hectic activity--I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or -what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say -that would perhaps give evidence--this is not vital activity--at most, -is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but -it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, -whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe the activity and part that you -performed in the treatment which followed your arrival? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry -and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked -together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles -out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the -spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the -fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube -into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to -this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here. - -Mr. SPECTER. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior -damage to the President? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that for me, please? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of -contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right -side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site -was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left -side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required -partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough -exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of -soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently -the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the -strap muscles which were applied closely to it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the -time you were performing the procedures you have just described? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had -consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, -the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in -the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too -much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes -were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and -as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know -exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood. - -In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the -tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were -attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, -an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, -and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left -chest--both, as I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who was placing those tubes? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters. -The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall--I perhaps -better not say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know about how long that took in placing those -chest tubes? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in. -What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and -that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and -slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes -of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the -lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was -probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of -blood and air into one or both pleural cavities. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect did this medical treatment have on President -Kennedy? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt -that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed -rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling -that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as -establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what -not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and -cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, at what time did he expire? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head -injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues -and massive blood loss. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his -body other than that which you have already described for me? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the -time you saw him until the pronouncement of death? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. On his what? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he on the stretcher at all times? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table -onto which he could be placed from the stretcher? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No; generally we do not move patients from the -stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then -they are moved onto the operating table. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the -course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you -could have seen the back of his body? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who -attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which -was inflicted on him? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what facts did you have available either to you or to -the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the -nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew -nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. -We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, -essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 -or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial -impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your initial impressions? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the -wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound -and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral -body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce -the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining -of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much -easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, -which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one -then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, -to whom do you mean by "we"? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously -been mentioned here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the -President's head? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not -lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid -moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see, -of course, all the extent of the wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. You saw a large opening which you have already described? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I saw the large opening which I have described. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large -opening on the back of the head? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on the experience that you have described for us -with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you -characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as -being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description -which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were -there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of -entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your -words? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I would say it would be equally consistent with either -type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite -difficult to say--impossible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report -which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and -has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission -Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page, -"Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all -if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and -next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the -authorities at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the -best of your knowledge, information and belief? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a -few minutes before I started to take your deposition today? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I discussed this matter with you? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, during the course of our conversations at that time, -did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you -have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And has the information which you have given me on the -record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in -advance? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your -testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to -waive any such signature of the testimony? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I would be willing to waive my signature. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition -today. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED - -The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has -returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation -of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the -intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr. -McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today. - -Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear -that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this -deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French, -of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you -if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to -a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis -Post Dispatch. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. (Examined instrument referred to.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post -Dispatch about this matter? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was his name? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Richard Dudman. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I recall, it was the day after the -assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said -to you and you said to him, please? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt -to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and -as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a -small undamaged--appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck, -the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual -entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be--you -couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of -certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds -of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference -between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in -essence what I told him about the nature of the wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time -the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated, -in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when -I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to -assist with the tracheotomy. - -Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and -were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended -through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as -an entrance wound. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the -entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it -is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by -everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this, -if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in -its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it -had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the -wound--but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described -it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, -knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I -really couldn't say--that's the whole point. This would merely be a -calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just -seeing the wound itself. - -Mr. SPECTER. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the -incision was made? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be -based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post -Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your -only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really -don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether -I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or -whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr. -Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time -exactly what I said to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional -questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I -asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet -had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not -have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers -you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many, -many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be -absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that -time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the -subject. - -First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the -wounds on President Kennedy which you observed? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate -moment? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before -we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were -just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran -through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered -through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which -we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to -ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base -of the skull and out the rear of the skull. - -This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have -made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were -surrounding the assassination, this was much more readily explainable -to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many -bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your -opinion in that respect? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from -all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. -Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me -change my mind in that regard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional -facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you -and I'll ask you for an opinion. - -Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right -posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point -14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a -tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of -entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a -muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located -160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on -the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two -strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved -through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and -exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's -neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side -of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet -might make in such a trajectory through the President's body? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that -would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined -them to you? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the -missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding -from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it -had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even -though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost -a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore -would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the -bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole -like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would have happened then to the other portion of the -bullet if it had fragmented? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. It might have been left along, or portions of it along -the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. -Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there -will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment -out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is -extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, assuming this situation--that the bullet did not -fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is, -it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there -were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is -left in. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. I think even then you could make the statement that -this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through -this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before -it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really -great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high -velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such -as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance -hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the -anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density -from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, -it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up -a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet -of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large -area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily make the usual kind -of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity -heavy caliber bullet. - -This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been -implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell -for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was -blown up a good deal. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned -over? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. The President's body was not turned over because the -initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency -are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and -replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried -out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical -examination, which of course would have required that these other -emergency measures not be done immediately. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any examination of the President's back at -all? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of the President's back made to your -knowledge? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Not here--no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful in any way to the Commission? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that -some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound -may have been misleading, possibly--probably because of our fault in -telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of -being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we -generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be -certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us -about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government -about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing -you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the -record here? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me in response to -my questions the same that we put on the record here? - -Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland. - -Dr. McCLELLAND. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER - -The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on -March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in -response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition. -For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of -the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President -Kennedy. - -Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in -connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy, -and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. -Baxter, and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's -Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the -truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. BAXTER. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please? - -Dr. BAXTER. Charles Rufus Baxter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. BAXTER. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. BAXTER. University of Texas--1948 through 1950. Southwestern -Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship, -1956 medicine residency--internal medicine residency. 1956 through -1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through -1964--surgical residency, and 1964 through the present--this is 1964, I -got out of the Army--in 1958, 1958 through 1962--surgery residency, and -1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Doctor? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what boards have you passed? - -Dr. BAXTER. The American Board of Surgeons. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified? - -Dr. BAXTER. 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specific title at the medical school? - -Dr. BAXTER. Assistant professor of surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President -Kennedy at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding -your being called to render such assistance? - -Dr. BAXTER. I was conducting the student health service in the hours -of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency -room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency -room, having been shot. - -I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it -took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency -room? - -Dr. BAXTER. I think it was 12:40--thereabouts. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that time? - -Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins--several nurses. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the nurses? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes; Mrs. Nelson--and who else? There were two or three -others whose names--Miss Henchliffe was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Miss Bowron? - -Dr. BAXTER. Who? - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Bowron there? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any other nurses there? - -Dr. BAXTER. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that -time? - -Dr. BAXTER. Oh, let's see--I'm not sure whether the others came before -or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour -finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt--yes--she was, I believe she was -the anesthesiologist who came. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there? - -Dr. BAXTER. I'm not sure--I just don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition -of the President? - -Dr. BAXTER. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping -wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its -extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the -pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were -deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so -that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what way was his breathing being assisted? - -Dr. BAXTER. With an anesthesia machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his -condition? - -Dr. BAXTER. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The -anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is that who said that to you? - -Dr. BAXTER. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart -was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous -catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that -time--well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other -wound was in his neck, that we saw. - -Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that -moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest -tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a -tracheotomy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who performed the tracheotomy? - -Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr. -McClelland, and I believe that's all--there may have been one more -person that held the retractor. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy -at that time? - -Dr. BAXTER. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of -a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the -tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present. -Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube -placement. - -We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him -closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope -hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat -electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at -that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, -while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity -to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, -that is, in a word--literally the right side of his head had been blown -off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present--a -large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well--we felt that -such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not -pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and -last rites before we pronounced him dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time was he pronounced dead? - -Dr. BAXTER. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been -that that was Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time -of death be fixed with any precision? - -Dr. BAXTER. I don't think so--the time elapsing in all of this -resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one -could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1 -o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made -to save the life of the President? - -Dr. BAXTER. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were -administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous -medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood -loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors arrived during the course of the -treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? - -Dr. BAXTER. I don't recall--I know that there were more doctors present -in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure -is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the -Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can -the nature of the head wound? - -Dr. BAXTER. The only wound that I actually saw--Dr. Clark examined this -above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was -in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there -was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain -oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a -rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at -the top of the head? - -Dr. BAXTER. No; I personally did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can -the wound which you noticed on the President's neck? - -Dr. BAXTER. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half -above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was -in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical -wound. The edges of it--the size of the wound is measured by the hole -plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small -wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised -in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper -tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of -the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea. -The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left. - -Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which -was immediately above the area of damage--where we thought the damaged -area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the -endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into -the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good -control or perfect control of respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck -sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical -certainty as to what was the cause of the hole? - -Dr. BAXTER. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot -wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect -with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did -not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an -exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found -or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. -However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending -upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that -it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound -could well represent either exit or entry wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you -personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these -additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound -of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border -of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, -being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. -below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of -facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet -shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from -a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per -second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the -President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder -without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline -of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be -consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just -given to you? - -Dr. BAXTER. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of -this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through -tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence -which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a -wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, -would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely? - -Dr. BAXTER. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet -would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which -would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend -to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than -this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would -create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be -the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a -rather large wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you? - -Dr. BAXTER. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit -was not of any greater magnitude than it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet -could have passed in the general direction which I have described to -you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of -great density? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have -described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it -would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of -paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave -which you have heretofore described? - -Dr. BAXTER. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not -ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is -damage that is recognized several days later. - -Mr. SPECTER. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor? - -Dr. BAXTER. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding -tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early -course after a missile has passed through. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, -and nature of the hole of exit? - -Dr. BAXTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without -striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble -at all? - -Dr. BAXTER. No, it would not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with -gunshot wounds? - -Dr. BAXTER. For the past 6 years--we admit and treat, I would estimate, -around 500 gunshot wounds per year--thereabouts. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds? - -Dr. BAXTER. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of -various velocities and that type missile wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him, -Dr. Baxter? - -Dr. BAXTER. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first -saw him until the time he was pronounced dead? - -Dr. BAXTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over? - -Dr. BAXTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would your examination have been conducted in any -different way had this particular victim not been the President of the -United States? - -Dr. BAXTER. I think--yes--in that we would have, particularly, -postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would -certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the -direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under -the circumstances. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances? - -Dr. BAXTER. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of -people in the room by that time--Secret Service Agents, the priests and -so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service -more or less--well, requested that we clear the room and leave them -with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret -Service wished was carried out. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was that? - -Dr. BAXTER. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did, -as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests. - -In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at -that time was such that probably we would not--we didn't feel that we -should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care -of all that we were going to miss. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your -professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was -rendered to the President? - -Dr. BAXTER. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room -was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in -no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment -used in the care of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr. -Baxter? - -Dr. BAXTER. Gunshot wound to the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President -Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the -neck? - -Dr. BAXTER. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck -that would not be well taken care of by simply--by the tracheotomy and -chest tubes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any bullets in the President's body? - -Dr. BAXTER. No, we did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body? - -Mr. BAXTER. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which -has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report -from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a -page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which -you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all, -if that is your signature? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, if this is the report which you submitted? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort -concerning your care of President Kennedy? - -Dr. BAXTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of -your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots? - -Dr. BAXTER. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the -President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On -arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted -respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in -one leg and in the left arm. - -The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first -observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones -were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive -lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated -laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as -noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and -I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace -anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered -by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no -heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a -cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was -obtained. - -Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected, -no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made." - -Mr. SPECTER. And that bears your signature? - -Dr. BAXTER. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery, -Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal -Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today? - -Dr. BAXTER. The only person was a Secret Service Agent -about--approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any -additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the -medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No." - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to -transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss -this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would -ask you? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the answers given on the record here the same as -you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was -started? - -Dr. BAXTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful in any way to the work of the Commission? - -Dr. BAXTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter. - -Dr. BAXTER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS - -The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared -in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to -testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed -by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of -purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right -hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's -Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. JENKINS. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. JENKINS. Marion Thomas Jenkins. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please? - -Dr. JENKINS. I'm a physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice -medicine? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins? - -Dr. JENKINS. Anesthesiology. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background for me, -please? - -Dr. JENKINS. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have -a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical -Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of -Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940-41; Assistant Residency in -Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941-42; -active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946; -Resident in Surgery--Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946-47; Resident in -anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947-48; -and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and -Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman -of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern -Medical School--since 1951. Diplomate--other certification, do you want -this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, what Boards are you certified? - -Dr. JENKINS. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology -and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you certified by the American Board? - -Dr. JENKINS. 1952. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding -your being called into that case? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the -hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires, -being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any -service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call. - -Mr. SPECTER. What does that mean, "Stat"? - -Dr. JENKINS. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has -been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and -one of the surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone, -thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of -Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately -came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from -his face--I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President -has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we -heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway -from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this -was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the -street, but these came on clear to the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the -hospital? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department, -that's on the second floor--one floor above the dining room, where I -was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw, -my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that -the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room -and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including -an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are -used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it -down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in -the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I -guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room? - -Dr. JENKINS. Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be -indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the -clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I -didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the -emergency room, if anyone? - -Dr. JENKINS. The hallway was loaded with people. - -Mr. SPECTER. What medical personnel were in attendance? - -Dr. JENKINS. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service -men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it -turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany--Dick Dulany, I guess you -have his name, and several nurses were in the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you identify the nurses? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later -looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names -of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I -first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it -seemed to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later -observations of them? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the -procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, would you do that for us, please? - -Dr. JENKINS. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss -Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe--I don't -know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Margaret? - -Dr. JENKINS. Margaret--certainly. Those three--there were probably some -student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you -recollect as being in the room? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only -the--actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the President, -two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have -identified all I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition when -you arrived in the emergency room? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This -is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much -trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made -up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are -referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles -of respiration. He had this characteristic of respiration. His eyes -were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, -cyanotic--a purplish cyanosis. - -Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal -type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at -this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because -one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the -activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped, -such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, -he can be saved. - -Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud -of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and -under the circumstances--it was harder--he had just completed a 3-month -rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented -good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had -a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound. - -The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube, -the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go -into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from -both lungs, or both chests. - -There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing -apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected -this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen -by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the -scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with -something I am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, I must insist on -that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation -with 100 percent oxygen. - -As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection. -Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish -of the circumstance. - -Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished -personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered -or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative -procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the -resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, -because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in -their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity -for this being done. - -There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the -neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would -have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. -This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea -and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or -a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley -Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe, -started the tracheotomy. - -About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. -Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious -physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest -drainage--chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not -aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed -chest cardiac massage. - -There were other people--one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in -the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department -connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on -the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the -sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them -on my report, which you have here, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show -you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit -No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital -Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his -possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what -purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963, -and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr. -Price? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the -neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the -endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr. -Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as -accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the -tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up -the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and -respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I -should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound -of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly -demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an -entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course, -entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound -also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression -it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound--for -the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by -recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the wound in the neck as -specifically as you can at this moment? - -Dr. JENKINS. I believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in -the head? - -Dr. JENKINS. Almost by the time I was--had the time to pay more -attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were -under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the -patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia -apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up -and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the -cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention -to the wound in the head. - -Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time -and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each -compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the -skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of -the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there -was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on -the drapes of the cart on which the President lay. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive -loss of skull which you have described? - -Dr. JENKINS. On the right side? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Dr. JENKINS. No--I don't know whether this is right or not, but I -thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the -hairline and right above the zygomatic process. - -Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. -Jenkins. - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for--I was palpating here for a pulse -to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not -and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and -so I thought there was a wound there also. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was President Kennedy -pronounced dead? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300, -according to my watch, at least, at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? - -Dr. JENKINS. Cerebral injury--brain injury. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course -of this treatment at Parkland? - -Dr. JENKINS. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins? - -Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I -think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were -there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong -word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this -was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he -had a fatal wound, and I think my own personal feeling was that this -was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have -done any further search. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your -knowledge? - -Dr. JENKINS. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he -was being cared for? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes, sir. - -Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; let's go off the record a minute. - -(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. -Jenkins.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are back on the record and -Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the -declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to -repeat for the record what you have just said off the record. - -Dr. JENKINS. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as -"chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the -sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there -was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as -brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient -was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and -this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the -electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up. - -However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since -I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued -attempted resuscitative maneuvers. - -When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the -emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and -asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration -job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper -time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not -sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The -time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that -medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be -a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time -they would still have the final rites. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was -declared dead medically? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me -that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal--on -the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back -into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because -they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that -they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put -forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the -priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, -respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My -memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's -the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was -still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your -characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of -facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your -view or opinion. - -Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound -on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of -the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion -process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and -that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon -having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and -approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after -entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile -traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without -violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the -trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which -you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I -have just described? - -Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. -Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that -is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for -this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so -I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard -a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid -probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I -do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of -the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they -have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the -department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular -system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds -of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and -activities during the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in -exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds? - -Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal -Government at any time prior to today? - -Dr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who -showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came -to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the -hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I -had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, -I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your -participation in the treatment of the President? - -Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, -essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have -that. I don't know whether you want it or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it. - -Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however--can I ask you -something off of the record here? - -Mr. SPECTER. Sure. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off -the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a -couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will -ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit -No. 36, for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify -this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill. - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted -to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on -your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the -record--I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question -as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in -your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be? - -Dr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this -would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have -not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of -exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course? - -Mr. SPECTER. It did not. - -Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been -fatal. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds -which you observed were caused by one or two bullets? - -Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been -two bullets--two missiles. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that? - -Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as -I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of -exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought -it was a wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in -connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy? - -Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his -pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must -have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his -chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go -that way. I thought it did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other -opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds -been changed in any way? - -Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a -wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the -hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have -been a wound there (indicating). - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of -entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. -This was my only other question about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your -opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service -Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal -Government prior to today about this subject? - -Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes, as far as I remember--I have had no formal -interviews. I have been asked--there have been some people calling on -the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources -all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done -this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we -followed. - -Mr. SPECTER. But the only one you can identify as being from the -Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret -Service? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before -the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which -you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on -the record? - -Dr. JENKINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything which you think of to add that -you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the -President's Commission in its inquiry? - -Dr. JENKINS. I believe not, Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins. - -Dr. JENKINS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES - -The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March -24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones -has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition -for the President's Commission on the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate -all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment -of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify -concerning your knowledge of that treatment. - -With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your -right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the -President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Dr. JONES. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice -medicine? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the -University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through -1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of -Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in -Los Angeles County General Hospital. - -From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year -general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of -internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery -and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of -Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the -present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at -Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding -your being called into the case? - -Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator -page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time -I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had -been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. - -I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is -the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made -for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of -the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and -notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the -emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the -President had been brought in. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at -the emergency room? - -Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived? - -Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm -not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we -arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time? - -Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name? - -Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now--I know her. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe? - -Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron? - -Dr. JONES. No--just the-- - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson? - -Dr. JONES. Nelson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you -have already mentioned at the time you arrived? - -Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe -and Miss Bowron. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived? - -Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. -Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived? - -Dr. JONES. I didn't see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall? - -Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be -upon your arrival? - -Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and -Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal -respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency -measures to try to restore the airway. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean -an effort by the President? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration? - -Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President -was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see -this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and -started work. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration? - -Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, -that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular -type respirations. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be -the President's condition? - -Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact -that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes -were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the -eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or -was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so -that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted -immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not -adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that -he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that -he was getting adequate oxygen. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the -President then? - -Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted -to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with -Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from -the machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the -President's condition at that time? - -Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds? - -Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small -wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, -and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest -diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of -the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that? - -Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this -time observing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the -wound at that time? Either wound? - -Dr. JONES. Not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of -the head wound? - -Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the -President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging -out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the -brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that -you observed in the throat? - -Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a -quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn -present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood -that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount -of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of -disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to -be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a -result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile -of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a -bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a -very small, smooth wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area? - -Dr. JONES. No; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of -the wound which you have described of the throat? - -Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount -that was around the head--not too much. - -Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in -addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy? - -Dr. JONES. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the -cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to -give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, -and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns -in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in -the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were -started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing -the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in -and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they -made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought -they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on -one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of -the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the -second intercostal space. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor? - -Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was -immediately connected to underwater drainage. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", -Dr. Jones? - -Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in -the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is -forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that -the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give -adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a -chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite -side due to the number of people that were working on the President. -Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as -Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of -us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by -Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President -Kennedy? - -Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood -was started--I believe that the President was also administered some -hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and -at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no -evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by -Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant -or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's -adrenal insufficiency? - -Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President -had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that -he possibly had Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence -that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his -insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of -severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into -a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of -steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed -situation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any -other person on the scene? - -Dr. JONES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the -President had no adrenal insufficiency? - -Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if -the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this -treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already -mentioned? - -Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr. -McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of -just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of -neurosurgery here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors? - -Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily -the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the -President, although there were some other doctors in the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear -your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated -November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as -Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1. - -(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. -1, for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted -concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. JONES. Yes; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, -"Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well -as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet -entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet -entrance wound, sir? - -Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you -would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a -patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at -a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and -if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an -explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this -appeared to have on superficial examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of -low velocity, as you put it? - -Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think -that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just -enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment -of bullet wounds? - -Dr. JONES. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete -year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in -addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every -other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we -see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, -sometimes as many as four and five a night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds? - -Dr. JONES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which -was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 mm. bullet -which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck -without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the -neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of -2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 -feet from the weapon? - -Dr. JONES. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the -anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the -body, but not in the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones? - -Dr. JONES. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a -massive amount of soft tissue destruction. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone -or what? - -Dr. JONES. Probably where it has struck bone. - -Mr. SPECTER. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone -becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating -the soft tissue damage? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to -accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, -as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, -or shortly thereafter? - -Dr. JONES. With no history as to the number of times that the President -had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and -seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an -exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation -that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound -would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a -vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the -posterior portion of the head. However, this was--there was some doubt -that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly -change its course by striking, but at the present--at that time, if I -accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way -I accounted for it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would that account take into consideration the -extensive damage done to the top of the President's head? - -Dr. JONES. If this were the course of the missile, it -probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although I would -possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral -column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also -think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one -that was present at the time we saw it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the -vertebral column? - -Dr. JONES. No, we could not see this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or -doctors? - -Dr. JONES. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. With whom? - -Dr. JONES. With Dr. Perry--is the only one that I recall specifically, -and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, -because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, -the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that -possibly he had been shot more than once. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the President's back? - -Dr. JONES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over? - -Dr. JONES. Not while I was in the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was he on when you first saw him? - -Dr. JONES. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and -can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far -as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so -forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was -brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be -dead? - -Dr. JONES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this -time? - -Dr. JONES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your status on your progress with that, -generally? - -Dr. JONES. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this -year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones? - -Dr. JONES. Thirty-one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of -the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. JONES. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least -two occasions. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you on those occasions? - -Dr. JONES. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was -true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room -with the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they ask you anything else other than that? - -Dr. JONES. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces -of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been -administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them -"No." - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes -before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to -you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting -forth the same information which we have put on the record here today? - -Dr. JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful to the Commission in any way? - -Dr. JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. -Jones. - -Dr. JONES. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS - -The testimony of Dr. Don Teel Curtis was taken at 9:25 a.m., on March -24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that present are Dr. Don Curtis and -the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding -being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the -assassination, including the medical treatment performed for President -Kennedy. - -Dr. Don Curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter -requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical -treatment of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of the -general objective of the Commission and the specific objective of this -deposition proceeding, Dr. Curtis, will you rise and raise your right -hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Presidential -Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. CURTIS. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Don Teel, T-e-e-l (spelling) Curtis. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your occupation or profession? - -Dr. CURTIS. Oral surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. CURTIS. I attended my freshman year at Boulder, Colo., Colorado -University, 2 subsequent years of undergraduate work at Texas -University, 4 years at Baylor Dental College, and I have been interning -here for a year and a half. - -Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from Baylor Dental College? - -Dr. CURTIS. 1962. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time? - -Dr. CURTIS. Twenty-six. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what has your work consisted of here at Parkland -Hospital? - -Dr. CURTIS. I have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now -am a resident this year in oral surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed dentist? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you obtain that status in the State of Texas? - -Dr. CURTIS. I think in August of 1962. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment -of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding -your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort? - -Dr. CURTIS. I was--do you want me to tell from the time that I got to -the emergency room? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes--how did you happen to get to the emergency room? - -Dr. CURTIS. I was in our out-patient clinic and saw the President's -car, or I saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and -I went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the -emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room -where President Kennedy was. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that? - -Dr. CURTIS. I don't know--it was shortly after he arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long after he arrived? - -Dr. CURTIS. I would say it was within--I would say within a minute -after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to -know that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the trauma room at that time? - -Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Carrico and a nurse, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the nurse? - -Dr. CURTIS. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of -President Kennedy at that time? - -Dr. CURTIS. I observed that he was in a supine position, with his head -extended, and I couldn't see on my arrival--I couldn't see the nature -of the wounds, however, Dr. Carrico was standing at the patient's head. -Dr. Carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and I participated in -applying the Bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for -artificial respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. How does it happen that you would participate to that -effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon? - -Dr. CURTIS. We participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries -of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked -onto a patient. We have a tour through anesthesia. We spend time on -general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway -which makes us, I would say, qualified, for airway management. In our -training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on -intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures -attendant with the management of I.V. fluids. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there always someone from oral surgery available at the -trauma area? - -Dr. CURTIS. One of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room -at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the -emergency room. We see many patients in the emergency room area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who -would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes--maxillofacial injuries. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in addition, you help out in a general way when there -is an emergency situation? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything in President Kennedy's condition -which called for the application of your specific specialty? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; there wasn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as -an emergency case? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed -with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what -you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration. - -Dr. CURTIS. It is very difficult to say whether or not the President -was making a respiratory effort, but I'm not sure that he wasn't making -a respiratory effort. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think that he was making a respiratory effort? - -Dr. CURTIS. He could have been, and that's as far as I can go on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe movements of the chest? - -Dr. CURTIS. I thought I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his coloring? - -Dr. CURTIS. He was pink--he wasn't cyanotic when I saw him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for -the record at this point? - -Dr. CURTIS. When the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a -blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of -the hemoglobin is reduced. That's not a lay term either, but when the -patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how does that manifest itself in the patient? - -Dr. CURTIS. The patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action was Dr. Carrico taking upon your arrival? - -Dr. CURTIS. He had placed an endotracheal tube in the President's -trachea for artificial respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he doing anything else? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes; he was applying the Bird machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any? - -Dr. CURTIS. He directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the -emergency room, and I think it was Dr. Carrico directed me to start the -I.V. fluids. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do in response to his -direction? - -Dr. CURTIS. I assisted him in fitting the tube from the Bird machine -to the endotracheal tube and I assisted in removing some of the -President's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown -on his leg? - -Dr. CURTIS. A small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is -bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous -catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then -tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with -sutures. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you do anything else to the President following -that operative procedure? - -Dr. CURTIS. Then, the initial cutdown that I started was ineffective -and infiltrated into the tissues. I think possibly I cut the knot -too close of the purse string ligature, so I was getting ready to do -another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other -leg, it wouldn't be necessary. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other action did you take, if any, in the treatment -of the President? - -Dr. CURTIS. That's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you remain in the trauma room No. 1? - -Dr. CURTIS. I did until he was pronounced dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room -while you were there? - -Dr. CURTIS. My attention was focused on what I was doing, so I wasn't -aware--I knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all -I could see. I mean, I knew that a tracheotomy was being performed. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors were present there at that time? - -Dr. CURTIS. I know that Dr. Perry was there and I know Dr. Baxter was -there, and then I recall Dr. Jenkins from the Anesthesia Department, -and Dr. Seldin, Dr. Crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors--I could -think of others probably, but I can't remember now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other nurses who were there? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I can't--I wasn't paying attention to the nurses. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your presence near President Kennedy, -did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body? - -Dr. CURTIS. After I had completed the cutdown, I went around to the -right side of the patient and saw the head wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there? - -Dr. CURTIS. Oh--fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial -contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the President? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. As I said before, I noticed the mass in the -pre-tracheal area. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "as you said before," you mean in our -previous discussions prior to going on the record here? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you state now for the record what you did notice -with respect to the tracheal area? - -Dr. CURTIS. The President's head was extended or hyperextended and I -noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked -like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues. - -Mr. SPECTER. How big was that hematoma? - -Dr. CURTIS. Oh, I think it was 5 cm. in size. - -Mr. SPECTER. What color was it? - -Dr. CURTIS. It had no color--there was just skin overlying it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did it appear to be? - -Dr. CURTIS. Probably a hematoma. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's -throat? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it? - -Dr. CURTIS. I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and -that's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about -an opening on his neck? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report concerning your activity -on the President? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your -work with the President? - -Dr. CURTIS. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal -Government about your participation in treating President Kennedy -before today? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I haven't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that we went on the record here with the -court reporter, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning -the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which I would -ask you on the record? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the -record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter -started taking notes? - -Dr. CURTIS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the Commission in its work? - -Dr. CURTIS. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Curtis, for coming here today. - -Dr. CURTIS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. FOUAD A. BASHOUR - -The testimony of Dr. Fouad A. Bashour was taken at 1:15 p.m., on March -25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Fouad Bashour has appeared -pursuant to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with the Commission's -inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the -President, including medical treatment received at Parkland Hospital, -and Dr. Bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the -emergency room. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Bashour, would you mind -rising and then raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. BASHOUR. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. BASHOUR. F-o-u-a-d (spelling), Fouad A. Bashour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Mr. BASHOUR. I am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. I -am associate professor of medicine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice -medicine here? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified at the present time? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; I don't have my board because I am not yet a -citizen. I will be taking my citizenship this year, I hope, and then I -will be able to sit for the board. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of -President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors' -dining room, and we went directly to the President Kennedy room. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Seldin and myself--we left the dining room and went -right straight down to the President's room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Seldin's first name? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Donald. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is his specialty, if any? - -Dr. BASHOUR. He's chairman of the department of medicine and professor -of medicine. He is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in -renal diseases. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine -involve? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Kidney diseases. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin accompany you into the emergency room where -President Kennedy was located? - -Dr. BASHOUR. We went to the room together and then I was left alone -because this is a problem--a heart problem. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin remain in the room with you? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Well, he came and stayed for--he just left the room after -we came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did he stay in the room? - -Dr. BASHOUR. A few seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the room when you arrived? - -Dr. BASHOUR. When I arrived, Dr. Kemp Clark was doing the cardiac -massage on the President, Dr. Jenkins was in charge of controlling -artificial respiration of the President, and the probably there were -some three or four--I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be -at the time you arrived? - -Dr. BASHOUR. The President was lying on the stretcher, the head wound -was massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time -the President had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated, -his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no -pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were -cold. - -Then, we attached the scope--the cardioscope and there was a flip, -this was probably artificial. Upon stopping the cardiac machine, there -was no cardiac activity. That means the heart was standing still. We -continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so -the President was declared dead shortly thereafter. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was he declared dead? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Well, according to my notes, we said here, "Declared dead -about 12:55," or so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general -approximation? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; approximation. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, Dr. -Bashour? - -Dr. BASHOUR. On the scope--some change in the baseline of the scope. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that indicate some activity in the President's heart? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; not necessarily. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else could have accounted for the flip besides that? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Anything extraneous could have accounted for that. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you require a number of flips before you inquire if -there is heart activity? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it depends on the configuration of the flip--if the -flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity--it shows cardiac activity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or -not? - -Dr. BASHOUR. It wasn't, as far as I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is your field, is it not, you read those flips? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw -was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity? - -Dr. BASHOUR. As a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was -nothing. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who is "he"? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Clark, who was doing the cardiac massage. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else was done to the President, if anything, in -addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived -on the scene? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Really, as far as I know, it was the end of the -scene--nothing was done afterward. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you -have just described? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No; I did not observe any wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the front part of the -President's neck upon your arrival? - -Dr. BASHOUR. The only thing--it was covered with the endotracheal -tube--I did not really pay attention to it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before -the tracheotomy was performed? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No; I came after everything was done to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I show you a group of papers heretofore marked -as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I call your attention to the -photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you -on November 22, 1963, at 4:45 p.m., is that your report? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that in fact your signature? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein the essence of what -you observed and what you know about this matter? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government -prior to today about your treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. BASHOUR. There was a security officer or something called me on the -phone one day and said did I write any note besides this note on the -chart, and I said "No." I don't know his name even. - -Mr. SPECTER. What note was he referring to? - -Dr. BASHOUR. This note here. - -Mr. SPECTER. He asked you if you wrote what? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Other notes than this. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you had any other notes? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other notes other than the one I have -just shown you? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service agent ask you anything else other -than that? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the -Federal Government on any occasion prior to today? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, did you and I talk for a few minutes about the type -of questions I would be asking you during this deposition? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have given me on the -record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told -me before she arrived? - -Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, will you give me just an outline of your educational -background, Doctor? - -Dr. BASHOUR. I got my baccalaureate from French Government in -1941--first part. I got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics -and science in 1942, I got my B.A. degree in 1944 from the American -University of Beirut, my M.D. degree in 1949, and my Ph. D. in 1957 -from the University of Minnesota. I came back to this country in 1959 -from the American University of Beirut, as an instructor, and from 1959 -to 1963 I jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate -professor in February 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think will be -helpful in any way to the President's Commission? - -Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Bashour. - -Dr. BASHOUR. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN - -The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in -response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition -taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being -asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if -any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland -Hospital and his treatment here. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and -raise your right hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. AKIN. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? - -Dr. AKIN. Gene Coleman Akin. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Dr. AKIN. Medicine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice -medicine? - -Dr. AKIN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any specialty? - -Dr. AKIN. Anesthesiology. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you board-certified? - -Dr. AKIN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board-certification? - -Dr. AKIN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. AKIN. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical -school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas, -internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at -Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school? - -Dr. AKIN. 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor? - -Dr. AKIN. Thirty-four. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President -John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. AKIN. Briefly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state how you came to be called into the case? - -Dr. AKIN. I was notified while I was on duty in the operating suite of -the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency -room. President Kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought -to the emergency room, and I immediately went down the back elevator -to the emergency room to see if I could be of assistance, and when I -walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. President Kennedy still -had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the -connector from this to the Bird respirator was removed. The anesthesia -machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and Dr. Jenkins -connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed -there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the -tracheotomy, at which time I connected the breathing tubes from the -anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while Dr. -Jenkins controlled the ventilation with 100-percent oxygen from the -anesthesia machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist Dr. Jenkins then in his work? - -Dr. AKIN. Only insofar as I held the endotracheal connector in place -into the tracheotomy tube. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors in addition to Dr. Jenkins then were present, -if any, at the time of your arrival? - -Dr. AKIN. You mean everybody in the room? I don't know that I can name -all of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Name as many as you can, if you will, please? - -Dr. AKIN. There was Dr. Jenkins, there was myself for a brief period, -there was Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Jackie Hunt--they left shortly after -arriving. I heard later that they had gone across the hall to Governor -Connally's room to assist him; Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, -Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Bob McClelland, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Ron Jones, -was there. I think, shortly after I arrived, and Dr. Fouad Bashour -came in from cardiology; Dr. Don Seldin walked in briefly, I can't -remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs--I can't -remember that. This is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days -later we went through the same business over again and I am liable to -say that there was somebody there that worked on Kennedy that actually -had worked on Oswald, because I was on the Oswald mess too. This is all -that I remember were positively there. I remember their being there, -but there were others that I am not sure of. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition? - -Dr. AKIN. He looked moribund in my medical judgment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first -saw him? - -Dr. AKIN. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the -cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of -this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across -with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the -right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain -substance extruding. - -Mr. SPECTER. Returning to the wound which you first described, can you -state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw -it? - -Dr. AKIN. I don't think I could--this is about all I noticed. I noticed -this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he -sustained the wound. My attention, because of my standing on the right -side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon -directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe -whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the -portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy? - -Dr. AKIN. It was slightly ragged around the edges. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you said that---- - -Dr. AKIN. No powder burns; I didn't notice any powder burns. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without -regards to the tracheotomy which was being started? - -Dr. AKIN. It looked--it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. It -was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you mean when you just made your reference to the -academic aspect with the wound, Dr. Akin? - -Dr. AKIN. Well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that -this might have been an entrance wound. I immediately thought it could -also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile -that made the wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would be the circumstances on which it might be one -or the other? - -Dr. AKIN. Well, if the President had been shot with a low velocity -missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an -entrance wound, is that what you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. AKIN. If, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military -type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an -exit wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an -exit wound with respect to the rifle? - -Dr. AKIN. Well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military -rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or -steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted -when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet -leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but -like I said, I didn't devote much time to conjecture about this. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot -wounds, doctor? - -Dr. AKIN. I can't really give you, say, how many cases a week I see of -this. Most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation -with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot -injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller -caliber--.22 caliber to .38 caliber, and most of them are not injured -in a through and through fashion. In other words, I don't see too many -exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and -don't leave it. They usually stay in it, so consequently I could not be -considered an expert in exit wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into -Parkland Hospital, would you say? - -Dr. AKIN. What I have just described, you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. AKIN. Yes; I think so. Most of the people seem to be shot with -cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you -have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at -Parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen -on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen? - -Dr. AKIN. I think so, except there is one difference--I am not -ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so I am not very often the -first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. When I -see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who -lived to make it to the operating room. We, I'm sure, have a lot of -people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room, -and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and I never -see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that I never -have seen. They might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality -ammunition, and I would not have seen them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of -facts which I will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an -opinion, if you are able to formulate one. Assume that the President -was struck by a 6.5 mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of -approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was -approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the weapon. Assume further that -the bullet entered the President's body in the upper right posterior -thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. -from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of -the right mastoid process. Assume further that the missile traveled -through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating -either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back -and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura -cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited -from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have -described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound -of exit under the factors that I have just outlined to you? - -Dr. AKIN. As far as I know, it is perfectly compatible from what you -have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring -the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of -the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck? - -Mr. SPECTER. The anterior strap muscles of the neck. - -Dr. AKIN. It's a matter of clarification because there are no strap -muscles posterior, by my terminology. Yes, this is perfectly consistent -with what I know about, or what I have been told by military experts, -concerning high velocity missile injuries. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis of your information from the -military experts you just referred to? - -Dr. AKIN. Military rifle demonstrations when I was a senior student -at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. We took a brief two day tour -there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe -below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound -in the back of the head? - -Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's -head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and -skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the President's -clothes? - -Dr. AKIN. I noticed them. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see -what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet? - -Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. The front of the chest was uncovered, the pants -had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only -article of clothing I noticed in particular was his back corset. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the back corset which -you just mentioned? - -Dr. AKIN. It had been loosened and was just lying loose. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was? - -Dr. AKIN. The only portion I saw was the front portion of the corset -and it was about, I'd say, 5 or 6 inches in width, and made out of -some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any Ace bandage strapping the President's -buttocks area? - -Dr. AKIN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that area of his anatomy visible to you? - -Dr. AKIN. Not his buttocks, he was lying supine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge? - -Dr. AKIN. Not while I was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you there altogether, Dr. Akin? - -Dr. AKIN. Oh, probably 15, maybe 20--perhaps 20 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when he was pronounced to be dead? - -Dr. AKIN. Yes--I didn't leave until Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins had -mutually agreed that nothing else could be done. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was he pronounced dead? - -Dr. AKIN. 1300 hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? - -Dr. AKIN. Massive gunshot injury to the brain--primary cause. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have already described some of the treatment which was -performed on the President; could you supplement that by describing -what else was done for the President? - -Dr. AKIN. Other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial -respiration, brief external cardiac massage--I don't know. Anything -else I said would be hearsay, and I understand that he did receive some -cortisone. He received so much Ringer's lactate, but this is not of my -own personal knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on -the President, Dr. Akin? - -Dr. AKIN. Probably two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in -connection with your observations of the President or any opinions you -formed in connection with what you saw? - -Dr. AKIN. You mean as to how he was injured? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, as to how he was injured. - -Dr. AKIN. Well, no; not really because I didn't have any opinions, -necessarily. Any speculation that I might have done about how he was -injured was just that, it was just speculation. I didn't form an -opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and -where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so I didn't -have any opinions. It was my immediate assumption that when I saw the -extent of the head wound, I assumed at that point that he had probably -been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage -that had been done. The same thing happened to his head and would -happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity -missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opinion as to the direction that the -bullet hit his head? - -Dr. AKIN. I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the -exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side -of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I -didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the -Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. AKIN. You mean concerning this matter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Concerning this matter. - -Dr. AKIN. I think I was probably interviewed by a member of the Secret -Service some weeks ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him? - -Dr. AKIN. Virtually the same thing, as I recall--I didn't make as long -a statement, he just wanted to know where I was and what I did and I -told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only time you have been interviewed by any -representative of the Federal Government concerning this matter prior -to today? - -Dr. AKIN. Yes; as far as I can remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And before I started to take your deposition, did you and -I have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and -the questions I would ask you? - -Dr. AKIN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me about the same information, exactly -the same information you have put on the record here this morning? - -Dr. AKIN. To my knowledge; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of -assistance to the President's Commission in their inquiry? - -Dr. AKIN. No; I don't think so. I don't know exactly if there is any -disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people -who have testified, so I don't know. This is all I saw. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. Thank you very much, Dr. Akin. - -Dr. AKIN. That's all right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS - -The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March -24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present, -having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in -connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects -of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President -Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of -events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if -anything, concerning that medical attention. - -With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask -you to rise and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. PETERS. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. PETERS. Paul Conrad Peters. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? - -Dr. PETERS. Doctor of medicine. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline for me briefly your educational -background? - -Dr. PETERS. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington, -Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950, -and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took -my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I -took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from -1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F. -Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was -regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since -July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern -Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters? - -Dr. PETERS. I am certified by the American Board of Urology--1960. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical services to -President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. PETERS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating -to your arriving on the scene where he was? - -Dr. PETERS. As I just gave you a while ago? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. PETERS. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing -material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in -the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot -and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent -of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I -thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he -would probably be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the -emergency room to see if I could render assistance. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency -room? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, could I ask a question or two? - -Mr. SPECTER. Sure. - -Dr. PETERS. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that -correct? - -Mr. SPECTER. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. -Peters. - -Dr. PETERS. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got -there, I really don't know for certain. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived? - -Dr. PETERS. When I arrived the following people I noted were present -in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first -thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the -stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be -placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in -shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and -that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones -was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do -to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know -it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he -and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of -tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then -helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into -the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any others present at that time, before you go -on as to what aid you rendered? - -Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present? - -Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that -time? - -Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a -moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President -and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone -who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I -don't remember his name. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley? - -Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, -because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which -was done. - -Mr. SPECTER. He requested that. - -Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because -he was an Addisonian. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex -which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain -hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these -hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the -individual may succumb. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal -physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian? - -Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids -because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time? - -Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, -but they were coming in and out. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the -best of your recollection? - -Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there? - -Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or -have you now given me everyone you can recall? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I -walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark -also came in during the maneuvering. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative -procedures? - -Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I -believe, came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come in? - -Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy. - -Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and -a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was -determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the -wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling -sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. -Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put -it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest, -and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right -side? - -Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what else was done for the President? - -Dr. PETERS. About the same time--there was a question of whether he -really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his -pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received -a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic -bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight -fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage? - -Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that -he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an -additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite -interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an -ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. -I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at -the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral -pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type -of brace he was wearing? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset. - -Mr. SPECTER. How thick was it? - -Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch. - -Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick? - -Dr. PETERS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection. - -Mr. SPECTER. It encompassed his midsection? - -Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess -about 8 to 11 inches. - -Mr. SPECTER. In width? - -Dr. PETERS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the -lower part of his chest? - -Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his -chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he -had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should -open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the -tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to -apparatus for assisting his respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart -massage? - -Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had -been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had -observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared -to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart -massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, -and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct -massage of the heart itself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President? - -Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of -the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the -question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there -was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately -began external chest compression. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes -were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, -and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to -administer fluid and blood which he did receive. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given -the President? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead? - -Dr. PETERS. That's correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made? - -Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can -tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that. - -Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, -present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time -there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, -the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others -by that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest -first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those -people I have just named. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to -leave? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he -thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention -to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked -around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's -wound? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been -interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I -noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a -large defect in the occiput. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you notice in the occiput? - -Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area -that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain -loss in the area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this -area below here? - -Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately -following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once -or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted -the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity -missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of -exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were they? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or -twice--that was my question at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that? - -Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically? - -Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed -it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his -neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed? - -Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by -Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the -wound on his neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of -President Kennedy? - -Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any -notes of any sort? - -Dr. PETERS. No; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion? - -Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the -centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal -Government about this matter prior to today? - -Dr. PETERS. No; I have not. - -Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you -and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and -the questions that I would ask you? - -Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew -the general nature of the testimony which I would give. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the discussion? - -Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by -Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this -room today before the court reporter came in? - -Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of -assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation? - -Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the -President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very -much obliged to you. - -Dr. PETERS. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR. - -The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 -p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., -by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is -present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear -at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's -Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, -including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital. - -Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of -the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at -Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement -of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and -raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this -President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the -truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please, for the record? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling). - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of -Texas? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go? - -Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, -please. - -Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of -Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school -in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University -of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at -William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served -24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. -I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. -Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a -3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have -been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern -Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were -called into that matter? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins -approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and -asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room -to the emergency room, which I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, -approximately? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now -referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. -Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the -reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1." - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit -No. 1," for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. -Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted -to Mr. Price? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy. - -Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and -correct? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by -you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally? - -Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer -the last question. - -Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between -12:40 and 12:45. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. -Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at -the same time that I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other people present, such as nurses? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't -say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't -remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, -with Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from -being with Governor Connally? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because -Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty -and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico -went to President Kennedy. - -Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived? - -Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent -when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there -was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no -spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he -made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved -around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia -machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to -hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, -I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain -substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the -cranial wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the -cranial wound? - -Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from -the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the -cranium was entirely missing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand -side of the head? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time--really. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the -large area of missing skull? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at -that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the -cranium. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole -below the portion of missing skull? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see -this. - -Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. -Clark? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it -and I didn't notice it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole. - -Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if -you recollect? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about -these things--I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's -neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, -and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy -wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the -endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy -tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior -chest tube. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during -the time you were there? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing -a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic -electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the -skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the -wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there -were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where -the President was? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally -was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the -operating room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any? - -Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me--I had taken my equipment -with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that -Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the -elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on -the first elevator and I caught the second one. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator? - -Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved -off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set -up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from -the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe -operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with -him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to -questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and -proceeded to induce an anesthesia. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection -with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. -Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about -this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, Dr. -Giesecke? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins -and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it -with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the -American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. -Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which -is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then -discussed it with the Secretary of--may I retract that. That's about -it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of -the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any -representative of the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here -who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented"? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to -be legitimate. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything? - -Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other -notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence -it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other -information written down except what I had already given." - -Mr. SPECTER. And what had you already given--that letter report? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the -Federal Government about this matter? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, -did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition -proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the -record here after the court reporter started to take everything down? - -Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few -minutes before we started. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation? - -Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine. - -Dr. GIESECKE. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT - -The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on -March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, -and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all -the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the -medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial -Hospital. - -Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her -deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact -that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor. - -Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. HUNT. I do, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? - -Dr. HUNT. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling). - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession? - -Dr. HUNT. Medical doctor. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the -State of Texas? - -Dr. HUNT. I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what year were you so licensed? - -Dr. HUNT. 1950. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. HUNT. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine -in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of -pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, -which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time? - -Dr. HUNT. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board certification? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid -to the late President Kennedy? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your -being called into the case? - -Dr. HUNT. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology -department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, -that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and -Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and -checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took -it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been -intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to -the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by -a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were -properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt? - -Dr. HUNT. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry--quite a number of others--I just -can't remember who was there today. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any nurses present? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes--I don't know the names of any of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of -President Kennedy? - -Dr. HUNT. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes -were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I -assumed that he was in essence dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency -room? - -Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would have been--I would think near 12:45, -but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't -remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity -to observe the President in the way which you have just described? - -Dr. HUNT. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, ma'am. - -Dr. HUNT. A minute--2 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other observations at that time? - -Dr. HUNT. No--other than that everyone was working on him. They were -doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and -others were being started. - -Mr. SPECTER. I.V.'s? - -Dr. HUNT. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was -breathing for him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by -that? - -Dr. HUNT. Ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea -attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by -manual compression of the bag, ventilating him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on the President? - -Dr. HUNT. I actually did not see the wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time see a wound to the head? - -Dr. HUNT. No; I didn't see it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing -the head wound? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great -deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I -was on his left side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body? - -Dr. HUNT. I was about midbody actually, well, no--more at his shoulder, -when I leaned over to look at him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck? - -Dr. HUNT. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that -because I assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there -was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of his throat when you first -observed him, if you did observe it at all? - -Dr. HUNT. I couldn't--I don't know--I can't say. You mean, as far as -inside or outside? - -Mr. SPECTER. Outside. - -Dr. HUNT. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's -hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area. - -Mr. SPECTER. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his -throat? - -Dr. HUNT. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his -throat? - -Dr. HUNT. No--that's not to say that they were not doing one. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else was done for the President other than that which -you have already described? - -Dr. HUNT. Well, let's see, I don't--as far as actual observation, -I didn't--other things were done--I left at this time and went to -Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy? - -Dr. HUNT. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left? - -Dr. HUNT. No; he had not. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go when you left the President's room? - -Dr. HUNT. Straight across to operating room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived -there? - -Dr. HUNT. Governor Connally was present there and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived? - -Dr. HUNT. Red Duke--I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others -were. There were three or four. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action was being taken with respect to Governor -Connally upon your arrival there? - -Dr. HUNT. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had -one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an I.V. -going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking -other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his -leg, I think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up -to surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do on that occasion? - -Dr. HUNT. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did -was to look at the Governor--I took his pulse and he spoke to me and -said something, and noted his color. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the Governor say to you? - -Dr. HUNT. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real -specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought -type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I -stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who -has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I -happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go -upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in -and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe -the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad -that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should -have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table -down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, -but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that -critical. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate any further with the treatment of -Governor Connally? - -Dr. HUNT. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room -where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from -our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would -come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a -different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor--Dr. -Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the -surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you go upstairs, by what route? - -Dr. HUNT. I don't know--I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating -rooms? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes; there are four elevators. - -Mr. SPECTER. But do those lead from the emergency rooms? - -Dr. HUNT. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground -floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go -through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes; they can--they come up to these. - -Mr. SPECTER. What route would they have to take to do this? - -Dr. HUNT. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room -and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be a pretty long route, would it not? - -Dr. HUNT. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces -even, but there are three elevators there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What route did Governor Connally use? - -Dr. HUNT. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that -comes down into the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from -the emergency area into the operating room? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up--they -usually use that one. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there at that time? - -Dr. HUNT. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there -earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment -in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the -electrocardiogram. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room? - -Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 -minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall--I -didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in -and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and -stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until -they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or -5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and -it had arrived and been there a few minutes--3 or 4 minutes before we -were ready to take him upstairs. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was going on in the President's room when you -returned there? - -Dr. HUNT. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at -least 10 people, possibly there were more--I'm not real sure, but -there were still--at that time there were, I know, at least three -anesthesiologists in there--Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, -and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they still working on the President at that time? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay on that occasion? - -Dr. HUNT. Just, oh, a minute--just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's -eye and let him know I was there and going out. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever return to the President's room? - -Dr. HUNT. No; I don't believe I did--no; I'm sure I didn't, because I -came on upstairs with Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's -operation? - -Dr. HUNT. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal -Government prior to today? - -Dr. HUNT. No; I haven't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report of your participation in -the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy? - -Dr. HUNT. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I -think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements -for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that--I did not -appear before them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports yourself? - -Dr. HUNT. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your -participation? - -Dr. HUNT. None whatsoever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down -the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a -brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the questions I would ask you? - -Dr. HUNT. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the -record the same as you told me before the written deposition started? - -Dr. HUNT. Elaborated somewhat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of -aid to the Commission in its investigation? - -Dr. HUNT. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt. - -Dr. HUNT. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER - -The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present -in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken -in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking -into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President -and the care he received at Parkland Hospital. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand -up and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. SALYER. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the -Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the -taking of testimony? - -Dr. SALYER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today -without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have -a right to, if you wish? - -Dr. SALYER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that right, is that right? - -Dr. SALYER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. SALYER. Kenneth Everett Salyer. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Dr. SALYER. Physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of -Texas? - -Dr. SALYER. Yes; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. SALYER. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree -at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a -first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you graduate from the University of -Kansas Medical School? - -Dr. SALYER. 1962. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer? - -Dr. SALYER. I am 27. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your -being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy? - -Dr. SALYER. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation -on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that -day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to -neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room -to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that -the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the -emergency room and see what the situation was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was -present? - -Dr. SALYER. Oh, I don't recall--I know that there were a room full of -doctors--I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you please? - -Dr. SALYER. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I -remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob -McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene -Akin was there also--at that time, when I first came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you think of any others? - -Dr. SALYER. No; I don't recall any others--there could have been some, -there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly -were a lot of nurses in there at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there? - -Dr. SALYER. No; I can't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived? - -Dr. SALYER. It was critical. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds -he may have sustained? - -Dr. SALYER. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of -some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right -temporal region--these were the two main wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat? - -Dr. SALYER. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people--a -lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think -just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also -arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who? - -Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is his name? - -Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman--Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think, -briefly. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long was he there? - -Dr. SALYER. I couldn't say--I'm not sure he came in the room. I know -they were together--I cannot say that for sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate? - -Dr. SALYER. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We -were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle -of blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident? - -Dr. SALYER. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I -remember him specifically because we were sort of working there -together on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an -opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat. - -Dr. SALYER. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your answer to that question? - -Dr. SALYER. The answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing -around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in -the throat. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency -room where the President was situated? - -Dr. SALYER. I really don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done for the President by way of treatment that -you observed? - -Dr. SALYER. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some -external cardiac massage--he had I.V.'s--intravenous fluids going in a -number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him. - -Mr. SPECTER. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer. - -Dr. SALYER. I said--all of the many other measures that we -administered--I don't recall specifically some of the other details as -far as medications and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the head wound? - -Dr. SALYER. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his -major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the -point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other -than he did have a gaping scalp wound--cranial wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about -your observations of this matter? - -Dr. SALYER. No one has. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid -to the President's Commission in its inquiry? - -Dr. SALYER. No, I believe not. - -Dr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer. - -Dr. SALYER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE - -The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March -25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in -response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken -because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the -doctors in attendance on President Kennedy. - -Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order -creating the Presidential Commission? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution -setting forth the rules for taking depositions? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the -3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to -receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before -you appear to have your deposition taken? - -Dr. WHITE. No, I want to have it taken now. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. WHITE. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. WHITE. Martin G. White. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. WHITE. M.D.--physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice -medicine? - -Dr. WHITE. In this institution. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, please? - -Dr. WHITE. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern -University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University -and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Doctor? - -Dr. WHITE. Twenty-five. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being -treated on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. WHITE. I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were the circumstances of your being called into -the case? - -Dr. WHITE. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the -emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was -brought into the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do in connection with the President's -treatment? - -Dr. WHITE. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds? - -Dr. WHITE. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the -trauma room where he was treated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wounds? - -Dr. WHITE. No, I did not see any other. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck? - -Dr. WHITE. I did not look and did not observe any. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present while the President was being -treated? - -Dr. WHITE. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to -be dead? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you leave? - -Dr. WHITE. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, -with the Governor, to be done. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White? - -Dr. WHITE. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians -immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a -number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was -lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, -Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what doctors were present at the time you left the -room? - -Dr. WHITE. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the -people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry -and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--I know they were there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who--what is his first name? - -Dr. WHITE. William Zedelitz. - -Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did he participate? - -Dr. WHITE. I don't believe that he had any--I don't know what he did -other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by -just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is he an intern as you are? - -Dr. WHITE. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present? - -Dr. WHITE. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I -say--many people were there whose faces I can't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, Jeanette, and -her last name--I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse -in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doris Nelson? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Jeanette Standridge? - -Dr. WHITE. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of -help to the Commission? - -Dr. WHITE. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming. - -Dr. WHITE. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW - -The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, -1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, -having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in -connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the -medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw -has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on -Governor Connally. - -Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Dr. SHAW. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? - -Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan -in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at -Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my -training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, -Mich., July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened -subsequent to then? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form -subsequent to that date, please? - -Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, -August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, -with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, -when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United -States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of -operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until -June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the -Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date -of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic -surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the -University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in -to care for the Governor, please? - -Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school -from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is -approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past -the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard -under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on -to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President -had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the -medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other -medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in -dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that -Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I -proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived -at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and -Governor Connally had arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. -Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency -room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David -Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the -open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy -dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had -been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of -the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about -partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle -had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was -running. - -I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent -to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood, to be -available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been -alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the -Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to -be debrided and closed. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, -of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about -right--but I have to refresh my memory. - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the -operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit -No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the records of Parkland -Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call -your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, -under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor -Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by -you? - -Dr. SHAW. It was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as -to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m.? - -Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude? - -Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, -directing your attention first to the wound on his back? - -Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined, it was found that -there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and -approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right -posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. The arm pit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the -nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, -approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the -pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro -between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body. - -Mr. SPECTER. Define the pleura, please, Doctor, in lay language. - -Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer -of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, -diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body -containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds -which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a -wound of exit, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller -wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or -slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it -has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the -wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in -evaluating gunshot wounds? - -Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and -wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience -was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time -that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period -of approximately a year. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total -number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat? - -Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds -seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a -thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the -point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the -Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed? - -Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the -trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact -that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding. - -Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw---- - -Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there? - -Mr. SPECTER. Please do. - -Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall -struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting -direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. -The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth -rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, -which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in -deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line? - -Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the -rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the -rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there -was very little in the way of deflection. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Dr. Shaw, I would like to call your -attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. -Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his -deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, -first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the -point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is -accurate? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider -to be quite accurate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, -or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that -characterization by picture? - -Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say -that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting -of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a -centimeter and a half in length. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best -you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you -first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that? - -(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, -showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of -the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of -Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it -was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. - -Off the record, just a minute. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called -my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly -depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the -nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a -little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which -would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, -more in line with the actual position of the nipple. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does -that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor -Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line? - -Dr. SHAW. It does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we -have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you -would, please? - -Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. - -(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in -drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point -of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation -on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two -wounds as I have shown on the other figure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder -there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can -recollect it on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. This is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is -just about the size that it would have been on his body? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale. - -Mr. SPECTER. In good scale to the body? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in -terms of its absolute size? - -Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be--about like that--do you want me to mark -that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle. - -Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit." - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your -initials under it. - -(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of -exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1. - -Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on -the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through -Governor Connally's chest? - -Dr. SHAW. It does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in -further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1? - -Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record? - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that -the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, -but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be -helpful to us? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful -by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you -performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for -him? - -Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an -endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled -with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been -applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better -inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the -damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework -of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the -skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile. - -The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and -aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the -whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit -and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered -with a sterile towel. - -First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the -wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in -a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and -subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the -bullet where the chest had been softened. - -It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been -shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been -the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall -and to the underlying lung. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting -as secondary missiles"? - -Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments -and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling -ball--they fly in all directions. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment -which you performed? - -Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously -damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal -muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been -stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but -this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be -repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been -torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion -of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with -a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed -from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle -lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two -equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but -had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle -lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating -the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then -approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral -surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut. - -Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the -anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak. - -Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma -in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into -the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the -surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly -caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress -suture No. 3 O chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close -this laceration from which blood was oozing. - -Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined -but no injury was found. - -The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in -the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded -into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than -necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in -the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these -tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth -intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted -sutures of No. O chromic gut. - -The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then -approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The -laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with -No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous -tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the -lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up -through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was -marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with -interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin -was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. - -Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin -surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging -the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this -wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and -the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration -in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the -laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted -vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into -the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape -and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the -operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and -Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the -right wrist and left thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the -right wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably -not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the -lower end of the right radius and I saw one large wound on the--I -guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small -wound on the dorsum of the right wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. -Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the -volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright -or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on -the dorsum. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led -you to that conclusion? - -Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound -that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was -my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, -that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we -go off the record? - -Mr. SPECTER. Sure. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness Dr. Shaw off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, let's go back on the record. - -Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a -cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the -responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your -operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I -believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room -before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was -scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a -compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand -that would need his attention. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record -here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible -angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation -to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which -you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural -position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view -of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning -and put on the record very much of the comments and observations -you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this -deposition has proceeded. - -Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the -wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you -have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar -side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the -wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry -is smaller and the point of exit is larger. - -Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your -thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller -point of exit on the wrist. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor -Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of -the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the -volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound -until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the -wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the -skin through which a missile had obviously passed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the -wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your -recollection? - -Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the -larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the -wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from -Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the -junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 -cm. in length. - -Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you -observed? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that -would correspond with the wound I observed. - -Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound -of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was -that perhaps that was the wound of exit? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor -Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the -attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion -would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact -with the anterior portion of the right chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound -on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry -because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the -dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in -trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into -a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the -wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the -chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the -arm wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard -the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not -be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of -a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were -sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting -either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the -elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary -motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an -angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving -toward his body. - -Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. -If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm -here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get -my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the -trajectory of the bullet into the chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went -through the wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one -bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the -wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the -point of entrance and which was the point of exit? - -Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist -was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially -spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, -fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled -out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment -of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left -thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing -through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, -or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum -of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of -entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too -dissimilar in size. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the -size of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on -the dorsal aspect of the wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was -about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but -I didn't make an accurate observation at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed -you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the -wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the -size of fragments which remained in the femur. - -Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this -wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential -manner---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh? - -Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a -tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit -in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual -size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would -make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture -wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very -small fragment in the femur? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion -as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the -appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, -and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that -the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought -that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a -fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving -that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the -wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through -the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the -characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone? - -Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could -be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking -his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had -never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question -of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had -that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be -as to which point was entry and which point was exit? - -Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller -than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, -if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and -this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as -to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean on the volar aspect? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more -bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the -wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the -fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in -carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the -volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect? - -Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass -through the wrist, but struck the wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you -postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did -not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit -from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I -would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the -thought that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at -it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the -wounds on the two sides of the wrist. - -Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute? - -Mr. SPECTER. Sure--off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect -that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's -thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, -that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and -tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's -attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is -reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine -bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which -was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was -from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you -would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the -situation? - -Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment -which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that. - -Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial -side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial -side? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the -way through. - -Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and -could have gone on through. - -Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a -lot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible. - -Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible--I -think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his -coat and no hole on this side---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side---- - -Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the -situation. - -Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve--the -sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever -had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events -of the day he was shot? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. -The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a -bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle -shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been -injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost -immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. -He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he -stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal? - -Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot -before he felt this wound in his chest? - -Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear--no, -wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he -doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He -only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard -three. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three? - -Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots? - -Dr. SHAW. Two shots. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was -hit by the second shot and lost consciousness? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from -hearing the rifle report. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he -was wounded by a second shot? - -Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said -he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of -wounding to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard -President Kennedy say anything? - -Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's -the only thing he told me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the -President say anything? - -Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. -Connally told me on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the -present time? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an -end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay -at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts -that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been -struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, -assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per -second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a -distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President -Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and -exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor -Connally's chest in your opinion? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by -the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the -position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly -possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues -of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found -on Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that -you found on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was -struck by one missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation -that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way -which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as -"Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?" - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this -diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet -then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to -dorsal? - -Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is -one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify -about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and -the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that -would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be. - -Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked -on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be -inconsistent with your view of the situation? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes--he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger -than the wound on the front here, doesn't he? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger. - -Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory. - -Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in -this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts -here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the -bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that -bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second -bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might -have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or -a second bullet which struck the wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. That is true--as far as the wounds are concerned, this -theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of -the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one -bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir? - -Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of -the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a -period of--well if there were 5-1/2 seconds between the three shots, -there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time -to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is -hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on -the first occasion? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was -struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, -depending entirely on how fast she reacted. - -Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not -struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the -hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in -the wrist at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and -struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the -bottom of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives -of the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case? - -Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a -member of the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret -Service man? - -Dr. SHAW. Once. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him? - -Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this -transcript. - -Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with -the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a -discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I -would ask you? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time -the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this -afternoon? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on -Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in -Commission Exhibit No. 392? - -Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to -the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record -room of Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which -you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that -are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would -actually be hearsay. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing. - -Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome. - -Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. -Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest? - -Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was -found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the -suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray -of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the -wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was -there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it -struck him? - -Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, -but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long -enough so that there might have been some tumbling. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back? - -Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there -might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical -puncture wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might -not have? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned -this or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have -been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed -through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the -surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling. - -Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, -it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the -appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not -struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. - -Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the -bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a -tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some -tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps -the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle -of entry. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor. - -Dr. SHAW. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY - -The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., -on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that -I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in -response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. - -May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is -to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the -wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, -and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying -concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that -we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the -purpose of our calling on you. - -Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. GREGORY. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? - -Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background, please? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana -University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed -5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana -University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an -interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I -assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic -surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the -Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board? - -Dr. GREGORY. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic -Surgery; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified? - -Dr. GREGORY. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of -Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the -treatment of gunshot wounds? - -Dr. GREGORY. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began -with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus -occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the -U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our -service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my -experience is continuing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds -you have had experience with? - -Dr. GREGORY. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in -approximately 500 such missile wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have -occasion to treat Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your -call to treat the Governor? - -Dr. GREGORY. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the -medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there -when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then -know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency -room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired -as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would -require my assistance. - -I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from -the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the -confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of -Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, -I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room -area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and -was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw -advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his -wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked -that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the -Governor's chest wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you have that conversation -with Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have -been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Robert Shaw. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment -of Governor Connally in a general way? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that -the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was -his operation which took precedence over all others. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, was that operation completed before your operation -commenced? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we -even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive -care. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor -Connally begin? - -Dr. GREGORY. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock -p.m. on Friday, November 22. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how long did it last? - -Dr. GREGORY. The better part of an hour--I should judge--45 to 50 -minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation? - -Dr. GREGORY. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. -William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw -him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell -us? - -Dr. GREGORY. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been -taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed -in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the -very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his -general status at that time was quite satisfactory. - -Mr. SPECTER. What observations did you have with respect to his wound -in the chest? - -Dr. GREGORY. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and -draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to -observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it. - -Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, -the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on -the anterior surface. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor? - -Dr. GREGORY. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of -a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a -rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger -than this, perhaps an inch and a half across. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound -that you described as the wound of entry? - -Dr. GREGORY. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the -time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area -probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the wound of entry or exit? - -Dr. GREGORY. That's the wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the wound of entry? - -Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, -since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his -wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest -operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the -operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound -of the wrist, what did you then see? - -Dr. GREGORY. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, -which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay -about an inch and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a -little to the radial side of the wrist area. - -There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a -centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this -wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length -and did not gape. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that? - -Dr. GREGORY. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the volar is equivalent to what? - -Dr. GREGORY. The palm surface of the hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the -wound of entry and exit on the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the -debridement was carried out---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate -that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision -all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign -objects. - -In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been -carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the -fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through -the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect -which would indicate that it was a wound of exit? - -Dr. GREGORY. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the -missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through -the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft -tissues. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits -of fragments or portions of a bullet missile? - -Dr. GREGORY. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic -fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows -in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these -were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic -in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for -further disposition. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would judge that they were first--flat, rather thin, and -that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of -an inch. They were very small. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds -to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the -Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments -which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet -missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot -escape certain ballistic implications in this business. - -I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact -as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, -if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore -more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material -or is jacketed in some way. - -Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as -it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase -the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the -formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times -velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some -knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the -missile would be useful here too. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested -to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient -size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have -emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or -whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that -would be consistent with having virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet -emerge. - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by -X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, -I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total -missile mass without reducing its volume greatly. - -Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile -weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in -Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that -struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but -probably was distorted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments -which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor? - -Dr. GREGORY. No, not really, but it would have been very small--very -small. - -Mr. SPECTER. What treatment or action did you take with respect to -treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a -decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional -manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference -to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments -of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured -radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire -limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your operative procedure? - -Dr. GREGORY. That completed my operative procedure for that day for -Governor Connally--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor -at that time? - -Dr. GREGORY. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just -described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect -of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have -disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass -through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the -superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An -X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in -his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have -produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed -to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to -reveal any wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of -a missile? - -Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. -by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, -that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have -accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his -thigh or a wound of that character. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect -of his thigh. - -Dr. GREGORY. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in -diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the -thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my -part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in -the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever -he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage -but which was not resident in him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken -to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately -the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general--round. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. -missile? - -Dr. GREGORY. I will have to guess--I don't know what dimension--of a -6.5-mm.--yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that -could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory. I now show you two typewritten pages which -are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, -which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from -Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the -two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on -Governor Connally, where you are listed as the surgeon, and I ask -you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether -or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been -describing. - -Dr. GREGORY. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to -be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my -operation on Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts contained in this report the same as -those to which you have testified here today? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think they are--I hope so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you -have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this -report on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. GREGORY. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 -weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the -Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist -was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On -the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor -was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general -anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of -paris cast was applied at that time. - -The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, -and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. -I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about -1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up -examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state. - -I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in -the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another -examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again -the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were -considered to be satisfactory. - -Now, I've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you -wish-- - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you -are thinking that through. - -Dr. GREGORY. All right. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the -record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, Dr. Gregory. - -Dr. GREGORY. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to -Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, -found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a -new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again -came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory -healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of -treatment, was discontinued. - -At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he -wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate -may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery -of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand. - -I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will -have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time -anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That -will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet -unanticipated symptom. - -I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in -Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the -point of view of recovery from his chest wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are -a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show -these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number -assigned to reports. - -I am going to ask the Court Reporter to mark this particular copy as -Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1. - -(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, -whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. This one does not. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what respect? - -Dr. GREGORY. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist -on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal -surface of the forearm in my view--in my opinion--and the reverse holds -for the wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, -Doctor Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, -and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the -point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond -with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound? - -Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately -depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would -be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, -as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and -it may not be correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this -sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the -Governor's wounds? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with -their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry -in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I -recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, -and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted. - -Mr. SPECTER. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry -to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar -aspect? - -Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they -do; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond -with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of -entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it -actually existed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a -seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect -to what action is described on the seated man? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the -several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single -missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of -the wounds which are shown. - -Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted -on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that -the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very -simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, -and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, -without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor -in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into -this same trajectory. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional -opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which -you have described on Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. -One of these--is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the -various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being -at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of -the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least -destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where -the bullet apparently expended itself. - -Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, -and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was -literally shattered by the missile. - -We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency -to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered -was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred -in the radius--the forearm. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the -velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony -portions? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity -with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the -amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the -thorax to the last entrance in the thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot -by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and -the second one striking the back side of his wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these -reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--I'll qualify that--a high -velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into -the wound which it creates. - -I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. -Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic -material was found in the chest wound. - -An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was -carried into the wound of the wrist. - -I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile -striking the wrist would not have carried material into it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you -to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a -single high velocity bullet? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile -wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting -calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone -fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the -part. - -I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right -forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it -struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a -missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck -his wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile -had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet -per second? - -Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--2,000 feet per second. - -Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that -strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a -missile of any mass as well. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet -per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the -distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 -feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the -consequences would be on that wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle -wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer -range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of -155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a -similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. -Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional -intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this -effect--assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile -directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of -approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from -a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a -6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of -the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his -body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the -President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back -of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can -formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this -situation? - -Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about -it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply -of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this -sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that -is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through -President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been -distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. -Now, if you like, I will define that for you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you please? - -Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component -of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, -there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In -order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary -motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with -the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is -literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile -should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop -it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile -usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as -a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected -to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of -entry in Governor Connally's back. - -These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the -reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as -though it had never struck anything except him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's -back? - -Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to -operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he -carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him -about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would -not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was -the initial impact of that missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that -my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have -gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor -Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile -could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and -have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit -on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the -thigh which you described. - -Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to -be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter -prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly -identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave -to Mr. Warren on those occasions? - -Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in -much less detail. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and -me about these matters, from the Federal Government? - -Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the -assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was that about? - -Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had -been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might -use for ballistic analysis. - -I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was -properly identified. - -Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to -transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us -with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have -answered questions on all during the course of this deposition? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the -Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same -general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about -here today? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful in any way to the work of the Commission? - -Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had -with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his -subsequent recovery and none other. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming. - -Dr. GREGORY. Very well. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES - -The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March -23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this -session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, -that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant -to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission -on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts -relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor -Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared -here today in response to a letter of request from the President's -Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which -he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on -Governor Connally. - -Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's -Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. SHIRES. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record? - -Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? - -Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of -Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in -Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, -Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts -Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency--Parkland -Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the -United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval -Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, -Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship -_Haven_--do you want staff positions? - -Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well. - -Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University -of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant -Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of -Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires? - -Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it -was a premedical 3 years--it was 1944. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree? - -Dr. SHIRES. 1948. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified? - -Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for -President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. -I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical -Association. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and -services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you -were called into this case? - -Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to -Parkland Hospital, it was determined--well--all aid was given to the -President that was available, and it was determined that Governor -Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor -Connally was to the chest. - -Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery--I don't need to tell their -titles--you will have all that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes--correct. - -Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, -instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the -status of the President and also the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist -in the operative procedures on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas? - -Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative -procedures on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in -progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement -were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of -Governor Connally's chest wound? - -Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided -and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very -good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being -prepared for surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his -back? - -Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his -chest? - -Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time--later, but not at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the -wound on his back and on his chest? - -Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large -part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the -wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, -had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial -appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, -so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I -first saw them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from -giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of -exit? - -Dr. SHIRES. They would--really. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the -hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything? - -Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and -although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with -the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of -the wrist which looked like a missile wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of -entry or the point of exit? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 -cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower -third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity -came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. -bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration -of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little -soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound -of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it -appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound -or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had -subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that -time? - -Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray -and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue -damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this -small fragment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that -fragment? - -Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might -weigh in grains? - -Dr. SHIRES. In grains--a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a -grain--very small. - -Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole -which you described in the thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and -weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may -create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a -relatively slow velocity will create the same defect. - -Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ? - -Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, -irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel -alloy wire and removable sutures. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did -to Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start? - -Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. The operation that you were concerned with? - -Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have -started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end? - -Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it--about 20 minutes later. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the -operation? - -Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don -Patman. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified -heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of -Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor -Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, -dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you -whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative -procedures on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have -heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what -you did? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on -Governor Connally subsequent to November 22? - -Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount--postoperative care was of the -essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and -fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of -postoperative--I don't know how much of this you want--in other words, -he had clotting defects--I don't know whether you want to take this -down--I just want to ask you how much detail you would like? - -Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description--perhaps, I will -direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. - -First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963? - -Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every -2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 -hours at a stretch. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him? - -Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks--never less than -three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital? - -Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the -hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it -was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial -saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the -injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown -having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids -while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the -saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, -anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future? - -Dr. SHIRES. Do I? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he -really requires at the moment is the bone--the orthopedic followup, -which incidentally is also completely healed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have -marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. -Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention -first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor -Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the -exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of -the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with -your observations of Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, -would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond -with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with -the wounds on Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent? - -Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's -injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from -surgery, was the apparent position that he was in in the car, which -would explain one missile producing all three wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion? - -Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery--this was the 22d, late in the -afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the -Governor's position? - -Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had -turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see -what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, -that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. - -I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers -turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a -bullet. I forgot about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that? - -Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later. - -Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital? - -Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes--4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the -events. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the occasion for your conversation with him? - -Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was -reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, -since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively -in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis? - -Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn -blue. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after -he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the -second day post-operatively. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before -the wound? - -Dr. SHIRES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was -suffering from lack of oxygen? - -Dr. SHIRES. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. -He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen -could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected -his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not -last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from -the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he -recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he -said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and -how it went as closely as you can recount it now? - -Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, -Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she -related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating -to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he -couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and -admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the -whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers -hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot--he remembers turning to -the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought -as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," -and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until -he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of -that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several -hours later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"? - -Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say--he didn't comment on it at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard? - -Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did--no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound? - -Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if -I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a -firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did -too--thought it was a gun--I believe he did too. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing -President Kennedy say anything? - -Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President -Kennedy said anything? - -Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some -things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having -uttered a word. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally? - -Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect -that her husband had been shot and--well, that was really the essence -of it. It wasn't phrased that way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence--what did Governor Connally -say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number -two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he -turned--those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them? - -Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right -and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few -seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did he feel himself receive a shot? - -Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his -wrist? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about feeling anything in his thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his -recollections on the day of the assassination? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he -was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them--apparently he -remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the -assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion? - -Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did he say to you at any other time? - -Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that -happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he -was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was -after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing--he -was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the -cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, -of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his -recollection of the things on the day of the assassination? - -Dr. SHIRES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with -Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other -than that which you have already testified about? - -Dr. SHIRES. No--those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't -remember any others, except--well, no--most of the others were--we -were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for -recovery and that sort of thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your -professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor -Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by -the same bullet? - -Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably -one missile, one bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that? - -Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory--as we were reconstructing the -events in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as -best we could, this appeared to be our opinion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those -calculations? - -Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker? - -Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, -I'm sure they did--it was before I got there. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it -as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. -Everyone was under the impression this was one missile--through and -through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three -teams who had a different point of view? - -Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could -have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging -from his chest and the second going into his wrist? - -Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so -variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which -it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of -combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to -state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of -the missile was, so I am sure it is possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being -a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and -the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 -to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President -Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, -and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his -chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that -would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so -distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was -hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure -5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right -and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is -purely conjecture, of course. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that -is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy -and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude -that it was not the same bullet? - -Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been--purely from the -standpoint of the wounds, it is possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally -necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, -entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in -order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to -postulate turning by the Governor? - -Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory--I suppose not. -I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet -was fired. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 -degrees? - -Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as -his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the -chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was -right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back -of the wrist, or how? - -Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in -order to have the same bullet make all three wounds? - -Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, -in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to -have his right arm raised up, next to his chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it -not? - -Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here. - -Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side? - -Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely -he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, -whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been -sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. -It's just a question of which side is up. - -Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be -down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting -position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in -towards his chest area? - -Dr. SHIRES. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done -to the rib? - -Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were -in the chest, bullet fragments, if any? - -Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a -small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw -saw before I arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any -knowledge of that? - -Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during -the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that -procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to -whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile -that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, -assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 -feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the -end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole -in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the -underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had -to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then -it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did -and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small -fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin -in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit -Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and -do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that -I have just described for you? - -Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that? - -Dr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high -velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet? - -Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very -strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or -a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just -depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. -That's why it's awfully hard to predict. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking -of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile -whose velocity was spent after going through President Kennedy and -through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the -thigh? - -Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any -representative of the Federal Government prior to today? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you? - -Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the -Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the -administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies -of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the -President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those -same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and -exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at -previously in these five diagrams. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative -of the Federal Government before today? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the -FBI--well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone -what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with -regard to the President or the Governor--no. - -Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did -they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or -were other subjects covered? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the -Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions? - -Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the -court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did -you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition -and the subject matters of interest to the Commission? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during -the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the -record here this afternoon? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which -you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work? - -Dr. SHIRES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very -much, Dr. Shires. - -Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald--that's my only other question? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the -record at this point.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding -the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions -about care for Lee Harvey Oswald. - -First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last -two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial -Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with -you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two -sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared -on treatment of Mr. Oswald? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition -was when you first saw him? - -Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was -unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart -beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. -There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet -could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting -this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition, -it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every -major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to -be the case. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him? - -Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, -intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, -draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in -the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major -vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there -had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and -around the abdomen. - -After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the -bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, -16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and -he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss -incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though -we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made -at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but -never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial -impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac -death and not cardiac arrest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in -lay terms? - -Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature -recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too -fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it -might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes -from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected -it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, -finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal -wound--there was no question about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and -treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which -I have just shown you in Commission No. 392? - -Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires. - -Dr. SHIRES. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY - -The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in -response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and -he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified -in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see -President Kennedy. - -Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order -creating the President's Commission? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of -testimony? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, -even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right -to, if you want it? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. DULANY. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Dr. DULANY. M.D.--Medical Doctor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of -Texas? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please, -starting with college--graduation from college? - -Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of -Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was -in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the -service in November, and started a residency here in surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and -then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the -room where President Kennedy was being cared for. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's -treatment? - -Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the -President was being treated? - -Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in -the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so -I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 -minutes or so afterwards. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it? - -Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President -when you entered? - -Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he -had a large head wound--that was the first thing I noticed. - -There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was -later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other -doctors were putting chest tubes in. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time? - -Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark -and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of -course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, -Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were -in there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there? - -Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there? - -Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be -helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter? - -Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you -probably already know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President? - -Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed? - -Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the -President's neck? - -Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any -statement along that line. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at -all? - -Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was -told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the -best I can tell you. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing -here today. - -Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE - -The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on -March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right -hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these -deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, you may be seated. - -Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, -and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in -connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally -in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland -Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that. - -Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting -that you appear? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town -and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, -but I haven't seen it yet. - -Mr. SPECTER. You haven't seen it yet? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the -letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the -White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is -a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me -to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' -notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your -deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are -agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and -take it now. - -Miss STANDRIDGE (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can -just go ahead if you want to--it's all right with me. - -Mr. SPECTER. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today -or next week? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it does not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Ruth Jeanette Standridge. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Head nurse of the emergency rooms. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery -area in Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you receive notification that the President of the -United States was en route to Parkland Hospital? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you receive that notification? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. About 12:30, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of -getting that notice? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma -room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was trauma room 1 set up? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same -time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was it arrived? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I was busy with the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do when the Governor arrived? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the -orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the -syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, what do you mean by "IV"? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Intravenous fluids. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor -Connally's clothes? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the -Governor's shirt? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the front of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Not that I can say for sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. There could have been or could not have been, but you just -don't know? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood -that we noticed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything on the coat? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the coat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing his suit coat? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in -the coat? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't see one. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw -him? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. He was laying on his back on the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of cart was he lying on? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. The emergency cart on rollers. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is that emergency cart constructed of? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on -the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to -X-ray and to surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Of metal with four big tires on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. With four roller tires on it? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on top of the Governor? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he completely undressed? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being -undressed? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly -that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the -money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there -was a couple of other doctors--I don't remember who they were, but they -were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in -before they got the Governor's clothes off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Not unusual. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet, specifically? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear the sound of anything fall? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes, there were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the -emergency room? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I -think everything was taken off. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with Governor Connally following the -completion of his being undressed? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. He was immediately carried to the elevator--emergency -elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room -on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that also describable as a stretcher? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say "Yes"? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing -him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up -again--I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 -and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was -closing with him on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into -the elevator? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I -started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put -him into the elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and -down the hall--is it a little ways? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; you go through that section to get to this -elevator from the major surgery section. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far did you help push him from the major surgery -section? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. About from the door that went into OBGN. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another -20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, -which is about 6 or 8 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to -get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the -stretcher? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I could just see--I could see the -stretcher--yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the -door was closed in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No, not--I think his feet were at the end--I could -just see feet--I believe the feet were there at that door, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who -were pushing him when you last saw him? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure that was Governor Connally? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No, that's what I said--I just saw his feet, which I -assumed it was--it was the same doctors. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing -the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his -feet? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. You went back and got his clothes? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with those clothes? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I asked the administrator who should I give them to, -and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they -were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were -two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see--I wanted -to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door -and they asked for somebody, and he said he was--he identified himself -as Cliff Carter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you give him the clothing? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what he did with it? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard what he did with it? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in -Representative Gonzales' office in a closet. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is he a Texas Representative? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. In his office closet where? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. In Washington, D.C. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating -room area? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots -are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the -hallway into the nurses' station. - -Mr. SPECTER. You can go around in part of the operating room area? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Isn't into the premises--it's just in the hallway into -the nurses' station. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond -that into the operating room area? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots -are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will -be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at -anytime while he was in the emergency room? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't -taken off at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go -only to the operating room? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to -delivery--up to the delivery room on third floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is on first floor? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No patients--only classrooms and administrative -offices--business offices. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is on third floor? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. The delivery room--it opens up into the delivery room -and then the post mortem wards. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think -might be helpful to us in any way? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have -already stated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; I was in the room--I took the mop in. The -orderlies mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of -the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came -back in. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him there? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how was he clothed at that time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, as far as from his waist up--was all that was -uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet--it was -wrapped around his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. What clothing did he have on from the waist down? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. It was just a sheet cover--I don't know of anything -under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all -unclothed, which we do routinely. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was all unclothed? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I said I assumed he was--I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did he have from the waist up? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Nothing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was he on at that time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. A stretcher cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the -President's stretcher? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take -the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the -investigation by the Warren Commission? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking -questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about -before the court reporter came in? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the -Federal Government? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. The Secret Service--yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk with them once or more than once? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's -office and another time just briefly--he came to see the layout of the -emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whose office--Mr. Wright? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Personnel manager here. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those -occasions? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part -of the hospital on another day, you say? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. I think he came back up into the emergency room at -that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you identified some of the things? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the -Federal Government? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any representative of the State government? - -Miss STANDRIDGE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. Those are all--those are the only -questions I have. - -Miss STANDRIDGE. Thank you for that. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER - -The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, -at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and -she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right -hand and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this -proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Miss WESTER. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this -proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the -assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy -and Governor Connally following their being shot. - -The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to -testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning -treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition -of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at -the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland -Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please? - -Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester? - -Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy -advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking -testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester? - -Miss WESTER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the -Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations -relating to the taking of testimony? - -Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some -questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor -Connally? - -Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy? - -Miss WESTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please? - -Miss WESTER. I am a registered nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed? - -Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland -Memorial Hospital? - -Miss WESTER. Nine years--or 9 1/2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were -back on November 22, 1963? - -Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I -assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy -and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to -receive treatment? - -Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all? - -Miss WESTER. At noon, around noon--noontime--I'm not sure as to the -exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the -phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President -were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said -that a Secret Service agent was down there and as soon as the -President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the -treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland? - -Miss WESTER. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us -to set up for a craniotomy. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language? - -Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time? - -Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I -received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of -the chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the -requests you received? - -Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two -rooms for these two cases. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy? - -Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy? - -Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5. - -Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms? - -Miss WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter? - -Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep -traffic out of the operating room and keep people back--keep the halls -clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating -room with several doctors--arrived by stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first -floor, or by what means of locomotion? - -Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the -operating room--it comes directly from emergency room and which--there -were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the -elevator on the second floor of the operating room area? - -Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the -hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door? - -Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the -stretcher, following the point where you met them? - -Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we -transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating -table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and -placed them in the hallway by the operating table. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when -you first saw him on the stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on -him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time? - -Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the -bottom of the cart in a paper sack. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an -operating table? - -Miss WESTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the -operating room? - -Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we -transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into -the operating room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you -transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table? - -Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating -table? - -Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and -at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to -sleep. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at -that time. - -Miss WESTER. Dr.--there were many--Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e -(spelling)--there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and -there were many others--right offhand, I can't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time? - -Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to -that point? - -Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of -the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a -small bundle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet? - -Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside -the other up into a small bundle. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the -number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances? - -Miss WESTER. The cart--the mattress on the cart is covered with one -sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in -the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey -cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up -and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of -hypodermic needles--well, packed in and sterilized in. There were -several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those -things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher -cart? - -Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart? - -Miss WESTER. There could have been--I don't recall right off--I can't -remember that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of -the stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a -curved hemostat--I couldn't say for sure--I'm not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally -on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there -any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that -particular spot? - -Miss WESTER. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Miss WESTER. There is a clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating -room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken? - -Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor -Connally was taken off of it? - -Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly -close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an -orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---- - -Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.? - -Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and -removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and -proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was -standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day? - -Miss WESTER. Not that I know of. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher -looked like? - -Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin -mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It -has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper -shelf of the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of? - -Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal--steel. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress? - -Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the -sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were -rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in -connection with this particular movement of the stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection -with this particular movement of the stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling -the sheets up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection -with this particular movement of the stretcher? - -Miss WESTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these -events at some time in the past? - -Miss WESTER. Yes; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else? - -Miss WESTER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or -more than one occasion? - -Miss WESTER. Only one occasion. - -Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting -to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you -about the purpose of this proceeding? - -Miss WESTER. Yes; you did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this -formal deposition started? - -Miss WESTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously -testified to here to this effect? - -Miss WESTER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have -anything on it? - -Miss WESTER. It had some blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort -concerning the matters about which you have testified here today? - -Miss WESTER. No; I haven't. - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much -for appearing here. - -Miss WESTER. Fine. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS - -The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered -to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter -request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission -on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment -of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital. - -Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge -about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported -while in the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, -to state your full name? - -Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed? - -Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity? - -Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass -by I did not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that? - -Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was -supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone? - -Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I -don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr. -Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there? - -Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if -anything? - -Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the -operating table and put him on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on? - -Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting -with what was it made of? - -Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet -on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is -the length of the cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they -rolled Governor Connally off of it? - -Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed? - -Mrs. ROSS. Jimison. - -Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison? - -Mrs. ROSS. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher? - -Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time? - -Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this? - -Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? - -Mrs. ROSS. One time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government -about this matter? - -Mrs. ROSS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful to the Commission? - -Mrs. ROSS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing. - -Mrs. ROSS. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON - -The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, -1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your -right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this -Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. JIMISON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification -from the President's Commission advising you that you would be -contacted to have your deposition taken? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive -order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional -resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking -depositions by the Commission? - -Mr. JIMISON. I believe it did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; -do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having -them reported by the court reporter here? - -Mr. JIMISON. No; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison? - -Mr. JIMISON. I would just say the hospital--County Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of work do you do here? - -Mr. JIMISON. Orderly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, -"R. J. Jimison". - -Mr. JIMISON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. "Orderly." And is that your full name? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what does the "R" stand for? - -Mr. JIMISON. That's just an initial name. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about the "J"? - -Mr. JIMISON. Same. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, people call you "R. J."? - -Mr. JIMISON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. -Jimison? - -Mr. JIMISON. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport -patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day? - -Mr. JIMISON. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day? - -Mr. JIMISON. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor -Connally? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, -but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was--I -assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was he when you first saw him? - -Mr. JIMISON. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, -near room 4, where his operation was performed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5? - -Mr. JIMISON. He was taken in room--I thought it was room 4, but maybe -it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I -told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put -them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of -the elevator? - -Mr. JIMISON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What floor were you on when you first saw him? - -Mr. JIMISON. I was on two. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him? - -Mr. JIMISON. I guess he must have been about 20 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where -you were? - -Mr. JIMISON. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the -clock that is overhead in the center there? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were there doctors around him at that time? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to---- - -Mr. JIMISON. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I -helped them take him off. - -Mr. SPECTER. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the -operating table? - -Mr. JIMISON. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the -table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to -get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got -free--whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there--they pushed it -back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with -it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it -on and pushed the door closed. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was on the stretcher at that time? - -Mr. JIMISON. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two -sheets as usual. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the position of the sheets? - -Mr. JIMISON. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out -on the bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had they been rolled up? - -Mr. JIMISON. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the -mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it -would be just throwed about halfway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the sheets flat or just turned over? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, just turned over. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they crumpled up in any way? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly--a tragic -day. - -Mr. SPECTER. It was what? - -Mr. JIMISON. It was a tragic day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of -it? - -Mr. JIMISON. We didn't look too close. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else on the stretcher? - -Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed anything else at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic -needles or an alcohol sponge? - -Mr. JIMISON. There could have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or a 1-inch roll of tape? - -Mr. JIMISON. There could have been something--small stuff, but nothing -large like bundles or anything like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said? - -Mr. JIMISON. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the -emergency area? - -Mr. JIMISON. Not close in the emergency area--that's the only one. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator? - -Mr. JIMISON. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up -there and remade and put in use again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself? - -Mr. JIMISON. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact -is--the purpose is--we have enough to do up there, and we have men up -there to take care of that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? -Is that right? - -Mr. JIMISON. One of them--we put it on the elevator, then it becomes -the responsibility of the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator -later that day? - -Mr. JIMISON. Not during my shift. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the -elevator if there were one? - -Mr. JIMISON. No, I is not, but might near--I could might near see of -anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--I -could might near see all of the stretchers put on there. - -Mr. SPECTER. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in -your presence? - -Mr. JIMISON. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see -it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally -on the elevator? - -Mr. JIMISON. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know -exactly the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating -room, did you? - -Mr. JIMISON. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you get off that day? - -Mr. JIMISON. 3:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that -elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until -the end of the day? - -Mr. JIMISON. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the -emergency--from the emergency that we had from that time that he was -brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher? - -Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed any at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before -the court reporter came in to take this all down here today? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have I asked you questions and have you given me -answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition -started? - -Mr. JIMISON. (No response.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been -talking about since the court reporter came in? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the -Federal Government? - -Mr. JIMISON. Yes, I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was that? - -Mr. JIMISON. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that -happened--I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government. - -Mr. SPECTER. What branch was he from? - -Mr. JIMISON. I thought he was from the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret -Service? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what about? - -Mr. JIMISON. The same thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact? - -Mr. JIMISON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be -helpful to us? - -Mr. JIMISON. Well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well -covered--just, I actually want to give facts about something I know -something about, and during the time I know something about, and what -actually happened from the time I got off--I couldn't tell you, but I -do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked -up until I got off from duty. - -This ain't actually--not in it, but due to this--this is--what I'm -fixing to say is off of the book--I couldn't see after President -Kennedy because I didn't--I never did get up to the floor--so I didn't -see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming -in and helping us a lot. - -Mr. JIMISON. Same back to you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON - -The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, -at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court -reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the -oath, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these -proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, for the record? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding -is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by -the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination -of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, -which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination -of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland -Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or -anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either -one of those men. - -First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission -was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition -concerning this matter? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive -order creating the Commission? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the -creation of the President's Commission? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of -witnesses by members of the Commission's staff? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions -about what you observed or know about this matter? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather -than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was -yesterday? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial. - -Mr. SPECTER. It's immaterial to you? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial--it's at your convenience. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson. - -The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it -doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your -information today. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right -with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do -that; is that all right? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your capacity? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I am classed as the senior engineer. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what duties are involved in general? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, -which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the -building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to -the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the -second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. You mean just the general lay? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; please. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement -to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in -the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct -route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the -operating rooms on two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on -November 22, sometime around the noon hour? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you have to do with that elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, -the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the -elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a -mechanical difficulty of any sort? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it -isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and -they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground -floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, what were you to do with this elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that you would operate it in that way? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; make a manual operation out of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the -best of your recollection? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It was around 1 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you -will, please. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a -white covering on the pad. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but -I don't believe there was. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against -the south wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. The ground floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already -there. - -(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have -made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few -minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which -you pushed off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating). - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" -right in the center of that? - -(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher -which was already on the first floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different -designation for the first floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, -second, and third on that elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. -That's our surgical suites up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital -on? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of -the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the -ground floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator? - -Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present -at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) -I believe that's it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to -stretcher "B"? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, -but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's -room there in the elevator lobby. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" -stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a -general way? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"? - -(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.) - -Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use -the men's room? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get -in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the -stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where -we would have clear area in front of the elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled -out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B". - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I -didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east -end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end -and a sterile pack or so. - -Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what -they came from. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" -that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly -honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that -much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed -it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I -straightened out the stretcher up against the wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to -bring him down to the ground floor to get blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, -what do you mean by that? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had -some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you -rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the -wall at that time? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with -reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that -sort of thing? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on -the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the -four wheels. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed -steel. The majority of them have those. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I -placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take -down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we -not? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which -you have testified about, did we not? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your -recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was -it not? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. B. - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you -took off of the elevator. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started -our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take -it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which -came off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other -Federal representative? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who interviewed you about it? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one -was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Once. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Once. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about -the same thing we've gone over here. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more -detail here. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which -stretcher you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not -sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I -took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which -stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the -elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for -sure, I really don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret -Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure -whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the -elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, -whether it was A or B that I took off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the -situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service -man and when you talked to the FBI man? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about -the same thing as you have told me today? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, -you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the -elevator car? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when---- - -Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing -off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and -brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency -area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it -was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to -the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took -off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't -know how many people went through that--I don't know how many people -hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them -in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I -discovered the bullet on the end of it there. - -Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you -took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just -can't be sure? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively -sure--I think it was A, but I'm not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, -which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret -Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on -the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--I called that to your -attention, didn't I? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on -refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No; it really doesn't--it really doesn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first -started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher -you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that -the Secret Service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you -took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, -and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire -situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher -you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher -that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what -you told me before? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling -him definitely--I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could -have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know -where---- - -Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought -down from the second floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, -whether it was brought down from the second floor? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took -off. - -Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you -thought it was you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that--whether I absolutely made a -positive statement to that effect. - -Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the -elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you -took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A--I'm not really sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you -thought it was A that you took off of the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him -this or that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you -thought it was A or not? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to -being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they -are writing down everything, I mean. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are -saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best -recollection. - -We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like -November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every -other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, -and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so -does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going -to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found -on the elevator? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could -have come from three, it could have come from some other place. - -Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There -wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether -you sign this deposition at the end or not? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank -you very much. Those are all the questions I have. - -Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a -proposed exhibit.) - -Mr. SPECTER. On the record. - -Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am -having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and -will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one -which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and -B of the stretchers we have been discussing? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency. - -Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us? - -Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON - -The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March -24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following -a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. -During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, -it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of -value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the -General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken. - -Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts -relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, -and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your -knowledge of his presence here. - -Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the -Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of -testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today -without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes, I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the -President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss BOWRON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron? - -Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly? - -Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other -area? - -Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas? - -Miss BOWRON. Since August 4, 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment -here at Parkland Memorial Hospital? - -Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a -year's contract and to work in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background? - -Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, -and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in -England. I finished in February of last year. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time? - -Miss BOWRON. Twenty two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President -Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? - -Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your -being called in to assist in that case? - -Miss BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery -area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the -intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so -the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and -I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the -cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being -brought forward at that time? - -Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the -OB--GYN section. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was -some one helping? - -Miss BOWRON. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? - -Miss BOWRON. Joe--I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I -know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher? - -Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett -took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name? - -Miss BOWRON. Bill. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher? - -Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and -we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. -We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were -moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to -try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart -and then took him straight over to trauma room 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's -condition when you first saw him? - -Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. -Connally but apparently--I didn't notice very much--I was more -concerned with the person in the back of the car--the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect -to President Kennedy's condition? - -Miss BOWRON. He was moribund--he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee -and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the -other side of the car I saw the condition of his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what? - -Miss BOWRON. The back of his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition? - -Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad--you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see? - -Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large -hole? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any? - -Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away -and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to -the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room -and she ran beside us. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there? - -Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you? - -Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it -was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is -assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the -I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when -the President arrived in the trauma area? - -Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? - -Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any? - -Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether -it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his -clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was -more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the -chest tube trays and the venesectron trays. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1? - -Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the -second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came -back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that -he was dead, they said. - -And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all -of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them -to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until -the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"? - -Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped -us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and -everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the -floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. -And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests -left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with -him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the -coffin. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being -treated? - -Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and--who else was there--there were so many. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names? - -Miss BOWRON. I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you -have already mentioned? - -Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. -Nelson--the supervisor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there? - -Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir--I don't know the name of any. - -Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did -you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck? - -Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards. - -Mr. SPECTER. Until after what? - -Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up -and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to -really take much notice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed -the trach tube? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President -Kennedy's body from the stretcher? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir--I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the -stretcher? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was -removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma -room No. 1 on? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the -adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy? - -Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we -took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work -had been done on him--so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before -he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra -sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some -sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were -put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't -slip. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and -on floor area there? - -Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All of them? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then? - -Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. -2, which was empty. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was -wheeled into trauma room No. 2? - -Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was -left on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that -stretcher? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it? - -Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of -newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron -Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4. - -(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. -2, 3, and 4, for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those -are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this -assassination day? - -Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared -in the newspapers, but they are not all my story. - -Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in? - -Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer". - -Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that -published in? - -Miss BOWRON. London. - -Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where? - -Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail--The Daily Mail". - -Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city? - -Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper. - -Mr. SPECTER. In England? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4? - -Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in? - -Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you -and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland? - -Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one--I think it was an Australian -paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and -which was the same as I think--as this one. - -Mr. SPECTER. BX-4? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared -about your participation in this event? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which -this information was obtained, if you know? - -Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been -two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she -told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to -the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell -them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, -and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out -to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they -finished, and that was all that I told them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be -some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only -child and my mother worries, so I called home the next--that night and -told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably -be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it -but they weren't to say anything that--except that I had been on duty -and that was all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the -Federal Government prior to today? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom? - -Miss BOWRON. I don't really know--he was an FBI agent. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when was that? - -Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him? - -Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked -us. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him? - -Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"? - -Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the -Federal Government prior to today? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition -and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before -we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have -put on the record here today? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be -helpful in any way to the Commission? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left -arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid -it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and -put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was -being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out -to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and -found this Mr. Wright. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day? - -Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.--I was just a few -feet behind him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance -to the Commission? - -Miss BOWRON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron. - -Miss BOWRON. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot. - -Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE - -The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March -21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in -today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The -Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. -Doris Nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some -information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has -not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of -the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony. - -Permit me to make those documents available to you. - -(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.) - -Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, -General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of -this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been -authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all -right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as -opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice -which you are entitled to if you want it? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your -deposition taken today? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give -before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was -on his way to the hospital? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it, if at all? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first -arrived at the site of the emergency room? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what? - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came -there? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital -itself? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance--no. It was after he came -into the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into -the emergency room No. 1? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him -when he had just come into the emergency area? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was -there very shortly after--afterwards. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after -you did? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him -and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, -Dr. Carrico came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see--there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, -and you want all of them that were in the room? - -Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them. - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, -and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it -was. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when -you first saw him? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when -I saw him at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him--except his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole--I don't -remember seeing one that looked like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round--just a little round hole, -just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, -Miss Henchliffe? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down -there--I don't know how many a year. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency -room. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the -emergency room? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was -inserted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was -pronounced to be dead? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then -undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the -coffin was brought. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin. - -Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher--yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a -long---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal. - -Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber -covered mattress on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left -on the stretcher at that time? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty -syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up. - -Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up--where were they placed? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the -utility room. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure--there was probably about -two or three. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after -President Kennedy's body was removed? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there -was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been -placed under his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen -hamper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was he? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders--is that his name? - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy -was on rolled into the room across the hall? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was that? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the -sheets still all on, or were they off at that time? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on -was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful -to the Commission? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and -the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you -have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to -take this down in shorthand? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay. - -(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the -deposing room.) - -(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the -deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss -Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go. - -Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything -special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like -most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen. - -Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle -was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which -encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient -knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be -consistent with an exit wound? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to -someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you -have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit -anything but soft tissue going through. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis -for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound -other than that source of information you just described, plus your -general experience here at Parkland as a nurse? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 -years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what other experience have you had besides emergency -room experience? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance -of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just -talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came -out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen. - -Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like -an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add? - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. - -Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON - -The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at -Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and -will you raise your right hand and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mrs. NELSON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing -to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide -whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received -by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial -Hospital on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name? - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name? - -Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the -joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which -established the President's Commission? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of -the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members -of the Commission staff? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this -matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' -notice under the resolution? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? - -Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room -at Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied? - -Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, -1963? - -Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the -treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures -with the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date -concerning injuries to President Kennedy? - -Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes -prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the -President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the -President's arrival? - -Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room -No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head -nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the -emergency room. - -Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that -trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a -bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been -injured? - -Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured. - -Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured -party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter? - -Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone -calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got -a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor -Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him -as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma -room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than -one stretcher taken out? - -Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out -at the time because I was not out at that area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher -was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was -President Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were you able to identify President Kennedy? - -Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him. - -Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see? - -Mrs. NELSON. The--mainly his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face? - -Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not -completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy--do you want me to tell -about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. -Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the -question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will -appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record -purposes. - -Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the -roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the -President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was -brought into the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken? - -Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him -in a medical way? - -Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time -that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of -surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. -Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of -neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour-- - -Mr. SPECTER. Spell, please. - -Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of -Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names -at the present time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where -President Kennedy was taken? - -Mrs. NELSON. When what? - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, -caring for him at any time? - -Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly -to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather -than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told -by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the -emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be -placed on from the stretcher? - -Mrs. NELSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the -emergency room? - -Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring -a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a -stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the -patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency -room on. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the -time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher? - -Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President -Kennedy was on? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, -did you have occasion to observe that stretcher? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel -working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room -1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher? - -Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and -Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret -Henchliffe strip the stretcher? - -Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received -afterwards. - -Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report? - -Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the -emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken? - -Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to -trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the -two rooms with the Secret Service Police. - -Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the -time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all---- - -Mrs. NELSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all? - -Mrs. NELSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time? - -Mrs. NELSON. It was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on -the floor or what? - -Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller-type table. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did--do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, -if anything, at that time? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said -that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they -had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so -I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic -mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the -casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not -see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, -and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was -around the mattress. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you? - -Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to -absorb the blood from the President's body? - -Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around -him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled -up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss -Henchliffe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located? - -Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of -the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on? - -Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally? - -Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very -short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had -chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen -given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to -the operating room accompanied by several doctors. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma -room No. 2? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room? - -Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss -Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. -I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her? - -Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge? - -Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name? - -Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried? - -Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor -Connally was on? - -Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type -of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic -mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between--on the sides, -so that the--I don't know how to explain exactly. - -Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect? - -Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was -resting? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher -that President Kennedy was brought in on? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement -which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, -Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit -in connection with this deposition. - -(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave -to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your -activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the -best of your knowledge, information and belief? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started -this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed -here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us. - -Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome. - -Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. -Doris Nelson.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute. - -Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement -here, that it is your statement? - -Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.) - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any -formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition? - -Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE - -The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March -25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have -his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is -concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital -to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally. - -Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price -and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the -President's Commission---- - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of -witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken -without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the -taking of the deposition? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the -President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PRICE. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here? - -Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of -Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland -Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who -participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and -Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned -with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that -treatment? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical -records committee. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission -through Dr. Kemp Clark? - -Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, -some of the records were written in my office and since that time have -been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk -drawer. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as -"Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of -the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy -and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the -records which were made by the examining doctors? - -Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments -as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say -"Yes," or "No"? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that -those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day -informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, -which I will put on the deposition record here. - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, -permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. -2. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, -for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter -which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's -private physician? - -Mr. PRICE. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed -at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the -corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President -arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 -scratched out? - -Mr. PRICE. That's correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask -the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah -McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file? - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, -for identification.) - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 -an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a -report in your possession? - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, -for identification.) - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins? - -Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking -at here? - -Mr. PRICE. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. -Kemp Clark. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in -this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. -Perry. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which -appears in Exhibit 392? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit -392? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's -statement? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be -Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your -file? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report? - -Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked -Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original -in your file? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is next? - -Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the -original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file? - -Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.) - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records -concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file? - -Mr. PRICE. With one exception--there is in the file that I have of -Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of -patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of -patients? - -Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave -this to you--the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5. - -Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. -Kennedy, and how should that have been marked? - -Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2? - -Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5? - -Mr. PRICE. The President should have been noted as No. 5. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, -for identification.) - -Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not -affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the -arrival there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally -and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have -photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the -operation performed by Dr. Shaw. - -Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical -charts that I have here. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that -record? - -Mr. PRICE. Here it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report -prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your -record on Governor Connally? - -Mr. PRICE. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. -Charles Gregory? - -Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded -to you--Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some -pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated -or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like? - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to -read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line -of getting a Xerox copy. - -Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct -photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report? - -Mr. PRICE. It is; it is a correct copy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going -to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9. - -(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. -6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being -marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll -ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have -made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by -various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, -and November 24. - -Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group? - -Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by -the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first -numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is -what? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the -emergency area. This is correct. - -The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox -copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve -Landregan. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital? - -Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator. - -Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things? - -Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement -to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment -over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our -outpatient clinic. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert -Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently -our evening administrator. - -(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, -for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, -who is administrative aide. - -Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, -our director of nursing service. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana -Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 13? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie -Lennon. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is her position? - -Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14. - -Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is -an R.N. in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15 - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean -Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16? - -Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the -emergency area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean -Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18. - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is -assigned to the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is -an orderly in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20. - -Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who -is a registered nurse in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, -who is an aide in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22. - -Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in -registration--a nurse. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22? - -Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an -aide in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in -the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24? - -Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill -Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an -orderly in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who -is an orderly in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in -the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28? - -Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette -Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the -personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports -from the individual guards under his supervision. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is -assigned to the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the -emergency room supervisor. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32? - -Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is -assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional -services of the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33? - -Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events -that transpired on November 24. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34? - -Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday -and Sunday, the 23d and 24th. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports -to you? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of -individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in -the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were -requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities -would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of -the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is -a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was -altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology? - -Mr. SPECTER. Sure. - -Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it -appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to -signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make -clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries -who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to -be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when -what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed -at the time he read it and signed it. - -Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it -before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription. - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much -better than mine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price. - -Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, -Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate -custodian of the records. - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the -record had been altered here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right -on that. Thank you. - -Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH - -The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, -sir? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. COUCH. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please. - -Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas -to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent -you? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition -and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the -deposition--is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and -sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court -reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would -like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive -signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do. - -Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. Couch, where do you live? - -Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. And how old are you? - -Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five. - -Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through -high school? - -Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I -have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will -receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary. - -Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology -degree, to become a minister? - -Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or -not, but I will be ordained. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Any family at all? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday. - -Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume -your wife and baby are doing well? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college? - -Mr. COUCH. Social science. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch? - -Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school -part time---- - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and -part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957? - -Mr. COUCH. I went to college. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961? - -Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960. - -Mr. BELIN. January 1960? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school -here. - -Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with -WFAA-TV? - -Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I -worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and -H-e-r-n-d-o-n. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of -college other than those? - -Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the -camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September -1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there -2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with -this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in -Theology, you stopped working? - -Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from -college---- - -Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. - -Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course. - -Mr. BELIN. I see. - -Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you -whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to -whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of -President Kennedy to Dallas? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did -that day? - -Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the -airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride -with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a -reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity? - -Mr. COUCH. As a photographer. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both? - -Mr. COUCH. Moving only. - -Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade? - -Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward -downtown Dallas--is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to -Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle -Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar -Springs. I'm not sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when -you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets -you went on? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on -Main at the City Hall. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where? - -Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to -Houston? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember -offhand? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car -back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on -Main about how fast the motorcade was going? - -Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked -up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one -of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out -of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned -north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you -remember who was riding in the car with you? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob -Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. -Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I -don't know his name. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat? - -Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way -you were sitting in the back? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a -convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on -the seat. - -Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the -top of the back seat? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back. - -Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left? - -Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you -remember about how fast you were going? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the -turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were -clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the -other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving -fairly fast. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the -motorcade, that you remember? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles? - -Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going -down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. -As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. -As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; -sometimes they wouldn't. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you -described as a---- - -Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first -time we heard it--the first shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you -heard the first noise? - -Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of -Main onto Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn? - -Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn. - -Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further -on you heard the first shot--the first noise? - -Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I -was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't -know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard -the first shot. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say? - -Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; -uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, -but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess -from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And -then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a -gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front -of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings -at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. -Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly -close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one -could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel -that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard -the third shot? - -Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60 -feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a -motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made -your turn north onto Houston? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire -right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And -the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this -was another motorcycle backfiring. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there -anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that -you haven't related here at this time? - -Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first -shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember -turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual -for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And -after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, -yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" - -And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the -time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a -foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window. - -I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel. - -Mr. BELIN. In what building was that? - -Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know -how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that -time? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to -the top floor or the second to the top floor--or---- - -Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance -at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because -there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the -top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount. - -Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but---- - -Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it -was either the sixth or seventh floor? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"---- - -Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east. - -Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building? - -Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw -the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it -was a rifle? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on -the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, -you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw -an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything -of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and -what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic -sight on it? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the -window was open or halfway open or what? - -Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, -I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but -that was an impression. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you -remember--any boxes or anything like that? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you -definitely remember that you did not notice any? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the -building? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of -the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle -of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a -white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the -windows up above him. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the -building? - -Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the -moment. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone -else say anything in the car? - -Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or -anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn? - -Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our -car was facing the south side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his -exclamation and you saw what you just related? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my -hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and -made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you -can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start -the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As -I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas -Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see -about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete -the turn. - -And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, -or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository -Building itself? - -Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment. - -After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang -on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think -there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at -the very bottom of Elm Street---- - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, -one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down -underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who -wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out. - -And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to -the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the -crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building -entrance? - -Mr. COUCH. No--uh---- - -Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there? - -Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment -whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a -sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with -determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone -were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that -time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away? - -Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were -blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify -someone. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you -came back to take these pictures? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to -get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds -getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a -minute and a half. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the -area? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side -there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots -directed at the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and -shots such as this. - -Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been -pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these -pictures? - -Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing -south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at -the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park -area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository -property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that -little sidewalk. - -Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south? - -Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't -know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I -think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, -now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car -that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school -age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started -off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from -about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground -level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving. - -Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository -Building is concerned? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a -roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a -2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall. - -Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't -take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself -when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground -of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and -I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his -pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason -I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I -had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was -that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling] -L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said, -"You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm -going to go back--I'm going to follow the President." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs -between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book -Depository property and the beginning of the parkway. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood -on the sidewalk. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. -Couch? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was that? - -Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads -up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book -Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west -and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book -Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes; right. - -Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter. - -Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or -not? - -Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching -it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it. - -Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and -ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression -was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around -that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen -had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those -shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was -a chase going on in that direction. - -Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, -and my first concern was to get back with the President. - -Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north -of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway? - -Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the -expressway? - -Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 -feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood? - -Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for -something. We thought there would be something else, but---- - -Mr. BELIN. There was nothing? - -Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----? - -Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along -with the phonetic sound. - -Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book -Depository? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be -wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures. - -Mr. BELIN. He did not take any? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south -side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front -entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination? - -Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine. - -Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine? - -Mr. COUCH. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before -any of this? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard -hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear -of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did -anyone ever tell you that? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall; -but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD---- - -Mr. BELIN. TV? - -Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, -I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the -building, coming around the east side going south, I presume. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he -actually saw this, or is this just hearsay? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than -hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you -have not related here? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No. - -Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states -that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted -about this--is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right. - -Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you -heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related -here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember -whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI -you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would -you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as -sometimes happens? - -Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; -even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about -timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's -a long time. - -Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of -time between shots? - -Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but -it could be from 3 to 5. - -Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second -shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been -a difference? - -Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were -relatively the same. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this -deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few -minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining -to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the -testimony that you have just given? - -Mr. COUCH. No; no. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in -great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to -relate the story to me? - -Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we -began. - -Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the -deposition--is that correct? - -Mr. COUCH. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked -about--is that right? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time -which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination -of President Kennedy? - -Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to -come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you -to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down -here. We appreciate it very much. - -Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're -still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, -but I had better ask it again. - -When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you -see at first? - -Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it. - -Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time -you saw it being withdrawn? - -Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45 deg. angle westward--which would be pointing -down Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there? - -Mr. COUCH. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45 deg. angle" would that be up or down, or -are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and -south? - -Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45 deg. angle downward -pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction? - -Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the -building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more -southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, -I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was -sticking straight out the window, so to speak. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun? - -Mr. COUCH. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that -on the record. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD - -The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. State your name. - -Mr. DILLARD. Tom C. Dillard. - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please? - -Mr. DILLARD (Complying). - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DILLARD. I do. - -Mr. BALL. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You -have already been requested to be present have you not---- - -Mr. DILLARD. By letter; yes. - -Mr. BALL. By letter which you received last week? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. DILLARD. I am a photographer. - -Mr. BALL. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you -questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning -the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, -Tex. - -Mr. DILLARD. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief -photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but -my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I -do outside work for the paper on photographic work. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. DILLARD. I'm 49. - -Mr. BALL. What has been your general education? - -Mr. DILLARD. High school, very few college courses. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. DILLARD. High school and very few college courses. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. DILLARD. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the -old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the -Military and Air University. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the paper? - -Mr. DILLARD. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star -Telegram, went to work in 1929. - -Mr. BALL. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years? - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started -at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and -whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed -President Kennedy, weren't you? - -Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six -in the line. - -Mr. BALL. Did you meet the President at Love Field? - -Mr. DILLARD. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into -Dallas? - -Mr. DILLARD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in your car? - -Mr. DILLARD. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV -and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the -Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and -did you have information his name is Couch? - -Mr. BALL. That's right; and the man that drove---- - -Mr. DILLARD. Channel 5--Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of -the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet -convertible. - -Mr. BALL. Your car was about sixth, was it? - -Mr. DILLARD. I believe. - -Mr. BALL. From the President's car? - -Mr. DILLARD. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the -airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. -We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably -know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and -certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. -In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was -in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature. - -Mr. BALL. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the -President's car in sight at that time? - -Mr. DILLARD. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could -only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high -rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the -people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which -pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very -poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade -started. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made -the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston? - -Mr. DILLARD. It had. - -Mr. BALL. It had? - -Mr. DILLARD. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I -say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you sitting in the car? - -Mr. DILLARD. I was sitting in the right front. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in the front seat with you? - -Mr. DILLARD. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside -me--no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember -what our locations were. - -Mr. BALL. But you know you were in the right front? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on -Houston? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that -I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a -torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go -ahead---- - -Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story. - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, -estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my -comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very -distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire." - -Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear? - -Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced. - -Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with -reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first -explosion? - -Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it -seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down -so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn -when I heard the first explosion. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything? - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They -killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson--there was some -running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and -we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School -Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said, -"There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera -ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were -several open windows and I scanned the building. - -Mr. BALL. Which building? - -Mr. DILLARD. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my -camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the -third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and -then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and -I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with -one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a -two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm. -which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those -pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras. - -Mr. BALL. You shot how many pictures? - -Mr. DILLARD. Two pictures. - -Mr. BALL. With one camera or two different cameras? - -Mr. DILLARD. Two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily -photo, but twice the normal lens. - -Mr. BALL. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready? - -Mr. DILLARD. Hung around my neck and held in my hand. - -Mr. BALL. You brought them up and focused and shot? - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of -buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of -course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly--in a -very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, -so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is -covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to -get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and -so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual -thing in the parade that I noticed was the President--I understand the -President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the -near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that -said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of -the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to -get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable -to get up that far. - -Mr. BALL. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book -Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say? - -Mr. DILLARD. From the window or from the---- - -Mr. BALL. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement -along the street. - -Mr. DILLARD. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of -Elm and Houston Streets. - -Mr. BALL. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give -me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your -camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture? - -Mr. DILLARD. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything in the windows? - -Mr. DILLARD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see a rifle barrel? - -Mr. DILLARD. No. - -Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures or forms in the window? - -Mr. DILLARD. Only in the windows which was the windows below. - -Mr. BALL. How many forms did you see in the windows below? - -Mr. DILLARD. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. -I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were -covering. - -Mr. BALL. You saw them as you were taking the picture? - -Mr. DILLARD. I may have; I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures? - -Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate? - -Mr. DILLARD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Your car stopped where? - -Mr. DILLARD. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston -Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I -know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying -on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the -plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out -and I don't know what happened. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you go out? - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under -the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation -in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or -anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay around there? - -Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps 2 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. DILLARD. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by -with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we -started--I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons -Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew -and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I -never saw the Presidential car. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of -the explosions--what direction it was coming from? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming -from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a -great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of -high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns. - -Mr. BALL. You have had experience with rifles? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with -the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of -reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction -but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was -facing north toward the School Depository--I might add that I very -definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it. - -Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind. - -Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. I -mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you mention it to? - -Mr. DILLARD. Bob, I'm sure. - -Mr. BALL. Bob Jackson? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it. - -Mr. BALL. You developed your pictures, didn't you? - -Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you turn them over? - -Mr. DILLARD. I printed them. - -Mr. BALL. You printed them? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or -not. I may have. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back -from the hospital. - -Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two -pictures you had taken? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have---- - -Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was -more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle -fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three -shots. - -Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession? - -Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the -managing editor's office. - -Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can -identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do -this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those -negatives? - -Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Off-record discussion.) - -Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print -made from your negatives, is that satisfactory? - -Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized. - -Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy -to this deposition. - -Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other. - -Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a -wide lens? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens? - -Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same. - -Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two -pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell -me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that -day. - -Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on -November 22. - -Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each -negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, -is that correct? - -Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it -part of this deposition--just on the back? - -Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These -two are prints from one of my negatives. - -Mr. BALL. That will be all right. - -Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative. - -Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of? - -Mr. DILLARD. If you wish. - -Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement -to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of -November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise -which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said---- - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Off-record discussion.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, -you realized it was gunfire? - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that -upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped -almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. DILLARD. My car? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim -"I see a rifle; it's up in the open window". - -Mr. DILLARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository -located at Elm and Houston Streets? - -Mr. DILLARD. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle -protruding from any window? - -Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle. - -Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs? - -Mr. DILLARD. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives? - -Mr. DILLARD. That's true. - -Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave -the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of -3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I -was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building? - -Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this? - -Mr. DILLARD. Sure. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD - -The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on -April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn? - -(Complying.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood. - -Mr. BALL. Your occupation? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in -Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the -Presidential motorcade? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose -name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning -News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now---- - -Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas -Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from -WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it. - -Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the -department of public safety. - -Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of -which is news photographer. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you -go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for -your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about -yourself. - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in -the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that -I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began -working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I -got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 -and I became program director and news director of a radio station in -Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station -in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news -director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and -a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television -and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count -for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958 -when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter -I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I -still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and -I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including -photography which I enjoy doing. - -Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade -with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind -the Presidential car? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound -on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at -Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off -the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera -because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell -out there because of the many people I could not tell what position -we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where -we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. -The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and -I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward -the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade -immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting -to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, -I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind -him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street -downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination -took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke -and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two -men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming -the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera -for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that -would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly -it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on -the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I -tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and -I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that -rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a -crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came -to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on? - -Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you -made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston. - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in -was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block -or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short -block, when I heard the first shot. - -Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm -intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot -fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired -but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a -reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one -of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I -was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a -second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized -that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were -coming from overhead. - -Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be -from what source? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository -Building. - -Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a -loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something -had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in -stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School -Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car -stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in -the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the -window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with -their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, -to determine where the shots were coming from. - -Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did -hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at -that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not. - -Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of -Elm and Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make -the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same -time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass -and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground -had been shot. - -Mr. BALL. Did your car stop? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out -of the car. - -Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the -intersection, turned onto Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, -and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and -Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only -thought I had was to get a camera. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get one? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our -man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He -was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and -that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been -turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just -around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, -"Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I -assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When -I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running -up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas -School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only -thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in -that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running -also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and -took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and -they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time -breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I -am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who -they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of -the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the -building. - -Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could -recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was -there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you -need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to -shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving -of what happened. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in -the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas -School Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Which entrance? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance. - -Mr. BALL. On Elm? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some -pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the -building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a -three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last -name I remember as Eunice. - -Mr. BALL. Euins? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand -when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had -seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. -He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over -and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were -arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked -this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." -I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." -I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I -asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I -thought his name was Eunice. - -Mr. BALL. Was he about 15? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I -would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in -the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving -and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one -firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general -film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see -any face in it that would have been important to this. - -Mr. BALL. Leaving the building? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers -arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, -that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January -when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, -around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next -10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned -several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was -taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with -ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and -they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the -building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots -were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort -was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and -you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish. - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD - -The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson. - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, -by the way? - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand? - -Mr. CRAWFORD (complying). - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this -Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear. - -Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been -authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as -you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you -observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court -reporter? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk. - -Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did -you not, requesting you to give this testimony? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I did. - -Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not -receive it until Monday. - -Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas. - -Mr. BALL. What was your general education? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. -& M. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of -your occupations? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have -been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here -in Dallas until I went with the county. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years. - -Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where -were you? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the -corner of Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BALL. You went with whom? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell. - -Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me. - -Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk. - -(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.) - -Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building. - -Mr. BALL. What street? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim? - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's -Elm. - -Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of---- - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Elm and---- - -Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record. - -Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office -would be considered on Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want -the direction of the intersection? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse. - -Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast -corner of the intersection? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from -where you were standing? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection. - -Mr. BALL. Directly across? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure -of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I did. - -Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after -that? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car -leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and -followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the -Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were -open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner -that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a -backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have -been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the -President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot -followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and -followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's -car---- - -Mr. BALL. At that time? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service -car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third -shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if -there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff -of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile -and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east -corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was -open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a -glimpse. - -Mr. BALL. Which window? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window---- - -Mr. BALL. On the---- - -Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I -turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots -they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the -quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the -report. - -Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a -movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way -of color or size of what you saw moving? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a -profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement -and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either -light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was -found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, -simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it -was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet -or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe -it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were -stacked just like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the -window. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast -corner? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and -I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we -should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had -been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going -on the street--I thought our best information would come from that, -so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no -way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a -minute. - -Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something -light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like -a profile of a person? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw -it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a -person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown -haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that. - -Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not. - -Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on -the 10th of January? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any -impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound -came, the sound of the explosions? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought -it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill -toward the underpass. - -Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it -later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other -people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was -reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to -me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not -the sharp crack. - -Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was -being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers -or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such -a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, -where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole -area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm -Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the -time, rather than observing things in the street, probably. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those -were shots, they came from that window"? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely -sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I -was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this -quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the -shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them. - -Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly -behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the -far east corner. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could -walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly -under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had -not been anyone apprehended. - -Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up -to Allen Swett and talked to him? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 -minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you -said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted -Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen -in the sixth floor window? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell -him to search those windows, I think. - -Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you -told Allen Swett? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to -have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that -window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, -I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the -conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much. - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this? - -Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL - -The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold -up your right hand. - -(Complying.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before -this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk. - -Mr. BALL. For Dallas County? - -Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court? - -Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the -district courts. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born, -where were you raised, what schools did you go to? - -Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, -about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in -1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas -and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial -and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of -Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then. - -Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of -the District Court of Dallas County? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you? - -Miss MITCHELL. About noontime? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon. - -Mr. BALL. Working? - -Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records -Building. - -Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the -parade that morning? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade -since we are in the basement. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building? - -Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Whom were you with? - -Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the -building. - -Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets? - -Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I -was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner? - -Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's -probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions. - -Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way---- - -Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from -the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; -that would put you on the southeast corner. - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the -building. - -Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner -of the intersection, is that right? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard -after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you -hear? - -Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I -watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately -behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of -them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after -the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see -over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned -back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, -and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was -riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there -were three--the second and third being closer together than the first -and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a -firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police -officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third -report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as -I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from -that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the -people in the cars. - -Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were -shots--what were his words exactly? - -Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said, -"Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody -could have figured out by then that they were shots. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows? - -Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters -that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember -whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and -where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which -window he thought he was pointing to. - -Mr. BALL. Was he pointing? - -Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to -figure out exactly where he was. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything? - -Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because -I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start -pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking -at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling -around and then I went back in the office. - -Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again? - -Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again. - -Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply -to what Mr. Crawford said? - -Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did. - -Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his? - -Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when -he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't -remember if he said anything else. - -Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes -here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here. - -Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I -can what other people were. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said? - -Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, -my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right. - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of -here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers -could work better. - -Mr. BALL. That's when you left? - -Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the -office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get -back in very fast. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it -and sign it or do you want to waive signature? - -Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short -time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when -the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in -the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was -coming so we could go outside. - -Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will -write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you? - -Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND - -The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs. - -Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland. - -Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify -before the Commission in Washington, is that correct? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later. - -Mr. BELIN. In the fall? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation -Co., or corporation, I don't know which. - -Mr. BELIN. What does he do? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor. - -Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18. - -Mr. BELIN. When were you married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon. - -Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi. - -Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and -Arizona, and I don't know where else. - -Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. -I think he worked in a cafe. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one -or two semesters. - -Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school? - -Mrs. ROLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep -working, or does he plan to go back to school? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when. - -Mr. BELIN. To finish high school? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that -you know of? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon -State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that -you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your major? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. English. - -Mr. BELIN. If you had one? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish. - -Mr. BELIN. All three? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school. - -Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring -in? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and -D's, I think, in other subjects. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe -him. - -Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report -cards. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's. - -Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more -background information. After you were married, were you employed at -all or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season -this year, this past year. - -Mr. BELIN. Other than that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a -dry goods store. - -Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you -were married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,---- - -Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, -we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like -that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron -Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and---- - -Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. In September. - -Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he -work first at one place and then---- - -Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't -like it. - -Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant. - -Mr. BELIN. As what? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly -what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a -department store. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he do there? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook. - -Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he -got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job -as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., -and he worked there until a few days before we left. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza -Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone -solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, -and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a -telephone solicitor. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did -he work there, approximately? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about -two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about -4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't -very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I -guess. - -Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you -doing? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, -too. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to -school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job -was only part-time---- - -Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Both. - -Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit? - -Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we -officially dropped afterwards. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the -assassination, where were you? - -Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of -the records building between Elm and Main Streets. - -Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home. - -Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about -when to when? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that -morning when we got up, and we walked part way---- - -Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. -We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too -late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what -time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and -about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about -the man up in the window. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus? - -Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess. - -Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times -very well. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did -you do? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand -waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you -figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many -minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45. - -Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus -around 11:15 or so? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you -got it? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was -about, I guess, 20 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home -shortly before 11? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, -waiting for the motorcade? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the -motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the -park. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side. - -Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records -building. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an -elevator there, too. - -Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street -fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's -visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about -security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the -School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't -see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking -about at first. - -And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently -stepped back, because I didn't see him. - -Mr. BELIN. Which window was it? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window. - -Mr. BELIN. As you face the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the -western part of the south side? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. West. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows. - -Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband -say to you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man. - -Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he -was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the -motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told -you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was -what it was. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security -officer? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear -glasses? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people -hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man -was standing in the background. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, -because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was -holding the rifle at a port arms position. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was -tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then -he was thin. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he -had seen a hat, I think he would have said so. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by -that he saw this? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light -colored shirt or jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other -windows? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other -windows or leaning out? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment. - -Mr. BELIN. Later on? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the -windows. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any -women. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and -nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center. - -Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think -was the fourth floor? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people -watching, I am not sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the -fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth -floor? - -Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look -back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I -grabbed his hand and started running toward the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your -husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, -which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how -much longer did you look back up at the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. After that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the -motorcade came by? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of -time? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking -back for the purpose of seeing the man. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the -motorcade came until the time it came? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about -some men who were carrying cameras. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or -standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was -to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book -Depository Building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. What was he doing? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking. - -Mr. BELIN. Talking to you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the -building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the -street or at the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Or at anything? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically -remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything -about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the -man with the rifle? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened -afterward. I mean it was just---- - -Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was -passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, -and that is about all. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green -suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not -sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports -jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. -I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but -it is more of a raincoat. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he -doesn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened -prior to the time the motorcade came by? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the -motorcade went by? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or -maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, -because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as -her dress. - -And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that -is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and -waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't -recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it -might be a firecracker. - -And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more -shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than -the first and second, what did you mean? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first -and second. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came -from or the sound? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad -tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally -assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen -and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from. - -Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen -in the window? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might -have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything -about the man. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run -to? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman -wouldn't let anybody go further. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had -happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman -inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a -pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he -gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in -the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the -records building. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police -officer? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was -wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And -then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't -know who they were. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you -stay with your husband? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had -glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I -think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and -he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said -there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he -didn't say there were three shots. - -Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, -and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us -questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time. - -Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written -statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came -in, three other witnesses who come in. - -There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police -and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the -people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband -said? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. -Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color -the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, -I think. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else. - -Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept -any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he -saw this man with the gun? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean he---- - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in -the windows of the School Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other -people looking out the windows. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on -that same floor looking out the windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there -weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that -could be seen from the outside. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, -because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time -you saw the man with the rifle? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, -but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, -because I can't just stand and stare in one direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you -were glancing at other places? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember -whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the -motorcade? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor -were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking -out at an open window. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember? - -Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw -looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't. - -Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth -floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any -time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon -of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the -building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows -on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they -were never open. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of -any other windows on the sixth floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did -not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other -people on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how -many people he said he saw looking out of the windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking -out of some windows in the same building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband -said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book -Depository Building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a -newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead. - -From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in -to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in -a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he -saw because the man he saw was dark-haired. - -Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the -blond-haired man? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. -I am not certain. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book -Depository Building? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning? - -Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was -before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she -came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun -in a rifle case. - -Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown -carrying a gun in a rifle case? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they -said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe -they also said he was a blond man. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what -they said, and that is all I know. - -Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your -husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right -now? Anything else that your husband said? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we -went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home -and he went to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he working? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went -to work, and I caught a bus and went home. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The -bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, -until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do -you know, or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time -during that day by any law enforcement agency? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day. - -Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or -that Sunday? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you -contacted by some law enforcement agency? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally? - -Mr. BELIN. You personally. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four -times, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the -Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday. - -Mr. BELIN. The 24th? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not -positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following -Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my -mother's home, and I am not positive how many times. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was -contacted? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, -November 24th? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the -police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was -in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him -specific questions about it and he answered them. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on -that written statement? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him -telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you -remember him telling them anything? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in -the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it -was correct, to the best of his knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that -statement that should be? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any -other windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any -people in any other windows? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police -officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he -saw? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth -floor, in my presence, that I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. At times. - -Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was -with the police officers? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on -the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another -man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative -question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the -question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your -husband had with any law enforcement agency? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him -that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington. - -Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he -got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in -front of the Commission? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you -came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said -in front of the Commission? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how -many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I -mean all inclusive. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to -go to Washington? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that -week, do you know how many interviews he had? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on -the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in -the southwest corner window? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw -anyone else on the sixth floor? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being -questioned too much by any law enforcement agency? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave -was not taken down? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law -enforcement agencies? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas -Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in -there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Like what? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he -said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me. - -Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he -have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret -Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part -of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that -you knew different, because you had seen the report card. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average. - -Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but -some of his cards didn't have A's altogether. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and -some D's? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than -others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony -of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just -from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything -that your husband says? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any -wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but---- - -Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that -answer it? - -Mr. BELIN. I think it does. - -Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything -other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say -that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than -he is, something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to -embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth -floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can -to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been -asking these questions. - -You and I have never met before? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember. - -Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we -started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your -deposition, did we? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your -husband? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained -about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are -concerned? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police -officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, -and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was, -if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't -complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about -anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in -any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever -see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. -Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I -don't know if my husband ever saw it or not. - -But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination -that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't -think he has. If he has, he never told me. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You -have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland. - -One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read -what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign -it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it -and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington. - -Do you care to come down to read it? - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would. - -Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read -it and make any corrections, if you like. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it -rewritten in better English? - -Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, -Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By -corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might -not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will -have to look down their noses at us. - -Thank you. - -Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER - -The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise -your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FISCHER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name? - -Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer. - -Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer? - -Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor. - -Mr. BELIN. For whom? - -Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor. - -Mr. BELIN. And where do you work? - -Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building. - -Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building? - -Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas? - -Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, -Elm, and Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer? - -Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Children? - -Mr. FISCHER. Two. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to? - -Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you -graduated from high school? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is that? - -Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at -Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually -attended the school? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school? - -Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night -school. - -Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington? - -Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been -working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a -correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but -you are taking the correspondence course also? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's -office? - -Mr. FISCHER. Five years. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, -1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, -the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not? - -Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a -college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I -believe. I don't know the name of the college. - -Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h? - -Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of -employment on that day to watch the motorcade? - -Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a -quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go -ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in -other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on -down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the -parade was over. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until -about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5 -or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside -the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to -find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston -and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade -came by. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and -Elm--approximately? - -Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20. - -Mr. BELIN. 12:20? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest -corner of Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in -front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the -sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we -were standing right on the curb there. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the -actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not? - -Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the -shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see -it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. -We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have -just looked down the street and seen it. - -Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which -would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make -the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct? - -Mr. FISCHER. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on -that curb? - -Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of -the parade came around the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that? - -Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen -any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before -the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look -at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He -looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something. - -And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 -seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of -Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the -corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started -watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, -because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't -watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He -looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple -underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all -the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never -moved anything. Just was there transfixed. - -Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man? - -Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in -the fifth or sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this -you saw him in? - -Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in? - -Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the -front of the building, it would have been to your right. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, -south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this -have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building? - -Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was -it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, -or the west part of the south side? - -Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would -it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the -third, or the fourth--or what? - -Mr. FISCHER. First window. - -Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe -his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see? - -Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the -top of his head. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he -was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a -little forward. - -And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been -a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, -I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a -short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color. - -Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light -complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair? - -Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; -possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it -was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding -hair-line--or couldn't you tell? - -Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, -because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see -of his head. His hair must have been short and not long. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a -profile of it, or what was it? - -Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I -believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what -direction he was looking at? - -Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple -underpass. - -Mr. BELIN. Down what street? - -Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Down Elm? - -Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands? - -Mr. FISCHER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window? - -Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from -the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It -looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him -because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the -window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like -there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and -the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there -that you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't -remember seeing any others. - -Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or -that you just do not remember seeing any? - -Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto -Houston from Main--is that correct? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window? - -Mr. FISCHER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window? - -Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the -motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be -going? - -Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was -in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he -was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what happened? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn -and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up -onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all -the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I -started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other -cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. -And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or -anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot -rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody -started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot. - -At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, -there must have been just three. - -Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a -firecracker, too? - -Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like -the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles -fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the -sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much -like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a -firecracker. And I knew it was a shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before? - -Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a -firecracker or what? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting -at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone -would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was -shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a -real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from? - -Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School -Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there -were some railroad cars back in there. - -Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I -couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and -up the hill. - -Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart? - -Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. -And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the -second and the third? - -Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were -evenly spaced. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the -shots? - -Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running -down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there -were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When -the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, -some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and -then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and -then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to -the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where -the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were -a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was -on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the -triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and -two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man -said at that time that the President had been shot. - -And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up -to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, -thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed -to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars -and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these -passenger--freight cars were. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then? - -Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we -work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And -that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think -he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. -After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there -for a little while and---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the -records building do you feel? - -Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot -was fired. Something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the -front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way -we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the -south side of Elm, and then crossed. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming -out of the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; -but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records -building--and then what did you do? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our -office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then -I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a -radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet -that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was -trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen. - -And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or -10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a -radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still -nobody knew anything. - -Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till -1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the -window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book -Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives -in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the -shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the -shooting--or something was wrong with the building. - -So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the -only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with -the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do -with it. - -About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me -if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff -Decker wanted to see me in his office right now. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now? - -Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office? - -Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in -there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at -least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both -been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of -the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get -me--because he had told them. - -There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people. -They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I -noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two -boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit -the ground when the shots started. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to -be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell? - -Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the -floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that -back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like -he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but -I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box -maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a -straight-up position? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell? - -Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell, -but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the -window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been -hard for me to see him at all. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at -the sheriff's office--is that it? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an -individual and ask you to try and identify him? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee -Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say? - -Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man? - -Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that -I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I -was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that -I gave--but I can't say for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the -picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked -like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know -whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School -Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have -seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would -have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his -complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the -window or not--or don't you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back -in the shadow of the window. - -Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the -same day or on the next day? - -Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't -remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I -don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different -between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the -window? - -Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the -color of the hair was of the man in the picture? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it -was definitely brown. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?" - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are -a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. -It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I -can't think of anything to compare it to. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to -have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair -did he have? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't -have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been -a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown -and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade -of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture -but---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at -least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like -it's your signature? - -Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition -Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be -dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in -that statement that does not appear to be accurate. - -(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is -identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now? - -Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me -when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement -that doesn't appear to be accurate. - -Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be -in his twenties--is that what you told them? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told -me here today that you could see his chest? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his -shoulders. - -Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter -in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about -12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people -there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like -I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his -head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his -head. - -Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he -had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed? - -Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. -He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean -black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I -said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that, -but--uh. - -Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"? - -Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like -I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark. - -Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean? - -Mr. FISCHER. Black. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your -recollection, what color hair did he have? - -Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one -way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too -hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, -just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it -wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that -as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or -whatever you call it--I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you -remember how far the window was open? - -Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all -the way open. - -Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way -open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case -that is open. Is that correct? - -Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening -covered by glass. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area? - -Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window -that raised from the bottom up. - -Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or -fully open? - -Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see -the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his -shoulders. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a -tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at -about the time you saw the man? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building? - -Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have -been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember -very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in -the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a -mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed -by the FBI. Do you remember that? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building. - -Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or -not? - -Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems -like he did. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of -the pictures? - -Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they -did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it -could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, -or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture? - -Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him -because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look -like to me. - -Mr. BELIN. What about his build? - -Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat; -whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a -low forehead--or do you remember? - -Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I -don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you -whether he had a large forehead or not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that -window when you saw him? - -Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in -the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred -feet. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have -told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the -motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds -before you first saw the motorcade? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you -saw the motorcade? - -Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I -don't remember saying that but. - -Mr. BELIN. But what is the---- - -Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before. - -Mr. BELIN. Shortly? - -Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds -or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or -two before you saw the motorcade? - -Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less -than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I -turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that -bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that -you haven't related here? - -Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"? - -Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the -first time--is that correct? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before -we started taking your testimony on the record? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me -your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried -to, in any way, lead you--or so forth? - -Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events -happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or -anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we -started taking the deposition that has not been included in this -deposition--that you can think of? - -Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I believe that ends the deposition. - -I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We -appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate -your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for -letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please? - -Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS - -The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April -9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, -please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Your name, please? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College. - -Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior. - -Mr. BELIN. You are a senior. - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked -here in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College. - -Mr. BELIN. For a year? - -Mr. EDWARDS. One year. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla. - -Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient. - -Mr. BELIN. Main Street? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell -you. - -Mr. BELIN. Harwood? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Record? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street? - -Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that -correct? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer. - -Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For -a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then -we left. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go? - -Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would -be Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Houston? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the -little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, -facing the Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now. - -Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is -Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you -mean? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't -it? Houston comes this way? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. -Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here. - -I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on -this map? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow -pointing north, so Houston runs north and south. - -Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse? - -Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is -Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas -School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right -there? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of -the map? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to -the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the -parkway, is that right? - -You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, -and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going -in the parkway, is that correct? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's -see if I can show you a picture. - -Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. -You see it right here? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there. - -Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on -the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into -the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction -toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just -a guess. - -Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We -would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly -sure about it. - -What did you do when you got to this point? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas -School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be -looking at the south side of the building? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was -up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in -among boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the -building to your right or to your left? - -Mr. EDWARDS. To my right. - -Mr. BELIN. How near the corner? - -Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window. - -Mr. BELIN. The corner window there? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white -man or a Negro? - -Mr. EDWARDS. White man. - -Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck. - -Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees -up, or what? - -Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin -or what, if you could tell? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown. - -Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did -you look and see any? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on -the floor above? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth -floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Third floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly. - -Mr. BELIN. Second floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. First floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's -department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the -fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a -stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't -see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that -back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather -than the fifth floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I -didn't count the bottom floor. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you -didn't count the bottom floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out -the window? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor? - -Mr. EDWARDS. They did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, -average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about -this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was -hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a -joking manner. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few -things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at -him, both of us. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just -start looking somewhere else? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else. - -Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald -Fischer said? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said -four, then I thought I heard four. - -Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better -introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do -you think the shots came from? - -Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea. - -Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come -from the building there. Did you really say that or not? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of? - -Mr. EDWARDS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an -opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and -sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it -will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes -no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and -signing. - -Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then? - -Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL - -The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March -24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present -at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and -give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. - -May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is -investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we -have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if -anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand -you were on the scene or nearby at that time. - -May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under -date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask -you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the -President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. HILL. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state -your full name for the record? - -Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964? - -Mrs. HILL. I have it here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I -must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I -got it Saturday. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is -present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. -Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and -that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed -from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill? - -Mrs. HILL. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about -noontime? - -Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School -Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the -underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza? - -Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the---- - -Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded -forward? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. -Hill? - -Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been -walking up and down and back and forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that? - -Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture. - -Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade -passed by? - -Mrs. HILL. You mean---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just -tell me in your own way what happened. - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures -with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had -only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a -picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the -camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he -drew even with us. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean? - -Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I -jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take -your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and -Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car -looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the -roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because -there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I -know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I -yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me -and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on -the ground and of course there were more shots. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether? - -Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There -were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or -just a moment's pause, and then I heard more. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of -what you described as the first three shots? - -Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those -three shots? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the -first three shots? - -Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps -six, but I know there were more than three. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the -very last shot, will you estimate? - -Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on -the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just -immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third -shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, -they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, -so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the -shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and -then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots. - -Mrs. HILL. In what way? - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time -lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the -second to the third, or in that manner? - -Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I -mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again -or whatever you do with a gun. - -Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action? - -Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done -with the type gun that they say the assassinator used. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your -understanding? - -Mrs. HILL. A bolt action. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, -then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those? - -Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was -different. - -Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence? - -Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected? - -Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear -it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. -I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or -6. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard? - -Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than -that? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you -recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you? - -Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, -like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands -were like this (indicating). - -Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap? - -Mrs. HILL. No--not really. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands? - -Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was -like this [indicating]. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his -left? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the -first shot? - -Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise -his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a -bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally -at that exact second? - -Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't -know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was -riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess -my story is probably colored by what I have heard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that -colored your story? - -Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots -hit where and everything. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit -Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill? - -Mrs. HILL. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard? - -Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. -Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see -Mrs. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see -him and I knew that someone had been hit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he -between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was -he? - -Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy? - -Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that -there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in -the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the -jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, -two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward? - -Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, -familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the -people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the -Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on -the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time? - -Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall? - -Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with -the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill? - -Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit -because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit -later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally -appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard? - -Mrs. HILL. The second. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the -second shot? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit -someone in the front part of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot? - -Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted -his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to -my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair -standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that? - -Mrs. HILL. On the third shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third -shot? - -Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again. - -Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you -believe you heard? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took -the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and -I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because -I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents -shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot -back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, -they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you -heard the fourth shot? - -Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots -rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it -couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just -a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost -stunned. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you -think the President's car was? - -Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further -than a few feet--further down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the -fifth and perhaps the sixth shot? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events -were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth -shots which you have testified about? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on -the ground. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you? - -Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the -ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there -was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and -I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure -there was just a slight pause before things started moving again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started -moving again? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the -car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I -ran across the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the---- - -Mrs. HILL. Other side. - -Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away -or walking away or something--I would say he was running. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him? - -Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at -the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right -up on the slope at the top of the slope. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository -Building? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the west end? - -Mrs. HILL. More to the west end. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building -and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point -or farther east than the westernmost point? - -Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting -with Houston Street---- - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well. - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing -here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the -questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking -Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves -down in the manner that I am drawing and marking. - -Mrs. HILL. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large -building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter -"A" where you were at the time the President went by? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X". - -Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of -the street? - -Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, -but he was past the center of the street and we were---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A". - -Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us. - -Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.] - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the -President's car went by? - -Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a -little way, and I ran behind here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran. - -Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just -right--but I ran approximately right up through here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on -the other side of the street. - -Mrs. HILL. These steps. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the---- - -Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, -there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or -whatever you call it. - -Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side---- - -Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it? - -Mrs. HILL. The east of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School -Book Depository Building? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were -when you first saw that man? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where -he was? He was very close to you? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any -space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is -shown here. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going? - -Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks -to the west? - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything? - -Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him? - -Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other -people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what -I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I -even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even -connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is -part of my recollection, I am just stating it again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your -attention to him beside the fact that he was moving? - -Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it? - -Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's -hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front? - -Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning -and going to the west. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time? - -Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see -him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands. - -Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been -visible, wouldn't they? - -Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any -recollection of seeing his hands? - -Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have -been in the position where they could have been observed? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon -in either hand? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw -him? - -Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"? - -Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the -reason why I went across the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot. - -Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved? - -Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never -did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the -street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me -turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all -around. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at -him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, -and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there -and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I -was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some -red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is -embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink. - -Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you -heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service? - -Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is -shooting back." - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like? - -Mrs. HILL. He wasn't---- - -Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he? - -Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any -meaningful description of him? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why is that? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it -that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully -aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it -seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, -but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general -build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have -talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his -whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at -that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the -building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll? - -Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by -the knoll? - -Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general -impression the shots were coming from. - -Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right -in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest -of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was -getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I -went to catch him, for some reason. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of -the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious -recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I -had always thought that they came from the knoll. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second -shot came from? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came -from? - -Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just -people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one -person shooting. - -Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that? - -Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way -they were fired--the timing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second -group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the -fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by -someone else. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from? - -Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general -direction of that knoll. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing -them from that knoll? - -Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming -from the knoll? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service -was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first -group of shots? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of -those shots? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was -starting to run? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on -the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You -know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked -all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward -the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't -see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something -about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got -away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had -really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or -had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he -had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time -I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around -the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade -sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different -directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I -want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. -I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come -toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up -there where the tracks were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to -what point--where? About the point of "D" here? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man? - -Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had -gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get -away, and which way did he go." - -Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look -down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that -time everyone was screaming and moving around. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? -Point it out to me on the diagram. - -Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and -I saw it right about here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there. - -Mrs. HILL. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything -more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over -being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the -case? - -Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of -your identification of who that man was? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even -gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the -car. - -Mr. SPECTER. In which car? - -Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking -me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested -in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I -said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat -between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small -dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us -in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor -or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the -Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on -tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, -"Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a -dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew -they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my -husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the -record? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything -on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best -procedure to follow, that everything be written down. - -Mrs. HILL. Well. - -Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort. - -Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called -Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," -and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't -know it was going to be taken down. - -Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious -when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had -seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would -have to see a dog." - -Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband? - -Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of -people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this -man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't. - -Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight? - -Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any -bigger than Jack Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell? - -Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the -impression of a brown hat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age? - -Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro? - -Mrs. HILL. He was a white man. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I can't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about -this man and your reason for moving toward him? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at -point "D," which we have marked on the diagram? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from -different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging -them, trying to get back across the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next? - -Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he -had hold of her camera trying to take it with him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? - -Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. -She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even -gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things -and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had -been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had -been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows -her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat -the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we -could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get -out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be -in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long -and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when -I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her -camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, -and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his -hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't -go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until -then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or -anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in -front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until -I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I -wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think -the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because -I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept -telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, -and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building -at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I -guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we -were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that -everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but -we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would -let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting -things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters? - -Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man -from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker. - -Mr. SPECTER. From where? - -Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think -he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it -was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures -for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house -about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three -or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he -said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day." - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill? - -Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom -that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more -than any--now, I don't remember where I am here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the -county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about -John coming to see you in your home. - -Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave -an affidavit to the sheriff that day? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government -that day? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to? - -Mrs. HILL. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know? - -Mrs. HILL. Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret -Service in this case altogether? - -Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men -was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they -let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly -were giving a story to the Secret Service men. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them? - -Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything? - -Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the -sheriff's office. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign -anything? - -Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because -they just took us in a little room---- - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men? - -Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have -told me here today? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots -because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but -they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all -from us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion -after the events on November 22? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal -Government? - -Mrs. HILL. The FBI men. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? - -Mrs. HILL. Several. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember? - -Mrs. HILL. I don't recall--I was called two or three times at least -after that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who -said he was from the FBI? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until -I called back down to check to see. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them -back? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? - -Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? - -Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about when was that? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter--no; -before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and -they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last -Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th--or the 17th? - -Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they -had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these -things and, I read it and told them that I had said it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate? - -Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was -inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions -he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could -have made what he made out of my statements. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about--approximately 4 or 6 weeks ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place? - -Mrs. HILL. At New York. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at -the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone -conversation? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next -week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed -so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was -doing in this case. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone? - -Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception -that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, -and at the courthouse. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at -the courthouse? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of -questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were -in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I -mean, this was to us a police station. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to -those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things -you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about. - -Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so -many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really -don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in -telling me all the things you told Mark Lane. - -Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement? - -Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke--just relax. - -Mrs. HILL. I would except, I don't have one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can. - -Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can. - -Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. - -Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the -witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record -show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding. - -When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things -you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified -about. - -Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that--I do want to have you--because I -hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you -about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John -Coker was with. - -Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that? - -Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I -digressed and got on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the -assassination? - -Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days. - -Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion? - -Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take, -and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they -were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their -questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical -situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is -the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a -wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told -them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had--I -had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some -reasonable doubt that I--that Oswald did not do all the shooting and -that all these shots did not come from the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that? - -Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me. - -Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them -what I thought would have had to happen in that situation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would -lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best -recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the -assassin was, if you have any idea on that question? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came -from the knoll, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the -shots? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away. - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that -came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? -And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting? - -Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think -that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have -already told me about? - -Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your -reaction was at the time. - -Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was -more than one person shooting, as I said before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me -about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that -was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why -you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the -shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then I asked -you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll -exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought -that might be the case. - -Mrs. HILL. Could be. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings -other than those we have already talked about, which would make you -think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal -observations, recollections or impressions. - -Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television -interview which you consider important? - -Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused. - -Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, -and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have -heard here and there voiced by other people. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on -those various theories? - -Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come -to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is -going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We -want to be ready for it." - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on? - -Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV -either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview -which you now consider important? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, -and particularly since I have been questioned these other times. - -Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that -I have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings -that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and -frankly, I would either like to say it again or something---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again? - -Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning -again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my -mind---- - -Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or -confused by that? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say -about that television interview? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did -you tell him other than that which you have told me here today? - -Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the -pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and -that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing -across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of -it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting -tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and -so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say--$10,000 or -something like this for this picture. - -We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a -representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell -that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a -lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't -have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had -let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could -reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it -could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought -it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to -keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and -that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about -it, and Mary was getting scared---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way? - -Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the -original picture, but they had already--AP and UP had already picked it -up because Featherstone stole it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for? - -Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture? - -Mrs. HILL. This is it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead. - -Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and -Mary was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we -were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he -had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept -standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get out." We -kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "We'll -get it back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of -the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was -told--that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red -raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent -on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out, -"I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does -your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in there." -He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they -had been looking for us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? - -Mrs. HILL. This man. - -Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead. - -Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just -about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and -we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the -pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because -they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the -two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that -time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were -right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long, -and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was -held and I told him, "Yes." - -Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that? - -Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you were held? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I -told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was -just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting -the man intimidate us that had no authority. - -Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I -remember clearly that I gave him his name. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him? - -Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of -there and I talked with a man---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told -Mark Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service -man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They -keep saying three shots--three shots," and I said, "I know I heard -more. I heard from four to six shots anyway." - -He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more -shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three -shots is all that we are willing to say right now." - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you -that there were only three shots in any other way than that? - -Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say -three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say. - -Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way? - -Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane. - -Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way? - -Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except -Decker and the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said. - -Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me--I was asked did I know that a bullet -struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do -you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I -told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of -a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, -which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete? - -Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete? - -Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know -anything about that? - -Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of -the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, -other than that--I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you -stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had stay there." He said -something--he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him -I wasn't threatened, but--he said, "How do you know you were held?" -Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. -At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go -down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me, -and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit -the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were -Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There -were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back -and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my -arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner -saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here -just a little while." They did make us go back in there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from? - -Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just -deputies--they weren't FBI or Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the -sheriff? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that -they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any -time--" I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say -something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing -that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he -said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service -that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was -taken--I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--I told -him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong -about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't." - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong--Featherstone or Lane? - -Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that--I told Mr. Lane that Mr. -Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, -"No; don't say that any more on the air." - -Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?" - -Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I -mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to -tell anyone"---- - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the -Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about -it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I -ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as I -can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day, -that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because -what he gave the Commission was basically true. - -Mr. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Except for what---- - -Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments? - -Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see -why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can -see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, -because he was listening to me--how the Commission could take it to -mean maybe something else? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission -could take them to mean maybe something else? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context--did -Mark Lane repeat them out of context? - -Mrs. HILL. To me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it -wasn't everything I said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took -your comments out of context? - -Mrs. HILL. So far as I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with -Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know -about? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about -the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told -me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when -you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview -you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th -of March? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any -Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have -already told me about? - -Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some -questions about your own background--first of all I would like you to -tell me how old you are, for the record? - -Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of -the country or what? - -Mrs. HILL. Where am I from? - -Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from? - -Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma? - -Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you married? - -Mrs. HILL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being -married at this moment? - -Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you? - -Mrs. HILL. I have two--a boy 12 and a girl 10. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background? - -Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist -University in Shawnee. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school? - -Mrs. HILL. 1948. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college? - -Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college? - -Mrs. HILL. That's right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time? - -Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for -the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the -Dallas Board of Education. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name? - -Mrs. HILL. Lollis. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation? - -Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately -IBM. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me -which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition. - -Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission? - -Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the -records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be -called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the -distinction of having been an eye witness. - -Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather--I mean, it's not -something you are--you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part -of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, -because--I think my children will be interested to know that someday -that I was in it someway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are -no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript -will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington -and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might -talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even -conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in -Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we -have the basic information from you which we need. - -Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to -Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it -is absolutely necessary. - -Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much. - -Mrs. HILL. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was -used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. -5. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, -for identification.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER - -The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MILLER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record. - -Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town. - -Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas? - -Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school? - -Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you work? - -Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King -Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. & -P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to -Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there? - -Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you do now? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff -compiler. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which -was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas? - -Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located? - -Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston -Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they -use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city -park there. - -Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all, -or not? - -Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of -that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street? - -Mr. MILLER. It would be south. - -Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street? - -Mr. MILLER. Four blocks. - -Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston? - -Mr. MILLER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade -came by? - -Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the -Main Street side. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three -underpasses there? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce, -and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that -is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and -part freeway? - -Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of -underpass. - -Mr. BELIN. Where you were? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get there? - -Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade? - -Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew? - -Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who -is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of -other employees I have seen in the building other than myself. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew? - -Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there? - -Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come -by? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on -Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street. - -Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is -when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle -backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see? - -Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was -two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't -know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall -forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, -I don't know exactly what she said. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? - -Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is -a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if -anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or -see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, -so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across -the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad -tracks. - -So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible -take off fast. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding? - -Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a -convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible -it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would -say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was -looking at him over toward that incline. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw. - -Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was -a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the -curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right -behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious -movements of any kind over there? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad -tracks, that you hadn't seen before? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right -at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about -5 or 10 feet behind us. - -Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if -you can remember? - -Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe -more, maybe less. - -Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the -vicinity at all on the railroad tracks? - -Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on -the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he -was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and -he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the -police officer made him go back down. - -Where he went to, I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. When was this? - -Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along. - -Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you -described? About how old he was, or anything? - -Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties. - -Mr. BELIN. Tall or short? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him -coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back. - -Mr. BELIN. So he went back down? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from? - -Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He -was from our left, from around behind that parking lot. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything -on the railroad tracks at any time? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the -police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started -searching. - -Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw? - -Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any -way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination? - -Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else. - -My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly -what all did happen for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did -we? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately -taking your testimony under oath, is that correct? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this -deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive -the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your -signing. What would be your preference? - -Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed---- - -Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed. - -Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference. - -Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You -can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here -again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and -sign. - -Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage -to not have to take off. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you -very much. - -There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on -the sketch where you were. - -Mr. MILLER. Okay. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I -am going to try and get this thing oriented here. - -Here is Houston Street running north this way. - -There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway -overpass. - -Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing. - -Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I -have put there, is that right? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of -Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. - -Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY - -The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal. - -Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? - -Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth. - -Mr. BALL. How many years ago? - -Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have? - -Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade. - -Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general -way--you don't need to go into great detail? - -Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916. - -Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal -Co.? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day? - -Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the -other end. - -Mr. BALL. What was that? - -Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor. - -Mr. BALL. Who were you working with? - -Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday. - -Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street? - -Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there -together to see the parade. - -Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office? - -Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop. - -Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation? - -Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor. - -Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go? - -Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass? - -Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there. - -Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over -Elm, over Main, or over Commerce? - -Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. REILLY. We were between them. - -Mr. BALL. Between what streets? - -Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main. - -Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of -another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is -north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets. - -Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the -overpass. - -Mr. REILLY. We were between the two. - -Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and -make a mark and show me where you were standing? - -Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass. - -Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters -up there and it was about like that, I guess. - -Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there. - -Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by -Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there -when the motorcade came along? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you? - -Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney. - -Mr. BALL. And what are his initials? - -Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd. - -Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it? - -Mr. REILLY. I think so. - -Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.? - -Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers. - -Mr. BALL. Who else was with him? - -Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I -don't know their names? - -Mr. BALL. What are their names? - -Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them. - -Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland? - -Mr. REILLY. We were together. - -Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there? - -Mr. REILLY. We were together. - -Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you? - -Mr. REILLY. And me. - -Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men? - -Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they -were. - -Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there. - -Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is---- - -Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their -name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a -while to put in lamps. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named -Skelton there? - -Mr. REILLY. No; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller? - -Mr. REILLY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location? - -Mr. REILLY. All right close together. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there? - -Mr. REILLY. One behind me. - -Mr. BALL. One behind you? - -Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks. - -Mr. BALL. That would be where? - -Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there? - -Mr. REILLY. On the far side. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? - -Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side. - -Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark -down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you -remember it. - -Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here. - -Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing -behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along -here, but just how far back, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers -were standing. - -Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, -I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing? - -Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8." - -Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of -you? - -Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me. - -Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and -Commerce"--this other police officer was near what? - -Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was -two of them up there. - -Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you? - -Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and -west--these streets. - -Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south. - -Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me. - -Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one -here---- - -Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there, -was there? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. One was closer than the other one? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How close was the one that was closer to you? - -Mr. REILLY. I have an idea about 8 or 10 feet. - -Mr. BALL. And how far away was the other one? - -Mr. REILLY. About the width of that overpass across--75 or 80 feet -across there. - -Mr. BALL. One was 8 or 10 feet from you, and the other one was 75 feet -from you and they were both behind you? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street? - -Mr. REILLY. No; not until it turned and started to come under the -underpass. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you first see it? - -Mr. REILLY. When it turned off of Houston Street and started around. - -Mr. BALL. Onto Elm Street? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you saw the President's car, when it -turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many people were there on the overpass at the time--at -that time? - -Mr. REILLY. Just what I told you. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me again. - -Mr. REILLY. Well, there was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and those two -fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all I remember seeing -out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear something? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. REILLY. Three shots. - -Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from; what direction? - -Mr. REILLY. It seemed to me like they come out of the trees. - -Mr. BALL. What trees? - -Mr. REILLY. On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there. - -Mr. BALL. On the north side of Elm--on what corner? - -Mr. REILLY. Well, where all those trees are--you've never been down -there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; I've been there, but you tell me--I want you to tell me -because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing. - -Mr. REILLY. Well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up -there--it's to the north of Elm Street--up the slope. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons fly? - -Mr. REILLY. No; I didn't pay no attention to that. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots? - -Mr. REILLY. I just stood there a few minutes and then I went on down to -the shop. - -Mr. BALL. Which way did you walk? - -Mr. REILLY. South. - -Mr. BALL. South? - -Mr. REILLY. Toward the post office. - -Mr. BALL. Your shop is down south of that place? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes; it's the other side of the station. - -Mr. BALL. Who walked with you? - -Mr. REILLY. Nobody. - -Mr. BALL. You walked alone? - -Mr. REILLY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Reilly. This will be written up and -you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your -signature if you wish. - -Which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want -to waive your signature? - -Mr. REILLY. No; I'll do anything you want me to. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do -you want to do? - -Mr. REILLY. I'll sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -This young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down -here and sign it. How is that? - -Mr. REILLY. Well, will I have to come back? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; you will. - -Mr. REILLY. It is hard for me to get off. - -Mr. BALL. It is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is -inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as Exhibit A to -your deposition. - -Mr. REILLY. All right. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Reilly Exhibit A," for -identification.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN - -The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Mr. BROWN. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BROWN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please. - -Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BROWN. Policeman. - -Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman? - -Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training? - -Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I -completed 12 years of schooling, high school. - -Mr. BALL. High school? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; -Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 -months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually -when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, -let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and -then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on -duty? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway -service road. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm? - -Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm? - -Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm. - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What does it cross? - -Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make -that turn off Elm and go up. - -Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a -little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway? - -Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a -road. Where I was was the railroad overpass. - -Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm -goes under the overpass? - -Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be -your position. You were appointed to this particular spot? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the -highway? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it? - -Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the -service road both go under the underpass. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. BROWN. James Lomax. - -Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under -the underpass? - -Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards. - -Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction? - -Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to -easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a -20 deg. angle to the right. - -Mr. BALL. You would be east or west? - -Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that. - -Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight -from where you were located? - -Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming -and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we -probably could see would be cars. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and -going down toward the underpass south? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You could see those? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this -location? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were they? - -Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward -and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass. - -Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax? - -Mr. BROWN. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown? - -Mr. BROWN. That's me. - -Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy? - -Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he? - -Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his -three-wheeler. - -Mr. BALL. On his motor? - -Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass? - -Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad -detectives come up there and talked to us. - -Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people? - -Mr. BROWN. Underneath? - -Mr. BALL. No; up above. - -Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What about underneath? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to -walk. - -Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing? - -Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us. - -Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you -know. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards? - -Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out. - -Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing? - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your -vision to the railroad yards? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level -we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't -have a very good view. - -Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston -Street from Elm; were you able to see that? - -Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it -stopped. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it -stopped. - -Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop? - -Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to. - -Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. BROWN. Three. - -Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would -you like me to tell you? - -Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words. - -Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot -of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did -because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom? - -Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this -overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. -It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they -were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at -least it smelled like it to me. - -Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from? - -Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that -Texas---- - -Mr. BALL. School Book Depository? - -Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building? - -Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound? - -Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that -building because actually it seemed to come from there. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise? - -Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because -they just seemed to all take off. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing? - -Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way -between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what -they call the triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. The triple underpass? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass? - -Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass? - -Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers? - -Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the -motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, -I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on -ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it -passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer -in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like -a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the -back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; -of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the -fact it did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction? - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept -checking that area through there and, of course, there were people -all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad -right-of-way through there. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the -point where Elm goes underneath? - -Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers. - -Mr. BALL. More than one? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area? - -Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and -later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book -Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those -cars parked around there, which we did. - -Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there -was several cars parked all around that building. - -Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five -officers taking license numbers. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you around there? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass -and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there -until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall -and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you -can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your -signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish? - -Mr. BROWN. You mean today? - -Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so. - -Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer? - -Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have? - -Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign -it---- - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and -sign it. It is your option; you can do either way. - -Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED - -The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your -deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown? - -Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling). - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to -have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a -north and south direction? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and -south, doesn't it? - -Mr. BROWN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses? - -Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you? - -Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here--this TP Railroad overpass. - -Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction? - -Mr. BROWN. Right--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position -on the overpass? - -Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the -tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each -side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end -and we would walk the tracks and come around there. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on -Houston and Elm Street? - -Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk. - -Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position? - -Mr. BROWN. I would be--approximately in the center. (Instrument marked -by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that. - -Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass? - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there. - -Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where -Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass--you -don't recall seeing anybody? - -Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there. - -Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers. - -Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers--would be the only -ones I saw. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were? - -Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have -positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram? - -Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark -that as Brown Exhibits--the X marks the position of Brown, is that -correct? - -Mr. BROWN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much. - -Mr. BROWN. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown -Exhibit A," for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming. - -Mr. BROWN. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROYCE G. SKELTON - -The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth? - -Mr. SKELTON. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, for the record? - -Mr. SKELTON. Royce G. Skelton. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. SKELTON. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you work? - -Mr. SKELTON. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and where did you come from? - -Mr. SKELTON. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school? - -Mr. SKELTON. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I -graduated from Wichita Falls High School. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me where you went to school. - -Mr. SKELTON. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at -Midwestern University. - -Mr. BALL. And when did you go to work for the railroad? - -Mr. SKELTON. February 1, 1963. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? - -Mr. SKELTON. Mail clerk. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade -of the President? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20--I -think it was 12:15, or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down there with? - -Mr. SKELTON. Austin Miller and myself. - -Mr. BALL. Where does he work? - -Mr. SKELTON. He is a mail clerk also in the same company. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stand to watch the parade? - -Mr. SKELTON. Well, we were directly over Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. Directly over Elm? - -Mr. SKELTON. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on -the street. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody else there on the overpass? - -Mr. SKELTON. There were quite a few people up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know any of them? - -Mr. SKELTON. Well, I know by sight--I knew the electrician, an old man -that's an electrician. - -Mr. BALL. Frank Reilly? - -Mr. SKELTON. Is that his name? - -Mr. BALL. The man that was here a moment ago--his name is Reilly. - -Mr. SKELTON. I know him when I see him. - -Mr. BALL. Yes---- - -Mr. SKELTON. And Austin Miller, of course. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad? - -Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I -see them around there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officers there? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes; this man right here--they say it was him--I don't -recall whether it was or not. - -Mr. BALL. Who--Mr. Brown? - -Mr. SKELTON. The one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was -the one up there, but I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't recognize him there? - -Mr. SKELTON. No; I didn't recognize him. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you saw some police officers up there? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? - -Mr. SKELTON. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in -the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple -underpass. - -Mr. BALL. By "far side," you mean where? - -Mr. SKELTON. It would be back on this side. - -Mr. BALL. It would be south? - -Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it? - -Mr. BALL. Elm runs east and west. - -Mr. SKELTON. It would be the west side. - -Mr. BALL. It would be west? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on -Stemmons--I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad -overpass on Stemmons. - -Mr. BALL. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad -overpass? - -Mr. SKELTON. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw. - -Mr. BALL. And how many men did you see standing right near on the -railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately? - -Mr. SKELTON. Eight, including the officer--eight or nine. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag -turn. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear something soon after that? - -Mr. SKELTON. Just about the same time the car straightened up--got -around the corner--I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time -they were shots. - -Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from? - -Mr. SKELTON. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from -where I was. - -Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were -standing? - -Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right -there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they -were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see -the smoke coming up off the cement. - -Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what -direction? - -Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car. - -Mr. BALL. From the President's car? - -Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't -distinguish because it was too far away. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there? - -Mr. SKELTON. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the -President was shot. - -Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. SKELTON. I think I heard four--I mean--I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. BALL. You think you heard four? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot? - -Mr. SKELTON. Not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and -everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio. -We couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the President had -been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked -us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said -he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the -sheriff's office. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that? - -Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at -all. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and -submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can -waive your signature. - -Which do you want to do? - -Mr. SKELTON. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right. - -Mr. BALL. That is fine. Thank you very much. - -Mr. SKELTON. There's one thing I could say--you have that other report? - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. SKELTON. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the -pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of -where you say Oswald was. - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that. - -Tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke? - -Mr. SKELTON. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to -the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I -heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I -take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the President's car -on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from -the building. - -Mr. BALL. You mean there was some smoke in the building? - -Mr. SKELTON. No; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit -with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread. - -Mr. BALL. Which way did it spread? - -Mr. SKELTON. It spread just right in line, like you said. - -Mr. BALL. I haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was? - -Mr. SKELTON. Like I said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know, -in a direct line from the Texas Depository. - -Mr. BALL. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is -that right? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Thanks very much. - -I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were -standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no -attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing. - -Mr. SKELTON. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as -requested by Counsel Ball). - -Mr. BALL. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where -you were standing with your friend? - -Mr. SKELTON. Approximately--yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around -there? - -Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard -people say they did, but I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. But you did see something light on the street? - -Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About where? - -Mr. SKELTON. A bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion -[referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here -[indicating on diagram]. - -Mr. BALL. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the -first Skelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark -here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go? - -Mr. SKELTON. Just like it was going there. - -Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray -was going. - -Mr. SKELTON. (Marks the diagram with arrow.) - -Mr. BALL. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton -exhibit A and attach it to your deposition. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for -identification) - -Mr. BALL. Thank you and that is all. - -Mr. SKELTON. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF S. M. HOLLAND - -The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964 -in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his -attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison. - - -Mr. STERN. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be -sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. - -You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence? - -The Reporter. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission -asking you to come and testify today? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the -facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want -your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination -from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your -name and residence address? - -Mr. HOLLAND. S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been employed by that organization? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Union Terminal since 1938. - -Mr. STERN. Now on Friday November 22, will you describe what you did -concerning the President's visit and where you were? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a -plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had -some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a -parade, and I left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to -the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back -up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. -That is the railroad people. - -Mr. STERN. Where is your office Mr Holland? - -Mr. HOLLAND. At the Union Terminal Station. - -Mr. STERN. Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile, a very -short distance. - -Mr. STERN. And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 -altogether? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Two--there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in -plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen. - -Mr. STERN. You don't know what his affiliation was? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I know he was a plainclothes detective or FBI agent or -some thing like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back -and after lunch I would go up there. - -Mr. STERN. Approximately what time did you arrive up there? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, -and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at -the Union Terminal, and department so-and-so. - -Mr. STERN. Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then -until 12:30? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there -then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Reilly? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Reilly. - -Mr. STERN. Who was---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn. - -Mr. STERN. Luke? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Winburn. - -Mr. STERN. And---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car -department. - -Mr. STERN. Johnson. - -Mr. HOLLAND. And there was another fellow who worked at the car -department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name. - -Mr. STERN. That makes six people so far. Are these all employees of---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Of the terminal? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the -Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I -do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business. -Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee, -and one was a T. & P. employee. - -Mr. STERN. Could you give me their full names? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad. - -Mr. STERN. You don't know the names of those particular men? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; I don't. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see them here today? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification -from them. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen -that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just -before---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; neither one of those. - -Mr. STERN. Did you recognize either of those two men? - -Mr. HOLLAND. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an -electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver. - -Mr. STERN. The electrician, do you know his name? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Frank Reilly. - -Mr. STERN. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't -notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I -guess--Davey Cowzert was up there, too. - -Mr. STERN. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize -either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as -being people who were on the overpass that day? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No. - -Mr. STERN. All right. - -Mr. HOLLAND. There was two people I did recognize and that was the -cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up -there with me. - -Mr. STERN. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was -on the triple overpass at the time? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert. - -Mr. STERN. Is he also an employee? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; he is. - -Mr. STERN. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time -the Presidential motorcade---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Came into view? - -Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around -the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me--why in the -world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around -the fence to what was happening. - -Mr. STERN. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police -officers were on the overpass at the time? - -Mr. HOLLAND. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that -time. - -Mr. STERN. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the -Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on -the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following -employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. -Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other -man? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two -employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, -by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I -can't remember who it was or their names, because---- - -Mr. STERN. Before the motorcade started? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Before the motorcade started. - -Mr. STERN. These were people you recognized as employees? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I -think he was asking for credentials. - -Mr. STERN. The uniformed policeman? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep -them---- - -Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being -terminal or railroad employees? - -Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose -for going up there. - -Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's -motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass -that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad -employees, or as a policeman? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a -few came up there right in the last moments. - -Mr. STERN. There were? Tell us about that. - -Mr. HOLLAND. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people -up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few -minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their -identification, and---- - -Mr. STERN. Is this just about the time of the motorcade? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there -was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself. - -Mr. STERN. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the -police? - -Mr. HOLLAND. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass. - -Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked -by this policeman for identification? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I think everyone was checked by some person. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the -overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 -people. - -Mr. STERN. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail. - -Mr. STERN. Turning right off of Main onto Houston? - -Mr. HOLLAND. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto -Houston. - -Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you -were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is -where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass -over Elm Street? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. And where, in relation to the concrete fence that---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Picket fence or concrete? - -Mr. STERN. No; the concrete. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, the concrete banister? - -Mr. STERN. The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I was; would you like to see the exact location? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. HOLLAND. This is my son standing in the exact location I was in -[indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. Off the record a moment. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit -B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph -you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position -at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the -motorcade came into view. - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you -indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were -standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two -police officers who were on the overpass? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was -standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me. - -Mr. STERN. Put a "2" where you believe he was standing. - -Mr. HOLLAND. He was standing in close enough so that he could see, -but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, -unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned -there. I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time -I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about -[indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. Standing almost directly behind you? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all -railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately -before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't -know, but--because I was watching them. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you -indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people -were who were on the overpass at this time. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well---- - -Mr. STERN. Were they all standing in one group? - -Mr. HOLLAND. There was a pretty close group between this column here, -and this place right in there. In other words, if I can--had a shot of -it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one. - -Mr. STERN. What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the -overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be -the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or -something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get -to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in -here, over to right in here [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. All right. Now---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here -to this [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that -runs from the end of the concrete banister? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. Over to a little---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Little house there. - -Mr. STERN. Little---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. What do they call that thing? - -Mr. MORRISON. I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main -Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young -ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge--would say -they were standing about here [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. Put No. 4 there, please. Fine. - -Mr. HOLLAND. And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the -President was waving to the people on this side [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. That is the north side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; on the north side. - -Mr. STERN. All right. - -Mr. HOLLAND. And she was looking in this direction [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. "She," is Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. HOLLAND. His wife. And about that time---- - -Mr. STERN. Was looking in a southern direction? - -Mr. HOLLAND. In the southern direction. - -Mr. STERN. South side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HOLLAND. And about that time he went over like that [indicating], -and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could -tell. - -Mr. STERN. Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward -and raised your right hand? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily. - -Mr. STERN. With his right hand? - -Mr. HOLLAND. His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard. - -Mr. STERN. What did it sound like? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath -this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from -underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a -few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that -[indicating] with his hand out, and another report. - -Mr. STERN. With his right hand out? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Turning to his right. - -Mr. STERN. To his right? - -Mr. HOLLAND. And another report rang out and he slumped down in his -seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over -here [indicating]. The girls standing--now one of them was taking a -picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned -around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she -realized what was happening, I guess. - -Now, I mean, that was apparently that--she turned back around, and by -the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in--I'd say -along in here [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. How do you know that? Did you observe that? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the -floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---- - -Mr. STERN. Did you hear a third report? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I heard a third report and I counted four shots and -about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of -trees--[indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm -Street? - -Mr. HOLLAND. These trees right along here [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees -you are referring to. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Right in there. (Indicating.) - -There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I -can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above -the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this -location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, -like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that -is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous -reports or shots. - -Mr. STERN. What number would that have been in the---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, that would--they were so close together. - -Mr. STERN. The second and third or the third and fourth? - -Mr. HOLLAND. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth. - -Mr. STERN. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth? - -Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were -definitely four reports. - -Mr. STERN. You have no doubt about that? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing -that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of -of the FBI several days after? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's -office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there -were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot. - -Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at -that time? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. You were certain then? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I was certain then and I--in that statement I believe that -I---- - -Mr. STERN. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either -three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the -agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four. - -Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty -well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever -took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they -were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six -Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of -smoke and heard the report from under those trees. - -Mr. STERN. Did you realize that these were shots then? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there. - -Mr. STERN. You did? - -Mr. HOLLAND. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat. - -Mr. STERN. What did you then do? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, immediately after the shots was fired, I run around -the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone -up there behind the fence. - -Mr. STERN. That is the picket fence? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That is the picket fence. - -Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was -just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and -I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this -fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 -policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around -there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the -office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, -and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to -the office and took me back up to the courthouse. - -Mr. STERN. Did he know you personally? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He -didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at -the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the -statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out -the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that -policeman. - -I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately -after the motorcade had passed through there. - -Mr STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if -you had one? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or -three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I -was. - -Mr. STERN. East on Elm? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have -the least idea that it was up any higher, but I thought the shot was -coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it -sounded like to me from where I was. - -Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a -square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I -take it, that the shots were coming from your area? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No. - -Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far -as the sound was concerned? - -Mr. HOLLAND. As far as the sound was concerned they did not. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any -way unusual? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, no; no. - -Mr. STERN. All right. Off the record. - -(Off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy -of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit -you made that you described a few moments ago? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. STERN. Would you read that. - -Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was -inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was -standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was -coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I -heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over -and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke -come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot -but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around -to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running -from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the -arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over -and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to -him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret -Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped -back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is -spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come -back and tell Bill." - -That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too. - -Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Stand there and watch two or three men get killed---- - -Mr. STERN. Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, -thought you heard four shots at that time? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. All right. - -Mr. HOLLAND. But, two of them was rather close together, though. - -Mr. STERN. So close do you think that might have been one shot? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No, it was four. - -Mr. STERN. You are clear there were four? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; it was different sounds, different reports. - -Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would -like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed? - -Mr. MORRISON. Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't -then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was -a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, -and a spot. I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had -been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them -about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the -bumper of that station wagon. - -Mr. STERN. This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well, -why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would -have been. - -Mr. HOLLAND. If we could call this the arcade [indicating]---- - -Mr. STERN. All right. - -Mr. HOLLAND. And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about -here [indicating]. - -Mr. STERN. All right. - -Mr. MORRISON. That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence, -wouldn't it? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car -would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which -would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the -trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location. - -Mr. STERN. All right. And this was a station wagon? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the -time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law -enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that -they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had -been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy. - -Mr. STERN. Tracks you saw in the mud? - -Mr. HOLLAND. It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted -them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one -location. It was just---- - -Mr. STERN. And then you saw some mud on the bumper? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Mud on the bumper in two spots. - -Mr. STERN. As if someone had cleaned his foot, or---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on -the bumper to see over the fence. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down -in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you -could---- - -Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall the---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location. - -Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes. - -Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I -couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I -have thought about it a lot of times since then. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the -station wagon? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the -rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of -your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was -just a beehive. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes. - -Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the -Dallas Police officers about it? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did. - -Mr. STERN. This is really the first time---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I -remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember -that, but I don't think I did. - -Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did. - -Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it -because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of -everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went -on back to my office. - -Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were -fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go. - -Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Or, that area? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to -searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there -then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the -tracks there in one little spot. - -Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the -shots were fired? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the -cars. - -Mr. STERN. In front of the cars---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I -came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked -back down looking around, just like the rest of them. - -Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 -minutes after I got up to the end of the fence. - -Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are -regularly parked? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and -people over to the courthouse. They park in there. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' -cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in -there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble. - -Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in -that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the -middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in -his hand. - -Mr. STERN. Toward---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. The location that---- - -Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke? - -Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to -ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and -he run up the rest of the way on foot. - -Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the---- - -Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the---- - -Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired? - -Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired. - -Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade? - -Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle -down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his -pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over -the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his -motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there -the rest of the way with his---- - -Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the -fence. - -Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline? - -Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened. - -Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No. - -Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you? - -Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I -am tickled. - -Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here -today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and -you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if -you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly -to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you -prefer. - -Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon -as his transcript is ready to read. - -Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the -authorities in any way? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will. - -Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up? - -Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will. - -Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal -friends for over 10 years, haven't we? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. - -Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought -you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less -nervous? - -Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went -over to that sheriff's office that afternoon. - -Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER - - -The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FOSTER. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in -and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was -established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff -counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions -about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your address? - -Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer. - -Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Patrolman? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department? - -Mr. FOSTER. Nine years. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? - -Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro. - -Mr. BALL. What was your education? - -Mr. FOSTER. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school? - -Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. FOSTER. Service. - -Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy---- - -Mr. FOSTER. Army. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here. - -Mr. BALL. On the police department? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the -Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of -accidents. - -Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that? - -Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all -unauthorized personnel off of it. - -Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why? - -Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there. - -Mr. BALL. What are they? - -Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm. - -Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it. - -Mr. FOSTER. All right. - -(Off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about -the time that the President's motorcade came into sight? - -Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south -curb of Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass. - -Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position? - -Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he? - -Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the east side? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was on the west side? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we -will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition. - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and -south direction, is that right? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there. - -Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it -down below the Terminal. - -Mr. BALL. There are yards south? - -Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. That is north and west? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And also south? - -Mr. FOSTER. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it? - -Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto -Houston. - -Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time. - -Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing? - -Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass -over Elm Street there. About the south curb. - -Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were -standing and write your initials right next to that "X". - -J.--what are the initials? - -Mr. FOSTER. J. W. - -Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing. - -Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it -turned? - -Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the -overpass there with me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel -off of that overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you do that? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there. - -Mr. BALL. Were there many people? - -Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? - -Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister. - -Mr. BALL. The east banister? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me. - -Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the -general area where they were standing? - -Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people -were standing? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that -day? - -Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side. - -Mr. BALL. He was on the west side? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was his name? - -Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the -position you have indicated? - -Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be -on the west side of the banister. - -Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car -passed--turned onto Elm from Houston. - -Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the -track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a -large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the -second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was -happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move -around. I ran after I saw what was happening. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening? - -Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head -looked just like it blew up. - -Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? - -Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to -the left--around to the bookstore. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source -of the sounds, the direction of the sounds? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston -Streets. - -Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the -overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there? - -Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore. - -Mr. BALL. Immediately? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that? - -Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the -bookstore at that time? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather -back in that area. - -Mr. BALL. At that time? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west -of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired? - -Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent -them back down the roadway. - -Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building, -what did you do? - -Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one -came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check -the--all the railroad cars down there. - -Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant? - -Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars? - -Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to -report back to Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you -thought the shots came from? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them? - -Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and -Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to -Sawyer? - -Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant? - -Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could -find where any of the shots hit. - -Mr. BALL. Find anything? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at -the location. - -Mr. BALL. Hit the turf? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole -cover right at the corner and---- - -Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole -cover. Do you recognize that picture? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there. - -Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the -turf right here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on -the concrete, right in the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw -that? - -Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the -position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Went into the turf? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot? - -Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location. - -Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture? - -Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let -them take it. Can I see the picture? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture? - -Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture. - -Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A" -and "B" now. - -Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your -signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or -you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer? - -Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter. - -Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice. - -Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and -sign it. - -Mr. FOSTER. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please. - -Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster? - -Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness. - -Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the -overpass? - -Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees? - -Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they -had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were -employees. - -Mr. BALL. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE - -The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WHITE. I do. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. - -Mr. WHITE. J. C. White. - -Mr. BALL. What is your residence? - -Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite. - -Mr. BALL. And your occupation? - -Mr. WHITE. Policeman. - -Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. For a request to---- - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your---- - -Mr. WHITE. Captain. - -Mr. BALL. Which captain? - -Mr. WHITE. Lawrence. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts -and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. -We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have -that might aid us in that investigation. - -I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am -authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During -the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and -the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of -some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry -if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the -reason you are here. - -You are willing to testify, are you not? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it. - -Mr. WHITE. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you. - -Mr. WHITE. Okay. - -Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born? - -Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school? - -Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army. - -Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army? - -Mr. WHITE. About 3 years. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do? - -Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus? - -Mr. WHITE. 6 years. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. How long ago? - -Mr. WHITE. 1956. - -Mr. BALL. And what are you now? - -Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator. - -Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you? - -Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass. - -Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as -they go underneath the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street. - -Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the -north curb of Main? That would be---- - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can -use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram -that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks -and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want -you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on -the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it. - -You have made an "X". - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main? - -Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main. - -Mr. BALL. The north curb? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. North curb of Main? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day? - -Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. WHITE. None. - -Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around -noon? - -Mr. WHITE. Not on my side. - -Mr. BALL. They did not? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the -overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were they? - -Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, -didn't you? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who were they? - -Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company. - -Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad -company? - -Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on -the rails. - -Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the -triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you? - -Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train -passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the -procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and I did not -see it. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel -over on the--would it be the---- - -Mr. WHITE. East side? - -Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many people? - -Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going -underneath? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest -side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book -store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes -they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I -stood out there and worked traffic. - -Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or -anything? - -Mr. WHITE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Making noise? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass? - -Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for -your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. -Which do you wish to do? - -Mr. WHITE. You said a while ago to him it would be written up like -this? Is that correct? - -Mr. BALL. No, it will be written up in the form of a deposition. - -Mr. WHITE. I will waive. - -Mr. BALL. You waive it. Okay. Fine. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY - -The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MURPHY. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? - -Mr. MURPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, -Drive. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? - -Mr. MURPHY. Police officer. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department? - -Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year. - -Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. MURPHY. Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. MURPHY. High school--St. Joseph High School here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class -D--West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the -Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years -and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you? - -Mr. MURPHY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler? - -Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler--yes. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass--the Stemmons Freeway -overpass northbound at Elm Street--over Elm. - -Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have? - -Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and -to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show -your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument--Murphy -Exhibit A, for identification.) - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were -standing, is that right? - -Mr. MURPHY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position -1, using an "X". - -Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested -by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on that overpass? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; there were two more about--oh, a 100 feet south of -me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered -the Stemmons Freeway north entrance. - -Mr. BALL. Now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade -came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; they did. - -Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass -at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3). - -Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3)? - -Mr. MURPHY. I can't recall. I know them but I can't recall who they -were. - -Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive -three-wheelers? - -Mr. MURPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers. - -Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic -on Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers -farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches -pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then -stop it. They did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic -as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the -excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then -it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position. - -Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on -the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down? - -Mr. MURPHY. No; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of -the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived. - -Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you? - -Mr. MURPHY. It was me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as -you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that -you encounter? - -Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering -and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass? - -Mr. MURPHY. There were two. - -Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them -before the motorcade arrived? - -Mr. MURPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side--one here and one -over on this side. - -Mr. BALL. All right, mark the position of the officer on the west side -as Position (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5). - -(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) -Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know their names? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers? - -Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn't say. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on -this railroad overpass? - -Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10--from what I could see--about 8 -or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad -employees. - -Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm -Street. - -Mr. BALL. They were all together? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy -drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as -requested by Counsel Ball). - -Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And mark that (6). - -(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many? - -Mr. MURPHY. 8 to 10 persons. - -Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and -Houston? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view? - -Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a -few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is -some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what -you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1)? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned -west on Elm from Houston? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it -before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill. - -Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on -Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were -you looking? - -Mr. MURPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction. - -Mr. BALL. Toward what? - -Mr. MURPHY. Toward the motorcade--towards the President's car. - -Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad -men where you have marked Position (6)? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, I didn't--I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who -were at Position (4) and (5)? - -Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also. - -Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass -except the ones you have described? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something--heard shots? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard--I knew they were shots as soon as I heard -them, but I thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun, -and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and -everything--then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do -quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, just from the direction I was looking--that's all -I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was -standing. - -Mr. BALL. And were there echoes? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few. - -Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do -anything? - -Mr. MURPHY. I don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I -did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment -on Elm and running. That would be here--right in here. - -Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm? - -Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were -running and mark that arrow as "7"--that's the direction you saw people -running? - -Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, -they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book -Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because -I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other -people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position -(6) on your map? - -Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing -up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I -found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, -north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other -officers had it stopped there. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at your position? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes -after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio -that there had been a shooting--the President had been shot--and then I -went towards the Book Depository. - -I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then--off of -the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the -next--I would say hour or hour and a half at least. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses? - -Mr. MURPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said -they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took -them to the sheriff's office across the street. - -Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the -investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district -attorney's investigators, that's who they were. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes of their names? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, one man in particular--he was standing on Elm--he -was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and -he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one -shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that -he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here -on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from -overhead to his rear. - -Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or -statement? - -Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your -deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over -and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is -your option--what would you like to do? - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't, -that's perfectly all right with me. - -Mr. BALL. It isn't necessary. - -Mr. MURPHY. Well, that's all right then. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature? - -Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. - -Mr. MURPHY. All right--certainly. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROGER D. CRAIG - -The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, -please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CRAIG. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your full name? - -Mr. CRAIG. Roger Dean Craig. - -Mr. BELIN. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Craig? - -Mr. CRAIG. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. And what's your occupation? - -Mr. CRAIG. Deputy Sheriff. - -Mr. BELIN. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Craig? - -Mr. CRAIG. 27. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you raised here in Texas? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran -away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were 12? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12--or not? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service -in Japan when--uh--I was 19, and passed it and got my high school -equivalent test--I mean, my diploma. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you in the Service, then? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. In what branch? - -Mr. CRAIG. I was in the Army. - -Mr. BELIN. And how long were you in the Army? - -Mr. CRAIG. 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living -with anyone or were you on your own--or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite. - -Mr. BELIN. Where? - -Mr. CRAIG. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when -you were 12? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. And then where did you live? - -Mr. CRAIG. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and -then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you were married when you were---- - -Mr. CRAIG. 16. - -Mr. BELIN. 16. And where? - -Mr. CRAIG. Here in Texas. - -Mr. BELIN. Here in Texas. - -And then you enlisted in the Army when? - -Mr. CRAIG. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you went in the Service? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And served overseas? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You were discharged when, then? - -Mr. CRAIG. In--uh--October of 1955, I believe. In September or October -of 1955, sir, is when I got out. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you were in the service? - -Mr. CRAIG. I served in the--uh--motor pool of the 92d Armored Field. - -Mr. BELIN. And, after you got out of service, what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a -dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a -while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey -Lane here in Dallas--2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about -3-1/2 years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex -Corp.? - -Mr. CRAIG. Packager. I just packaged the Purex. - -Mr. BELIN. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's -Office? - -Mr. CRAIG. In October--October the 9th of 1959. - -Mr. BELIN. And you've been there ever since? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you married? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d, -1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's -office that day? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is the sheriff's office located? - -Mr. CRAIG. 505 Main Street. - -Mr. BELIN. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the -south side of Main? - -Mr. CRAIG. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that -Record Street there? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over -to Elm Street. It covers that entire block. - -Mr. BELIN. How far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then -the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street. - -Mr. BELIN. To Record Street. - -Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on -November 22? - -Mr. CRAIG. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade. -I went out there about--oh--5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited -directly in front of the front door on the curb. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be on the north curb of Main? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the -motorcade finally came by. - -Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on -Main Street? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely -moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20--what? - -Mr. CRAIG. Probably going--probably 3 or 4 miles an hour. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You saw the President's car? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and -Houston? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then it turned? - -Mr. CRAIG. Turned north on Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, about the same. They--uh--they were going about the same -speed as they made the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the -President's car? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the -front part of it and--uh--I believe behind it--just a little ways -behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side -of the car, as I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. The ones on the front--where would the back wheels of -the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the -President's car? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and -moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us. - -Mr. BELIN. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the -car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to -the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car? - -Mr. CRAIG. About equal to the back bumper. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those? - -Mr. CRAIG. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of -course, and a few of the others. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car? - -Mr. CRAIG. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe -there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched -the President's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after -the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there -looking around, you know. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what happened? - -Mr. CRAIG. Then I heard an explosion. - -Mr. BELIN. When you heard the explosion, what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, the first--nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew -it was a shot but--uh--I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds -later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. -And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward -Houston Street. - -Mr. BELIN. How many explosions did you hear altogether? - -Mr. CRAIG. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far were these noises apart? - -Mr. CRAIG. The first one was--uh--about three seconds--2 or 3 seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been -a little longer. - -Mr. BELIN. And what about between the second and third? - -Mr. CRAIG. Not more than 2 seconds. It was--they were real rapid. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. I continued running across Houston Street, across the -parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on -down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to -look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I -began moving people back out of the railroad yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came -from? - -Mr. CRAIG. It was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know. -There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the--uh--the -shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell. - -Mr. BELIN. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they -thought the shots came from? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl -getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the -north side of Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she thought they came from there? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that -particular point---- - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. And she thought that's where they came from. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this -girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some -other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two -men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; -one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought -they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was -about--uh--oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold -Rowland--(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that sound like it? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; it sounds like the name--yes. - -Mr. BELIN. His wife might be Barbara Rowland? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else -or talk with anyone before you got back with them? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around, you know, for just--after I turned -this girl over to Mr. Lewis--I began looking around and talking to -people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this -man and his wife. - -Mr. BELIN. And about what time do you think this was in relation -to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this -young couple? - -Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe. - -Mr. BELIN. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after -the shots were fired? - -Mr. CRAIG. It might have been 10 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this -girl say that she saw any person with a rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; no. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the -rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. On the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the -west end of the south side, or the west side? - -Mr. CRAIG. The west end of the south side. - -Mr. BELIN. Of the sixth floor? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he point out the window to you? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. From the west corner, where would this window have been? -Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. It was the--uh--the second window from the corner. - -They were walking, you know, back and forth. - -Mr. BELIN. He said that the two men were walking back and forth? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is -located near you, is it not? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south -side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows. - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been--when you say "the second window from -the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but -the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second -pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember that now. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the -rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later -and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man -with the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle -was there? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw -the man with the rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. I believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last -time he looked up there. - -Mr. BELIN. And about how long was that before the shots were fired? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about 15 -minutes before the motorcade arrived. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up -there to just see the one man. He just said--uh--a few minutes later he -looked back up. - -Mr. BELIN. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man -with the rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. Just the one man. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle? - -Mr. CRAIG. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking -out the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say how far the man was from the window? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; huh-uh. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the -window? - -Mr. CRAIG. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead. -You know, straight out. - -Mr. BELIN. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would -this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a -position to hold a weapon? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to -Officer Lewis for interrogation. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis--(spelling) -L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you left this young couple? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting -that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them--all -the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him -over to officer Lewis, was probably--uh--3 minutes--3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. Because--uh--I took him immediately up there to him when he -told me what he'd seen. - -Mr. BELIN. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from -that School Book Depository Building--do you know? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. I don't--uh--I don't recall that. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off -in any way the entrance or the building--the School Book Depository -Building--or not? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; no. I didn't notice that. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice that? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the -assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to -Sheriff Lemmy Lewis? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, it was about--well, I guess, 12 minutes--10, 12 minutes. -Something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just -observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to -someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to -Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy -Walthers--(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal -investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the -south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed--walked down -the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet -might have hit. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off -the south curb of Elm? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So, -we checked it. - -Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted -bullet? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were -searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone -whistle. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you -had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this -whistle? - -Mr. CRAIG. Fourteen or 15 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Fourteen or 15 minutes? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this, you mean, after the shooting? - -Mr. CRAIG. After the--from the time I heard the first shot. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You heard someone whistle? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the -hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in -front of it. He was on the south side of it. - -Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension -of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right; right. - -Mr. BELIN. And where was he with relation to the west side of the -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the -west corner--the southwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the -building? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right -in front of the building there? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under -the underpass? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -And then what did you see happen? - -Mr. CRAIG. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, -coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in -line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the -hill at the man running down. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from -me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station -wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both -of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the -street. And--uh--they were gone before I could---- - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the station wagon head? - -Mr. CRAIG. West on Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Under the triple underpass? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward -the station wagon? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five -eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown -sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been -in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue -trousers---- - -Mr. BELIN. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. - -And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful -hurry. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the man who was driving the car? - -Mr. CRAIG. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He -was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a -thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker -type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came -out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short -jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think -that he was a Negro? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I don't--I didn't get a real good look at him. But my -first glance at him--I was more interested in the man coming down the -hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what your opinion is today? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I--I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough -look at him. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind and what color station wagon was it? - -Mr. CRAIG. It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me. - -Mr. BELIN. What model or make was it? - -Mr. CRAIG. I thought it was a Nash. - -Mr. BELIN. Why would you think it was a Nash? - -Mr. CRAIG. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. -And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that -type luggage rack. - -Mr. BELIN. A Nash Rambler--is that what you're referring to? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you -know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not? - -Mr. CRAIG. It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the -numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle -where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. -But--uh--I'm sure it was a Texas plate. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this incident that you can recall? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; not that---- - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, then--uh, I went back up to the front of the School -Book Depository--rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed -off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the -doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it. - -Mr. BELIN. How long would this have been after the shots were fired? - -Mr. CRAIG. I'd say nearly 20 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. CRAIG. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of -the building. At that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the -building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building. - -So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights -and took them back over to them. - -Then, I went up on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you go up on the sixth floor? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of -the city officers, if I'm not mistaken. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. CRAIG. So, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty -cartridges were found. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found? - -Mr. CRAIG. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on -the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying -on the floor? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I -was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the -southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did -someone yell--or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells." - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the -shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a -bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the -area, I just went back across. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not -mistaken. - -Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that? - -Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper -bag. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long? - -Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of. - -Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you -remember seeing, or not? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells? - -Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the -window---- - -Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south? - -Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the -shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I -recall, about a foot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at -all--or, don't you recall? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there? - -Mr. CRAIG. I saw three. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you -know? - -Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know? - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window? - -Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were -found? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and -we didn't want to stir up anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer -Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city -officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You -know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do after that? - -Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went -to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to -search west. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got -nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone -with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered? - -Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was -standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on -the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you -describe which way the boxes were? - -Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the -weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, -and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda -back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed -kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be -hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off -where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em. - -Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that -the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would -call a rectangular "O", so to speak? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to -speak? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I -looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look -straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Do you remember who else came over? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers; -Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some -of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification -man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take -pictures of the weapon. - -Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found -lying there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that -window before this? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; no. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that -you feel might be important? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got -the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed -there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back -downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from -the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon -up and handed it to Will Fritz. - -And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the -School Building was missing up until the time you left? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect. - -Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of -with regard to the shooting? - -Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting -of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but---- - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; no. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's -Office? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over -there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, -you know. - -Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run -down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't -recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, -when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's -shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were -trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the -assassin. - -So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had -run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked -to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a -description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up -as a suspect. - -And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at -Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do? - -Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 -or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him -what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his -office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair -behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know -him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the -office. - -And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," -it was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium -brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he -was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he -was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was -shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all. - -Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt? - -Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white -T-shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one -side. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the -suspect say? - -Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What -about this station wagon?" - -And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs -to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into -this. She had nothing to do with it." - -And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, -"All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you -leave from the scene." - -And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you -people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he -said, "Everybody will know who I am now." - -And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially -out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain -Fritz. - -Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his -trousers as he leaned over the desk? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of -forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) -forward. - -Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, -"This was the man,"--or words to that effect? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more. - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more? - -Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station -wagon there? - -Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAIG. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the -suspect about this incident before you came, do you? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this -interrogation at which you were present? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and -give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that -was outside the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you -think might be important that we haven't discussed here? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later -that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage -rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to -the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I -believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we -chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this -young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was -taken that we haven't recorded here? - -Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our -conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to -the best of your recollection? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any -of the railroad employees. - -Mr. BELIN. That's right. - -Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your -story was before we sat down to take the deposition? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the -deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want -to sign it? - -Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this -taking of this deposition? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Anything else you can think of, sir? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down -here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your, -also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back -there. - -Mr. CRAIG. Okay. - -Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much. - -One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this -before, but I want to doublecheck it. - -When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he -say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they -were white or colored and he said white. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how -much of them he saw? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the -windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, -5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or -anything like that? - -Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give. - -Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing? - -Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, -but the other man he wasn't sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there -was only one man up there then. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people -in any other windows? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over -the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, -looking out. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on -the sixth floor? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that -particular floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor -down; which would be the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth -floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? -Or don't you remember? - -Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that -floor, or did he say that he did not? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you? - -Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these -two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it? - -Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just -the man with the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 -minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you -say that he told you he saw only one man? - -Mr. CRAIG. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say -about what he saw after that? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over -to Lemmy Lewis. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else -discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he -thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report -it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball -stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd -like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks -familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward -the Rambler. - -If you'll just wait a minute here please sir. - -(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a -shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the -suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running -toward the station wagon? - -Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit -150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing? - -Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a -jacket? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man -running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, -darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what? - -Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but -they looked blue to me. - -Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157? - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color. - -Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when -Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket? - -Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at -Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards -the station wagon? - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact -that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you---- - -Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it -was the same person. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR. - -The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand -and be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, -is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris. - -Mr. BELIN. Texas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama. - -Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth. - -Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to farming? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there. - -Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated -Railroad Co. - -Mr. BELIN. For the what? - -Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a -coordinated deal. - -Mr. BELIN. What are you doing? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers. - -Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to -farming. How long did you farm? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago. - -Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn. - -Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in -spare times for about 8 years. - -Mr. BELIN. For the same place? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas? - -Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it? - -Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the -courthouse. - -Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our -place is. - -Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town. - -Mr. BELIN. Just all over town? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday, -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just -outside, you might say, of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. With whom? - -Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out. - -Mr. BELIN. You had walked out? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming. - -Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to -where I could get a better view, as a fellow says. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot. - -Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And was that---- - -Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or -shots at all? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner -of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block. - -Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that -is? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade? - -Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the -only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something -like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed -that, but I never heard no shots. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from? - -Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the -other side? - -Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do -you remember, offhand? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was -nearing there, I know that. - -Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade -was to be going by there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12. - -Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. O'clock? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Before 12? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot -him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place. - -Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the -place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up? - -Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that. - -Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering -the place? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was -looking up that way at all times. - -Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book -Depository by way of the rear exit? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been -some shooting? - -Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then. - -Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the -south? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they -all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had -happened over there. - -I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the -policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and -the side door with guns. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened -there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for -5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to -the building at all, or just stand there? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk -closer? - -Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or -not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry? - -Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or -expect what was taking place. - -Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if -you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you -can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly -to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either -way. - -Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now. - -Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down -again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go, -assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you -have a right to come in and read it. - -Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go. - -Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it? - -Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all for now. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK - -The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ROMACK. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney -from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on -the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we -asked you to come down to have your deposition taken. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? - -Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack. - -Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack? - -Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you? - -Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Go to school here? - -Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college. - -Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What college? - -Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school? - -Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war. - -Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go---- - -Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out, -and went to East Texas State after the war. - -Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? - -Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took -boot training in San Diego. - -I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor -and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through -the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then -returned back home. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States? - -Mr. ROMACK. March 1946. - -Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where -were you stationed? - -Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We -were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out -eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All -we had was the big ramp. - -Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back? - -Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in -the back. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Went to St. Louis and bought me an automobile, and just I -was a boy. I was the boy about 6 months, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Then I entered school, East Texas State Teachers College. - -Mr. BELIN. You went there about a year? - -Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year, I would say, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? - -Mr. ROMACK. I got married once along the route, and I was married about -30 days. - -Then I came to Dallas in 1947. I guess it was 1947, or 1948, I forget -just when I did come to Dallas. It was along in there. - -Mr. BELIN. And you have been in Dallas ever since? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you honorably discharged? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes; I surely was. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas? - -Mr. ROMACK. I went to work with a motor freight carrier. They are known -as ICX today. They were Miller & Miller Motor Freight at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them? - -Mr. ROMACK. Drove a truck. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that? - -Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Went back to East Texas, and my home, and piddled around -for a short while. - -Then I came back to Dallas. And what did I do along in there? In 1949, -I went to work for the Cotton Belt Railroad. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? - -Mr. ROMACK. Until April, I believe, of 1955. I know it was in 1955. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you generally do when you were with the Cotton Belt? - -Mr. ROMACK. I did all the railroad work during that time. I mean, I -have been a billing clerk, and I have been a foreman, and I have been -checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and I worked out in -the yards, and did quite a few jobs. - -Mr. BELIN. You left them in 1955, and then what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with -him in a service station, Conoco Service Station. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. ROMACK. Stayed there a year, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with Strickland Transportation Co. as a -dock foreman. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you with them? - -Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 6 or 7 months. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with an air freight concern out here at -Love Field Drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking -up air freight for, I would say, 7 or 8 months there, maybe. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co. - -Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today. - -Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them? - -Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail -trucks and pickup and delivery service. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963? - -Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by -east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street? - -Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but -the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it, -which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together -originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind -of walked off ahead of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk? - -Mr. ROMACK. Toward the School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street? - -Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they -are going to split Ross and Houston Street up. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking at at Houston Street? - -Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes, -sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking? - -Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in -October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar -with a rifle shot. - -Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear? - -Mr. ROMACK. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from? - -Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but -it wasn't on my side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low? - -Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that -question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would -say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I -can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it -blowing from your back, sir? - -Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face. - -Mr. BELIN. Into your face. - -How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you -heard the shots? - -Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or -from the front of Elm Street? - -Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together? - -Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4 -seconds apart. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was -closer than another one in time? - -Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They -rang out pretty fast. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you own one? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be -operated with a bolt action rifle? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way? - -Mr. ROMACK. I have a--it is a--I can't answer that really. - -Mr. BELIN. What caliber? - -Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06. - -Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is -either an Enfleld or a Springfield. - -Mr. BELIN. Bolt action? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot -your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots? - -Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot; -no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere -and missed him one time out of four. - -Mr. BELIN. How far was it? - -Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a -distance. - -Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he -was 100 yards away or else 50 yards? - -Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would. - -Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a -person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as -quickly as you heard those rifle sounds? - -Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense -that within my own self. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down -towards the--which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked -down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade -was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a -policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if -somebody was running out of the back of this building. - -Mr. BELIN. What building? - -Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay -but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back. - -Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over -watching the building for the man. - -Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching? - -Mr. ROMACK. The back part. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much -as anyone could see. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back -dock, aren't there? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School -Book Depository? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman -leave? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, -and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building -was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or -anyone. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station? - -Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then? - -Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high--the -city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, -and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post? - -Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what -we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we---- - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then. - -Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time? - -Mr. ROMACK. Pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there? - -Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up -the back. They came in the front, all--most of them. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way? - -Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything -about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here -at the very entrance, and just stood there. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up -from the street to the dock on the north side of the building? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. See anyone else? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad -cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time -that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally I -quit watching anything particular. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you -quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 -minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there, -but I wasn't particularly watching. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you -said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after -the shots, you watched the back door of the building? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave -the building? - -Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter -the building other than a police officer? - -Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway -going to this Houston Street dock? - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX--you are asking prior to before he -got there? - -Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first? - -Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards. - -Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building? - -Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there? - -Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the -building, or 40. That is where he parked his car. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX? - -Mr. ROMACK. Oh. I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my -wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed -again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you do that? - -Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work. - -Mr. BELIN. What month was it? - -Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean March? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March? - -Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in -from work. It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a -paper up in the left-hand corner. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand? - -Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper? - -Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have -been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination -and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with -about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset -me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about? - -Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above -him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he -also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which -was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper -this was on? - -Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was -on the front page in the left corner of the page. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was -it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and -that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was -watching. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was -that someone said that someone else was running? - -Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book -Depository? - -Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them? - -Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I -am telling you right now today. - -Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you -before this morning? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you -came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember -who called me. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell -you to come down here? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to you about the facts that we were -talking about now? - -Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the -Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure. - -Mr. ROMACK. It was. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are -stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building -towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots? - -Mr. ROMACK. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the -first 5 minutes after the shots? - -Mr. ROMACK. That is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that -you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination? - -Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time -to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your -cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact -them for this information. - -Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that--I called an attorney that I know and -talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him -I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just -didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he -felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know. - -And that is when I went ahead and made my statement. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come -back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to -read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading -it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington, -whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us. - -Mr. ROMACK. I will waive. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then? - -Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much. - -Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LEE E. BOWERS, JR. - -The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. - -Mr. BOWERS. Lee E. Bowers, Jr. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? - -Mr. BOWERS. 10508 Maplegrove Lane. - -Mr. BALL. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BOWERS. Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. And would you tell me something about yourself, where you -were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or -occupation? - -Mr. BOWERS. I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of -my life except when I was in the Navy, at the age of 17 to 21, and I -was away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended -Southern Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked -for the railroad 15 years and was a self-employed builder, as well -as--on the side. And the first of this year when I went to work as -business manager for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and -convalescent home and rent properties. - -Mr. BALL. What railroad did you work for? - -Mr. BOWERS. Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating -railroads. - -Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union -Terminal Co.? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing for them? - -Mr. BOWERS. I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal, -operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains. - -Mr. BALL. Through railroad yards? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work? - -Mr. BOWERS. 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground -at which you worked in the tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet. - -Mr. BALL. You worked about 14 feet above the ground? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the tower was arranged so that you could see out? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each -corner. It is windows on all four sides. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. BOWERS. It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, -I really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School -Depository Building, or less. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of -the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm? - -Mr. BOWERS. Approximately the same. - -Mr. BALL. Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under -the triple underpass? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir; considerably. - -Mr. BALL. And the base of your tower is about the same height as the -triple underpass, isn't it? - -Mr. BOWERS. Approximately. - -Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple -underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your -description--you described it as a triple underpass. - -Mr. BOWERS. It is just a local connotation for it since there are three -streets that run under it. - -Mr. BALL. I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your -tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight -tracks. - -Mr. BALL. That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that -pass in front of your tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and -split off to various railroad yards---- - -Mr. BALL. And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower, -aren't they? - -Mr. BOWERS. Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all -directions, I mean, they are both north and south. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you? - -Mr. BOWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. BALL. Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area -around between your tower and Elm Street? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by -police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning -traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around -could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of -years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the -area. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice any cars around there? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time -from around noon until the time of the shooting. - -Mr. BALL. Came in where? - -Mr. BOWERS. They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the -extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, -and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere. - -Mr. BALL. There is parking area behind the School Depository, between -that building and your tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking -area for the employees. - -Mr. BALL. And the first came along that you noticed about what time of -day? - -Mr. BOWERS. I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was -approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off. - -Mr. BALL. And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was -it? - -Mr. BOWERS. The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down -across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to -the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or -was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he -could, the same outlet he came into. - -Mr. BALL. The place where Elm dead ends? - -Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was -the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't -watch him. - -Mr. BALL. What was the description of that car? - -Mr. BOWERS. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station -wagon with out-of-State license. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what State? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I -think, if I looked at a list. - -Mr. BALL. And, it had something else, some bumper stickers? - -Mr. BOWERS. Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, -and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think. - -Mr. BALL. And, did you see another car? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately -12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time -differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black -Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or -something that gave the appearance of that at least. - -Mr. BALL. How could you tell that? - -Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and -he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very -close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have? - -Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license. - -Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street? - -Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the -School Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it -departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than -the first car. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see another car? - -Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven -or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 -Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. -It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to -the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male. - -Mr. BALL. What did it do? - -Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he -circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt -to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and -slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository -Building. - -Mr. BALL. Then did he leave? - -Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just -above the assassination site. - -Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice? - -Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it -pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy. - -Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there? - -Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm -and Houston from the tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could -see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, -then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed -the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again. - -Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street -from Main, did you? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that. - -Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it? - -Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment. - -Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where? - -Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and -Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? - -Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two -very close together. Also reverberation from the shots. - -Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the -sound or what direction it came from, I mean? - -Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School -Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the -tower as to sounds coming from those various places? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 -years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School -Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of -sounds occurring in either of those two locations. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you -heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository -Building or the triple underpass? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not. - -Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in -hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository -Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from -the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago? - -Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a -reverberation which takes place from either location. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass -before? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often. - -Because trucks backfire and various occurrences. - -Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School -Depository when they were building there? - -Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as -sandblasted the outside of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high -ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the -underpass toward the mouth of the underpass? - -Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, -there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly -heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, -about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. - -Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately? - -Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and -gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew. - -Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing? - -Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, -and following the caravan as it came down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass? - -Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One -facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad -employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two -welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also -a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders. - -Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those -people? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after. - -Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston -Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground? - -Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this -same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates -a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those -custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a -slight distance back. - -Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking? - -Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly -towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my -recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative -masonry wall in the area. - -Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see -the car? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think -that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last -shot. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after -the shot? - -Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some -commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman -who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline. - -Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street? - -Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some -reason, which I did not know. - -Mr. BALL. He came up---- - -Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his -motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. How did he get up? - -Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there? - -Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the -motorcycle. - -Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people? - -Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and -where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this. - -Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time? - -Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not -say. - -The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The -one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was. - -Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by -that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the -commotion? - -Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something -out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred -in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted -my eye for some reason, which I could not identify. - -Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it? - -Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---- - -Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high -ground at the tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction. -One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came -down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another -line--another large group went across the triangular area between -Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of -them all the way up. - -Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred -policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower? - -Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the -trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients -taken on at least one train. - -Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your -deposition was taken, haven't we? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you -about that you think of? - -Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall. - -Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you? - -Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have -told the city police, and also told to the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the -deposition? - -Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, -look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. - -What do you wish? - -Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to. - -Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature? - -Mr. BOWERS. Fine. - -Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN - -The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MARTIN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please? - -Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? - -Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer. - -Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department? - -Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and -where you were raised and where you went to school? - -Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to -school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from -there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for -approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in -the Police Department in June 1953. - -Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and -worked in the radio patrol division. - -Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President -Kennedy. - -Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning -and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30 -minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field. - -Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position? - -Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of -President Kennedy. - -Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer -riding with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis. - -Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were---- - -Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about -the speed of the President's car? - -Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made -the turn onto Elm Street from Houston. - -Mr. BALL. From Houston? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the -same speed? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would -say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour. - -Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade -slow down? - -Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed -of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour. - -Mr. BALL. What was your speed? - -Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler -motorcycle? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the -position of that motorcycle? - -Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine. - -Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of -Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there. - -Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow? - -Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough -that I could notice. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to -be a shot. - -Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with -reference to the President's car? - -Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car. - -Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and -then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position? - -Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and -approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear. - -Mr. BALL. Of the President's car? - -Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car. - -Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service -car? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because -one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I -can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on -the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, -and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car. - -Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with -reference to your right or to your left? - -Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he? - -Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing -him after the shots. - -Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you -would have? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot -closer than I was. - -Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from -each other? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that. - -Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the -direction which the shot was coming from? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it -was coming--any of the shots. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right. - -Mr. BALL. After which shot? - -Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot. - -Mr. BALL. You looked to your right? - -Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right. - -Mr. BALL. What did you look at? - -Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle -also, or did you turn your body? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever -turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west -on Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot -and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At -the time he had no expression on his face. - -Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository -Building? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building. - -Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any -opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last -two shots--from which direction they came? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was. - -Mr. BALL. From what direction? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that -particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind -as we turned off of Houston onto Elm. - -Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then? - -Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston? - -Mr. BALL. No; after the shots? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of -the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the -pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room -to ride in there. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see the President? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first -shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do? - -Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. -The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of -the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the -first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the -emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway -down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of -people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to -park cars and just generally work traffic around there. - -Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I -noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and -then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on -the left side of my helmet. - -Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could -you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of -my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had -spots of blood on it. - -Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the -helmet there besides blood? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of -flesh. - -Mr. BALL. What about your uniform? - -Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my -uniform. - -Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the -clavicle region? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side. - -Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what spots were there? - -Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield? - -Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also -on the motor. - -Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches? - -Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was -not very noticeable unless you looked at it. - -Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other -people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed -it. - -Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with -us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting. - -Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the -windshield of his motorcycle? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your -windshield? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. - -Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. - -Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the -cowling on the motorcycle. - -Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought -it was rifle fire? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it. - -Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose? - -Mr. MARTIN. I just returned. - -Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car -was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car -when you heard the first shot? - -Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10 -at that particular time, about the time of the shots. - -Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble -keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and -10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in -the motorcade? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the -car you were to keep? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were those instructions? - -Mr. MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past -the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear -of his car, about the rear bumper. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Officer. - -This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you -wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the -Commission without it. - -It's your option. - -What would you like to do? - -Mr. MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as I saw it -that day. - -Mr. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then? - -Mr. MARTIN. That would be fine. - -Mr. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature. - -Mr. MARTIN. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. - -Mr. MARTIN. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS - -The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. STERN. Will you stand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HARGIS. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence -address. - -Mr. HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HARGIS. Police officer. - -Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months. - -Mr. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle---- - -Mr. HARGIS. Division. - -Mr. STERN. Division? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22d? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I was. - -Mr. STERN. In what position? - -Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine. - -Mr. STERN. At what part of the President's car? - -Mr. HARGIS. Well---- - -Mr. STERN. Front, or rear? - -Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear. - -Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy? - -Mr. HARGIS. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the -limousine turned into Elm Street? - -Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm -Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on -Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but -the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I -was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time -the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was -sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised -expression on his face. - -Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally's? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot -first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what -he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, -the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up -like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know -whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so -fast. - -Mr. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots? - -Mr. HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, -everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 -more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. - -Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with -the shot you have just described? - -Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the -car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed -like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and -kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the -Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or -"get going,"---- - -Mr. STERN. Someone inside---- - -Mr. HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I -remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear -and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of -the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential -limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to -the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. - -Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time -regarding the source of the shots? - -Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next -to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were -coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said -that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, -because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just -a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. -Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been -from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary -place that could have been shot from. - -Mr. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots. - -Mr. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your -motorcycle? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh---- - -Mr. STERN. Where? - -Mr. HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side -of Elm Street. - -Mr. STERN. And then what did you do? - -Mr. HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad -overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then -I looked---- - -Mr. STERN. People on the overpass? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess. -They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd. -I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening -or what--and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository -Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building -was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew -where the shots were coming from, so---- - -Mr. STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm -Street? Do you recall their behavior? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground -and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, -trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as -to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was. - -Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this -kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a -better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around -that place by that time. I knew it couldn't have come from the county -courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over -there. - -Mr. STERN. Did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the -overpass to the concrete wall? - -Mr. HARGIS. No. - -Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street? - -Mr. HARGIS. No, no; I don't remember any picket fence. - -Mr. STERN. Did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the -incline, or around the Depository? Anything out of the ordinary besides -people running? - -Mr. HARGIS. No; I didn't. That is what got me. - -Mr. STERN. So, at that point you were still uncertain as to the -direction of the shots? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. STERN. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. HARGIS. Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas -Book Depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, -didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were -looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. At the -time I didn't know, but about the only activity I could see was on the -bridge, on the railroad bridge so---- - -Mr. STERN. What sort of activity was that? - -Mr. HARGIS. Well, the people that were up there were just trying to get -a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or -in a confused fashion, and I thought maybe some of them had seen who -did the shooting and the rifle. - -Mr. STERN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, -and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side -in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and -since I didn't see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the -second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway and went up around to -see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that -way, and I couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, -so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it -seemed like the activity was centered around the Texas School Book -Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants -or lieutenants, I don't know, "Don't let anyone out of the Texas School -Book Depository," and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, -which was at the southwest corner. - -Mr. STERN. And you remained there until you were relieved? - -Mr. HARGIS. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Anything else that you haven't told us that you think is -relevant to our inquiry? - -Mr. HARGIS. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. - -The reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for -you to read and sign if you care to. Otherwise, you may waive your -right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to -the Commission, whichever you prefer. It is entirely your option. - -Mr. HARGIS. Well; it really doesn't make any difference. It is more or -less what you all think is best. - -Mr. STERN. It's entirely up to you. - -Mr. HARGIS. Well, how long will it be until she fixes it up? - -Mr. STERN. Well, off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. On the record. - -Mr. HARGIS. All right. Well, just go ahead and I will just let you go -ahead and send it in without the signature. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD - -Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Thirty-two. - -Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Finished high school. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into the service. - -Mr. BELIN. What branch? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Air Force. - -Mr. BELIN. How long? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Four years to the day. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have an honorable discharge? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. What year was that? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. 1955. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own. - -Mr. BELIN. Then went back to the department? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential -motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Went through town with him? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car. - -Mr. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many -cars back. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M. L. Baker was riding? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me. - -Mr. BELIN. So you would be riding several cars back, generally, from -the President's car, is that correct? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was one more close than the other one? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, -it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real -close. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the -scene of the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. There on Main Street. - -Mr. BELIN. On Main Street? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. What position of Elm Street? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street. - -Mr. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where -you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on -Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm -Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. -Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple -of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump -the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get -over. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad -yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north -or south of Elm? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the--it consist of -going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in -the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle--it -was on the street--to the radio. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I -presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was. - -Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm -Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me -as to the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. What did they say? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. One stated that he had seen the President when the first -shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he -stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first -shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was -fired, he went completely out of sight. - -Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the -time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple -underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and -said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did -have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just -to the right of his nose. - -Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the -Presidential car at the time of the shot? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back. - -Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of -the President's car at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west. - -Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to -him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't -know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from -this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book -Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say why? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. He said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and -there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, -but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was -definite that the shots did come from there. - -And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that -complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that -time, I called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas -School Book Depository Building off. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the -dispatcher that day? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142. - -Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to -be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., -there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were -fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz -Rent A Car sign on top." - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words. - -Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information -you can." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository -Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front -of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were -talked to. - -Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no. - -Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to them at all? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear -location of it, which would be---- - -Mr. BELIN. To the back door? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was -standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he -said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. - -And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they -had not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at -the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, -and helped them search the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was -still on the sixth when they found the rifle--on the fifth. - -Mr. BELIN. On the fifth? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry. - -Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the -floor there, though. It was just a big open floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like -that? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Which window? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. South side or east side? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south. - -Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a -lunch bag. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was that? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle. - -Mr. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half -or more long? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. What, tape? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown -paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up. - -Mr. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately -rifle length. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east -or west of the window, if you remember? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the -southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the -southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that -corner, if you remember? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast -corner. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the -window? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the -corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a -corner. - -Mr. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner -[indicating in room]? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of -the window from the corner. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Not under the window? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast -corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. That is all. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the--when you heard a rifle -had been found? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. On the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to -that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other -one where the shells was found. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be -on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant -wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle -was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while -after that. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went -downstairs to the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. On Saturday I was on my way to Colorado. - -Mr. BELIN. So you weren't around on Sunday either? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. On Sunday when the other shooting was taking place, I -was knee deep in snow in Colorado. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, whether -I have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the -assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No, nothing; I was out of town. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. We thank you very much for your cooperation -here. You have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this -deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive -the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it -directly to us, whatever you want to do? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. It makes no difference. - -Mr. BELIN. It makes no difference to us either. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Just waive the signing. I don't know when I can get back -over here. - -(Officer Haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the -street at the Republic National Bank Building to answer the following -question.) - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Haygood, I will continue your deposition with one -more question, if you would, and you are still under oath. - -You mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two -people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at -12:35 p.m., under your Call No. 142. - -Is that correct? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice on there another transmission at 12:37 p.m. Could -you read what the transcript has there. - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, this part of the deposition I covered it a while -ago but I gave you, is when I called to have the Texas School Book -Depository covered there. That is one of the witnesses I had that -believed the shot came from that location. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you said there? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. It says, "Get men to cover the building, Texas School Book -Depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on Elm Street -looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in -the upper right hand corner." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you say that? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then the transmission made to you, 531 to 142 calling, "How -many do you have there?" - -And you made a response which is? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. "One guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and -another seen the President slump." - -Mr. BELIN. Were there two more people in addition to the one that you -saw? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. They are still the same people I was referring to back on -the transmission that I made. - -Mr. BELIN. How many different people did you talk to? One that was -possibly hit by a ricochet? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Piece of concrete. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he the one that saw the President slump? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there someone that saw the President slump, and a -third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper -right-hand corner? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall how many it was. There was quite a chaos -there at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if there were two or more than two? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the description of the man -that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the -upper right-hand corner? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was white or Negro? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. He was a white man. - -Mr. BELIN. Man or woman? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Man. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was young or medium or old? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. That would be a guess on my part. I don't recall. He was -just a medium age. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit? - -Mr. HAYGOOD. Best I remember, just sports clothes. I mean, it consisted -of no tie or coat. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay, thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF E. D. BREWER - -The testimony of E. D. Brewer was taken at 10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BREWER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name. - -Mr. BREWER. E. D. Brewer. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brewer? - -Mr. BREWER. Police officer for the City of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. BREWER. I am 32 years old. - -Mr. BELIN. You go to school here in Dallas? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. BREWER. I graduated from high school. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I got married and went to work for the Dallas Power & -Light. About a year later I went into the U.S. Coast Guard and stayed 3 -years. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I went to work for the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them about 10 years now? - -Mr. BREWER. Since December 1954. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? - -Mr. BREWER. I was riding solo motorcycle, in the Presidential motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. What position were you in in the motorcade? - -Mr. BREWER. I was in the front. - -Mr. BELIN. By which car? Near which car? - -Mr. BREWER. If I remember correctly, the President's car was about--the -Chief of Police was in a car immediately in front. The President's car -was behind him, I believe, if I remember correctly, and I was in front -of the Chief's car. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in front of the Chief's car? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in the lead part of the motorcade? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was the front vehicle. There was four or five of us -up there in a line across the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how fast you were going as you went down -Main Street there towards Houston? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir; not exactly. The speed of it would vary -considerably according to the crowd of people on each side of the -street as to how we could get through. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you remember how fast you were going as you turned north -on Houston? - -Mr. BREWER. It was in my assignment to leave my position there and go -ahead of the motorcade as we were approaching Houston on Main Street, -and before we got to Houston Street I left. I pulled out ahead of them, -and following the same route, went down to the intersection or to where -the motorcade was to come onto Stemmons Freeway. - -Mr. BELIN. So your speed wasn't necessarily accurate with the -motorcade, is that correct, sometimes? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I had pulled away from the motorcade on Main -Street and proceeded on down to the Stemmons Freeway. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot? - -Mr. BREWER. I never did hear any shots. - -Mr. BELIN. When was the first time you learned that something was wrong? - -Mr. BREWER. I was on Stemmons Freeway there where you come onto it, -where the motorcade come onto Stemmons. Went under Stemmons and around -to the right and onto Stemmons, and I was on Stemmons Expressway off of -my motorcycle there on the expressway when I believe I heard it on the -radio first about the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you to stop traffic on the expressway? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was to assist some other officers in stopping -traffic on the expressway to allow the motorcade to get onto it. - -Mr. BELIN. So you were in the process of stopping traffic, waiting for -the motorcade to come by, when you heard something on your motorcycle -radio? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the so-called underpass there, or -overpass there? - -Mr. BREWER. I was to the north of where the railroad track goes over. -Let's see, the railroad track, where the railroad tracks go over -Stemmons Expressway. I was to the north of that. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me try and get a sketch. Officer, I just stepped out of -the room to come back in and bring a map of Dallas, which I believe -is similar to Commission's Exhibit 371, which I am going to mark here -Deposition Exhibit A, which we will call it E. D. Brewer deposition -Exhibit A. I have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of -Dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, -Downtown Dallas, and this is towards the top of the reverse side of the -map. - -I am going to ask you to look at this map. You see the place here, it -looks like Dedley Plaza, Main Street runs into that, which is Houston, -then you turned north on Houston and Elm, and then you take Elm? - -Mr. BREWER. Left on Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. Left on Elm. You went under the railroad underpass there, -which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then I am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point -pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. Just mark it -parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up. - -Mr. BREWER. (Marks on map.) - -Down Elm under the railroad tracks to Stemmons, under Stemmons to the -right, headed north parallel to Stemmons on that entranceway, under -that T & P Railroad, and onto Stemmons Expressway, and just north of -the T & P Railroad. - -Mr. BELIN. Now is that where you stopped your motorcycle? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to put an arrow pointing to the spot that you -stopped, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, that is the spot right there. - -Mr. BELIN. You have it marked kind of with an "X"? - -Mr. BREWER. To the best of my knowledge, that is right where we was at. - -Mr. BELIN. Was another officer there at the time when you got there? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What were they doing? - -Mr. BREWER. We all proceeded to stop the traffic northbound on Stemmons. - -Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to do that? - -Mr. BREWER. So that the motorcade which was headed in that direction at -that time could get onto Stemmons and wouldn't be interfered with by -the rest of the traffic. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you when you first learned of the -shooting or that something was wrong? - -Mr. BREWER. At that location. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you learn about it? - -Mr. BREWER. I believe it was on the radio, we heard it. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. On the police radio. Well, when it was determined -that--right after we heard that on the radio, something about it on -the radio, we heard that they were enroute to Parkland Hospital, -and immediately after that they came by us and came onto Stemmons -Expressway and went by us in the direction of Parkland Hospital, the -motorcade, part of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. We heard that the shots had came from the Texas School -Book Depository Building, and at that time I got on my motorcycle and -proceeded back up to the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I went in the building. - -Mr. BELIN. You went inside the building? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; there was officers all around the building at the -time I got there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got in the building? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, with some other officers, we was part of the officers -that was searching the building floor by floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what was your call number that day? - -Mr. BREWER. 137. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit -A, which appears to be a transcript of a police log of the Dallas -Police Department, you see this exhibit here? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Your call number that day was? - -Mr. BREWER. 137. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice here that the first time there appears Call No. -137, after 12:30 is at 12:38 p.m. - -There is a call from 137 to 531. You want to read what it says there? - -Mr. BREWER. "A witness says he saw 'em pull the weapon from the -window off the second floor on the southeast corner of the Depository -Building." - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have been the second floor or the second floor -from the top? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any witness talking to you at all? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said? - -Mr. BREWER. He said that he had saw him pull a weapon from the window -from that building. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what window he said? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't remember specifically which window he indicated, -but I immediately told that to the dispatcher and proceeded on up to -the building. - -Mr. BELIN. I see the conversation continues on the next page. The -dispatcher No. 531, to 137, "Do you have the building covered off?" - -And then you reply: - -Mr. BREWER. "I'm about three-fourths of a block away." - -Mr. BELIN. Is that where you were when this man---- - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now from the time you first heard that something was wrong, -you had taken your motorcycle and gone where? - -Mr. BREWER. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. You were on the Stemmons Freeway when you heard that -something was wrong, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went from Stemmons Freeway where? - -Mr. BREWER. Up to the Texas School Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stop anywhere along the way? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir; the only time that I stopped was when this guy -come up to me and told it to me, and then was gone. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you did stop then and talk to this one individual? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Which street were you on when you stopped? - -Mr. BREWER. I was proceeding back up Elm Street the wrong way on Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. About where were you when this one person talked that said -he saw him pull the weapon in? - -Mr. BREWER. I was down there about the triple underpass on Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean right under the triple underpass? - -Mr. BREWER. Or coming to it. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, coming to it? - -Mr. BREWER. From the west. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you have been on the west side of that? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, right there about that curb. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you left Stemmons Freeway, did you look up or around -to see if there was anything suspicious in that area? - -Mr. BREWER. We was all looking up in the railroad tracks from the west -side. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything at all? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir; we saw some people coming up there, but they -seemed to be up there looking. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you saw people up there searching? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running away? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. See anyone acting suspiciously by himself? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you left that area and came right down the wrong way, -you say, back to retrace your route, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then somewhere in the vicinity of the railroad underpass, -you were stopped by this one individual that you reported on the radio -log, is that correct? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether this man that you talked to was a -white male or a Negro? - -Mr. BREWER. He was a white man, the best of my memory. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else about him? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have any camera or anything? - -Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Now after this order to report to the School Book Depository -Building, what did you do? - -Mr. BREWER. I went there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. BREWER. Went in the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Which door? - -Mr. BREWER. By the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off by the time you got there? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were officers blocking everyone that was coming in, to -prohibit them from coming in and going out? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. BREWER. I went inside the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. BREWER. I proceeded to assist in the floor to floor search of the -building with some other officers. - -Mr. BELIN. What floor did you start on? - -Mr. BREWER. On the bottom floor. - -Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far up did you go? - -Mr. BREWER. We searched all of it before we quit. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, were you ever on the 6th floor? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on the sixth floor when you found anything there? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you find? - -Mr. BREWER. I was on the sixth floor when they found those spent cases -from the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when they found them? - -Mr. BREWER. I don't know exactly. I was on the floor searching around -in among some boxes that were stacked up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Hear anyone say anything about cartridge cases or anything? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. Whoever found them turned around and let it be -known to one of the supervisor officers that he had found them, or that -they had been found over there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard the news? - -Mr. BREWER. I continued searching. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see? - -Mr. BREWER. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were they? - -Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window. - -Mr. BELIN. What window? - -Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south. - -Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window? - -Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten -piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BREWER. A drink bottle. - -Mr. BELIN. What bottle? - -Mr. BREWER. A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BREWER. In relation to what? - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner? - -Mr. BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was that? - -Mr. BREWER. It was there in the southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Under the window? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. To the left of it. To the east of it. - -Mr. BELIN. To the left as you faced the window? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the window come right up next to the corner there, do -you remember? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir; it didn't come up next to the corner. It was -offset. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you remember how far at all, or not? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir; I don't remember the exact distance of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was any part of the paper sack under the window, if you -remember or not? - -That long paper sack? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about what the sack looked like? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, it was assumed at the time that it was the sack that -the rifle was wrapped up in when it was brought into the building, and -it appeared that it could have been used for that. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you mean you assumed that before you found the rifle? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I suppose. That was discussed. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that was found around there or -not? - -Mr. BREWER. Not in that particular area. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything found anywhere else in the sixth floor? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. The rifle was found on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was that? - -Mr. BREWER. It was found in a northwest corner under some, in between -some boxes that were stacked up there at the head of the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far away from the area were you when you found the -rifle, if you remember? - -Mr. BREWER. Several feet from it. I don't remember exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the rifle? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was it located? - -Mr. BREWER. It was laying down low on the door or on the floor down -between some, a very narrow space where boxes were stacked up there, -and there was a space between the boxes, and it was laying down there -in between it, like it had been stuck in there hurriedly, and possibly -just before whoever laid it there went down the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you found of significance in the building at -all or not? - -Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do the rest of the afternoon? - -Mr. BREWER. Well, we proceeded to search the building after that, -and we spent, I don't know the exact amount of time we spent in the -building after that, but when Lieutenant Jack Revill was satisfied, we -went back downstairs and I went back out to my motorcycle and to my -immediate superior officer and received another assignment. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the -assassination that day? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sunday? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. My primary job was traffic control. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of -Officer Tippit's murder? - -Mr. BREWER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might in any -way be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting -of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. BREWER. Not that I can think of; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, I want to thank you very much for coming on down here. - -You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read the -deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and -have it sent directly to Washington, whichever you prefer. - -Mr. BREWER. It don't matter. Whichever you prefer. - -Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. - -Mr. BREWER. Okay, you send it on. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive the signing of it? - -Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF D. V. HARKNESS - -The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Your name, sir, would you please state? - -Mr. HARKNESS. D. V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. HARKNESS. 2123 San Pablo. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Sergeant of police. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Little over 17 years. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Forty-two. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. HARKNESS. High school. - -Mr. BELIN. High school graduate? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Went in the service for 4 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Army? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Coast Guard. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Coast Guard generally? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged. - -Mr. BELIN. Doing what? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my -discharge. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co. - -Mr. BELIN. As what? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Worked in the office in the purchasing department. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Went with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. Been there ever since? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Doing what? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field -along the parade route to Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.? - -Mr. HARKNESS. At Main and Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. On the east or west side of Houston? - -Mr. HARKNESS. West side of Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade come by? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know -what they call this area here. - -Mr. BELIN. Plaza. - -Mr. HARKNESS. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President -as he went west on Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard those noises? Did you know -they were shots, by the way? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow -down to almost a stop---- - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that? - -Mr. HARKNESS. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car -almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went -back to the intersection to get my motorcycle. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the -second and third shots? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings -down there. I couldn't tell. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the reverberations? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I went west on Main to observe the area between the -railroad tracks and Industrial. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you go down there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. By the way the people, when I went into this area, -everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that -the shots were coming into the cars. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean from some point in front of the cars? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that someone was? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did that person do that indicated that? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone -fleeing that area. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the -Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the -street from Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Again, I will have to--near the railroad track. - -Mr. BELIN. Behind the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down. - -Mr. BELIN. What you are really saying---- - -Mr. HARKNESS. This area. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a place between what would be the -extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual -extension of Elm? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; to the plaza area. - -Mr. BELIN. The plaza area? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you find there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he -saw the shots come from that building. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those -little pocket notebooks? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original -notation that you made? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you make that notation? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Immediately after the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that your own record that you have kept in your -possession since then? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. I turned---- - -Mr. BELIN. You turned what? - -Mr. HARKNESS. After I took his name and address and put this -information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel -motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, -and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit -A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you -were using on that day? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I believe 260. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at -12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What does it say there on that transcript? - -Mr. HARKNESS. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book -Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are -sealing off the building." - -Mr. BELIN. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off at that time? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around -it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not. - -Mr. BELIN. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Asked for a squad. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you after that to have the back part -sealed off? - -Mr. HARKNESS. The squad was arriving by the time I got off my -motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route. - -Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was -sealed off? - -Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two -other men. - -Mr. BELIN. You are talking about the back part of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the front part of the building? When was that -sealed off? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there. - -Mr. BELIN. By the time you got around to the front part of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I -went immediately to the back. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, as I understand the sequence, you first went -to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You tell me what happened then. - -Mr. HARKNESS. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this -witness. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. HARKNESS. So I took him to the car. - -Mr. BELIN. To Inspector Sawyer's car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front. - -Mr. BELIN. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. HARKNESS. And left the witness there and went around to the back. - -Mr. BELIN. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after -you left the witness in the car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in -the process of going to the car there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at -the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did -you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Well---- - -Mr. BELIN. The witness in the car, what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved -by a squad. - -Mr. BELIN. So you then went to the back of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him -there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he at his car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building -yet? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you don't know? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he -was standing there in front taking information. All the information was -being funneled to Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you had a witness? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In his car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you -told him that? - -Mr. HARKNESS. At that time? - -Mr. BELIN. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that -said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had -the front part of the building been sealed off yet? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It had already been sealed off? - -Mr. HARKNESS. There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they stopping people from going in and out? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and -talk to them. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out -of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the -building to make sure it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't -notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did -you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that -time? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people -around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I -couldn't say that. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went around to the back of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anyone around in the back when you got there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get -them identified. They told me they were Secret Service. - -Mr. BELIN. Then did you stay around the back of the building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer--helped to -get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some -freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search -all freight cars that were leaving the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we -pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean some transients? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes. - -Mr. BELIN. That were on the freight car? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long -freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. - -We had several officers working in that area. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious -people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. - -Mr. BELIN. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were all those questioned? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned. - -Mr. BELIN. Any guns of any kind found? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what -he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and -asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was -an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw -the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did he say? - -Mr. HARKNESS. He told me that the shots came from the window under the -ledge. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Of the School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Now have you since gone back to that building? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where the ledge is? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million -times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge -would be? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Well---- - -Mr. BELIN. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you -do know, I would like to have you state. - -Mr. HARKNESS. I believe that it---- - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Between what floors is the ledge? - -Mr. HARKNESS. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth -floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from -the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor? - -Mr. HARKNESS. He said it was from the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What were the exact words of the witness? - -Mr. HARKNESS. The exact words of the witness "It was under the ledge," -which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count -of the floors. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor -that he saw it on? - -On the floor under the ledge? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it -would be the last window on the east side of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the -last window from where he was standing? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point -it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of -the building facing Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of -Elm when you talked to this witness? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I was. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were -you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the -Parkway there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Elm as it goes under the Parkway--was between Elm where -it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in -that park area. - -Mr. BELIN. So that is where you were standing? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, -but south of the extension of Elm? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Where that building is, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository -Building at that time? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That -would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct? - -Mr. HARKNESS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember this witness said? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle? - -Mr. HARKNESS. He couldn't tell. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you -recorded in your little book there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland. - -Mr. BELIN. Arnold Rowland? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say? - -Mr. HARKNESS. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He -didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle -walking around up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in -any way be relevant to this investigation? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, -between Elm and Main. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday -that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry? - -Mr. HARKNESS. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed -Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on -the President's Commission? - -Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. But you did see Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way -relevant here? - -Mr. HARKNESS. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to -Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald -had been shot. - -When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police -Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the -county jail the day before, which was a Saturday. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HARKNESS. That is all. - -Mr. BELIN. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; not afterwards. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know Ruby at all, or not? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had -seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is -all. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have -asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation -of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I -heard over the radio. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he -saw at the window was a white man or Negro? - -Mr. HARKNESS. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. -That is what he told me. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man? - -Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any -information out of him, enough to put out a description on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and -testifying. - -You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your -deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and -signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us -directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us -know. - -Mr. HARKNESS. I have no preference. I just hope I have been able to -help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give -directions, especially when you try to convince. - -Mr. BELIN. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have -a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly -to us, whatever you want to do. - -Mr. HARKNESS. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference. - -Mr. BELIN. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want -to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing -it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct? - -Mr. HARKNESS. What has most of them been doing? - -Mr. BELIN. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what -most have been doing, sir. - -Mr. HARKNESS. I will just waive. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF J. HERBERT SAWYER - -The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SAWYER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department? - -Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department? - -Mr. SAWYER. 23 years. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around -1941 or so? - -Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941? - -Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service? - -Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. Policeman. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the -police force then? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was -immediately prior to coming to the police department. - -Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a -grocery store. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then -I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. - -And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit -manager. - -Mr. BELIN. And then after that? - -Mr. SAWYER. Then to the Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except -for this time in the Navy? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. SAWYER. 47. - -Mr. BELIN. You are married? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time? - -Mr. SAWYER. I was. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? -Just what were your duties? - -Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard -to Harwood. - -Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade -passed? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and -completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to -get back in the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection -of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main -Street on Ervay. - -It run parallel to Main Street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade -passed then? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the -crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed -west on Main Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street? - -Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I -got in. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main -Street? - -Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people -crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of -activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? - -Who broadcast it? - -Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the -dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas -School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the -conversation. That is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas -School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was -mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember? - -Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, -or not, in your police number system? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I -think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's -car? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it -was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could -recognize his voice, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car? - -Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there? - -Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into--well, talked to some of the officers -around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots -had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth -floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were -directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a -shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. - -And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in -the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, -and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other -man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about -the fifth floor. - -And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see -anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the -front door? - -Mr. SAWYER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the -elevator as you walked in the front door? - -Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. - -Mr. BELIN. To the right? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? - -Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top -floor. - -Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? - -Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there -into a warehouse area? - -Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage -area? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area -there? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with -people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. - -Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, -so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the -building. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you -mean by that? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then -posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let -anyone in or out. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be -sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were -already covered. - -Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the -building? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were -officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been -done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody -in or out. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let -anyone in or out? - -Mr. SAWYER. I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came -down from the fourth floor or top floor? - -Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. - -Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were -driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off -the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building, -or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you -heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio? - -Mr. SAWYER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of -November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you -have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, -and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call -this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio -log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but -right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned. - -You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are -near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station -Break," is that right? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is -Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that? - -Mr. SAWYER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made--you -might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, -Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, -see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand -by." - -You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-1," which is marked in by -someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time -to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." - -Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home -station, is that correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -I really didn't quite understand all of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move -all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard -and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until -homicide and other investigators can get in there." - -Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there. - -Mr. BELIN. That is Decker? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said? - -Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-1, and they are talking to 1. They -have that confused. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car? - -Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice -here, and that is what he had to say. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----" - -Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriff's Office. - -Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into -the railroad yard----" - -And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station -5? - -Mr. SAWYER. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, -"It looks like the President has been hit." - -Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots -might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from -officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots -came from Texas School Book Depository Building. - -This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book -Depository, is that correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the -Texas School Book Depository building? - -Mr. SAWYER. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at -least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? - -Mr. SAWYER. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, -you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? - -Mr. SAWYER. Officers. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? - -Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the -fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the -source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas -School Book Depository, at that particular time? - -Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a -reference also made to the overpass. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything -else to add? - -Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about -the railroad yard. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or -what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad -yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that -correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe -Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or -did you have to wait for it to come down? - -Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. - -Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. - -How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took -you to? - -Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was -nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the -most. - -Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? - -Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it -couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, -got up and back down. - -Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you -heard the call at 12:34? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the -building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front -door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. - -Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off -the building, that you know of? - -Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building -sealed off. There were officers all around the building. - -To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed -on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk -in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no -instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. - -Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop -traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the -building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that -were there? - -Even before you instructed them? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, -and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the -sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people -standing out on the area of the steps, were there not? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been -stopped? - -Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then -what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were -bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw -that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these -people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take -this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were -standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his -name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered -the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he -said, for interrogating these people. - -Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School -Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of -officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses -and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. - -They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get -away. - -And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the -Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits. - -Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this -period of time that you talked to? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I -would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with -information of one kind or another. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do -you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come -in? What number did you use? - -Mr. SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come -in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right? - -Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30? - -Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true. - -Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the -next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, -as No. 9, called in, is that correct? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there? - -Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book -Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them -up and bring them down here." - -Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the -elevator? - -Mr. SAWYER. That was after. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the -front door and not let anyone in or out? - -Mr. SAWYER. That was after. - -Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time? - -Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say then? - -Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about -30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of -Winchester." - -Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a -rifle?" - -Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle." - -Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?" - -Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that." - -Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and -after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was -broadcast and no further information at this time." - -Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast? - -Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means. - -Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log--I don't see anything more -under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone -as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. -I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that -department. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that -depository? - -Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and -he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. -He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there. - -Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description -on him. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that? - -Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the -information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't -know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over -taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over -from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this -colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the -Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or -he was missing from the building. - -He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some -information about the man that did the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you -know at that time who did the shooting? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was? - -Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it. - -Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m. - -Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript? - -Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have. - -Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him -down. - -We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two -channels there. - -Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B. - -I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your -No. 9. You want to read it? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -"From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown -if he was there in the first place." - -Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have -received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that -building." - -That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.? - -Mr. SAWYER. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number -appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? - -Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and -from all indications the man had been there for some time." - -Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else? - -Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building. - -Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or -at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. -It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A. - -Mr. SAWYER. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called -out another description? - -Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left -out of this. I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must -have been after 1:53. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out -of this man? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that -description from? - -Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man? - -Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's -Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43. - -Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who -claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of -the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name? - -Mr. SAWYER. I do not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing? - -Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I -remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't -old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember -about him. - -Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young? - -Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could -be a few years either way. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you -remember anything about him? - -Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about -that. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw -the person with the rifle? - -Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best -of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But -there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. -I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office. - -Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person -who you say gave you the primary description? - -Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to -the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the -police station? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again? - -Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had -some information with regard to where the shots may have come from? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people. - -Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other -people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part -of a rifle---- - -Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the -upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I -thought was the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? - -Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? - -Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the -southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary -description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? - -Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be -the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth -floor. - -Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor? - -Mr. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What side of the building? - -Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you -who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other -than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to -anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than -a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots -on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than -their sense of sight? - -In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw? - -Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they -had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass. - -Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots -over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots -came from? - -Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say -they heard some from other places? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the -overpass, or thought they heard them from that area. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from? - -Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the -Texas Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they -heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a -rifle there? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there? - -Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the -Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that -might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than -what you have told thus far? - -Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said -there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had -taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came -to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said -that there was on the building immediately west--east, I am sorry--east -of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper -windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is? - -Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the -man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the -Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant -and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his -pictures to me. - -When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service -was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was -talking to this man. - -So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since -Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part -would be taken care of. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it -was? - -Mr. SAWYER. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives -saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had -previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and -sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it? - -Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to -talk to him or take any information. - -I just sent him on down there. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building -there? - -Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there -to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to -do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder? - -Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back -down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday? - -Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other -thing until way late in the afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, -whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here? - -Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, -was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a -dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that. - -Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, -whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here? - -Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down -here. - -You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, -to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the -reading of it and have it sent to us directly. - -It doesn't make a bit of difference to us. - -Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me. - -I would like to read it. - -Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be -sent to us. - -Mr. SAWYER. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE - -The testimony of Gerald Dalton Henslee was taken at 4 p.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, -please, to be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name. - -Mr. HENSLEE. Gerald Dalton Henslee. - -Mr. BELIN. Your occupation? - -Mr. HENSLEE. A police officer. - -Mr. BELIN. For what police department? - -Mr. HENSLEE. City of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? - -Mr. HENSLEE. 16 years. - -Mr. BELIN. You are a sergeant now? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Sergeant. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do before you became a police officer? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I was a student in SMU. - -Mr. BELIN. At SMU? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I was a dance instructor at the Arthur Murray Dance Studio. - -Mr. BELIN. And prior to that? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I was in the United States Army. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge, sir? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. HENSLEE. 40. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, what were your duties on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the -Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you just describe your duties there as to what they -included? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the -channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police -dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of -the President of the United States, President Kennedy. - -Mr. BELIN. What were your hours of work that day? - -Mr. HENSLEE. My assigned hours? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. HENSLEE. 6:30 until 2 p.m. 6:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on after that? - -Mr. HENSLEE. I stayed until about 5:30, as I recall, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. You mentioned channel 2. How many channels do you have? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Two channels. - -Mr. BELIN. Was channel 2 being used for the motorcade that day? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. This is a transcript of the radio log of that date. - -Mr. BELIN. For what channel? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Channel 2. - -Mr. BELIN. Covering from? - -Mr. HENSLEE. From 10:25 a.m., until 1:53 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the covering page it says that: "The -following was recorded on channel 2, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. This report -includes information prior to the arrival of the President's plane, -progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to Parkland -Hospital. Also included are events concerning the shooting of Officer -Tippit." - -Mr. HENSLEE. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day -or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in -the covering paragraph. - -Mr. HENSLEE. Pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering -paragraph only. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, I hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition -Exhibit B, and ask you to state if you know what this is? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B? - -Mr. HENSLEE. That is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of -President Kennedy and Officer Tippit on channel 1. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, I notice times on Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A -and B. Does this mean a time according to your police clock there when -an event happened? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. For instance, on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I see until -12:40 p.m., a number of conversations. Then the next one is 12:43 p.m. -Does that mean that all the conversations took place between 12:40 and -12:43 p.m.? - -Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. They took place in the order in which they are listed here? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Right. There were so many, we couldn't get the time in -after each transmission. - -Mr. BELIN. Who prepared Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, if you know? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Well, I am pretty sure these are the ones I prepared. They -are copies of them. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know from what source they were prepared? - -Mr. HENSLEE. They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We -have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two -separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and -tapes. - -Mr. BELIN. Under your supervision? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice numbers here. For instance, I see on Sawyer -Deposition Exhibit A, the No. 531 often appears. Would that be your -call number? - -Mr. HENSLEE. This designates the radio dispatcher. - -Mr. BELIN. Then I see the number here, No. 1 sometimes appears. Who is -that? - -Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Chief J. E. Curry. - -Mr. BELIN. I see a No. 9. Who is No. 9? - -Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Inspector J. H. Sawyer. - -Mr. BELIN. Different numbers are assigned to different people? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. If an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the -number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the -Department? - -Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. For instance, I see the No. 78 here. Does that appear to be -the number of J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. HENSLEE. On that particular day it was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of, Sergeant, that -might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the -President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. HENSLEE. No. The only thing I have is what I observed over the -police radio that day. That is all the knowledge I have at all. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation. - -One other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it -before it goes into Washington, or else you can waive the reading and -have it go directly to Washington. - -Do you have any preference? - -Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, I would like to read it before I sign it. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all right. It makes no difference to us. And again, -we thank you. - -Mr. HENSLEE. What else can I do for you? - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY - -The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April -7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn? - -(Witness complying.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Sit down and state your name and your address. - -Mr. SHELLEY. William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas -11. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and---- - -Mr. SHELLEY. I was born at Gunter, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. What is your education? - -Mr. SHELLEY. High school. - -Mr. BALL. What have you been doing since then? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and -started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945. - -Mr. BALL. (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did -you tell her all about yourself? - -Mr. SHELLEY. You wanted to know when I was born. - -Mr. BALL. You told us that, and you had your high school education? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done since then? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I've told her. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. SHELLEY. She already has it, October 29, 1945. - -Mr. BALL. October 29, 1945--steady since that date? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. In November 1963, what was your job down there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and -have been for several years. - -Mr. BALL. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Roy S. Truly. - -Mr. BALL. What is his job? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He is superintendent of the place. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He worked for me. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did he do for you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work. - -Mr. BALL. What? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work. - -Mr. BALL. What was it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Order filling. - -Mr. BALL. As an order filler did he have access to any more than one -floor? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many floors? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Just about any of them outside the offices. - -Mr. BALL. Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he -worked more frequently than other floors? - -Mr. SHELLEY. The first floor is where all the order filling is done; -the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock -on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it. - -Mr. BALL. So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on -5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something -I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it. - -Mr. BALL. His work was satisfactory? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work -that morning? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him from time to time during that day? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down -to eat lunch about 10 to 12. - -Mr. BALL. Where had you been working? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that -floor that morning. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go down and eat lunch? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was around 10 'til. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, I started eating. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you start eating it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. In my office next to Mr. Truly's and I ate part of it -which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside -then to the front. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the front? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the -motorcade and I went out to join them. - -Mr. BALL. And who was out there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, -she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady -joined us shortly afterwards. - -Mr. BALL. You were standing where? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside the glass doors there. - -Mr. BALL. That would be on the top landing of the entrance? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade pass? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker -and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. - -Mr. BALL. And then? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't think anything about it. - -Mr. BALL. What did it sound like to you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, -wasn't real loud. - -Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't do anything for a minute. - -Mr. BALL. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like it came from the west. - -Mr. BALL. It sounded like it came from the west? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran -back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy -Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old -island and we stopped there for a minute. - -Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is -there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building -and Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. It dead ends? - -Mr. SHELLEY. There's concrete between the two streets. - -Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't -it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split. - -Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards -and Billy and I walked down that way. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street. - -Mr. BALL. The dead-end street? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the -building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while -we were on the island. - -Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad -yards? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard -those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going -into the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because -this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when -the President was hit. - -Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained -standing there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. -Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that -were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned -around and we saw an officer and Truly. - -Mr. BALL. And Truly? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first -step like they were fixin' to go in. - -Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were they running? - -Mr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people -around. - -Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on -the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars -down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in -through our parking lot at the west end. - -Mr. BALL. At the west end? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. - -Mr. BALL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the -motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. - -Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who else did you see? - -Mr. SHELLEY. That's all we saw immediately. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building. - -Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile -after that. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let -anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen -came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what -but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started -searching the various floors. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go up on the sixth floor? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when they found anything up there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found -the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had -gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, -one of the officers and they got them. - -Mr. BALL. They did what? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They got the bones. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window -from the southeast corner. - -Mr. BALL. And were they in a sack? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Laying on a sack. - -Mr. BALL. Laying on a sack. - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that's all. - -Mr. BALL. That's the only ones? - -Mr. SHELLEY. That's all. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that -morning? - -Mr. SHELLEY. At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was -the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west -side and he was eating a sandwich so he says. - -Mr. BALL. Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had -eaten fried chicken that morning? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating -chicken. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think you did or do you know? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating -and he said it was a sandwich. - -Mr. BALL. Was that before you went down for lunch? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. It was two-thirds across the building toward the west -because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from -where we were actually working. - -Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like -firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the -noise like a firecracker and she came up? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider. - -Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on -down under the viaduct? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you run out to the point or walk out? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I believe we trotted out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay very long? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, it wasn't very long. - -Mr. BALL. How long? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Maybe a minute or two. - -Mr. BALL. And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going -into the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first -railroad track? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That's about what distance? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Approximately 100 yards. - -Mr. BALL. Did you trot, run or walk? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay there any length of time? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Not very long. - -Mr. BALL. How long would you say? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went back to the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you trot or run back to the building? - -Mr. SHELLEY. We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or -less. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went into the west end? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and -did you see her on the first floor? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I sure don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You don't. - -Mr. SHELLEY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald use a clipboard? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On which he kept his orders? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one---- - -Mr. SHELLEY. It's one he picked up. - -Mr. BALL. Picked up where? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Just laying around. - -Mr. BALL. There are clipboards that the order fillers use there? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a -clip and maybe a piece of cardboard. - -Mr. BALL. Did he use the same one at all times? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; as far as I know. - -Mr. BALL. Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who found it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Frankie Kaiser. - -Mr. BALL. Where did he find it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the -stairway. - -Mr. BALL. Did he show you the place? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Point it out to you? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; so I invited Mr. Pinkston---- - -Mr. BALL. Mr. who? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Pinkston of the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. Did he come out and get the clipboard? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he got it. - -Mr. BALL. But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He was down there at the time and I told him about it and -he and Frankie and I went up and got it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what date? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the -following week though, I am pretty sure. - -Mr. BALL. You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of -November? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the -clipboard any orders? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Unfilled orders? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom -they had been assigned to fill? - -Mr. SHELLEY. They were Scott, Foresman invoices. - -Mr. BALL. Scott, Foresman invoices? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders. - -Mr. BALL. Who is "he"? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is Foresman [spelling]? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Foresman [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman -invoices? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other -publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to -publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy -sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and -forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to -them. - -Mr. BALL. So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, -Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning? - -Mr. SHELLEY. He already had the orders and was working when I got there. - -Mr. BALL. He had? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who would determine what orders they would get? - -Mr. SHELLEY. When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and -get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman. - -Mr. BALL. Would orders be assigned the day before? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The -boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the -work out---- - -Mr. BALL. I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman--suppose -Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would -follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill. - -Mr. SHELLEY. He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a -box marked Scott, Foresman. - -Mr. BALL. They would have Scott, Foresman on it? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work -would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other -boxes any other order filler would take them. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman -orders that day? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman -orders that day? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; -there's more of them. - -Mr. BALL. Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, -Foresman orders that day? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Probably were. - -Mr. BALL. Is there any way you can determine what order filler had that -clipboard? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used. - -Mr. BALL. It did look like the one he had used? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it -was found? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Two or three, best I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did you keep a list of them? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody make a list of them? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Not unless Mr. Pinkston did. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Pinkston of the FBI? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he -released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because -they were several days old. - -Mr. BALL. You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never -been filled? - -Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So you went ahead and filled them? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name--Pinkston? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know. - -Mr. BALL. Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very -much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and -sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the -others doing? - -Mr. BALL. Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you -rather do? - -Mr. SHELLEY. I would kind of like to see it for curiosity. - -Mr. BALL. Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard -found? - -Mr. SHELLEY. On the sixth floor in the far corner. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner? - -Mr. SHELLEY. By the stairway. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest? - -Mr. SHELLEY. Northwest, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF NAT A. PINKSTON - -The testimony of Nat A. Pinkston was taken at 12:10 p.m., on April 9, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I do. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mr. PINKSTON. Nat A. Pinkston. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I'm a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. BALL. Have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding? - -Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Your address is what? - -Mr. PINKSTON. My residence address is 2106 Van Cleave Drive, Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. And how long have you been a Special Agent for the Federal -Bureau of Investigation? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Be 24 years next month. - -Mr. BALL. And you are assigned to what office? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you did not receive a letter from the Commission asking -you to testify, did you? - -Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. At my request, wasn't it? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Well, I---- - -Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin and -he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The deposition taken in the course of an investigation by -the Commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances -surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and I am a staff -officer. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the -oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters -which you do have knowledge of. - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You are willing to testify, are you not? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the course of your investigation, were you called to the -Texas School Book Depository sometimes around the 2d of December 1963? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And who asked you to come down there? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an -investigation there on that date. - -Mr. BALL. On that date? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a fellow by the name of Frankie Kaiser? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Roy Truly? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did they tell you when you came down there? - -Mr. PINKSTON. To the best of my recollection I was there waiting to see -Mr. Truly. He was somewhere else in the building, and I was waiting for -him on the occasion in question. Frankie Kaiser came down the stairs -and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. I didn't--I -then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on -the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some -orders on it, and--pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to -what Kaiser told me, which is hearsay---- - -Mr. BALL. That is all right, but Kaiser told you that when you were -downstairs, that something--didn't he? When he was--did Kaiser come -downstairs? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes; Kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs -with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say he had left it there? - -Mr. PINKSTON. He had seen it there and did not bother it. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Mr. PINKSTON. He did not put it there. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Kaiser told you and you went upstairs and Kaiser -pointed out the clipboard? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. First, the location of the clipboard. - -Mr. PINKSTON. The clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of -the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It was on the -floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well. - -Mr. BALL. There were some book cartons in front of it, were there? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did Frankie Kaiser say something? That is hearsay, but I -would like to hear what it was. - -Mr. PINKSTON. He told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, -and had given to Oswald when Oswald went to work at the School Book -Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine the clipboard? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I did, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did it have anybody's name on it? - -Mr. PINKSTON. It had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and I -believe--well, I am not in a position to say right now exactly what it -had on it other than some orders. - -Mr. BALL. It did have some orders on it? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you examine the orders? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the date of the orders and the general -description of the orders? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Three orders on this clipboard. Each order was dated -November 22d. The first was an order from Mrs. Hazel Carroll of the -Reading Clinic, SMU, for one Parliamentary Procedure at $1.40. Was -published by Scott, Foresman & Co. - -And this invoice bore No. 2454. The second one was an order from Dallas -Independent School District from Mr. M. J. Morton, purchasing agent, at -the School Administration Building, 3700 Ross Avenue, Dallas, Tex., for -10 ERS, Basic Reading Skills, for high schools, revised, at $1.12, or -total of $11.20. Published by Scott, Foresman & Co. - -The Invoice was No. 6057. - -The third order was an order to be sent to Mr. M. K. Baker, Junior High -School, Reynosa, New Mex., for one TE Basic Reading Skills. J. H. S. -use. No charge. Sent at the request of Miss Mary Williams. Publisher; -Scott, Foresman & Co., invoice 8291. - -Each of these orders, as I say, were dated November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you--with the orders after you made -these notations? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I turned them over to Mr. Truly. He desired to fill the -orders. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the clipboard? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit -of it, as I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Is it still an exhibit? It is an FBI exhibit? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. In the possession of the FBI? - -Mr. PINKSTON. I haven't seen it since then. - -Mr. BALL. Will you try to determine if you still have that as an -exhibit in your office, or in Washington? - -Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your -signature, or you can waive your signature. - -Mr. PINKSTON. I would like to---- - -Mr. BALL. See it and read it? - -Mr. PINKSTON. See it and read it and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. You will be notified to come to this office and read it and -sign it. - -(After the conclusion of the deposition and at 1 o'clock, p.m., on the -same day as the taking of the deposition, Mr. Nat A. Pinkston appeared -before me, Iris Leonard, stating that he wished the following statement -to be incorporated with his deposition: "After reviewing my records, I -am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and -the orders thereon, I left them at the Texas School Book Depository -with Mr. Truly. The clipboard was picked up by another FBI agent at a -later time and was made an exhibit.") - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY - -The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April -7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn? - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I do. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mr. LOVELADY. Billy Nolan Lovelady. - -Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You know the purpose of the investigation? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born -and what your education was and your experience, in general? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February -19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service -and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down -there and nursery and stuff like that. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. LOVELADY. December 16, 1961, I believe it was. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, -drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the -stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place. - -Mr. BALL. Which one of the buildings do you work in? - -Mr. LOVELADY. At the one at 411 Elm. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working? - -Mr. LOVELADY. At that morning, you mean? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. LOVELADY. I was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting -down that flooring. - -Mr. BALL. Who were you working with? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and -Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. -Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't -workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along. - -Mr. BALL. That's Mr. Shelley? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Bill Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. What is his position with Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. LOVELADY. He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly. - -Mr. BALL. Is he a foreman? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most -things down there, paperwork and stuff like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well just to work with him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or -anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few -times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing -fine. - -Mr. BALL. Where did Oswald work in the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, he had access to all the building just like I do. - -Mr. BALL. All floors? - -Mr. LOVELADY. All floors. - -Mr. BALL. Any floor? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the -office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go -up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up -there. - -Mr. BALL. Did he work on one floor more than any other? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers -on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you? - -Mr. LOVELADY. He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but -not by himself, with the rest of the boys. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him come to work that morning? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir; just lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes -and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch -that day? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Same time, 12. - -Mr. BALL. A little before 12? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get -ready for it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you come down the elevator? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you go down with? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the -side I was; I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Were you having a race with the other boys? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way -down? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was -on. I heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the -elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the -gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come -by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the west elevator? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator? - -Mr. LOVELADY. East, on back, the elevator back. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because--where those -slats are in back of the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did -you do? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and -got a coke and come on back down. - -Mr. BALL. Upstairs on what floor? - -Mr. LOVELADY. That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the -domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody -was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was -standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I -said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my -lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. - -Mr. BALL. You ate your lunch on the steps? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me---- - -Mr. BALL. What was that last name? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Stanton. - -Mr. BALL. What is the first name? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. And Stanton's first name? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Miss Sarah Stanton. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the steps? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when the President's motorcade went by? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating -the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what -had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the -President had been shot. - -Mr. BALL. Who was this girl? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Gloria Calvary. - -Mr. BALL. Gloria Calvary? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where does she work? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Southwestern Publishing Co. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the direction of the sound? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right there around that concrete little deal on that -knoll. - -Mr. BALL. That's where it sounded to you? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going -down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in -that area. - -Mr. BALL. From the underpass area? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Between the underpass and the building right on that -knoll. - -Mr. BALL. I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on -that picture? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. - -Mr. LOVELADY. Where I thought the shots are? - -Mr. BALL. No; you in the picture. - -Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, here (indicating). - -Mr. BALL. Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an -arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were -you when the picture was taken? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right there at the entrance of the building standing on -the top of the step, would be here (indicating). - -Mr. BALL. You were standing on which step? - -Mr. LOVELADY. It would be your top level. - -Mr. BALL. The top step you were standing there? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, -Gloria Calvary, what did you do? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so -we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him -or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had -saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it -was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you -know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old -island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as -the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen -started running out that way and we said we better get back into the -building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had -that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. - -Mr. BALL. First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the -steps with. - -Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. Shelley and you went down how far? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to -the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---- - -Mr. BALL. You went down the dead end on Elm? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And down to the first tracks? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything there? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No sir; well, just people running. - -Mr. BALL. That's all? - -Mr. LOVELADY. And hollerin. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go down there? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I don't know, because everybody was running from that way -and naturally, I guess---- - -Mr. BALL. They were running from that way or toward that way? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from -that direction. - -Mr. BALL. By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the -building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15, -maybe 25, steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and -the policeman running into the building. - -Mr. BALL. How many steps? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Twenty, 25. - -Mr. BALL. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad -tracks? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, -Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the -building. - -Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did. - -Mr. BALL. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before -Gloria Calvary came up? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. - -Mr. BALL. Three minutes is a long time. - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, it's--I say approximately; I can't say because I -don't have a watch; it could. - -Mr. BALL. Had people started to run? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was -talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we -came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you -go down the steps. - -Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and -go toward the tracks? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you run or walk? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Medium trotting or fast walk. - -Mr. BALL. A fast walk? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the -policeman go into the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Somebody hollered and I looked. - -Mr. BALL. You turned around and looked? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went -in the back door of the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did -you go in the ordinary small door? - -Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a -little door. - -Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door? - -Mr. LOVELADY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn't it? - -Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street? - -Mr. LOVELADY. No; you are thinking about another dock. - -Mr. BALL. I am? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side -of the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter -it from the south side. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---- - -Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street. - -Mr. BALL. That's south. - -Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from -this direction; that would have to be west. - -Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors. - -Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we -get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors -between it. - -Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you see in the first floor? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. - -Mr. BALL. Who is Vickie? - -Mr. LOVELADY. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. - -Mr. BALL. What is her full name? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I wouldn't know. - -Mr. BALL. Vickie Adams? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Would you say it was Vickie you saw? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I couldn't swear. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the girl? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I don't remember what place she was but I remember -seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, -then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see -if we should continue working or what. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the first floor? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys -had come in. - -Mr. BALL. And you stayed on the first door then? - -Mr. LOVELADY. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me -would I take them up on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take them up there? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be -submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any -changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---- - -Mr. LOVELADY. I want this to be the final one. - -Mr. BALL. All right; you waive signature? - -Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER - -The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. KAISER. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you give me your name, please? - -Mr. KAISER. Frankie Kaiser. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mr. KAISER. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. KAISER. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company? - -Mr. KAISER. Oh, just about 2 years. - -Mr. BALL. What time do you go to work down there? - -Mr. KAISER. Eight o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. BALL. What date did you go to work for them? - -Mr. KAISER. It was August 24, 1962. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. KAISER. Texas--Texarkana, Ark. - -Mr. BALL. Were you born there? - -Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr. - -Mr. BALL. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you? - -Mr. KAISER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school? - -Mr. KAISER. I never finished. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go? - -Mr. KAISER. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service -and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then -came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises. - -Mr. BALL. You worked for whom? - -Mr. KAISER. Morris Warehouse. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that? - -Mr. KAISER. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work -over there. - -Mr. BALL. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes--then I got married. - -Mr. BALL. You did--what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. KAISER. Drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs -to be done. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that -worked there? - -Mr. KAISER. Not personally--I would know him when I would see him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you work in the same building with him? - -Mr. KAISER. Same building. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's parade went by? - -Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College. - -Mr. BALL. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository? - -Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed -tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the -lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go back to work? - -Mr. KAISER. It was the following Monday. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; I believe so--the 25th. - -Mr. BALL. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, -the corner I found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of -Catholic handbooks. - -Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what? - -Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" -books. - -Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what? - -Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books--separated. - -Mr. BALL. You do? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition. - -Mr. BALL. On what floor? - -Mr. KAISER. On the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition -located? - -Mr. KAISER. It was in that corner. - -Mr. BALL. And in what corner is that? - -Mr. KAISER. Let's see---- - -Mr. BALL. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or -the stairway? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it with reference to the stairway? - -Mr. KAISER. It was right next to the stairway--right in the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember? - -Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a -half, somewhere in there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of -Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent -named Pinkston; do you remember that? - -Mr. KAISER. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed -it to them. - -Mr. BALL. When you saw the clipboard---- - -Mr. KAISER. I went downstairs and got my boss. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. KAISER. William H. Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. And then what happened? - -Mr. KAISER. This FBI was standing there with me--he was standing there -then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think it would have been around December 2? - -Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it? - -Mr. KAISER. To my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to find the clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. I was over there looking for the Catholic -edition--teacher's edition. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see the clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. It was just laying there in the plain open--and just the -plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and -I just noticed it laying over there. - -Mr. BALL. Laying on the floor? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was laying on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. It was on the floor? - -Mr. KAISER. It was on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. How close was it to the wall? - -Mr. KAISER. It was about--oh--I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 -inches, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. From the wall and on the floor? - -Mr. KAISER. Laying on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. No, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. No, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the -stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this -way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the -cards--there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of -it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up. - -Mr. BALL. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, right there in the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. I didn't touch it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later touch it? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see it had some orders on it? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And were the orders dated? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were they dated? - -Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston -that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in -any way? - -Mr. KAISER. (Read statement referred to.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you read that? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the -clipboard? - -Mr. KAISER. I didn't know the date on the orders--I knew that there was -some orders on there--I seen the orders on the clipboard. - -Mr. BALL. Did you examine them to determine the date on them? - -Mr. KAISER. Did I examine those orders? No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't examine the orders? - -Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they -took it down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the orders? - -Mr. KAISER. I didn't, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders? - -Mr. KAISER. No, sir; now, my boss may have. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself? - -Mr. KAISER. No, sir; not them, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You turned these over to your boss? - -Mr. KAISER. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and -got them and they handled them. - -Mr. BALL. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up. - -This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign -it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we -can send it on without a signature. - -Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your -deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C. - -(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for -identification.) - -Mr. KAISER. Anything else I can do, let me know. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature to it? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, I'll waive it. - -Mr. BALL. Fine. That's okay. - -Mr. KAISER. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER RESUMED - -The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just -wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath. - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was -it? - -Mr. KAISER. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of -pasteboard. - -Mr. BALL. Who made it? - -Mr. KAISER. I did. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. KAISER. Well, right after I started there--it had been a long time -ago. - -Mr. BALL. And how was it you weren't using it on this day? - -Mr. KAISER. You see, when he first started there---- - -Mr. BALL. Who is "he"? - -Mr. KAISER. Lee--when he first started to work there he got my -clipboard and started using it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give it to him to use? - -Mr. KAISER. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just -went and made me another one. - -Mr. BALL. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, because my name was all over it. - -Mr. BALL. Your name was on it, too? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it? - -Mr. KAISER. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around -here--everybody is always running off with it. - -Mr. BALL. That's the reason you put your name on it? - -Mr. KAISER. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let -him keep it and made me another one. - -Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures -as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do -you know? - -Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found there--it was found on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Where on the floor? - -Mr. KAISER. Behind these cartons--between there and the wall. - -Mr. BALL. Behind which cartons? - -Mr. KAISER. Right in here (indicating). - -Mr. BALL. Which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the -picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there? - -Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on -the floor. - -Mr. BALL. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found. - -Mr. KAISER. I'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the -wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.) - -Mr. BALL. You have marked an "X" on the carton--between that carton and -the wall the clipboard was found. - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you later find clothing? - -Mr. KAISER. I just found the coat there--I didn't even know it was his -until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding. - -Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit 163--do you recognize that blue -jacket? - -Mr. KAISER. That's the one I found. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you find it--tell me first. - -Mr. KAISER. It was in the window sill. - -Mr. BALL. In what room? - -Mr. KAISER. In the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked--does this -show the window? - -Mr. KAISER. Right down in here. - -Mr. BALL. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the -jacket was found? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window. - -Mr. BALL. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the -picture? - -Mr. KAISER. No; it sure wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. But was it the same window? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the window sill is shown there too? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this -show the place where the jacket was found? - -Mr. KAISER. Right over in here. - -Mr. BALL. Where--put an "X" there--it's in the window sill? - -Mr. KAISER. Right. - -(Marked diagram with an "X".) - -Mr. BALL. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino -room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture -marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there -by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" -please? - -Mr. KAISER. (Initialed instrument as requested.) - -Mr. BALL. That's "FK". - -I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much. - -Mr. KAISER. That's all right. - -Mr. BALL. You'll waive this signature too? - -Mr. KAISER. Yes. - -(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for -identification.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS - -The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GIVENS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please? - -Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens? - -Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue. - -Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. GIVENS. 38. - -Mr. BELIN. Married? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens? - -Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life? - -Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World -War II, in the Navy. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy? - -Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before -you went in the Navy? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Doing what? - -Mr. GIVENS. SMU. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. GIVENS. SMU. - -Mr. BELIN. SMU? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there? - -Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service. - -Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service? - -Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service? - -Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work. - -Mr. BELIN. At SMU? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where? - -Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co. - -Mr. BELIN. Doing what there? - -Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck. - -Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck? - -Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that? - -Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little -trouble. - -Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long was that? - -Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company, -and then after that I got this job down here at the depository. - -Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened then? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff -during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he -calls you back. - -Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack -season? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, -don't have any special job. - -Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we -fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We -have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more -than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth -floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any -one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, -also? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22? - -Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the -floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on? - -Mr. GIVENS. Sixth. - -Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that -day? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work? - -Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day? - -Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like -about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he -was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the -book right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What -you said and what he said? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He -never had too much to say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about -his family, or baseball, or anything? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did -you say and what did he say? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book. - -Mr. BELIN. What would he say? - -Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald? - -Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he call you? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call -me anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you -see him at all there or not? - -Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it? - -Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by. - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was that? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were -you? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all? - -Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth -floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 -o'clock? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would -be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the -Houston Street. - -Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than -the west one? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason, -but on the west, you have double gates on that. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the -east elevator up? - -Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first? - -Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he? - -Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders. - -Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all? - -Mr. GIVENS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and -pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing -he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the -whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work. - -Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the -floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next? - -Mr. GIVENS. Next? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way -downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the -fifth floor. - -I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket -pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket -with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth -floor in that vicinity, coming from that way. - -Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way? - -Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from. - -Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw -him on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the -elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the -sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me. - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but -perhaps we can use another plan here to help us. - -Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street -side, and you can see the arrow pointing north. - -This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that -there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, -right? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now -did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you -standing near any of these windows? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be -somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct? - -Mr. GIVENS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the -south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front -part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to -the back of the east elevator, is that about right? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating]. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it -would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building, -is that right? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that -about right? - -Mr. GIVENS. That is about right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons -stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, -because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and -ran it down that side. - -Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth -floor where you were working and put it there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the -other side of the window? - -Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the -elevators. - -Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand. - -Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the -east wall that he was walking along, or what? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front -of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you -remember? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the -window itself? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that -southeast corner? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see -him walking in? - -Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators. - -Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book -cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling -orders? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible. - -Mr. BELIN. It was possible? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was -getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going -downstairs?" - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you? - -Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time." - -He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the -elevator." - -That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down -and it will come up by itself. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? - -Mr. GIVENS. That is all. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the -elevator gate, or not say anything? - -Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down? - -Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one. - -Mr. BELIN. The east elevator? - -Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first -floor, the west elevator was there? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close -the gate and it wasn't there. - -Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. What time was this? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, then -because it was---- - -Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first -floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James -Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was -going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there -a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot." - -I had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on Elm and Record. - -Mr. BELIN. Elm and Record Streets? - -Mr. GIVENS. Elm and Record Streets; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be one block to the east of the corner of Elm and -Houston? - -Mr. GIVENS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. I stood around over there and went up on the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. What corner? - -Mr. GIVENS. Up on Main and Record. That is where I watched the -President pass right there. - -Mr. BELIN. Who else was there with you that you knew? - -Mr. GIVENS. James and Edward Shields. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the same person, James Edward? - -Mr. GIVENS. Edward Shields and James. - -Mr. BELIN. Two other people? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You watched the motorcade together? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you watched the motorcade? - -Mr. GIVENS. We turned and started back down to the parking lot. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. GIVENS. Then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in -front, right across in front of the Record Building, then we heard the -shots. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. -When did you eat lunch? - -Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let's see, no; I -ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my -sandwich standing out there. - -Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. In front of what building? - -Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I eat inside the building all the time. - -Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you said you saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor around -11:55? - -Mr. GIVENS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between -11:55 and the time you left the building? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. On November 22d? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere -between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper? - -Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every -morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the -next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's -paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that -morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't -see him in the domino room that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read? - -Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, -when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look -at it. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. -Fellows bring it to work. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that -somebody else brought to work? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one. - -Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James -Jarman would generally bring one. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you -left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the -elevator? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now? - -Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter--I said about a quarter to 12. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember? - -Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny -and myself. - -Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; a Spanish boy. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your -cigarettes so you went back up? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on? - -Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up? - -Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on -the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any -previous days on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up -to the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I went straight and picked up my jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was your jacket? - -Mr. GIVENS. It was on the west side of the building where we were -working. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, there are seven pairs of windows. Was it on the south -wall of the building? Was it near any one of those windows on the south -wall, or was it more to the center of the west side? - -Mr. GIVENS. It was more to the corner on the west side. I would say -along about the second window going. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the -stairs or the southwest corner? - -Mr. GIVENS. Southwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. You have shown the southwest corner? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; along about here [indicating]. - -Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot which appears to be -approximately, oh, 25 feet north, and about 10 feet east of the -southwest corner of the sixth floor. Would that be about right? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. When you -walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see Lee -Oswald there? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were -walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't see him until I got back along here, -about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on. - -Mr. BELIN. As you were walking to the first spot, which we will -describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or -about to get on the elevator, or what? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I was fixing to get on. - -Mr. BELIN. You were fixing to get on? The elevator was still there -where you left it when you came up? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. As you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning -to get on it, you saw Lee Oswald walking with his clipboard? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward -you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to -the east wall here? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say yes, sir; he was going like this. - -Mr. BELIN. He was going? - -Mr. GIVENS. Coming down the aisle. - -Mr. BELIN. Coming down the aisle straight? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? Did he -have a pencil in his hand? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to -get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of -the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened -to glance around as I was on my way back. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you -remember? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir. I just walked off and turned and went right -over there and picked my jacket up and started back. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were -getting off the elevator? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I kind of glanced that way when I turned to go around -the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone over there at that time? - -Mr. GIVENS. Not at that time, no, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how high the books were by the southeast -corner on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say about 10 feet from the window. In the -aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack. - -Mr. BELIN. Would they have been as tall as you? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. If a man would have been standing up there, would you have -been able to see him? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north -end of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up -on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes? - -Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a -newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that -morning on November 22d? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the -domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d? - -Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time. - -Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there. - -Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the -first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two -elevators, didn't you? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators? - -Mr. GIVENS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Who won? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it -stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before -you went back up to the sixth floor again? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes -and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up -to the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my -hands, I sure did. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these -other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over -to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay any attention the first time I -was coming down. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you laying the new floor that morning? What -portion of the sixth floor would it be? - -Mr. GIVENS. West side. - -Mr. BELIN. How much of the west side? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were working, I would say, about 10 feet from Elm -Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you were pointing to right over this point here? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at the scale, it would be about 10 feet from -the--it would be more than 10 feet. Here is the scale. - -This would be 20 feet, so it would be more than 20 feet from Elm Street? - -Mr. GIVENS. About 20 feet, maybe so. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you think it was closer to 10 feet than 20 feet from the -Elm Street side of the west part of the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. I believe it was somewhere in that vicinity. - -Mr. BELIN. How close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were, oh, I would say about 20 feet out from the -wall, we had laid. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen Oswald on -the sixth floor that morning? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, is there anything else you can think of that -happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Everything was all right until that. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. GIVENS. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we -got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, -going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. - -And we asked--I asked someone--some white fellow there, "What happened?" - -And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there -for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they -found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get -back in the officer at the door would't let me in. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he -wouldn't let no one in. - -Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait -until I seen Junior. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that -they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go -back and get my hat and coat." - -So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson -saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I -said, "Yes." - -And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement." - -And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made -a statement to Will Fritz down there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you -saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have -asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about Lee Oswald, whether I -have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Other than he is just a peculiar fellow. He is -just a loner. Don't have much to say to anybody. Stayed by himself most -of the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice any one person there he was more -friendly with than the other? - -Mr. GIVENS. Well, this boy he rode with. - -Mr. BELIN. Frazier? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Every once in a while I would see him talking to -him. Bonnie Ray told me--I never saw him, but Bonnie Ray told me he -talked to he and Danny sometimes. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that is about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in -coming down here. - -Now you and I didn't talk about this at all until we started taking -this deposition, did we? - -Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You walked into the room and you raised your right hand and -we started taking your testimony. Is that correct? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Have I ever met you before? - -Mr. GIVENS. I don't believe so. I don't believe I have. - -Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity to come back here and read this and -sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the -court reporter send it directly to Washington. Do you want to come back -and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter -just send it to Washington? - -Mr. GIVENS. Would it be necessary to come back? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir; it is not. You can waive it if you desire to do it. -Do you want to waive it? - -Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you. We will see you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF TROY EUGENE WEST - -The testimony of Troy Eugene West was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. West, would you raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WEST. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to sit down now, please. Will you please state your -name for the record? Your name is Troy Eugene West? - -Mr. WEST. Troy Eugene West. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. West? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I was born in 1907. That would be 57, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You go to school at all in Texas? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I went to the seventh grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEST. Well; I had to come out of school and go to work. - -Mr. BELIN. You started working then? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you started working? Where did you work? - -Mr. WEST. On the farm. - -Mr. BELIN. On the farm? - -Mr. WEST. On the farm, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay on the farm? - -Mr. WEST. Oh, I stayed on the farm until way up after I got grown. I -was way up past--I guess I was about 24. - -Mr. BELIN. When you left the the farm, then what did you do when you -left the farm? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I came to town after I left. - -Mr. BELIN. You came to Dallas? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; little town at Mexia, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in town there? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I lived there for about 7 years, I guess. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in town for 7 years, and generally what did you do -when you were in town? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I worked the express all the time. - -Mr. BELIN. For any particular company? - -Mr. WEST. I was trying to think of the man's name. - -Mr. BELIN. You can't remember it right now? - -Mr. WEST. I just can't remember it right now. Been quite a little while. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, do you remember what you did after you got through -doing that? After 6 or 7 years, then where did you go? - -Mr. WEST. I came to Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do in Dallas, generally? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I worked around just different places until I started -to work for the company where I am now. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you start working for them? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I have been with them now about 16 years. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been with them 16 or 17 years? What company is that? - -Mr. WEST. Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you do for the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I am a mail wrapper. - -Mr. BELIN. You are a mail wrapper? - -Mr. WEST. I wrap mail all the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you doing that on November 22d of 1963, too? Were you a -mail wrapper at that time back in last November? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to work on November 22, 1963? That was a Friday, -the day the President was assassinated. - -Mr. WEST. Yes; I went to work that day. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did you get to work? - -Mr. WEST. Well, we always got to work--we were supposed to be there at -8 in the morning. - -Mr. BELIN. You got there at 8 that morning? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. I always, most of the time I got there a little early. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time you got to work that particular -morning? - -Mr. WEST. It was about 10 minutes to 8. I always be 5 or 10 minutes -early. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work? - -Mr. WEST. Well, when I first got to work I always made coffee in the -morning at the store. That is the first thing I do in the morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee? - -Mr. WEST. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you make coffee? - -Mr. WEST. Well, it is down on the first floor in the same department -where I wrap mail at. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I have a first floor map here of the School Book -Depository. Here is Elm Street and here is the front entrance. - -Here is Mr. Truly's office, and here is Mr. Shelley's office. - -There is the stairway down to the basement, and there are the elevators -and the back stairway. There are the toilets there. About where would -you wrap mail there? Here is the domino room and the shower. - -You are looking here, that is north Elm Street runs this way and -Houston Street runs that way. It is shown on that diagram. - -Mr. WEST. Well, my place was in the west side of the other building. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it near the stairway. - -Mr. WEST. No; it wasn't close to the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it closer to the Elm Street side of the building? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What was it close to? The west side is the side near the -railroad tracks and the triple underpass. Is that what you think is the -west side? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is what I would call the west side. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, now, the northwest part is by the stairway, and the -southwest part would be toward the corner near Elm Street. Do you mean -toward the Elm or more toward the wooden dock in the back? - -Mr. WEST. Well, it was about, I would say, middleways between Elm and -the dock. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, there are a couple of overhead doors on that west -side, aren't there? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You see where it is marked on the first floor diagram, -overhead door and overhead door? Two doorways here on the west side? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then was it near either one of those doorways? - -Mr. WEST. Well, it was near this one, pretty close to this one. - -Mr. BELIN. It was close to what I would call a doorway, approximately -in the middle side of the west wall of the first floor? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That is where you wrapped the mail? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That is where you have the coffee machine? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I have it. - -Mr. BELIN. That is where you went when you got to work that morning? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you first go to the domino room and leave your lunch or -hang up your coat or anything? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir. I just always go right there first. Sometime I pull -my coat off and lay it over on the table and go right on. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay about making coffee when you got -there? How long did you stay around that place when you first got there? - -Mr. WEST. Well, let's see, it didn't take me too long. I mean, you -know, to make the coffee. After I got it made, I went right on and went -right on at my work wrapping mail. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general area all the time? - -Mr. WEST. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general location all the time? - -Mr. WEST. That was my, all my work was right there on the first floor. -I never did--- - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald that morning? - -Mr. WEST. I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WEST. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WEST. Yes; I had been seeing him every morning, you know. He would -come to work. Excepting the morning, I didn't see him that morning at -all. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you generally see him when he first came to work? - -Mr. WEST. Most of the time I see him. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him when he first came to work? - -Mr. WEST. Well, he would come in and probably I would be on my way back -to the rest room, probably to get water in my percolator, or maybe wash -the cups or something, and I would see him when he would come in, and I -would speak and go right ahead. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Lee Harvey Oswald say? - -Mr. WEST. I would just say to him, "Good morning," and he said, "Good -morning," to me, and he was going right on, and I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever stop and get a cup of coffee? - -Mr. WEST. I never did see him stop and get any. I don't know whether he -drink coffee or not. He never did stop and get any. - -Mr. BELIN. When you would see him, where would he be walking or working -when he first came to work in the morning? - -Mr. WEST. He would be order filler, and naturally, they have bins, all -those bins down there made for stock, and he would be working around in -there sometime. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when you walked into work, or did you see -him after he started working? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I would notice him times after he done started working. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't generally see him walking into work, did you, or -did you? - -Generally, when you would first see him, would he be just walking into -work? - -Mr. WEST. Be just coming in. - -Mr. BELIN. What route would he take when he normally came to work? Do -you know what doorway? Did he walk through the front or the back? - -Mr. WEST. Well, it is through the back door. He would come in the side -door next to the dock on the northeast side. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what route would he take when he walked in? - -Mr. WEST. Well, he would come right in, and a lot of times I would be -mostly, or be passing him, and he would come right in and probably I'd -go right on, and I never would see him no more than that he would be on -that work, or whatever. - -Mr. BELIN. When he came in, for instance, did he go right to an -elevator to go upstairs, or did he go over to the domino room, or down -to the basement, or where would he go when he would first come in? - -Mr. WEST. He would go and pull off his jacket or coat or whatever he -had on, and go on to work there. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, where would he put his coat when he took it off? - -Mr. WEST. Sometimes he would hang it up. - -Mr. BELIN. Where? - -Mr. WEST. Pretty close to the elevator, or something, or lots of times -he would just lay it down on something there in the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him take his jacket into the domino room to -hang it up? - -Mr. WEST. No; I never did see him. - -Mr. BELIN. He would either lay his jacket or hang it up by the -elevator, or lay it on these boxes where he was working, is that what -your testimony is? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; he would lay it either close, hang it up on the -elevator, or either lay it down. - -A lot of times, he would just pull it off and lay it down. - -Mr. BELIN. Would he ever take his shirt off and put it down there and -just work in a T-shirt? - -Mr. WEST. I don't believe I ever seen him working in just a T-shirt. -He worked in his shirt all right, but I never did see him work in a -T-shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him carrying his lunch inside? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did see him with any lunch. - -Mr. BELIN. On the morning of November 22, did you happen to see Buell -Wesley Frazier? Do you remember Frazier who worked down there? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see him come in that morning on November -22, that Friday, if you remember? - -Mr. WEST. Well, lots of times I seen him that day, but now I didn't see -him when he came in, because I had got busy at working and I might have -probably had been in, you know, a good while before I saw him. I didn't -see when he came. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you earlier testified you never saw Oswald on -November 22? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see him that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you generally at your spot in the west part of the -first floor there that you are talking about by the mailing place? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there many days when you would ever see him working -down there in the morning near you? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir. I had generally been seeing him nearly every -morning, excepting that morning I didn't see him at all. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him every morning except that morning? - -Mr. WEST. Practically every morning except then. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you quit for lunch that day? - -Mr. WEST. Well, we always quit at 12 o'clock in the day. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that when you quit on November 22d? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I went in and washed my hands and face and then got -ready to put my coffee on. I always make coffee at 12. Make it in the -morning, and then I make it about 12, between 12 and 12:30. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you put your coffee on? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In the west part of the first floor where you generally work? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I went to get my lunch to eat a bite. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you get your lunch? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I always kept my lunch right there close by my machine, -by my wrapping machine that I use all the time, that I always kept my -lunch. I have a little place underneath and I keep it there all the -time. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that wraps the books for mailing, or -wraps them up for mailing? - -Mr. WEST. Well, no, sir; I am not the only one, but mine is that way -just every day. - -Mr. BELIN. You do it all the time? - -Mr. WEST. Yes; I do that. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that does it all the time? - -Mr. WEST. I am the only one that is steady, wraps mail all the time, -although I have help, you know, when it gets stacked. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever help you wrap mail? - -Mr. WEST. No sir; he never did. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he ever borrowed or used any -wrapping paper for himself? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know? - -Mr. WEST. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him around these wrapper rolls or wrapper -roll machines, or not? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around. - -Mr. BELIN. Are they paper machines with the rolls of wrapping paper? -You have some gum there too, for taping it? When you wrap it, would you -tape it with some tape? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? Did you put tape on the wrapping paper when -it was being shipped? - -When you wrap the books up with wrapping paper, did you have any gum -tape that you put on it? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I had a machine that I placed it on the machine and -tied it with, and the machine tied it with a string. - -Mr. BELIN. With string? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Didn't you have any gummed tape by your machine? - -Mr. WEST. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any kind of a tape, sticky tape that you would -put on the paper to keep it together, or was that somewhere else? - -Mr. WEST. Oh, yes, sir; I used some of that wide tape. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that sticky tape? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. To seal the package with? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that's right. - -And then I tie it, put it on the machine and then tie it. - -Mr. BELIN. Is yours the only place that they have the sticky tape? - -Mr. WEST. Well, that is the only place that is supposed to be, you -know. - -Mr. BELIN. Could other employees come and pick up some of the tape for -themselves? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; they could come get it if they wanted to use it, -but all the time it was there where it is supposed to be. - -Mr. BELIN. Did other employees from time to time come and borrow some -of that tape at all, or use it? - -Would other employees ever use any of that tape for themselves? - -Mr. WEST. Not as I know of now. - -Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to use any of that tape, you know that tape that -you use to seal it, is there a way to make tape wet so I don't have to -lick it myself with my tongue to make it wet and sticky? Or how did you -get it to be sticky and stick together? - -Mr. WEST. Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that -we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. In to--other words, -I got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, -and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you -know, it gets water on it as we pull it through. - -Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without -getting water on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet -roller and get the tape without getting it wet? - -Mr. WEST. You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out -of the machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little -clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it -gets water on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this an electrical machine or is it just kind of a little -apparatus for just pulling it through by hand? - -Mr. WEST. Well, it is not electric, no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now going back to November 22, you said you quit for lunch -around noon on that day on Friday, November 22? - -Mr. WEST. Yes. About 12 o'clock we always quit for lunch. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any of the men coming down the elevator that -day? Bonnie Ray Williams or James Jarman, Jr., or Danny Arce, or any -one else coming down that morning? Charlie Givens? - -Do you remember them coming down the elevator, or don't you remember? - -Mr. WEST. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, after you quit for lunch, you made the coffee then? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee? - -Mr. WEST. I made the coffee right there close to the wrapping mail -table where I wrap mail. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I sit down to eat my lunch. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I had just, after I made coffee, I just had started to -eat my lunch because I was a little hungry--I didn't eat anything that -morning before I went to work--and I had started to eat my lunch. - -But before I got through, well, all of this was, I mean, the police and -things was coming in, and I was just spellbound. I just didn't know -what was the matter. So I didn't get through eating. I had to eat about -half my lunch, and that is all. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots fired? - -Mr. WEST. I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were -eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor? - -Mr. WEST. It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. At any time while you were making coffee or eating your -lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after -you--while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building? - -Mr. WEST. Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were -coming in the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming -through there while you were eating your lunch? - -Mr. WEST. Well, that was police. - -Mr. BELIN. A police officer? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. WEST. I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a -crowd of them coming in there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you -know Mr. Truly? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him, do you remember, while you were eating -your lunch, come in the building? - -Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come -in ahead of him, if you remember? - -Mr. WEST. Really, I just don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you -to say if you don't remember. - -Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like -that? - -Mr. WEST. I can't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you working when you were eating your lunch? Were you -facing the elevator or not when you were eating your lunch? Were you -facing any of the elevators back there? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I was always--I mean I would always be with my back -kind of, you know, towards the elevators and facing the front side over -on the side. - -Mr. BELIN. The Elm Street side? - -Mr. WEST. Toward Elm Street side. - -Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether anyone was using the elevators? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether anyone was going up and down the stairs? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything else about what happened on November -22, that might be helpful or relevant here? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't really. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you ever on the second floor on November 22? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did hardly ever leave the first floor. That -is just I stayed there where all my work was, and I just stayed there. - -Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you ever leave the first floor? - -Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did leave the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it -or not? - -Mr. WEST. Well, I don't know anything else. I know of nothing else. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we thank you very much for coming down here, Mr. West. -If you want, you can come back down again and read your deposition and -sign it, or else you can just waive coming down here. You don't have to -come down. You can tell the court reporter to send it directly to us, -if you want to. - -Mr. WEST. You mean when I get ready to sign it? - -Mr. BELIN. Now you do not have to sign it if you don't want to. You can -just tell the court reporter to type it up and send it directly to us, -or you can tell the court reporter you would like to read it and sign -it before she sends it to us in Washington. - -You don't have to sign it. Or if you want to sign it, you can come back -and sign it, whichever you want to do. - -Mr. WEST. Well, I think--I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to come down here again and read it and sign it, -or do you want to waive? - -You can waive and tell the court reporter that she can just send it -after she types it up, directly to us in Washington without your -reading it and signing it. - -Mr. WEST. Well, I think that is what I will do, just have it waived and -send it on. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, that is fine. - -Thank you very much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DANNY G. ARCE - -The testimony of Danny G. Arce was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mr. ARCE. Danny Garcia Arce. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. ARCE. 1502 Bennett Avenue. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were -born and where you went to school? - -Mr. ARCE. I was born here in Dallas and I went to Stephen F. Foster -Elementary school and Alex W. Spence Junior High and Crozier Tech. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, I quit school and found a job and worked. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you find a job? - -Mr. ARCE. The first job, well, you don't want---- - -Mr. BALL. No; just in general. - -Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and -just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall--Rubenstein and Sons. I -haven't had too many jobs. - -Mr. BALL. What is Rubenstein and Son, a restaurant? - -Mr. ARCE. No; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them -out, I guess. - -Mr. BALL. What else have you done? - -Mr. ARCE. That's about all. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. ARCE. I started in September--September, I believe, the 6th, -September 6th. - -Mr. BALL. Of what year? - -Mr. ARCE. 1963. - -Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission asking you to -appear here, didn't you? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You understand the purpose of the investigation? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. To determine the facts surrounding the assassination of the -President, President Kennedy. - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You started to work in September 1963, this last September? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes; last September. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do? - -Mr. ARCE. Order filler. - -Mr. BALL. What building did you work in? - -Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse. - -Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm? - -Mr. ARCE. No; that's on---- - -Mr. BALL. Which is this? - -Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School -Book Depository at Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me -and the other boy down there. - -Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy? - -Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what? - -Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there? - -Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. October? - -Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; -I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that. - -Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the -sixth when this happened. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lee Oswald? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too -much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or -anything. - -Mr. BALL. You say he worked with you; did he work laying floors? - -Mr. ARCE. No, he was an order filler; he just worked the same place. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him on the sixth floor? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, quite a few times. - -Mr. BALL. Ever see him on the first floor? - -Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him? - -Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play -dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and -he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't -like crowds. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, what time did you go to work? - -Mr. ARCE. We start at eight but I believe I was a little late. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work on what floor? - -Mr. ARCE. Sixth. - -Mr. BALL. Did you work there all morning? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get off work? - -Mr. ARCE. That day? - -Mr. BALL. At noon for your lunch hour or your lunch period? - -Mr. ARCE. What time we left down for lunch? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. ARCE. We usually leave down about 5 to 12, something around there. - -Mr. BALL. How did you go down stairs? - -Mr. ARCE. By the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have sort of a race that day, do you remember? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me about it. - -Mr. ARCE. Well, me and Bonnie Ray and, I am not too sure, I believe it -was Billy Lovelady, were on the same elevator, and Charles Givens and -the other guys were on the other one and we were racing down. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator were you on? - -Mr. ARCE. We have two of them that go up, the same deal and I was on -the one facing east. There's an east and a west elevator and I was in -the one facing east. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he -wanted to go down. - -Mr. BALL. He was there--on what floor? - -Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the -sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he -was on the fifth; I am not too sure. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. ARCE. He said "You all close the door on the elevator, I will be -down," or somethin'. I didn't pay too much attention. He said to leave -the elevator come down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him around there after that? - -Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't see him around after that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that? - -Mr. ARCE. I went outside. - -Mr. BALL. With whom? - -Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with -Junior. - -Mr. BALL. Who is Junior? - -Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior. - -Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you? - -Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but -he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs. - -Mr. BALL. What about Givens? - -Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess--I mean Melvin--no, -Carl, that's who he was with. - -Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty? - -Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was. - -Mr. BALL. Was he outside? - -Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time. - -Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch? - -Mr. ARCE. I don't know; I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. Who went outdoors with you? - -Mr. ARCE. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and -Charles Givens. - -Mr. BALL. You stood there how long before the parade came along? - -Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere around -there. I am not too sure about that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I did. I seen him when he turned the corner and when he -went down that underpass thing and I heard them shots and I couldn't -see anything. There was a lot of people. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots? - -Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. -I was on that grassy area part in front. - -Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk? - -Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to -get a higher view and still couldn't see. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. ARCE. Three. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the -west of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? -Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. ARCE. I was down to the west side, a little more to the west. - -Mr. BALL. Were you west of the building itself? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. You were not in front of the building? - -Mr. ARCE. I was directly in front, but then I walked a few steps down -to the west side. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to the west wall of the -building? - -Mr. ARCE. Oh, I was way far from it. I was across the street, I mean. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean "across the street"? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and -there's some grass and things up there and that's where I was at. I -couldn't tell you exactly where I was, see, it's hard to explain. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you say you were not in front of the building? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, not directly, not in front; I was across the street. - -Mr. BALL. And were you west of the west wall of the building? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, I was, well the building---- - -Mr. BALL. I understand but you were to the south of the building. You -had to be south of the building, didn't you? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, I was south but I was, well, I guess you could say I -was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, I don't -know how to explain it. - -Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, I walked away from the other guys because they were all -in front of the building and I went across the street to get a closer -view. - -Mr. BALL. You walked which direction? - -Mr. ARCE. I just--right across the street. - -Mr. BALL. Right across Elm Street? - -Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. The part of Elm that dead ends there? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. You crossed that and went on to the grassy part? - -Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what -direction? - -Mr. ARCE. From the tracks on the west deal. - -Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. ARCE. Three. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? - -Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked -directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up -there and I just ran along with them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? - -Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the -building. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? - -Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? - -Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to -make statements out. - -Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. Well, just I minute, let's see---- - -Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there. - -Mr. BALL. You saw an old man? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by? - -Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place -around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure. - -Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him? - -Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to -the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and -walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's -when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there? - -Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out. - -Mr. BALL. Was he in a car? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black -car. - -Mr. BALL. He drove away? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? - -Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again. - -Mr. BALL. Just I minute, I want to show you a picture. I show you -Commission Exhibit No. 369. I show you this picture. See this man in -this picture? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Recognize him? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady. - -Mr. BALL. Just to identify it clearly, the man on the steps--well, you -see the man on the steps, do you not? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He is a white man, isn't he? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you see his picture just above the picture of two colored -people, is that correct; would you describe it like that? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I am not going to mark this purposely because other witnesses -have to see it. - -Mr. ARCE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say that is Billy Lovelady? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, that is Billy Lovelady. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there is only one face that is clearly shown within the -entrance-way of the Texas School Book Depository Building, isn't there? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And only one face of a person who is standing on the steps of -the Depository Building entrance? - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. And that one man you see there---- - -Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady. - -Mr. BALL. When you came to work that morning, Danny---- - -Mr. ARCE. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there at the time? - -Mr. ARCE. I believe I seen him once that morning on the first floor, -some place around there. I'm not too sure. - -Mr. BALL. But did you see him go into the building? - -Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have in his possession any paper bag or -sack that day? - -Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you will have an opportunity to -read it and sign it if you wish or you can waive signature. Which do -you wish? If you waive signature, you don't have to come back. Which do -you prefer? Do either one. - -Mr. ARCE. I don't understand too well. - -Mr. BALL. She writes this up. Then if you wish, you can come in, read -it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you -swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can -waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission. - -Mr. ARCE. I guess you all could send it on to the Commission. - -Mr. BALL. And you waive signature? - -Mr. ARCE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOE R. MOLINA - -The testimony of Joe R. Molina was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you rise and raise your right hand, Mr. Molina? - -(Witness complying.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. MOLINA. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. MOLINA. Joe R. Molina. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mr. MOLINA. 4306 Brown. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself; where were you born? - -Mr. MOLINA. I was born here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What was your education? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I went to Crozier Tech High School and I finished -after I came back from the service and at that time my intention was to -go to college but I got married and instead went to business college. -Then later on after attending about 5 months business college, I had -to find a job because my wife was expecting a baby, consequently, I -started working on-the-job training at the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. About what date? - -Mr. MOLINA. I started working in February of 1947. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there? - -Mr. MOLINA. 16 years. - -Mr. BALL. 16 years? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you wrote the Commission a letter asking to testify, -didn't you? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I called in. I didn't know whether I was going to be -called or not and they told me, you know, that I should write a letter -and ask the Commission, you know. (Letter marked Molina Exhibit A.) - -Mr. BALL. You wanted to be heard, is that right, before the Commission? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, on November 23d following the assassination, I was -paid a visit by the local police department at 1:30 in the morning and -they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another -and they thought that I was implicated. - -Mr. BALL. What makes you think they thought you were implicated? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, they were looking for something. I don't know what it -was they were looking for in the house. - -Mr. BALL. They came to your house here in Dallas? - -Mr. MOLINA. That's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife -half to death. - -Mr. BALL. Did they search the house? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did they have a search warrant? - -Mr. MOLINA. I don't know whether they did or not. - -Mr. BALL. Did they tell you what they were looking for? - -Mr. MOLINA. No. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me questions whether I knew different -persons that belong to the G.I. Forum---- - -Mr. BALL. To what? - -Mr. MOLINA. G.I. Forum, this club I belonged to here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? - -Mr. MOLINA. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling] in Dallas? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was it that asked you that? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I think it was Mr. Garroway did most of the -questioning and police Lieutenant Revill, I believe--yeah, that was his -name. - -Mr. BALL. What did they ask you? - -Mr. MOLINA. They asked me if I knew certain persons that had come -into the forum when it was first initiated and if I was acquainted -with them and if I associated with them, so forth and so on. I said -my activities were limited to the club. I didn't have any social, you -know, I wasn't intimate with them but merely a club that was started. I -was asked by my pastor to go see about this particular club which I did -and consequently, the club met at the church auditorium after it was -founded and one of the parish priests was a chaplain. - -Mr. BALL. Was it a Catholic, Roman Catholic organization? - -Mr. MOLINA. The G.I. Forum? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. MOLINA. No; the forum is a veterans' club. - -Mr. BALL. What else happened? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, after the police came, they didn't know whether--they -were undecided what to do, whether they would take me in for -questioning or not and so they decided evidently, since I told -them--they asked me if they could take a look around. I said "Sure, I -don't have anything to hide, look around". They looked around and did -a lot of searching and my wife started to get back in bed. She didn't -know that was going on. She thought they just want to question me and -they told her she had to get out of bed and go into the living room -and the kids were in the back room. I only have two bedrooms and the -kids were sleeping out there. They woke up the kids; they were looking -in their room, so they started questioning the kids, too. They started -to ask me questions and ask the kids about it. In other words, to -corroborate our statements. I didn't know at the time they were doing -it but later on found out. They couldn't find anything. I knew they -wouldn't find anything. I didn't know what they were looking for in -the first place. They decided to bring me down to the Dallas Police -Department for questioning. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police department? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me if I would go down the next morning -and I said yes, I would go down the next morning. I would rather go -down the next morning than now. It was already past 2, so the next -morning my wife drove me down. I got there about 11. My wife drove me -down and I got there about 10:30. The place was full of television -people and reporters swarming all over the place and they told me to -wait in the room there and then I went into Chief Gannaway's office -or whatever his name is. He said I was supposed to be questioned by -Mr. Fritz down there but that he wanted to talk to me after they -questioned me up there because they wanted to know more about the G.I. -Forum so I said "I will come back when they get through questioning -me." So I went up there and they told me to wait in an office and so I -waited there for about 30, 40 minutes and, oh, must have been longer -than that, they finally questioned me and they put me in a room and -there was a man from the FBI or Secret Service, I don't recall which -one it was. He was sitting on my right and there was a fellow from -the Dallas Police Department taking a statement and a fellow from the -FBI introduced himself, said I'm so and so, show me his badge and so -forth. The other fellow didn't say who he was or anything, just sat -there and so then they told me to wait there in that room and I did. I -was there for about 45 minutes and then the fellow came back from the -FBI, said "My God, are you still in here?" I said "Yes," he said "How -long you been here?" Here it was about 2 or 3 o'clock. I said "I have -been here since about 11; I haven't eaten lunch or haven't had a drink -of water". You know, I was just there and which he told this fellow, -said "Can't you let him go; he has been here. He has already given his -testimony statement, whatever he is going to give; you should let him -go." This fellow said "No, he got to wait in there" so I had to go -back in there; about 10 or 15 minutes later, they came back and I went -up to the office of Lieutenant Revill and he started asking a lot of -questions about the G.I. Forum, did I know such and such fellow--some -I knew, they had been in the club. Naturally, I knew them though we -weren't intimate friends, some were, some weren't. Then he gave me a -bunch of names, I imagine they were in their so-called subversive files -that they claim they have; of course, I didn't know a lot of them. In -fact, I didn't know most of them. I knew some of the names. I didn't -know some of the names they mentioned are kept in their files or not. -Anyhow, they asked me--I had to--they didn't ask me--I had to just ask -to sign a statement I belonged to the forum and certain members were -charter members of the forum and I said yes, I would sign it. I didn't -see anything wrong with it so I signed it and they told me I could go -home. It was 4:30 or 5 and they asked me if I had a ride home and I -said no. They said "Well, we'll give you a ride home, so one of the -officers there, plainclothes man, drove me home. When I got home, of -course, there were about three or four cars at the house. My wife was -all shook up and she said "My God" she said "Don't you know what they -been saying about you?" I said "No, I don't know what they are saying -about me." She said "Don't you know you been on TV and the news media -across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the Dallas -Police Department claiming that you associate with persons of"--see -if I can quote it right--I was known to associate with persons of -subversive background. - -Mr. BALL. That was on TV? - -Mr. MOLINA. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who put that on TV? - -Mr. MOLINA. It was a statement made by Chief Curry. - -Mr. BALL. By whom? - -Mr. MOLINA. Chief Curry and I says "No, I didn't know anything about -it. I was just being questioned." They said "Well, did you tell them -to release your name?" I said "I don't know who gave my name out, gave -out the information." So, they were very concerned because at first, -I didn't think it was--I figured they would make a retraction and -I would be cleared, so forth and so on and nothing came out on the -radio and nothing was said and I called the Police Department and told -them I wanted to talk to Chief Curry and they said he was busy. I was -talking to, I think someone, fellow named King. He answered the phone -and he said any retraction has to come from Chief Curry. I called the -Associated Press which released the statement to the news media and -they wouldn't give me any satisfaction. They told me I would have to -get in touch with some fellow in New York or something like that, so -that was--I couldn't get any satisfaction. I was accused of something I -didn't know anything about. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ever give you a retraction? - -Mr. MOLINA. No. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now---- - -Mr. MOLINA. And, consequently, well, that happened on November 23d; -my boss was very upset about it. He said that the vice president of -the company, Mr. Campbell, they didn't say anything to me, they didn't -come to me and say "Joe, we will stand by you, we don't believe it." -Nothing was said for about 10 days so I went in and told them, I said, -"You don't have to be afraid, I'm going to get this thing cleared. I -am going to find somebody to clear me of this." They said "You better -do it very fast because the president is very upset about it and we -have been getting a lot of calls and several people calling in and -saying he hires subversives" and so forth and so on. I saw one letter -did say that. It came to them from some fellow said he wasn't going to -do business with that book firm because they hired Communists. I knew -they were probably under pressure. Well, on December 13, they called -me in and said they wanted to talk with me and they told me that due -to automation I was going to have to be replaced. That happened in -December 13, about 3 weeks afterwards so I told them I said "I don't -really think that's the reason why you're letting me go, it's probably -because of this other thing." He said "No, we got automation here, we -are taking too much business in so we have to let you go." No news was -ever given to me there was no machines for replacement, nothing, so I -said--well, I didn't leave until December 30 and got all the routine -work I had been assigned was gradually shifted to another person. I was -there doing nothing. I finally left December 30 and I have received -a letter from a friend in California saying my name was in the paper -stating that I had been labeled as a communist and I got a call from -Florida, from a good friend of mine saying they labeled me a communist -and saying I was a friend of Oswald's. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know him? - -Mr. MOLINA. Oswald? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. MOLINA. No; I had seen him there in the building. I had seen him -but never talked with him or been introduced. - -Mr. BALL. Where are you working now? - -Mr. MOLINA. I am working over here--that's another thing. I couldn't -find a job. Who is going to hire me? So I called this friend of mine -he belonged to the Dads Club where I go to church, Holy Trinity. His -name is Mr. Redman, vice president at Neuhoff's. I called him about a -job and he said "No, I don't have anything in your line of work." I -happened to mention to him I used to do credit union work and at that -time they happened to be looking for a man and that's the reason I -found this particular job. - -Mr. BALL. You are working at Neuhoff's Employees Credit Union? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Are you a bookkeeper; is that what you usually do is -bookkeeping? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pursue it any further; did you file any actions of -any sort? - -Mr. MOLINA. I have an attorney that is working towards something. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work what date---- - -Mr. MOLINA. I went to work in February 1947. - -Mr. BALL. For the Texas School Book Depository at that time. - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes; at that time they were located at 2210 Pacific. - -Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, the place you worked was in the -second floor of this School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes; I was standing on the front steps. - -Mr. BALL. With whom? - -Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there -was Mrs. Sanders. - -Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out -to lunch. - -Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car pass? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots. - -Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound? - -Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the -west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first -shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second -longer than the second and third. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I -didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just -shocked. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, this fellow come to me--Mr. Williams said, somebody -said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't -know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow -said "What can anybody gain by that"; he just shook his head and I -just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was -happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where -the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of -conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody -said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody -else", something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building? - -Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him? - -Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a -police officer but I did see him go inside. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in -the entrance? - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they -secured the building, you know. - -Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go -into the building? - -Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? - -Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. - -Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was -right behind me. - -Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. - -Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. - -Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? - -Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds -afterwards. - -Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before -you saw Truly go in? - -Mr. MOLINA. No. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? - -Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she -came in with this other girl. - -Mr. BALL. What did she say? - -Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both -horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm -sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that -extent. - -Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home? - -Mr. MOLINA. Oh, it must have been around, I would say, I would say it -was about 2, maybe a little before that, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MOLINA. I had seen him in the building, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? - -Mr. MOLINA. No; I never spoke to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him at all on November 22d? - -Mr. MOLINA. I never did see him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building on that day -November 22d? - -Mr. MOLINA. No; like I stated before, I came in at--to work at 7 in the -morning because I had a key and I was on the second floor all the time, -never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like -that. Then I ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs -about 12:15. - -Mr. BALL. Okay, thanks very much, Mr. Molina. This will be written up -for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can -waive your signature, whichever you wish. If you wish to sign it, this -young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read -it, and sign it. - -Mr. MOLINA. I just wanted to state in the record that I want to deny -any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind. - -Mr. BALL. No; there is nobody I ever heard has accused you of anything. - -Mr. MOLINA. I know there's a fella that I talk with that belongs to the -or had worked with the FBI that knows my position in this thing. - -Mr. BALL. I never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in -connection with this matter. - -Mr. MOLINA. In fact, Bill Lowery worked with the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. You don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of -anything. - -Mr. MOLINA. Except the local people here. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your -signature; how do you feel about it? It's your option; you can do -either way. - -Mr. MOLINA. Well, I would like to. - -Mr. BALL. See it and sign it? - -Mr. MOLINA. See it and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. She will notify you then. She will tell you when to come in. - -Mr. MOLINA. Thanks very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY - -The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Jack Edwin Dougherty. - -Mr. BALL. And your address? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. 1827 South Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Forty. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Here in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Sunset High School. - -Mr. BALL. You went through Sunset High School? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? About? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, 1937. - -Mr. BALL. 1937? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work -in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services -in October--October 24, 1942. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact. - -Mr. BALL. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the -War, was it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do during the service--during your period in the -service? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say just about a little bit of -everything, from guard duty to---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any active service? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they -said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they -said, they told me at the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever leave the United States during the War? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in -Indiana up there--Seymour, Ind. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go from there in the service? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I stayed there until I got discharged. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no. - -Mr. BALL. Or to the South Seas? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed in this country all the time? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. You never had any? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical -treatment or anything of that sort? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. None at all? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of the Army? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out -of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put -my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book -Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the -Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since. - -Mr. BALL. And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at -the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. September 17, 1940. - -Mr. BALL. 1940 what? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would -be---- - -Mr. BALL. That would be 1952, wouldn't it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--that's 1952. - -Mr. BALL. 1952? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; that's right, to be exact. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do between the time you got out of the service -and 1952? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed at home? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you live with your father and mother? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever been married? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. And you still live with your father and mother? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas -School Book Depository in the last few years? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh--shipping clerk. - -Mr. BALL. And what kind of work is that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the -second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the--they are -orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and -outside of doing little odd jobs besides that--that's it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald that worked at -the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe -nobody knew him too well. You might say he wouldn't have too much to -say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself, and I'll be frank with -you, I just flat didn't know him. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was -shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got there--it was after 7 o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. BALL. Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the -men get there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say, I have a little--extra chores to do. - -Mr. BALL. You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years. - -Mr. BALL. That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you did get there about 7 that morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra -chores--what are those extra chores? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. -In other words, the air pressure is up to where--up to 40 pounds so -that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that -alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call -me. - -Mr. BALL. What is the ADT? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's that--I don't know too much about it--it has -something to do with the alarm system they have got down there. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the pressure, do you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that a fire-alarm system? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--you could call it that. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what else do you do there early in the morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is -no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else you do? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; I believe that just about covers it. - -Mr. BALL. What time do you usually go to lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon. - -Mr. BALL. Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And where do you usually eat your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they have got what they call a domino room in -there and I usually eat it in there. - -Mr. BALL. You usually eat your lunch in the domino room? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And how long do you take for lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, from 12 to 12:45. - -Mr. BALL. Forty-five minutes? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you always take a full hour? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I usually do. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember the day of November 22, 1963; you do, -don't you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The day that the President was shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you went to work that day? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--let's see--it was 12:30. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that particular morning--let's see, we didn't go -back. - -Mr. BALL. No; I mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in -the morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was 8 o'clock when we were actually started to work. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get to the building? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. At a quarter to 7. - -Mr. BALL. At a quarter to 7? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers that you got there about 7 o'clock. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I mean, inside the building. - -Mr. BALL. Inside the building? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when I got inside the building it was 7 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. You parked your car? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't have a car--I have to ride the bus. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come to work that morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when he first come into the door. - -Mr. BALL. When he came in the door? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him come in the door? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands or arms? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, not that I could see of. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day was that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. That was about 8 o'clock? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What door did he come in? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, he came in the back door. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you then? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was--sitting on top of the wrapping table. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Federal -Bureau of Investigation and to a man by the name of Ellington, or a Mr. -Anderton, the day after--the 23d of November? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I talked to so many of them--it is kind of hard to -remember. - -Mr. BALL. And there is a statement that they took when they talked to -you and in it you said, "I recall vaguely, having seen Lee Oswald, when -he came to work at about 8 a.m. today." - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I did--that morning. - -Mr. BALL. That seems to be dated the 22d day of November 1963. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. The full statement is, "I am employed by the Texas School -Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as an order filler, and reside -at 1827 South Marsalis Street, Dallas, Tex." - -Did you tell them that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. "I started to work today, 11-22-63, at about 7 a.m. o'clock." - -Did you tell them that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, -when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today." - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that -morning when he came to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you -this way--you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came -in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye--that's the -reason why I said it that way. - -Mr. BALL. Did he come in with anybody? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. He was alone? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; he was alone. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall him having anything in his hand? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't see anything, if he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you -would remember whether he did or didn't? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I believe I can--yes, sir--I'll put it this way; I -didn't see anything in his hands at the time. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in -his hands? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I would say that--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or, are you guessing? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. You saw him come in the door? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The back door on the first floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was in the back door. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That -back door would be the first floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And it opens where? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. On the back dock--on the back dock side over there. - -Mr. BALL. That would be what direction from the first floor--what wall -of the first floor--north? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, to be frank with you--I don't know -which one it would be. - -Mr. BALL. Is there only one back door? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; there is only one back door. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him again that morning? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; just one more time. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. On the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was about 11 o'clock--that was the last time I saw -him. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing up there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some -stock--as far as I could tell. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock also. - -Mr. BALL. And were there some other workmen up there at the time? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Not that I know of. - -Mr. BALL. Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, -Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that -morning--laying floor on the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; they were laying floor--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And were they there at the time you were there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes, sir; they were there--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the same time you saw Oswald? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; just about that time. - -Mr. BALL. And how long were you on the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, just long enough to get some stock. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went to the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also -on the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Then, just about that time--I thought I heard---- - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you go to lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was 12 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here -dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William -O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey -Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the -sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't see him again after that, is that your -testimony? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the truth? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that -you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were -working on the sixth floor. Were you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; we were working on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. You weren't helping the men lay floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. To what floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. The first floor. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get down there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--used the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down alone or with someone? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went down alone. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. In the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what time did you go back to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, at 12:30. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a -motorcade that noon? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they said something about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you intend to go out and watch him? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched -him but the steps were so crowded--there was no way in the world I -could get out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it--did you go out and take a look at -it, or didn't you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you -finished your lunch, didn't you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished -your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir--just a short length of time. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then, I went back to work. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let me see--oh, up to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About what time? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was about 12:40--it was about 12:40. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard any shots before that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I heard one--it sounded like a backfire. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard that shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was on the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor -or the sixth floor to go back to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go -down to eat lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Yes; and then what happened? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---- - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you hear the shots before or after you had -your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Before--before I ate my lunch. - -Mr. BALL. You heard shots before you ate your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see--yes, I believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to -work that day? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the -22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of -Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the -first floor to eat your lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And that you went back to work? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, -that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you -arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get -some stock? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right--it sounded like a car backfiring. - -Mr. BALL. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; that was the only one I heard. - -Mr. BALL. You only heard one? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And where did it sound like it came from? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere. - -Mr. BALL. From overhead? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get to the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Elevator. - -Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this -side--the one on this side is the one I took. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," -doesn't mean much when it's written down. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I know it. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side -elevator? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. East side. - -Mr. BALL. Is it the one that you punch a button on? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or the one that you use a control on? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It's the one you push a button on. - -Mr. BALL. The one you push a button on? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I believe that is the west side, isn't it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I believe it is. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that's the one you took up? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you take that--to what floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I took it up to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth -floor, I came back down to the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do on the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got some stock. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened then? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise--it sounded -like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I -asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the -President been shot?" He said, "Yes." - -Mr. BALL. You didn't say--did you say, "Has the President been -shot?"--you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor -and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud -noise. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I asked him that too. - -Mr. BALL. And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you -that somebody had just shot the President; is that right? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot -first--you or Eddie Piper? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Eddie Piper. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't know that at the time. - -Mr. BALL. When is the first time you heard that the President had been -shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. When Eddie told me that. - -Mr. BALL. Eddie told you that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation -that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it -appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell -where--you told him that on the 19th; did you tell him that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you -told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderton that you heard "a loud -explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor -above me." - -Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from -the next floor above you, or didn't you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car -backfiring. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor -above you, or didn't you tell them that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. You did not tell them that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did it sound like it came from the floor above you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at the time it did--yes. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me this--when you heard that explosion or whatever -it was--that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor--tell me -exactly where you were? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator--the -west side of the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what were you doing? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I came on back downstairs. - -Mr. BALL. How did you come downstairs? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I used that push button elevator on the west side. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I didn't hear anybody yell. - -Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men--I imagine it was who it was--he -showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I -told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know -where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking -for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun -and shells. - -Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found -the shotgun and shells? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth -floor, which I didn't find. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a gun around there? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I sure didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building that day? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did. - -Mr. BALL. Who said that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw -him carrying a fairly good-sized package. - -Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was--the day after it happened. - -Mr. BALL. Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the -shots? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I'm positive. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't see nobody--there wasn't nobody on the -fifth floor at all--it was just myself. - -Mr. BALL. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had -been on the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then you went down to the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, -before you went to the fifth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---- - -Mr. BALL. That was in the morning, wasn't it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That wasn't after lunch, was it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was before lunch--it was before lunch. - -Mr. BALL. You think it was before lunch you heard the shot? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. I believe it was--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were alone, were you? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up and -if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you -can waive your signature. - -What do you want to do? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, whatever you want to do--it doesn't make any -difference. - -Mr. BALL. Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, if you've got time I'll sign it now. - -Mr. BALL. Well, we have to write it up--this has to be written up and -it will be so that you can read it. This young lady will notify you and -you can come down and read it over and sign it. - -Will you do that? - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. All right. - -Mr. BALL. And we will mark these statements as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. -A, B, and C, and attach them to your deposition. - -Thank you very much, and goodby. - -Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's quite all right--thank you. - -(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dougherty Exhibits -Nos. A, B, and C, for identification.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER - -The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 8, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name please, Mr. Piper? - -Mr. PIPER. Eddie Piper. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your address? - -Mr. PIPER. 1507-1/2 McCoy. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me, Mr. Piper, where you were born and raised. - -Mr. PIPER. In Travis County. - -Mr. BALL. Texas? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. PIPER. I went to school at Manor, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. How far of school did you go? - -Mr. PIPER. Eighth grade. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? - -Mr. PIPER. I went to work then. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? - -Mr. PIPER. I went to work doing harvest work, some in oil field in -Chickasha, Okla., and done farm work. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in the Army? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. PIPER. 56. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, I would say I have been working for them about 4 or 5 -years--I'm not sure--I don't know exactly. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? - -Mr. PIPER. Janitor. - -Mr. BALL. Have you been janitor ever since you were employed? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Oswald, that worked -there? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; I know of him. - -Mr. BALL. You knew of him? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know him personally? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that -sort? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember? - -Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and -he would just keep walking. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you remember that day, don't you? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day? - -Mr. PIPER. 10 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. That was your usual time to go to work? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And, did you see Oswald that morning? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor filling orders. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day? - -Mr. PIPER. You mean all day--the rest of the day? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. PIPER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him? - -Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock? - -Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him--"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll -go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"--he mumbled something--I don't know -whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off -of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor? - -Mr. PIPER. No, not the first window--but on the first floor about the -second window on the first floor. I was intending to sit there so I -could see the parade because the street was so crowded with people--I -didn't see anything. - -Mr. BALL. You said you sat at the second window--that would be what -window from the corner? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, from the front door, you know where the front door -is--going back right down Elm, it's the second window from the corner. - -Mr. BALL. You say you sat down there? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you sit on? - -Mr. PIPER. On a box. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see out the window? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see -anything--too many people. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch there? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by? - -Mr. PIPER. Now, I don't know--I was sitting there, I'm sure. - -Mr. BALL. When the President went by, where were you sitting? - -Mr. PIPER. Probably sitting there in the same place. - -Mr. BALL. Did you move from there from the time you had your lunch -until the President went by? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, I moved--when there was a shot, I moved. - -Mr. BALL. When there was a shot you moved? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. From the time you had your lunch until the shot, did you move? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were at that window all of the time? - -Mr. PIPER. All the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go up on the sixth floor? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there at any time that day? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you above the first floor that day up to the time of the -shot? - -Mr. PIPER. Before the shot? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. PIPER. At 11 o'clock I went to the fourth floor to pick up. - -Mr. BALL. You went to the fourth floor? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, at 11 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. And you worked there for how long? - -Mr. PIPER. I would just take about 10 or 15 minutes to pick up--not -quite that long, to pick up the mail and stuff in the fourth floor -office. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. PIPER. I came back down to the third floor and picked up and from -there to the second and picked up and on to the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. Is that what you usually did--was pick up? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; every day. - -Mr. BALL. Do you do that every day? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You pick up mail? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You pick up mail from what offices? - -Mr. PIPER. From--what the name of the office is? - -Mr. BALL. The different offices? - -Mr. PIPER. Oh, I pick up mail first--on the fourth floor is Scott -Pharmacy, and I come down on the third floor and I pick up there in -the hall, you know, they have a hallway there and they put it out on -the table--the packages and the mail, and I pick it up there unless -they've got a name on the boards to see them in the office and then I -go in the office. That's on the third floor. I come down on the second -floor and I pick up for Southwestern. I goes in the office and that's -the only office I go in there at Southwestern. Like I say--unless there -is anything on the board that says see Lon Cunningham, and then I go -in there. That's on the second floor, and from there back down to the -first floor, and I unloads on the table on the first floor and that's -when I'm through--I don't go back no more. - -Mr. BALL. You do that every day? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. At a certain time? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. At what time? - -Mr. PIPER. At 11 and 3. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that day, November 22, 1963, you picked up the mail on -the fourth floor at 11 did you? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then came to the third? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then to the second? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what time did you come to the first floor? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, it was close to--around about--it must have been about -11:30--about 11:30 when I came back. - -Mr. BALL. Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, -from 11:30 until 12? - -Mr. PIPER. No. - -Mr. BALL. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you -thought you would have your lunch? - -Mr. PIPER. Just about 12 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. And do you remember exactly what he said? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was -muttering out something--I didn't know whether he said he was going up -or going out. - -Mr. BALL. He said something like that? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes--something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see what he did? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see where he went? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You told me that you went to the window? - -Mr. PIPER. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. This is the second window to the right? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Of the front door--that would be looking toward Elm Street, -is that right? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And were you sitting there when you heard the shot? - -Mr. PIPER. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard? - -Mr. PIPER. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off--the one -that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make -coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and -before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the -people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, -and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone. - -Mr. BALL. You say you heard one shot--you heard two shots and you got -up and then what happened, where did you go? - -Mr. PIPER. I came out to the end of the counter where they make coffee -there by the stand. - -Mr. BALL. You said you did it so you could see out better? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was--when all this -happened--to see what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. What time was it? - -Mr. PIPER. It was about between 12:30--between 12:27 and -12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember. - -Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir--I couldn't, not for sure. - -Mr. BALL. The direction? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look out the window later? - -Mr. PIPER. No more--no, sir; I didn't go back to any window. - -Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly? - -Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it -was, but another fellow was with him. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you? - -Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee. - -Mr. BALL. What did they do? - -Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, -"I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly." - -They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about -that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor? - -Mr. PIPER. No--no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You never did--either before or after the shots? - -Mr. PIPER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that day, you went over to the sheriff's office and made -a statement, didn't you? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir--no, sir; not that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you the next day? - -Mr. PIPER. Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sheriff's department? - -Mr. PIPER. I went to the county--yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell them at any time that you saw Lee about 12 -o'clock? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And that Lee said, "I'm going up to eat?" - -Mr. PIPER. He said either "up" or "out"--that's the way I reported it. - -Mr. BALL. That's what you told them? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on that day, did you tell them that the shots that you -heard seemed to come from inside the building? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You did tell them that? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was that your best impression then? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; they seemed like they did come from the building, you -know, by the vibration of that window--it seemed like nobody had shot -in the window from the outside--it might have been coming from the -building--is what I figured. - -Mr. BALL. You told them that day that you thought it came from inside -the building? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. From inside the building? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you made to the sheriff's department, -I'll show it to you--that's a copy there and is that your signature? - -Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's my signature. - -Mr. BALL. We'll attach that as Exhibit A to your deposition. - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Piper Exhibit No. A," for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and you can come down here -and look it over and sign it, if you wish. - -Mr. PIPER. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Or, you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Do you -have any choice--which had you rather do? - -Mr. PIPER. Well, what is supposed to be done--I don't really quite -understand? - -Mr. BALL. You can do it either way. You see, we are going to write it -up--this young lady will write it up and if you want to come down and -sign it, you can come down and sign it, or you don't need to sign it. -You can waive your signature and we will send it on as it is written -up. It is up to you which you would rather do. - -Mr. PIPER. Well, I can sign it, but I don't know when I am supposed to -come back to sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you will be notified. - -Mr. PIPER. All right. I'll do that. - -Mr. BALL. All right, she will call you and ask you to come back and -sign it. - -Mr. PIPER. All right, I'll come back and sign it. - -Mr. BALL. All right, thank you very much. - -Mr. PIPER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MISS VICTORIA ELIZABETH ADAMS - -The testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams was taken at 2:15 p.m., -on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please. Do -you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Miss ADAMS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Would you please state your name? - -Miss ADAMS. Victoria Elizabeth Adams. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you known as Vickie Adams? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Miss ADAMS. 4906 Wenonah, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Miss ADAMS. I am employed as an office survey representative. - -Mr. BELIN. By whom? - -Miss ADAMS. Scott Foresman Co. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you work? - -Miss ADAMS. On the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Where? - -Miss ADAMS. 411 Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. That is at the corner of Elm and Houston? - -Miss ADAMS. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. I might ask how old are you? - -Miss ADAMS. Twenty-three. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born originally? In Texas? - -Miss ADAMS. San Francisco, Calif. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in San Francisco? - -Miss ADAMS. I attended part of my grammar school and high school in San -Francisco. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you graduated from high school? - -Miss ADAMS. In San Francisco, that's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Miss ADAMS. Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, -Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do from there? - -Miss ADAMS. I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate -Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was -employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I -obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here. - -Mr. BELIN. And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes; for 1 year. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went to work for Scott Foresman? - -Miss ADAMS. I went to work for Scott Foresman. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you at work on November 22, 1963? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you aware of the fact that the President's motorcade -was going to go right by your building? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you learn of this information? - -Miss ADAMS. Through newspaper media and also conversation. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when you first read about it in the papers? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it have been before November 22d? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the motorcade passed? - -Miss ADAMS. I was at the---- - -Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside the building? - -Miss ADAMS. I was inside the building. - -Mr. BELIN. What floor? - -Miss ADAMS. Fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade through a window? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometimes that is kind of complicated to try and pick out -which window if you are counting from the right or left, so I am going -to count from the east side of the building to the west side of the -building. - -Now the windows are separate windows, but they are kind of in pairs, so -to speak. Were you standing on the first pair of windows, either one of -those two windows? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Counting from the east side, were you standing in the second -pair of windows? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of -either of those windows? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now of that third pair, from the east side, would it have -been the east window or the west window? - -Miss ADAMS. The west window. - -Mr. BELIN. So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in -single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth -window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that -correct? - -Miss ADAMS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. With whom? - -Miss ADAMS. I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and -Dorothy May Garner. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you -heard? - -Miss ADAMS. I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from -Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and -apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because -he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had -a very good view of both of them. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come -directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or -not, if you can remember? - -Miss ADAMS. I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Miss ADAMS. And from our vantage point we were able to see what the -President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that -would attract women's attention. Then we heard--then we were obstructed -from the view. - -Mr. BELIN. By what? - -Miss ADAMS. A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a -second shot, and then a third shot. - -It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed -as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. -Possibly because of the report. - -And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the -back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley -and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston -Street dock. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you -mean now you were on the way out? - -Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anyone going along with you? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; Sandra Styles. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into -the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which -would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth -floor, is that correct? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got into the stockroom, where did you go? - -Miss ADAMS. I went to the back stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth -floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Those stairs would be in the northwest corner of the -building, is that correct? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you -went down the stairs? - -Miss. ADAMS. I was running. We were running. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of shoes did you have on? - -Miss ADAMS. Three-inch heels. - -Mr. BELIN. You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did -you encounter anyone? - -Miss ADAMS. Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the -stockroom, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth -floor other than the person you were with? - -Miss ADAMS. Outside of our office employees; no. - -Mr. BELIN. Would these office employees that you might have seen, all -be women? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you got to the stairs and you started going down the -stairs. You went from the fourth floor to the third floor? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct? - -Mr. BELIN. Anyone on the stairs then? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth -floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running? - -Miss ADAMS. The elevator was not moving. - -Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was not moving on some other floor? - -Miss ADAMS. Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and -this is evidenced because of a wooden grate. - -Mr. BELIN. By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you -have to lift up to get on the elevator? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look to see if the elevator was moving? - -Miss ADAMS. It was not; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It was not moving? - -Miss ADAMS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been -located? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. As you got to the third door, did you take a look at the -elevator again at all, or not, if you remember? - -Miss ADAMS. I can't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see -anyone on the third floor? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the -third to the second? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see -anyone by the second floor? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down -the stairs towards the first floor? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see -anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Who did you see? - -Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor? - -Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street -dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, -so I don't know how you would describe that. - -Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the -Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where -you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, -and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that -correct? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I have a document here called Commission's Exhibit No. -496, which includes a diagram of the first door, and there is a No. 7 -and a circle on it, and I have pointed to a place marked No. 7 on the -diagram. Is that correct? - -Miss ADAMS. That is approximate. - -Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got -to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to -the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did -you see any other employees there? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other people prior to the time you saw them? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down -the stairs, did you hear anyone using the stairs? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the -superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. What about any motorcycle police officers? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and -Mr. Lovelady? - -Miss ADAMS. I said I believed the President was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what they said? - -Miss ADAMS. Nothing. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Miss ADAMS. I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston -Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which -is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct? - -And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go from there? - -Miss ADAMS. I proceeded--which way is east and west? - -Mr. BELIN. East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards -the railroad tracks. - -You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston -Street? - -Miss ADAMS. I went west towards the tracks. - -Mr. BELIN. How far west did you go? - -Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there -was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." -And I said, "But I work here." - -And he said, "That is tough, get back." - -I said, "Well, was the President shot?" - -And he said, "I don't know. Go back." - -And I said, "All right." - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Miss ADAMS. I went back, only I went southwest. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you -come back the same entrance you went out? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You went back in through the front entrance, through the -front of the building? - -Miss ADAMS. Well, I didn't go back in right away. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that -goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the -freeway. Did you go back either of those streets? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the -building. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Miss ADAMS. When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed -several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was -standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with -me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" - -And she said, "I don't know." - -And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot. - -There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm -directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there -to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots -had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or -the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open -window on the fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they say second floor or second floor from the top? - -Miss ADAMS. It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better -go back into the building, and going up the stairs---- - -Mr. BELIN. Now at this time when you went back into the building, were -there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people -out? - -Miss ADAMS. There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was -prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I -told him I worked there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he let you come back in? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Miss ADAMS. Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger -elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the -stairs to the second floor. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of -the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken -to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator? - -Miss ADAMS. By the passenger elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Do those stairs go above floor 2? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir; they didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the second floor? - -Miss ADAMS. I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and -just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating -there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went -out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one -on the northwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the -stairs or the other one? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes; the one nearest the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Miss ADAMS. I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second -floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed -they were plainclothesmen. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Miss ADAMS. I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but -it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we -went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time -sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time -between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the -building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you -don't have one. - -Miss ADAMS. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was -running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of -the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the -report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and -returned to the building. - -Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were -fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway? - -Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to -get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs? - -Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, -because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult. - -Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you to get from the window to -the bottom of the stairs on the first floor? - -Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most. - -Mr. BELIN. So you think that from the time you left the window on the -fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the -first floor, was approximately 1 minute? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither -Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. You heard no one else running down the stairs? - -Miss ADAMS. Correct. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed -to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. -Lovelady? - -Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a -place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east -elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady? - -Miss ADAMS. I saw them there. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean; you saw them? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to -the bottom of the first floor? - -Miss ADAMS. Definitely. - -Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or did you know Lee Harvey Oswald either by -sight or by name? - -Miss ADAMS. I didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald, per se. I didn't know his -name. I recognized him after I saw him on television, as having been -with some men, but I had no dealing with him. - -Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean having been employed with some men by the -Texas School Book Depository? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever -encounter Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Miss ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that -might be relevant to anything connected with the assassination? - -Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, -there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about -from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, -and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we -were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was -standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing -or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent. - -Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you -left? - -Miss ADAMS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. That is helpful information. Is there any other information -that you have that could be relevant? - -Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston -and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and -when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because -he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we -noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was -asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe -a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked -very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby. - -And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses -to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I -don't know whether that is relevant or what. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was -this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw -this? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else? - -Miss ADAMS. That is all, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to -read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you -can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it -directly to us. Do you have any preference? - -Miss ADAMS. I think I will let you use your own discretion. - -Mr. BELIN. It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any -difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip -down here. - -Miss ADAMS. That is all right. - -Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for your cooperation. We know that it -has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer? - -Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GENEVA L. HINE - -The testimony of Geneva L. Hine was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear the testimony you will give the Commission will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss HINE. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Miss HINE. Geneva L. Hine. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live. - -Miss HINE. 2305 Oakdale Road in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born -and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done. - -Miss. HINE. I was born and raised in Martinsville, Ind., and I -graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same -town. I attended the Ball State Teachers' College in Muncie, Ind., -and I attended Metropolitan Bible Institute in Suffern, N.Y., and I -received my Bachelor of Science theology degree from Assembly of God -College in Waxahachie, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Miss HINE. Oh, I have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the -job I have now. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go to work at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Miss HINE. In December 1956. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there? - -Miss HINE. I have the credit desk. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in November, November 22, 1963, where was your desk; in -what part of the building? - -Miss HINE. My desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along -by the corridor. - -Mr. BALL. Did you spend most of your time at your desk? - -Miss HINE. At that time? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; at that time. - -Miss HINE. No, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and -see. - -Mr. BALL. I mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a -desk job? - -Miss HINE. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go in the other floors of the building any? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; as my duties necessitated I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first meet him? - -Miss HINE. I never met him to know his name but I saw him every day. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? - -Miss HINE. Downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want -to call it. - -Mr. BALL. The first floor? - -Miss HINE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him on any other floors? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I saw him on the second floor about noontime -almost every day. He would come in and ask for change, for a dime or -quarter. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him use any part of the second floor? - -Miss HINE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and I wouldn't -have seen it. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the coke machine? - -Miss HINE. Out in the little lunchroom back of our office. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you? - -Miss HINE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He never replied to you? - -Miss HINE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him smile or laugh? - -Miss HINE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of an expression did he have on his face most of -the time? - -Miss HINE. I describe it as being stoic. - -Mr. BALL. That's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile. - -Miss HINE. It was just---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever mention this to any of the people around there -about Oswald? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I mentioned it to Mr. Shelley. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you -have working down here" and I said that just as a matter of slang -because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking -to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak -to me because I have to go down there to pick up the little "comp" or -gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, -say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just -made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many -times and he never answered. - -Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say? - -Miss HINE. He said that was just his way. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to -be a motorcade or parade come by your building? - -Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you find that out? - -Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I -cannot remember. - -Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact? - -Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the -office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the -President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions -and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they -couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the -telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I had -previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building -before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought -nothing about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did they all go out? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on -that second floor office? - -Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because -he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was -about there. - -Mr. BALL. Then he went out? - -Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will -go out for 5 minutes." - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams. - -Mr. BALL. He works in the office, too? - -Miss HINE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then -we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system. - -Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard? - -Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time? - -Miss HINE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I was alone until the lights all went out and the -phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one -was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window -in our office. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look out? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston -Street. - -Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left -and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw -him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I -saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I -saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming -up was when I heard the shots. - -Mr. BALL. How many did you hear? - -Miss HINE. Three. - -Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building. - -Mr. BALL. How do you know that? - -Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the -explosion coming in. - -Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so -terrific. - -Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the -next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course -I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people -running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people -falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm. - -Mr. BALL. You could see--could you see any part of Elm? - -Miss HINE. East, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across -east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was -if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into -the foyer. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That opens on---- - -Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---- - -Mr. BALL. Steps lead down? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the -elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right -and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing -company. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get -in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that -had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know -if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back -to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern -Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this -was because those windows face out. - -Mr. BALL. On to Elm? - -Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I -could hear her but she didn't answer the door. - -Mr. BALL. Was the door locked? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was which company? - -Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co. - -Mr. BALL. Did you call to her? - -Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer -me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They -have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. -I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I -turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door. - -Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office? - -Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the -telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come -in. - -Mr. BALL. Did they did come in rapidly? - -Miss HINE. They did come in rapidly. - -Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when -I came back in right then. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about -four or five people that came in. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went -to the telephone? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that -there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of -those. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she -didn't see anybody there. - -Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the -phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody -was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he -said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it" and so I was busy -with the phone. - -Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately -busy with the phone? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in? - -Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have -come in at. - -Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him? - -Miss HINE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? - -Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and -they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? - -Miss HINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who were they? - -Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. -Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted -for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; -which do you prefer? Do you have any choice? - -Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it. - -Mr. BALL. Prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform -you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it. - -Miss HINE. Okay. - -Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. - -Miss HINE. You are very welcome. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MISS DORIS BURNS - -The testimony of Miss Doris Burns was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 7, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn. - -Miss BURNS. (complying). - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss BURNS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. What is your name, please? - -Miss BURNS. Doris Burns. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Miss BURNS. 2617 Shelby, Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Miss BURNS. I am a correspondent for the Macmillan Co. - -Mr. BALL. Where is your office? - -Miss BURNS. In the Texas School Book Depository Building on the third -floor. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born -and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been. - -Miss BURNS. Well, I was born in Tyler, Tex., and I graduated from high -school here in Dallas and I worked many years for lawyers here. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work? - -Miss BURNS. Well, I was just a legal secretary and worked for Vanette -Hosiery Mills, secretary to the president. They are not here any more, -I don't think. After that I worked for a geologist. - -Mr. BALL. Most of your work has been secretarial, has it? - -Miss BURNS. Yes, but at Macmillan I mostly compose my own letters. - -Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Macmillan? - -Miss BURNS. April 19, 1955. Am I too fast? - -Mr. BALL. She can write as fast as you talk. - -Miss BURNS. That's wonderful. - -Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. - -Miss BURNS. Let's see, I've forgotten what else you wanted to know. - -Mr. BALL. Well, first of all, you went to work in 1955? - -Miss BURNS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the office of the Macmillan Co.? - -Miss BURNS. Well, at that time it was on Ross and Akard; now---- - -Mr. BALL. Where was it in November 1963? - -Miss BURNS. At Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. What part of the building? - -Miss BURNS. On the third floor, room 301. - -Mr. BALL. Are there any windows in those offices? - -Miss BURNS. Yes; they have some windows; they face the west, I guess -you would say. They don't overlook the route of the President's---- - -Mr. BALL. Do they or do they not overlook Elm Street? - -Miss BURNS. They do not overlook Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. They overlook the railroad yards, do they? - -Miss BURNS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what were you doing that day? - -Miss BURNS. I was listening to the radio as I worked. - -Mr. BALL. About noon, did you go to lunch? - -Miss BURNS. Well, I had lunch at the office and then I didn't intend -to go see the President, didn't have any desire to but I left about--I -don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when I left they said on the -radio that he--that the motorcade was coming up, I believe it was Cedar -Springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that -he was going about 5 miles an hour so everybody could see him. Well, -thinking he was going that slowly, I thought I had plenty of time, so I -walked up to Sanger's. - -Mr. BALL. To where? - -Miss BURNS. Sanger's. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that? - -Miss BURNS. It's about four blocks up Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. Which way on Elm--east? - -Miss BURNS. East; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the -street; nothing else down there. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened? - -Miss BURNS. I bought some Kleenex and came back, and everybody was out -on the steps to look, but I didn't stop. I went on back to the office. - -Mr. BALL. That is the third floor? - -Miss BURNS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was anybody in the office? - -Miss BURNS. Yes; Mrs. Case hadn't ever gone out. She was there. I -believe she was the only one. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Miss BURNS. I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that -he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so -since he was that close, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out -the window. I didn't care enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will -go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if -he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around -there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office -closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in -there, so then I started down the hall to Allyn and Bacon. As I went -down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, -I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, -know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they -all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that. - -I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at -the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him -if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, -my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of -course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or -something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said -"Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had -the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing, so I said -"Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back -out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got -hurt." - -Mr. BALL. You heard how many shots? - -Miss BURNS. One. - -Mr. BALL. Just one? - -Miss BURNS. It must have been the last one because I didn't hear any -more. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any idea where it was coming from? - -Miss BURNS. Well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. You see, -I was going towards Houston Street. I was facing east and it sounded to -me as if it came toward my back. - -Mr. BALL. You were in the building? - -Miss BURNS. Yes; I was in the building. - -Mr. BALL. Walking down the hall? - -Miss BURNS. Walking down the hall going towards Allyn and Bacon. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that? - -Miss BURNS. I came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a -few minutes, why, they told it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Miss BURNS. I rode on the elevator with him one time. - -Mr. BALL. That's all? - -Miss BURNS. But I didn't know who he was--about a week before. - -Mr. BALL. You never talked to him? - -Miss BURNS. I never talked to him. - -Mr. BALL. Who were you with at the time this happened? - -Miss BURNS. The Macmillan Co. - -Mr. BALL. Who was in the office with you? - -Miss BURNS. Mrs. Case, but I couldn't see her. - -Mr. BALL. She was in the same office? - -Miss BURNS. I have a private office. She was around the corner where -her office is. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Case? - -Miss BURNS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time? - -Miss BURNS. Yes, but I didn't know---- - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Miss BURNS. It was after that; I went to the restroom. - -Mr. BALL. How long after? - -Miss BURNS. I imagine maybe it was 25 minutes. I imagine it was the -policeman or somebody; of course, I don't know who it was. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Miss Burns. This will be written up and -you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your -signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. Which would -you rather do? - -Miss BURNS. I can waive signature if that is all right. - -Mr. BALL. Fine, thank you very much, Miss Burns. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARY E. BLEDSOE - -The testimony of Mary E. Bledsoe was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 2, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, -David W. Belin, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe was accompanied by her -attorney, Miss Melody June Douthit. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mrs. Bledsoe, please. Will you raise -your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you -are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I do. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Mary E. Bledsoe. - -Mr. BALL. And your residence? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. 621 North Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, you received a letter from the counsel for the -Commission asking you to be here today, didn't you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you received that what date? March 26, or was it March 27? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. When? This first time? - -Miss DOUTHIT. No, back. - -Mr. BALL. I mean the letter your attorney just showed me. Seventeenth -of March? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And you have come down here in response to that letter, -haven't you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present -at this time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You've been asked to give testimony in this matter which -concerns an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, -and certain facts which you have, which I believe that you knew of, and -we are going to ask you questions about it. That is the general subject -of the investigation. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify, are you not? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And give us as much help as you can? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What is your--you have given us your address, haven't you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something, briefly, about your past life? -Where you were born and what your education was and what your -occupation has been? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I was born in the country. Town of about 12 miles from -Corsicanna, Tex. My father was a doctor down there, and I was a second -child; I have a brother older than I am. And then I moved to Ennis, -and then come to Dallas and lived here until I was a little girl, 4 or -5 years old, then I went back down to Ennis and my father practiced -medicine in Ennis, Tex., and then about--I married then when I was 17, -and then I moved around quite a little while I was married, but--and -then my husband and I, we had trouble, and I divorced him in--oh, about -in 1925, and I raised my two children by myself, and I have been in the -place where I live 24 years, and over on the back, I was--I have been -here 43 years in the neighborhood, and I raised both of my boys, and -they are grown. - -Mr. BALL. Your occupation has been that of a housewife? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. Well, I had rented rooms, but I had some money my -father had given me. I had some money from him. - -Mr. BALL. Your present address, you rent rooms, do you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I do, now. I have just started in September again. -My son left home, you see, and I started---- - -Mr. BALL. That was September of 1963? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How large a house is that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is all on one floor. And I have four bedrooms, -but I rent three. - -Mr. BALL. In September of 1963, you were living there alone, were you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son was living there. - -Mr. BALL. And he left? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Did you rent rooms before your son left your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see, now, oh, yes; uh-huh, in September I---- - -Mr. BALL. Except his bedroom? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. When he left you rented another bedroom, did you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well yes; I am trying to. Haven't got it rented. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever rent a room in your home to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me about the first time that you ever saw him. -What the date was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. The first time I ever saw him or heard of him, I was in -the backyard doing a lot of yardwork. I come around the house and he -was standing on the porch, and he said, "Do you have a room for rent?" - -I had a "for rent" sign out. I said, "Yes" and he said, "May I see it?" - -And I wanted--"Yes"; and then I was trying to size him up to get in -that room, and--in the house, and I said, "Are you married?" - -And he said, "Yes; I am married. I just want this for a short time. My -wife lives at Irving." - -And then we got inside the house and he had a thing where -this--pictures of his wife and baby, and he said he was in the Marine -Corps, and I tried to be nice to him, and so, he paid me $7, and---- - -Mr. BALL. Then did he tell you what his name was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. His name was Oswald, and he put it on this thing, and my -son took it and sold it. - -Mr. BALL. You said he put it on this thing? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. This right here. - -Mr. BALL. What is, "this thing"? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Calendar. - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Mary, why don't you pull up your chair and be comfortable -while you are doing this. Now, you are all right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you have a calendar here? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is my calendar. - -Mr. BALL. That is the calendar for December 1963, and I notice it has -dates and names and dates. Is that the way you keep books on your rooms? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I don't now. I did then, because I just had -started. The first one I got was in September. - -Mr. BALL. September of 1963? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. He put his name on the calendar? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, got it in September. He got it, my son sold it for -$5, and I didn't even know that he tore that out. - -Mr. BALL. Now, let me see here in this calendar. It runs from January -1963, to December of 1963, but October of 1963, has been torn out? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. And he said his name was Lee Oswald was what his -name was, and I said, "Well, I can't think of that name Oswald, I will -call you Lee." - -So, he put it down on the 4th. Just rented for a week, you see, the 7th. - -Mr. BALL. You said the 4th? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the 7th. - -Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October? That is the first day you ever saw him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Ever saw him. - -Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October you rented the room to him, didn't you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And is that the date that he put his name on the calendar? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is the day. - -Mr. BALL. He paid you $7? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. $7 in money. - -Mr. BALL. That was the rental? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. For one room. - -Mr. BALL. For one room for 1 week? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When did he move into the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right then. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have his things? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Had his things on his hand and had his bag, but after he -paid my $7 he went out--I don't know, I think this YMCA, but I am not -supposed to know where, and brought back another bag, and then he said, -"Well, where is the grocery store?" - -Well, I said, "It is down that way," but I didn't want him to use the -kitchen, so, he said, "I'm going to get some milk," and so, I didn't -like that much, but I didn't say anything about it because I wanted to -get along with him. - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you some questions before we commence the grocery -store part of it. - -When you first saw him, did he have his luggage with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. A bag. - -Mr. BALL. Will you describe the bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember where--seemed like it was a kind of a -duffelbag. - -Mr. BALL. The kind the men in the service put their clothes in? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know. - -Mr. BALL. Had some things on a coathanger? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And had a clock. - -Mr. BALL. Had what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. A clock, wrapped up. - -Mr. BALL. What color was this duffelbag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it was blue. - -Mr. BALL. That was the only bag he had with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, he went off to town and got another one. - -Mr. BALL. Then he went off to town and brought another bag back, would -you describe that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, I didn't pay any attention to it. - -Mr. BALL. Was it leather or---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BALL. Could you give me any idea of the size of it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was big. About like that [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. About like that, you mean, oh, 3 feet long, 2 feet, 2-1/2? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about like that. - -Mr. BALL. About---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. About 2 feet long? Was it brown? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I just couldn't remember. I didn't pay any attention to -it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember him carrying it into the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember he went in. - -Mr. BALL. Now---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I didn't pay any attention. He rented the room, and -I didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. BALL. Did he carry it by a handle, or in his arms? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he carried it by a handle, but I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. He brought two bags into this room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; wasn't but one when he come in, but next time he -went off---- - -Mr. BALL. He brought another one back? - -How did he come out there, do you know? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I don't know whether he come here--he come -and just knocked on the door. I was in the backyard. - -Mr. BALL. After he moved, after he put his bags in his room, did he -leave? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he said---- - -Mr. BALL. I mean, did he leave to go downtown to get the other bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, and come back. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. The time he went to get the other bag, did you see him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of transportation he had? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I guess I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him drive up in a car? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, always took a bus. - -Mr. BALL. How do you know that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw--one time he stopped over there across the -street and get the bus that is the only time I didn't--I didn't watch -what he did. Of course, I had no idea he was the kind of man he was. - -Mr. BALL. You say that he asked you where the grocery store was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Is that when he came back with this second bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh, I got him something to eat. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him anything about his using your -refrigerator? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. One question. Ask her how long he was gone and you will -know how far he went. That is what I wanted to know. - -Mr. BALL. When he left to get this second bag, how long was he gone? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, not over an hour. About an hour. It wasn't a -long--I wondered then where he went, but it wasn't none of my business. - -Mr. BALL. You say now not over an hour. Do you think it might have been -less than an hour? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I believe less than an hour. - -Mr. BALL. How much less? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd say 40 minutes, anyway, at most. - -Mr. BALL. This was in the afternoon, was it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; started at 3 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. At 3 o'clock he came to your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then he came back the second time with the second bag -before 4, did he? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I'm sure he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any about the use of the refrigerator? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said he was going to put something in there, and -I said--I didn't have anything to say, and I hemmed-and-hawed, I said, -"Well, no; I don't have a very big refrigerator." - -Well, he said, "I won't use it after this time." He was very, very -congenial. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go down to the grocery store? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he buy? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He bought some peanut butter and some sardines, and some -bananas and put it all in his room, except the milk, and he ate there, -ate in his room. I didn't like that either. - -Mr. BALL. He was there how many days? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was there 5 days, just 5 days. - -Mr. BALL. He was there--what day of the week was the day that he came? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday and Tuesday he stayed home and went to bed, and -stayed--I didn't pay any attention to him---- - -Mr. BALL. Monday night he stayed home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; after he went to the grocery store. - -Mr. BALL. What about Tuesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Tuesday he went out at 9:30 and come home at 2:30. He was -looking for a job, and called on the phone, wanted different ones, and -I got the book, and papers, and tried to look for him a job, because he -was a nice looking boy, and wanted a job. - -Mr. BALL. Now, he went out at 9-9:30 in the morning and came back at -2:30? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Let's see. 1:30. I have my nap then, and it kind of -interfered, but I didn't say anything. - -Mr. BALL. You say you have a what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I have a nap then. - -Mr. BALL. You take a nap in the afternoon? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I had a stroke, you see. - -Mr. BALL. And it interfered with your nap when he came back? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I didn't say anything then, but then the next -day---- - -Mr. BALL. Let's finish Tuesday. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. That's all. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go out again after he came home at 1:30? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Stayed in his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. All the time, and stayed there that night, too. - -Mr. BALL. All the time? What about Wednesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He left about 9 o'clock, and went off dressed. Had a -white shirt and white tie and white--white trousers, and looked very -nice. Went off Monday about 2 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. This is Wednesday. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday. Then he got back at 1:30. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see, he left at 9? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Come back at 1:30? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did he go out again that day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but then he talked to somebody on the phone, and -talked in a foreign language. - -Mr. BALL. You mean when? Wednesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday, I guess it was Wednesday, but I am sure -it must have been Wednesday. I was in my room, and the telephone is -over there [indicating], and I didn't like that, somebody talking in a -foreign language and, so I told my girl friend, I said, "I don't like -anybody talking in a foreign language." - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did he call on the phone and talk in a -foreign language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He come home at 1:30 and talked about 2 or 2:30, talked -like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; went to bed. - -Mr. BALL. Went to bed that night and stayed there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I didn't fix his room either, that is why I didn't -see his luggage. I didn't go in his room at all because they take care -of their own rooms. - -Mr. BALL. What about Thursday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Thursday, he went out at 10 o'clock or 10:30, and I was -out in the yard, and he come out and I said, "Oh. I thought you had -gone." - -"Oh, no," he said, he didn't go, but he came home a little bit early, -and after I said he got into my nap, he come home at 2 o'clock, or -2:30, you see, and didn't leave until 10. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell him that he interfered with your nap? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What day did you tell him that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I told him that, I guess must have been Thursday. -Thursday and then he---- - -Mr. BALL. You mean Thursday morning? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Well, then Thursday morning is when he left a little later -than usual? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And you told him that he had interfered with your nap before -that day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I think it was--it must have been--no; it was that -day. It was after I had that call. I didn't like that and he never said -a word, and then I interviewed him when he first came in and thought he -was all right, and he never spoke--I had one boy on the back. He never -saw him and he would run to the bathroom and go to the icebox and get -some ice, and didn't like that. Went too much to the icebox, but---- - -Mr. BALL. Well, now---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That was a Thursday. - -Mr. BALL. When he went away on Thursday, then had you told him prior to -that time that when he came in at 1:30, in the afternoon, he interfered -with your nap? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think you might have told him that on Wednesday or -Tuesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't tell him until after I had that call. - -Mr. BALL. When was the call? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday. - -Mr. BALL. And who called you on Wednesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He called somebody, you know. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the day that he called someone and spoke in a -foreign language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. After that, you told him---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like that. - -Mr. BALL. That he interfered with your nap? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. I didn't like it, and the next day he fussed with -somebody on the phone, I don't know whether it was his wife or who it -was. - -Mr. BALL. That was Thursday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 2 o'clock or 2:30 when he come home here and---- - -Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Stayed in all day? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Stayed in all day, and it was Friday he stayed in his -room all day. Didn't eat. Ate what he had in his room. Stayed in his -room all day long. - -Mr. BALL. When did you next see him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Been--then Saturday, he started out and had his bag. - -Mr. BALL. Started out with his luggage? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Saturday morning he started out with his bag and---- - -Mr. BALL. Which bag did he take? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Was it the duffelbag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Like you see the servicemen carrying? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess it was. I didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. BALL. This was Saturday morning about what time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 10 o'clock, or 9:30 and I thought he was going to -move and I--"Oh--" I said, "You are going to move?" - -And he said, "No; I am just going for the weekend." - -Well, I said, "Well, I don't know." But he said, "And I want my room -cleaned and clean sheets put on the bed." - -And I said, "Well, I will after you move because you are going to move." - -He said, "Why?" - -I says, "Because I am not going to rent to you any more." - -Mr. BALL. Not going to what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not going to rent to you any more, He said, "Give me back -my money." Now, $2. - -I said, "Well, I don't have it." - -So, he left Saturday morning and, in the meantime. I think his wife was -going to have a baby---- - -Mr. BALL. How did you know that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I found--I read it in the papers. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, no; he didn't ever tell me. Didn't tell me anything. - -Mr. BALL. You told him you weren't going to rent to him any more on -that Saturday morning about 10 o'clock. At that time did he have his -bag? Was he carrying a bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; going out with it again. Going out to Irving. - -Mr. BALL. How did you know? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, said he was. - -Mr. BALL. He told you he was going to Irving? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; said he was going to Irving. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was going to Irving for any purpose? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just said he was going to Irving. No; he didn't tell -me anything. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you tell him you wouldn't rent to him any more? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because I didn't like him. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like his attitude. He was just kind of like -this, you know, just big shot, you know, and I didn't have anything to -say to him, and--but, I didn't like him. There was just something about -him I didn't like or want him--just wasn't the kind of person I wanted. -Just didn't want him around me. - -Mr. BALL. When he left on Saturday morning do you know by what -transportation he took? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop near your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right in front of the house. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him take the bus. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him wait for the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just saw him go out the door. Didn't pay any -attention. And when he left I said--oh, he was going to come back -and get his things Saturday. He took it out and said, "Well, it is 2 -dollars," and I--"Well, I don't have it, so, he went off." - -Mr. BALL. Well, wait a minute. Did he say he would come back and get -the things Saturday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say a thing. - -Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute. Saturday morning you told him you -wouldn't rent to him again. What did he say about getting his money -back? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said, "Well, give me my money back and I will -move now." - -And I said, "I don't have it." - -Mr. BALL. Then what did he say? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything and went on out the door. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about whether he would come to get -his clothes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; not a thing. - -Mr. BALL. Did he come back Saturday night? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. When did he come back? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday morning. - -Mr. BALL. And from Saturday morning until Monday morning you didn't see -him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. What time Monday morning did he come back? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Between 8 and 9, 9 and 10. I mean. - -Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Have his bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't say a word to him. He--I didn't say a word to -him. - -Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything in his hand? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did he take with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had that bag. - -Mr. BALL. What bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. The bag, you see, he had two. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I never noticed it. I don't know what kind it was or -anything. - -Mr. BALL. When he left, he had one bag when he left? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. One bag. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether it was the duffelbag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what color it was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just navy blue. I don't know which one he carried, or -what they were or what. I didn't pay any attention to it. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know whether both bags were navy blue, or different -colors? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. You know one was navy blue? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. When he left, did he say anything to you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you say anything to him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. I said, "Good luck." You know, I thought to myself, -"That's good riddance," and I looked in his room and it was all right, -and nothing was disturbed. - -Mr. BALL. Had he cleaned it up? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was dirty. - -Mr. BALL. Did he leave anything around the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; somehow I saw a map. I believe he left that map. - -Mr. BALL. What map? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. A map of Dallas where he could get around to get some -places, jobs. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with that map? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Throwed it in the garbage. - -Mr. BALL. Threw it away? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was it a map, kind of a map put out by the service stations? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; one of those kinds. I just threw it away and cleaned -up the room. Just threw it away. - -Mr. BALL. Did the map have any markings on it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You know--do you know what the markings were? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever see him again? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought. "Well, he is gone," and forgot it. - -Mr. BALL. But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading -from some notes before you. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I forget what I have to say. - -Mr. BALL. When did you make those notes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. What day did I make them? - -Miss DOUTHIT. When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to -Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down -on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you -put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you -won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she -started making notes. - -Mr. BALL. You have made the notes in the last week? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes during the week he was there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Mr. BALL. Your address, make sure that we have this. The address where -you were living on the 7th of October was 621 Marsalis--North Marsalis, -Dallas, Tex.? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. And you are still living there, aren't you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the foreign language that you heard Oswald using over the -telephone on this Wednesday afternoon, do you know what the language -was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with the Spanish language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I am not. Not familiar with any of them. - -Mr. BALL. All you know it was not English? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. But, you can't tell what language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Can you make a guess? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I have no idea. I do, because the girl is Spanish, -but I don't know whether he called her or not. - -Mr. BALL. What girl is Spanish? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I mean--his wife was Russian. - -Mr. BALL. Russian. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when did you see Oswald again? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I went down to the parade. Oh, when was the parade? -The 22d of--the next--22d of February--when was the parade? - -Mr. BALL. The 22d of November the President came to Dallas. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I first got off at Neiman's and I--the parade didn't -come on, and I kept walking on up, and walked in front of Titche's -over on that side there, and I saw the parade there. He passed--I saw -the President, oh, I was happy I got to see him. And--so then I got on -across and went over to the Athletic Club, and caught the bus. - -Mr. BALL. What bus did you catch? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the -Romana. - -Mr. BALL. Both go by your house, do they? What was the last one? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. The Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. What was the second name? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Romana. - -Mr. BALL. And both go west on Elm? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right--so, I got on the bus, and while it was awfully -crowded there---- - -Mr. BALL. You mean crowded on the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; outside. - -Mr. BALL. Were there many people on the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. How many people on the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about 10. - -Mr. BALL. And what was the location on Elm where you boarded this bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the Athletic Club. - -Mr. BALL. What cross street is that, do you remember? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. St. Paul. - -Mr. BALL. St. Paul? You got on at St. Paul? St. Paul and Elm? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. And the bus was going in what direction? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. West. - -Mr. BALL. All right, now, tell me what happened? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy--I figured it -out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a -maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone. - -Mr. BALL. You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. It was unraveled? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't -look at him. I didn't want to know I even seen him, and I just looked -off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been -shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The -motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I -can get off. - -Mr. BALL. You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, -one seat or two seats behind him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the -seat across the way. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat -you took? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I always did. - -Mr. BALL. Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. First seat on the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Side seat. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were -facing the motorman? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but I saw that it was him. - -Mr. BALL. How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Just a matter of a foot or two? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Where did he sit? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He sat about halfway back down. - -Mr. BALL. On what side? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the same side I was on. - -Mr. BALL. Same side? Did you look at him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he look at you as he went by? Did he look at you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I didn't look at him. That is--I was -just--he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a hat on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what color shirt did he have on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had a brown shirt. - -Mr. BALL. And unraveled? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the -elbow? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is. - -Mr. BALL. And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it -buttoned? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; all the buttons torn off. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have on underneath that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Notice the color of his pants? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. BALL. Around where? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the seam. - -Mr. BALL. At the waist? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the waist, uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Was the shirt tucked beneath the belt in his pants, or -outside the belt? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it in. - -Mr. BALL. Had it tucked in? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was tucked in. - -Mr. BALL. So, that the belt of the pants was outside the shirt? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you say the motorman said something? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Motorman said, "Well, the President has been shot," and -I say--so, and the woman over--we all got to talking about four of us -sitting around talking, and Oswald was sitting back there, and one of -them said, "Hope they don't shoot us," and I said, "I don't believe -that--it is--I don't believe it. Somebody just said that." - -And it was too crowded, you see, and Oswald had got off. - -Mr. BALL. How far had he been on the bus before he got off? Until the -time he got on until the time he got off? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. About three or four blocks. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to the motorman when he got off? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. They say he did, but I don't remember him saying anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the motorman give him a transfer? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention but I believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean he--you believe he did? Did you -remember seeing him get on or are you telling me something you read in -the newspapers? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention at that time as to whether he did, -or did not get a transfer? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you look at him as he got off the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I sure didn't. I didn't want to know him. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you think you got enough of a glimpse of him to be able -to recognize him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. You think you might be mistaken? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't look very carefully, did you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just glanced at him, and then looked the other way -and I hoped he didn't see me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, are there two exits from the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. The middle of the bus, and front of the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. Which exit did he leave? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Front. - -Mrs. BALL. By the motorman? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, by the motorman. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody else get off at that time when he got off? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not then, but there was a lady sitting right across, -she wanted to go to the train station. - -Mr. BALL. To the what station? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Train station, and she was worried about trying to get -off, you know, trying to get there, and then we were hearing her, -and I said, "Well, why don't you walk over there. It's just a little -ways." Because the crowd was so bad we still didn't know the President -had been killed, and finally she got off, but I think it was--it was -before--I mean after Oswald did. - -Mr. BALL. Did she ask for a transfer? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught the -bus before she got to the train station. - -Mr. BALL. How do you know that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw her. - -Mr. BALL. You saw her catch another bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. She got on when we did. She rode a block. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody get off when the lady got off? Anybody that was -going to the train station? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Was there traffic? Was the traffic heavy? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off -that around where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first -car that come around there, and then all of us were talking about the -man, and we were looking up to see where he was shot and looking--and -then they had one man and taking him, already got him in jail, and we -got--"Well, I am glad they found him." - -Mr. BALL. You were looking up at where? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. At where the boy was shot. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the Texas Book Depository? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. School Book Depository? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, because we were right four blocks from there, you -see. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the location of the bus with reference to a -cross street on Elm where Oswald got off? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I can't, because they have changed that street, so, -they have torn down things and I don't go to town very much now and so -I don't---- - -Mr. BALL. Was it in the middle of the block, or at a regular bus stop? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they said it was. - -Mr. BALL. I want to know what you remember. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether it was a regular bus stop or not? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald get on at a regular bus stop? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any particular attention to him. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, -the motorman opened the front door? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You are not able to say whether Oswald got on at a regular -bus stop, or at a point between blocks? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. And you are not able to tell us whether he got off at regular -bus stops, or between? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got -off? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street. - -Mr. BALL. How far? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. Close to Lamar? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, close. - -Mr. BALL. How close? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say. - -Mr. BALL. Within a half block, or block? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; within a block. - -Mr. BALL. About a block from Lamar, you think? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd -seen Oswald? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. When I got home, first thing I did I went next door -and told them the President had been shot, and so she turned on the -radio and I went in and called my son and said the President had -been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed." Well, I turned on -the radio--television--and we heard ambulances and going around and -them, and so, I didn't pay any attention. I wanted to hear about the -President and there was a little boy came in that room in the back and -he turned it on, and we listened and hear about Mr. Tippen [sic] being -shot, and it didn't dawn on me, and I said--told his name as Oswald. -I don't--didn't mean anything to me, so, I wanted to hear about the -President, only one I was interested in, so, he went on back to work -and they kept talking about this boy Oswald and had on a brown shirt, -and all of a sudden, well, I declare, I believe that this was this boy, -and his name was Oswald--that is--give me his right name, you know, and -so, about an hour my son came home, and I told him, and he immediately -called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, -and so, I went down the next night. He took me down, and I made a -statement to them, what kind of--Secret Service man or something down -there. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the police station. - -Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. Now, did you ever see Oswald in a lineup? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ever show you pictures? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; showed me pictures of him. - -Mr. BALL. But didn't show you Oswald? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. Never did see Oswald after he was arrested? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not after he got off the bus; no. - -Mr. BALL. But, you looked at the pictures of Oswald? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Showed you the pictures of Oswald? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. The man down at the police station, he had a picture of -him with a gun, and said, "Do you recognize him?" - -And I said, "Yes; it is Oswald." That is the one that I remember him. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man who showed you the picture of -the man with the gun? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am so bad about names. - -Mr. BALL. Was there one man or more than one man? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about a dozen. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, a dozen men? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. There sure was a lot of them. Two Secret Service men, and -two to do this, and oh, I had interviewed about 9 or 10 or 12, plenty -of them. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. - -Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. - -Mr. BALL. This is a shirt---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "that is it?" - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because they brought it out to the house and showed it. - -Mr. BALL. I know. What do you mean by "this is it?" - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I can recognize it. - -Mr. BALL. Recognize it as what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir; see there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. You tell me what do you see here? What permits you to -recognize it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I recognize--first thing I notice the elbow is out and -then I saw--when the man brought it out and let me see it? - -Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about--I am showing you this shirt now, and -you said, "That is it." You mean--What do you mean by "that is it"? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is the one he had out there that day? - -Mr. BALL. Who had it out there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Some Secret Service man. - -Mr. BALL. He brought it out. Now, I am--you have seen this shirt then -before? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen the shirt before that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. Have you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it on, though. - -Mr. BALL. Who had it on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald had it on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald had it on. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe -that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What -is there about it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see the front of it. Yes. See all this -[indicating]? I remember that. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you see there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I saw the--no; not so much that. It was done after--that -is the part I recognize more than anything. - -Mr. BALL. You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What about the color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I--What do you mean? - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he had it on? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown. - -Mr. BALL. You remember the shirt being brown. - -Was it this color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it was that color. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, when you remember that you have seen -something before---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. In order to convince me that you did see it before you've got -to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. Now, you -try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is -the shirt that Oswald had on when you saw him on the bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would say it was. That hole---- - -Mr. BALL. Mostly the hole in the right sleeve? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What about the color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember the color. - -Mr. BALL. That is a similar color, isn't it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; same color. - -Mr. BALL. Same color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. You think that is the shirt? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it is the shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was -around your house? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the -bus? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. I have two exhibits here. One Commission Exhibit 157. Exhibit -157, and Commission 156, both pants. Have you ever seen either one of -those before? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, is that long pants? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; this is 157. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is not the ones he had on. - -Mr. BALL. That is not? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was ragged up at the top. - -Mr. BALL. This other pair of pants, 156, does that look like any of the -pants he had on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That must have been it, but seemed like it was ragged up -at the top. - -Mr. BALL. But, you think 156 may have been the pair of pants he had on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You think 157--don't pay any attention to the fact that it is -cut up--does 157 look anything like the pants he had on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't---- - -Mr. BALL. You don't think so? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have no more questions to ask you now, Mrs. Bledsoe, but -Mr. Jenner will ask you some questions. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get up here close so you will hear me all right. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to go back to the day that he came to your -home on the 7th of October? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You were out in your backyard? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he come back there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a bell on your house? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He knocked at the door. - -Mr. JENNER. He knocked at the door and you heard him knock at the door? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I went around the front. - -Mr. JENNER. And your home is all at one level? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you walked through your house? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I went through the yard and come around from the back -to the front yard. - -Mr. JENNER. And you saw a young man at the door? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. How was that young man dressed on that occasion? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember what he had on. Didn't pay any -attention. He was clean and that's all you see, but I didn't know what -color the pants were and what kind of shirt it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did he have a suit on or sportscoat, or just his -shirt? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just the shirt. It was hot weather. October. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--did he have a tie on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The shirt, that was open at the front? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, it wasn't those short shirts. I don't know what kind -it was. I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was a Monday morning. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. Monday afternoon. Did he have a hat on? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he--did he have any luggage? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; had one bag, I don't know whether it was a duffel or -what, but then he went on and got another one. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, if you will permit me to stay with what he had when -you first saw him---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You call on your recollection and tell me all you can tell -me about the bag he had at that time, its size, its shape. In another -connection, Mrs. Bledsoe, it is prior events that are important to us. -If we can possibly find out or get as accurate a description as you can -give us. Sit there relaxed and tell us what you remember about this -bag, what size it was; what shape it was; whether it was hard; whether -it was soft, what color it was. - -Was it zippered? How was it fastened? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know whether it was zippered or not. But seems to -me like it was, though. - -Mr. JENNER. Just start from the beginning and tell us what you remember -about the bag that he had when you first saw him at the door. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was just a blue--like a canvas bag. - -Mr. JENNER. Canvas? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, I don't know whether it was zippered or not. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall a zippered sort of bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't even look. It was about that long, I guess -[indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. You are indicating about 26 inches? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About that long. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Then, he had some things on his back. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you mind if we stuck with the bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it was 26 inches long and you think it was canvas, -and you think it was blue in color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was its shape? Was it a round sort of soft kind of bag -or was it--did it have firm, stiff sides? Was it rectangular? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say. Couldn't say. Didn't pay any -attention to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection does serve you that it was not what we -would call a suitcase? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; looked like an inexpensive bag of some kind. - -Mr. JENNER. And your memory doesn't serve you that there was any sort -of zipper thing, and you do seem to have a reasonably firm recollection -that the color of it was blue? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have a handle on it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When he picked it up---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is---- - -Mr. JENNER. I was trying to get an idea, and well--I have a coat here, -and using it for purposes of illustration, when he picked up the bag by -the handles did the bag sag, or was it firm? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention. Didn't pay a bit of attention. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice from your testimony that he also had, on this -occasion, at this time, in addition to the canvas bag, blue in color, -he had some things over his arm, or over his shoulder? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On a coathanger. - -Mr. JENNER. He had some articles of clothing? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On coathangers. - -Mr. JENNER. On coathangers? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And were those draped back over the shoulder or arm, or was -he holding them by the hooks or hooks on the hangers? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think he had them on coathangers, just--I guess--I -don't know--he was standing there. I don't have no idea. - -Mr. JENNER. Just how he was carrying them, you are uncertain, but you -are certain that he had articles of clothing on hangers? - -Mr. BLEDSOE. On coathangers. - -Mr. JENNER. Were--would they be wooden coathangers or the metal? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Metal ones. - -Mr. JENNER. The type you get when you send clothes to the cleaners and -they come back on these wire, metal hangers, what--was that the type? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I imagine. I couldn't tell. Now, I--no; I didn't -pay any attention to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection serves you now that there were hangers, -but you cannot recall whether they were the wire type or whether they -were wooden? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he left, he just carried them off. I never did look -at his clothes at all. - -Mr. JENNER. You impress me as a lady that wouldn't be fussing around? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't care enough about it. All I wanted him to do was -rent the room. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him -for $7 for that week? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And he paid you then and there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh - -Mr. JENNER. In cash? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and I gave him a receipt on this book. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he then left your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about why he was leaving? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He went to the grocery store. No, no; first he went to -get his other bag. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say then? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you come to know that he went to get another bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He didn't say--he just went off. - -Mr. JENNER. He just turned around without any leave taking? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; because he was not a man to talk, you know, what -I got out of him, I had to get it out of him, because it was hard -to--because I wanted to see what kind of a person he was, and it was -hard to get, you know, to judge him in such a short time. - -Mr. JENNER. When you completed the transaction about his renting the -room and you got your $7, he paid it to you, so it was agreed he had -the room for a week, did he go in and look at the room before he paid -you the $7? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was in the room, and I was at the door, and he looked -at it and I said, $7, so, he took it and give me the money all in ones, -$7. - -Mr. JENNER. Seven $1 bills? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Seven $1 bills, and then he come over to my room and -I--he wrote it down, and it is a good thing I had him write it, because -I am kind of nervous, and I don't write so well, see, and he put it -down on that, and that--and so, that is--this is in September, but -anyway---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. October---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her this question about that bag, if it was -puffed out, or approximately what shape it was, also, as to any further -conversation that she had as to his background, how much she knows. If -you are interested. You might not be. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Robert Davis of the attorney general's office of Texas -has come in, and I am not seeking to press you, but we have some -problems of the highest degree of exactitude that we can obtain. And at -the risk of boring you, I would like to go back to that bag again. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, that; I didn't pay much attention to it. - -Mr. JENNER. When you first saw him at the door at your front of your -home, he had the bag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it resting on the porch, or was he standing before the -door with bag in hand when you first saw him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I come around the house, you see, and I don't know. I -didn't pay--I don't know, couldn't tell you whether he was carrying it -or what, but he did have these things on his shoulder, on his hangers. -It--maybe had it sitting down, I don't know. I guess he did. I didn't -pay any attention to it. - -Mr. JENNER. And at that point you were asking why he was there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he asked me if I had a room for rent. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I said, "Yes," and I thought, "Well, are you -married?" And he said, "Yes," and---- - -Mr. JENNER. You asked? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You inquired of him as to his history? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you inquire of him, and what did he say? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wanted to find out something about him, and he -said, "Well, I just want the room for a week or two, because I am going -to get a job and then I will have my wife here." - -Mr. JENNER. He told you at that time and informed you that he was -unemployed? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he would be seeking work? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he said that he was going to bring his wife? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And--when and if he obtained employment? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And so, that give me a lead, something to talk about, and -I said, "Well, what kind of work do you do? - -"Oh, I do electronics," he said, and I said, "Well, there is some good -jobs because you are young, and you can get a good job a young man like -you." - -And then went on. Then something about him being in the Marines, and I -said, "Well, that is wonderful. My son was in the Navy." - -And talking about him, you know, just getting to know him, and--but, -"here is a picture of my wife, and picture of the girl, and the baby." - -And I said, "Oh, she has got a baby, hasn't she?" - -And he said, "Yes." - -And everything he said, I had to pull it out of him to talk about -something for him to say what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. But, he volunteered the picture of his wife and child? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did that. Showed me that picture. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that an ordinary snapshot picture? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was in his billfold. - -Mr. JENNER. Took it out of his billfold? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir; it was in the billfold. Just showed it in the -billfold. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a billfold here. Was it this type? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was something else. Don't seem like it was like -that. Seemed like it opened this other way, I---- - -Mr. JENNER. This? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I think it was like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he carry it in his trouser pocket, coat pocket? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention where he had it. - -Mr. JENNER. What other inquiries did you make of him to become better -acquainted and find out about him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He said he had been in the Marines and I thought that was -a pretty good recommendation, and I said, "Well, you won't have any -trouble at all getting any job." - -And so, the next morning I was helping him looking for a job. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, pardon me, if you will just stick to while you're at -the door now. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Just one interruption, but find out if this conversation -took place at the door, or after he got in the room. - -They are in this room, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. You went inside the house almost immediately? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. When he first made an inquiry? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you took him to show him the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your inquiries were--with respect to his history were -in the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And he showed you the picture while you were in the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it, am I correct, when you went into the room he -had that bag, and he had the articles of clothing? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And had them with him, didn't leave them on the porch? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he do with the bag when he entered the room? Did -he put it down on the floor? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't pay any attention? What did he do with the articles -of clothing on the hangers? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wasn't paying any attention to it. I guess he hung them -up. Just a young boy, and I was trying to see if he was clean, and if -he was very intelligent, and he was going to go to work, so, I didn't -have too much to work on. Told me he had a nice wife, so, I didn't have -anything to say. - -Mr. JENNER. When your son was in the Navy, did he have a duffelbag? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Now, it was so long ago--it was--I don't know whether -he did. I don't think he did. He didn't. He was an instructor at TI. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he stationed here in Dallas? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, TI. Treasure Island. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, Treasure Island. How long did this discussion with him -in the room take? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I guess 10 minutes because those--he was--you know, -old people, they want to get you out of the way. They don't want to -listen to you, but I wanted to find out, so, I think I maybe asked him -too many questions, but I wanted him to say something to me and he said -something about his--I said, "Do you have a family here," and he said, -"Yes, my family lives here." - -Well, he wouldn't say his mother or anything, and I didn't ask him -everything. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything in addition to the hangers with -respect to these clothes? Were the articles of clothing enclosed in any -kind of a bag or paper, plastic, or otherwise? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, just on hangers. - -Mr. JENNER. Just on hangers. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. But I didn't pay any attention to what kind of--I think -maybe a coat. I don't know what it was, a sweater or something. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see how many articles of clothing were there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about four. - -Mr. JENNER. And none of them was enclosed in any kind of a container, -plastic or otherwise? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he pleasant during all of the conversation you had with -him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was the first day. Next day didn't talk any more. I -didn't talk to him. - -Mr. JENNER. As soon as he--recalling to mind that he paid you the $7. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any further conversation take place after he paid you -the $7? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is when he asked where the grocery store was. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. What else? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he didn't say anything about going to get the rest -of his things. I think that he must have been--said that after he came -back with the other bag. - -Mr. JENNER. Must have said what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Where was the grocery store, after he come back and got -the other---- - -Mr. JENNER. So, your recollection presently serves you that he paid you -the $7 and no further conversation took place? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He turned and left the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I--he was--I was in the room, I just walked out. - -Mr. JENNER. You walked out after the transaction, financially, was -complete? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I went and he paid--he had already paid me but I wanted -him to put his name on here. - -Mr. JENNER. On your register? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. On this [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. He did that---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; in the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection was that he wrote the words "Lee Oswald"? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Then did he leave your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Without saying anything to you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was gone--did he return? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; within about 40 minutes, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was gone about 40 minutes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And got the rest of his things. - -Mr. JENNER. When he returned did you see him before he entered your -home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having seen him before he -entered his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware of the fact he had returned? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I must have heard him, or he might have come in and -put his milk in the icebox. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't get the milk, as far as I recall, until -you'd advised him where the grocery store was. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. That was after he had returned from the---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. From the---- - -Mr. JENNER. After this 40-minute interval? I am just sticking for the -moment to the time that he returned to your home after 40 minutes. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. He had put his name in your register and in your presence, -in the living room, and turned and left your home and returned in 40 -minutes; now, is that right? It's that point that I am concentrating -on. When did you become aware that he had returned on that occasion and -how? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know--I guess he come and put the things in -the icebox. I don't even remember where I was. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. So, that you didn't see him return to your home? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't see him come in. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't see him come in? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know what he had with him at that point? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability where was he in your home when -you became aware of his presence on his return after that 40 minutes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I must have been in the kitchen and he came back there -and put the milk in, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have milk with him after he returned that 40 minutes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not the 40 minutes. That was the bag. - -Mr. JENNER. See, this is what I'm trying to concentrate on for -the moment, before you get the milk. And I am trying to take it -sequentially. He paid the $7 and signed the register in your living -room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And without any further words to you he turned and left -your home, is that accurate? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that's about right. - -Mr. JENNER. He returned in 40 minutes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right to that point, when did you become -aware of the fact that he was then back in your home, that is, at that -point? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That he--he hadn't gotten the milk yet? - -Mr. JENNER. No; this is when he first returned. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know. I was just around the house. I didn't -pay any attention to him. - -Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, then, when he made that first trip back, you -didn't see him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him on that occasion? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he had the bag, didn't he? - -Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with what you knew at that instant of time. -What you found out afterwards, I'll go into that in a moment. - -You didn't see him return? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him when he returned? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. At that instance, because you didn't see him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But, you were aware; now, you became aware of the fact that -he did return? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with him at that point? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware and I gather from your earlier -testimony you became aware that he had brought that into your home, or -there was in your home some additional luggage. When you first saw him -he had this soft canvas bag, or canvas bag, whether it was soft or not -that is uncertain. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you became aware later that day that there was -another piece of luggage, and, am I correct about that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, I think he said he was going to get some more. He -was going to get some more and he had some boots, too, in his hand. -I--maybe he brought those the last time. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of boots? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they looked like they were about up to here -[indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the knee? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about there [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh,---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. There. - -Mr. JENNER. Just a little above the ankle? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. About 3 inches above the ankle? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know what they used them for. - -Mrs. JENNER. Were they cowboy boots. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't cowboy boots. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they canvas, leather, or rubber? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just leather. - -Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Heavy-soled. - -Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled. Rubber soles? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; leather. - -Mr. JENNER. Any hobnails in them? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Hard heel or flat heel? I mean, flat sole and heel? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, they had a heel, too. I remember them having that. He -must have brought those in when he brought those the last time. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not recall his having the boots at the time you -first--at the first time you talked to him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't believe he did. - -Mr. JENNER. But, you became aware of the boots afterward? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. At, or about, or after the time he returned from this -40-minute absence? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time you noticed the boots, did you also -notice that he had additional items of luggage? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he went to get the luggage. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know whether he did or not. I know he--I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a thought in mind when he left after he paid -you the $7 and signed your register that he was going somewhere to -obtain additional articles of clothing? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought that. - -Mr. JENNER. You thought that? He didn't say anything to you about that, -however? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say anything. Didn't talk much. - -Mr. JENNER. It is clear in your mind that he just turned around after -you finished the transaction and left and returned in 40 minutes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I thought he said he had to get some groceries, but maybe -that was after he got the luggage, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. You had become aware that afternoon that he had additional -articles of luggage? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Come in about 3, about 4 he got the rest of the luggage. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this additional article of luggage, would you describe -it, as compared with---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any---- - -Mr. JENNER. Please. As compared with this canvas bag, blue in color, -that you just told me about? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay no attention to it at all. It was just a -piece of luggage. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, was it a---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't---- - -Mr. JENNER. What I would call a suitcase or what you might call a -suitcase? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't a regular suitcase, but just something -inexpensive, just something the boys have, and I didn't pay any -attention to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it hard-sided? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was a--you know, it was weak, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. It was weak. Was it strong enough so that it had a -rectangular shape? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You know what I mean by suitcase? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is reasonably firm and hard, and has a handle on it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't that way. One of those inexpensive kind of -things, but I don't know whether it was canvas or what. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it firmer in shape than the canvas bag you have -described to me that he had earlier? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Well, I think it was chuck full. - -Mr. JENNER. You know it was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was, I remember. I don't---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. One of them was blue, and I don't know which one or -anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her something. - -Mary, would it help you to remember this if you would just begin, you -were out in the yard, and you went around and interviewed this man -there, did you stand in the yard, or go in your room and talk? Did he -put up his things then before he came across the hall to talk to you? -When did he ask you about groceries? After he signed your register -did he go back in his room and hang his clothes up, or what happened? -Would it help if you just sit here idly without anybody asking you -questions and see? Did you go back out in the yard after he paid you -the money, and while he was gone--if you can, just retrace your steps -without anybody interrupting you. Could you begin and go again out in -the yard, and went around and saw this man here, and he told you he -wanted to rent a room, whether you stood on the porch and talked to -him, or whether he brought his things and you went on and showed him -the room? How far is the room from where your front door was? If you go -down a hall, how far? Did you go over there and talk to him and make -arrangements about the rent of the room? Did he hang up his clothes -while he was in the room? - -Did he--if you can just trace your steps and give it to him. I ask you -to do that, and I know it is confusing, but that's all he wants. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I am getting tired. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All he wants is the truth, and I thought maybe you might, -for the sake of the record, you know---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would have--we have said most everything. - -Miss DOUTHIT. I know it, but just do it one more time. The man was -standing at your front door---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am getting tired, because I have had a stroke, you see. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I stayed in. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did he leave your house twice? Now, you said he went and -got a bag and brought it back? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did, brought back the bag. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Then he went back again? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Miss DOUTHIT. How long was he--all I want to know is just, if you can -just tell that in your own words without any questions. Could you just -do that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd rather they asked, because---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. I know, but it is hard for them to ask these particular -questions, because they don't know exactly what happened. All they want -to do is to say that you were in the room with him, and put this little -bag down and hung up his clothes, and came across the hall and signed -the register, see. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all. I don't know whether he put his clothes -and what in the other room. I don't know whether he put his bag---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Was there a closet in there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Well, were you with him when he put the clothes in the -closet, or did you go on across the hall and leave him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; I didn't pay any attention to him. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence--Mary, pardon me, I am -not--this is not for the record. - -Mr. JENNER. No; that's fine, leave it on the record. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right. When the man was on your front porch. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. He had a blue bag in there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Miss DOUTHIT. And you don't know whether it was round or bulging, you -just don't know? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know whether it had a long strap or a little -handle, do you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it had a handle. - -Miss DOUTHIT. But, it wasn't one you sling over your shoulder? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, can you go ahead? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Clothes were sort of hanging over here [indicating]. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh. Not covered or anything? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You couldn't tell anybody about what color the clothes -were, could you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you stand in the yard and talk to the young man? Or -immediately go into the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I immediately--I was talking to him, but I had to -go in immediately, because he wanted to see the room. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right. How far is it, Mrs. Bledsoe, from where you -met this man at the front door until you showed him the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is about 25 foot, and all that time I had to -size him up, you see. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You were talking to him as you went down the hall? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; getting---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Is that where you learned that he was married, as you -were walking down the hall? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he told me he was married before we went in the house. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, then, when you got to the room, did you both -walk inside the room, or stand in the door and talk? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I stood in the door, and he went in and looked at it and -took it. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did he keep his clothes? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention. - -Miss DOUTHIT. When he was talking to you, you don't know what he did, -just stood and talked to you? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence before he came into your room -and signed the register? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, that, Melody---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Were you with him? And took him into the room, and---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Says, "I'll take the room." - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave him in the room and you go on across to -your room? How far is your room from where you rented his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right next to it. No; he came on in, he came on back -behind me. - -Miss DOUTHIT. He never left your presence from the time you went in -this room until he came over here? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, did he put his things in your room--or bring -them with him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he left them in the room. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, you don't know where he put them? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to him. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Is there a closet in that room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You don't remember whether he hung his clothes in the -closet? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. But, he left and came over where you were and signed your -register, and then did he go back into his room or go down the hall and -leave the house? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, went back in his room. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right. You don't know how long he stayed in his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Now, before he left your room, did he tell you anything -about going and getting additional luggage, or did you know when he -was leaving the room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I didn't know. He said he was going to get some -groceries but it might have been that he said that he was going, I -don't know. I don't know. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Was it when he signed the register that he asked you -about the grocery store, or later? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Later. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right. Then you were in your room when he went back -in his room. Did you see him leave his room and go out of the house? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Then where did you go? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lord have mercy. I don't know. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't think I went into the yard. I was fooling -around the house. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how far from your room is your kitchen? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord. It is a long ways. It is clear across the -living room and dining room and the kitchen is right there [indicating]. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, but your room is right next to the room you -rented to this man? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Miss DOUTHIT. When did you have knowledge that he was back in his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, when--I guess when he brought these--brought the -milk in. - -Miss DOUTHIT. How could he go to the grocery store and get milk unless -he had already asked you where the grocery store was? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, he had already. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Okay, then, it was on his return from getting the bag -that he asked you about the grocery store, is that right? Or do you -remember? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes; it wasn't anything said about this when he -rented--about eating. Just--he just rented the room, and not to eat in -there. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Now when you had some kind of knowledge, as you just -said, could you hear him back in his room, or could you see him back in -his room after he left the first time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I heard him. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did he come in and talk to you before he left your house -the second time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he never did talk to me at all. He didn't talk. - -Miss DOUTHIT. The only conversation you had with this Mrs.--with this -Mr. Oswald was when he came and rented the room and signed the register? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And what I got out of him. That's all I could get. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Now; did you get any information out of him after he -signed the register? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, the next day. - -Miss DOUTHIT. I am talking about this one day. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't get much. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Then all of your conversation that you had this Monday -that he rented that room took place at one time, is that correct? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's correct. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Now, he came back, and for some reason you knew he was in -there. When did he leave your house the second time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he went to get the groceries. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Well, when? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Was he--when he went to leave, did he come in and say, -"I'm going to get some groceries." Did he? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You evidently told him about the grocery store the first -time when he signed the register and your conversation with him-- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't either. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Well, you just said you had one conversation with him, -and you had no other conversation with him. Now, just remember these -facts that you had no conversation with him after he paid you the money -and signed the register. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wouldn't say, because I don't know what he did. I -don't remember. - -Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how long after--when he brought his bag back -and put it in this room, how long did he stay in that room until he -left to go to the grocery store, if that is where he went? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was that the first when he went and got the other bag? - -Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, 20 or 30 minutes. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did he go and use the telephone, or just stay in his room -all that time? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, didn't use the phone until--I think he used it after. - -Miss DOUTHIT. Did he use your telephone on Monday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. After the, yes; after he got everything settled, I think -he did. Two or three times every day. Called his wife, supposed to be. - -Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know who he called? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know who he called. - -Miss DOUTHIT. But, you don't know anything at all about when you gave -him this information about the grocery store? We are just trying to get -the order here in which this happened, Mrs. Bledsoe, is all, if you can -just remember? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord. - -Miss DOUTHIT. That is the reason I asked you if you could, to write -these things down. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. I am sorry, but I thought in--I might help you. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make a telephone call after he became settled? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 8th of October? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wouldn't say for sure, but I guess he did, because he -called his wife, supposedly--supposed to have been all the time, but in -the morning he called some people about jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because he talked on the phone and talked gruff, talked -gruff to those on the phone, and talked about a job. I heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, one of the occasions when the gentleman interviewed -you--were Secret Service and FBI people--there is a notation that you -recalled that on Monday afternoon that he did call his wife? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, does that refresh your recollection, that he did call -her the same day that he moved in here on---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And, were you aware of the fact that he was using the -telephone? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I told him he could use the phone to get him a job -and call his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you aware of any occasion on Monday when you had -your own mental conception that he was actually talking with his wife? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it didn't--I wasn't interested at all. He--I -wasn't--I didn't think about it at all. When I got interested is when -he called, talking in that foreign language. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the first time you heard him talking in the foreign -language was when? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I can guess, it was a Wednesday. - -Mr. JENNER. Wednesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday afternoon, but he came on---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, so you assume that the other calls he made on Monday, -since he did not, I take it, did not speak in a foreign language, or -you didn't hear him speak in a foreign language on Monday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear him do so on Tuesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. First time you heard him to do that was Wednesday? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Miss DOUTHIT. Ask her if she ever heard him talk to anybody on the -telephone in English. That is what---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I have assumed that you did hear him talk with people -on the telephone using the English language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, was about jobs, about getting a job. He called -people to get jobs, and then he would become almost mad, and sometimes -he was mad. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know, but he was mad. - -Mr. JENNER. About what? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. About what they were talking about. He would get in a bad -humor, and then the day he made that call, he---- - -Mr. JENNER. Which call? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. That call. - -Mr. JENNER. Wednesday? The call in which he spoke in a foreign language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was real mad. - -Mr. JENNER. He was angry with the person to whom he was speaking over -the telephone? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. But, you couldn't understand what he was saying? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know whether he was angry with the person, or -angry with someone else and explaining it to the person on the phone -about something in anger? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I know he talked in a--he talked in a, I guess it was a -foreign language, and I don't know what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Just sounded irritated? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him in possession, -either in his room, or carrying a long object wrapped in paper or a -blanket or---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or something as long as 45 inches long? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight inches wide? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't have anything like that with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything that you thought could be curtain rods or---- - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Or shades that are on the spring, did he ever have any -package that looked as though that sort of thing might be contained in -it? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing of that nature in his room? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you describe the room? Was it tastefully -decorated or--shades, curtains? There was no need for him to have -any--bring anything in to decorate that room, was there? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do so? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Brought nothing in of that nature? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was no discussion with you on that subject? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You do have a distinct recollection, do you, that he was -there on Friday, that would be the 11th, I think? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Friday. That is the day that he stayed in his room all -day. - -Mr. JENNER. Stayed in his room all day long? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just went to the bathroom and came back. - -Mr. JENNER. That was Friday, October 11? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 12th, that would be Saturday the 12th of October, -did he receive any phone calls? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me about that? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I think he called somebody--somebody called him, -and I judged it was his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone, or did he? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son answered. - -Mr. JENNER. Your son answered the phone? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. And he called him to the phone, and seemed like that she -was going to have a child and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you gather this from what you heard him say? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. From what they said. - -Mr. JENNER. From his end of the conversation? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. From him, and then I thought he was going to move, and -you see, I was tickled to death, so, then said, "Well, I will meet -her," or, said that he would meet her, said he would go to the hospital -and meet her, see, but he didn't never get to it, I judged that is what -he said. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard enough of the conversation that you have the -recollection that he said something about his wife possibly having to -go to the hospital? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For the delivery of her child? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time you had any knowledge that his wife -was with child? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about that to him? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't mention it. I never did mention about that -man talking to him either, because it wasn't any of my business. - -Mr. JENNER. Which man? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. This man who called and talked to him in the foreign -language. I never did see him. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you know it was a man? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I just judged that it was. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the conversation? He was talking in a -foreign language? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You assumed from that that whoever was on the other line -was likewise talking in a foreign language, and you assumed a man, -though you didn't know? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know, so, I didn't say that, because I don't -know, but I never did say anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe that's about all I have. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. What time is it? I'm tired. - -Mr. BALL. It is 5 minutes until 11. - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he is going to ask something, too, and I will be -up here at 12. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, this deposition will be written up by the -reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change -it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we -will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is. - -Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the -signature? - -Miss DOUTHIT. I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her -to sign it. - -Mr. BALL. Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive -the signature? - -Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Fine. You will know that you won't be bothered any more then. - -Thank you very much, Mrs. Bledsoe. - -Mr. JENNER. We do want you to know that we appreciate your coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. WHALEY - - -The testimony of William W. Whaley was taken at 1:50 p.m., on April 8, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, please. - -Mr. WHALEY. William W. Whaley. - -Mr. BELIN. You live in Dallas, Mr. Whaley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You previously testified before the Commission in -Washington, is that correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now before you came to Washington, did you and I ever meet? - -Mr. WHALEY. Your face is familiar, sir. I still can't tell you whether -I knew you here, or in Washington, or where? - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. - -Mr. WHALEY. You refresh my memory. - -Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to -Washington, approximately? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't -remember the exact date. - -Mr. BELIN. You testified before the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now Mr. Ball and I were with you earlier today over the noon -hour, is that correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Ball and I saw you in Washington, is that correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. Now I don't know if that is correct or not, but your face -is very familiar. - -Mr. BELIN. You think you have seen me before? - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. It might have been in Washington when you were there? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it could have been. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, today at noon there were six people including -yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a -passenger on November 22, is that correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. One of them is sitting here in this room, Dr. Goldberg, over -there. Do you see him? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you and I got in the car, and then Secret Service Agent -John Joe Hewlett. We drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then there was Mr. Joe Ball, Joseph A. Ball, and then a Mr. -Davis, this tall light-haired person? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Davis is from the attorney general's office in Texas. - -Now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the Greyhound Bus -Depot here in Dallas? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you point out the place where you said you picked up -this passenger? - -Mr. WHALEY. I did, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. We had a stopwatch, didn't we? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you directed us to take a certain route, is that -correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the route from the Greyhound Bus Depot that you -directed us? - -Mr. WHALEY. On the right from the Greyhound and Lamar to Jackson; right -on Jackson and left at Austin and right at Wood. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. WHALEY. Then left on Houston, which is the approach to the viaduct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to Houston? - -You turned left? - -Mr. WHALEY. I said west to Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go? - -Mr. WHALEY. You go on the approach past the Union Terminal and up the -ramp which is called the Houston Street viaduct. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. WHALEY. You run into Zangs Boulevard. - -Mr. BELIN. How far on Zangs? - -Mr. WHALEY. To Beckley. Beckley crosses it. We got to the intersection -of Zangs and Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. Did we go about the speed you drove that day? - -Mr. WHALEY. Almost. Going across the viaduct is just about the speed, -but he slowed down going up Zangs Boulevard. He slowed down a little -slower than I was going. - -My normal rate of speed, I don't remember the exact speed I was -traveling, but I assume it was normal, because that is the way I travel -all the time when traffic is clear enough. - -Mr. BELIN. Your normal rate of speed would be a little bit faster than -the rate that he took? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In other words, not enough to make over half a -minute difference in the timing. - -Mr. BELIN. Was traffic clearer on that particular day of November 22? - -Mr. WHALEY. It was extra clear, for some reason. That street was clear -except when I hit Beckley. When I hit Beckley, there was cars turning -to the left, and I had to stop for the light. - -Mr. BELIN. When we got to Beckley at noon today, or shortly thereafter, -the traffic light was green, but you told us you had stopped, so we -waited through the red light, did we not? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then he turned on Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Heading south? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when this man that you picked up on November 22 got into -your cab, where did he say he wanted to go? - -Mr. WHALEY. To the 500 block of North Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. I will take you back to November 22. - -You turned south on Beckley and then where did you go as you turned -south on Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. I went right up on Beckley headed toward the 500 block. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. WHALEY. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley -and Neely, he said, "This will do right here," and I pulled up to the -curb. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that was the 700 block. - -Mr. BELIN. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of -North Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you crossed Neely Street yet when you let him off? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far north of Neely street did you let the man off? - -Mr. WHALEY. About 20 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went down to the police station to identify this -man? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw a lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all? - -Mr. WHALEY. There was four of them, sir, and from the right to the -left, he was No. 3. - -Mr. BELIN. Starting from the right to the left, from his right or your -right? - -Mr. WHALEY. From your right, sir, which would have been his left. There -were numbers above their heads, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, what number did you say the man was in the -lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. No. 2. - -Mr. BELIN. From the right or from your right? - -Mr. WHALEY. From my left. - -Mr. BELIN. No. 2? - -Mr. WHALEY. They brought out four of them and stood them up there, and -he was under No. 2. I mentioned he was the third one that come out. -There were four and all handcuffed together. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you sign an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I will hand you a document which I am calling Whaley -Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to say if your signature appears on -there? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is my signature. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I notice in the statement there it says that you -traveled Wood Street to Houston Street, turned left and went over the -viaduct to Zangs Boulevard. You see that statement there? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on -Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in -the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped." - -Now is that what you told them on that day? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the -500 block, or not? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I -drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place -when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through -the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed -it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 -block of North Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now -know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound -Bus Station * * *" - -Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man? - -Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see -the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to -the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. You signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, now, let's get this straight. You are getting me -confused. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I will put it this way. There was an FBI reporter, FBI -interviewer with you? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. BELIN. And there was an interview with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. And Bill Alexander from the district attorney's office -was there, also. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, the last sentence. - -Mr. WHALEY. Let me tell you how they fixed this up. They had me in the -office saying that. They were writing it out on paper, and they wrote -it out on paper, and this officer, Leavelle, I think that is his name, -before he finished and before I signed he wanted me to go with him to -the lineup, so I went to the lineup, and I come back and he asked me -which one it was, which number it was, and I identified the man, and we -went back up in the office again, and then they had me sign this. That -is as near as I can remember. - -My recollection for that afternoon in that office was very disturbed -because everytime they would open the door, some flash camera would -flash in your face and everybody coming in and out and asking you -questions. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean reporters? - -Mr. WHALEY. I made this statement more to Bill Alexander, because I -tried to talk to him more. Everybody was trying to talk to me at once. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw the statement the first time, did you see the -statement before you went down to see the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. No; I didn't see the statement. I don't think I did. I am -not for sure. - -I think I signed it after I came back. It was on paper. They were -writing it up on paper. - -Mr. BELIN. They were writing? - -Mr. WHALEY. Before I left there, I signed this typewritten, because -they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. I had to wait. - -Mr. BELIN. But was this before or after you saw the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. After she typed it up. It was after. - -Mr. BELIN. It was after? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is when I signed it, after. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you signed it--what I want to know is, before you -went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you -saw was the No. 3 man in the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't remember that. I don't remember whether it said -three or two, or what. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they have any statements on there before you went down -to the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. I never saw what they had in there. It was all written out -by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and that could be -writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed my name because -they said that is what I said. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Whaley---- - -Mr. WHALEY. I know, sir, but I don't think you can understand what I -had to put up with that afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean with the press? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; with everything. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I do understand, sir, and I appreciate that you were -under a great deal of pressure at that time, and I want to try and -get at the actual facts, and that is why we asked you to come back to -testify again, because we wanted to know basically whether or not the -man that you drove in the cab got off in the 500 block or the 700 block. - -Mr. WHALEY. The man I drove in the cab got off where I told you he got -off, this morning. - -I picked him up, and I showed you where I picked him up, and the trip -runs 95 cents on the meter. He gave me a dollar and got off and he -never spoke a word to me, except he wanted to go to 500 North Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember a woman coming up to the cab? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened then? - -Mr. WHALEY. The lady, I don't remember whether she was very old, but -she was middle-aged. She bent down and stuck in and said, "Can I have -this cab?" And he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. I -thought he was going to let her have it. - -I told her there would be another one, and she said, "Would you please -call me one." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to the woman, that you can remember? - -Mr. WHALEY. When she wanted to know if she could have the cab, I don't -know, but I got a faint hunch he did tell her she could have this one, -or something like that. What it was, I was watching my left-hand side. -I wanted to pull out when the light changed. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when you saw a lineup down at the police station---- - -Mr. WHALEY. He didn't have on the same clothes. He had on a white -T-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember now whether the man that you saw there was -the No. 2 or the No. 3 man? - -Mr. WHALEY. I will admit he was No. 2. - -Mr. BELIN. No. 2 from your left, or from your right? - -Mr. WHALEY. He was the third man out in the line of four as they walked -out in a line. They put the first man out on the right, and the last -one on my left, and as near as I can remember, he was No. 2, but it was -the man I hauled. - -Mr. BELIN. It says here the No. 3. - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, I am not trying to mix nobody up. I'm giving it to -you the best of my ability. - -Mr. BELIN. Your memory right now is that it was the No. 2 man? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is the way it is right now. I don't think it will -change again. - -But on that afternoon, all I saw was the man that I hauled up there, -and they asked me which number he was, and I said No. 2. I am almost -sure I did, but I couldn't get up to swear to it that I did, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Just one more minute, if you would, please? - -Mr. Whaley, earlier in your testimony here you said that Lee Harvey -Oswald was No. 3. Do you remember saying that? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I meant that he was the third one out when -they walked out with him. I said from my right. - -Mr. BELIN. From your right he was No. 3? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What number was over his head? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, they--when they walked over the line and they stopped -him, No. 2 was over his head, but he was pulling on both of the other -men on each side and arguing with this detective, so he didn't stay -under any certain number. - -He was moving like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him later on television? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. You never did see his picture in the paper? - -Mr. WHALEY. I saw his picture in the paper the next morning, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That would have been Sunday morning, the 24th? - -Mr. WHALEY. I guess it was, if you say it was, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I don't want to---- - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't want to get you mixed up and get your whole -investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a good defense -attorney could take me apart. I get confused. I try to tell you exactly -what happened, to the best of my ability, when they brought Oswald out -in the lineup of four. He was the third man out. I don't know which way -they count them. - -Mr. BELIN. We don't want you to be concerned about affecting the -investigation one way or the other by what you say. What we want you to -say is tell us what you know, to the best of your recollection. - -Mr. WHALEY. That is exactly what I am doing, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. What day of the week did you take this -cab passenger, on a Friday or Saturday? - -Mr. WHALEY. I would have to see my trip sheet. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the day of the motorcade? - -Mr. WHALEY. The day of the President's parade, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, was it that day that you went down to the police -station to see the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the next day? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. The next day you went down to the Dallas Police Station and -saw a lineup of how many people? - -Mr. WHALEY. Four people. - -Mr. BELIN. These men came out and there were numbers above their heads? - -Mr. WHALEY. The numbers were stationary. Looked through a black silk -screen at them. In other words, they were very dim, the numbers. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see as the number over the man that you -identified as having been in your cab that day? - -Mr. WHALEY. No. 2. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see a picture of that man in the paper at any time? - -Mr. WHALEY. Saturday morning, sir; following the event on Friday. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw his picture in the paper? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man that you identified as No. 2 in the -lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see his picture in the paper again? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I take that back, sir. I saw the picture in the -paper when they had, when Ruby killed him at the time between the two -detectives. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the man in connection with the Ruby matter with the two -detectives, did it have his name in the paper as Lee Harvey Oswald? Was -his name in the paper then when you saw his picture? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, I don't think they had it that way. I think they just -had it Oswald. I am not sure what they had under it. I am not for sure, -but I did see the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man you carried in your cab on Friday? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that the man you identified at the police station? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It is your best recollection, if I understand it, that this -was the No. 2 man in the lineup? - -Mr. WHALEY. That's right, sir. That was from the left now. No. 2 from -my left. I was facing him. - -Mr. BELIN. Right. I mean correct. Now, your affidavit which is Whaley's -Deposition Exhibit A, the last sentence says, "The No. 3 man who I now -know as Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound -bus station to the 500 block of North Beckley." Now you say it was the -No. 2 man from your left, is that correct? - -Mr. WHALEY. From my left. No. 3 from my right. - -Mr. BELIN. What about whether or not you carried him to the 500 block -of North Beckley. Did you carry him there? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. That is where he asked me. That is where I put on -my trip sheet. - -Mr. BELIN. You had it on the trip sheet the 500 block of North Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you put it on your trip sheet, before or after you -let him out? - -Mr. WHALEY. After, sir; a good while after. - -Mr. BELIN. Why? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, see, sometimes when you are busy you make three or -four trips before you ever write one up. - -Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you put it on your trip sheet for 700 instead of -500 North Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Because that is what he told me and that is what I remember -when I wrote the trip up. I imagine there were hundreds of trip sheets, -because people get off before they get where they are going. But I -remember the thing that way. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first ascertain or start thinking about it that -it was the 700 block of North Beckley where you let him off? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, when the FBI man got in my cab and he wanted to go -over the route. - -Mr. BELIN. When was this? - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't know the exact date, sir, but it was the next week. - -Mr. BELIN. In the next week you told the FBI that it was the 700 block? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I don't recall. I know I took him to where I let -him out. - -Mr. BELIN. You did? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was the 700 block of North -Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. I left it said just like I had it on my trip -sheet. Nobody else asked me about it. - -Mr. BELIN. When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch -from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do -you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch? - -Mr. WHALEY. A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer -or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today? - -Mr. WHALEY. It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take -a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to -my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped -on the lights that I stopped on. - -Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and -30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride, -and let the record further show that Dr. Goldberg and Mr. Robert Davis -from the Texas attorney general's office and I walked back from the -point where the Deponent Whaley told us he let the passenger off at the -residence at 1026 North Beckley, and that this walk took 5 minutes and -45 seconds. - -And let the record further show that after visiting the rooming house -at 1026 North Beckley--that is what I call the "long way around -route,"--was walked from 1026 North Beckley to the scene of the Tippit -shooting, which took 17 minutes and 45 seconds at an average walking -pace, and this route would be to take Beckley to 10th Street and then -turn on 10th Street toward Patton, and this is not the most direct -route. Rather, the most direct route would be to take Beckley to Davis -Street and then turn left or east on Davis, walking a short block to -Crawford, and taking Crawford to 10th, and then 10th east to Patton, or -taking Davis Street directly to Patton, and taking Patton down to East -10th, and that the more direct nature of the later route appears from -the map which I believe is Commission's Exhibit No. 371, which is the -Dallas street map. - -Mr. Whaley, is there anything else that you care to add, or can you add -anything else that might be helpful in this investigation? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I can't. - -Mr. BELIN. We sure appreciate all your help and taking the time to go -over the route today. - -Mr. WHALEY. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you -before. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can -come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it -before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. -You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can -waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington. - -Mr. WHALEY. Does it make any difference? - -Mr. BELIN. It does not make any difference. - -Mr. WHALEY. It will all be what you said and what she took down? - -Mr. BELIN. What you said? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; and what I said? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. WHALEY. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLENE ROBERTS - -The testimony of Mrs. Earlene Roberts was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and -Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. -Alfred Goldberg was present. - - -Mr. BALL. Would you stand and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Mrs. Earlene Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. And what is your address? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. 5000 Tremont, now. - -Mr. BALL. You used to live at 1026 North Beckley, didn't you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, Mrs. Roberts, where you -were born and where you have lived? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I was born in Nashville, Tenn., and my mother and father -moved to Tyler, Tex., and I was raised there and married a Dallas man. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Tyler? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. To my sorrows, I got married in the ninth grade. - -Mr. BALL. You did--you got married in the ninth grade? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get married in Dallas or in Tyler? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. In Tyler. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have some children? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; to my sorrows--I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do in Tyler then--until you came to Dallas? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I was a PBX operator at the Hotel Blackstone. That's -where I met my husband. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you lived here? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Since 1938. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, until he passed away--I didn't work for I didn't -have to. He made me a good living, but since that time I have -been--well, just, I guess you would call it practical nursing or -housekeeping and now I am with an elderly couple--he has cancer--the -same kind that Sam Rayburn had and he's taken with leukemia. - -Mr. BALL. That's at the address you have just given us? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you know Mrs. Johnson, don't you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I knew her very muchly so. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work for her? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, this last time I was there around 13 months--that -was the third time I had went back. - -Mr. BALL. When did you start working for her? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I started working for her in 1949 the first time. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you worked for her three times altogether? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I got sick the first time--I'm a diabetic and wasn't -able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know -if I would do it and I went back and stayed again and I went in a coma -and had to leave, and the reason why I left this time, she cut me down -so low and the work was too heavy--I wasn't able to do the work. - -Mr. BALL. You mean she cut you down on your money? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes; and I can't pay my doctor bill and buy my -medicine at that price. - -Mr. BALL. You mean, she didn't pay you enough--that's the reason you -quit? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That's the reason why I quit--the work was too heavy and -I wasn't able to do it and not enough pay. - -Mr. BALL. And you were working there in October and November of last -fall--1963? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; to my sorrows. - -Mr. BALL. Why to your sorrows? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was registered as O. H. Lee and I come to find -out he was Oswald and I wish I had never known it. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they put me through the third degree. - -Mr. BALL. Who did? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. The FBI, Secret Service, Mr. Will Fritz' men and Bill -Decker's. - -Mr. BALL. They did? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Every time I would walk out on the front porch somebody -was standing with a camera on me--they had me scared to death. - -Mr. BALL. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. The day he came in and rented the room--the 14th of -October. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of the man before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, and he didn't register as Oswald--he registered as O. -H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. Did he sign his name? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. Did he sign his own name that way? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee--that's what he was registered as. - -Mr. BALL. Did you rent it to him, or did Mrs. Johnson? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I rented the room to him. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. She talked to him, and she had to go back to the work and -that was what I was supposed to do--I rented the rooms--she didn't know -what vacancies she had. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have "room for rent" sign out in the front? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did he come in there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, it was in the early afternoon--I imagine between 1 -and 2 o'clock when he came in and looked at the room; and he rented it -and paid for it; and then left, and went and got his things and I don't -know--it must have been around 5 or 6 o'clock when he come back in. - -Mr. BALL. You say he went and got his things--what did he have with him -at first when he came there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Just a little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a satchel bag? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. One of them little zip kinds. - -Mr. BALL. What color was it? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. It was just--don't ask me that for I can't answer that. -It was just a dark bag is all I know. - -Mr. BALL. How long did he stay that first time? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oswald? - -Mr. BALL. I mean before he went away to get his clothes, when he first -came in--you say he rented a room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He rented the room and paid me $8 for it and he said, -"I'll go get my things and I will be back." - -Mr. BALL. Did he say where he was going to get them? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did he leave? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; he left. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a car he was riding in? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't see it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he take a bus? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't. I don't remember--you know in a place like -that--when you rent a room--I didn't pay no attention. - -Mr. BALL. And he came back about what time? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, I imagine around 5 o'clock, maybe. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have with him at that time? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That little zipper satchel bag and some clothes on a -hanger. - -Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you he had a zipper satchel -bag? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; he didn't have nothing when he first come in and -rented the room. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't have anything? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he just came in. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, when he came back he had the zipper satchel and the -clothes on the hanger, is that right? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he rented the room and paid for it and said, "I'll -go get my things." That's when he went and come back with his little -satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger, which was a very few. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did he have anything to say when he came back? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he had been? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did he stay there that night? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about anything? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; because he wouldn't talk. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say "Hello"? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Or, "Goodby"? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Or anything? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He wouldn't say nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes--I would say, "Good afternoon," and he would -just maybe look at me--give me a dirty look and keep walking and go on -to his room. - -Mr. BALL. Did he watch television? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--in a way--but all he did ever watch the television -was if someone in the other rooms had it on, maybe he would come and -stand at the back of the couch--not over 5 minutes and go to his room -and shut the door and never say a word. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go out any at night? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did he stay home every night? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--he stayed home every night--I didn't ever know of -him going out. If he did, he left after I went to bed and I never knew -it. - -Mr. BALL. Was he gone any weekends? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He would leave on Friday nights--he did say this much--he -said, "Now, over weekends I will be out of town." He didn't say what -town. He said, "I will be going out of town visiting friends." He would -leave Friday morning for work and he wouldn't come back any more until -Monday afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was one weekend when he didn't come back on Monday? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; there was one weekend that he didn't go out. - -Mr. BALL. Which one was that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, as far as--you know what? - -Mr. BALL. Was that the weekend? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I think--now, if I had the books, I could tell you. - -Mr. BALL. Which books? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. The books that are over there on North Beckley. I believe -it was on the weekend before--when was President Kennedy shot? - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. What day was that--that was on Friday, wasn't it? - -Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was on the weekend before that. - -Mr. BALL. What happened--what was that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't go nowhere. - -Mr. BALL. He stayed in all weekend, is that right? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir; and then that first Thursday, he got up -Thursday and left for work and he didn't come back no more until -Friday. - -Mr. BALL. He left on Thursday and didn't come home on Thursday night? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't spend Thursday night there and that was -unusual, because he would always leave on Friday. That's the best I -can do. He was just the type of person you just don't know--and I just -thought he didn't like people and he would mix with nobody and he -wouldn't say nothing. The only time he would ever say anything was when -his rent was due and he was never behind. - -I'll tell you when it was--it was when he didn't come back on Monday, -you know, there was a holiday that people took off work. - -Mr. BALL. That was Armistice Day. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That he said, "I have a long weekend." - -Mr. BALL. He didn't come back on that Monday? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come back until the next day. He said he -had a long weekend. - -Mr. BALL. That was after his long weekend he came back on a Tuesday -that week? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it--who would forget that? - -Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men--it was plainclothesmen and -I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and -they identified themselves and then he called me. - -Mr. BALL. What did they say? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald -there. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the -housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, -"No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me -remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and -there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. -Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is -my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a -year. - -Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name--you didn't ever know his name -was Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for -Harvey Lee Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. You say that you saw Lee Oswald--you say he didn't come home -Thursday night that week? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week. - -Mr. BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen -him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on -your door? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day. - -Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday---- - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it. - -Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute--he came home that Friday -in an unusual hurry. - -Mr. BALL. And about what time was this? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I -had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and -I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What -are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it -on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up--I could -hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and -I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said -a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 -minutes. - -Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in -a hurry"? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. You were working with the television? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and -try to find out about President Kennedy. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a -hurry,"--why did you say that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking -unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up -and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." - -Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in--he didn't look around at me--he didn't -say nothing and went on to his room. - -Mr. BALL. Did he run? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast--he was -all but running. - -Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but -I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color -it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on--it was kind of a -zipper jacket. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did--if I did, I don't remember it. - -Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves. - -Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I -was interested in the television trying to get it fixed. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it--the -shirt, or do you know? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember--I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket. - -Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit -162--have you ever seen this jacket before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems -like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, -because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket? - -Mr. BALL. Yes--it has a zipper down the front. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was. - -Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, -he was zipping it up as he went out the door. - -Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then, when you saw him, did you see any part of his belt? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. There is some suspicion that when he left there he might have -had a pistol or a revolver in his belt; did you see anything like that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 150--it is a -shirt--have you seen that before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have. Now, that looks kind of like the dark -shirt that he had on. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald came in, he was in a shirt--does this shirt -look anything like the shirt he had on? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. It was a dark shirt he had on--I think it was a dark one, -but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what--I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Does the color of this shirt which I show you here, -Commission Exhibit No. 150, look anything like the shirt he had on? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm sorry, I just don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald -came in? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe -a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been -shot--what time I wouldn't want to say because---- - -Mr. BALL. How long did he stay in the room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes--just long enough, I -guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out -zipping it. - -Mr. BALL. You recall he went out zipping it--was he running or walking? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He was walking fast--he was making tracks pretty fast. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you as he went out? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Probably wouldn't have gotten no answer. - -Mr. BALL. What is the only thing you said to him from the time he came -in the house until he left? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. "You sure are in a hurry." - -Mr. BALL. Is that all? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That was all. - -Mr. BALL. That's all you said to him? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That's all I said to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Nothing. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't say nothing--he wouldn't say nothing--period. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he left, or do you -know? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. What? - -Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he came in as when -he went out? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, I wouldn't say that because I don't remember--I -didn't pay that much attention. I didn't mean to be hateful, but I -didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did it appear to you he had on the same pants or -different pants from the time he came in and when he went out? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I just didn't pay that much attention. All I -remember--he was zipping up a coat and I was trying to find out about -President Kennedy--I was still trying to find out about President -Kennedy--they was broadcasting it then--I was more interested in that. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a gun in his room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever cleaned up his room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I cleaned his rooms, but I didn't see no gun. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go through any of his effects? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, no. - -Mr. BALL. There was a little wooden commode or closet in there, wasn't -there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. There was a chifforobe--yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever look in there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir; I sure didn't--that's against the rules--to -ransack their things. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any drawers or anything in there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; there was drawers in that chifforobe and he also had -a vanity dresser with four drawers. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever look inside of that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. After he left the house and at sometime later in the -afternoon, these police officers came out, did they? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes. - -Mr. BALL. And they asked you if there was a man named Lee Oswald there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you told them "No"? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was trying to make us understand that--I had two -new men and they told me--Mrs. Johnson told me, "Go get your keys and -let them see in" I had gone to the back and they still had the TV on, -and they was broadcasting about Kennedy. - -Just as I unlocked the doors Fritz' men, two of them had walked in and -she come running in and said, "Oh, Roberts, come here quick. This is -this fellow Lee in this little room next to yours," and they flashed -him on television, is how come us to know. - -Mr. BALL. Then you knew it was the man? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; and I come in there and she said, "Wait," and then -again they flashed him back on and I said, "Yes, that's him--that's O. -H. Lee right here in this room." And it was just a little wall there -between him and I. - -Mr. BALL. That was the first you knew who it was? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, because he was registered as O. H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know he had a gun in his room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever appear on a television interview with Mr. or -Mrs. Johnson--either one? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, no; they was on and would be on and then they had -me on twice. - -Mr. BALL. On television? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. On television. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I was in the living room. - -Mr. BALL. And they brought their cameras into the living room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. They brought their cameras into the living room and took -pictures. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I was then, because they was questioning me. They -asked Mr. and Mrs. Johnson not to be in there at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Then, they questioned you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever have an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Johnson -being there? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes; one time, and then they would question them -separate from me. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any one time when they questioned all three of you -together? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--one time. - -Mr. BALL. Just one time--were you ever on television when you and Mrs. -Johnson were on it alone together? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. She and Mr. Johnson would be together and then I would be -at the back when they put them on television, and then they had me on -two different times and I was alone. They taken me when I was standing -and showed them where it was. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on television did they ever ask you if Oswald had a gun? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ever ask you if you knew whether Oswald had a gun in -his room or not? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; they asked me and I told them "No"--for I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he had a gun in there or not? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You never saw one? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell them that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I sure did--I didn't know he had a gun. - -Mr. BALL. And when he was zipping up his jacket, his belt was covered? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Was it covered--well--I don't know. I just couldn't -answer you--I don't know--I don't remember it. I couldn't any more tell -you than the man in the moon whether or not the man's belt was covered -or uncovered. All I know he was zipping his coat. - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you another question: Did you ever talk to a -reporter from a French newspaper? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. A French newspaper? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, there was people in there from about everywhere, -but I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. There was some French newspaperman who claims he interviewed -you. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. French? - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any French newspapermen interviewing you? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't remember, but there were people in there from -somewhere but I don't remember where they were from. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald before the -Friday when the police came out? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you had, of course, thought his name was what? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. He had paid you, had he? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He always paid on time. - -Mr. BALL. And you made a record of it? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, after these police officers came out of there, did you -see a gun holster in his room after they had searched it? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--there was one of them little outfits--a little -holster and they taken it out and where they got it--I don't know, but -it was in the room. They had it in their hands, one of the men was -holding it. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I hadn't. - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you something about his habits again--how early -would he leave his room in the morning? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would leave around 7 o'clock, maybe between 6:30 -and 7. - -Mr. BALL. And what time would he come back? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would get home about maybe 5--something around 5 -o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. And with the exception of the weekends that he spent away, -was he home every night or was he out at night? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He was always home at night--he never went out. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on one holiday that occurred on Monday--he didn't come -in? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come in that Monday. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the only Monday he didn't come in? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. That was the only Monday he didn't come in. - -Mr. BALL. He paid on Monday? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He paid on Monday and that was the only time he didn't -pay on Monday and he wasn't there. - -Mr. BALL. He paid on what day of the week that week? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Tuesday--when he came in home. - -Mr. BALL. But the weekend before November 22d, he was there all -weekend, was he? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I also will ask you whether or not you ever heard of a -fellow by the name of Ruby--did you ever hear of a fellow by the name -of Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard his name before he was accused of shooting -Oswald? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. - -Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I never heard his name. - -Mr. BALL. And had never seen him? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did a police car pass the house there and honked? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When was that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. He came in the house. - -Mr. BALL. When he came in the house? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. When he came in the house and went to his room, you know -how the sidewalk runs? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Right direct in front of that door--there was a police -car stopped and honked. I had worked for some policemen and sometimes -they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me -to know, and I thought it was them, and I just glanced out and saw the -number, and I said, "Oh, that's not their car," for I knew their car. - -Mr. BALL. You mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. It wasn't the police car I knew, because their number was -170 and it wasn't 170 and I ignored it. - -Mr. BALL. And who was in the car? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't pay any attention to it after I -noticed it wasn't them--I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it parked? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. It was parked in front of the house. - -Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. And then they just eased on--the way it is--it was the -third house off of Zangs and they just went on around the corner that -way. - -Mr. BALL. Went around what corner? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Went around the corner off of Beckley on Zangs. - -Mr. BALL. Going which way--toward town or away from town? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Toward town. - -Dr. GOLDBERG. Which way was the car facing? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. It was facing north. - -Dr. GOLDBERG. Towards Zangs? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Towards Zangs--for I was the third house right off of -Zangs on Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--it stopped directly in front of my house and it just -"tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely -would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw -it wasn't their number. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald when this happened? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. In his room. - -Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Had that police car ever stopped there before? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I don't remember ever seeing it. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen it since? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't pay that much attention--I just saw it -wasn't the police car that I knew and had worked for so, I forgot about -it. I seen it at the time, but I don't remember now what it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you report the number of the car to anyone? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I think I did--I'm not sure, because I--at that -particular time I remembered it. - -Mr. BALL. You remembered the number of the car? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I think it was--106, it seems to me like it was 106, but -I do know what theirs was--it was 170 and it wasn't their car. - -Mr. BALL. It was not 170? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. The people I worked for was 170. - -Mr. BALL. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this -incident to anyone? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they -was out there. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell them the number of the car? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I -did because--there was so much happened then until my brains was in a -whirl. - -Mr. BALL. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and -James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you -and you told them that "after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. -on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police -car No. 207." - -Mrs. ROBERTS. No. 107. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the number? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--I remembered it. I don't know where I got that -106--207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170. - -Mr. BALL. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the -car? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident -squad car at all. - -Mr. BALL. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. And one of the officers sounded the horn? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice. - -Mr. BALL. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that -right? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't -remember it but I did know the number of their car--I could tell that. -I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree -and it's hard to remember. - -Mr. BALL. Are there any other questions? - -Dr. GOLDBERG. No, that's all. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Mrs. Roberts, this deposition will be written up and you -can read it if you want to and you can sign it, or you can waive the -signature. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm -completely blind in my right eye. - -Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? And then you won't have -to come back down here. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, okay. - -Mr. BALL. All right, you waive it then? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. - -Do you want me to sign it now? - -Mr. BALL. No; we couldn't, because this young lady has to write it up -and it will be a couple of weeks before it will be ready. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, will you want me to come back or how? - -Mr. BALL. Well, you can waive your signature and you won't have to come -back to do that--do you want to do that? - -Mrs. ROBERTS. Okay, it will be all right. - -Mr. BALL. All right. The Secret Service will take you home now. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming. - -Mrs. ROBERTS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DOMINGO BENAVIDES - - -The testimony of Domingo Benavides was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 2, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to raise your hand and stand up and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you state your name for our reporter, please? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Domingo Benavides. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I am 27, April the 9th. I am now 26. - -Mr. BELIN. Single or married? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Married. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Two children and one expected sometime this month. - -Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. From Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. You were born in Dallas? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Dallas? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Tenth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of school? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I just went to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you work first? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Merchants Delivery. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I was helper on a truck and part-time mechanic; mechanic -helper. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine about 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I went into the Navy. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yeoman and seaman. - -Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Three years. - -Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You did not have an honorable discharge? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Navy? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I returned to work for Merchants Delivery. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, just from there I jumped around from roofing -companies. I started in roofing then and I worked for Donald Bost, -which is Town & Country Roofing Co., for on up until about 4 years ago, -I guess. Then I just started mechanicing. - -Mr. BELIN. You started to become an automobile mechanic? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. For whom did you work then? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I worked in Martinez, Calif., for Donley Chevrolet & -Cadillac Co., and then later on I was transferred to their paint and -body shop, and then I came back to Dallas and I worked for Mr. Harris. - -Mr. BELIN. For whom? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Mr. Harris, at Dootch Motors. - -Mr. BELIN. Dootch Motors? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? That is, as a mechanic? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been working for Dootch now? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, off and on about 3 years. During this time I went -back to Merchants Delivery and worked there and then I worked for -Southern Delivery, too. - -Mr. BELIN. Now when was the last time you went back to Dootch Motors? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It's been a year ago. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them ever since? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to November 22, 1963, anything unusual -happen that day? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. On the 22d? - -Mr. BELIN. 22d of November 1963? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. This would be embarrassing. Was that the day of the -Assassination of the President? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I was thinking it was the 24th. Well, nothing except it -seemed like a pretty nice day. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what day of the week it was? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the day that the President was assassinated? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that he was assassinated in Dallas? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, yes; I remember this. - -Mr. BELIN. That day you had lunch, were you at work that day? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You had lunch? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I had lunch. And then this man had stalled this car in -the middle of the street and asked me if I would fix it. Something was -wrong with the carburetor, or pump that had broken in it, and I went -around to the parts house to get the parts for it. - -Mr. BELIN. Where had the man's car stopped in the middle of the street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, on Patton Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Patton and what? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Between Jefferson and 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. A car stopped in the middle of the street between---- - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Jefferson and Tenth. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time of day was this? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine it was about 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. You imagine it was about 1 o'clock? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It was after lunch. I had already eaten. It was after I -had lunch and I had eaten around 12, somewhere around 12 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? You were going to get a carburetor part, so -what did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I was in a rush and I ran off and forgot the number of -the carburetor. - -Mr. BELIN. You forgot the number of the carburetor? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I circled back. I left down the alley. - -Mr. BELIN. Which alley is this? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The one directly between 10th and Patton and Jefferson -Street. - -Mr. BELIN. It runs parallel to 10th and Jefferson and it runs, the -alley would run east of Patton Street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. The alley runs right behind Dootch Motors there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of vehicle were you driving? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. 1958 pickup truck Chevrolet. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, what route did you take? Were you headed east or -west in the alley? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. East. - -Mr. BELIN. To what? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. To Denver street. - -Mr. BELIN. Which is the next street over from Patton? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. First street east of Patton, then where? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I turned right, which is east on 10th. Wait. Denver -would be north, I imagine. I turned from the alley north on Denver. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. And east on 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you turned east on---- - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The parts house sets on Marsalis and 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. Marsalis and 10th? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; so I got almost up to the parts house and I thought -about the number, so I was going to go back and get the number off the -carburetor. I turned in a drive and turned around and started back. - -Mr. BELIN. On what street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. On 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. On East 10th? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I was going west on 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I got almost up to the corner when I seen the -policeman. I first seen the car stop up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you say you got almost to a corner. What corner was -that? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. At Denver and 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. You almost got up to Denver and 10th heading west on 10th -Street when you saw something? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw this police car. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw a police car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It was sitting about 4 or 5 feet from the curb and down -about 2 houses from the corner of Patton Street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Was it between Patton and Denver? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. On what side of East 10th, north or south? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. On the south side. - -Mr. BELIN. What direction was it headed? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed east. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see then? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by -the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, -and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side -of the car. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the officer as he was getting out of -the car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I seen as he was, well, he had his hand on the door -and kind of in a hurry to get out, it seemed like. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he already gotten out of the car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He had already gotten around. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the other man? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The other man was standing to the right side of the -car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the -windshield on the right front fender. And then I heard the shot. -Actually I wasn't looking for anything like that, so I heard the shot, -and I just turned into the curb. Looked around to miss a car, I think. - -And then I pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and I ducked down, -and then I heard two more shots. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I heard three shots. - -Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when your vehicle stopped? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe -a car length away from the police car. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you have been a car length to the east or a car length -to the west of the police car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. East of the front side of it. - -Mr. BELIN. So your vehicle wouldn't have quite gotten up to where the -police car was? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; it didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. How fast were you going when you watched the policeman -getting out of his car? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, I imagine not maybe 25 miles an hour. I never did -pay much attention to it. - -Mr. BELIN. You say you stopped the car right away? Your vehicle, I mean? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. I just didn't exactly stop because--I just -pulled it into the curb. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you say you heard a shot and you then ducked? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in. - -Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I ducked down. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the -policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the policeman as he fell? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did you see? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk -and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of -stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have -took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he -kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the man going around the corner headed in what -direction on what street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. On Patton Street. He was going south. - -Mr. BELIN. He was going south on Patton Street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; do you know Dootch Motors? - -Mr. BELIN. Do I know Dootch Motors? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was -going? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. On the east side. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him going on the east? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go down Patton? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other -words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his position? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that -shot him? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing like I say, on the center in front of -the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car. - -Mr. BELIN. He was not moving when you saw him? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; he wasn't moving then. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what -did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind -of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I -thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out -and rush right up. He might start shooting again. - -That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the policeman, -and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood -coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and -just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the policeman say anything? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the -ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman as he fell, as you saw him? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half -way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in -front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front -headlight, about middleway when he started to fall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on -his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his -hand, too. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further -than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio -and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, -and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me -whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't -remember where it was at at the time. - -So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw a number on the house then? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Then he started to--then I don't know what he said; but -I put the radio back. I mean, the microphone back up, and this other -guy was standing there, so I got up out of the car, and I don't know, I -wasn't sure if he heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car. - -Mr. BELIN. There was another passerby that stopped? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was he, do you know? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell you. I don't know who he was. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he driving a car or walking? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't know. He was just standing there whenever I -looked up. He was standing at the door of the car, and I don't know -what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to -keep the line clear, or something, and stay off the phone, or something -like that. That he already knew about it. - -So then I turned and walked off. I never did assist him after that at -all. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. At the time I walked out, I guess I was scared, so I -started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's -house, and I got in the yard and I said I'd better go back, or just -caught myself until I got over there, I guess, so I went back around -there. - -Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do? - -First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or -that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right -now? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well. I started--I seen him throw the shells and I -started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when -I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw -the shells? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun -also? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another -shell in his gun. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually -put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it. - -Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been -reloading it or something. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again -the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of -the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. He was just -turning away. - -In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just -turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and -it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into -the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, -until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the -left there and went on down Patton Street. - -Mr. BELIN. When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned -to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go -clear to the corner and turn off? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the -yard. - -Mr. BELIN. He kitty-cornered across the yard? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the -sidewalk. He just cut across the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he -already started across the yard? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he -threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already -cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you saw him throw two shells? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw where he threw the shells? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you later go back in that area and try and find the -shells? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew -exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my -hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints -off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them -up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome -looking shell. - -Mr. BELIN. A chrome looking shell? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you -started looking for them? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked -directly to them. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw where he had thrown them? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other -one was by the bush. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard -three shots. Do you know whether or not he threw other shells there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look at all there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I didn't bother to look there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when he cut across the yard? Did he go -between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on Patton Street, or do you -know? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Between the house and the bush; yes, sir. He had to cut -across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about the man after you saw -him? What was he wearing? What did he look like? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was kind of, well, just about your size. - -Mr. BELIN. About my size? I am standing up. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. You are about 5' 10"? - -Mr. BELIN. I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was about your size, and he had a -light-beige jacket, and was lightweight. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. What color was the trousers? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. They were dark. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what -color. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he average weight, slender, or heavy? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was average weight. - -Mr. BELIN. What color hair did he have? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, dark. I mean not dark. - -Mr. BELIN. Black hair? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No. Not black or brown, just kind of a---- - -Mr. BELIN. My color hair? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit -curlier. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all. - -Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark -complexioned? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark. - -Mr. BELIN. Average complexion? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average. - -Mr. BELIN. My complexion? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about -your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit -ruddier than mine. - -Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine? - -I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22, -1963. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des -Moines, Iowa, at about this time. - -Is there anything else? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline -was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of -tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, -but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and -made his head look flat in back. - -Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this -cigarette package, what did you do with them? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer. - -Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that -this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed -like he was a young guy, maybe 24. - -Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25. - -Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you -had seen? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I -turned around and went back and we returned to work. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with -you? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two -officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told -them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I -was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you -all the time. - -Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the -President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he -had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and -everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen -him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked -me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. - -At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't -going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if -you could identify him? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was -Oswald? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, -resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or -both, or neither? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The -thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every -day for a long time there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was -going on? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what -happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I -said just the policeman got shot. - -Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he -asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened -the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there -was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side -of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or -something of that sort. - -Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what -happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of -the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like -that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on -the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. This cab? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk -on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this -cab had pulled in there by the stop sign. - -Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th -when it was parked there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part -of the cab have been? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6 -feet from the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. From the corner? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be -up on the curb. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came -to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down -Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had -already seen him go by there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen -him go by. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police -station to try to identify the man? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind -of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I -say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd -taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down -there. I think it was the next day, or the day after. - -Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified -him as the guy that came by the carlot. - -Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and -identified him? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me. - -Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What does he do there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager. - -Mr. BELIN. Used-car place? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you -can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as -"Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any -similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had -laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit -150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that. - -Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on -there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen -it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was -arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like -he had a jacket on there. - -Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket -on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now. - -I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I -believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and -he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he -heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled -over, and I don't know if he came back there or not. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything -really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and -they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly -in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you -think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one -day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at -Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men. - -Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as -to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here -to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or -try to tell you things as I saw them? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to -you what happened. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got -here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter -started taking your testimony? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I -added a little bit since she was here. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you -told me before the court reporter got here? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand. - -Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the -court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court -reporter got here? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter -that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or -different in anyway from what you told me before? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Different in wording but---- - -Mr. BELIN. But are the facts different? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I don't believe the facts are different. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and -read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court -reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive -it or not? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. I would like to read it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe I could add something I didn't add. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in -touch with you. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. 3112 June Drive. - -Mr. BELIN. She can reach you at Dootch Motors? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Dootch Motors. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the address? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. 501 East Jefferson. - -Mr. BELIN. You did get notice of the taking of this deposition here -today? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You are here voluntarily appearing in front of the -Commission? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have -shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is -important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us. - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That is the reason I wanted to read this, in case I -might have left out something. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please thank whoever is the general manager at -Dootch Motors for letting you come here and appear before us? - -Mr. BENAVIDES. That is Mr. Harris. - -Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS - -The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on -April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be -sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the court reporter? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis. - -Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. - -Mr. BELIN. In Texas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived in Athens? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, about 6 months. It was after the President was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when the President was shot? - -Mrs. DAVIS. On November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long after that did you move to Athens? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 2 weeks after the President was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, how long have you been married? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Seven months. - -Mr. BELIN. Any children? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. The time you moved to Athens would have been sometime in -December of 1963? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time, had you always lived in Dallas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, after I got married we moved to Dallas and we lived -there ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got married, you moved to Dallas. Before you got -married, where did you live? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Palestine. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you raised there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I was raised in Athens. - -Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Athens. Did you go to school in Athens? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I went to school in Palestine. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The ninth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever been employed at all? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, where were you living when you were living -in Dallas in November of 1963? - -Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that 400 East 10th? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what cross-street runs at 10th there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. 10th and Patton? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of house did you live in? Was it a brick or frame -home? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house. - -Mr. BELIN. A frame apartment house. You and your husband lived in one -apartment? - -Mrs. DAVIS. And my sister and her husband lived in another one. - -Mr. BELIN. There were two apartments there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. On the bottom floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your sister's name? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her husband's name is? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis. - -Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to the afternoon of November 22, do you -remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the boy that was known as Lee Harvey Oswald shot J. -D. Tippit. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, now, did you see him shoot J. D. Tippit? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see. Yes; we heard the shot. He had already -shot him. - -Mr. BELIN. You say you heard a shot? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I was over at my sister-in-law's. - -Mr. BELIN. Her apartment? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where in her apartment were you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I was in the living room. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in the living room? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down. - -Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or -what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the -couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed. - -Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children? - -Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5. - -Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard a shot. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone -had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. -Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure -that you heard two? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Mrs. Markham was trying to say---- - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her first name is? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. I just know her by Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you ever known her before? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and -my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. -Markham. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot -and then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We was already up. We ran to the door. - -Mr. BELIN. By we, who do you mean? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette and I. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to which door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The front door. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the front of the house facing East 10th Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham was standing at the tree. - -Mr. BELIN. If we can picture the street intersection, was she standing -in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was on the sidewalk. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Your house would be located at the -southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would she be standing on a corner that would be right across -10th Street but on the same side of Patton, or across Would it be -catty-cornered or would it be across 10th Street but on the other side? -Maybe we can draw it here on a little paper. - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember it too good. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I have drawn on a piece of paper here a street -intersection and this is Patton and here is 400 East 10th, which would -be your house. Do you want to mark here where you think you saw Mrs. -Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. Do you -want to put an "X" there? - -Mr. BELIN. Please put an "X" there. - -Mrs. DAVIS. (Marks "X".) - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to call that Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 1. -What was Mrs. Markham saying, or did you hear her say anything? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We heard her say "He shot him. He is dead. Call the police." - -Mr. BELIN. Was she saying this in a soft or loud voice? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the -time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of -the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you saw a boy. Do you know how old he was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He didn't look like he was over 20. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color hair he had? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, the best I recall, he had sort of light brown. - -Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he tall or short or average height? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was about average height. - -Mr. BELIN. Fat, thin, or average weight? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Slim. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Slim. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers. - -Mr. BELIN. The trousers were black? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't recall that. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was open. - -Mr. BELIN. But you don't remember what kind of shirt he had on? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he look at you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you first saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was cutting across our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. In what direction was he walking? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking---- - -Mr. BELIN. Away from Patton or towards Patton? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Towards Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, had he gotten up to your yard yet or -not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was cutting over across our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. He was cutting across your walk that leads up to the front -door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far from the main sidewalk on East 10th was he? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. About 3 feet or so? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; when I first saw him. - -Mr. BELIN. Then he was cutting across your sidewalk about 3 feet away -from the main sidewalk? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then did you see him--how long did you see him? Where did -you see him go? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him go around the corner of our house. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when he disappeared around that corner, that is the -last we saw of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him go through any bushes by your house or not? -Or didn't you see him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you didn't see him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him when he cut across our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you last saw him? He was--was he still in -your yard, or was he on the sidewalk on Patton Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was still in our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We already called the police. - -Mr. BELIN. You called the police before you saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. When Mrs. Markham was standing across the street hollering, -she told us to call the police, so Jeanette and I went in there, and -Jeanette called the police and we went back and he was cutting across -our yard, and we gave him time to go on because we were afraid he might -shoot us. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you call the police before or after you saw him cut -across your yard? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Before. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, to your--to the best of your recollection, -you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw Mrs. Markham--did you see -anything else when you saw Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of -the road. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment -house where he lives in and the house next door. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it on your side of East 10th or the other side of the -street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was on our side, the same side that we lived on. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your -right or towards your left? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer in a police car when you -first saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When your sister went to call the police, did you go with -her, or did you stay by the front door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I went with her. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you hear your sister do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she called the police and told whoever answered the -phone that there had been a murder out in front of our house, to come -quick. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did she do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She hung up and then we went back to the front door and -told the two kids to stay indoors. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went out in the front yard and right down to the -police car and that is when we saw the policeman lying on the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman lying? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was lying just, well, he was half between the front end -of his car and, well, his head was lying toward the front end of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he on the driver's side of the front or on the other -side? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was on the driver's side. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, now, as I understand your testimony, after you -made the call, you went out to the front yard, is that it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went out to see the policeman in the street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you went out in the front yard, were you in the front -yard when the man was going by there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he had already gone when we went outside. - -Mr. BELIN. He had already gone when you went outside? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I thought you said that when you went outside you went on -the sidewalk? - -Mrs. DAVIS. See, all the people had already--see, he was already gone. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he gone by at that time? - -Mrs. DAVIS. By the time we got back from off the phone, he had already -gone. He had already disappeared behind the corner of our house. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him going in front of your house before you -called on the phone? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. When we heard the second shot, we ran to the front -door, and that is when we saw the boy cutting across the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me see if I understand your statement now. You -went to the front door after you heard the second shot? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the front door? Did you open -the front door, or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just looked through the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. You looked through the front door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there a screen door on it or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was a screen door. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking through the screen door, or was the screen -door partially open, if you remember. - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was closed. We was looking through it. - -Mr. BELIN. You were looking through the screen door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you in front of your sister-in-law, or was she in front -of you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was in front of me. - -Mr. BELIN. You were both looking through the screen door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked through the screen door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw a boy walking, cutting across our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you first saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet from the sidewalk. Not the one that -comes up to our front door, but the other sidewalk. - -Mr. BELIN. He was about 3 feet from the front sidewalk on East 10th? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he come up to your sidewalk yet that comes up from East -10th to your front door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, he had already. He was about half on the concrete, I -think. - -Mr. BELIN. He was half on that concrete? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you watch this man do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We watched him unload the shells out of his gun. - -Mr. BELIN. What hand was he holding this gun in? - -Mrs. DAVIS. In the right. - -Mr. BELIN. He was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What was he doing with his left hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was emptying the shells in his left hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the gun broken open, so to speak? In other words. I -don't know if you have ever seen a capgun. When you want to load the -capgun, you have to kind of break it apart on a hinge. - -Was the gun broken apart like that, or was the barrel straight? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was like the real gun, little one. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it was just like? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little -pistol, and he was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, -he was emptying the shells into his left hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them -into his left hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because -we found two. - -Mr. BELIN. You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on -the ground or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see him. - -Mr. BELIN. You just saw him emptying shells in his hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't actually see what he did with them when he got -them in his hand, did you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see the man do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, he just cut across. He disappeared from behind the -corner of the house. - -Mr. BELIN. Going toward what street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, going toward Jefferson Street. - -Mr. BELIN. He was headed on Patton in the direction toward Jefferson? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually get to Patton Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was already around the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him go around the corner of your home? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do or see then? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just went out, because we had already called the -police, notified them, and we went out in the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. You notified the police. Let me ask you this. Did you notify -the police before or after you saw the boy with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, I think it was before. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say before, what do you mean? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before we saw the boy. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you saw the boy you notified the police? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me try and reconstruct your actions then. You -heard the shots? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You ran to the door? - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you got to the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just saw, you know, the police car parked down -there and we wondered what was going on, so we heard Mrs. Markham -across the street calling. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she told us to call the police, well, so went to the -house. We was already in the house, and we went to the phone and called -the police. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went back to the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cutting across the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the -front yard and down to see what had happened. - -Mr. BELIN. Then is that when you saw the policeman? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I saw the policeman lying on the street. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or do anything else? Did you see -anyone else that you know come up to the policeman? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No sir; there was a lot of people around there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of day this was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30, between -1:30 and 2. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, after this, did police come out there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they was already there. - -Mr. BELIN. By the time you got out there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried -to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and -picked him up. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. And we stood out there and talked to this woman who told us -that President Kennedy was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. About what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. This woman had told us that President Kennedy was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. When the police cars was circling all the blocks, about -four or five blocks to see if they could find the boy, and we stayed -out there all that time to see if they would locate him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, did you tell the police, that you had seen anyone -with a gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we told them that we saw a boy carrying a gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, that was---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go down to the police station or identify him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. What day was that? This same day or another day? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Same day. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time of the day was it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was probably about 5:30. - -Mr. BELIN. Who went down with you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, let's see, my sister-in-law. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be Barbara Jeanette Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; and her husband Troy Lee and myself. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the police station? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We stayed there until this detective, some man walked up to -us and led us to this dark room. - -Mr. BELIN. Before they led you to the dark room, did he show you any -pictures of anyone? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures on television of anyone that might -be the man you saw walking with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you watched television at all? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't watch television. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any newspapers that afternoon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we didn't get the newspapers until that following -morning. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you went with the detective to a dark room? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the dark room? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He told us to sit down. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mrs. DAVIS. And then these five boys, or men walked up on this -platform, and he was No. 2. - -Mr. BELIN. You say he was No. 2. Who was No. 2? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean -the man you saw with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The man I saw carrying the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he white or a Negro man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was white. - -Mr. BELIN. Were all the men in the lineup white men or some Negroes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. All of them were white. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe any other people in the lineup as to -whether they might be fat or thin or short or tall? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, one of them was sort, well, he was tall and slim. -And then the other one there, he was sort of chubby and he was short. -Then this other one, he was about the same height as the other one, -the last one I told you about, short and chubby. And the other one was -about--medium tall. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you identified someone in that lineup? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear your sister-in-law identify him first, or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I identified him first. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister when you identified him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was sitting right next to me. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you identify him? Did you yell that this is the man -I saw? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I just leaned over and told the detective it was No. 2. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the detective? Was he to your right or to your -left? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, to my right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister, to your right or to your left? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. As she was to your right, so you leaned over to the -detective and told the detective it was No. 2? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that happened that day? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Later did you ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on -television? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first see it on television? - -Mrs. DAVIS. When they was bringing him out of the jail out here. - -Mr. BELIN. When? - -Mrs. DAVIS. When they were bringing him out of the jail. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean Sunday when he got shot? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did this look, could you tell whether this was the same man -you saw running with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean from seeing his picture on television? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the man you identified as No. 2? Would you say -for sure that he was the man you saw running with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I would say that was him for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. What you are saying is that you couldn't necessarily tell -from the television picture? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. Our television was blurred anyway, so we couldn't -hardly tell. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that you signed a statement when you were -down at the Dallas Police Department at all, or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Virginia Davis -Deposition, Exhibit 2, and ask you to state if this is your signature -on here? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, Sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you read the contents of your deposition Exhibit 2, -and I will ask you if there is anything there that is inaccurate. - -(Reads statement.) - -Mr. BELIN. You have read Exhibit 2? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in that statement that is inaccurate in -any way? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that what you told the police of Dallas on November 22, -1963? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now on this statement it says that you heard a shot and then -another shot and ran to the side door at Patton Street. Was that the -side door or front door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he -was unloading his gun." Is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "We walked outside and a woman was hollering, -'He's dead, he's dead, he's shot.'" Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "This woman told Jeanette to call the police -and she did." Is that what happened? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. It says, "I saw the officer that had been shot lying on 10th -Street after Jeanette had called the police." Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now it says, "Jeanette found a empty shell that the man had -unloaded and gave it to the police." Did you see Jeanette find that -shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. I was right along behind her. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did she find it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She found it beside, well, the apartment was facing this -way. - -Mr. BELIN. Facing Patton Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And we was already outside. We thought maybe we -could find some evidence for the police. So we went through the hedge, -and by my front door of the apartment where we live, right there in the -grass where he dropped them. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the police started to search around your house yet when -they found it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they already started to search. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been to the side of the house or the corner -of the house that you found, that Jeanette found that shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was by the side. - -Mr. BELIN. This would have been by the side of the house that is next -to Patton Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far from the front of the house would it be? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 5 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. About 5 feet. You saw Jeanette find the shell? You saw her -pick it up from the ground? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What color was it, do you remember? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The best I can recall, it was gray, one of these---- - -Mr. BELIN. The best you can recall, it was gray? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Jeanette do with it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She gave it to some detective. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see her find any other shells? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I found one after Jeanette, after all the police had gone. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you find yours? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 10 minutes after all the police had gone. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you went down to the police station? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was before. - -Mr. BELIN. About when before? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I would say it was about 2:30, or 4. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, when did you say you found this other shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 4. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see or know of anyone else finding any other shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did with your shell when you found -it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before I picked it up, this boy told me that was -walking along with us helping us find, see if we could find anything -for evidence, he told me the police would get me if I picked it up by -my fingers, and take fingerprints, and I got scared and ran to the -house and got a Kleenex tissue and brought back outside and wrapped the -shell in. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it when you wrapped the shell up? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette took it and put it in her apartment up on the -mantle-board. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Then about 5:30 the same day the police called and wanted -us to come down and identify him in the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with the shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I gave it to the police. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him at your house or down at the police -station? - -Mrs. DAVIS. They come and picked us up. - -Mr. BELIN. You gave it to the officer that came to pick you up? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his name was, or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now in your statement, Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 2, -now you state that, "Jeanette found an empty shell that the man had -unloaded and gave it to the police. After the police had left I found a -empty shell in our yard." Is this the same shell you gave to Detective -Dhority? Does the name Detective Dhority sound familiar to you now, or -don't you remember? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I never did hear the detective called. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't hear the detective's name called. - -Mr. BELIN. You say, "The man that was unloading the gun was the same -man that I saw tonight as No. 2 man in a lineup." Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, on this statement, Virginia Davis -Deposition Exhibit 2, it states that "We heard a shot and then another -shot and ran to side door at Patton Street." You say that should have -been the front door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That was supposed to be the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. You say, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was -unloading his gun. We walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'he's -dead, he's, he's shot'." "This woman told Jeanette to call the police -and she did." Now according to this statement, you saw the man cutting -across your yard before you called the police? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now this statement is wrong, is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. It is your testimony now, as I understand it, that you went -back in the house and you called the police, and then you went back -outside the house and saw the boy cutting across the yard? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. That is your statement now? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I hand you what is Deposition Exhibit 3, and ask you to -state if your signature appears on Deposition Exhibit 3? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. This appears to be an affidavit dated December 1, 1963, and -I would like you to read the statement if you would. - -Mrs. DAVIS. (Reads statement.) - -Mr. BELIN. You have now had an opportunity to read over Virginia Davis -Deposition Exhibit 3, is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate? - -Mrs. DAVIS. As I recall, this is all right on that statement. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I recall that is all right on that statement. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate, to -the best of your knowledge? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that you and your -sister-in-law were lying on the bed with the two children when you -heard a loud bang, and immediately following the first report there was -another loud bang and you jumped up and ran to the front door? Is that -correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When we got to the door and went out on the -porch, I saw a man who I later that day identified at the Dallas Police -Department." Is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, according to this statement, you saw the man when you -first got to the door and went out on the porch? Now, did you see him -then, or did you see him---- - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him cut across after he had shot the policeman. We -saw him cut across our yard, and that is the last we saw of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, now, you actually didn't see him shoot the policeman, -did you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw----just saw the man with the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I just saw the man with the gun cutting across the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. After you heard some shots? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After I heard the two shots. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, about how soon after you heard the two shots did you -get to the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we didn't even put on our shoes. We just run to the -front door. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it a matter of seconds or a matter of minutes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. A matter of seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got there, you opened the door, and what did you -see? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy or man cut across the yard. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, and he had a revolver in his hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. In his right hand or left hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. In his right. - -Mr. BELIN. This statement goes on to say that "The man had a revolver -in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right -hand." Is that right or wrong? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Wrong. - -Mr. BELIN. It was the other way around? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way around. - -Mr. BELIN. You got to the door and you opened the door, and what did -you see now? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across our yard unloading the shells -out of his gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham, this woman, was standing across the street -hollering to us to call the police. So we went back in there and called -the police. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, this statement says, goes on to say, "This -man was coming across the yard and was almost to the walk which leads -directly to the porch and is in a direct line with the front door." - -Is that where the man was when you first saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the -shells out of it into his right hand." - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. But you say "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was -shaking the shells out of it into his right hand. As the man passed -directly in front of us, he looked up for a second or so and then -continued on across the yard to Patton Street in a normal walk." Was he -walking or running when you saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he look up at you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. DAVIS. Pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, you just remember kind of seeing him from a side -view? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. "At about this time, a woman directly across the -intersection from our house yelled out, 'He's dead, he's dead, he shot -him.'" - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. "The man glanced up at the woman and kept on walking." Did -you see the man glance up at Mrs. Markham when she was yelling? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we saw when he looked over at Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Mrs. Markham do anything when he looked at her? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; she was over there just hollering and screaming. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see her raise her hand to her face in any way? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. She raised both her hands to her face. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw her do that? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see her do anything else? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You say, "He walked around the corner of the house that -faces Patton Street and out of sight." Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. "Barbara Davis and I returned to the house where she called -the police." Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. According to the statement then, it says that your sister -Barbara Jeanette called the police after you saw the man, is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. "After she called the police, we went back out on the porch -but by then the man we had seen with the gun was no longer in sight." - -Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When the police arrived we searched the area -on the side of the house that faces Patton Street, and Barbara found a -gunshell that had been fired." It that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. "After the police left we again searched the area and I -again found a gunshell that had been fired. I later turned this shell -over to the Dallas Police Department." Is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I have been given an opportunity to make -additions and corrections on this statement, and it is true to the best -of my knowledge and belief." - -Did they give you an opportunity to make additions and corrections on -the statement? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. They did not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they read the statement back to you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. They may have but you don't remember. - -Mrs. DAVIS. May have but I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you and I never talked about this matter -until the court reporter started taking your testimony, have we? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I never met you before, is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with any person in connection with the -President's Commission before we started taking your testimony here? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to be certain that we get this time sequence correct -as to when you saw the man with the gun and when the police were -called, so I am just going to ask you to sit for about 30 seconds and -just think as to just what did happen, and then just tell the court -reporter in your own words just what did happen there. - -(Three minutes of silence.) - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you may not be able to remember just what -exactly the time sequence was. You have been sitting here about 3 -minutes, and if you don't remember what the time sequence was, why I -would like to have you so state. But if you do remember--or do you want -more time to think about it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the best I can remember, it was before that we saw -the boy cut across the yard that we called the police, the best that I -can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, it is your testimony, as I understand it -now, that you heard the shot, and then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the second shot and we ran to the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across the yard, and we had seen this -woman was coming home from work, she had on a uniform, that was Mrs. -Markham--we didn't know it was at the time, but she saw all that happen. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cut across our yard. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the door, did you also see Mrs. -Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see both at approximately the same time? I will ask -you whom did you see first, Mrs. Markham, or the boy cutting across the -yard? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The boy. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the boy first? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is who we saw first. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you saw Mrs. Markham second? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the boy say anything? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Markham say anything? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when she got across the other street, 10th, she -hollered, "He's dead, he's dead, he shot him." - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did she say? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we called the police. Notified them. - -Mr. BELIN. So you called the police after you saw the boy? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After we saw the boy. - -Mr. BELIN. And Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes. Is that your testimony, to -the best of your recollection? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is my testimony. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to ask you again, did you call the police before or -after you saw the boy? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was after. - -Mr. BELIN. It was after? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; after, the best that I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. The best you can remember, you called the police before or -after you saw the boy? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Before or after? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After. - -Mr. BELIN. After you saw the boy, you went back in the house and called -the police? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven't -talked about that might be helpful in this investigation? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any ambulance come up to where Officer Tippit -was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I saw the ambulance. - -Mr. BELIN. You got there before the ambulance, did you not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we got there before. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the ambulance get there first or the police get there -first? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The ambulance got there first. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone making any calls over Tippit's radio? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to Tippit's car, did you take a look at that -police car? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't touch it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you look at it? Did you notice whether its windows were -rolled up or rolled down? - -Mrs. DAVIS. The one on his side was rolled down. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the passenger side of the front seat, -did you notice that? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Rolled up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that rolled up? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now the front window has kind of a little window in it. -Do you know that little tiny part of the front window that opens and -closes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether that one on the front seat by the -right side of the front seat was open or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It was not open? Or you don't---- - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone make any statements that they had seen -anything other than Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see a taxicab parked anywhere in the vicinity? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no. - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I think I have told it all. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, Mrs. Davis, we want to thank you very much for -taking the time and the effort to come here. I know that this whole -episode has taken time on your part, and we certainly appreciate your -cooperation with the President's Commission. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. - -Page 4: "lactated renger solution" should be "lactated Ringer's -solution". - -Page 6: "larynzo scope" should be "laryngoscope". - -Page 248: "1:30 a.m." probably is a misprint. - -Page 254: "Van Alstyne" is also printed as "Van Alystyne"; the first -one is correct. - -Page 286: "an attempt to get and was" may have omitted a word after -"get". - -Page 321: "assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43" may have omitted a word -after "sometime". - -Page 321: "suppose to" may be a misprint for "supposed to". - -Page 322: "out of this man" probably should be "out on this man". - -Page 323: "window of Texas School Book" probably missing "the" after -"of". - -Page 334: "sometimes around" probably should be "sometime". - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings -Vol. VI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V6 *** - -***** This file should be named 44006.txt or 44006.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44006/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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