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diff --git a/44006-0.txt b/44006-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..66f8680 --- /dev/null +++ b/44006-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,47619 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44006 *** + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ VI + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI: +Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark, +Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins, +Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin, +Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt, +Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President +Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis +Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended +Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge, +Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C. +Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher; +Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson, +who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack +Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C. +Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell, +Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis +Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G. +Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger +D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers, +Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer, +D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who +were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A. +Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens, +Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty, +Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns, +employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William +W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning +Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides, +and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit +crime scene. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + + Preface v + Testimony of-- + Charles J. Carrico 1 + Malcolm Oliver Perry 7 + William Kemp Clark 18 + Robert Nelson McClelland 30 + Charles Rufus Baxter 39 + Marion Thomas Jenkins 45 + Ronald Coy Jones 51 + Don Teel Curtis 57 + Fouad A. Bashour 61 + Gene Coleman Akin 63 + Paul Conrad Peters 68 + Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72 + Jackie Hansen Hunt 76 + Kenneth Everett Salyer 80 + Martin G. White 82 + Robert Shaw 83 + Charles Francis Gregory 95 + George T. Shires 104 + Richard Brooks Dulany 113 + Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115 + Jane Carolyn Wester 120 + Henrietta M. Ross 123 + R. J. Jimison 125 + Darrell C. Tomlimson 128 + Diana Hamilton Bowron 134 + Margaret M. Henchliffe 139 + Doris Mae Nelson 143 + Charles Jack Price 148 + Malcolm O. Couch 153 + Tom C. Dillard 162 + James Robert Underwood 167 + James N. Crawford 171 + Mary Ann Mitchell 175 + Barbara Rowland 177 + Ronald B. Fischer 191 + Robert Edwin Edwards 200 + Jean Lollis Hill 205 + Austin L. Miller 223 + Frank E. Reilly 227 + Earle V. Brown 231 + Royce G. Skelton 236 + S. M. Holland 239 + J. W. Foster 248 + J. C. White 253 + Joe E. Murphy 256 + Roger D. Craig 260 + George W. Rackley, Sr 273 + James Elbert Romack 277 + Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284 + B. J. Martin 289 + Bobby W. Hargis 293 + Clyde A. Haygood 296 + E. D. Brewer 302 + D. V. Harkness 308 + J. Herbert Sawyer 315 + Gerald Dalton Henslee 325 + William H. Shelley 327 + Nat A. Pinkston 334 + Billy Nolan Lovelady 336 + Frankie Kaiser 341 + Charles Douglas Givens 345 + Troy Eugene West 356 + Danny G. Arce 363 + Joe R. Molina 368 + Jack Edwin Dougherty 373 + Eddie Piper 382 + Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386 + Geneva L. Hine 393 + Doris Burns 397 + Mary E. Bledsoe 400 + William W. Whaley 428 + Earlene Roberts 431 + Domingo Benavides 444 + Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454 + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Bowron Exhibit No.: Page + 2 138 + 3 138 + 4 138 + Brewer Exhibit A 304 + Brown Exhibit A 236 + Davis Exhibit No.: + 1 457 + 2 463 + 3 465 + Dillard Exhibit: + A 166 + B 166 + C 166 + D 166 + Dougherty Exhibit: + A 382 + B 382 + C 382 + Edwards Exhibit A 205 + Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198 + Foster Exhibit: + A 249 + B 253 + Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73 + Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100 + Hill Exhibit No. 5 223 + Holland Exhibit: + A 242 + B 242 + C 243 + D 245 + Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50 + Jones Exhibit No. 1 55 + Kaiser Exhibit: + A 344 + B 344 + C 344 + Miller Exhibit A 227 + Molina Exhibit A 368 + Murphy Exhibit A 260 + Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147 + Piper Exhibit A 386 + Price Exhibit No. + 2 148 + 3 149 + 4 149 + 5 150 + 6 150 + 7 150 + 8 150 + 9 150 + 10 151 + 11 151 + 12 151 + 13 151 + 14 151 + 15 151 + 16 151 + 17 151 + 18 151 + 19 151 + 20 151 + 21 151 + 22 151 + 23 151 + 24 151 + 25 151 + 26 152 + 27 152 + 28 152 + 29 152 + 30 152 + 31 152 + 32 152 + 33 152 + 34 152 + 35 152 + Reilly Exhibit A 231 + Sawyer Exhibit: + A 318 + B 322 + Skelton Exhibit A 239 + Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134 + Whaley Exhibit A 430 + White Exhibit A 254 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO + +The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is +present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that +his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of +the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination +of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases +of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland +Memorial Hospital. + +Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which +he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary +statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise +your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. CARRICO. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Dr. CARRICO. Physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice +medicine? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; +received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State +College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961, +and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to +1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by +my residency here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor? + +Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will +qualify me for my boards in general surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at +Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery +service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for +evaluation for admission to the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock +noon? + +Dr. CARRICO. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the +clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these +people and evaluate them for admission and treatment. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the +way to the hospital at approximately 12:30? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. In which President Kennedy was involved? + +Dr. CARRICO At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these +patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and +was on his way to the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when +you received that call? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was probably shortly after 12:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that call was received did the +President's party actually arrive at Parkland? + +Dr. CARRICO. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's +party at Parkland, please. + +Dr. CARRICO. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in +response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the +intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and +was taken to one of the trauma rooms. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what identification was given to the trauma room to +which Governor Connally was taken? + +Dr. CARRICO. Trauma room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came +into the emergency area? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the +nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don +Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern, +was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that +time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and +the rest of the staff. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President +Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, no, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of +President Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. I believe he was in there and did the--he helped Dr. +Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Dulany do? + +Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as +I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the +President, care for the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his +arrival at Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. CARRICO. I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as +best you can recollect it? + +Dr. CARRICO. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the +room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition +to Miss Bowron? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, I don't recall any of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon +his arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, +spasmodic, described as agonal. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for +just a moment there, Doctor? + +Dr. CARRICO. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal +coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and +usually reflect a terminal patient. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe your observations of the +President? + +Dr. CARRICO. His--the President's color--I don't believe I said--he +was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous +movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt +and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third +of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt +the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, +and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and +scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little +more closely. There seemed to be a 4-5 cm. area of avulsion of the +scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar +tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated +and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the +inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed +endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through +the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx +and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury. +The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated, +and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate +respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood +pressure was obtained. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the +anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be +any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was probably a 4-7 mm. wound, almost in the midline, +maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid +cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged +edges or stellate lacerations. + +Mr. SPECTER. You said you felt the President's back? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of +the back involved at that time? + +Dr. CARRICO. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to +wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still +on his arms--I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little +above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no +large violation of the pleural cavity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not take the time to turn him over? + +Dr. CARRICO. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more +thorough inspection would have involved several minutes--well, +several--considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A +thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, +and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You +have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening +and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of +the injuries. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Before--well, in trying to treat an acutely +injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation +and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was +accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed +cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his +back. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after +he had expired? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his +back? + +Dr. CARRICO. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it. + +Mr. SPECTER. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in +order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that +description, please? + +Dr. CARRICO. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been +inserted. After this, the President--his respirations were assisted +by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to +evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially +on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place +and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around +the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a +tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room +to insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the +resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using +polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and +uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300 +mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion +of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac +monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical +cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible +electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed +cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in +maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly +deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death? + +Dr. CARRICO. A head injury. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the treatment which was given +to the President as best you recollect it? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all--I'm sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the +President's clothing? + +Dr. CARRICO. We did not do that. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico? + +Dr. CARRICO. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed +by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was +devoted to trying to resuscitate the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the examination of the President's back which you +described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back? + +Dr. CARRICO. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back. +I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the +head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect +to whether he had any back wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect +a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is +to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest +posteriorly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain +whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with +respect to the presence of a back brace, if any? + +Dr. CARRICO. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we +noted he was wearing a standard back support. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that back support, please? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, +with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front. + +Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it? + +Dr. CARRICO. How wide? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below--you see--as I +recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips +that you observed? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his +body when his pants were removed? + +Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President +Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr. +McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones, +Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there--initially, at least, I +don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in +there, I just can't specifically remember--there were 10 or 15 people +in the room before it was over. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of +the punctate wound in the President's throat? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; I really don't--just on the basis of what I know. We +didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the +bullets. + +Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you. + +Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the +bullets. + +Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track +of the bullets? + +Dr. CARRICO. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to +do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to +establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct +these. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended +President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after--later +in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were +not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this +was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another +entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no +other entrance wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an +entry or exit wound, in your opinion? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of +the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that +President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the +upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from +the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, +and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the +missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the +fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side +of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. +Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would +the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent +with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of +approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with +the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that +wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with +the missile taking the path I have just described to you? + +Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce +that result? + +Dr. CARRICO. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a +direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would +cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing +through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great +deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing +a small, round, even wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds? + +Dr. CARRICO. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen +a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber +weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer +range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, +especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass +through to which you have just referred? + +Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the +muscles of the leg superficially. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have +you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor? + +Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the +nature of the head wound which you observed on the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located +in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to +7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium +and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded +macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the +fragments of the skull attached to the dura. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the +one you have just described? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the +large gaping hole which you described? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how +many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any +representative of the Federal Government? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after +the President's death. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview? + +Dr. CARRICO. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical +school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a +statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document +heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page +summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22, +1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic +copy of a report which you submitted? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct? + +Dr. CARRICO. They are. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the +trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in +more specific detail? + +Dr. CARRICO. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was +inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the +lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and +hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a +ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This +was the extent of what I saw. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any +indication as to direction of the bullet? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give +any indication of the direction of the bullet? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you +any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true? + +Dr. CARRICO. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some +others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds +were from, the direction, and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries? + +Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't +remember specifically. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal +Government prior to today? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with +something else? + +Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment--Civil Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. But the only time you talked to anyone about your +treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that +treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another +Secret Service Agent--I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had +any other information and I said "no". + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you +were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the +purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions +which I would ask you? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you gave me at that time the +same as that to which you have testified here on the record? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your +treatment and observations of President Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present +time? + +Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body. + +Dr. CARRICO. Not by us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort +concerning your treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to +my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the +treatment. + +Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern? + +Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why +it happened--maybe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences? + +Dr. CARRICO. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of +assistance in any way to the President's Commission? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter +requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission, +and do you acknowledge receipt of that? + +Dr. CARRICO. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at +that time? + +Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can. + +Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C. + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico. + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY + +The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present +in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his +deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now +inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical +attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which +Dr. Perry participated. + +With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, +Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. PERRY. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you? + +Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of +Texas? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school? + +Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine. + +Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano +High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the +University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of +Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the +University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with +a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital +in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland +Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then +returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization +in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern +Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of +surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, +both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a +consultant and attending surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after +noontime on November 22? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having +lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald +Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the +residents. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an +emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is +the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a +paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to +see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital +operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to +Parkland Hospital for care. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those +factors? + +Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency +room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to +render what assistance we could. + +At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was +already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, +the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to +assist respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, +at that time? + +Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were +there--Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several +other people in the room. There were several nurses there--I don't know +at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there +was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both +in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I +assume, part of the legal force. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, +but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico--I had the +impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an +impression gathered after the fact. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at +the time you first saw him? + +Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in +the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been +removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I +believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen +apparatus to assist in respiration. + +I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area +in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue +on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was +unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in +the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a +punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was +rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of +the wound exactly. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you +can recollect? + +Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they +were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I +determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in +size or so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that +wound? + +Dr. PERRY. I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the +condition of the President? + +Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not +detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was +apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the +endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this +was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it +was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy +tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect +about your observations of the President before you started to work on +him? + +Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any +other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over? + +Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent +procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a +condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the +other procedures are to be of no avail. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever +turn him over? + +Dr. PERRY. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the +initial action on him? + +Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were +breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, +since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or +pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined +the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the +electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative +measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned. + +I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the +room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left +my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my +coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment +of President Kennedy? + +Dr. PERRY. It did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in +the Emergency Room? + +Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when +I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look +at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it +again until after I had left the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed +from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived +at the emergency room? + +Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really +don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no +occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to +consult it further. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the +emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President? + +Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed +my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes +in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, +I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist +in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room +probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to +be dead? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related +to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once +again, I did not verify the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to +revive the President? + +Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during +this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the +tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, +unless you want it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were +followed in the efforts to save the President's life? + +Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the +tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was +present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in +the underlying trachea. + +I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it +down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying +the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral +aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea +was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the +strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. +At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a +catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary +instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure. + +The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed +tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free +air and blood in the superior right mediastinum. + +Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the +presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative +of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a +right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who +did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters +inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage. + +Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this +time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. +Jones and Dr. Carrico. + +Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to +support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that +he suffered from adrenal insufficiency. + +Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under +the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the +anesthesia machine at the head of the table. + +Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived +and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the +oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures +performed on the President? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any doctors who participated other than those +whom you have already identified in the course of your description? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr. +Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was +another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an +emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for +Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of +surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them +to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. +My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was +when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting +me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr. +Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12 +doctors all told by then. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Peters--I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters, +assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor +of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of +medicine. + +I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke, +his assistant professor of anesthesiology--that's the only people that +I saw directly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don +Curtis? + +Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible--I don't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there? + +Dr. PERRY. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in +the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was +just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door +when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but +I understand he was not, that actually he was going--just going in the +room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought +Dr. Dulany was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising +in the interior portion of the President's neck? + +Dr. PERRY. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion +of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for +bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by +definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was +so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to +ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed +myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no +further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea +was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to +reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of +the President's neck? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or +how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the +trajectory. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head, +specifically? + +Dr. PERRY. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you, +which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, +but I did not do a minute examination of his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area? + +Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over +the President at any time during the course of your treatment or +examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then +asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did +in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did +you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than +it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further +that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a +minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a +little bit out of my domain. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's +clothing to ascertain direction of the missile? + +Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know +about--I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an +attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but +the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency +room, I assume. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the description of that brace? + +Dr. PERRY. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the +lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of +an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were +taken down? + +Dr. PERRY. There was evidence of an Ace bandage--I saw it sticking out +from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was +on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his +right leg--his right thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as +well? + +Dr. PERRY. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for +that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or +lower extremities. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in +any other way, of the President's back? + +Dr. PERRY. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in a press conference or press +conferences following the death of the President? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first of such press conferences? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been +within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that press conference by way of +identifying, if you can, the members of the news media? + +Dr. PERRY. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms +1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people. +I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple +of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights, +and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr. +Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me +as being with the White House Press. I don't know--there were numerous +people of the press. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived +a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked +him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He +apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter +came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he +said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses +did you give at that press conference? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions +I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to +be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to +speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and +the exact cause of death. + +The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was +that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not +categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it +was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the President +further--I could not comment on any other injuries. + +As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive +brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying +cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to +what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such +detail--essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at +that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of +blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure +apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with +the cardiotachioscope. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with +respect to the number of bullets? + +Dr. PERRY. I was asked by several of the people of the press, +initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. +Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it +was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I +replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one +bullet? + +Dr. PERRY. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and +I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and +strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the +head." + +Mr. SPECTER. And where would that point of entry have been? + +Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the +neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have +reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion +was? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable--this was possible, but +again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether +there was one or two bullets. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been +one bullet or two bullets or either, or what? + +Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press +conference that you can recollect as being important at this time? + +Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I +mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed +and very quiet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur? + +Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred +in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't +know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. +There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the +administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in +relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. +I don't know how many there were. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of +the hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily--I +wouldn't say--set up by the administration. They were done here at the +hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with +you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar +as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and +which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had +done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the +medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, +say, at home. + +I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in +order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and +approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and +requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and +the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given +to the previous press conference at the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted? + +Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you +say anything other than that which you have already related you said +during the course of the first press conference? + +Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't +think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording +certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit +more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon +my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our +statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have +made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and +people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I +did are essentially the same in all of these. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore +identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets +which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside +the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time--1630 +hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of +the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you +gave to the President on the day of the assassination? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet? + +Dr. PERRY. That is my signature. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct? + +Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted +at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you? + +Dr. PERRY. They have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with +your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of +the President's wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I +did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat +confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell +whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the +findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings +which I noted at the time that I saw the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to +the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above +the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and +being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 +cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which +parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and +assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at +that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance +of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 +feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the +bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, +without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing +the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the +President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the +wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your +findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat +be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you? + +Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the +situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with +your observations and findings? + +Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not +examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, +unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little +injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it +had left the tissues. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's +throat then be consistent with such an exit wound? + +Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination +as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an +exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound +could be produced by such a missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time +of the press conferences that you described? + +Dr. PERRY. They were not. + +Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I +believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available +initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause +of the wound, did you not? + +Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were +directed toward me at the various conferences. + +Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today +that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to +what might have happened? + +Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the +true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to--in such a manner +as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a +position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And +my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but +similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily." + +Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you +observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive +opinion? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, +as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the +preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the +case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that +I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what +you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, +which I have asked you to assume? + +Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either +by my own knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's +neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 +and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather +large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible +alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the +cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound +is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably +by any number of objects. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck +would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I +described to you? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a +different set of factors? + +Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I +do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of +a large expanded bullet--voluntarily I would add that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description +of a large expanded bullet? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it would not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a +6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the +right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the +President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion +as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, +the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and +the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, +taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present +sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or +trajectory? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the +wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could +certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the +skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to +tell. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it +came from the front or back of the President? + +Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of +the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive +wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly +indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance +and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then? + +Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with +Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls +indicating first the time when they occurred. + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by +about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think +I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not +real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning? + +Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking +with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show. + +Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that? + +Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday? + +Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed +your view from Friday to Saturday? + +Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time--Friday +afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about +it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I +thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, +for some reason. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you received those calls? + +Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything? + +Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing +a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, +that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which +was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury +underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision +made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral +injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation. + +He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that +he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in +confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired +about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part +as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to +Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them as having placed it in +the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the +right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds +in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I +knowledge of any wounds of the back. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article +which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of +surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical +services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the +President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such +article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter +about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which +apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York +Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room +No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the +President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview +of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the +rest of it was obtained from various people here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate? + +Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content +was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification +of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to +conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have +knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since +they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the +Federal Government about this matter prior to today? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what +occasions? As best you can recollect it. + +Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did +not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these +things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little +better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very +difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several +people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as +being affiliated with the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service +personnel? + +Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact +dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even +remember their names now. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman? + +Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I +indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present +time it escapes me. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence? + +Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions +and my care of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which +you have given the Federal investigators? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in +wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined +it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, +has been essentially consistent. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the +Federal Government besides the Secret Service men? + +Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified +themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not +recall their names either. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about? + +Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might +speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I +replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my +own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which +you gave to the FBI? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being +essentially the same thing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had +with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. PERRY. I think I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of +this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the +record, before this deposition started? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you +provided on the record here today? + +Dr. PERRY. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful in any way to the President's Commission? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition +today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in +Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the +record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please. + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more +question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this +deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, +which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the +trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly +considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile +accidents, gunshot wounds of various types. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in +addition to that obtained here at Parkland? + +Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was +in the service. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen +while you have been at Parkland? + +Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics? + +Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur +hand loader. + +Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what? + +Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. + +Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK + +The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on +March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right +hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in +this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. CLARK. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated. + +Dr. CLARK. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts +related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been +asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical +treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital +and all facts incident thereto. + +Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission +enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and +a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and +a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission? + +Dr. CLARK. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, +even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the +letter and this morning? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational +background, please? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, +1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at +Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and +was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in +the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at +Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to +1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern +Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery. + +Would you like the professional qualifications? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary +form, if you will, please. + +Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological +Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a +member of the Harvey Cushing Society. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way? + +Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the +world. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the +Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas? + +Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery +and carry the responsibility of administering this department or +this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in +neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have +the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland +Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical +school. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that +the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that +notification? + +Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of +receiving that notification? + +Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland +Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when +this word reached me by phone from the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the +emergency room? + +Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, +so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, +attending to the President? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to +say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving +either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, +Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on +your arrival there? + +Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. +Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being +inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations +through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were +administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making +a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the +endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert +the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly. + +My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to +light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation. + +I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was +a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and +cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable +blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of +some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being +present. + +As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse +and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked +that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was +difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that +he felt a femoral pulse. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse? + +Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and +at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial +pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was +taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a +cardiac monitor for a better word---- + +Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word. + +Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad +Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the +President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the +external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be +felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed? + +Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what +way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock? + +Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely +difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was +monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death? + +Dr. CLARK. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death +certificate? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that? + +Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. +George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed +the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, +and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of +the death of the President? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you? + +Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the +President's body? + +Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at +Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on +the day of the assassination? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur? + +Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held? + +Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the +press at the conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual +note pads and pencils, and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press +conference and photographed? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. No one else? + +Dr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that +press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much +the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was +an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an +exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time? + +Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by +"tangential"? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as +being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail +the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type +of a striking? + +Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ +when struck by a bullet or other missile---- + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition +for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be +here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 +o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the +deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential +and other types of striking. + +Go ahead, Doctor. + +Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function +of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this +organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through +rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage +results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated +by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must +then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed +more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow. + +Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of +the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. +Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it +would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual +direct line it was proceeding. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you +define a tangential wound at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at +2:30 on November 22? + +Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, +that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood +loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had +sustained or from what angle they could have come. + +I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a +massive one and was insurvivable. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of +that press conference, when the cameras were operating? + +Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small +wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the +tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was +deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. +He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He +was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit +wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance +wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in +response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur? + +Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time? + +Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a +minute, which television networks were involved on that? + +Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had +never heard of. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major +networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC? + +Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room +two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and +television stations were also present. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had +started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what +time of day that was? + +Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in +that conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our +local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and +as full as the first one. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, +assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. +This is his office. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the +television cameras were grinding? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press +conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the +President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's +condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he +described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a +point of entry or exit? + +Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add +something to what I said in the first press conference? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, +please feel free to add that. + +Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at +the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a +wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said +something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have +been possible in that press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with +gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, +and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had +to go to get from there to the top of his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking +specific parts of the body? + +Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile +would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the +President was hanging upside down. + +Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that +second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about +that subject? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda +Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the +autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by +the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to +that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested +that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts +to you? + +Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I +could be wrong on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur? + +Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. It was CBS. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. +Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if +it differed in any way from what you said before? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, +describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the +President, how he was called and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an +entrance wound or an exit wound or what? + +Dr. CLARK. I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He +described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He +described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the +time he was anesthetized in the operating room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what +was done in an attempt to save him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding +Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was +anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw +it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on +President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President +Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of +entry or exit? + +Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that +press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President +Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found +an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he +described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, +and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision +to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. +Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press +conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the +assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so +stated in the conference. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was that? + +Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference? + +Dr. CLARK. With BBC. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that? + +Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference +with you? + +Dr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded? + +Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous +conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what +transpired after I arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a +hole on the left side of the President's head? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences? + +Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated +that I personally saw no such wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall? + +Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought +up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was +some discussion of such a wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound? + +Dr. CLARK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the +wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the +left side? + +Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a +comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head? + +Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who +attended the press conference with NBC. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time? + +Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the +President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other +hole or wound on the President's head? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a +bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior +scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the +external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm. + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in +the blood and hair. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on +the back side of the President? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the +emergency room? + +Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other +doctors who were in attendance? + +Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, +because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate +signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's +body out of Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley? + +Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some +other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral +wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 +cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital +proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present +without your observing it? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and +scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time +available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present. + +Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the +autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); +Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. +Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion +that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. +and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital +protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's +head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward +with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open +car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied +to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet +would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the +center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening +from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought +to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent +with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I +have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have +personally observed? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you +comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, +had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described +and the total wound which he had? + +Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. +Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably +have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The +loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal +lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a +visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with +his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, +but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have +had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. +This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information +on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act. + +How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the +ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not +know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to +move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most +important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as +a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired +his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of +the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned +with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue +does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There +would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to +give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of +the United States. + +Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with +people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon +them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on +your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to +the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit +No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport +to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and +correct? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to +bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if +that, in fact, is your signature? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand +concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings +of any sort concerning this matter? + +Dr. CLARK. No; I have not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with +any Federal representative prior to today? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to? + +Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, +in Mr. Jack Price's office. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point? + +Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This +agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles +from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew +of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I +assured him I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have +asked and he said that was all he wished to know. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the +Federal Government at any time before today? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service +approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on +two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the +written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not. + +I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I +prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified +here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of +the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I +had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did +not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have +written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have +had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative +of the State government prior to today? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, +did you and I have a discussion about this matter? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this +Commission is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record +was open and we started taking your deposition? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter +transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and +prior to the start of the more formal session here? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which +you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. +Clark? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, +Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark. + +Dr. CLARK. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED + +The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March +25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to +have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition +which was taken on March 21. + +Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the +first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions +based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", +which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday. + +Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. CLARK. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what +purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of +February 20, 1964? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt. + +"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp +Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet +hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently +referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not +come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the +President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet +which hit 'the right side of his head'". + +Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a +New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect +to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was. + +Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a +wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of +his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was +an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when +the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement +regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that +there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw +the President. + +A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial +quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the +bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the +placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It +was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the +trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that +a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the +trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck +which so indicated? + +Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if +there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have +been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, +the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of +air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will +produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, +there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of +the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without +opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed +that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile +into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of +bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which +you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the +deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no +means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the +chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile +in the chest? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have +been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on +the neck? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have +been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to +take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in +the chest at some point? + +Dr. CLARK. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had +happened. + +Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," +"This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would +that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. +Clark? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask +you a few additional questions. + +Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have +taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been +transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what +I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you +before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping. + +Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the +emergency room? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back? + +Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in +the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward +saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. +After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the +conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would +be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory +external examination here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back? + +Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any +bleeding wound noted? + +Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer +that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there +had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally? + +Dr. CLARK. That's correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first +doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine +whether there was any major violation of that area. + +Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was +any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on +the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the +scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip +of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound? + +Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question? + +Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling +approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter, +cause a bloody type of a wound? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in +the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of +the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred +which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised +here in "L' Express". + +"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the +President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?" + +Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that +question, as the news media has posed it? + +Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time +the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. +When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not +done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that +would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his +assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would +be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any +cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death +certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance +with what you believed to be good medical practice? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that +the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross +negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it +here. + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where +the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be +filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to +be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death +certificate. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think +might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's +Commission? + +Dr. CLARK. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the +questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it +went on the record? + +Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal +Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and +this Wednesday morning? + +Dr. CLARK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark. + +Dr. CLARK. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND + +The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March +21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you raise your right hand? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these +proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to +take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is +being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you +to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which +President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Robert Nelson McClelland. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter from the Commission which +enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a +copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and +a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions +for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time +of the receipt of the letter and today? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, Doctor? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I am a doctor of medicine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, +starting with your graduation from college, please? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Since graduation from college I attended medical +school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex., +and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to +Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University +of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that +period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years +in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became +a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas +in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August +1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and +then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June +1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962. +Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the +staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am +at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland +Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where in your background did you acquire that experience? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely during residency training and subsequent to +that in my capacity here on the staff. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience +here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to +acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital +which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all +of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved +frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number +of that type patient almost daily. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot +wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. At that time I was showing a film on surgical +techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of +Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the +fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency +room after having been shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take following that +notification? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the +Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency +room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been +taken immediately upon arrival. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency +Room 1? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate +or estimate, rather, about 12:40. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your +arrival? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry--would you like the +full names of all these? + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, I would appreciate that. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles +Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they all present at the time you arrived? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. They were not present when I arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you start with the ones who were present? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry, +the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and +Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same +time that I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, +in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr. +Kenneth Salyer. + +Mr. SPECTER. S-a-l-y-e-r? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald +Seldin---- + +Mr. SPECTER. S-e-l-d-i-n? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. S-e-l-d-i-n--I believe that's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition +at that time? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting +him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical +gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head +injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood +appeared cyanotic---- + +Mr. SPECTER. "Cyanotic"--may I interrupt--just what do you mean by that +in lay terms? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black +discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant, +which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased +intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at +the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving +artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was operating that machine? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The machine--there was a changeover, just as I came +in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been +operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing +machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same +time I arrived--this would be one other doctor who came in the +room that I forgot about--Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of +anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, +which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of +respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's +tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with +these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I +came in. + +Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at +the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately +at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in +the neck line. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the +neck wound when you first arrived? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time +converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made +by Dr. Perry, and he told me--although I did not see that--that he had +made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter +inch in diameter wound in the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely +than that? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. He did not at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. He has since that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what description has he given of it since that time? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave +was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small +injury, with clear cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less +than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding +it on the skin. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that +bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin +portion, that is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection +with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation +with respect to the head wound? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. As I took the position at the head of the table that +I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in +such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I +noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely +blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so +that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to +be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of +the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung +open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually +look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or +so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some +of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount +of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels +in the skull which had been blasted open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he alive at the time you first saw him? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the +hectic activity--I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or +what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say +that would perhaps give evidence--this is not vital activity--at most, +is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but +it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, +whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe the activity and part that you +performed in the treatment which followed your arrival? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry +and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked +together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles +out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the +spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the +fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube +into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to +this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here. + +Mr. SPECTER. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior +damage to the President? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that for me, please? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of +contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right +side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site +was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left +side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required +partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough +exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of +soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently +the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the +strap muscles which were applied closely to it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the +time you were performing the procedures you have just described? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had +consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, +the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in +the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too +much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes +were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and +as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know +exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood. + +In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the +tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were +attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, +an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, +and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left +chest--both, as I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who was placing those tubes? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters. +The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall--I perhaps +better not say. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know about how long that took in placing those +chest tubes? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in. +What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and +that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and +slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes +of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the +lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was +probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of +blood and air into one or both pleural cavities. + +Mr. SPECTER. What effect did this medical treatment have on President +Kennedy? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt +that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed +rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling +that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as +establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what +not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and +cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, at what time did he expire? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head +injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues +and massive blood loss. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his +body other than that which you have already described for me? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the +time you saw him until the pronouncement of death? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. On his what? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the stretcher. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he on the stretcher at all times? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table +onto which he could be placed from the stretcher? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No; generally we do not move patients from the +stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then +they are moved onto the operating table. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the +course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you +could have seen the back of his body? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who +attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which +was inflicted on him? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what facts did you have available either to you or to +the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the +nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew +nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. +We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, +essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 +or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial +impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your initial impressions? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the +wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound +and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral +body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce +the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining +of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much +easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, +which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one +then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, +to whom do you mean by "we"? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously +been mentioned here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the +President's head? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not +lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid +moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see, +of course, all the extent of the wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. You saw a large opening which you have already described? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I saw the large opening which I have described. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large +opening on the back of the head? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on the experience that you have described for us +with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you +characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as +being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description +which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were +there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of +entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your +words? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I would say it would be equally consistent with either +type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite +difficult to say--impossible. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report +which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and +has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission +Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page, +"Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all +if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and +next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the +authorities at Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the +best of your knowledge, information and belief? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a +few minutes before I started to take your deposition today? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I discussed this matter with you? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, during the course of our conversations at that time, +did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you +have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And has the information which you have given me on the +record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in +advance? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your +testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to +waive any such signature of the testimony? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I would be willing to waive my signature. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition +today. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED + +The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has +returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation +of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the +intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr. +McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today. + +Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear +that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this +deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French, +of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you +if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to +a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis +Post Dispatch. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. (Examined instrument referred to.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post +Dispatch about this matter? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was his name? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Richard Dudman. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I recall, it was the day after the +assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said +to you and you said to him, please? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt +to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and +as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a +small undamaged--appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck, +the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual +entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be--you +couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of +certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds +of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference +between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in +essence what I told him about the nature of the wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time +the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated, +in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when +I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to +assist with the tracheotomy. + +Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and +were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended +through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as +an entrance wound. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the +entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it +is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by +everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this, +if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in +its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it +had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the +wound--but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described +it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, +knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I +really couldn't say--that's the whole point. This would merely be a +calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just +seeing the wound itself. + +Mr. SPECTER. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the +incision was made? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be +based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post +Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your +only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really +don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether +I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or +whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr. +Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time +exactly what I said to him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional +questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I +asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet +had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not +have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers +you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many, +many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be +absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that +time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the +subject. + +First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the +wounds on President Kennedy which you observed? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate +moment? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before +we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were +just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran +through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered +through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which +we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to +ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base +of the skull and out the rear of the skull. + +This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have +made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were +surrounding the assassination, this was much more readily explainable +to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many +bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your +opinion in that respect? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from +all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. +Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me +change my mind in that regard. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional +facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you +and I'll ask you for an opinion. + +Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right +posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point +14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a +tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of +entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a +muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located +160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on +the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two +strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved +through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and +exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's +neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side +of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet +might make in such a trajectory through the President's body? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that +would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined +them to you? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the +missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding +from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it +had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even +though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost +a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore +would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the +bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole +like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would have happened then to the other portion of the +bullet if it had fragmented? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. It might have been left along, or portions of it along +the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. +Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there +will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment +out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is +extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, assuming this situation--that the bullet did not +fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is, +it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there +were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is +left in. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. I think even then you could make the statement that +this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through +this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before +it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really +great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high +velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such +as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance +hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the +anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density +from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, +it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up +a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet +of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large +area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily make the usual kind +of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity +heavy caliber bullet. + +This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been +implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell +for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was +blown up a good deal. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned +over? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. The President's body was not turned over because the +initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency +are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and +replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried +out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical +examination, which of course would have required that these other +emergency measures not be done immediately. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any examination of the President's back at +all? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of the President's back made to your +knowledge? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Not here--no. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful in any way to the Commission? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that +some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound +may have been misleading, possibly--probably because of our fault in +telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of +being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we +generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be +certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us +about that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government +about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing +you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the +record here? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me in response to +my questions the same that we put on the record here? + +Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland. + +Dr. McCLELLAND. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER + +The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on +March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in +response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition. +For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of +the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President +Kennedy. + +Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in +connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy, +and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. +Baxter, and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's +Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the +truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. BAXTER. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please? + +Dr. BAXTER. Charles Rufus Baxter. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Dr. BAXTER. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. BAXTER. University of Texas--1948 through 1950. Southwestern +Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship, +1956 medicine residency--internal medicine residency. 1956 through +1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through +1964--surgical residency, and 1964 through the present--this is 1964, I +got out of the Army--in 1958, 1958 through 1962--surgery residency, and +1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Doctor? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what boards have you passed? + +Dr. BAXTER. The American Board of Surgeons. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified? + +Dr. BAXTER. 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specific title at the medical school? + +Dr. BAXTER. Assistant professor of surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President +Kennedy at Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding +your being called to render such assistance? + +Dr. BAXTER. I was conducting the student health service in the hours +of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency +room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency +room, having been shot. + +I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it +took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency +room? + +Dr. BAXTER. I think it was 12:40--thereabouts. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that time? + +Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins--several nurses. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the nurses? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes; Mrs. Nelson--and who else? There were two or three +others whose names--Miss Henchliffe was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Miss Bowron? + +Dr. BAXTER. Who? + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Bowron there? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any other nurses there? + +Dr. BAXTER. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that +time? + +Dr. BAXTER. Oh, let's see--I'm not sure whether the others came before +or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour +finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt--yes--she was, I believe she was +the anesthesiologist who came. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there? + +Dr. BAXTER. I'm not sure--I just don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition +of the President? + +Dr. BAXTER. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping +wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its +extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the +pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were +deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so +that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what way was his breathing being assisted? + +Dr. BAXTER. With an anesthesia machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his +condition? + +Dr. BAXTER. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The +anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who is that who said that to you? + +Dr. BAXTER. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart +was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous +catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that +time--well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other +wound was in his neck, that we saw. + +Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that +moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest +tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a +tracheotomy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who performed the tracheotomy? + +Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr. +McClelland, and I believe that's all--there may have been one more +person that held the retractor. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy +at that time? + +Dr. BAXTER. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of +a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the +tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present. +Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube +placement. + +We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him +closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope +hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat +electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at +that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, +while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity +to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, +that is, in a word--literally the right side of his head had been blown +off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present--a +large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well--we felt that +such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not +pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and +last rites before we pronounced him dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time was he pronounced dead? + +Dr. BAXTER. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been +that that was Oswald. + +Mr. SPECTER. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time +of death be fixed with any precision? + +Dr. BAXTER. I don't think so--the time elapsing in all of this +resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one +could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1 +o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made +to save the life of the President? + +Dr. BAXTER. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were +administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous +medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood +loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors arrived during the course of the +treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? + +Dr. BAXTER. I don't recall--I know that there were more doctors present +in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure +is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the +Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can +the nature of the head wound? + +Dr. BAXTER. The only wound that I actually saw--Dr. Clark examined this +above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was +in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there +was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain +oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a +rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at +the top of the head? + +Dr. BAXTER. No; I personally did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can +the wound which you noticed on the President's neck? + +Dr. BAXTER. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half +above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was +in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical +wound. The edges of it--the size of the wound is measured by the hole +plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small +wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised +in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper +tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of +the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea. +The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left. + +Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which +was immediately above the area of damage--where we thought the damaged +area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the +endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into +the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good +control or perfect control of respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck +sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical +certainty as to what was the cause of the hole? + +Dr. BAXTER. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot +wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect +with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did +not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an +exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found +or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. +However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending +upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that +it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound +could well represent either exit or entry wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you +personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these +additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound +of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border +of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, +being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. +below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of +facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet +shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from +a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per +second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the +President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder +without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline +of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be +consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just +given to you? + +Dr. BAXTER. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of +this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through +tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence +which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a +wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, +would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely? + +Dr. BAXTER. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet +would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which +would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend +to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than +this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would +create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be +the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a +rather large wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you? + +Dr. BAXTER. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit +was not of any greater magnitude than it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet +could have passed in the general direction which I have described to +you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of +great density? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have +described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it +would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of +paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave +which you have heretofore described? + +Dr. BAXTER. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not +ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is +damage that is recognized several days later. + +Mr. SPECTER. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor? + +Dr. BAXTER. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding +tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early +course after a missile has passed through. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, +and nature of the hole of exit? + +Dr. BAXTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without +striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble +at all? + +Dr. BAXTER. No, it would not. + +Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with +gunshot wounds? + +Dr. BAXTER. For the past 6 years--we admit and treat, I would estimate, +around 500 gunshot wounds per year--thereabouts. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds? + +Dr. BAXTER. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of +various velocities and that type missile wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him, +Dr. Baxter? + +Dr. BAXTER. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first +saw him until the time he was pronounced dead? + +Dr. BAXTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over? + +Dr. BAXTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would your examination have been conducted in any +different way had this particular victim not been the President of the +United States? + +Dr. BAXTER. I think--yes--in that we would have, particularly, +postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would +certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the +direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under +the circumstances. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances? + +Dr. BAXTER. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of +people in the room by that time--Secret Service Agents, the priests and +so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service +more or less--well, requested that we clear the room and leave them +with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret +Service wished was carried out. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was that? + +Dr. BAXTER. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did, +as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests. + +In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at +that time was such that probably we would not--we didn't feel that we +should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care +of all that we were going to miss. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your +professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was +rendered to the President? + +Dr. BAXTER. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room +was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in +no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment +used in the care of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr. +Baxter? + +Dr. BAXTER. Gunshot wound to the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President +Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the +neck? + +Dr. BAXTER. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck +that would not be well taken care of by simply--by the tracheotomy and +chest tubes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any bullets in the President's body? + +Dr. BAXTER. No, we did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body? + +Mr. BAXTER. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which +has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report +from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a +page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which +you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all, +if that is your signature? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, if this is the report which you submitted? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort +concerning your care of President Kennedy? + +Dr. BAXTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of +your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots? + +Dr. BAXTER. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the +President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On +arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted +respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in +one leg and in the left arm. + +The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first +observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones +were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive +lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated +laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as +noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and +I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace +anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered +by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no +heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a +cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was +obtained. + +Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected, +no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made." + +Mr. SPECTER. And that bears your signature? + +Dr. BAXTER. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery, +Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal +Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today? + +Dr. BAXTER. The only person was a Secret Service Agent +about--approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any +additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the +medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No." + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to +transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss +this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would +ask you? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the answers given on the record here the same as +you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was +started? + +Dr. BAXTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful in any way to the work of the Commission? + +Dr. BAXTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter. + +Dr. BAXTER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS + +The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared +in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to +testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed +by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of +purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right +hand. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's +Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. JENKINS. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. JENKINS. Marion Thomas Jenkins. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please? + +Dr. JENKINS. I'm a physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice +medicine? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins? + +Dr. JENKINS. Anesthesiology. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background for me, +please? + +Dr. JENKINS. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have +a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical +Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of +Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940-41; Assistant Residency in +Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941-42; +active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946; +Resident in Surgery--Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946-47; Resident in +anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947-48; +and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and +Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman +of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern +Medical School--since 1951. Diplomate--other certification, do you want +this? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, what Boards are you certified? + +Dr. JENKINS. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology +and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you certified by the American Board? + +Dr. JENKINS. 1952. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding +your being called into that case? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the +hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires, +being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any +service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call. + +Mr. SPECTER. What does that mean, "Stat"? + +Dr. JENKINS. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has +been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and +one of the surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone, +thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of +Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately +came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from +his face--I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President +has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we +heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway +from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this +was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the +street, but these came on clear to the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the +hospital? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department, +that's on the second floor--one floor above the dining room, where I +was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw, +my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that +the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room +and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including +an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are +used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it +down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in +the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I +guess. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room? + +Dr. JENKINS. Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be +indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the +clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I +didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the +emergency room, if anyone? + +Dr. JENKINS. The hallway was loaded with people. + +Mr. SPECTER. What medical personnel were in attendance? + +Dr. JENKINS. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service +men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it +turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany--Dick Dulany, I guess you +have his name, and several nurses were in the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you identify the nurses? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later +looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names +of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I +first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it +seemed to me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later +observations of them? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the +procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine, would you do that for us, please? + +Dr. JENKINS. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss +Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe--I don't +know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Margaret? + +Dr. JENKINS. Margaret--certainly. Those three--there were probably some +student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you +recollect as being in the room? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only +the--actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the President, +two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have +identified all I remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition when +you arrived in the emergency room? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This +is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much +trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made +up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are +referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles +of respiration. He had this characteristic of respiration. His eyes +were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, +cyanotic--a purplish cyanosis. + +Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal +type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at +this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because +one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the +activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped, +such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, +he can be saved. + +Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud +of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and +under the circumstances--it was harder--he had just completed a 3-month +rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented +good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had +a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound. + +The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube, +the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go +into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from +both lungs, or both chests. + +There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing +apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected +this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen +by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the +scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with +something I am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, I must insist on +that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation +with 100 percent oxygen. + +As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection. +Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish +of the circumstance. + +Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished +personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered +or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative +procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the +resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, +because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in +their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity +for this being done. + +There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the +neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would +have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. +This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea +and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or +a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley +Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe, +started the tracheotomy. + +About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. +Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious +physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest +drainage--chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not +aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed +chest cardiac massage. + +There were other people--one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in +the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department +connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on +the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the +sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them +on my report, which you have here, I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show +you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit +No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital +Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his +possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what +purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963, +and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr. +Price? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes; it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the +neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the +endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr. +Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as +accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the +tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up +the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and +respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I +should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound +of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly +demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an +entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course, +entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound +also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression +it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound--for +the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by +recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the wound in the neck as +specifically as you can at this moment? + +Dr. JENKINS. I believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in +the head? + +Dr. JENKINS. Almost by the time I was--had the time to pay more +attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were +under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the +patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia +apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up +and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the +cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention +to the wound in the head. + +Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time +and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each +compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the +skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of +the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there +was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on +the drapes of the cart on which the President lay. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive +loss of skull which you have described? + +Dr. JENKINS. On the right side? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Dr. JENKINS. No--I don't know whether this is right or not, but I +thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the +hairline and right above the zygomatic process. + +Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. +Jenkins. + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for--I was palpating here for a pulse +to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not +and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and +so I thought there was a wound there also. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was President Kennedy +pronounced dead? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300, +according to my watch, at least, at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? + +Dr. JENKINS. Cerebral injury--brain injury. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course +of this treatment at Parkland? + +Dr. JENKINS. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins? + +Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I +think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were +there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong +word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this +was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he +had a fatal wound, and I think my own personal feeling was that this +was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have +done any further search. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your +knowledge? + +Dr. JENKINS. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he +was being cared for? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes, sir. + +Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; let's go off the record a minute. + +(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. +Jenkins.) + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are back on the record and +Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the +declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to +repeat for the record what you have just said off the record. + +Dr. JENKINS. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as +"chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the +sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there +was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as +brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient +was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and +this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the +electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up. + +However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since +I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued +attempted resuscitative maneuvers. + +When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the +emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and +asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration +job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper +time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not +sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The +time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that +medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be +a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time +they would still have the final rites. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was +declared dead medically? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me +that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal--on +the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back +into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because +they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that +they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put +forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the +priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, +respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My +memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's +the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was +still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your +characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of +facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your +view or opinion. + +Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound +on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of +the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion +process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and +that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon +having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and +approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after +entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile +traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without +violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the +trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which +you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I +have just described? + +Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. +Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that +is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for +this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so +I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard +a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid +probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I +do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of +the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they +have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the +department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular +system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds +of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and +activities during the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in +exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds? + +Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal +Government at any time prior to today? + +Dr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who +showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came +to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the +hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I +had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, +I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your +participation in the treatment of the President? + +Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, +essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have +that. I don't know whether you want it or not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it. + +Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however--can I ask you +something off of the record here? + +Mr. SPECTER. Sure. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off +the record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a +couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will +ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit +No. 36, for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify +this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill. + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted +to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on +your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the +record--I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question +as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in +your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be? + +Dr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this +would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have +not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of +exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course? + +Mr. SPECTER. It did not. + +Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been +fatal. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds +which you observed were caused by one or two bullets? + +Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been +two bullets--two missiles. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that? + +Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as +I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of +exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought +it was a wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in +connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy? + +Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his +pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must +have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his +chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go +that way. I thought it did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other +opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds +been changed in any way? + +Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a +wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the +hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have +been a wound there (indicating). + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of +entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. +This was my only other question about it. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your +opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service +Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal +Government prior to today about this subject? + +Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes, as far as I remember--I have had no formal +interviews. I have been asked--there have been some people calling on +the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources +all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done +this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we +followed. + +Mr. SPECTER. But the only one you can identify as being from the +Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret +Service? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before +the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which +you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on +the record? + +Dr. JENKINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything which you think of to add that +you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the +President's Commission in its inquiry? + +Dr. JENKINS. I believe not, Mr. Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins. + +Dr. JENKINS. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES + +The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March +24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones +has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition +for the President's Commission on the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate +all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment +of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify +concerning your knowledge of that treatment. + +With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your +right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the +President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Dr. JONES. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice +medicine? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the +University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through +1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of +Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in +Los Angeles County General Hospital. + +From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year +general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of +internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery +and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of +Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the +present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at +Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding +your being called into the case? + +Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator +page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time +I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had +been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. + +I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is +the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made +for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of +the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and +notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the +emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the +President had been brought in. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at +the emergency room? + +Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived? + +Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm +not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we +arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time? + +Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name? + +Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now--I know her. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe? + +Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron? + +Dr. JONES. No--just the-- + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson? + +Dr. JONES. Nelson. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you +have already mentioned at the time you arrived? + +Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe +and Miss Bowron. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived? + +Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. +Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived? + +Dr. JONES. I didn't see him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall? + +Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be +upon your arrival? + +Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and +Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal +respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency +measures to try to restore the airway. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean +an effort by the President? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration? + +Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President +was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see +this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and +started work. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration? + +Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, +that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular +type respirations. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be +the President's condition? + +Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact +that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes +were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the +eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or +was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so +that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted +immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not +adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that +he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that +he was getting adequate oxygen. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the +President then? + +Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted +to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with +Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from +the machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the +President's condition at that time? + +Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had? + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds? + +Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small +wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, +and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest +diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of +the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that? + +Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this +time observing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the +wound at that time? Either wound? + +Dr. JONES. Not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of +the head wound? + +Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the +President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging +out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the +brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that +you observed in the throat? + +Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a +quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn +present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood +that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount +of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of +disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to +be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a +result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile +of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a +bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a +very small, smooth wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area? + +Dr. JONES. No; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of +the wound which you have described of the throat? + +Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount +that was around the head--not too much. + +Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in +addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy? + +Dr. JONES. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the +cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to +give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, +and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns +in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in +the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were +started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing +the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in +and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they +made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought +they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on +one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of +the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the +second intercostal space. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor? + +Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was +immediately connected to underwater drainage. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", +Dr. Jones? + +Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in +the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is +forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that +the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give +adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a +chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite +side due to the number of people that were working on the President. +Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as +Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of +us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by +Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President +Kennedy? + +Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood +was started--I believe that the President was also administered some +hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and +at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no +evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by +Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant +or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's +adrenal insufficiency? + +Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President +had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that +he possibly had Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence +that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his +insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of +severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into +a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of +steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed +situation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any +other person on the scene? + +Dr. JONES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the +President had no adrenal insufficiency? + +Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if +the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this +treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already +mentioned? + +Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr. +McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of +just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of +neurosurgery here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors? + +Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily +the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the +President, although there were some other doctors in the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear +your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated +November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as +Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1. + +(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. +1, for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted +concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. JONES. Yes; it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, +"Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well +as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet +entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet +entrance wound, sir? + +Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you +would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a +patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at +a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and +if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an +explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this +appeared to have on superficial examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of +low velocity, as you put it? + +Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think +that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just +enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment +of bullet wounds? + +Dr. JONES. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete +year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in +addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every +other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we +see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, +sometimes as many as four and five a night. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds? + +Dr. JONES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which +was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 mm. bullet +which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck +without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the +neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of +2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 +feet from the weapon? + +Dr. JONES. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the +anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the +body, but not in the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones? + +Dr. JONES. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a +massive amount of soft tissue destruction. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone +or what? + +Dr. JONES. Probably where it has struck bone. + +Mr. SPECTER. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone +becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating +the soft tissue damage? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to +accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, +as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, +or shortly thereafter? + +Dr. JONES. With no history as to the number of times that the President +had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and +seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an +exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation +that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound +would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a +vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the +posterior portion of the head. However, this was--there was some doubt +that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly +change its course by striking, but at the present--at that time, if I +accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way +I accounted for it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would that account take into consideration the +extensive damage done to the top of the President's head? + +Dr. JONES. If this were the course of the missile, it +probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although I would +possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral +column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also +think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one +that was present at the time we saw it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the +vertebral column? + +Dr. JONES. No, we could not see this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or +doctors? + +Dr. JONES. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. With whom? + +Dr. JONES. With Dr. Perry--is the only one that I recall specifically, +and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, +because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, +the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that +possibly he had been shot more than once. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the President's back? + +Dr. JONES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over? + +Dr. JONES. Not while I was in the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was he on when you first saw him? + +Dr. JONES. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and +can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far +as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so +forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was +brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be +dead? + +Dr. JONES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this +time? + +Dr. JONES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your status on your progress with that, +generally? + +Dr. JONES. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this +year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones? + +Dr. JONES. Thirty-one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of +the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. JONES. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least +two occasions. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you on those occasions? + +Dr. JONES. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was +true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room +with the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they ask you anything else other than that? + +Dr. JONES. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces +of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been +administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them +"No." + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes +before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to +you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting +forth the same information which we have put on the record here today? + +Dr. JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful to the Commission in any way? + +Dr. JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. +Jones. + +Dr. JONES. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS + +The testimony of Dr. Don Teel Curtis was taken at 9:25 a.m., on March +24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that present are Dr. Don Curtis and +the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding +being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the +assassination, including the medical treatment performed for President +Kennedy. + +Dr. Don Curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter +requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical +treatment of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of the +general objective of the Commission and the specific objective of this +deposition proceeding, Dr. Curtis, will you rise and raise your right +hand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Presidential +Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. CURTIS. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Don Teel, T-e-e-l (spelling) Curtis. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your occupation or profession? + +Dr. CURTIS. Oral surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. CURTIS. I attended my freshman year at Boulder, Colo., Colorado +University, 2 subsequent years of undergraduate work at Texas +University, 4 years at Baylor Dental College, and I have been interning +here for a year and a half. + +Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from Baylor Dental College? + +Dr. CURTIS. 1962. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time? + +Dr. CURTIS. Twenty-six. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what has your work consisted of here at Parkland +Hospital? + +Dr. CURTIS. I have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now +am a resident this year in oral surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed dentist? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did you obtain that status in the State of Texas? + +Dr. CURTIS. I think in August of 1962. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment +of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding +your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort? + +Dr. CURTIS. I was--do you want me to tell from the time that I got to +the emergency room? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes--how did you happen to get to the emergency room? + +Dr. CURTIS. I was in our out-patient clinic and saw the President's +car, or I saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and +I went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the +emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room +where President Kennedy was. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that? + +Dr. CURTIS. I don't know--it was shortly after he arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long after he arrived? + +Dr. CURTIS. I would say it was within--I would say within a minute +after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to +know that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the trauma room at that time? + +Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Carrico and a nurse, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the nurse? + +Dr. CURTIS. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of +President Kennedy at that time? + +Dr. CURTIS. I observed that he was in a supine position, with his head +extended, and I couldn't see on my arrival--I couldn't see the nature +of the wounds, however, Dr. Carrico was standing at the patient's head. +Dr. Carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and I participated in +applying the Bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for +artificial respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. How does it happen that you would participate to that +effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon? + +Dr. CURTIS. We participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries +of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked +onto a patient. We have a tour through anesthesia. We spend time on +general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway +which makes us, I would say, qualified, for airway management. In our +training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on +intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures +attendant with the management of I.V. fluids. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there always someone from oral surgery available at the +trauma area? + +Dr. CURTIS. One of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room +at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the +emergency room. We see many patients in the emergency room area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who +would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes--maxillofacial injuries. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in addition, you help out in a general way when there +is an emergency situation? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything in President Kennedy's condition +which called for the application of your specific specialty? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; there wasn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as +an emergency case? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed +with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what +you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration. + +Dr. CURTIS. It is very difficult to say whether or not the President +was making a respiratory effort, but I'm not sure that he wasn't making +a respiratory effort. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think that he was making a respiratory effort? + +Dr. CURTIS. He could have been, and that's as far as I can go on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe movements of the chest? + +Dr. CURTIS. I thought I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was his coloring? + +Dr. CURTIS. He was pink--he wasn't cyanotic when I saw him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for +the record at this point? + +Dr. CURTIS. When the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a +blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of +the hemoglobin is reduced. That's not a lay term either, but when the +patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how does that manifest itself in the patient? + +Dr. CURTIS. The patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action was Dr. Carrico taking upon your arrival? + +Dr. CURTIS. He had placed an endotracheal tube in the President's +trachea for artificial respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he doing anything else? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes; he was applying the Bird machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any? + +Dr. CURTIS. He directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the +emergency room, and I think it was Dr. Carrico directed me to start the +I.V. fluids. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do in response to his +direction? + +Dr. CURTIS. I assisted him in fitting the tube from the Bird machine +to the endotracheal tube and I assisted in removing some of the +President's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown +on his leg? + +Dr. CURTIS. A small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is +bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous +catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then +tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with +sutures. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you do anything else to the President following +that operative procedure? + +Dr. CURTIS. Then, the initial cutdown that I started was ineffective +and infiltrated into the tissues. I think possibly I cut the knot +too close of the purse string ligature, so I was getting ready to do +another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other +leg, it wouldn't be necessary. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other action did you take, if any, in the treatment +of the President? + +Dr. CURTIS. That's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you remain in the trauma room No. 1? + +Dr. CURTIS. I did until he was pronounced dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room +while you were there? + +Dr. CURTIS. My attention was focused on what I was doing, so I wasn't +aware--I knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all +I could see. I mean, I knew that a tracheotomy was being performed. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors were present there at that time? + +Dr. CURTIS. I know that Dr. Perry was there and I know Dr. Baxter was +there, and then I recall Dr. Jenkins from the Anesthesia Department, +and Dr. Seldin, Dr. Crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors--I could +think of others probably, but I can't remember now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other nurses who were there? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I can't--I wasn't paying attention to the nurses. + +Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your presence near President Kennedy, +did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body? + +Dr. CURTIS. After I had completed the cutdown, I went around to the +right side of the patient and saw the head wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there? + +Dr. CURTIS. Oh--fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial +contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the President? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. As I said before, I noticed the mass in the +pre-tracheal area. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "as you said before," you mean in our +previous discussions prior to going on the record here? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you state now for the record what you did notice +with respect to the tracheal area? + +Dr. CURTIS. The President's head was extended or hyperextended and I +noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked +like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues. + +Mr. SPECTER. How big was that hematoma? + +Dr. CURTIS. Oh, I think it was 5 cm. in size. + +Mr. SPECTER. What color was it? + +Dr. CURTIS. It had no color--there was just skin overlying it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did it appear to be? + +Dr. CURTIS. Probably a hematoma. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's +throat? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it? + +Dr. CURTIS. I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and +that's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about +an opening on his neck? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report concerning your activity +on the President? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your +work with the President? + +Dr. CURTIS. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal +Government about your participation in treating President Kennedy +before today? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I haven't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that we went on the record here with the +court reporter, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning +the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which I would +ask you on the record? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the +record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter +started taking notes? + +Dr. CURTIS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be +helpful to the Commission in its work? + +Dr. CURTIS. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Curtis, for coming here today. + +Dr. CURTIS. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. FOUAD A. BASHOUR + +The testimony of Dr. Fouad A. Bashour was taken at 1:15 p.m., on March +25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Fouad Bashour has appeared +pursuant to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with the Commission's +inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the +President, including medical treatment received at Parkland Hospital, +and Dr. Bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the +emergency room. + +With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Bashour, would you mind +rising and then raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. BASHOUR. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. BASHOUR. F-o-u-a-d (spelling), Fouad A. Bashour. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Mr. BASHOUR. I am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. I +am associate professor of medicine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice +medicine here? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified at the present time? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; I don't have my board because I am not yet a +citizen. I will be taking my citizenship this year, I hope, and then I +will be able to sit for the board. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of +President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors' +dining room, and we went directly to the President Kennedy room. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Seldin and myself--we left the dining room and went +right straight down to the President's room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Seldin's first name? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Donald. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is his specialty, if any? + +Dr. BASHOUR. He's chairman of the department of medicine and professor +of medicine. He is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in +renal diseases. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine +involve? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Kidney diseases. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin accompany you into the emergency room where +President Kennedy was located? + +Dr. BASHOUR. We went to the room together and then I was left alone +because this is a problem--a heart problem. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin remain in the room with you? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Well, he came and stayed for--he just left the room after +we came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did he stay in the room? + +Dr. BASHOUR. A few seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the room when you arrived? + +Dr. BASHOUR. When I arrived, Dr. Kemp Clark was doing the cardiac +massage on the President, Dr. Jenkins was in charge of controlling +artificial respiration of the President, and the probably there were +some three or four--I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be +at the time you arrived? + +Dr. BASHOUR. The President was lying on the stretcher, the head wound +was massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time +the President had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated, +his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no +pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were +cold. + +Then, we attached the scope--the cardioscope and there was a flip, +this was probably artificial. Upon stopping the cardiac machine, there +was no cardiac activity. That means the heart was standing still. We +continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so +the President was declared dead shortly thereafter. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was he declared dead? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Well, according to my notes, we said here, "Declared dead +about 12:55," or so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general +approximation? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; approximation. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, Dr. +Bashour? + +Dr. BASHOUR. On the scope--some change in the baseline of the scope. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did that indicate some activity in the President's heart? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; not necessarily. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else could have accounted for the flip besides that? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Anything extraneous could have accounted for that. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, you require a number of flips before you inquire if +there is heart activity? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it depends on the configuration of the flip--if the +flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity--it shows cardiac activity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or +not? + +Dr. BASHOUR. It wasn't, as far as I know. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is your field, is it not, you read those flips? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw +was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity? + +Dr. BASHOUR. As a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was +nothing. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who is "he"? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Clark, who was doing the cardiac massage. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else was done to the President, if anything, in +addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived +on the scene? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Really, as far as I know, it was the end of the +scene--nothing was done afterward. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you +have just described? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No; I did not observe any wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the front part of the +President's neck upon your arrival? + +Dr. BASHOUR. The only thing--it was covered with the endotracheal +tube--I did not really pay attention to it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before +the tracheotomy was performed? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No; I came after everything was done to him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I show you a group of papers heretofore marked +as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I call your attention to the +photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you +on November 22, 1963, at 4:45 p.m., is that your report? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that in fact your signature? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein the essence of what +you observed and what you know about this matter? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government +prior to today about your treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. BASHOUR. There was a security officer or something called me on the +phone one day and said did I write any note besides this note on the +chart, and I said "No." I don't know his name even. + +Mr. SPECTER. What note was he referring to? + +Dr. BASHOUR. This note here. + +Mr. SPECTER. He asked you if you wrote what? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Other notes than this. + +Mr. SPECTER. If you had any other notes? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other notes other than the one I have +just shown you? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service agent ask you anything else other +than that? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the +Federal Government on any occasion prior to today? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, did you and I talk for a few minutes about the type +of questions I would be asking you during this deposition? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have given me on the +record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told +me before she arrived? + +Dr. BASHOUR. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, will you give me just an outline of your educational +background, Doctor? + +Dr. BASHOUR. I got my baccalaureate from French Government in +1941--first part. I got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics +and science in 1942, I got my B.A. degree in 1944 from the American +University of Beirut, my M.D. degree in 1949, and my Ph. D. in 1957 +from the University of Minnesota. I came back to this country in 1959 +from the American University of Beirut, as an instructor, and from 1959 +to 1963 I jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate +professor in February 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think will be +helpful in any way to the President's Commission? + +Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Bashour. + +Dr. BASHOUR. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN + +The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in +response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition +taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being +asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if +any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland +Hospital and his treatment here. + +With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and +raise your right hand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. AKIN. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? + +Dr. AKIN. Gene Coleman Akin. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Dr. AKIN. Medicine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice +medicine? + +Dr. AKIN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any specialty? + +Dr. AKIN. Anesthesiology. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you board-certified? + +Dr. AKIN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board-certification? + +Dr. AKIN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. AKIN. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical +school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas, +internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at +Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school? + +Dr. AKIN. 1961. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor? + +Dr. AKIN. Thirty-four. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President +John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. AKIN. Briefly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state how you came to be called into the case? + +Dr. AKIN. I was notified while I was on duty in the operating suite of +the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency +room. President Kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought +to the emergency room, and I immediately went down the back elevator +to the emergency room to see if I could be of assistance, and when I +walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. President Kennedy still +had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the +connector from this to the Bird respirator was removed. The anesthesia +machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and Dr. Jenkins +connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed +there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the +tracheotomy, at which time I connected the breathing tubes from the +anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while Dr. +Jenkins controlled the ventilation with 100-percent oxygen from the +anesthesia machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist Dr. Jenkins then in his work? + +Dr. AKIN. Only insofar as I held the endotracheal connector in place +into the tracheotomy tube. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors in addition to Dr. Jenkins then were present, +if any, at the time of your arrival? + +Dr. AKIN. You mean everybody in the room? I don't know that I can name +all of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Name as many as you can, if you will, please? + +Dr. AKIN. There was Dr. Jenkins, there was myself for a brief period, +there was Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Jackie Hunt--they left shortly after +arriving. I heard later that they had gone across the hall to Governor +Connally's room to assist him; Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, +Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Bob McClelland, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Ron Jones, +was there. I think, shortly after I arrived, and Dr. Fouad Bashour +came in from cardiology; Dr. Don Seldin walked in briefly, I can't +remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs--I can't +remember that. This is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days +later we went through the same business over again and I am liable to +say that there was somebody there that worked on Kennedy that actually +had worked on Oswald, because I was on the Oswald mess too. This is all +that I remember were positively there. I remember their being there, +but there were others that I am not sure of. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition? + +Dr. AKIN. He looked moribund in my medical judgment. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first +saw him? + +Dr. AKIN. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the +cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of +this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across +with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the +right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain +substance extruding. + +Mr. SPECTER. Returning to the wound which you first described, can you +state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw +it? + +Dr. AKIN. I don't think I could--this is about all I noticed. I noticed +this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he +sustained the wound. My attention, because of my standing on the right +side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon +directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern. + +Mr. SPECTER. And as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe +whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the +portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy? + +Dr. AKIN. It was slightly ragged around the edges. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you said that---- + +Dr. AKIN. No powder burns; I didn't notice any powder burns. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without +regards to the tracheotomy which was being started? + +Dr. AKIN. It looked--it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. It +was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you mean when you just made your reference to the +academic aspect with the wound, Dr. Akin? + +Dr. AKIN. Well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that +this might have been an entrance wound. I immediately thought it could +also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile +that made the wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would be the circumstances on which it might be one +or the other? + +Dr. AKIN. Well, if the President had been shot with a low velocity +missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an +entrance wound, is that what you mean? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. AKIN. If, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military +type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an +exit wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an +exit wound with respect to the rifle? + +Dr. AKIN. Well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military +rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or +steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted +when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet +leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but +like I said, I didn't devote much time to conjecture about this. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot +wounds, doctor? + +Dr. AKIN. I can't really give you, say, how many cases a week I see of +this. Most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation +with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot +injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller +caliber--.22 caliber to .38 caliber, and most of them are not injured +in a through and through fashion. In other words, I don't see too many +exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and +don't leave it. They usually stay in it, so consequently I could not be +considered an expert in exit wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into +Parkland Hospital, would you say? + +Dr. AKIN. What I have just described, you mean? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. AKIN. Yes; I think so. Most of the people seem to be shot with +cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you +have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at +Parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen +on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen? + +Dr. AKIN. I think so, except there is one difference--I am not +ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so I am not very often the +first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. When I +see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who +lived to make it to the operating room. We, I'm sure, have a lot of +people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room, +and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and I never +see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that I never +have seen. They might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality +ammunition, and I would not have seen them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of +facts which I will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an +opinion, if you are able to formulate one. Assume that the President +was struck by a 6.5 mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of +approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was +approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the weapon. Assume further that +the bullet entered the President's body in the upper right posterior +thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. +from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of +the right mastoid process. Assume further that the missile traveled +through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating +either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back +and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura +cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited +from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have +described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound +of exit under the factors that I have just outlined to you? + +Dr. AKIN. As far as I know, it is perfectly compatible from what you +have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring +the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of +the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck? + +Mr. SPECTER. The anterior strap muscles of the neck. + +Dr. AKIN. It's a matter of clarification because there are no strap +muscles posterior, by my terminology. Yes, this is perfectly consistent +with what I know about, or what I have been told by military experts, +concerning high velocity missile injuries. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis of your information from the +military experts you just referred to? + +Dr. AKIN. Military rifle demonstrations when I was a senior student +at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. We took a brief two day tour +there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe +below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound +in the back of the head? + +Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's +head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and +skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the President's +clothes? + +Dr. AKIN. I noticed them. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see +what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet? + +Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. The front of the chest was uncovered, the pants +had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only +article of clothing I noticed in particular was his back corset. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the back corset which +you just mentioned? + +Dr. AKIN. It had been loosened and was just lying loose. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was? + +Dr. AKIN. The only portion I saw was the front portion of the corset +and it was about, I'd say, 5 or 6 inches in width, and made out of +some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any Ace bandage strapping the President's +buttocks area? + +Dr. AKIN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that area of his anatomy visible to you? + +Dr. AKIN. Not his buttocks, he was lying supine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge? + +Dr. AKIN. Not while I was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you there altogether, Dr. Akin? + +Dr. AKIN. Oh, probably 15, maybe 20--perhaps 20 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when he was pronounced to be dead? + +Dr. AKIN. Yes--I didn't leave until Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins had +mutually agreed that nothing else could be done. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time was he pronounced dead? + +Dr. AKIN. 1300 hours. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? + +Dr. AKIN. Massive gunshot injury to the brain--primary cause. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have already described some of the treatment which was +performed on the President; could you supplement that by describing +what else was done for the President? + +Dr. AKIN. Other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial +respiration, brief external cardiac massage--I don't know. Anything +else I said would be hearsay, and I understand that he did receive some +cortisone. He received so much Ringer's lactate, but this is not of my +own personal knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on +the President, Dr. Akin? + +Dr. AKIN. Probably two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in +connection with your observations of the President or any opinions you +formed in connection with what you saw? + +Dr. AKIN. You mean as to how he was injured? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, as to how he was injured. + +Dr. AKIN. Well, no; not really because I didn't have any opinions, +necessarily. Any speculation that I might have done about how he was +injured was just that, it was just speculation. I didn't form an +opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and +where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so I didn't +have any opinions. It was my immediate assumption that when I saw the +extent of the head wound, I assumed at that point that he had probably +been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage +that had been done. The same thing happened to his head and would +happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity +missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opinion as to the direction that the +bullet hit his head? + +Dr. AKIN. I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the +exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side +of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I +didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the +Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. AKIN. You mean concerning this matter? + +Mr. SPECTER. Concerning this matter. + +Dr. AKIN. I think I was probably interviewed by a member of the Secret +Service some weeks ago. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him? + +Dr. AKIN. Virtually the same thing, as I recall--I didn't make as long +a statement, he just wanted to know where I was and what I did and I +told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only time you have been interviewed by any +representative of the Federal Government concerning this matter prior +to today? + +Dr. AKIN. Yes; as far as I can remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. And before I started to take your deposition, did you and +I have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and +the questions I would ask you? + +Dr. AKIN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me about the same information, exactly +the same information you have put on the record here this morning? + +Dr. AKIN. To my knowledge; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of +assistance to the President's Commission in their inquiry? + +Dr. AKIN. No; I don't think so. I don't know exactly if there is any +disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people +who have testified, so I don't know. This is all I saw. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. Thank you very much, Dr. Akin. + +Dr. AKIN. That's all right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS + +The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March +24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present, +having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in +connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects +of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President +Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of +events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if +anything, concerning that medical attention. + +With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask +you to rise and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. PETERS. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. PETERS. Paul Conrad Peters. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? + +Dr. PETERS. Doctor of medicine. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline for me briefly your educational +background? + +Dr. PETERS. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington, +Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950, +and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took +my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I +took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from +1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F. +Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was +regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since +July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern +Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters? + +Dr. PETERS. I am certified by the American Board of Urology--1960. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical services to +President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. PETERS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating +to your arriving on the scene where he was? + +Dr. PETERS. As I just gave you a while ago? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. PETERS. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing +material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in +the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot +and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent +of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I +thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he +would probably be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the +emergency room to see if I could render assistance. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency +room? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, could I ask a question or two? + +Mr. SPECTER. Sure. + +Dr. PETERS. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that +correct? + +Mr. SPECTER. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. +Peters. + +Dr. PETERS. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got +there, I really don't know for certain. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived? + +Dr. PETERS. When I arrived the following people I noted were present +in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first +thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the +stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be +placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in +shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and +that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones +was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do +to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know +it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he +and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of +tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then +helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into +the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any others present at that time, before you go +on as to what aid you rendered? + +Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present? + +Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that +time? + +Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a +moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President +and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone +who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I +don't remember his name. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley? + +Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, +because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which +was done. + +Mr. SPECTER. He requested that. + +Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because +he was an Addisonian. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex +which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain +hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these +hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the +individual may succumb. + +Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal +physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian? + +Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids +because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time? + +Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, +but they were coming in and out. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the +best of your recollection? + +Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there? + +Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or +have you now given me everyone you can recall? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I +walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark +also came in during the maneuvering. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative +procedures? + +Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I +believe, came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come in? + +Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy. + +Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and +a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was +determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the +wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling +sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. +Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put +it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest, +and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right +side? + +Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what else was done for the President? + +Dr. PETERS. About the same time--there was a question of whether he +really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his +pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received +a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic +bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight +fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage? + +Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that +he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an +additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite +interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an +ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. +I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at +the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral +pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type +of brace he was wearing? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset. + +Mr. SPECTER. How thick was it? + +Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch. + +Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick? + +Dr. PETERS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection. + +Mr. SPECTER. It encompassed his midsection? + +Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess +about 8 to 11 inches. + +Mr. SPECTER. In width? + +Dr. PETERS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the +lower part of his chest? + +Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his +chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he +had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should +open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the +tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to +apparatus for assisting his respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart +massage? + +Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had +been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had +observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared +to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart +massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, +and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct +massage of the heart itself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President? + +Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of +the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the +question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there +was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately +began external chest compression. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes +were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, +and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to +administer fluid and blood which he did receive. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given +the President? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead? + +Dr. PETERS. That's correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made? + +Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can +tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that. + +Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, +present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time +there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, +the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others +by that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest +first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those +people I have just named. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to +leave? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he +thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention +to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked +around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's +wound? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been +interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I +noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a +large defect in the occiput. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you notice in the occiput? + +Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area +that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain +loss in the area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this +area below here? + +Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately +following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once +or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted +the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity +missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of +exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were they? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or +twice--that was my question at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that? + +Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically? + +Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed +it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his +neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed? + +Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by +Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the +wound on his neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of +President Kennedy? + +Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any +notes of any sort? + +Dr. PETERS. No; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion? + +Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the +centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal +Government about this matter prior to today? + +Dr. PETERS. No; I have not. + +Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you +and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and +the questions that I would ask you? + +Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew +the general nature of the testimony which I would give. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the discussion? + +Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by +Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this +room today before the court reporter came in? + +Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of +assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation? + +Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the +President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very +much obliged to you. + +Dr. PETERS. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR. + +The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 +p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., +by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is +present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear +at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's +Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, +including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital. + +Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of +the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at +Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement +of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and +raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this +President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the +truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please, for the record? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling). + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of +Texas? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go? + +Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, +please. + +Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of +Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school +in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University +of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at +William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served +24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. +I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. +Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a +3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have +been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern +Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were +called into that matter? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins +approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and +asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room +to the emergency room, which I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, +approximately? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now +referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. +Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the +reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1." + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit +No. 1," for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. +Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted +to Mr. Price? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy. + +Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and +correct? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by +you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally? + +Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer +the last question. + +Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between +12:40 and 12:45. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. +Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at +the same time that I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other people present, such as nurses? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't +say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't +remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, +with Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from +being with Governor Connally? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because +Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty +and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico +went to President Kennedy. + +Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived? + +Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent +when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there +was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no +spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he +made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved +around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia +machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to +hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, +I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain +substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the +cranial wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the +cranial wound? + +Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from +the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the +cranium was entirely missing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand +side of the head? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time--really. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the +large area of missing skull? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at +that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the +cranium. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole +below the portion of missing skull? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see +this. + +Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. +Clark? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it +and I didn't notice it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole. + +Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if +you recollect? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about +these things--I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's +neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, +and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy +wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the +endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy +tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior +chest tube. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during +the time you were there? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing +a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic +electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the +skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the +wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there +were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where +the President was? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally +was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the +operating room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any? + +Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me--I had taken my equipment +with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that +Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the +elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on +the first elevator and I caught the second one. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator? + +Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved +off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set +up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from +the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe +operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with +him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to +questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and +proceeded to induce an anesthesia. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection +with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. +Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about +this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, Dr. +Giesecke? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins +and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it +with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the +American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. +Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which +is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then +discussed it with the Secretary of--may I retract that. That's about +it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of +the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any +representative of the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here +who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented"? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to +be legitimate. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything? + +Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other +notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence +it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other +information written down except what I had already given." + +Mr. SPECTER. And what had you already given--that letter report? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the +Federal Government about this matter? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, +did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition +proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the +record here after the court reporter started to take everything down? + +Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few +minutes before we started. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation? + +Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine. + +Dr. GIESECKE. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT + +The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on +March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, +and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all +the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the +medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial +Hospital. + +Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her +deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact +that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor. + +Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. HUNT. I do, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? + +Dr. HUNT. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling). + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession? + +Dr. HUNT. Medical doctor. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the +State of Texas? + +Dr. HUNT. I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what year were you so licensed? + +Dr. HUNT. 1950. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. HUNT. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine +in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of +pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, +which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time? + +Dr. HUNT. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board certification? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid +to the late President Kennedy? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your +being called into the case? + +Dr. HUNT. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology +department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, +that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and +Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and +checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took +it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been +intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to +the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by +a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were +properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt? + +Dr. HUNT. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry--quite a number of others--I just +can't remember who was there today. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any nurses present? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes--I don't know the names of any of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of +President Kennedy? + +Dr. HUNT. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes +were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I +assumed that he was in essence dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency +room? + +Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would have been--I would think near 12:45, +but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't +remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity +to observe the President in the way which you have just described? + +Dr. HUNT. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, ma'am. + +Dr. HUNT. A minute--2 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other observations at that time? + +Dr. HUNT. No--other than that everyone was working on him. They were +doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and +others were being started. + +Mr. SPECTER. I.V.'s? + +Dr. HUNT. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was +breathing for him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by +that? + +Dr. HUNT. Ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea +attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by +manual compression of the bag, ventilating him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on the President? + +Dr. HUNT. I actually did not see the wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time see a wound to the head? + +Dr. HUNT. No; I didn't see it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing +the head wound? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great +deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I +was on his left side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body? + +Dr. HUNT. I was about midbody actually, well, no--more at his shoulder, +when I leaned over to look at him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck? + +Dr. HUNT. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that +because I assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there +was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of his throat when you first +observed him, if you did observe it at all? + +Dr. HUNT. I couldn't--I don't know--I can't say. You mean, as far as +inside or outside? + +Mr. SPECTER. Outside. + +Dr. HUNT. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's +hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area. + +Mr. SPECTER. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his +throat? + +Dr. HUNT. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his +throat? + +Dr. HUNT. No--that's not to say that they were not doing one. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else was done for the President other than that which +you have already described? + +Dr. HUNT. Well, let's see, I don't--as far as actual observation, +I didn't--other things were done--I left at this time and went to +Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy? + +Dr. HUNT. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left? + +Dr. HUNT. No; he had not. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go when you left the President's room? + +Dr. HUNT. Straight across to operating room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived +there? + +Dr. HUNT. Governor Connally was present there and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived? + +Dr. HUNT. Red Duke--I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others +were. There were three or four. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action was being taken with respect to Governor +Connally upon your arrival there? + +Dr. HUNT. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had +one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an I.V. +going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking +other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his +leg, I think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up +to surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do on that occasion? + +Dr. HUNT. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did +was to look at the Governor--I took his pulse and he spoke to me and +said something, and noted his color. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the Governor say to you? + +Dr. HUNT. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real +specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought +type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I +stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who +has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I +happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go +upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in +and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe +the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad +that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should +have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table +down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, +but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that +critical. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate any further with the treatment of +Governor Connally? + +Dr. HUNT. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room +where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from +our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would +come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a +different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor--Dr. +Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the +surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you go upstairs, by what route? + +Dr. HUNT. I don't know--I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating +rooms? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes; there are four elevators. + +Mr. SPECTER. But do those lead from the emergency rooms? + +Dr. HUNT. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground +floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go +through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes; they can--they come up to these. + +Mr. SPECTER. What route would they have to take to do this? + +Dr. HUNT. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room +and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be a pretty long route, would it not? + +Dr. HUNT. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces +even, but there are three elevators there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What route did Governor Connally use? + +Dr. HUNT. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that +comes down into the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from +the emergency area into the operating room? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up--they +usually use that one. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there at that time? + +Dr. HUNT. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there +earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment +in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the +electrocardiogram. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room? + +Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 +minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall--I +didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in +and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and +stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until +they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or +5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and +it had arrived and been there a few minutes--3 or 4 minutes before we +were ready to take him upstairs. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was going on in the President's room when you +returned there? + +Dr. HUNT. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at +least 10 people, possibly there were more--I'm not real sure, but +there were still--at that time there were, I know, at least three +anesthesiologists in there--Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, +and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they still working on the President at that time? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay on that occasion? + +Dr. HUNT. Just, oh, a minute--just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's +eye and let him know I was there and going out. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever return to the President's room? + +Dr. HUNT. No; I don't believe I did--no; I'm sure I didn't, because I +came on upstairs with Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's +operation? + +Dr. HUNT. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal +Government prior to today? + +Dr. HUNT. No; I haven't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report of your participation in +the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy? + +Dr. HUNT. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I +think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements +for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that--I did not +appear before them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports yourself? + +Dr. HUNT. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your +participation? + +Dr. HUNT. None whatsoever. + +Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down +the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a +brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the questions I would ask you? + +Dr. HUNT. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the +record the same as you told me before the written deposition started? + +Dr. HUNT. Elaborated somewhat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of +aid to the Commission in its investigation? + +Dr. HUNT. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt. + +Dr. HUNT. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER + +The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present +in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken +in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking +into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President +and the care he received at Parkland Hospital. + +With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand +up and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. SALYER. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the +Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the +taking of testimony? + +Dr. SALYER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today +without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have +a right to, if you wish? + +Dr. SALYER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that right, is that right? + +Dr. SALYER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. SALYER. Kenneth Everett Salyer. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Dr. SALYER. Physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of +Texas? + +Dr. SALYER. Yes; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. SALYER. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree +at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a +first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you graduate from the University of +Kansas Medical School? + +Dr. SALYER. 1962. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer? + +Dr. SALYER. I am 27. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your +being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy? + +Dr. SALYER. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation +on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that +day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to +neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room +to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that +the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the +emergency room and see what the situation was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was +present? + +Dr. SALYER. Oh, I don't recall--I know that there were a room full of +doctors--I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you please? + +Dr. SALYER. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I +remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob +McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene +Akin was there also--at that time, when I first came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you think of any others? + +Dr. SALYER. No; I don't recall any others--there could have been some, +there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly +were a lot of nurses in there at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there? + +Dr. SALYER. No; I can't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived? + +Dr. SALYER. It was critical. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds +he may have sustained? + +Dr. SALYER. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of +some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right +temporal region--these were the two main wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat? + +Dr. SALYER. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people--a +lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think +just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also +arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who? + +Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is his name? + +Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman--Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think, +briefly. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long was he there? + +Dr. SALYER. I couldn't say--I'm not sure he came in the room. I know +they were together--I cannot say that for sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate? + +Dr. SALYER. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We +were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle +of blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident? + +Dr. SALYER. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I +remember him specifically because we were sort of working there +together on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an +opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat. + +Dr. SALYER. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your answer to that question? + +Dr. SALYER. The answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing +around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in +the throat. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency +room where the President was situated? + +Dr. SALYER. I really don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done for the President by way of treatment that +you observed? + +Dr. SALYER. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some +external cardiac massage--he had I.V.'s--intravenous fluids going in a +number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him. + +Mr. SPECTER. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer. + +Dr. SALYER. I said--all of the many other measures that we +administered--I don't recall specifically some of the other details as +far as medications and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the head wound? + +Dr. SALYER. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his +major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the +point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other +than he did have a gaping scalp wound--cranial wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about +your observations of this matter? + +Dr. SALYER. No one has. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid +to the President's Commission in its inquiry? + +Dr. SALYER. No, I believe not. + +Dr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer. + +Dr. SALYER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE + +The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March +25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in +response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken +because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the +doctors in attendance on President Kennedy. + +Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order +creating the Presidential Commission? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution +setting forth the rules for taking depositions? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the +3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to +receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before +you appear to have your deposition taken? + +Dr. WHITE. No, I want to have it taken now. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. WHITE. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. WHITE. Martin G. White. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Dr. WHITE. M.D.--physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice +medicine? + +Dr. WHITE. In this institution. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, please? + +Dr. WHITE. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern +University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University +and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Doctor? + +Dr. WHITE. Twenty-five. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being +treated on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. WHITE. I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were the circumstances of your being called into +the case? + +Dr. WHITE. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the +emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was +brought into the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do in connection with the President's +treatment? + +Dr. WHITE. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds? + +Dr. WHITE. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the +trauma room where he was treated. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wounds? + +Dr. WHITE. No, I did not see any other. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck? + +Dr. WHITE. I did not look and did not observe any. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present while the President was being +treated? + +Dr. WHITE. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to +be dead? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you leave? + +Dr. WHITE. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, +with the Governor, to be done. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White? + +Dr. WHITE. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians +immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a +number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was +lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, +Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what doctors were present at the time you left the +room? + +Dr. WHITE. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the +people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry +and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--I know they were there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who--what is his first name? + +Dr. WHITE. William Zedelitz. + +Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did he participate? + +Dr. WHITE. I don't believe that he had any--I don't know what he did +other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by +just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is he an intern as you are? + +Dr. WHITE. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present? + +Dr. WHITE. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I +say--many people were there whose faces I can't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, Jeanette, and +her last name--I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse +in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doris Nelson? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Jeanette Standridge? + +Dr. WHITE. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of +help to the Commission? + +Dr. WHITE. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming. + +Dr. WHITE. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW + +The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, +1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, +having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in +connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the +medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw +has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on +Governor Connally. + +Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Dr. SHAW. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? + +Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan +in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at +Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my +training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, +Mich., July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened +subsequent to then? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form +subsequent to that date, please? + +Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, +August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, +with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, +when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United +States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of +operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until +June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the +Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date +of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic +surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the +University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. SHAW. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in +to care for the Governor, please? + +Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school +from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is +approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past +the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard +under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on +to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President +had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the +medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other +medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in +dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that +Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I +proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived +at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and +Governor Connally had arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. +Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency +room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David +Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the +open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy +dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had +been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of +the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about +partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle +had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was +running. + +I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent +to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood, to be +available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been +alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the +Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to +be debrided and closed. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, +of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about +right--but I have to refresh my memory. + +Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the +operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit +No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the records of Parkland +Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call +your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, +under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor +Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by +you? + +Dr. SHAW. It was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as +to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m.? + +Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude? + +Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, +directing your attention first to the wound on his back? + +Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined, it was found that +there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and +approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right +posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. The arm pit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the +nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, +approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the +pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro +between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body. + +Mr. SPECTER. Define the pleura, please, Doctor, in lay language. + +Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer +of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, +diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body +containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds +which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a +wound of exit, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller +wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or +slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it +has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the +wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in +evaluating gunshot wounds? + +Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and +wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience +was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time +that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period +of approximately a year. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total +number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat? + +Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds +seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a +thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the +point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the +Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed? + +Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the +trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact +that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding. + +Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw---- + +Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there? + +Mr. SPECTER. Please do. + +Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall +struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting +direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. +The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth +rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, +which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in +deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line? + +Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the +rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the +rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there +was very little in the way of deflection. + +Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Dr. Shaw, I would like to call your +attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. +Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his +deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, +first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the +point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is +accurate? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider +to be quite accurate. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, +or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that +characterization by picture? + +Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say +that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting +of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a +centimeter and a half in length. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best +you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you +first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that? + +(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, +showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of +the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of +Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it +was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. + +Off the record, just a minute. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called +my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly +depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the +nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a +little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which +would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, +more in line with the actual position of the nipple. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does +that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor +Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line? + +Dr. SHAW. It does. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we +have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you +would, please? + +Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. + +(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in +drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point +of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation +on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two +wounds as I have shown on the other figure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder +there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can +recollect it on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHAW. This is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is +just about the size that it would have been on his body? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale. + +Mr. SPECTER. In good scale to the body? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in +terms of its absolute size? + +Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be--about like that--do you want me to mark +that? + +Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle. + +Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit." + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your +initials under it. + +(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of +exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1. + +Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on +the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through +Governor Connally's chest? + +Dr. SHAW. It does. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in +further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1? + +Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record? + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that +the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, +but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be +helpful to us? + +Dr. SHAW. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful +by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2? + +Dr. SHAW. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you +performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for +him? + +Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an +endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled +with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been +applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better +inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the +damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework +of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the +skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile. + +The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and +aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the +whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit +and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered +with a sterile towel. + +First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the +wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in +a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and +subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the +bullet where the chest had been softened. + +It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been +shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been +the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall +and to the underlying lung. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting +as secondary missiles"? + +Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments +and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling +ball--they fly in all directions. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment +which you performed? + +Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously +damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal +muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been +stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but +this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be +repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been +torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion +of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with +a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed +from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle +lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two +equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but +had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle +lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating +the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then +approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral +surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut. + +Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the +anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak. + +Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma +in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into +the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the +surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly +caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress +suture No. 3 O chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close +this laceration from which blood was oozing. + +Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined +but no injury was found. + +The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in +the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded +into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than +necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in +the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these +tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth +intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted +sutures of No. O chromic gut. + +The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then +approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The +laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with +No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous +tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the +lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up +through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was +marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with +interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin +was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. + +Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin +surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging +the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this +wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and +the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration +in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the +laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted +vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into +the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape +and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the +operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and +Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the +right wrist and left thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the +right wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably +not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the +lower end of the right radius and I saw one large wound on the--I +guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small +wound on the dorsum of the right wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. +Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the +volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright +or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on +the dorsum. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led +you to that conclusion? + +Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound +that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was +my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, +that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we +go off the record? + +Mr. SPECTER. Sure. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness Dr. Shaw off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, let's go back on the record. + +Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a +cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the +responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your +operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I +believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room +before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was +scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a +compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand +that would need his attention. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record +here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible +angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation +to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which +you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural +position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view +of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning +and put on the record very much of the comments and observations +you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this +deposition has proceeded. + +Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the +wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you +have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar +side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the +wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry +is smaller and the point of exit is larger. + +Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your +thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller +point of exit on the wrist. + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor +Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of +the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the +volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound +until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the +wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the +skin through which a missile had obviously passed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the +wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your +recollection? + +Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the +larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the +wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from +Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the +junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 +cm. in length. + +Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you +observed? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that +would correspond with the wound I observed. + +Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound +of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was +that perhaps that was the wound of exit? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor +Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the +attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion +would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact +with the anterior portion of the right chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound +on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry +because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the +dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in +trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into +a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the +wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the +chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the +arm wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard +the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not +be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of +a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were +sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting +either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the +elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary +motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an +angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving +toward his body. + +Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. +If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm +here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get +my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the +trajectory of the bullet into the chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went +through the wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one +bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the +wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the +point of entrance and which was the point of exit? + +Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist +was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially +spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, +fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled +out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment +of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left +thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing +through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, +or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum +of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of +entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too +dissimilar in size. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the +size of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on +the dorsal aspect of the wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was +about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but +I didn't make an accurate observation at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed +you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the +wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the +size of fragments which remained in the femur. + +Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this +wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential +manner---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh? + +Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a +tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit +in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual +size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would +make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture +wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very +small fragment in the femur? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion +as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the +appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, +and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that +the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought +that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a +fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving +that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the +wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through +the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the +characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone? + +Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could +be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking +his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had +never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question +of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had +that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be +as to which point was entry and which point was exit? + +Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller +than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, +if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and +this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as +to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean on the volar aspect? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more +bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the +wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the +fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in +carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the +volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect? + +Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass +through the wrist, but struck the wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you +postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did +not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect. + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit +from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I +would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the +thought that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at +it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the +wounds on the two sides of the wrist. + +Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute? + +Mr. SPECTER. Sure--off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect +that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's +thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, +that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and +tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's +attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is +reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine +bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which +was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was +from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect. + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you +would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the +situation? + +Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment +which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that. + +Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial +side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial +side? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the +way through. + +Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and +could have gone on through. + +Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a +lot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible. + +Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible--I +think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his +coat and no hole on this side---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side---- + +Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the +situation. + +Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve--the +sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever +had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events +of the day he was shot? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. +The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a +bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle +shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been +injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost +immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. +He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he +stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal? + +Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot +before he felt this wound in his chest? + +Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear--no, +wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he +doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He +only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard +three. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three? + +Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots? + +Dr. SHAW. Two shots. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was +hit by the second shot and lost consciousness? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from +hearing the rifle report. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he +was wounded by a second shot? + +Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said +he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of +wounding to the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard +President Kennedy say anything? + +Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's +the only thing he told me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the +President say anything? + +Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. +Connally told me on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the +present time? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an +end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay +at Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts +that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been +struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, +assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per +second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a +distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President +Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and +exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor +Connally's chest in your opinion? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by +the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the +position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly +possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues +of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found +on Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that +you found on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was +struck by one missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation +that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way +which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as +"Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?" + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this +diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet +then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to +dorsal? + +Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is +one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify +about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and +the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that +would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be. + +Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked +on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be +inconsistent with your view of the situation? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes--he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger +than the wound on the front here, doesn't he? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger. + +Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory. + +Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in +this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts +here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the +bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that +bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second +bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might +have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or +a second bullet which struck the wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. That is true--as far as the wounds are concerned, this +theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of +the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one +bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir? + +Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of +the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a +period of--well if there were 5-1/2 seconds between the three shots, +there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time +to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is +hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on +the first occasion? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was +struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, +depending entirely on how fast she reacted. + +Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not +struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the +hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in +the wrist at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and +struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the +bottom of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives +of the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case? + +Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a +member of the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret +Service man? + +Dr. SHAW. Once. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him? + +Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this +transcript. + +Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with +the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a +discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I +would ask you? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time +the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this +afternoon? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on +Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in +Commission Exhibit No. 392? + +Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to +the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record +room of Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which +you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that +are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would +actually be hearsay. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing. + +Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome. + +Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. +Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body? + +Dr. SHAW. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest? + +Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was +found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist? + +Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the +suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray +of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the +wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was +there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it +struck him? + +Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, +but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long +enough so that there might have been some tumbling. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back? + +Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there +might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical +puncture wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might +not have? + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned +this or not. + +Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have +been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed +through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the +surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling. + +Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, +it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the +appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not +struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. + +Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the +bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a +tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some +tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps +the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle +of entry. + +Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor. + +Dr. SHAW. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY + +The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., +on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that +I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in +response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. + +May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is +to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the +wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, +and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying +concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that +we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the +purpose of our calling on you. + +Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. GREGORY. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? + +Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background, please? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana +University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed +5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana +University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an +interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I +assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic +surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the +Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board? + +Dr. GREGORY. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic +Surgery; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified? + +Dr. GREGORY. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of +Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the +treatment of gunshot wounds? + +Dr. GREGORY. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began +with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus +occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the +U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our +service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my +experience is continuing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds +you have had experience with? + +Dr. GREGORY. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in +approximately 500 such missile wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have +occasion to treat Governor Connally? + +Dr. GREGORY. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your +call to treat the Governor? + +Dr. GREGORY. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the +medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there +when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then +know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency +room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired +as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would +require my assistance. + +I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from +the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the +confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of +Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, +I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room +area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and +was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw +advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his +wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked +that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the +Governor's chest wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you have that conversation +with Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have +been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22. + +Mr. SPECTER. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Robert Shaw. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment +of Governor Connally in a general way? + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that +the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was +his operation which took precedence over all others. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, was that operation completed before your operation +commenced? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we +even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive +care. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor +Connally begin? + +Dr. GREGORY. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock +p.m. on Friday, November 22. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how long did it last? + +Dr. GREGORY. The better part of an hour--I should judge--45 to 50 +minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation? + +Dr. GREGORY. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. +William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw +him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell +us? + +Dr. GREGORY. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been +taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed +in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the +very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his +general status at that time was quite satisfactory. + +Mr. SPECTER. What observations did you have with respect to his wound +in the chest? + +Dr. GREGORY. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and +draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to +observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it. + +Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, +the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on +the anterior surface. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor? + +Dr. GREGORY. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of +a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a +rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger +than this, perhaps an inch and a half across. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound +that you described as the wound of entry? + +Dr. GREGORY. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the +time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area +probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the wound of entry or exit? + +Dr. GREGORY. That's the wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the wound of entry? + +Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, +since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his +wrist? + +Dr. GREGORY. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest +operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the +operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound +of the wrist, what did you then see? + +Dr. GREGORY. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, +which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay +about an inch and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a +little to the radial side of the wrist area. + +There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a +centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this +wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length +and did not gape. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that? + +Dr. GREGORY. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the volar is equivalent to what? + +Dr. GREGORY. The palm surface of the hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the +wound of entry and exit on the wrist? + +Dr. GREGORY. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the +debridement was carried out---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate +that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision +all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign +objects. + +In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been +carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the +fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through +the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect +which would indicate that it was a wound of exit? + +Dr. GREGORY. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the +missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through +the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft +tissues. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits +of fragments or portions of a bullet missile? + +Dr. GREGORY. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic +fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows +in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these +were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic +in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for +further disposition. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory? + +Dr. GREGORY. I would judge that they were first--flat, rather thin, and +that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of +an inch. They were very small. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds +to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the +Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments +which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet +missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time? + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot +escape certain ballistic implications in this business. + +I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact +as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, +if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore +more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material +or is jacketed in some way. + +Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as +it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase +the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the +formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times +velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some +knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the +missile would be useful here too. + +Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested +to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient +size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have +emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or +whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that +would be consistent with having virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet +emerge. + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by +X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, +I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total +missile mass without reducing its volume greatly. + +Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile +weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in +Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that +struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but +probably was distorted. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments +which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor? + +Dr. GREGORY. No, not really, but it would have been very small--very +small. + +Mr. SPECTER. What treatment or action did you take with respect to +treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory? + +Dr. GREGORY. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a +decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional +manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference +to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments +of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured +radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire +limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your operative procedure? + +Dr. GREGORY. That completed my operative procedure for that day for +Governor Connally--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor +at that time? + +Dr. GREGORY. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just +described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect +of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have +disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass +through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the +superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An +X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in +his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have +produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed +to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to +reveal any wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of +a missile? + +Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. +by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, +that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have +accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his +thigh or a wound of that character. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect +of his thigh. + +Dr. GREGORY. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in +diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the +thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my +part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in +the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever +he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage +but which was not resident in him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken +to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh? + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately +the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general--round. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. +missile? + +Dr. GREGORY. I will have to guess--I don't know what dimension--of a +6.5-mm.--yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that +could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory. I now show you two typewritten pages which +are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, +which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from +Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the +two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on +Governor Connally, where you are listed as the surgeon, and I ask +you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether +or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been +describing. + +Dr. GREGORY. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to +be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my +operation on Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts contained in this report the same as +those to which you have testified here today? + +Dr. GREGORY. I think they are--I hope so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you +have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this +report on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. GREGORY. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 +weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the +Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist +was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On +the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor +was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general +anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of +paris cast was applied at that time. + +The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, +and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. +I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about +1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up +examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state. + +I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in +the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another +examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again +the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were +considered to be satisfactory. + +Now, I've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you +wish-- + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you +are thinking that through. + +Dr. GREGORY. All right. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the +record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, Dr. Gregory. + +Dr. GREGORY. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to +Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, +found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a +new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again +came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory +healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of +treatment, was discontinued. + +At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he +wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate +may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally? + +Dr. GREGORY. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery +of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand. + +I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will +have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time +anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That +will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet +unanticipated symptom. + +I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in +Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the +point of view of recovery from his chest wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are +a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show +these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number +assigned to reports. + +I am going to ask the Court Reporter to mark this particular copy as +Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1. + +(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, +whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally? + +Dr. GREGORY. This one does not. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what respect? + +Dr. GREGORY. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist +on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal +surface of the forearm in my view--in my opinion--and the reverse holds +for the wound of exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, +Doctor Gregory? + +Dr. GREGORY. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, +and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the +point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond +with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound? + +Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately +depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would +be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, +as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and +it may not be correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this +sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the +Governor's wounds? + +Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with +their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry +in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I +recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, +and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted. + +Mr. SPECTER. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry +to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar +aspect? + +Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they +do; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond +with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally? + +Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of +entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it +actually existed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a +seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect +to what action is described on the seated man? + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the +several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single +missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of +the wounds which are shown. + +Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted +on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that +the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very +simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, +and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, +without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor +in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into +this same trajectory. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional +opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which +you have described on Governor Connally? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. +One of these--is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the +various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being +at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of +the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least +destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where +the bullet apparently expended itself. + +Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory? + +Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, +and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was +literally shattered by the missile. + +We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency +to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered +was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred +in the radius--the forearm. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the +velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony +portions? + +Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity +with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the +amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the +thorax to the last entrance in the thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot +by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and +the second one striking the back side of his wrist? + +Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these +reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--I'll qualify that--a high +velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into +the wound which it creates. + +I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. +Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic +material was found in the chest wound. + +An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was +carried into the wound of the wrist. + +I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile +striking the wrist would not have carried material into it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you +to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a +single high velocity bullet? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile +wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting +calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone +fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the +part. + +I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right +forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it +struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a +missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck +his wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile +had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet +per second? + +Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--2,000 feet per second. + +Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that +strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a +missile of any mass as well. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet +per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the +distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 +feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the +consequences would be on that wrist? + +Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle +wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer +range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of +155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a +similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. +Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional +intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this +effect--assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile +directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of +approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from +a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a +6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of +the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his +body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the +President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back +of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described? + +Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can +formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this +situation? + +Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about +it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply +of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this +sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that +is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through +President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been +distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. +Now, if you like, I will define that for you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you please? + +Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component +of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, +there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In +order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary +motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with +the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is +literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile +should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop +it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile +usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as +a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected +to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of +entry in Governor Connally's back. + +These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the +reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as +though it had never struck anything except him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's +back? + +Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to +operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he +carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him +about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that? + +Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would +not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was +the initial impact of that missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that +my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have +gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor +Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile +could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and +have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit +on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the +thigh which you described. + +Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to +be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter +prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly +identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave +to Mr. Warren on those occasions? + +Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in +much less detail. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and +me about these matters, from the Federal Government? + +Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the +assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal +Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was that about? + +Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had +been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might +use for ballistic analysis. + +I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was +properly identified. + +Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to +transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us +with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have +answered questions on all during the course of this deposition? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the +Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same +general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about +here today? + +Dr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be +helpful in any way to the work of the Commission? + +Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had +with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his +subsequent recovery and none other. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming. + +Dr. GREGORY. Very well. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES + +The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March +23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this +session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, +that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant +to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission +on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts +relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor +Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared +here today in response to a letter of request from the President's +Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which +he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on +Governor Connally. + +Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's +Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. SHIRES. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record? + +Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir? + +Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of +Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in +Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, +Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts +Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency--Parkland +Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the +United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval +Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, +Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship +_Haven_--do you want staff positions? + +Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well. + +Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University +of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant +Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of +Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires? + +Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it +was a premedical 3 years--it was 1944. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree? + +Dr. SHIRES. 1948. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified? + +Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for +President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. +I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical +Association. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and +services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you +were called into this case? + +Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to +Parkland Hospital, it was determined--well--all aid was given to the +President that was available, and it was determined that Governor +Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor +Connally was to the chest. + +Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery--I don't need to tell their +titles--you will have all that? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes--correct. + +Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, +instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the +status of the President and also the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist +in the operative procedures on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas? + +Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative +procedures on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in +progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement +were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of +Governor Connally's chest wound? + +Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided +and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very +good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being +prepared for surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his +back? + +Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his +chest? + +Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time--later, but not at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the +wound on his back and on his chest? + +Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large +part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the +wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, +had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial +appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, +so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I +first saw them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from +giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of +exit? + +Dr. SHIRES. They would--really. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the +hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything? + +Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and +although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with +the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of +the wrist which looked like a missile wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of +entry or the point of exit? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 +cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower +third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity +came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. +bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration +of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little +soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound +of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it +appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound +or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had +subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that +time? + +Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray +and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue +damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this +small fragment. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that +fragment? + +Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might +weigh in grains? + +Dr. SHIRES. In grains--a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a +grain--very small. + +Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole +which you described in the thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and +weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may +create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a +relatively slow velocity will create the same defect. + +Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ? + +Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, +irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel +alloy wire and removable sutures. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did +to Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start? + +Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. The operation that you were concerned with? + +Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have +started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end? + +Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it--about 20 minutes later. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the +operation? + +Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don +Patman. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified +heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of +Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor +Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, +dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you +whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative +procedures on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have +heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what +you did? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on +Governor Connally subsequent to November 22? + +Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount--postoperative care was of the +essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and +fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of +postoperative--I don't know how much of this you want--in other words, +he had clotting defects--I don't know whether you want to take this +down--I just want to ask you how much detail you would like? + +Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description--perhaps, I will +direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. + +First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963? + +Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every +2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 +hours at a stretch. + +Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him? + +Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks--never less than +three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital? + +Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the +hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it +was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial +saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the +injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown +having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids +while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the +saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, +anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future? + +Dr. SHIRES. Do I? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he +really requires at the moment is the bone--the orthopedic followup, +which incidentally is also completely healed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have +marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. +Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention +first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor +Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the +exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of +the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with +your observations of Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, +would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond +with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with +the wounds on Governor Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent? + +Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's +injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from +surgery, was the apparent position that he was in in the car, which +would explain one missile producing all three wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion? + +Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery--this was the 22d, late in the +afternoon. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the +Governor's position? + +Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had +turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see +what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, +that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. + +I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers +turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a +bullet. I forgot about that. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that? + +Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later. + +Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital? + +Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes--4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the +events. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the occasion for your conversation with him? + +Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was +reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, +since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively +in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis? + +Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn +blue. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after +he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the +second day post-operatively. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before +the wound? + +Dr. SHIRES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was +suffering from lack of oxygen? + +Dr. SHIRES. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. +He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen +could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected +his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not +last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from +the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he +recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he +said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and +how it went as closely as you can recount it now? + +Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, +Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she +related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating +to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he +couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and +admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the +whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers +hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot--he remembers turning to +the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought +as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," +and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until +he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of +that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several +hours later. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"? + +Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say--he didn't comment on it at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard? + +Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did--no. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound? + +Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if +I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a +firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did +too--thought it was a gun--I believe he did too. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing +President Kennedy say anything? + +Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President +Kennedy said anything? + +Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some +things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having +uttered a word. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally? + +Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect +that her husband had been shot and--well, that was really the essence +of it. It wasn't phrased that way. + +Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence--what did Governor Connally +say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number +two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he +turned--those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them? + +Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right +and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few +seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did he feel himself receive a shot? + +Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his +wrist? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about feeling anything in his thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his +recollections on the day of the assassination? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he +was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them--apparently he +remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the +assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion? + +Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else did he say to you at any other time? + +Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that +happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he +was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was +after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing--he +was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the +cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, +of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his +recollection of the things on the day of the assassination? + +Dr. SHIRES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with +Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other +than that which you have already testified about? + +Dr. SHIRES. No--those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't +remember any others, except--well, no--most of the others were--we +were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for +recovery and that sort of thing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your +professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor +Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by +the same bullet? + +Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably +one missile, one bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that? + +Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory--as we were reconstructing the +events in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as +best we could, this appeared to be our opinion. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those +calculations? + +Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker? + +Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, +I'm sure they did--it was before I got there. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw? + +Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it +as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. +Everyone was under the impression this was one missile--through and +through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three +teams who had a different point of view? + +Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could +have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging +from his chest and the second going into his wrist? + +Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so +variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which +it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of +combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to +state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of +the missile was, so I am sure it is possible. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being +a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and +the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 +to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President +Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, +and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his +chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that +would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so +distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was +hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure +5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right +and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is +purely conjecture, of course. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that +is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy +and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude +that it was not the same bullet? + +Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been--purely from the +standpoint of the wounds, it is possible. + +Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally +necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, +entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in +order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to +postulate turning by the Governor? + +Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory--I suppose not. +I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet +was fired. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 +degrees? + +Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as +his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the +chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was +right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back +of the wrist, or how? + +Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in +order to have the same bullet make all three wounds? + +Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, +in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to +have his right arm raised up, next to his chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it +not? + +Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here. + +Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side? + +Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely +he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, +whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been +sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. +It's just a question of which side is up. + +Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be +down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting +position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in +towards his chest area? + +Dr. SHIRES. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done +to the rib? + +Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were +in the chest, bullet fragments, if any? + +Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a +small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw +saw before I arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any +knowledge of that? + +Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during +the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that +procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to +whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile +that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, +assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 +feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the +end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole +in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the +underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had +to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then +it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did +and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small +fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin +in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit +Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and +do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that +I have just described for you? + +Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that? + +Dr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high +velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet? + +Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very +strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or +a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just +depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. +That's why it's awfully hard to predict. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking +of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile +whose velocity was spent after going through President Kennedy and +through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the +thigh? + +Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any +representative of the Federal Government prior to today? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you? + +Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the +Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the +administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies +of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the +President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those +same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and +exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at +previously in these five diagrams. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative +of the Federal Government before today? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the +FBI--well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone +what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with +regard to the President or the Governor--no. + +Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did +they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or +were other subjects covered? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the +Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions? + +Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the +court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did +you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition +and the subject matters of interest to the Commission? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during +the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the +record here this afternoon? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which +you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work? + +Dr. SHIRES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very +much, Dr. Shires. + +Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald--that's my only other question? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the +record at this point.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding +the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions +about care for Lee Harvey Oswald. + +First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last +two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial +Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with +you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two +sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared +on treatment of Mr. Oswald? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition +was when you first saw him? + +Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was +unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart +beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. +There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet +could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting +this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition, +it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every +major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to +be the case. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him? + +Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, +intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, +draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in +the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major +vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there +had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and +around the abdomen. + +After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the +bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, +16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and +he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss +incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though +we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made +at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but +never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial +impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac +death and not cardiac arrest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in +lay terms? + +Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature +recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too +fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it +might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes +from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected +it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, +finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal +wound--there was no question about that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and +treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which +I have just shown you in Commission No. 392? + +Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires. + +Dr. SHIRES. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY + +The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in +response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and +he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified +in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see +President Kennedy. + +Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order +creating the President's Commission? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of +testimony? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, +even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right +to, if you want it? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Dr. DULANY. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Dr. DULANY. M.D.--Medical Doctor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of +Texas? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please, +starting with college--graduation from college? + +Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of +Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was +in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the +service in November, and started a residency here in surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and +then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the +room where President Kennedy was being cared for. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's +treatment? + +Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the +President was being treated? + +Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in +the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so +I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 +minutes or so afterwards. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it? + +Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President +when you entered? + +Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he +had a large head wound--that was the first thing I noticed. + +There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was +later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other +doctors were putting chest tubes in. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time? + +Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark +and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of +course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, +Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were +in there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there? + +Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there? + +Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be +helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter? + +Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you +probably already know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President? + +Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed? + +Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the +President's neck? + +Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any +statement along that line. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at +all? + +Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was +told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the +best I can tell you. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing +here today. + +Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE + +The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on +March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right +hand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these +deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, you may be seated. + +Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, +and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in +connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally +in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland +Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that. + +Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting +that you appear? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town +and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, +but I haven't seen it yet. + +Mr. SPECTER. You haven't seen it yet? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the +letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the +White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is +a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me +to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' +notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your +deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are +agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and +take it now. + +Miss STANDRIDGE (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can +just go ahead if you want to--it's all right with me. + +Mr. SPECTER. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today +or next week? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it does not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Ruth Jeanette Standridge. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Head nurse of the emergency rooms. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery +area in Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you receive notification that the President of the +United States was en route to Parkland Hospital? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you receive that notification? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. About 12:30, I guess. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of +getting that notice? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma +room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was trauma room 1 set up? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same +time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was it arrived? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I was busy with the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do when the Governor arrived? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the +orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the +syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, what do you mean by "IV"? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Intravenous fluids. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor +Connally's clothes? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the +Governor's shirt? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the front of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Not that I can say for sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. There could have been or could not have been, but you just +don't know? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood +that we noticed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything on the coat? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the coat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing his suit coat? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in +the coat? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't see one. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw +him? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. He was laying on his back on the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of cart was he lying on? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. The emergency cart on rollers. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is that emergency cart constructed of? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on +the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to +X-ray and to surgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Of metal with four big tires on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. With four roller tires on it? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on top of the Governor? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he completely undressed? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being +undressed? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly +that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the +money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier. + +Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there +was a couple of other doctors--I don't remember who they were, but they +were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in +before they got the Governor's clothes off. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Not unusual. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet, specifically? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear the sound of anything fall? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes, there were. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the +emergency room? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I +think everything was taken off. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with Governor Connally following the +completion of his being undressed? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. He was immediately carried to the elevator--emergency +elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room +on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that also describable as a stretcher? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say "Yes"? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing +him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up +again--I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 +and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was +closing with him on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into +the elevator? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I +started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put +him into the elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and +down the hall--is it a little ways? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; you go through that section to get to this +elevator from the major surgery section. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far did you help push him from the major surgery +section? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. About from the door that went into OBGN. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another +20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, +which is about 6 or 8 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to +get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the +stretcher? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I could just see--I could see the +stretcher--yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the +door was closed in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No, not--I think his feet were at the end--I could +just see feet--I believe the feet were there at that door, you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who +were pushing him when you last saw him? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure that was Governor Connally? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No, that's what I said--I just saw his feet, which I +assumed it was--it was the same doctors. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing +the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his +feet? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. You went back and got his clothes? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with those clothes? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I asked the administrator who should I give them to, +and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they +were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were +two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see--I wanted +to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door +and they asked for somebody, and he said he was--he identified himself +as Cliff Carter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you give him the clothing? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what he did with it? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard what he did with it? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in +Representative Gonzales' office in a closet. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is he a Texas Representative? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. In his office closet where? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. In Washington, D.C. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating +room area? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots +are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the +hallway into the nurses' station. + +Mr. SPECTER. You can go around in part of the operating room area? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Isn't into the premises--it's just in the hallway into +the nurses' station. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond +that into the operating room area? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots +are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will +be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at +anytime while he was in the emergency room? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't +taken off at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go +only to the operating room? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to +delivery--up to the delivery room on third floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is on first floor? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No patients--only classrooms and administrative +offices--business offices. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is on third floor? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. The delivery room--it opens up into the delivery room +and then the post mortem wards. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think +might be helpful to us in any way? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have +already stated. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; I was in the room--I took the mop in. The +orderlies mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of +the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came +back in. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him there? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how was he clothed at that time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, as far as from his waist up--was all that was +uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet--it was +wrapped around his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. What clothing did he have on from the waist down? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. It was just a sheet cover--I don't know of anything +under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all +unclothed, which we do routinely. + +Mr. SPECTER. He was all unclothed? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I said I assumed he was--I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did he have from the waist up? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Nothing. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was he on at that time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. A stretcher cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the +President's stretcher? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take +the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the +investigation by the Warren Commission? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking +questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about +before the court reporter came in? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the +Federal Government? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. The Secret Service--yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk with them once or more than once? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's +office and another time just briefly--he came to see the layout of the +emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whose office--Mr. Wright? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Personnel manager here. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those +occasions? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part +of the hospital on another day, you say? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. I think he came back up into the emergency room at +that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you identified some of the things? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the +Federal Government? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any representative of the State government? + +Miss STANDRIDGE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. Those are all--those are the only +questions I have. + +Miss STANDRIDGE. Thank you for that. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER + +The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, +at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and +she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right +hand and take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this +proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Miss WESTER. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this +proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the +assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy +and Governor Connally following their being shot. + +The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to +testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning +treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition +of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at +the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland +Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please? + +Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester? + +Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy +advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking +testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester? + +Miss WESTER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the +Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations +relating to the taking of testimony? + +Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some +questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor +Connally? + +Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy? + +Miss WESTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please? + +Miss WESTER. I am a registered nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed? + +Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland +Memorial Hospital? + +Miss WESTER. Nine years--or 9 1/2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were +back on November 22, 1963? + +Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I +assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy +and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to +receive treatment? + +Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all? + +Miss WESTER. At noon, around noon--noontime--I'm not sure as to the +exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the +phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President +were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said +that a Secret Service agent was down there and as soon as the +President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the +treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland? + +Miss WESTER. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us +to set up for a craniotomy. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language? + +Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time? + +Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I +received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of +the chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the +requests you received? + +Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two +rooms for these two cases. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy? + +Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy? + +Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5. + +Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms? + +Miss WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter? + +Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep +traffic out of the operating room and keep people back--keep the halls +clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating +room with several doctors--arrived by stretcher. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first +floor, or by what means of locomotion? + +Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the +operating room--it comes directly from emergency room and which--there +were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the +elevator on the second floor of the operating room area? + +Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the +hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door? + +Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the +stretcher, following the point where you met them? + +Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we +transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating +table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and +placed them in the hallway by the operating table. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when +you first saw him on the stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on +him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time? + +Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the +bottom of the cart in a paper sack. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an +operating table? + +Miss WESTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the +operating room? + +Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we +transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into +the operating room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you +transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table? + +Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating +table? + +Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and +at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to +sleep. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at +that time. + +Miss WESTER. Dr.--there were many--Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e +(spelling)--there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and +there were many others--right offhand, I can't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time? + +Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to +that point? + +Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of +the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a +small bundle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet? + +Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside +the other up into a small bundle. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the +number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances? + +Miss WESTER. The cart--the mattress on the cart is covered with one +sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in +the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey +cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up +and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of +hypodermic needles--well, packed in and sterilized in. There were +several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those +things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher +cart? + +Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart? + +Miss WESTER. There could have been--I don't recall right off--I can't +remember that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of +the stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a +curved hemostat--I couldn't say for sure--I'm not sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally +on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there +any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that +particular spot? + +Miss WESTER. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Miss WESTER. There is a clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating +room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken? + +Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor +Connally was taken off of it? + +Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly +close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an +orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---- + +Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.? + +Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and +removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and +proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was +standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day? + +Miss WESTER. Not that I know of. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher +looked like? + +Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin +mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It +has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper +shelf of the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of? + +Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal--steel. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress? + +Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the +sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were +rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in +connection with this particular movement of the stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection +with this particular movement of the stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling +the sheets up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection +with this particular movement of the stretcher? + +Miss WESTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these +events at some time in the past? + +Miss WESTER. Yes; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else? + +Miss WESTER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or +more than one occasion? + +Miss WESTER. Only one occasion. + +Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting +to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you +about the purpose of this proceeding? + +Miss WESTER. Yes; you did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this +formal deposition started? + +Miss WESTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously +testified to here to this effect? + +Miss WESTER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have +anything on it? + +Miss WESTER. It had some blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort +concerning the matters about which you have testified here today? + +Miss WESTER. No; I haven't. + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much +for appearing here. + +Miss WESTER. Fine. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS + +The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on +March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. +Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered +to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter +request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission +on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment +of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital. + +Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge +about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported +while in the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, +to state your full name? + +Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed? + +Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity? + +Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass +by I did not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that? + +Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was +supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone? + +Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I +don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr. +Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there? + +Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if +anything? + +Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the +operating table and put him on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on? + +Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting +with what was it made of? + +Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet +on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is +the length of the cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they +rolled Governor Connally off of it? + +Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed? + +Mrs. ROSS. Jimison. + +Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison? + +Mrs. ROSS. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher? + +Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time? + +Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this? + +Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? + +Mrs. ROSS. One time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government +about this matter? + +Mrs. ROSS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be +helpful to the Commission? + +Mrs. ROSS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing. + +Mrs. ROSS. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON + +The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, +1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your +right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this +Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. JIMISON. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification +from the President's Commission advising you that you would be +contacted to have your deposition taken? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive +order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional +resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking +depositions by the Commission? + +Mr. JIMISON. I believe it did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; +do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having +them reported by the court reporter here? + +Mr. JIMISON. No; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison? + +Mr. JIMISON. I would just say the hospital--County Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of work do you do here? + +Mr. JIMISON. Orderly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, +"R. J. Jimison". + +Mr. JIMISON. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. "Orderly." And is that your full name? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what does the "R" stand for? + +Mr. JIMISON. That's just an initial name. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about the "J"? + +Mr. JIMISON. Same. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, people call you "R. J."? + +Mr. JIMISON. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. +Jimison? + +Mr. JIMISON. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport +patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day? + +Mr. JIMISON. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day? + +Mr. JIMISON. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor +Connally? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, +but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was--I +assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was he when you first saw him? + +Mr. JIMISON. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, +near room 4, where his operation was performed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5? + +Mr. JIMISON. He was taken in room--I thought it was room 4, but maybe +it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I +told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put +them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of +the elevator? + +Mr. JIMISON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. What floor were you on when you first saw him? + +Mr. JIMISON. I was on two. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him? + +Mr. JIMISON. I guess he must have been about 20 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where +you were? + +Mr. JIMISON. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the +clock that is overhead in the center there? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were there doctors around him at that time? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to---- + +Mr. JIMISON. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I +helped them take him off. + +Mr. SPECTER. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the +operating table? + +Mr. JIMISON. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the +table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to +get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got +free--whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there--they pushed it +back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with +it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it +on and pushed the door closed. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was on the stretcher at that time? + +Mr. JIMISON. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two +sheets as usual. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the position of the sheets? + +Mr. JIMISON. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out +on the bed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had they been rolled up? + +Mr. JIMISON. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the +mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it +would be just throwed about halfway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the sheets flat or just turned over? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, just turned over. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they crumpled up in any way? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly--a tragic +day. + +Mr. SPECTER. It was what? + +Mr. JIMISON. It was a tragic day. + +Mr. SPECTER. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of +it? + +Mr. JIMISON. We didn't look too close. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else on the stretcher? + +Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed anything else at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic +needles or an alcohol sponge? + +Mr. JIMISON. There could have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or a 1-inch roll of tape? + +Mr. JIMISON. There could have been something--small stuff, but nothing +large like bundles or anything like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said? + +Mr. JIMISON. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the +emergency area? + +Mr. JIMISON. Not close in the emergency area--that's the only one. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator? + +Mr. JIMISON. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up +there and remade and put in use again. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself? + +Mr. JIMISON. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact +is--the purpose is--we have enough to do up there, and we have men up +there to take care of that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? +Is that right? + +Mr. JIMISON. One of them--we put it on the elevator, then it becomes +the responsibility of the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator +later that day? + +Mr. JIMISON. Not during my shift. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the +elevator if there were one? + +Mr. JIMISON. No, I is not, but might near--I could might near see of +anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--I +could might near see all of the stretchers put on there. + +Mr. SPECTER. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in +your presence? + +Mr. JIMISON. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see +it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally +on the elevator? + +Mr. JIMISON. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know +exactly the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating +room, did you? + +Mr. JIMISON. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you get off that day? + +Mr. JIMISON. 3:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that +elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until +the end of the day? + +Mr. JIMISON. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the +emergency--from the emergency that we had from that time that he was +brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher? + +Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed any at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before +the court reporter came in to take this all down here today? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have I asked you questions and have you given me +answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition +started? + +Mr. JIMISON. (No response.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been +talking about since the court reporter came in? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the +Federal Government? + +Mr. JIMISON. Yes, I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was that? + +Mr. JIMISON. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that +happened--I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government. + +Mr. SPECTER. What branch was he from? + +Mr. JIMISON. I thought he was from the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret +Service? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what about? + +Mr. JIMISON. The same thing. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact? + +Mr. JIMISON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be +helpful to us? + +Mr. JIMISON. Well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well +covered--just, I actually want to give facts about something I know +something about, and during the time I know something about, and what +actually happened from the time I got off--I couldn't tell you, but I +do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked +up until I got off from duty. + +This ain't actually--not in it, but due to this--this is--what I'm +fixing to say is off of the book--I couldn't see after President +Kennedy because I didn't--I never did get up to the floor--so I didn't +see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming +in and helping us a lot. + +Mr. JIMISON. Same back to you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON + +The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, +at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court +reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the +oath, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these +proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, for the record? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding +is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by +the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination +of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, +which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination +of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland +Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or +anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either +one of those men. + +First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission +was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition +concerning this matter? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive +order creating the Commission? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the +creation of the President's Commission? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of +witnesses by members of the Commission's staff? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions +about what you observed or know about this matter? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather +than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was +yesterday? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial. + +Mr. SPECTER. It's immaterial to you? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial--it's at your convenience. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson. + +The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it +doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your +information today. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right +with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do +that; is that all right? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your capacity? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I am classed as the senior engineer. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what duties are involved in general? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, +which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the +building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to +the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the +second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. You mean just the general lay? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; please. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement +to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in +the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct +route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the +operating rooms on two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on +November 22, sometime around the noon hour? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you have to do with that elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, +the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the +elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a +mechanical difficulty of any sort? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it +isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and +they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground +floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, what were you to do with this elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that you would operate it in that way? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; make a manual operation out of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the +best of your recollection? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It was around 1 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher. + +Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you +will, please. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a +white covering on the pad. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but +I don't believe there was. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against +the south wall. + +Mr. SPECTER. On what floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. The ground floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already +there. + +(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have +made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few +minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which +you pushed off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating). + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" +right in the center of that? + +(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher +which was already on the first floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different +designation for the first floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, +second, and third on that elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. +That's our surgical suites up there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital +on? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of +the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the +ground floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator? + +Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present +at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) +I believe that's it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to +stretcher "B"? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, +but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's +room there in the elevator lobby. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" +stretcher. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a +general way? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"? + +(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.) + +Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use +the men's room? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get +in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the +stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where +we would have clear area in front of the elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled +out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat. + +Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B". + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I +didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east +end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end +and a sterile pack or so. + +Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what +they came from. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" +that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly +honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that +much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed +it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I +straightened out the stretcher up against the wall. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to +bring him down to the ground floor to get blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, +what do you mean by that? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had +some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you +rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the +wall at that time? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with +reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that +sort of thing? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on +the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the +four wheels. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed +steel. The majority of them have those. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I +placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take +down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we +not? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which +you have testified about, did we not? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your +recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was +it not? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. B. + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you +took off of the elevator. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started +our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take +it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which +came off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other +Federal representative? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who interviewed you about it? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one +was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Once. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Once. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about +the same thing we've gone over here. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more +detail here. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which +stretcher you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not +sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I +took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which +stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the +elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for +sure, I really don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret +Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean? + +Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure +whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the +elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, +whether it was A or B that I took off. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the +situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service +man and when you talked to the FBI man? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about +the same thing as you have told me today? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, +you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the +elevator car? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when---- + +Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing +off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and +brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency +area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it +was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to +the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took +off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't +know how many people went through that--I don't know how many people +hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them +in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I +discovered the bullet on the end of it there. + +Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you +took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just +can't be sure? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively +sure--I think it was A, but I'm not sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, +which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret +Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on +the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--I called that to your +attention, didn't I? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on +refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No; it really doesn't--it really doesn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first +started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher +you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that +the Secret Service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you +took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, +and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire +situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher +you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher +that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what +you told me before? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling +him definitely--I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could +have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know +where---- + +Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought +down from the second floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, +whether it was brought down from the second floor? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took +off. + +Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you +thought it was you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that--whether I absolutely made a +positive statement to that effect. + +Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the +elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you +took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A--I'm not really sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you +thought it was A that you took off of the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him +this or that. + +Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you +thought it was A or not? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to +being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they +are writing down everything, I mean. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are +saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best +recollection. + +We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like +November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every +other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, +and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so +does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going +to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found +on the elevator? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could +have come from three, it could have come from some other place. + +Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There +wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether +you sign this deposition at the end or not? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank +you very much. Those are all the questions I have. + +Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a +proposed exhibit.) + +Mr. SPECTER. On the record. + +Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am +having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and +will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one +which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and +B of the stretchers we have been discussing? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency. + +Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us? + +Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON + +The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March +24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following +a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. +During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, +it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of +value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the +General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken. + +Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts +relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, +and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your +knowledge of his presence here. + +Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the +Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of +testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today +without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes, I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the +President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss BOWRON. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron? + +Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly? + +Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other +area? + +Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas? + +Miss BOWRON. Since August 4, 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment +here at Parkland Memorial Hospital? + +Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a +year's contract and to work in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background? + +Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, +and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in +England. I finished in February of last year. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time? + +Miss BOWRON. Twenty two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President +Kennedy back on November 22, 1963? + +Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your +being called in to assist in that case? + +Miss BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery +area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the +intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so +the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and +I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the +cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being +brought forward at that time? + +Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the +OB--GYN section. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was +some one helping? + +Miss BOWRON. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? + +Miss BOWRON. Joe--I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I +know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher? + +Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett +took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name? + +Miss BOWRON. Bill. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher? + +Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and +we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. +We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were +moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to +try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart +and then took him straight over to trauma room 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's +condition when you first saw him? + +Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. +Connally but apparently--I didn't notice very much--I was more +concerned with the person in the back of the car--the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect +to President Kennedy's condition? + +Miss BOWRON. He was moribund--he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee +and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the +other side of the car I saw the condition of his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what? + +Miss BOWRON. The back of his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition? + +Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad--you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see? + +Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large +hole? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any? + +Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away +and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to +the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room +and she ran beside us. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there? + +Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you? + +Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it +was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is +assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the +I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when +the President arrived in the trauma area? + +Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? + +Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any? + +Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether +it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his +clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was +more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the +chest tube trays and the venesectron trays. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1? + +Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the +second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came +back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that +he was dead, they said. + +And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all +of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them +to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until +the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"? + +Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped +us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and +everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the +floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. +And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests +left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with +him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the +coffin. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being +treated? + +Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and--who else was there--there were so many. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names? + +Miss BOWRON. I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you +have already mentioned? + +Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. +Nelson--the supervisor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there? + +Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir--I don't know the name of any. + +Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did +you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck? + +Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards. + +Mr. SPECTER. Until after what? + +Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up +and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to +really take much notice. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed +the trach tube? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President +Kennedy's body from the stretcher? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir--I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the +stretcher? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was +removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma +room No. 1 on? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the +adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy? + +Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we +took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work +had been done on him--so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before +he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra +sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some +sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were +put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't +slip. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and +on floor area there? + +Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. All of them? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then? + +Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. +2, which was empty. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was +wheeled into trauma room No. 2? + +Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was +left on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that +stretcher? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it? + +Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of +newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron +Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4. + +(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. +2, 3, and 4, for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those +are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this +assassination day? + +Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared +in the newspapers, but they are not all my story. + +Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in? + +Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer". + +Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that +published in? + +Miss BOWRON. London. + +Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where? + +Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail--The Daily Mail". + +Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city? + +Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper. + +Mr. SPECTER. In England? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4? + +Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in? + +Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper. + +Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you +and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland? + +Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one--I think it was an Australian +paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and +which was the same as I think--as this one. + +Mr. SPECTER. BX-4? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared +about your participation in this event? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which +this information was obtained, if you know? + +Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been +two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she +told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to +the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell +them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, +and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out +to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they +finished, and that was all that I told them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be +some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only +child and my mother worries, so I called home the next--that night and +told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably +be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it +but they weren't to say anything that--except that I had been on duty +and that was all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the +Federal Government prior to today? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom? + +Miss BOWRON. I don't really know--he was an FBI agent. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when was that? + +Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him? + +Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked +us. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him? + +Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"? + +Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the +Federal Government prior to today? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition +and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before +we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have +put on the record here today? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be +helpful in any way to the Commission? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left +arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid +it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and +put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was +being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out +to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and +found this Mr. Wright. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day? + +Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.--I was just a few +feet behind him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance +to the Commission? + +Miss BOWRON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron. + +Miss BOWRON. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot. + +Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE + +The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March +21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in +today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The +Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. +Doris Nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some +information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has +not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of +the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony. + +Permit me to make those documents available to you. + +(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.) + +Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, +General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of +this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been +authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all +right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as +opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice +which you are entitled to if you want it? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your +deposition taken today? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give +before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was +on his way to the hospital? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it, if at all? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first +arrived at the site of the emergency room? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what? + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came +there? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital +itself? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance--no. It was after he came +into the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into +the emergency room No. 1? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him +when he had just come into the emergency area? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was +there very shortly after--afterwards. + +Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after +you did? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him +and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, +Dr. Carrico came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see--there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, +and you want all of them that were in the room? + +Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them. + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, +and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it +was. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when +you first saw him? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when +I saw him at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him--except his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole--I don't +remember seeing one that looked like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round--just a little round hole, +just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, +Miss Henchliffe? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down +there--I don't know how many a year. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency +room. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the +emergency room? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was +inserted. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was +pronounced to be dead? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then +undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the +coffin was brought. + +Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin. + +Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher--yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a +long---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal. + +Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber +covered mattress on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left +on the stretcher at that time? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty +syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up. + +Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up--where were they placed? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the +utility room. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure--there was probably about +two or three. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after +President Kennedy's body was removed? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there +was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been +placed under his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen +hamper. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was he? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders--is that his name? + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy +was on rolled into the room across the hall? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was that? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the +sheets still all on, or were they off at that time? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on +was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful +to the Commission? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and +the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you +have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to +take this down in shorthand? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay. + +(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the +deposing room.) + +(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the +deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss +Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go. + +Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything +special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like +most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen. + +Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle +was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which +encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient +knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be +consistent with an exit wound? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to +someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you +have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit +anything but soft tissue going through. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis +for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound +other than that source of information you just described, plus your +general experience here at Parkland as a nurse? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 +years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what other experience have you had besides emergency +room experience? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance +of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just +talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came +out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen. + +Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like +an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add? + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. + +Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON + +The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at +Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and +will you raise your right hand and take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mrs. NELSON. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing +to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide +whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received +by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial +Hospital on November 22, 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name? + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name? + +Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the +joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which +established the President's Commission? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of +the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members +of the Commission staff? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this +matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' +notice under the resolution? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession? + +Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room +at Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied? + +Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, +1963? + +Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the +treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures +with the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date +concerning injuries to President Kennedy? + +Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes +prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the +President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the +President's arrival? + +Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room +No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head +nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the +emergency room. + +Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that +trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a +bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been +injured? + +Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured. + +Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured +party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter? + +Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone +calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got +a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor +Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him +as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma +room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than +one stretcher taken out? + +Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out +at the time because I was not out at that area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher +was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was +President Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were you able to identify President Kennedy? + +Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him. + +Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see? + +Mrs. NELSON. The--mainly his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face? + +Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not +completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy--do you want me to tell +about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. +Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the +question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will +appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record +purposes. + +Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the +roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the +President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was +brought into the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken? + +Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him +in a medical way? + +Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time +that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of +surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. +Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of +neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour-- + +Mr. SPECTER. Spell, please. + +Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of +Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names +at the present time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where +President Kennedy was taken? + +Mrs. NELSON. When what? + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, +caring for him at any time? + +Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly +to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather +than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told +by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the +emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be +placed on from the stretcher? + +Mrs. NELSON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the +emergency room? + +Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring +a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a +stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the +patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency +room on. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the +time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher? + +Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President +Kennedy was on? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, +did you have occasion to observe that stretcher? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel +working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room +1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher? + +Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and +Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret +Henchliffe strip the stretcher? + +Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received +afterwards. + +Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report? + +Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the +emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken? + +Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to +trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the +two rooms with the Secret Service Police. + +Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the +time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all---- + +Mrs. NELSON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all? + +Mrs. NELSON. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time? + +Mrs. NELSON. It was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on +the floor or what? + +Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller-type table. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did--do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, +if anything, at that time? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said +that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they +had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so +I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic +mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the +casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not +see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, +and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was +around the mattress. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you? + +Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to +absorb the blood from the President's body? + +Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around +him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled +up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss +Henchliffe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located? + +Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of +the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on? + +Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally? + +Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very +short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had +chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen +given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to +the operating room accompanied by several doctors. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma +room No. 2? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room? + +Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss +Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. +I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her? + +Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge? + +Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name? + +Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried? + +Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor +Connally was on? + +Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type +of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic +mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between--on the sides, +so that the--I don't know how to explain exactly. + +Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect? + +Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was +resting? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher +that President Kennedy was brought in on? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement +which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, +Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit +in connection with this deposition. + +(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave +to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your +activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the +best of your knowledge, information and belief? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started +this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed +here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us. + +Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome. + +Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. +Doris Nelson.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute. + +Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement +here, that it is your statement? + +Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.) + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any +formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition? + +Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE + +The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March +25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen +Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have +his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is +concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital +to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally. + +Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price +and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the +President's Commission---- + +Mr. PRICE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of +witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken +without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the +taking of the deposition? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the +President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PRICE. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here? + +Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of +Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland +Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who +participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and +Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned +with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that +treatment? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical +records committee. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission +through Dr. Kemp Clark? + +Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, +some of the records were written in my office and since that time have +been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk +drawer. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as +"Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of +the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy +and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the +records which were made by the examining doctors? + +Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments +as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say +"Yes," or "No"? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that +those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day +informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, +which I will put on the deposition record here. + +Mr. PRICE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, +permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. +2. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, +for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter +which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's +private physician? + +Mr. PRICE. It is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed +at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark? + +Mr. PRICE. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the +corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President +arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 +scratched out? + +Mr. PRICE. That's correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask +the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah +McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file? + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, +for identification.) + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 +an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a +report in your possession? + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, +for identification.) + +Mr. PRICE. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins? + +Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking +at here? + +Mr. PRICE. It is. + +Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392? + +Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. +Kemp Clark. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in +this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. +Perry. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which +appears in Exhibit 392? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit +392? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's +statement? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be +Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your +file? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report? + +Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked +Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original +in your file? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is next? + +Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the +original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file? + +Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.) + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records +concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file? + +Mr. PRICE. With one exception--there is in the file that I have of +Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of +patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of +patients? + +Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave +this to you--the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5. + +Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. +Kennedy, and how should that have been marked? + +Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2? + +Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5? + +Mr. PRICE. The President should have been noted as No. 5. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, +for identification.) + +Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not +affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the +arrival there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally +and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have +photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the +operation performed by Dr. Shaw. + +Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical +charts that I have here. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that +record? + +Mr. PRICE. Here it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report +prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your +record on Governor Connally? + +Mr. PRICE. It is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. +Charles Gregory? + +Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded +to you--Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some +pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated +or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like? + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to +read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line +of getting a Xerox copy. + +Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct +photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report? + +Mr. PRICE. It is; it is a correct copy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going +to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9. + +(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. +6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being +marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll +ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have +made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by +various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, +and November 24. + +Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group? + +Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by +the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first +numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is +what? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the +emergency area. This is correct. + +The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox +copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve +Landregan. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital? + +Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator. + +Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things? + +Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement +to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment +over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our +outpatient clinic. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert +Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently +our evening administrator. + +(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, +for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, +who is administrative aide. + +Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, +our director of nursing service. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana +Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 13? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie +Lennon. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is her position? + +Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14. + +Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is +an R.N. in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15 + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean +Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16? + +Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the +emergency area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean +Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18. + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is +assigned to the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is +an orderly in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20. + +Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who +is a registered nurse in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, +who is an aide in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22. + +Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in +registration--a nurse. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22? + +Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an +aide in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in +the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24? + +Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill +Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an +orderly in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who +is an orderly in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in +the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28? + +Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette +Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the +personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports +from the individual guards under his supervision. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is +assigned to the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the +emergency room supervisor. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32? + +Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is +assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional +services of the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33? + +Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events +that transpired on November 24. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34? + +Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday +and Sunday, the 23d and 24th. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports +to you? + +Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of +individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in +the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were +requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities +would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of +the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is +a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was +altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record? + +Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology? + +Mr. SPECTER. Sure. + +Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it +appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to +signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make +clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries +who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to +be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when +what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed +at the time he read it and signed it. + +Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it +before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription. + +Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much +better than mine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price. + +Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, +Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate +custodian of the records. + +Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the +record had been altered here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right +on that. Thank you. + +Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH + +The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, +sir? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. COUCH. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please. + +Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas +to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent +you? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition +and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the +deposition--is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and +sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court +reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would +like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive +signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do. + +Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. Couch, where do you live? + +Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. And how old are you? + +Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five. + +Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through +high school? + +Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I +have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will +receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary. + +Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology +degree, to become a minister? + +Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or +not, but I will be ordained. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Any family at all? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday. + +Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume +your wife and baby are doing well? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college? + +Mr. COUCH. Social science. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch? + +Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school +part time---- + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and +part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957? + +Mr. COUCH. I went to college. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961? + +Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960. + +Mr. BELIN. January 1960? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school +here. + +Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with +WFAA-TV? + +Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I +worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and +H-e-r-n-d-o-n. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of +college other than those? + +Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the +camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September +1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there +2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with +this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in +Theology, you stopped working? + +Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from +college---- + +Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. + +Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course. + +Mr. BELIN. I see. + +Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you +whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to +whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of +President Kennedy to Dallas? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did +that day? + +Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the +airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride +with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a +reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity? + +Mr. COUCH. As a photographer. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both? + +Mr. COUCH. Moving only. + +Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade? + +Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward +downtown Dallas--is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to +Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle +Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar +Springs. I'm not sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when +you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets +you went on? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on +Main at the City Hall. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where? + +Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to +Houston? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember +offhand? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car +back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on +Main about how fast the motorcade was going? + +Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked +up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one +of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out +of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned +north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you +remember who was riding in the car with you? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob +Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. +Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I +don't know his name. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat? + +Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way +you were sitting in the back? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a +convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on +the seat. + +Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the +top of the back seat? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back. + +Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left? + +Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you +remember about how fast you were going? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the +turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were +clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the +other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving +fairly fast. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the +motorcade, that you remember? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles? + +Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going +down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. +As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. +As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; +sometimes they wouldn't. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you +described as a---- + +Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first +time we heard it--the first shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you +heard the first noise? + +Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of +Main onto Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn? + +Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn. + +Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further +on you heard the first shot--the first noise? + +Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I +was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't +know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard +the first shot. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say? + +Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; +uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, +but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess +from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And +then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a +gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front +of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings +at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. +Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly +close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one +could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel +that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard +the third shot? + +Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60 +feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a +motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made +your turn north onto Houston? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire +right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And +the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this +was another motorcycle backfiring. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there +anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that +you haven't related here at this time? + +Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first +shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember +turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual +for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And +after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, +yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" + +And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the +time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a +foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window. + +I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel. + +Mr. BELIN. In what building was that? + +Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know +how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that +time? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to +the top floor or the second to the top floor--or---- + +Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance +at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because +there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the +top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount. + +Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but---- + +Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it +was either the sixth or seventh floor? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"---- + +Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east. + +Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building? + +Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw +the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it +was a rifle? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on +the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, +you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw +an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything +of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and +what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic +sight on it? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the +window was open or halfway open or what? + +Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, +I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but +that was an impression. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you +remember--any boxes or anything like that? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you +definitely remember that you did not notice any? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the +building? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of +the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle +of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a +white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the +windows up above him. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the +building? + +Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the +moment. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone +else say anything in the car? + +Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or +anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn? + +Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our +car was facing the south side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his +exclamation and you saw what you just related? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my +hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and +made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you +can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start +the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As +I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas +Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see +about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete +the turn. + +And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, +or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository +Building itself? + +Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment. + +After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang +on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think +there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at +the very bottom of Elm Street---- + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, +one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down +underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who +wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out. + +And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to +the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the +crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building +entrance? + +Mr. COUCH. No--uh---- + +Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there? + +Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment +whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a +sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with +determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone +were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that +time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away? + +Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were +blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify +someone. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you +came back to take these pictures? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to +get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds +getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a +minute and a half. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the +area? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side +there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots +directed at the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and +shots such as this. + +Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been +pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these +pictures? + +Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing +south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at +the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park +area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository +property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that +little sidewalk. + +Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south? + +Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't +know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I +think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, +now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car +that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school +age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started +off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from +about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground +level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving. + +Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository +Building is concerned? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a +roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a +2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall. + +Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't +take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself +when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground +of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and +I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his +pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason +I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I +had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was +that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling] +L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said, +"You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm +going to go back--I'm going to follow the President." + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs +between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book +Depository property and the beginning of the parkway. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood +on the sidewalk. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. +Couch? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was that? + +Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads +up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book +Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west +and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book +Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes; right. + +Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter. + +Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or +not? + +Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching +it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it. + +Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and +ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression +was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around +that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen +had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those +shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was +a chase going on in that direction. + +Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, +and my first concern was to get back with the President. + +Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north +of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway? + +Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the +expressway? + +Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 +feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood? + +Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for +something. We thought there would be something else, but---- + +Mr. BELIN. There was nothing? + +Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----? + +Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along +with the phonetic sound. + +Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book +Depository? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be +wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures. + +Mr. BELIN. He did not take any? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south +side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front +entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination? + +Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine. + +Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine? + +Mr. COUCH. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before +any of this? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard +hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear +of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did +anyone ever tell you that? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall; +but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD---- + +Mr. BELIN. TV? + +Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, +I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the +building, coming around the east side going south, I presume. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he +actually saw this, or is this just hearsay? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than +hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you +have not related here? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No. + +Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states +that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted +about this--is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right. + +Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you +heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related +here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember +whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI +you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would +you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as +sometimes happens? + +Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; +even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about +timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's +a long time. + +Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of +time between shots? + +Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but +it could be from 3 to 5. + +Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second +shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been +a difference? + +Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were +relatively the same. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this +deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few +minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining +to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the +testimony that you have just given? + +Mr. COUCH. No; no. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in +great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to +relate the story to me? + +Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we +began. + +Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the +deposition--is that correct? + +Mr. COUCH. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked +about--is that right? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time +which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination +of President Kennedy? + +Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to +come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you +to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down +here. We appreciate it very much. + +Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're +still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, +but I had better ask it again. + +When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you +see at first? + +Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it. + +Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time +you saw it being withdrawn? + +Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45째 angle westward--which would be pointing +down Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there? + +Mr. COUCH. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45째 angle" would that be up or down, or +are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and +south? + +Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45째 angle downward +pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction? + +Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the +building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more +southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, +I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was +sticking straight out the window, so to speak. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun? + +Mr. COUCH. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that +on the record. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD + +The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. State your name. + +Mr. DILLARD. Tom C. Dillard. + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please? + +Mr. DILLARD (Complying). + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. DILLARD. I do. + +Mr. BALL. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You +have already been requested to be present have you not---- + +Mr. DILLARD. By letter; yes. + +Mr. BALL. By letter which you received last week? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. DILLARD. I am a photographer. + +Mr. BALL. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you +questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning +the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, +Tex. + +Mr. DILLARD. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief +photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but +my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I +do outside work for the paper on photographic work. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. DILLARD. I'm 49. + +Mr. BALL. What has been your general education? + +Mr. DILLARD. High school, very few college courses. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. DILLARD. High school and very few college courses. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. DILLARD. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the +old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the +Military and Air University. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the paper? + +Mr. DILLARD. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star +Telegram, went to work in 1929. + +Mr. BALL. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years? + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started +at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and +whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed +President Kennedy, weren't you? + +Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six +in the line. + +Mr. BALL. Did you meet the President at Love Field? + +Mr. DILLARD. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into +Dallas? + +Mr. DILLARD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in your car? + +Mr. DILLARD. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV +and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the +Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and +did you have information his name is Couch? + +Mr. BALL. That's right; and the man that drove---- + +Mr. DILLARD. Channel 5--Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of +the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet +convertible. + +Mr. BALL. Your car was about sixth, was it? + +Mr. DILLARD. I believe. + +Mr. BALL. From the President's car? + +Mr. DILLARD. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the +airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. +We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably +know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and +certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. +In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was +in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature. + +Mr. BALL. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the +President's car in sight at that time? + +Mr. DILLARD. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could +only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high +rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the +people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which +pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very +poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade +started. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made +the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston? + +Mr. DILLARD. It had. + +Mr. BALL. It had? + +Mr. DILLARD. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I +say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you sitting in the car? + +Mr. DILLARD. I was sitting in the right front. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in the front seat with you? + +Mr. DILLARD. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside +me--no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember +what our locations were. + +Mr. BALL. But you know you were in the right front? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on +Houston? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that +I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a +torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go +ahead---- + +Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story. + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, +estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my +comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very +distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire." + +Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear? + +Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced. + +Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with +reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first +explosion? + +Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it +seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down +so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn +when I heard the first explosion. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything? + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They +killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson--there was some +running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and +we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School +Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said, +"There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera +ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were +several open windows and I scanned the building. + +Mr. BALL. Which building? + +Mr. DILLARD. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my +camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the +third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and +then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and +I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with +one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a +two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm. +which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those +pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras. + +Mr. BALL. You shot how many pictures? + +Mr. DILLARD. Two pictures. + +Mr. BALL. With one camera or two different cameras? + +Mr. DILLARD. Two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily +photo, but twice the normal lens. + +Mr. BALL. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready? + +Mr. DILLARD. Hung around my neck and held in my hand. + +Mr. BALL. You brought them up and focused and shot? + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of +buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of +course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly--in a +very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, +so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is +covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to +get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and +so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual +thing in the parade that I noticed was the President--I understand the +President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the +near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that +said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of +the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to +get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable +to get up that far. + +Mr. BALL. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book +Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say? + +Mr. DILLARD. From the window or from the---- + +Mr. BALL. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement +along the street. + +Mr. DILLARD. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of +Elm and Houston Streets. + +Mr. BALL. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give +me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your +camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture? + +Mr. DILLARD. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything in the windows? + +Mr. DILLARD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see a rifle barrel? + +Mr. DILLARD. No. + +Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures or forms in the window? + +Mr. DILLARD. Only in the windows which was the windows below. + +Mr. BALL. How many forms did you see in the windows below? + +Mr. DILLARD. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. +I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were +covering. + +Mr. BALL. You saw them as you were taking the picture? + +Mr. DILLARD. I may have; I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures? + +Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate? + +Mr. DILLARD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Your car stopped where? + +Mr. DILLARD. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston +Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I +know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying +on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the +plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out +and I don't know what happened. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you go out? + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under +the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation +in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or +anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay around there? + +Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps 2 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. DILLARD. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by +with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we +started--I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons +Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew +and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I +never saw the Presidential car. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of +the explosions--what direction it was coming from? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming +from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a +great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of +high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns. + +Mr. BALL. You have had experience with rifles? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with +the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of +reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction +but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was +facing north toward the School Depository--I might add that I very +definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it. + +Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind. + +Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. I +mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you mention it to? + +Mr. DILLARD. Bob, I'm sure. + +Mr. BALL. Bob Jackson? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it. + +Mr. BALL. You developed your pictures, didn't you? + +Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you turn them over? + +Mr. DILLARD. I printed them. + +Mr. BALL. You printed them? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or +not. I may have. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back +from the hospital. + +Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two +pictures you had taken? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have---- + +Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was +more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle +fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three +shots. + +Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession? + +Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the +managing editor's office. + +Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can +identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do +this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those +negatives? + +Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Off-record discussion.) + +Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print +made from your negatives, is that satisfactory? + +Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized. + +Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy +to this deposition. + +Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other. + +Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a +wide lens? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens? + +Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same. + +Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two +pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell +me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that +day. + +Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on +November 22. + +Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each +negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, +is that correct? + +Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it +part of this deposition--just on the back? + +Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These +two are prints from one of my negatives. + +Mr. BALL. That will be all right. + +Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative. + +Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of? + +Mr. DILLARD. If you wish. + +Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement +to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of +November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise +which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said---- + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Off-record discussion.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, +you realized it was gunfire? + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that +upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped +almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. DILLARD. My car? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim +"I see a rifle; it's up in the open window". + +Mr. DILLARD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository +located at Elm and Houston Streets? + +Mr. DILLARD. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle +protruding from any window? + +Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle. + +Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs? + +Mr. DILLARD. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives? + +Mr. DILLARD. That's true. + +Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave +the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of +3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I +was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building? + +Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this? + +Mr. DILLARD. Sure. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD + +The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on +April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn? + +(Complying.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood. + +Mr. BALL. Your occupation? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in +Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the +Presidential motorcade? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose +name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning +News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now---- + +Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas +Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from +WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it. + +Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the +department of public safety. + +Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of +which is news photographer. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you +go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for +your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about +yourself. + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in +the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that +I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began +working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I +got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 +and I became program director and news director of a radio station in +Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station +in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news +director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and +a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television +and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count +for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958 +when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter +I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I +still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and +I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including +photography which I enjoy doing. + +Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade +with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind +the Presidential car? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound +on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at +Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off +the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera +because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell +out there because of the many people I could not tell what position +we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where +we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. +The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and +I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward +the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade +immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting +to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, +I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind +him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street +downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination +took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke +and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two +men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming +the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera +for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that +would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly +it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on +the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I +tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and +I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that +rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a +crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came +to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on? + +Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you +made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston. + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in +was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block +or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short +block, when I heard the first shot. + +Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm +intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot +fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired +but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a +reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one +of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I +was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a +second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized +that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were +coming from overhead. + +Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be +from what source? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository +Building. + +Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a +loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something +had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in +stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School +Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car +stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in +the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the +window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with +their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, +to determine where the shots were coming from. + +Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did +hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at +that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not. + +Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of +Elm and Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make +the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same +time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass +and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground +had been shot. + +Mr. BALL. Did your car stop? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out +of the car. + +Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the +intersection, turned onto Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, +and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and +Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only +thought I had was to get a camera. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get one? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our +man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He +was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and +that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been +turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just +around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, +"Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I +assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When +I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running +up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas +School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only +thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in +that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running +also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and +took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and +they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time +breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I +am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who +they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of +the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the +building. + +Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could +recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was +there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you +need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to +shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving +of what happened. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in +the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas +School Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Which entrance? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance. + +Mr. BALL. On Elm? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some +pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the +building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a +three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last +name I remember as Eunice. + +Mr. BALL. Euins? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand +when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had +seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. +He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over +and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were +arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked +this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." +I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." +I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I +asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I +thought his name was Eunice. + +Mr. BALL. Was he about 15? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I +would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in +the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving +and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one +firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general +film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see +any face in it that would have been important to this. + +Mr. BALL. Leaving the building? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers +arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, +that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January +when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, +around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next +10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned +several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was +taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with +ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and +they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the +building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots +were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort +was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and +you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish. + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD + +The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April +1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson. + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, +by the way? + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand? + +Mr. CRAWFORD (complying). + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this +Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear. + +Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been +authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as +you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you +observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court +reporter? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk. + +Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did +you not, requesting you to give this testimony? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I did. + +Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not +receive it until Monday. + +Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas. + +Mr. BALL. What was your general education? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. +& M. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of +your occupations? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have +been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here +in Dallas until I went with the county. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years. + +Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where +were you? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the +corner of Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BALL. You went with whom? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell. + +Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me. + +Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk. + +(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.) + +Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building. + +Mr. BALL. What street? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim? + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's +Elm. + +Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of---- + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Elm and---- + +Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record. + +Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office +would be considered on Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want +the direction of the intersection? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse. + +Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast +corner of the intersection? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from +where you were standing? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection. + +Mr. BALL. Directly across? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure +of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I did. + +Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after +that? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car +leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and +followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the +Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were +open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner +that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a +backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have +been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the +President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot +followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and +followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's +car---- + +Mr. BALL. At that time? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service +car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third +shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if +there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff +of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile +and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east +corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was +open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a +glimpse. + +Mr. BALL. Which window? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window---- + +Mr. BALL. On the---- + +Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I +turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots +they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the +quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the +report. + +Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a +movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way +of color or size of what you saw moving? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a +profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement +and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either +light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was +found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, +simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it +was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet +or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe +it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were +stacked just like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the +window. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast +corner? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and +I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we +should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had +been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going +on the street--I thought our best information would come from that, +so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no +way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a +minute. + +Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something +light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like +a profile of a person? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw +it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a +person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown +haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that. + +Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not. + +Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on +the 10th of January? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any +impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound +came, the sound of the explosions? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought +it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill +toward the underpass. + +Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it +later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other +people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was +reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to +me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not +the sharp crack. + +Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was +being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers +or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such +a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, +where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole +area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm +Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the +time, rather than observing things in the street, probably. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those +were shots, they came from that window"? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely +sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I +was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this +quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the +shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them. + +Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly +behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the +far east corner. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could +walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly +under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had +not been anyone apprehended. + +Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up +to Allen Swett and talked to him? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 +minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you +said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted +Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen +in the sixth floor window? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell +him to search those windows, I think. + +Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you +told Allen Swett? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to +have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that +window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, +I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the +conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much. + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this? + +Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL + +The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold +up your right hand. + +(Complying.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before +this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk. + +Mr. BALL. For Dallas County? + +Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court? + +Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the +district courts. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born, +where were you raised, what schools did you go to? + +Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, +about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in +1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas +and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial +and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of +Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then. + +Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of +the District Court of Dallas County? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you? + +Miss MITCHELL. About noontime? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon. + +Mr. BALL. Working? + +Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records +Building. + +Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the +parade that morning? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade +since we are in the basement. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building? + +Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Whom were you with? + +Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the +building. + +Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets? + +Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I +was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner? + +Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's +probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions. + +Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way---- + +Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from +the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; +that would put you on the southeast corner. + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the +building. + +Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner +of the intersection, is that right? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard +after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you +hear? + +Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I +watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately +behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of +them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after +the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see +over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned +back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, +and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was +riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there +were three--the second and third being closer together than the first +and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a +firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police +officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third +report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as +I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from +that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the +people in the cars. + +Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were +shots--what were his words exactly? + +Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said, +"Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody +could have figured out by then that they were shots. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows? + +Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters +that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember +whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and +where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which +window he thought he was pointing to. + +Mr. BALL. Was he pointing? + +Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to +figure out exactly where he was. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything? + +Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because +I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start +pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking +at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling +around and then I went back in the office. + +Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again? + +Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again. + +Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply +to what Mr. Crawford said? + +Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did. + +Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his? + +Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when +he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't +remember if he said anything else. + +Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes +here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here. + +Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I +can what other people were. + +Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said? + +Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, +my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right. + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of +here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers +could work better. + +Mr. BALL. That's when you left? + +Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the +office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get +back in very fast. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it +and sign it or do you want to waive signature? + +Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short +time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when +the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in +the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was +coming so we could go outside. + +Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will +write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you? + +Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND + +The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs. + +Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland. + +Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify +before the Commission in Washington, is that correct? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later. + +Mr. BELIN. In the fall? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation +Co., or corporation, I don't know which. + +Mr. BELIN. What does he do? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor. + +Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18. + +Mr. BELIN. When were you married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon. + +Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi. + +Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and +Arizona, and I don't know where else. + +Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. +I think he worked in a cafe. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one +or two semesters. + +Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school? + +Mrs. ROLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep +working, or does he plan to go back to school? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when. + +Mr. BELIN. To finish high school? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that +you know of? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon +State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that +you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your major? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. English. + +Mr. BELIN. If you had one? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish. + +Mr. BELIN. All three? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school. + +Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring +in? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and +D's, I think, in other subjects. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe +him. + +Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report +cards. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's. + +Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more +background information. After you were married, were you employed at +all or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season +this year, this past year. + +Mr. BELIN. Other than that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a +dry goods store. + +Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you +were married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,---- + +Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, +we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like +that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron +Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and---- + +Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. In September. + +Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he +work first at one place and then---- + +Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't +like it. + +Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant. + +Mr. BELIN. As what? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly +what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a +department store. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he do there? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook. + +Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he +got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job +as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., +and he worked there until a few days before we left. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza +Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone +solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, +and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a +telephone solicitor. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did +he work there, approximately? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about +two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about +4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't +very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I +guess. + +Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you +doing? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, +too. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to +school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job +was only part-time---- + +Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Both. + +Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit? + +Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we +officially dropped afterwards. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the +assassination, where were you? + +Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of +the records building between Elm and Main Streets. + +Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home. + +Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about +when to when? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that +morning when we got up, and we walked part way---- + +Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. +We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too +late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what +time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and +about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about +the man up in the window. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus? + +Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess. + +Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times +very well. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did +you do? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand +waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you +figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many +minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45. + +Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus +around 11:15 or so? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you +got it? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was +about, I guess, 20 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home +shortly before 11? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, +waiting for the motorcade? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the +motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the +park. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side. + +Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records +building. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an +elevator there, too. + +Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street +fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's +visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about +security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the +School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't +see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking +about at first. + +And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently +stepped back, because I didn't see him. + +Mr. BELIN. Which window was it? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window. + +Mr. BELIN. As you face the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the +western part of the south side? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. West. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows. + +Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband +say to you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man. + +Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he +was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the +motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told +you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was +what it was. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security +officer? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear +glasses? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people +hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man +was standing in the background. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, +because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was +holding the rifle at a port arms position. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was +tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then +he was thin. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he +had seen a hat, I think he would have said so. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by +that he saw this? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light +colored shirt or jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other +windows? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other +windows or leaning out? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment. + +Mr. BELIN. Later on? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the +windows. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any +women. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and +nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center. + +Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think +was the fourth floor? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people +watching, I am not sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the +fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth +floor? + +Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look +back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I +grabbed his hand and started running toward the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your +husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, +which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how +much longer did you look back up at the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. After that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the +motorcade came by? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of +time? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking +back for the purpose of seeing the man. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the +motorcade came until the time it came? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about +some men who were carrying cameras. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or +standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was +to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book +Depository Building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. What was he doing? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking. + +Mr. BELIN. Talking to you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the +building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the +street or at the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Or at anything? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically +remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything +about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the +man with the rifle? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened +afterward. I mean it was just---- + +Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was +passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, +and that is about all. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green +suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not +sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports +jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. +I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but +it is more of a raincoat. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he +doesn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened +prior to the time the motorcade came by? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the +motorcade went by? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or +maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, +because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as +her dress. + +And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that +is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and +waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't +recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it +might be a firecracker. + +And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more +shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than +the first and second, what did you mean? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first +and second. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came +from or the sound? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad +tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally +assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen +and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from. + +Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen +in the window? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might +have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything +about the man. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run +to? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman +wouldn't let anybody go further. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had +happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman +inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a +pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he +gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in +the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the +records building. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police +officer? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was +wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And +then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't +know who they were. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you +stay with your husband? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had +glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I +think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and +he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said +there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he +didn't say there were three shots. + +Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, +and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us +questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time. + +Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written +statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came +in, three other witnesses who come in. + +There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police +and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the +people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband +said? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. +Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color +the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, +I think. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else. + +Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept +any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he +saw this man with the gun? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean he---- + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in +the windows of the School Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other +people looking out the windows. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on +that same floor looking out the windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there +weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that +could be seen from the outside. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, +because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time +you saw the man with the rifle? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, +but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, +because I can't just stand and stare in one direction. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you +were glancing at other places? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember +whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the +motorcade? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor +were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking +out at an open window. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember? + +Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw +looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't. + +Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth +floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any +time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon +of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the +building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows +on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they +were never open. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of +any other windows on the sixth floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did +not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other +people on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how +many people he said he saw looking out of the windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking +out of some windows in the same building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband +said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book +Depository Building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a +newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead. + +From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in +to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in +a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he +saw because the man he saw was dark-haired. + +Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the +blond-haired man? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. +I am not certain. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book +Depository Building? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning? + +Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was +before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she +came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun +in a rifle case. + +Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown +carrying a gun in a rifle case? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they +said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe +they also said he was a blond man. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what +they said, and that is all I know. + +Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your +husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right +now? Anything else that your husband said? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we +went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home +and he went to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he working? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went +to work, and I caught a bus and went home. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The +bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, +until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do +you know, or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time +during that day by any law enforcement agency? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day. + +Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or +that Sunday? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you +contacted by some law enforcement agency? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally? + +Mr. BELIN. You personally. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four +times, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the +Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday. + +Mr. BELIN. The 24th? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not +positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following +Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my +mother's home, and I am not positive how many times. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was +contacted? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, +November 24th? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the +police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was +in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him +specific questions about it and he answered them. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on +that written statement? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him +telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you +remember him telling them anything? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in +the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it +was correct, to the best of his knowledge. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that +statement that should be? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any +other windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any +people in any other windows? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police +officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he +saw? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth +floor, in my presence, that I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. At times. + +Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was +with the police officers? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on +the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another +man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative +question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the +question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your +husband had with any law enforcement agency? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him +that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington. + +Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he +got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in +front of the Commission? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you +came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said +in front of the Commission? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how +many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I +mean all inclusive. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to +go to Washington? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that +week, do you know how many interviews he had? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on +the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in +the southwest corner window? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw +anyone else on the sixth floor? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being +questioned too much by any law enforcement agency? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave +was not taken down? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law +enforcement agencies? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas +Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in +there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Like what? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he +said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me. + +Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he +have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret +Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part +of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that +you knew different, because you had seen the report card. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average. + +Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but +some of his cards didn't have A's altogether. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and +some D's? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than +others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony +of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just +from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything +that your husband says? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any +wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but---- + +Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that +answer it? + +Mr. BELIN. I think it does. + +Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything +other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say +that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than +he is, something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to +embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth +floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can +to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been +asking these questions. + +You and I have never met before? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember. + +Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we +started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your +deposition, did we? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your +husband? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained +about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are +concerned? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police +officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, +and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was, +if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't +complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about +anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in +any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever +see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. +Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I +don't know if my husband ever saw it or not. + +But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination +that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't +think he has. If he has, he never told me. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You +have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland. + +One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read +what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign +it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it +and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington. + +Do you care to come down to read it? + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would. + +Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read +it and make any corrections, if you like. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it +rewritten in better English? + +Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, +Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By +corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might +not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will +have to look down their noses at us. + +Thank you. + +Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER + +The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April +1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise +your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FISCHER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name? + +Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer. + +Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer? + +Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor. + +Mr. BELIN. For whom? + +Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor. + +Mr. BELIN. And where do you work? + +Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building. + +Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building? + +Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas? + +Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, +Elm, and Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer? + +Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Children? + +Mr. FISCHER. Two. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to? + +Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you +graduated from high school? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is that? + +Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at +Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually +attended the school? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school? + +Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night +school. + +Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington? + +Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been +working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a +correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but +you are taking the correspondence course also? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's +office? + +Mr. FISCHER. Five years. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, +1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, +the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not? + +Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a +college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I +believe. I don't know the name of the college. + +Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h? + +Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of +employment on that day to watch the motorcade? + +Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a +quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go +ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in +other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on +down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the +parade was over. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until +about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5 +or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside +the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to +find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston +and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade +came by. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and +Elm--approximately? + +Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20. + +Mr. BELIN. 12:20? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest +corner of Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in +front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the +sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we +were standing right on the curb there. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the +actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not? + +Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the +shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see +it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. +We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have +just looked down the street and seen it. + +Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which +would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make +the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct? + +Mr. FISCHER. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on +that curb? + +Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of +the parade came around the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that? + +Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen +any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before +the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look +at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He +looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something. + +And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 +seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of +Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the +corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started +watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, +because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't +watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He +looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple +underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all +the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never +moved anything. Just was there transfixed. + +Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man? + +Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in +the fifth or sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this +you saw him in? + +Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in? + +Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the +front of the building, it would have been to your right. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, +south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this +have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building? + +Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was +it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, +or the west part of the south side? + +Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would +it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the +third, or the fourth--or what? + +Mr. FISCHER. First window. + +Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe +his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see? + +Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the +top of his head. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he +was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a +little forward. + +And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been +a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, +I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a +short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color. + +Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light +complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair? + +Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; +possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it +was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding +hair-line--or couldn't you tell? + +Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, +because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see +of his head. His hair must have been short and not long. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a +profile of it, or what was it? + +Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I +believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what +direction he was looking at? + +Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple +underpass. + +Mr. BELIN. Down what street? + +Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Down Elm? + +Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands? + +Mr. FISCHER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window? + +Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from +the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It +looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him +because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the +window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like +there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and +the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there +that you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't +remember seeing any others. + +Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or +that you just do not remember seeing any? + +Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto +Houston from Main--is that correct? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window? + +Mr. FISCHER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window? + +Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the +motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be +going? + +Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was +in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he +was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what happened? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn +and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up +onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all +the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I +started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other +cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. +And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or +anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot +rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody +started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot. + +At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, +there must have been just three. + +Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a +firecracker, too? + +Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like +the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles +fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the +sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much +like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a +firecracker. And I knew it was a shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before? + +Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a +firecracker or what? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting +at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone +would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was +shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a +real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from? + +Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School +Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there +were some railroad cars back in there. + +Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I +couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and +up the hill. + +Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart? + +Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. +And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the +second and the third? + +Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were +evenly spaced. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the +shots? + +Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running +down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there +were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When +the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, +some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and +then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and +then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to +the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where +the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were +a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was +on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the +triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and +two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man +said at that time that the President had been shot. + +And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up +to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, +thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed +to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars +and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these +passenger--freight cars were. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then? + +Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we +work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And +that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think +he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. +After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there +for a little while and---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the +records building do you feel? + +Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot +was fired. Something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the +front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way +we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the +south side of Elm, and then crossed. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming +out of the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; +but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records +building--and then what did you do? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our +office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then +I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a +radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet +that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was +trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen. + +And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or +10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a +radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still +nobody knew anything. + +Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till +1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the +window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book +Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives +in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the +shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the +shooting--or something was wrong with the building. + +So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the +only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with +the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do +with it. + +About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me +if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff +Decker wanted to see me in his office right now. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now? + +Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office? + +Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in +there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at +least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both +been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of +the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get +me--because he had told them. + +There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people. +They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I +noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two +boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit +the ground when the shots started. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to +be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell? + +Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the +floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that +back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like +he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but +I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box +maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a +straight-up position? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell? + +Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell, +but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the +window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been +hard for me to see him at all. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at +the sheriff's office--is that it? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an +individual and ask you to try and identify him? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee +Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say? + +Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man? + +Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that +I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I +was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that +I gave--but I can't say for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the +picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked +like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know +whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School +Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have +seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would +have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his +complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the +window or not--or don't you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back +in the shadow of the window. + +Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the +same day or on the next day? + +Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't +remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I +don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different +between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the +window? + +Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the +color of the hair was of the man in the picture? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it +was definitely brown. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?" + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are +a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. +It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I +can't think of anything to compare it to. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to +have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair +did he have? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't +have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been +a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown +and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade +of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture +but---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at +least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like +it's your signature? + +Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition +Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be +dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in +that statement that does not appear to be accurate. + +(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is +identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.) + +Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now? + +Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me +when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement +that doesn't appear to be accurate. + +Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be +in his twenties--is that what you told them? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told +me here today that you could see his chest? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his +shoulders. + +Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter +in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about +12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people +there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like +I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his +head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his +head. + +Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he +had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed? + +Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. +He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean +black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I +said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that, +but--uh. + +Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"? + +Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like +I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark. + +Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean? + +Mr. FISCHER. Black. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your +recollection, what color hair did he have? + +Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one +way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too +hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, +just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it +wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that +as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or +whatever you call it--I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you +remember how far the window was open? + +Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all +the way open. + +Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way +open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case +that is open. Is that correct? + +Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening +covered by glass. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area? + +Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window +that raised from the bottom up. + +Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or +fully open? + +Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see +the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his +shoulders. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a +tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at +about the time you saw the man? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building? + +Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have +been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember +very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in +the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a +mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed +by the FBI. Do you remember that? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building. + +Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or +not? + +Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems +like he did. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of +the pictures? + +Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they +did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it +could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, +or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture? + +Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him +because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look +like to me. + +Mr. BELIN. What about his build? + +Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat; +whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a +low forehead--or do you remember? + +Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I +don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you +whether he had a large forehead or not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that +window when you saw him? + +Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in +the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred +feet. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have +told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the +motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds +before you first saw the motorcade? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you +saw the motorcade? + +Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I +don't remember saying that but. + +Mr. BELIN. But what is the---- + +Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before. + +Mr. BELIN. Shortly? + +Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds +or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or +two before you saw the motorcade? + +Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less +than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I +turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that +bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that +you haven't related here? + +Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"? + +Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the +first time--is that correct? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before +we started taking your testimony on the record? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me +your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried +to, in any way, lead you--or so forth? + +Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events +happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or +anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we +started taking the deposition that has not been included in this +deposition--that you can think of? + +Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I believe that ends the deposition. + +I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We +appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate +your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for +letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please? + +Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS + +The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April +9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, +please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Your name, please? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College. + +Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior. + +Mr. BELIN. You are a senior. + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked +here in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College. + +Mr. BELIN. For a year? + +Mr. EDWARDS. One year. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla. + +Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient. + +Mr. BELIN. Main Street? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell +you. + +Mr. BELIN. Harwood? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Record? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street? + +Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that +correct? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer. + +Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For +a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then +we left. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go? + +Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would +be Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Houston? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the +little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, +facing the Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now. + +Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is +Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you +mean? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't +it? Houston comes this way? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. +Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here. + +I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on +this map? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow +pointing north, so Houston runs north and south. + +Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse? + +Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is +Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas +School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right +there? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of +the map? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to +the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the +parkway, is that right? + +You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, +and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going +in the parkway, is that correct? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's +see if I can show you a picture. + +Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. +You see it right here? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there. + +Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on +the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into +the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction +toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just +a guess. + +Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We +would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly +sure about it. + +What did you do when you got to this point? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas +School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be +looking at the south side of the building? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was +up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in +among boxes. + +Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the +building to your right or to your left? + +Mr. EDWARDS. To my right. + +Mr. BELIN. How near the corner? + +Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window. + +Mr. BELIN. The corner window there? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white +man or a Negro? + +Mr. EDWARDS. White man. + +Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck. + +Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees +up, or what? + +Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin +or what, if you could tell? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown. + +Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did +you look and see any? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on +the floor above? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth +floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Third floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly. + +Mr. BELIN. Second floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. First floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's +department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the +fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a +stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't +see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that +back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather +than the fifth floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I +didn't count the bottom floor. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you +didn't count the bottom floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out +the window? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor? + +Mr. EDWARDS. They did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, +average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about +this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was +hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a +joking manner. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few +things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at +him, both of us. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just +start looking somewhere else? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else. + +Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald +Fischer said? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said +four, then I thought I heard four. + +Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better +introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do +you think the shots came from? + +Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea. + +Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come +from the building there. Did you really say that or not? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of? + +Mr. EDWARDS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an +opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and +sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it +will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes +no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and +signing. + +Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then? + +Mr. EDWARDS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL + +The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March +24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present +at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and +give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. + +May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is +investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we +have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if +anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand +you were on the scene or nearby at that time. + +May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under +date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask +you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the +President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. HILL. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state +your full name for the record? + +Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964? + +Mrs. HILL. I have it here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I +must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I +got it Saturday. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is +present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. +Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and +that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed +from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill? + +Mrs. HILL. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about +noontime? + +Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School +Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the +underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza? + +Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the---- + +Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded +forward? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. +Hill? + +Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been +walking up and down and back and forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that? + +Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture. + +Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade +passed by? + +Mrs. HILL. You mean---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just +tell me in your own way what happened. + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures +with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had +only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a +picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the +camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he +drew even with us. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean? + +Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I +jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take +your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and +Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car +looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the +roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because +there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I +know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I +yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me +and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on +the ground and of course there were more shots. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether? + +Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There +were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or +just a moment's pause, and then I heard more. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of +what you described as the first three shots? + +Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those +three shots? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the +first three shots? + +Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps +six, but I know there were more than three. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the +very last shot, will you estimate? + +Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on +the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just +immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third +shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, +they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, +so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the +shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and +then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots. + +Mrs. HILL. In what way? + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time +lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the +second to the third, or in that manner? + +Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I +mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again +or whatever you do with a gun. + +Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action? + +Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done +with the type gun that they say the assassinator used. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your +understanding? + +Mrs. HILL. A bolt action. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, +then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those? + +Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was +different. + +Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence? + +Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected? + +Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear +it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. +I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or +6. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard? + +Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than +that? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you +recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you? + +Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, +like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands +were like this (indicating). + +Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap? + +Mrs. HILL. No--not really. + +Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands? + +Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was +like this [indicating]. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his +left? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the +first shot? + +Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise +his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a +bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally +at that exact second? + +Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't +know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was +riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess +my story is probably colored by what I have heard. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that +colored your story? + +Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots +hit where and everything. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit +Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill? + +Mrs. HILL. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard? + +Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. +Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see +Mrs. Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see +him and I knew that someone had been hit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he +between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was +he? + +Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy? + +Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that +there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in +the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the +jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, +two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward? + +Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, +familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the +people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the +Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on +the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time? + +Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall? + +Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with +the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill? + +Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit +because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit +later. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally +appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard? + +Mrs. HILL. The second. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the +second shot? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit +someone in the front part of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot? + +Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted +his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to +my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair +standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that? + +Mrs. HILL. On the third shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third +shot? + +Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again. + +Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you +believe you heard? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took +the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and +I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because +I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents +shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot +back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, +they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you +heard the fourth shot? + +Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots +rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it +couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just +a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost +stunned. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you +think the President's car was? + +Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further +than a few feet--further down. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the +fifth and perhaps the sixth shot? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events +were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth +shots which you have testified about? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on +the ground. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you? + +Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the +ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there +was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and +I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure +there was just a slight pause before things started moving again. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started +moving again? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the +car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I +ran across the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. To the---- + +Mrs. HILL. Other side. + +Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away +or walking away or something--I would say he was running. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him? + +Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at +the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right +up on the slope at the top of the slope. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository +Building? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the west end? + +Mrs. HILL. More to the west end. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building +and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point +or farther east than the westernmost point? + +Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting +with Houston Street---- + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well. + +Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing +here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the +questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking +Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves +down in the manner that I am drawing and marking. + +Mrs. HILL. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large +building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter +"A" where you were at the time the President went by? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X". + +Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of +the street? + +Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, +but he was past the center of the street and we were---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A". + +Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us. + +Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.] + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the +President's car went by? + +Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a +little way, and I ran behind here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran. + +Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just +right--but I ran approximately right up through here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on +the other side of the street. + +Mrs. HILL. These steps. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the---- + +Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, +there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or +whatever you call it. + +Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side---- + +Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it? + +Mrs. HILL. The east of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School +Book Depository Building? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were +when you first saw that man? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where +he was? He was very close to you? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any +space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is +shown here. + +Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going? + +Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks +to the west? + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything? + +Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him? + +Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other +people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what +I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I +even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even +connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is +part of my recollection, I am just stating it again. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your +attention to him beside the fact that he was moving? + +Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it? + +Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's +hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front? + +Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning +and going to the west. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time? + +Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see +him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands. + +Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been +visible, wouldn't they? + +Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any +recollection of seeing his hands? + +Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have +been in the position where they could have been observed? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon +in either hand? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw +him? + +Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"? + +Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the +reason why I went across the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot. + +Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved? + +Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him. + +Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never +did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the +street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me +turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all +around. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at +him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, +and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there +and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I +was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some +red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is +embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink. + +Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you +heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service? + +Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is +shooting back." + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like? + +Mrs. HILL. He wasn't---- + +Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he? + +Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any +meaningful description of him? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why is that? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it +that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully +aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it +seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, +but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general +build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have +talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his +whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at +that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the +building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll? + +Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by +the knoll? + +Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general +impression the shots were coming from. + +Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right +in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest +of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was +getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I +went to catch him, for some reason. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of +the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious +recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I +had always thought that they came from the knoll. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second +shot came from? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came +from? + +Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just +people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one +person shooting. + +Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that? + +Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way +they were fired--the timing. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second +group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the +fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by +someone else. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from? + +Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general +direction of that knoll. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing +them from that knoll? + +Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming +from the knoll? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service +was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first +group of shots? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of +those shots? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was +starting to run? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on +the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You +know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked +all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward +the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't +see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something +about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got +away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had +really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or +had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he +had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time +I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around +the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade +sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different +directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I +want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. +I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come +toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up +there where the tracks were. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to +what point--where? About the point of "D" here? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man? + +Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had +gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get +away, and which way did he go." + +Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look +down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that +time everyone was screaming and moving around. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? +Point it out to me on the diagram. + +Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and +I saw it right about here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there. + +Mrs. HILL. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything +more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over +being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people. + +Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the +case? + +Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of +your identification of who that man was? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even +gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the +car. + +Mr. SPECTER. In which car? + +Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking +me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested +in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I +said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat +between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small +dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us +in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor +or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the +Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on +tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, +"Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a +dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew +they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my +husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the +record? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything +on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best +procedure to follow, that everything be written down. + +Mrs. HILL. Well. + +Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort. + +Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called +Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," +and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't +know it was going to be taken down. + +Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious +when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had +seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would +have to see a dog." + +Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband? + +Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of +people. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this +man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't. + +Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight? + +Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any +bigger than Jack Ruby. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell? + +Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the +impression of a brown hat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age? + +Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro? + +Mrs. HILL. He was a white man. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I can't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about +this man and your reason for moving toward him? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at +point "D," which we have marked on the diagram? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from +different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging +them, trying to get back across the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next? + +Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he +had hold of her camera trying to take it with him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? + +Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. +She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even +gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things +and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had +been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had +been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows +her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat +the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we +could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get +out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be +in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long +and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when +I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her +camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, +and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his +hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't +go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until +then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or +anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in +front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until +I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I +wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think +the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because +I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept +telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, +and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building +at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I +guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we +were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that +everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but +we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would +let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting +things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters? + +Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man +from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker. + +Mr. SPECTER. From where? + +Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think +he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it +was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures +for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house +about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three +or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he +said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day." + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill? + +Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom +that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more +than any--now, I don't remember where I am here. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the +county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about +John coming to see you in your home. + +Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave +an affidavit to the sheriff that day? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government +that day? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to? + +Mrs. HILL. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know? + +Mrs. HILL. Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret +Service in this case altogether? + +Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men +was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they +let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly +were giving a story to the Secret Service men. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them? + +Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything? + +Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the +sheriff's office. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign +anything? + +Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because +they just took us in a little room---- + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men? + +Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have +told me here today? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots +because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but +they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all +from us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion +after the events on November 22? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal +Government? + +Mrs. HILL. The FBI men. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? + +Mrs. HILL. Several. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember? + +Mrs. HILL. I don't recall--I was called two or three times at least +after that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who +said he was from the FBI? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until +I called back down to check to see. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them +back? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? + +Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions? + +Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about when was that? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter--no; +before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and +they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last +Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th--or the 17th? + +Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they +had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these +things and, I read it and told them that I had said it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate? + +Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was +inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions +he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could +have made what he made out of my statements. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about--approximately 4 or 6 weeks ago. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place? + +Mrs. HILL. At New York. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at +the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone +conversation? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next +week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed +so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was +doing in this case. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone? + +Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception +that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, +and at the courthouse. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at +the courthouse? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of +questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were +in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I +mean, this was to us a police station. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to +those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things +you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about. + +Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so +many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really +don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in +telling me all the things you told Mark Lane. + +Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement? + +Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke--just relax. + +Mrs. HILL. I would except, I don't have one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can. + +Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can. + +Mr. SPECTER. Off the record. + +Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the +witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record +show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding. + +When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things +you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified +about. + +Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that--I do want to have you--because I +hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you +about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John +Coker was with. + +Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that? + +Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I +digressed and got on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the +assassination? + +Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days. + +Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion? + +Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take, +and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they +were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their +questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical +situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is +the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a +wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told +them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had--I +had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some +reasonable doubt that I--that Oswald did not do all the shooting and +that all these shots did not come from the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that? + +Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me. + +Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them +what I thought would have had to happen in that situation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would +lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best +recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the +assassin was, if you have any idea on that question? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came +from the knoll, you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the +shots? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away. + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that +came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? +And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting? + +Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think +that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have +already told me about? + +Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your +reaction was at the time. + +Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was +more than one person shooting, as I said before. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me +about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that +was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why +you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the +shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then I asked +you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll +exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought +that might be the case. + +Mrs. HILL. Could be. + +Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings +other than those we have already talked about, which would make you +think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal +observations, recollections or impressions. + +Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television +interview which you consider important? + +Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused. + +Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, +and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have +heard here and there voiced by other people. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on +those various theories? + +Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come +to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is +going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We +want to be ready for it." + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on? + +Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV +either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview +which you now consider important? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, +and particularly since I have been questioned these other times. + +Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that +I have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings +that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and +frankly, I would either like to say it again or something---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again? + +Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning +again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my +mind---- + +Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or +confused by that? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say +about that television interview? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did +you tell him other than that which you have told me here today? + +Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the +pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and +that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing +across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of +it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting +tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and +so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say--$10,000 or +something like this for this picture. + +We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a +representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell +that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a +lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't +have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had +let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could +reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it +could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought +it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to +keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and +that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about +it, and Mary was getting scared---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way? + +Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the +original picture, but they had already--AP and UP had already picked it +up because Featherstone stole it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for? + +Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture? + +Mrs. HILL. This is it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead. + +Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and +Mary was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we +were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he +had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept +standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get out." We +kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "We'll +get it back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of +the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was +told--that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red +raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent +on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out, +"I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does +your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in there." +He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they +had been looking for us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? + +Mrs. HILL. This man. + +Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead. + +Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just +about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and +we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the +pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because +they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the +two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that +time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were +right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long, +and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was +held and I told him, "Yes." + +Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that? + +Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane. + +Mr. SPECTER. If you were held? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I +told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was +just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting +the man intimidate us that had no authority. + +Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I +remember clearly that I gave him his name. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him? + +Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of +there and I talked with a man---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told +Mark Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service +man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They +keep saying three shots--three shots," and I said, "I know I heard +more. I heard from four to six shots anyway." + +He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more +shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three +shots is all that we are willing to say right now." + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you +that there were only three shots in any other way than that? + +Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say +three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say. + +Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way? + +Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane. + +Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way? + +Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except +Decker and the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said. + +Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me--I was asked did I know that a bullet +struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do +you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I +told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of +a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, +which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete? + +Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete? + +Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper. + +Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know +anything about that? + +Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of +the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, +other than that--I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you +stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had stay there." He said +something--he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him +I wasn't threatened, but--he said, "How do you know you were held?" +Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. +At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go +down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me, +and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit +the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were +Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There +were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back +and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my +arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner +saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here +just a little while." They did make us go back in there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from? + +Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just +deputies--they weren't FBI or Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the +sheriff? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that +they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any +time--" I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say +something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing +that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he +said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service +that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was +taken--I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--I told +him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong +about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't." + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong--Featherstone or Lane? + +Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that--I told Mr. Lane that Mr. +Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, +"No; don't say that any more on the air." + +Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?" + +Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I +mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to +tell anyone"---- + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the +Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about +it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I +ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as I +can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day, +that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because +what he gave the Commission was basically true. + +Mr. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Except for what---- + +Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments? + +Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see +why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can +see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, +because he was listening to me--how the Commission could take it to +mean maybe something else? + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission +could take them to mean maybe something else? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context--did +Mark Lane repeat them out of context? + +Mrs. HILL. To me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it +wasn't everything I said. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took +your comments out of context? + +Mrs. HILL. So far as I know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with +Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know +about? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about +the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told +me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when +you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview +you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th +of March? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any +Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have +already told me about? + +Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some +questions about your own background--first of all I would like you to +tell me how old you are, for the record? + +Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of +the country or what? + +Mrs. HILL. Where am I from? + +Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from? + +Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma? + +Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you married? + +Mrs. HILL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being +married at this moment? + +Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you? + +Mrs. HILL. I have two--a boy 12 and a girl 10. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background? + +Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist +University in Shawnee. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school? + +Mrs. HILL. 1948. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college? + +Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college? + +Mrs. HILL. That's right. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time? + +Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for +the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the +Dallas Board of Education. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name? + +Mrs. HILL. Lollis. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation? + +Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately +IBM. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me +which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation? + +Mrs. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition. + +Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission? + +Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the +records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be +called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the +distinction of having been an eye witness. + +Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather--I mean, it's not +something you are--you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part +of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, +because--I think my children will be interested to know that someday +that I was in it someway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are +no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript +will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington +and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might +talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even +conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in +Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we +have the basic information from you which we need. + +Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to +Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it +is absolutely necessary. + +Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much. + +Mrs. HILL. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was +used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. +5. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, +for identification.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER + +The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MILLER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record. + +Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town. + +Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas? + +Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school? + +Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you work? + +Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King +Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. & +P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to +Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there? + +Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you do now? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff +compiler. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which +was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas? + +Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? + +Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located? + +Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston +Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they +use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city +park there. + +Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all, +or not? + +Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of +that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street? + +Mr. MILLER. It would be south. + +Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street? + +Mr. MILLER. Four blocks. + +Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston? + +Mr. MILLER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade +came by? + +Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the +Main Street side. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three +underpasses there? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce, +and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that +is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and +part freeway? + +Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of +underpass. + +Mr. BELIN. Where you were? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get there? + +Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade? + +Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew? + +Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who +is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of +other employees I have seen in the building other than myself. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew? + +Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there? + +Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come +by? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on +Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street. + +Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is +when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle +backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see? + +Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was +two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't +know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall +forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, +I don't know exactly what she said. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? + +Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is +a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if +anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or +see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, +so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across +the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad +tracks. + +So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible +take off fast. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding? + +Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a +convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible +it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would +say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was +looking at him over toward that incline. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw. + +Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was +a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the +curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right +behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious +movements of any kind over there? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad +tracks, that you hadn't seen before? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right +at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about +5 or 10 feet behind us. + +Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if +you can remember? + +Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe +more, maybe less. + +Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the +vicinity at all on the railroad tracks? + +Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on +the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he +was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and +he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the +police officer made him go back down. + +Where he went to, I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. When was this? + +Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along. + +Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you +described? About how old he was, or anything? + +Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties. + +Mr. BELIN. Tall or short? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him +coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back. + +Mr. BELIN. So he went back down? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from? + +Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He +was from our left, from around behind that parking lot. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything +on the railroad tracks at any time? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the +police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started +searching. + +Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw? + +Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any +way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination? + +Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else. + +My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly +what all did happen for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did +we? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately +taking your testimony under oath, is that correct? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this +deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive +the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your +signing. What would be your preference? + +Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed---- + +Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed. + +Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference. + +Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You +can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here +again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and +sign. + +Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage +to not have to take off. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you +very much. + +There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on +the sketch where you were. + +Mr. MILLER. Okay. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I +am going to try and get this thing oriented here. + +Here is Houston Street running north this way. + +There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway +overpass. + +Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing. + +Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I +have put there, is that right? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of +Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. + +Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY + +The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling]. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal. + +Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? + +Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth. + +Mr. BALL. How many years ago? + +Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have? + +Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade. + +Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general +way--you don't need to go into great detail? + +Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916. + +Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal +Co.? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day? + +Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the +other end. + +Mr. BALL. What was that? + +Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor. + +Mr. BALL. Who were you working with? + +Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday. + +Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street? + +Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there +together to see the parade. + +Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office? + +Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop. + +Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation? + +Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor. + +Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go? + +Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass? + +Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there. + +Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over +Elm, over Main, or over Commerce? + +Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. REILLY. We were between them. + +Mr. BALL. Between what streets? + +Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main. + +Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of +another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is +north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets. + +Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the +overpass. + +Mr. REILLY. We were between the two. + +Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and +make a mark and show me where you were standing? + +Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass. + +Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters +up there and it was about like that, I guess. + +Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there. + +Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by +Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there +when the motorcade came along? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you? + +Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney. + +Mr. BALL. And what are his initials? + +Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd. + +Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it? + +Mr. REILLY. I think so. + +Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.? + +Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers. + +Mr. BALL. Who else was with him? + +Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I +don't know their names? + +Mr. BALL. What are their names? + +Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them. + +Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland? + +Mr. REILLY. We were together. + +Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there? + +Mr. REILLY. We were together. + +Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you? + +Mr. REILLY. And me. + +Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men? + +Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they +were. + +Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there. + +Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is---- + +Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their +name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a +while to put in lamps. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named +Skelton there? + +Mr. REILLY. No; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller? + +Mr. REILLY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location? + +Mr. REILLY. All right close together. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there? + +Mr. REILLY. One behind me. + +Mr. BALL. One behind you? + +Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks. + +Mr. BALL. That would be where? + +Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there? + +Mr. REILLY. On the far side. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? + +Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side. + +Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark +down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you +remember it. + +Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here. + +Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing +behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along +here, but just how far back, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers +were standing. + +Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, +I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing? + +Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8." + +Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of +you? + +Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me. + +Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and +Commerce"--this other police officer was near what? + +Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was +two of them up there. + +Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you? + +Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and +west--these streets. + +Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south. + +Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me. + +Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one +here---- + +Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there, +was there? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. One was closer than the other one? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How close was the one that was closer to you? + +Mr. REILLY. I have an idea about 8 or 10 feet. + +Mr. BALL. And how far away was the other one? + +Mr. REILLY. About the width of that overpass across--75 or 80 feet +across there. + +Mr. BALL. One was 8 or 10 feet from you, and the other one was 75 feet +from you and they were both behind you? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street? + +Mr. REILLY. No; not until it turned and started to come under the +underpass. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you first see it? + +Mr. REILLY. When it turned off of Houston Street and started around. + +Mr. BALL. Onto Elm Street? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you saw the President's car, when it +turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many people were there on the overpass at the time--at +that time? + +Mr. REILLY. Just what I told you. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me again. + +Mr. REILLY. Well, there was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and those two +fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all I remember seeing +out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear something? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. REILLY. Three shots. + +Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from; what direction? + +Mr. REILLY. It seemed to me like they come out of the trees. + +Mr. BALL. What trees? + +Mr. REILLY. On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there. + +Mr. BALL. On the north side of Elm--on what corner? + +Mr. REILLY. Well, where all those trees are--you've never been down +there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; I've been there, but you tell me--I want you to tell me +because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing. + +Mr. REILLY. Well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up +there--it's to the north of Elm Street--up the slope. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons fly? + +Mr. REILLY. No; I didn't pay no attention to that. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots? + +Mr. REILLY. I just stood there a few minutes and then I went on down to +the shop. + +Mr. BALL. Which way did you walk? + +Mr. REILLY. South. + +Mr. BALL. South? + +Mr. REILLY. Toward the post office. + +Mr. BALL. Your shop is down south of that place? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes; it's the other side of the station. + +Mr. BALL. Who walked with you? + +Mr. REILLY. Nobody. + +Mr. BALL. You walked alone? + +Mr. REILLY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Reilly. This will be written up and +you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your +signature if you wish. + +Which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want +to waive your signature? + +Mr. REILLY. No; I'll do anything you want me to. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do +you want to do? + +Mr. REILLY. I'll sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +This young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down +here and sign it. How is that? + +Mr. REILLY. Well, will I have to come back? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; you will. + +Mr. REILLY. It is hard for me to get off. + +Mr. BALL. It is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is +inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as Exhibit A to +your deposition. + +Mr. REILLY. All right. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Reilly Exhibit A," for +identification.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN + +The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Mr. BROWN. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BROWN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please. + +Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. BROWN. Policeman. + +Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman? + +Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training? + +Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I +completed 12 years of schooling, high school. + +Mr. BALL. High school? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; +Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 +months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually +when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, +let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and +then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on +duty? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway +service road. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm? + +Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm? + +Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm. + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What does it cross? + +Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make +that turn off Elm and go up. + +Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a +little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway? + +Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a +road. Where I was was the railroad overpass. + +Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm +goes under the overpass? + +Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be +your position. You were appointed to this particular spot? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the +highway? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it? + +Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the +service road both go under the underpass. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. BROWN. James Lomax. + +Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under +the underpass? + +Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards. + +Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction? + +Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to +easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a +20째 angle to the right. + +Mr. BALL. You would be east or west? + +Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that. + +Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight +from where you were located? + +Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming +and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we +probably could see would be cars. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and +going down toward the underpass south? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You could see those? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this +location? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were they? + +Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward +and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass. + +Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax? + +Mr. BROWN. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown? + +Mr. BROWN. That's me. + +Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy? + +Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he? + +Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his +three-wheeler. + +Mr. BALL. On his motor? + +Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass? + +Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad +detectives come up there and talked to us. + +Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people? + +Mr. BROWN. Underneath? + +Mr. BALL. No; up above. + +Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What about underneath? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to +walk. + +Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing? + +Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us. + +Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you +know. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards? + +Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out. + +Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing? + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your +vision to the railroad yards? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level +we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't +have a very good view. + +Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston +Street from Elm; were you able to see that? + +Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it +stopped. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it +stopped. + +Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop? + +Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to. + +Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. BROWN. Three. + +Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would +you like me to tell you? + +Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words. + +Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot +of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did +because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom? + +Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this +overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. +It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they +were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at +least it smelled like it to me. + +Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from? + +Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that +Texas---- + +Mr. BALL. School Book Depository? + +Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building? + +Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound? + +Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that +building because actually it seemed to come from there. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise? + +Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because +they just seemed to all take off. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing? + +Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way +between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what +they call the triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. The triple underpass? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass? + +Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass? + +Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers? + +Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the +motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, +I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on +ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it +passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer +in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like +a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the +back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; +of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the +fact it did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction? + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept +checking that area through there and, of course, there were people +all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad +right-of-way through there. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the +point where Elm goes underneath? + +Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers. + +Mr. BALL. More than one? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area? + +Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and +later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book +Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those +cars parked around there, which we did. + +Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there +was several cars parked all around that building. + +Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five +officers taking license numbers. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you around there? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass +and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there +until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall +and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you +can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your +signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish? + +Mr. BROWN. You mean today? + +Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so. + +Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer? + +Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have? + +Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign +it---- + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and +sign it. It is your option; you can do either way. + +Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED + +The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your +deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown? + +Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling). + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to +have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a +north and south direction? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and +south, doesn't it? + +Mr. BROWN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses? + +Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you? + +Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here--this TP Railroad overpass. + +Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction? + +Mr. BROWN. Right--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position +on the overpass? + +Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the +tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each +side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end +and we would walk the tracks and come around there. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on +Houston and Elm Street? + +Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk. + +Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position? + +Mr. BROWN. I would be--approximately in the center. (Instrument marked +by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that. + +Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass? + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there. + +Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where +Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass--you +don't recall seeing anybody? + +Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there. + +Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers. + +Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers--would be the only +ones I saw. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were? + +Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have +positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram? + +Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark +that as Brown Exhibits--the X marks the position of Brown, is that +correct? + +Mr. BROWN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much. + +Mr. BROWN. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown +Exhibit A," for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming. + +Mr. BROWN. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROYCE G. SKELTON + +The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth? + +Mr. SKELTON. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, for the record? + +Mr. SKELTON. Royce G. Skelton. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. SKELTON. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you work? + +Mr. SKELTON. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and where did you come from? + +Mr. SKELTON. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school? + +Mr. SKELTON. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I +graduated from Wichita Falls High School. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me where you went to school. + +Mr. SKELTON. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at +Midwestern University. + +Mr. BALL. And when did you go to work for the railroad? + +Mr. SKELTON. February 1, 1963. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? + +Mr. SKELTON. Mail clerk. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade +of the President? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20--I +think it was 12:15, or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down there with? + +Mr. SKELTON. Austin Miller and myself. + +Mr. BALL. Where does he work? + +Mr. SKELTON. He is a mail clerk also in the same company. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stand to watch the parade? + +Mr. SKELTON. Well, we were directly over Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. Directly over Elm? + +Mr. SKELTON. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on +the street. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody else there on the overpass? + +Mr. SKELTON. There were quite a few people up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know any of them? + +Mr. SKELTON. Well, I know by sight--I knew the electrician, an old man +that's an electrician. + +Mr. BALL. Frank Reilly? + +Mr. SKELTON. Is that his name? + +Mr. BALL. The man that was here a moment ago--his name is Reilly. + +Mr. SKELTON. I know him when I see him. + +Mr. BALL. Yes---- + +Mr. SKELTON. And Austin Miller, of course. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad? + +Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I +see them around there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officers there? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes; this man right here--they say it was him--I don't +recall whether it was or not. + +Mr. BALL. Who--Mr. Brown? + +Mr. SKELTON. The one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was +the one up there, but I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't recognize him there? + +Mr. SKELTON. No; I didn't recognize him. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you saw some police officers up there? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? + +Mr. SKELTON. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in +the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple +underpass. + +Mr. BALL. By "far side," you mean where? + +Mr. SKELTON. It would be back on this side. + +Mr. BALL. It would be south? + +Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it? + +Mr. BALL. Elm runs east and west. + +Mr. SKELTON. It would be the west side. + +Mr. BALL. It would be west? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on +Stemmons--I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad +overpass on Stemmons. + +Mr. BALL. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad +overpass? + +Mr. SKELTON. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw. + +Mr. BALL. And how many men did you see standing right near on the +railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately? + +Mr. SKELTON. Eight, including the officer--eight or nine. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag +turn. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear something soon after that? + +Mr. SKELTON. Just about the same time the car straightened up--got +around the corner--I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time +they were shots. + +Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from? + +Mr. SKELTON. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from +where I was. + +Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were +standing? + +Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right +there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they +were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see +the smoke coming up off the cement. + +Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what +direction? + +Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car. + +Mr. BALL. From the President's car? + +Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't +distinguish because it was too far away. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there? + +Mr. SKELTON. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the +President was shot. + +Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. SKELTON. I think I heard four--I mean--I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. BALL. You think you heard four? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot? + +Mr. SKELTON. Not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and +everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio. +We couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the President had +been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked +us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said +he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the +sheriff's office. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that? + +Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at +all. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and +submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can +waive your signature. + +Which do you want to do? + +Mr. SKELTON. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right. + +Mr. BALL. That is fine. Thank you very much. + +Mr. SKELTON. There's one thing I could say--you have that other report? + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. SKELTON. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the +pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of +where you say Oswald was. + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that. + +Tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke? + +Mr. SKELTON. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to +the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I +heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I +take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the President's car +on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from +the building. + +Mr. BALL. You mean there was some smoke in the building? + +Mr. SKELTON. No; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit +with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread. + +Mr. BALL. Which way did it spread? + +Mr. SKELTON. It spread just right in line, like you said. + +Mr. BALL. I haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was? + +Mr. SKELTON. Like I said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know, +in a direct line from the Texas Depository. + +Mr. BALL. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is +that right? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Thanks very much. + +I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were +standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no +attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing. + +Mr. SKELTON. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as +requested by Counsel Ball). + +Mr. BALL. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where +you were standing with your friend? + +Mr. SKELTON. Approximately--yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around +there? + +Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard +people say they did, but I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. But you did see something light on the street? + +Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About where? + +Mr. SKELTON. A bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion +[referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here +[indicating on diagram]. + +Mr. BALL. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the +first Skelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark +here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go? + +Mr. SKELTON. Just like it was going there. + +Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray +was going. + +Mr. SKELTON. (Marks the diagram with arrow.) + +Mr. BALL. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton +exhibit A and attach it to your deposition. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for +identification) + +Mr. BALL. Thank you and that is all. + +Mr. SKELTON. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF S. M. HOLLAND + +The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964 +in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his +attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison. + + +Mr. STERN. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be +sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. + +You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence? + +The Reporter. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission +asking you to come and testify today? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the +facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want +your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination +from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your +name and residence address? + +Mr. HOLLAND. S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. STERN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been employed by that organization? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Union Terminal since 1938. + +Mr. STERN. Now on Friday November 22, will you describe what you did +concerning the President's visit and where you were? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a +plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had +some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a +parade, and I left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to +the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back +up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. +That is the railroad people. + +Mr. STERN. Where is your office Mr Holland? + +Mr. HOLLAND. At the Union Terminal Station. + +Mr. STERN. Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile, a very +short distance. + +Mr. STERN. And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 +altogether? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Two--there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in +plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen. + +Mr. STERN. You don't know what his affiliation was? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I know he was a plainclothes detective or FBI agent or +some thing like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back +and after lunch I would go up there. + +Mr. STERN. Approximately what time did you arrive up there? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, +and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at +the Union Terminal, and department so-and-so. + +Mr. STERN. Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then +until 12:30? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there +then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Reilly? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Reilly. + +Mr. STERN. Who was---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn. + +Mr. STERN. Luke? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Winburn. + +Mr. STERN. And---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car +department. + +Mr. STERN. Johnson. + +Mr. HOLLAND. And there was another fellow who worked at the car +department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name. + +Mr. STERN. That makes six people so far. Are these all employees of---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Of the terminal? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the +Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I +do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business. +Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee, +and one was a T. & P. employee. + +Mr. STERN. Could you give me their full names? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad. + +Mr. STERN. You don't know the names of those particular men? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; I don't. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see them here today? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification +from them. + +Mr. STERN. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen +that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just +before---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; neither one of those. + +Mr. STERN. Did you recognize either of those two men? + +Mr. HOLLAND. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an +electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver. + +Mr. STERN. The electrician, do you know his name? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Frank Reilly. + +Mr. STERN. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't +notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I +guess--Davey Cowzert was up there, too. + +Mr. STERN. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize +either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as +being people who were on the overpass that day? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No. + +Mr. STERN. All right. + +Mr. HOLLAND. There was two people I did recognize and that was the +cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up +there with me. + +Mr. STERN. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was +on the triple overpass at the time? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert. + +Mr. STERN. Is he also an employee? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; he is. + +Mr. STERN. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time +the Presidential motorcade---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Came into view? + +Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around +the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me--why in the +world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around +the fence to what was happening. + +Mr. STERN. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police +officers were on the overpass at the time? + +Mr. HOLLAND. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that +time. + +Mr. STERN. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the +Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on +the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following +employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. +Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other +man? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two +employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, +by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I +can't remember who it was or their names, because---- + +Mr. STERN. Before the motorcade started? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Before the motorcade started. + +Mr. STERN. These were people you recognized as employees? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I +think he was asking for credentials. + +Mr. STERN. The uniformed policeman? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep +them---- + +Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being +terminal or railroad employees? + +Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose +for going up there. + +Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's +motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass +that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad +employees, or as a policeman? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a +few came up there right in the last moments. + +Mr. STERN. There were? Tell us about that. + +Mr. HOLLAND. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people +up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few +minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their +identification, and---- + +Mr. STERN. Is this just about the time of the motorcade? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there +was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself. + +Mr. STERN. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the +police? + +Mr. HOLLAND. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass. + +Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked +by this policeman for identification? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I think everyone was checked by some person. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the +overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 +people. + +Mr. STERN. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail. + +Mr. STERN. Turning right off of Main onto Houston? + +Mr. HOLLAND. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto +Houston. + +Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you +were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is +where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass +over Elm Street? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. And where, in relation to the concrete fence that---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Picket fence or concrete? + +Mr. STERN. No; the concrete. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, the concrete banister? + +Mr. STERN. The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I was; would you like to see the exact location? + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. HOLLAND. This is my son standing in the exact location I was in +[indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. Off the record a moment. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit +B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph +you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position +at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the +motorcade came into view. + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you +indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were +standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two +police officers who were on the overpass? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was +standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me. + +Mr. STERN. Put a "2" where you believe he was standing. + +Mr. HOLLAND. He was standing in close enough so that he could see, +but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, +unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned +there. I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time +I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about +[indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. Standing almost directly behind you? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all +railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately +before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't +know, but--because I was watching them. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you +indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people +were who were on the overpass at this time. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well---- + +Mr. STERN. Were they all standing in one group? + +Mr. HOLLAND. There was a pretty close group between this column here, +and this place right in there. In other words, if I can--had a shot of +it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one. + +Mr. STERN. What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the +overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be +the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or +something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get +to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in +here, over to right in here [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. All right. Now---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here +to this [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that +runs from the end of the concrete banister? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. Over to a little---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Little house there. + +Mr. STERN. Little---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. What do they call that thing? + +Mr. MORRISON. I don't know. + +Mr. STERN. Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main +Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young +ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge--would say +they were standing about here [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. Put No. 4 there, please. Fine. + +Mr. HOLLAND. And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the +President was waving to the people on this side [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. That is the north side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; on the north side. + +Mr. STERN. All right. + +Mr. HOLLAND. And she was looking in this direction [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. "She," is Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. HOLLAND. His wife. And about that time---- + +Mr. STERN. Was looking in a southern direction? + +Mr. HOLLAND. In the southern direction. + +Mr. STERN. South side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HOLLAND. And about that time he went over like that [indicating], +and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could +tell. + +Mr. STERN. Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward +and raised your right hand? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily. + +Mr. STERN. With his right hand? + +Mr. HOLLAND. His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard. + +Mr. STERN. What did it sound like? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath +this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from +underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a +few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that +[indicating] with his hand out, and another report. + +Mr. STERN. With his right hand out? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Turning to his right. + +Mr. STERN. To his right? + +Mr. HOLLAND. And another report rang out and he slumped down in his +seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over +here [indicating]. The girls standing--now one of them was taking a +picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned +around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she +realized what was happening, I guess. + +Now, I mean, that was apparently that--she turned back around, and by +the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in--I'd say +along in here [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. How do you know that? Did you observe that? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the +floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---- + +Mr. STERN. Did you hear a third report? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I heard a third report and I counted four shots and +about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of +trees--[indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm +Street? + +Mr. HOLLAND. These trees right along here [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees +you are referring to. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Right in there. (Indicating.) + +There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I +can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above +the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this +location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, +like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that +is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous +reports or shots. + +Mr. STERN. What number would that have been in the---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, that would--they were so close together. + +Mr. STERN. The second and third or the third and fourth? + +Mr. HOLLAND. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth. + +Mr. STERN. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth? + +Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were +definitely four reports. + +Mr. STERN. You have no doubt about that? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing +that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either. + +Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of +of the FBI several days after? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's +office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there +were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot. + +Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at +that time? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. You were certain then? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I was certain then and I--in that statement I believe that +I---- + +Mr. STERN. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either +three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the +agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four. + +Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty +well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever +took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they +were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six +Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of +smoke and heard the report from under those trees. + +Mr. STERN. Did you realize that these were shots then? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there. + +Mr. STERN. You did? + +Mr. HOLLAND. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat. + +Mr. STERN. What did you then do? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, immediately after the shots was fired, I run around +the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone +up there behind the fence. + +Mr. STERN. That is the picket fence? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That is the picket fence. + +Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was +just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and +I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this +fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 +policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around +there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the +office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, +and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to +the office and took me back up to the courthouse. + +Mr. STERN. Did he know you personally? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He +didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at +the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the +statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out +the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that +policeman. + +I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately +after the motorcade had passed through there. + +Mr STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if +you had one? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or +three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I +was. + +Mr. STERN. East on Elm? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have +the least idea that it was up any higher, but I thought the shot was +coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it +sounded like to me from where I was. + +Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a +square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I +take it, that the shots were coming from your area? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No. + +Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far +as the sound was concerned? + +Mr. HOLLAND. As far as the sound was concerned they did not. + +Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any +way unusual? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, no; no. + +Mr. STERN. All right. Off the record. + +(Off the record.) + +Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy +of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit +you made that you described a few moments ago? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. STERN. Would you read that. + +Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was +inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was +standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was +coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I +heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over +and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke +come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot +but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around +to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running +from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the +arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over +and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to +him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret +Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped +back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is +spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come +back and tell Bill." + +That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too. + +Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Stand there and watch two or three men get killed---- + +Mr. STERN. Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, +thought you heard four shots at that time? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. All right. + +Mr. HOLLAND. But, two of them was rather close together, though. + +Mr. STERN. So close do you think that might have been one shot? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No, it was four. + +Mr. STERN. You are clear there were four? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; it was different sounds, different reports. + +Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would +like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed? + +Mr. MORRISON. Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't +then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was +a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, +and a spot. I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had +been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them +about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the +bumper of that station wagon. + +Mr. STERN. This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well, +why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would +have been. + +Mr. HOLLAND. If we could call this the arcade [indicating]---- + +Mr. STERN. All right. + +Mr. HOLLAND. And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about +here [indicating]. + +Mr. STERN. All right. + +Mr. MORRISON. That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence, +wouldn't it? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car +would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which +would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the +trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location. + +Mr. STERN. All right. And this was a station wagon? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the +time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law +enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that +they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had +been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy. + +Mr. STERN. Tracks you saw in the mud? + +Mr. HOLLAND. It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted +them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one +location. It was just---- + +Mr. STERN. And then you saw some mud on the bumper? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Mud on the bumper in two spots. + +Mr. STERN. As if someone had cleaned his foot, or---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on +the bumper to see over the fence. + +Mr. STERN. I see. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down +in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you +could---- + +Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No. + +Mr. STERN. Do you recall the---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location. + +Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes. + +Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night. + +Mr. STERN. I see. + +Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I +couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I +have thought about it a lot of times since then. + +Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the +station wagon? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the +rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of +your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was +just a beehive. + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes. + +Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the +Dallas Police officers about it? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did. + +Mr. STERN. This is really the first time---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I +remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember +that, but I don't think I did. + +Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did. + +Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it +because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of +everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went +on back to my office. + +Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were +fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go. + +Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Or, that area? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to +searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there +then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the +tracks there in one little spot. + +Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the +shots were fired? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the +cars. + +Mr. STERN. In front of the cars---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I +came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked +back down looking around, just like the rest of them. + +Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 +minutes after I got up to the end of the fence. + +Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are +regularly parked? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and +people over to the courthouse. They park in there. + +Mr. STERN. I see. + +Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' +cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in +there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble. + +Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in +that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the +middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in +his hand. + +Mr. STERN. Toward---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. The location that---- + +Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke? + +Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to +ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and +he run up the rest of the way on foot. + +Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the---- + +Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the---- + +Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired? + +Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired. + +Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade? + +Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle +down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his +pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over +the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his +motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there +the rest of the way with his---- + +Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the +fence. + +Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline? + +Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened. + +Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No. + +Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No. + +Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you? + +Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I +am tickled. + +Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here +today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and +you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if +you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly +to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you +prefer. + +Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it. + +Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon +as his transcript is ready to read. + +Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the +authorities in any way? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will. + +Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up? + +Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will. + +Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal +friends for over 10 years, haven't we? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. + +Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought +you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less +nervous? + +Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went +over to that sheriff's office that afternoon. + +Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER + + +The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to +give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FOSTER. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in +and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was +established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the +assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff +counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions +about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your address? + +Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer. + +Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Patrolman? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department? + +Mr. FOSTER. Nine years. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised? + +Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro. + +Mr. BALL. What was your education? + +Mr. FOSTER. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school? + +Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. FOSTER. Service. + +Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy---- + +Mr. FOSTER. Army. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here. + +Mr. BALL. On the police department? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the +Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of +accidents. + +Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that? + +Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all +unauthorized personnel off of it. + +Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why? + +Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there. + +Mr. BALL. What are they? + +Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm. + +Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it. + +Mr. FOSTER. All right. + +(Off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about +the time that the President's motorcade came into sight? + +Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south +curb of Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass. + +Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position? + +Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he? + +Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the east side? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was on the west side? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we +will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition. + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and +south direction, is that right? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there. + +Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it +down below the Terminal. + +Mr. BALL. There are yards south? + +Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. That is north and west? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And also south? + +Mr. FOSTER. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it? + +Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto +Houston. + +Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time. + +Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing? + +Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass +over Elm Street there. About the south curb. + +Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were +standing and write your initials right next to that "X". + +J.--what are the initials? + +Mr. FOSTER. J. W. + +Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing. + +Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it +turned? + +Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the +overpass there with me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel +off of that overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you do that? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there. + +Mr. BALL. Were there many people? + +Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? + +Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister. + +Mr. BALL. The east banister? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me. + +Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the +general area where they were standing? + +Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people +were standing? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that +day? + +Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side. + +Mr. BALL. He was on the west side? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was his name? + +Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the +position you have indicated? + +Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be +on the west side of the banister. + +Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car +passed--turned onto Elm from Houston. + +Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the +track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a +large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the +second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was +happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move +around. I ran after I saw what was happening. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening? + +Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head +looked just like it blew up. + +Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? + +Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to +the left--around to the bookstore. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source +of the sounds, the direction of the sounds? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston +Streets. + +Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the +overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there? + +Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore. + +Mr. BALL. Immediately? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that? + +Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the +bookstore at that time? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather +back in that area. + +Mr. BALL. At that time? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west +of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired? + +Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent +them back down the roadway. + +Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building, +what did you do? + +Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one +came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check +the--all the railroad cars down there. + +Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant? + +Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars? + +Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to +report back to Inspector Sawyer. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you +thought the shots came from? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them? + +Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and +Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to +Sawyer? + +Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer. + +Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant? + +Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could +find where any of the shots hit. + +Mr. BALL. Find anything? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at +the location. + +Mr. BALL. Hit the turf? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole +cover right at the corner and---- + +Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole +cover. Do you recognize that picture? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there. + +Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the +turf right here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on +the concrete, right in the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw +that? + +Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the +position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Went into the turf? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot? + +Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location. + +Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture? + +Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let +them take it. Can I see the picture? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture? + +Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture. + +Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A" +and "B" now. + +Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your +signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or +you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer? + +Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter. + +Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice. + +Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and +sign it. + +Mr. FOSTER. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please. + +Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster? + +Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness. + +Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the +overpass? + +Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees? + +Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they +had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were +employees. + +Mr. BALL. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE + +The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be +the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WHITE. I do. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. + +Mr. WHITE. J. C. White. + +Mr. BALL. What is your residence? + +Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite. + +Mr. BALL. And your occupation? + +Mr. WHITE. Policeman. + +Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. For a request to---- + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your---- + +Mr. WHITE. Captain. + +Mr. BALL. Which captain? + +Mr. WHITE. Lawrence. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts +and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. +We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have +that might aid us in that investigation. + +I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am +authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During +the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and +the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of +some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry +if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the +reason you are here. + +You are willing to testify, are you not? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it. + +Mr. WHITE. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you. + +Mr. WHITE. Okay. + +Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born? + +Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school? + +Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army. + +Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army? + +Mr. WHITE. About 3 years. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do? + +Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus? + +Mr. WHITE. 6 years. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. How long ago? + +Mr. WHITE. 1956. + +Mr. BALL. And what are you now? + +Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator. + +Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you? + +Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass. + +Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as +they go underneath the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street. + +Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the +north curb of Main? That would be---- + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can +use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram +that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks +and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want +you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on +the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it. + +You have made an "X". + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main? + +Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main. + +Mr. BALL. The north curb? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. North curb of Main? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day? + +Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. WHITE. None. + +Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around +noon? + +Mr. WHITE. Not on my side. + +Mr. BALL. They did not? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the +overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were they? + +Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, +didn't you? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who were they? + +Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company. + +Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad +company? + +Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on +the rails. + +Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the +triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you? + +Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train +passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the +procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and I did not +see it. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel +over on the--would it be the---- + +Mr. WHITE. East side? + +Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many people? + +Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going +underneath? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest +side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book +store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes +they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I +stood out there and worked traffic. + +Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or +anything? + +Mr. WHITE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Making noise? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass? + +Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for +your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. +Which do you wish to do? + +Mr. WHITE. You said a while ago to him it would be written up like +this? Is that correct? + +Mr. BALL. No, it will be written up in the form of a deposition. + +Mr. WHITE. I will waive. + +Mr. BALL. You waive it. Okay. Fine. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY + +The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MURPHY. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? + +Mr. MURPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, +Drive. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation? + +Mr. MURPHY. Police officer. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department? + +Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year. + +Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. MURPHY. Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. MURPHY. High school--St. Joseph High School here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class +D--West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the +Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years +and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you? + +Mr. MURPHY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler? + +Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler--yes. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass--the Stemmons Freeway +overpass northbound at Elm Street--over Elm. + +Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have? + +Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and +to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show +your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument--Murphy +Exhibit A, for identification.) + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were +standing, is that right? + +Mr. MURPHY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position +1, using an "X". + +Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested +by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on that overpass? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; there were two more about--oh, a 100 feet south of +me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered +the Stemmons Freeway north entrance. + +Mr. BALL. Now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade +came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; they did. + +Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass +at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3). + +Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3)? + +Mr. MURPHY. I can't recall. I know them but I can't recall who they +were. + +Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive +three-wheelers? + +Mr. MURPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers. + +Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic +on Stemmons Freeway? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers +farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches +pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then +stop it. They did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic +as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the +excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then +it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position. + +Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on +the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down? + +Mr. MURPHY. No; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of +the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived. + +Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you? + +Mr. MURPHY. It was me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as +you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that +you encounter? + +Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering +and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass? + +Mr. MURPHY. There were two. + +Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them +before the motorcade arrived? + +Mr. MURPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side--one here and one +over on this side. + +Mr. BALL. All right, mark the position of the officer on the west side +as Position (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5). + +(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) +Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know their names? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers? + +Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn't say. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on +this railroad overpass? + +Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10--from what I could see--about 8 +or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad +employees. + +Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm +Street. + +Mr. BALL. They were all together? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy +drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as +requested by Counsel Ball). + +Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And mark that (6). + +(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many? + +Mr. MURPHY. 8 to 10 persons. + +Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and +Houston? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view? + +Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a +few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is +some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what +you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1)? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned +west on Elm from Houston? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it +before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill. + +Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on +Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were +you looking? + +Mr. MURPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction. + +Mr. BALL. Toward what? + +Mr. MURPHY. Toward the motorcade--towards the President's car. + +Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad +men where you have marked Position (6)? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, I didn't--I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who +were at Position (4) and (5)? + +Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also. + +Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass +except the ones you have described? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something--heard shots? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard--I knew they were shots as soon as I heard +them, but I thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun, +and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and +everything--then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do +quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle. + +Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, just from the direction I was looking--that's all +I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was +standing. + +Mr. BALL. And were there echoes? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few. + +Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do +anything? + +Mr. MURPHY. I don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I +did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment +on Elm and running. That would be here--right in here. + +Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm? + +Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were +running and mark that arrow as "7"--that's the direction you saw people +running? + +Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, +they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book +Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because +I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other +people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position +(6) on your map? + +Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing +up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I +found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, +north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other +officers had it stopped there. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at your position? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes +after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio +that there had been a shooting--the President had been shot--and then I +went towards the Book Depository. + +I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then--off of +the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the +next--I would say hour or hour and a half at least. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses? + +Mr. MURPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said +they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took +them to the sheriff's office across the street. + +Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the +investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district +attorney's investigators, that's who they were. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes of their names? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, one man in particular--he was standing on Elm--he +was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and +he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one +shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that +he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here +on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from +overhead to his rear. + +Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or +statement? + +Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your +deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over +and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is +your option--what would you like to do? + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't, +that's perfectly all right with me. + +Mr. BALL. It isn't necessary. + +Mr. MURPHY. Well, that's all right then. + +Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature? + +Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. + +Mr. MURPHY. All right--certainly. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROGER D. CRAIG + +The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, +please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CRAIG. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your full name? + +Mr. CRAIG. Roger Dean Craig. + +Mr. BELIN. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Craig? + +Mr. CRAIG. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. And what's your occupation? + +Mr. CRAIG. Deputy Sheriff. + +Mr. BELIN. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Craig? + +Mr. CRAIG. 27. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you raised here in Texas? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran +away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were 12? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12--or not? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service +in Japan when--uh--I was 19, and passed it and got my high school +equivalent test--I mean, my diploma. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you in the Service, then? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. In what branch? + +Mr. CRAIG. I was in the Army. + +Mr. BELIN. And how long were you in the Army? + +Mr. CRAIG. 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living +with anyone or were you on your own--or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite. + +Mr. BELIN. Where? + +Mr. CRAIG. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when +you were 12? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. And then where did you live? + +Mr. CRAIG. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and +then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you were married when you were---- + +Mr. CRAIG. 16. + +Mr. BELIN. 16. And where? + +Mr. CRAIG. Here in Texas. + +Mr. BELIN. Here in Texas. + +And then you enlisted in the Army when? + +Mr. CRAIG. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you went in the Service? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And served overseas? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You were discharged when, then? + +Mr. CRAIG. In--uh--October of 1955, I believe. In September or October +of 1955, sir, is when I got out. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you were in the service? + +Mr. CRAIG. I served in the--uh--motor pool of the 92d Armored Field. + +Mr. BELIN. And, after you got out of service, what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a +dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a +while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey +Lane here in Dallas--2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about +3-1/2 years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex +Corp.? + +Mr. CRAIG. Packager. I just packaged the Purex. + +Mr. BELIN. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's +Office? + +Mr. CRAIG. In October--October the 9th of 1959. + +Mr. BELIN. And you've been there ever since? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you married? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d, +1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's +office that day? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is the sheriff's office located? + +Mr. CRAIG. 505 Main Street. + +Mr. BELIN. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the +south side of Main? + +Mr. CRAIG. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that +Record Street there? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over +to Elm Street. It covers that entire block. + +Mr. BELIN. How far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then +the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street. + +Mr. BELIN. To Record Street. + +Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on +November 22? + +Mr. CRAIG. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade. +I went out there about--oh--5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited +directly in front of the front door on the curb. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be on the north curb of Main? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the +motorcade finally came by. + +Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on +Main Street? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely +moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20--what? + +Mr. CRAIG. Probably going--probably 3 or 4 miles an hour. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You saw the President's car? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and +Houston? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then it turned? + +Mr. CRAIG. Turned north on Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, about the same. They--uh--they were going about the same +speed as they made the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the +President's car? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the +front part of it and--uh--I believe behind it--just a little ways +behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side +of the car, as I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. The ones on the front--where would the back wheels of +the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the +President's car? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and +moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us. + +Mr. BELIN. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the +car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to +the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car? + +Mr. CRAIG. About equal to the back bumper. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those? + +Mr. CRAIG. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of +course, and a few of the others. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car? + +Mr. CRAIG. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe +there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched +the President's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after +the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there +looking around, you know. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what happened? + +Mr. CRAIG. Then I heard an explosion. + +Mr. BELIN. When you heard the explosion, what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, the first--nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew +it was a shot but--uh--I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds +later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. +And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward +Houston Street. + +Mr. BELIN. How many explosions did you hear altogether? + +Mr. CRAIG. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far were these noises apart? + +Mr. CRAIG. The first one was--uh--about three seconds--2 or 3 seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been +a little longer. + +Mr. BELIN. And what about between the second and third? + +Mr. CRAIG. Not more than 2 seconds. It was--they were real rapid. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. I continued running across Houston Street, across the +parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on +down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to +look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I +began moving people back out of the railroad yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came +from? + +Mr. CRAIG. It was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know. +There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the--uh--the +shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell. + +Mr. BELIN. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they +thought the shots came from? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl +getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the +north side of Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she thought they came from there? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that +particular point---- + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. And she thought that's where they came from. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this +girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some +other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two +men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; +one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought +they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was +about--uh--oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold +Rowland--(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that sound like it? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; it sounds like the name--yes. + +Mr. BELIN. His wife might be Barbara Rowland? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else +or talk with anyone before you got back with them? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around, you know, for just--after I turned +this girl over to Mr. Lewis--I began looking around and talking to +people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this +man and his wife. + +Mr. BELIN. And about what time do you think this was in relation +to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this +young couple? + +Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe. + +Mr. BELIN. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after +the shots were fired? + +Mr. CRAIG. It might have been 10 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this +girl say that she saw any person with a rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; no. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the +rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. On the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the +west end of the south side, or the west side? + +Mr. CRAIG. The west end of the south side. + +Mr. BELIN. Of the sixth floor? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he point out the window to you? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. From the west corner, where would this window have been? +Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. It was the--uh--the second window from the corner. + +They were walking, you know, back and forth. + +Mr. BELIN. He said that the two men were walking back and forth? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is +located near you, is it not? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south +side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows. + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have been--when you say "the second window from +the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but +the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second +pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember that now. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the +rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later +and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man +with the rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle +was there? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw +the man with the rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. I believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last +time he looked up there. + +Mr. BELIN. And about how long was that before the shots were fired? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about 15 +minutes before the motorcade arrived. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up +there to just see the one man. He just said--uh--a few minutes later he +looked back up. + +Mr. BELIN. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man +with the rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. Just the one man. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle? + +Mr. CRAIG. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking +out the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say how far the man was from the window? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; huh-uh. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the +window? + +Mr. CRAIG. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead. +You know, straight out. + +Mr. BELIN. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would +this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a +position to hold a weapon? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to +Officer Lewis for interrogation. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis--(spelling) +L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you left this young couple? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting +that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them--all +the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him +over to officer Lewis, was probably--uh--3 minutes--3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. Because--uh--I took him immediately up there to him when he +told me what he'd seen. + +Mr. BELIN. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from +that School Book Depository Building--do you know? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. I don't--uh--I don't recall that. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off +in any way the entrance or the building--the School Book Depository +Building--or not? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; no. I didn't notice that. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice that? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the +assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to +Sheriff Lemmy Lewis? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, it was about--well, I guess, 12 minutes--10, 12 minutes. +Something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just +observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to +someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to +Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy +Walthers--(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal +investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the +south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed--walked down +the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet +might have hit. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off +the south curb of Elm? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So, +we checked it. + +Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted +bullet? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were +searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone +whistle. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you +had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this +whistle? + +Mr. CRAIG. Fourteen or 15 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Fourteen or 15 minutes? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this, you mean, after the shooting? + +Mr. CRAIG. After the--from the time I heard the first shot. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You heard someone whistle? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the +hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in +front of it. He was on the south side of it. + +Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension +of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right; right. + +Mr. BELIN. And where was he with relation to the west side of the +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the +west corner--the southwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the +building? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right +in front of the building there? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under +the underpass? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +And then what did you see happen? + +Mr. CRAIG. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, +coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in +line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the +hill at the man running down. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from +me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station +wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both +of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the +street. And--uh--they were gone before I could---- + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the station wagon head? + +Mr. CRAIG. West on Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Under the triple underpass? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward +the station wagon? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five +eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown +sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been +in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue +trousers---- + +Mr. BELIN. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. + +And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful +hurry. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the man who was driving the car? + +Mr. CRAIG. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He +was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a +thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker +type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came +out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short +jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think +that he was a Negro? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I don't--I didn't get a real good look at him. But my +first glance at him--I was more interested in the man coming down the +hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what your opinion is today? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I--I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough +look at him. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind and what color station wagon was it? + +Mr. CRAIG. It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me. + +Mr. BELIN. What model or make was it? + +Mr. CRAIG. I thought it was a Nash. + +Mr. BELIN. Why would you think it was a Nash? + +Mr. CRAIG. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. +And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that +type luggage rack. + +Mr. BELIN. A Nash Rambler--is that what you're referring to? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you +know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not? + +Mr. CRAIG. It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the +numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle +where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. +But--uh--I'm sure it was a Texas plate. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this incident that you can recall? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; not that---- + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, then--uh, I went back up to the front of the School +Book Depository--rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed +off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the +doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it. + +Mr. BELIN. How long would this have been after the shots were fired? + +Mr. CRAIG. I'd say nearly 20 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. CRAIG. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of +the building. At that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the +building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building. + +So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights +and took them back over to them. + +Then, I went up on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you go up on the sixth floor? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of +the city officers, if I'm not mistaken. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. CRAIG. So, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty +cartridges were found. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found? + +Mr. CRAIG. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on +the floor. + +Mr. BELIN. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying +on the floor? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I +was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the +southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did +someone yell--or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells." + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the +shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a +bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the +area, I just went back across. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not +mistaken. + +Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that? + +Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper +bag. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long? + +Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of. + +Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you +remember seeing, or not? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells? + +Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the +window---- + +Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south? + +Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the +shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I +recall, about a foot. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at +all--or, don't you recall? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there? + +Mr. CRAIG. I saw three. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you +know? + +Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know? + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window? + +Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were +found? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and +we didn't want to stir up anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer +Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city +officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You +know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do after that? + +Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went +to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to +search west. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got +nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone +with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered? + +Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was +standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on +the floor. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you +describe which way the boxes were? + +Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the +weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, +and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda +back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed +kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be +hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off +where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em. + +Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that +the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would +call a rectangular "O", so to speak? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to +speak? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I +looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look +straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Do you remember who else came over? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers; +Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some +of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification +man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take +pictures of the weapon. + +Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found +lying there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that +window before this? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; no. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that +you feel might be important? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got +the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed +there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back +downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from +the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon +up and handed it to Will Fritz. + +And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the +School Building was missing up until the time you left? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect. + +Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of +with regard to the shooting? + +Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting +of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but---- + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; no. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's +Office? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over +there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, +you know. + +Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run +down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't +recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, +when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's +shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were +trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the +assassin. + +So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had +run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked +to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a +description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up +as a suspect. + +And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at +Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do? + +Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 +or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him +what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his +office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair +behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know +him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the +office. + +And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," +it was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium +brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he +was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he +was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was +shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all. + +Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt? + +Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white +T-shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one +side. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the +suspect say? + +Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What +about this station wagon?" + +And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs +to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into +this. She had nothing to do with it." + +And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, +"All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you +leave from the scene." + +And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you +people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he +said, "Everybody will know who I am now." + +And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially +out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain +Fritz. + +Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his +trousers as he leaned over the desk? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of +forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) +forward. + +Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, +"This was the man,"--or words to that effect? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more. + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more? + +Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station +wagon there? + +Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. CRAIG. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the +suspect about this incident before you came, do you? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this +interrogation at which you were present? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and +give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that +was outside the office. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you +think might be important that we haven't discussed here? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later +that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage +rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to +the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I +believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we +chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this +young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was +taken that we haven't recorded here? + +Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our +conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to +the best of your recollection? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any +of the railroad employees. + +Mr. BELIN. That's right. + +Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your +story was before we sat down to take the deposition? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the +deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want +to sign it? + +Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this +taking of this deposition? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Anything else you can think of, sir? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down +here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your, +also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back +there. + +Mr. CRAIG. Okay. + +Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much. + +One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this +before, but I want to doublecheck it. + +When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he +say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they +were white or colored and he said white. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how +much of them he saw? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the +windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, +5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or +anything like that? + +Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give. + +Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing? + +Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, +but the other man he wasn't sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there +was only one man up there then. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people +in any other windows? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over +the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, +looking out. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on +the sixth floor? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that +particular floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor +down; which would be the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth +floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? +Or don't you remember? + +Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that +floor, or did he say that he did not? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you? + +Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these +two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it? + +Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just +the man with the rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 +minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you +say that he told you he saw only one man? + +Mr. CRAIG. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say +about what he saw after that? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over +to Lemmy Lewis. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else +discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he +thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report +it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball +stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd +like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks +familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward +the Rambler. + +If you'll just wait a minute here please sir. + +(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a +shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the +suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running +toward the station wagon? + +Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit +150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing? + +Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a +jacket? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man +running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, +darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what? + +Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but +they looked blue to me. + +Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157? + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color. + +Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when +Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket? + +Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at +Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards +the station wagon? + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact +that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you---- + +Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it +was the same person. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR. + +The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand +and be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, +is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris. + +Mr. BELIN. Texas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama. + +Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth. + +Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to farming? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there. + +Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated +Railroad Co. + +Mr. BELIN. For the what? + +Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a +coordinated deal. + +Mr. BELIN. What are you doing? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers. + +Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to +farming. How long did you farm? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago. + +Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn. + +Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in +spare times for about 8 years. + +Mr. BELIN. For the same place? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas? + +Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it? + +Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the +courthouse. + +Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our +place is. + +Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town. + +Mr. BELIN. Just all over town? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday, +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just +outside, you might say, of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. With whom? + +Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out. + +Mr. BELIN. You had walked out? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming. + +Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to +where I could get a better view, as a fellow says. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot. + +Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And was that---- + +Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or +shots at all? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner +of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block. + +Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that +is? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade? + +Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the +only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something +like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed +that, but I never heard no shots. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from? + +Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the +other side? + +Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do +you remember, offhand? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was +nearing there, I know that. + +Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade +was to be going by there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12. + +Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. O'clock? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Before 12? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot +him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place. + +Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the +place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up? + +Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that. + +Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering +the place? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was +looking up that way at all times. + +Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book +Depository by way of the rear exit? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been +some shooting? + +Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then. + +Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the +south? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they +all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had +happened over there. + +I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the +policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and +the side door with guns. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened +there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for +5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to +the building at all, or just stand there? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk +closer? + +Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or +not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry? + +Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or +expect what was taking place. + +Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if +you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you +can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly +to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either +way. + +Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now. + +Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down +again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go, +assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you +have a right to come in and read it. + +Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go. + +Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it? + +Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all for now. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK + +The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ROMACK. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney +from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on +the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we +asked you to come down to have your deposition taken. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record? + +Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack. + +Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack? + +Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you? + +Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Go to school here? + +Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college. + +Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What college? + +Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school? + +Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war. + +Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go---- + +Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out, +and went to East Texas State after the war. + +Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? + +Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took +boot training in San Diego. + +I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor +and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through +the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then +returned back home. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States? + +Mr. ROMACK. March 1946. + +Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where +were you stationed? + +Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We +were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out +eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All +we had was the big ramp. + +Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back? + +Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in +the back. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Went to St. Louis and bought me an automobile, and just I +was a boy. I was the boy about 6 months, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Then I entered school, East Texas State Teachers College. + +Mr. BELIN. You went there about a year? + +Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year, I would say, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? + +Mr. ROMACK. I got married once along the route, and I was married about +30 days. + +Then I came to Dallas in 1947. I guess it was 1947, or 1948, I forget +just when I did come to Dallas. It was along in there. + +Mr. BELIN. And you have been in Dallas ever since? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you honorably discharged? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes; I surely was. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas? + +Mr. ROMACK. I went to work with a motor freight carrier. They are known +as ICX today. They were Miller & Miller Motor Freight at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them? + +Mr. ROMACK. Drove a truck. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that? + +Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Went back to East Texas, and my home, and piddled around +for a short while. + +Then I came back to Dallas. And what did I do along in there? In 1949, +I went to work for the Cotton Belt Railroad. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? + +Mr. ROMACK. Until April, I believe, of 1955. I know it was in 1955. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you generally do when you were with the Cotton Belt? + +Mr. ROMACK. I did all the railroad work during that time. I mean, I +have been a billing clerk, and I have been a foreman, and I have been +checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and I worked out in +the yards, and did quite a few jobs. + +Mr. BELIN. You left them in 1955, and then what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with +him in a service station, Conoco Service Station. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. ROMACK. Stayed there a year, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with Strickland Transportation Co. as a +dock foreman. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you with them? + +Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 6 or 7 months. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with an air freight concern out here at +Love Field Drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking +up air freight for, I would say, 7 or 8 months there, maybe. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co. + +Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today. + +Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them? + +Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail +trucks and pickup and delivery service. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963? + +Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by +east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street? + +Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but +the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it, +which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together +originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind +of walked off ahead of him. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk? + +Mr. ROMACK. Toward the School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street? + +Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they +are going to split Ross and Houston Street up. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking at at Houston Street? + +Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes, +sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking? + +Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in +October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar +with a rifle shot. + +Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear? + +Mr. ROMACK. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from? + +Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but +it wasn't on my side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low? + +Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that +question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would +say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I +can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it +blowing from your back, sir? + +Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face. + +Mr. BELIN. Into your face. + +How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you +heard the shots? + +Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or +from the front of Elm Street? + +Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together? + +Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4 +seconds apart. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was +closer than another one in time? + +Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They +rang out pretty fast. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you own one? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be +operated with a bolt action rifle? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way? + +Mr. ROMACK. I have a--it is a--I can't answer that really. + +Mr. BELIN. What caliber? + +Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06. + +Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is +either an Enfleld or a Springfield. + +Mr. BELIN. Bolt action? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot +your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots? + +Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot; +no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere +and missed him one time out of four. + +Mr. BELIN. How far was it? + +Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a +distance. + +Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he +was 100 yards away or else 50 yards? + +Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would. + +Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a +person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as +quickly as you heard those rifle sounds? + +Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense +that within my own self. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down +towards the--which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked +down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade +was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a +policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if +somebody was running out of the back of this building. + +Mr. BELIN. What building? + +Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay +but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back. + +Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over +watching the building for the man. + +Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching? + +Mr. ROMACK. The back part. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much +as anyone could see. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back +dock, aren't there? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School +Book Depository? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman +leave? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, +and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building +was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or +anyone. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station? + +Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then? + +Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high--the +city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, +and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post? + +Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what +we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we---- + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then. + +Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time? + +Mr. ROMACK. Pardon? + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there? + +Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up +the back. They came in the front, all--most of them. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way? + +Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything +about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here +at the very entrance, and just stood there. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up +from the street to the dock on the north side of the building? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. See anyone else? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad +cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time +that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally I +quit watching anything particular. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you +quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 +minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there, +but I wasn't particularly watching. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you +said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after +the shots, you watched the back door of the building? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave +the building? + +Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter +the building other than a police officer? + +Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway +going to this Houston Street dock? + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX--you are asking prior to before he +got there? + +Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first? + +Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards. + +Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building? + +Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there? + +Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the +building, or 40. That is where he parked his car. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX? + +Mr. ROMACK. Oh. I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my +wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed +again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you do that? + +Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work. + +Mr. BELIN. What month was it? + +Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean March? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March? + +Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in +from work. It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a +paper up in the left-hand corner. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand? + +Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper? + +Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have +been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination +and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with +about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset +me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about? + +Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above +him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he +also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which +was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper +this was on? + +Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was +on the front page in the left corner of the page. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was +it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and +that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was +watching. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was +that someone said that someone else was running? + +Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book +Depository? + +Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them? + +Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I +am telling you right now today. + +Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you +before this morning? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you +came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember +who called me. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell +you to come down here? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to you about the facts that we were +talking about now? + +Mr. ROMACK. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the +Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure. + +Mr. ROMACK. It was. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are +stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building +towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots? + +Mr. ROMACK. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the +first 5 minutes after the shots? + +Mr. ROMACK. That is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that +you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination? + +Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time +to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your +cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact +them for this information. + +Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that--I called an attorney that I know and +talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him +I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just +didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he +felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know. + +And that is when I went ahead and made my statement. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come +back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to +read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading +it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington, +whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us. + +Mr. ROMACK. I will waive. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then? + +Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much. + +Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LEE E. BOWERS, JR. + +The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. + +Mr. BOWERS. Lee E. Bowers, Jr. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? + +Mr. BOWERS. 10508 Maplegrove Lane. + +Mr. BALL. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BOWERS. Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. And would you tell me something about yourself, where you +were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or +occupation? + +Mr. BOWERS. I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of +my life except when I was in the Navy, at the age of 17 to 21, and I +was away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended +Southern Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked +for the railroad 15 years and was a self-employed builder, as well +as--on the side. And the first of this year when I went to work as +business manager for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and +convalescent home and rent properties. + +Mr. BALL. What railroad did you work for? + +Mr. BOWERS. Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating +railroads. + +Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union +Terminal Co.? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing for them? + +Mr. BOWERS. I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal, +operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains. + +Mr. BALL. Through railroad yards? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work? + +Mr. BOWERS. 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground +at which you worked in the tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet. + +Mr. BALL. You worked about 14 feet above the ground? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the tower was arranged so that you could see out? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each +corner. It is windows on all four sides. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. BOWERS. It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, +I really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School +Depository Building, or less. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of +the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm? + +Mr. BOWERS. Approximately the same. + +Mr. BALL. Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under +the triple underpass? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir; considerably. + +Mr. BALL. And the base of your tower is about the same height as the +triple underpass, isn't it? + +Mr. BOWERS. Approximately. + +Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple +underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your +description--you described it as a triple underpass. + +Mr. BOWERS. It is just a local connotation for it since there are three +streets that run under it. + +Mr. BALL. I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your +tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight +tracks. + +Mr. BALL. That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that +pass in front of your tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and +split off to various railroad yards---- + +Mr. BALL. And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower, +aren't they? + +Mr. BOWERS. Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all +directions, I mean, they are both north and south. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you? + +Mr. BOWERS. That's correct. + +Mr. BALL. Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area +around between your tower and Elm Street? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by +police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning +traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around +could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of +years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the +area. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice any cars around there? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time +from around noon until the time of the shooting. + +Mr. BALL. Came in where? + +Mr. BOWERS. They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the +extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, +and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere. + +Mr. BALL. There is parking area behind the School Depository, between +that building and your tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking +area for the employees. + +Mr. BALL. And the first came along that you noticed about what time of +day? + +Mr. BOWERS. I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was +approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off. + +Mr. BALL. And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was +it? + +Mr. BOWERS. The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down +across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to +the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or +was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he +could, the same outlet he came into. + +Mr. BALL. The place where Elm dead ends? + +Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was +the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't +watch him. + +Mr. BALL. What was the description of that car? + +Mr. BOWERS. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station +wagon with out-of-State license. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what State? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I +think, if I looked at a list. + +Mr. BALL. And, it had something else, some bumper stickers? + +Mr. BOWERS. Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, +and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think. + +Mr. BALL. And, did you see another car? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately +12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time +differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black +Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or +something that gave the appearance of that at least. + +Mr. BALL. How could you tell that? + +Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and +he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very +close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have? + +Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license. + +Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street? + +Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the +School Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it +departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than +the first car. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see another car? + +Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven +or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 +Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. +It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to +the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male. + +Mr. BALL. What did it do? + +Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he +circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt +to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and +slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository +Building. + +Mr. BALL. Then did he leave? + +Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just +above the assassination site. + +Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice? + +Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it +pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy. + +Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there? + +Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm +and Houston from the tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could +see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, +then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed +the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again. + +Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street +from Main, did you? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that. + +Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it? + +Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment. + +Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where? + +Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and +Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? + +Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two +very close together. Also reverberation from the shots. + +Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the +sound or what direction it came from, I mean? + +Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School +Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the +tower as to sounds coming from those various places? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 +years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School +Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of +sounds occurring in either of those two locations. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you +heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository +Building or the triple underpass? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not. + +Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in +hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository +Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from +the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago? + +Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a +reverberation which takes place from either location. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass +before? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often. + +Because trucks backfire and various occurrences. + +Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School +Depository when they were building there? + +Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as +sandblasted the outside of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high +ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the +underpass toward the mouth of the underpass? + +Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, +there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly +heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, +about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. + +Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately? + +Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and +gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew. + +Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing? + +Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, +and following the caravan as it came down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass? + +Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One +facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad +employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two +welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also +a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders. + +Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those +people? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after. + +Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston +Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground? + +Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this +same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates +a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those +custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a +slight distance back. + +Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking? + +Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly +towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my +recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative +masonry wall in the area. + +Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see +the car? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think +that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last +shot. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after +the shot? + +Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some +commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman +who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline. + +Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street? + +Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some +reason, which I did not know. + +Mr. BALL. He came up---- + +Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his +motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. How did he get up? + +Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there? + +Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the +motorcycle. + +Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people? + +Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and +where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this. + +Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time? + +Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not +say. + +The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The +one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was. + +Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by +that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the +commotion? + +Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something +out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred +in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted +my eye for some reason, which I could not identify. + +Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it? + +Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---- + +Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high +ground at the tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction. +One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came +down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another +line--another large group went across the triangular area between +Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of +them all the way up. + +Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred +policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower? + +Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the +trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients +taken on at least one train. + +Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your +deposition was taken, haven't we? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you +about that you think of? + +Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall. + +Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you? + +Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have +told the city police, and also told to the FBI. + +Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the +deposition? + +Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, +look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. + +What do you wish? + +Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to. + +Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature? + +Mr. BOWERS. Fine. + +Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN + +The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MARTIN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please? + +Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address? + +Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer. + +Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department? + +Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and +where you were raised and where you went to school? + +Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to +school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from +there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for +approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in +the Police Department in June 1953. + +Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and +worked in the radio patrol division. + +Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President +Kennedy. + +Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning +and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30 +minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field. + +Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position? + +Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of +President Kennedy. + +Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer +riding with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis. + +Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were---- + +Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about +the speed of the President's car? + +Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made +the turn onto Elm Street from Houston. + +Mr. BALL. From Houston? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the +same speed? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would +say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour. + +Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade +slow down? + +Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed +of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour. + +Mr. BALL. What was your speed? + +Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler +motorcycle? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the +position of that motorcycle? + +Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine. + +Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of +Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there. + +Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow? + +Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough +that I could notice. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to +be a shot. + +Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with +reference to the President's car? + +Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car. + +Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and +then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position? + +Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and +approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear. + +Mr. BALL. Of the President's car? + +Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car. + +Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service +car? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because +one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I +can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on +the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, +and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car. + +Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with +reference to your right or to your left? + +Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he? + +Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing +him after the shots. + +Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you +would have? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot +closer than I was. + +Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from +each other? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that. + +Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the +direction which the shot was coming from? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it +was coming--any of the shots. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right. + +Mr. BALL. After which shot? + +Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot. + +Mr. BALL. You looked to your right? + +Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right. + +Mr. BALL. What did you look at? + +Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle +also, or did you turn your body? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever +turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west +on Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot +and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At +the time he had no expression on his face. + +Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository +Building? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building. + +Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any +opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last +two shots--from which direction they came? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was. + +Mr. BALL. From what direction? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that +particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind +as we turned off of Houston onto Elm. + +Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then? + +Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston? + +Mr. BALL. No; after the shots? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of +the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the +pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room +to ride in there. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see the President? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first +shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do? + +Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. +The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of +the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the +first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the +emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway +down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of +people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to +park cars and just generally work traffic around there. + +Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I +noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and +then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on +the left side of my helmet. + +Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could +you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of +my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had +spots of blood on it. + +Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the +helmet there besides blood? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of +flesh. + +Mr. BALL. What about your uniform? + +Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my +uniform. + +Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the +clavicle region? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side. + +Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what spots were there? + +Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield? + +Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also +on the motor. + +Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches? + +Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was +not very noticeable unless you looked at it. + +Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other +people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed +it. + +Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with +us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting. + +Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the +windshield of his motorcycle? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your +windshield? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. + +Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. + +Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the +cowling on the motorcycle. + +Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought +it was rifle fire? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it. + +Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose? + +Mr. MARTIN. I just returned. + +Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car +was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car +when you heard the first shot? + +Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10 +at that particular time, about the time of the shots. + +Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble +keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and +10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in +the motorcade? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the +car you were to keep? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were those instructions? + +Mr. MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past +the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear +of his car, about the rear bumper. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Officer. + +This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you +wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the +Commission without it. + +It's your option. + +What would you like to do? + +Mr. MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as I saw it +that day. + +Mr. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then? + +Mr. MARTIN. That would be fine. + +Mr. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature. + +Mr. MARTIN. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. + +Mr. MARTIN. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS + +The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. STERN. Will you stand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HARGIS. I do. + +Mr. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence +address. + +Mr. HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. STERN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HARGIS. Police officer. + +Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months. + +Mr. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle---- + +Mr. HARGIS. Division. + +Mr. STERN. Division? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22d? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I was. + +Mr. STERN. In what position? + +Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine. + +Mr. STERN. At what part of the President's car? + +Mr. HARGIS. Well---- + +Mr. STERN. Front, or rear? + +Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear. + +Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy? + +Mr. HARGIS. Right. + +Mr. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the +limousine turned into Elm Street? + +Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm +Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on +Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but +the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I +was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time +the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was +sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised +expression on his face. + +Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally's? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot +first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what +he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, +the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up +like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know +whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so +fast. + +Mr. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots? + +Mr. HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, +everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 +more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. + +Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with +the shot you have just described? + +Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me? + +Mr. STERN. Yes. + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the +car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed +like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and +kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the +Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or +"get going,"---- + +Mr. STERN. Someone inside---- + +Mr. HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I +remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear +and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of +the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential +limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to +the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. + +Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time +regarding the source of the shots? + +Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next +to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were +coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said +that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, +because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just +a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. +Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been +from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary +place that could have been shot from. + +Mr. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots. + +Mr. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your +motorcycle? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh---- + +Mr. STERN. Where? + +Mr. HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side +of Elm Street. + +Mr. STERN. And then what did you do? + +Mr. HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad +overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then +I looked---- + +Mr. STERN. People on the overpass? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess. +They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd. +I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening +or what--and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository +Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building +was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew +where the shots were coming from, so---- + +Mr. STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm +Street? Do you recall their behavior? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground +and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, +trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as +to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was. + +Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this +kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a +better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around +that place by that time. I knew it couldn't have come from the county +courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over +there. + +Mr. STERN. Did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the +overpass to the concrete wall? + +Mr. HARGIS. No. + +Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street? + +Mr. HARGIS. No, no; I don't remember any picket fence. + +Mr. STERN. Did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the +incline, or around the Depository? Anything out of the ordinary besides +people running? + +Mr. HARGIS. No; I didn't. That is what got me. + +Mr. STERN. So, at that point you were still uncertain as to the +direction of the shots? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh. + +Mr. STERN. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. HARGIS. Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas +Book Depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, +didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were +looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. At the +time I didn't know, but about the only activity I could see was on the +bridge, on the railroad bridge so---- + +Mr. STERN. What sort of activity was that? + +Mr. HARGIS. Well, the people that were up there were just trying to get +a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or +in a confused fashion, and I thought maybe some of them had seen who +did the shooting and the rifle. + +Mr. STERN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, +and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side +in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and +since I didn't see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the +second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway and went up around to +see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that +way, and I couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, +so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it +seemed like the activity was centered around the Texas School Book +Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants +or lieutenants, I don't know, "Don't let anyone out of the Texas School +Book Depository," and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, +which was at the southwest corner. + +Mr. STERN. And you remained there until you were relieved? + +Mr. HARGIS. Yes. + +Mr. STERN. Anything else that you haven't told us that you think is +relevant to our inquiry? + +Mr. HARGIS. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. + +The reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for +you to read and sign if you care to. Otherwise, you may waive your +right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to +the Commission, whichever you prefer. It is entirely your option. + +Mr. HARGIS. Well; it really doesn't make any difference. It is more or +less what you all think is best. + +Mr. STERN. It's entirely up to you. + +Mr. HARGIS. Well, how long will it be until she fixes it up? + +Mr. STERN. Well, off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. STERN. On the record. + +Mr. HARGIS. All right. Well, just go ahead and I will just let you go +ahead and send it in without the signature. + +Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD + +Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Thirty-two. + +Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Finished high school. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into the service. + +Mr. BELIN. What branch? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Air Force. + +Mr. BELIN. How long? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Four years to the day. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have an honorable discharge? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. What year was that? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. 1955. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own. + +Mr. BELIN. Then went back to the department? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential +motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Went through town with him? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car. + +Mr. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many +cars back. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M. L. Baker was riding? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me. + +Mr. BELIN. So you would be riding several cars back, generally, from +the President's car, is that correct? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was one more close than the other one? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, +it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real +close. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the +scene of the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. There on Main Street. + +Mr. BELIN. On Main Street? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. What position of Elm Street? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street. + +Mr. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where +you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on +Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm +Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. +Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple +of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump +the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get +over. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad +yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north +or south of Elm? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the--it consist of +going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in +the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle--it +was on the street--to the radio. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I +presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was. + +Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm +Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me +as to the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. What did they say? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. One stated that he had seen the President when the first +shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he +stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first +shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was +fired, he went completely out of sight. + +Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the +time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple +underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and +said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did +have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just +to the right of his nose. + +Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the +Presidential car at the time of the shot? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back. + +Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of +the President's car at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west. + +Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to +him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't +know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from +this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book +Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say why? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. He said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and +there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, +but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was +definite that the shots did come from there. + +And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that +complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that +time, I called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas +School Book Depository Building off. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon? + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the +dispatcher that day? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142. + +Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to +be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., +there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were +fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz +Rent A Car sign on top." + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words. + +Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information +you can." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository +Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front +of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were +talked to. + +Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no. + +Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to them at all? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear +location of it, which would be---- + +Mr. BELIN. To the back door? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was +standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he +said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. + +And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they +had not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at +the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, +and helped them search the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was +still on the sixth when they found the rifle--on the fifth. + +Mr. BELIN. On the fifth? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry. + +Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the +floor there, though. It was just a big open floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like +that? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Which window? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. South side or east side? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south. + +Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a +lunch bag. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was that? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle. + +Mr. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half +or more long? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. What, tape? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown +paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up. + +Mr. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately +rifle length. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east +or west of the window, if you remember? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the +southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the +southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that +corner, if you remember? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast +corner. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the +window? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the +corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a +corner. + +Mr. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner +[indicating in room]? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of +the window from the corner. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Not under the window? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast +corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. That is all. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the--when you heard a rifle +had been found? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. On the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to +that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other +one where the shells was found. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be +on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant +wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle +was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while +after that. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went +downstairs to the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. On Saturday I was on my way to Colorado. + +Mr. BELIN. So you weren't around on Sunday either? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. On Sunday when the other shooting was taking place, I +was knee deep in snow in Colorado. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, whether +I have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the +assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No, nothing; I was out of town. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. We thank you very much for your cooperation +here. You have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this +deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive +the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it +directly to us, whatever you want to do? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. It makes no difference. + +Mr. BELIN. It makes no difference to us either. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Just waive the signing. I don't know when I can get back +over here. + +(Officer Haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the +street at the Republic National Bank Building to answer the following +question.) + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Haygood, I will continue your deposition with one +more question, if you would, and you are still under oath. + +You mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two +people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at +12:35 p.m., under your Call No. 142. + +Is that correct? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice on there another transmission at 12:37 p.m. Could +you read what the transcript has there. + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, this part of the deposition I covered it a while +ago but I gave you, is when I called to have the Texas School Book +Depository covered there. That is one of the witnesses I had that +believed the shot came from that location. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you said there? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. It says, "Get men to cover the building, Texas School Book +Depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on Elm Street +looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in +the upper right hand corner." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you say that? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then the transmission made to you, 531 to 142 calling, "How +many do you have there?" + +And you made a response which is? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. "One guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and +another seen the President slump." + +Mr. BELIN. Were there two more people in addition to the one that you +saw? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. They are still the same people I was referring to back on +the transmission that I made. + +Mr. BELIN. How many different people did you talk to? One that was +possibly hit by a ricochet? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Piece of concrete. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he the one that saw the President slump? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there someone that saw the President slump, and a +third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper +right-hand corner? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall how many it was. There was quite a chaos +there at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if there were two or more than two? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the description of the man +that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the +upper right-hand corner? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was white or Negro? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. He was a white man. + +Mr. BELIN. Man or woman? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Man. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was young or medium or old? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. That would be a guess on my part. I don't recall. He was +just a medium age. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit? + +Mr. HAYGOOD. Best I remember, just sports clothes. I mean, it consisted +of no tie or coat. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay, thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF E. D. BREWER + +The testimony of E. D. Brewer was taken at 10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BREWER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name. + +Mr. BREWER. E. D. Brewer. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brewer? + +Mr. BREWER. Police officer for the City of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. BREWER. I am 32 years old. + +Mr. BELIN. You go to school here in Dallas? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. BREWER. I graduated from high school. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I got married and went to work for the Dallas Power & +Light. About a year later I went into the U.S. Coast Guard and stayed 3 +years. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I went to work for the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them about 10 years now? + +Mr. BREWER. Since December 1954. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? + +Mr. BREWER. I was riding solo motorcycle, in the Presidential motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. What position were you in in the motorcade? + +Mr. BREWER. I was in the front. + +Mr. BELIN. By which car? Near which car? + +Mr. BREWER. If I remember correctly, the President's car was about--the +Chief of Police was in a car immediately in front. The President's car +was behind him, I believe, if I remember correctly, and I was in front +of the Chief's car. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in front of the Chief's car? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in the lead part of the motorcade? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was the front vehicle. There was four or five of us +up there in a line across the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how fast you were going as you went down +Main Street there towards Houston? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir; not exactly. The speed of it would vary +considerably according to the crowd of people on each side of the +street as to how we could get through. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you remember how fast you were going as you turned north +on Houston? + +Mr. BREWER. It was in my assignment to leave my position there and go +ahead of the motorcade as we were approaching Houston on Main Street, +and before we got to Houston Street I left. I pulled out ahead of them, +and following the same route, went down to the intersection or to where +the motorcade was to come onto Stemmons Freeway. + +Mr. BELIN. So your speed wasn't necessarily accurate with the +motorcade, is that correct, sometimes? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I had pulled away from the motorcade on Main +Street and proceeded on down to the Stemmons Freeway. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot? + +Mr. BREWER. I never did hear any shots. + +Mr. BELIN. When was the first time you learned that something was wrong? + +Mr. BREWER. I was on Stemmons Freeway there where you come onto it, +where the motorcade come onto Stemmons. Went under Stemmons and around +to the right and onto Stemmons, and I was on Stemmons Expressway off of +my motorcycle there on the expressway when I believe I heard it on the +radio first about the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you to stop traffic on the expressway? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was to assist some other officers in stopping +traffic on the expressway to allow the motorcade to get onto it. + +Mr. BELIN. So you were in the process of stopping traffic, waiting for +the motorcade to come by, when you heard something on your motorcycle +radio? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the so-called underpass there, or +overpass there? + +Mr. BREWER. I was to the north of where the railroad track goes over. +Let's see, the railroad track, where the railroad tracks go over +Stemmons Expressway. I was to the north of that. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me try and get a sketch. Officer, I just stepped out of +the room to come back in and bring a map of Dallas, which I believe +is similar to Commission's Exhibit 371, which I am going to mark here +Deposition Exhibit A, which we will call it E. D. Brewer deposition +Exhibit A. I have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of +Dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, +Downtown Dallas, and this is towards the top of the reverse side of the +map. + +I am going to ask you to look at this map. You see the place here, it +looks like Dedley Plaza, Main Street runs into that, which is Houston, +then you turned north on Houston and Elm, and then you take Elm? + +Mr. BREWER. Left on Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. Left on Elm. You went under the railroad underpass there, +which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then I am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point +pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. Just mark it +parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up. + +Mr. BREWER. (Marks on map.) + +Down Elm under the railroad tracks to Stemmons, under Stemmons to the +right, headed north parallel to Stemmons on that entranceway, under +that T & P Railroad, and onto Stemmons Expressway, and just north of +the T & P Railroad. + +Mr. BELIN. Now is that where you stopped your motorcycle? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to put an arrow pointing to the spot that you +stopped, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, that is the spot right there. + +Mr. BELIN. You have it marked kind of with an "X"? + +Mr. BREWER. To the best of my knowledge, that is right where we was at. + +Mr. BELIN. Was another officer there at the time when you got there? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What were they doing? + +Mr. BREWER. We all proceeded to stop the traffic northbound on Stemmons. + +Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to do that? + +Mr. BREWER. So that the motorcade which was headed in that direction at +that time could get onto Stemmons and wouldn't be interfered with by +the rest of the traffic. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you when you first learned of the +shooting or that something was wrong? + +Mr. BREWER. At that location. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you learn about it? + +Mr. BREWER. I believe it was on the radio, we heard it. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. On the police radio. Well, when it was determined +that--right after we heard that on the radio, something about it on +the radio, we heard that they were enroute to Parkland Hospital, +and immediately after that they came by us and came onto Stemmons +Expressway and went by us in the direction of Parkland Hospital, the +motorcade, part of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. We heard that the shots had came from the Texas School +Book Depository Building, and at that time I got on my motorcycle and +proceeded back up to the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I went in the building. + +Mr. BELIN. You went inside the building? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; there was officers all around the building at the +time I got there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got in the building? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, with some other officers, we was part of the officers +that was searching the building floor by floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what was your call number that day? + +Mr. BREWER. 137. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit +A, which appears to be a transcript of a police log of the Dallas +Police Department, you see this exhibit here? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Your call number that day was? + +Mr. BREWER. 137. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice here that the first time there appears Call No. +137, after 12:30 is at 12:38 p.m. + +There is a call from 137 to 531. You want to read what it says there? + +Mr. BREWER. "A witness says he saw 'em pull the weapon from the +window off the second floor on the southeast corner of the Depository +Building." + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have been the second floor or the second floor +from the top? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any witness talking to you at all? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said? + +Mr. BREWER. He said that he had saw him pull a weapon from the window +from that building. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what window he said? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't remember specifically which window he indicated, +but I immediately told that to the dispatcher and proceeded on up to +the building. + +Mr. BELIN. I see the conversation continues on the next page. The +dispatcher No. 531, to 137, "Do you have the building covered off?" + +And then you reply: + +Mr. BREWER. "I'm about three-fourths of a block away." + +Mr. BELIN. Is that where you were when this man---- + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now from the time you first heard that something was wrong, +you had taken your motorcycle and gone where? + +Mr. BREWER. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. You were on the Stemmons Freeway when you heard that +something was wrong, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went from Stemmons Freeway where? + +Mr. BREWER. Up to the Texas School Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stop anywhere along the way? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir; the only time that I stopped was when this guy +come up to me and told it to me, and then was gone. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you did stop then and talk to this one individual? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Which street were you on when you stopped? + +Mr. BREWER. I was proceeding back up Elm Street the wrong way on Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. About where were you when this one person talked that said +he saw him pull the weapon in? + +Mr. BREWER. I was down there about the triple underpass on Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean right under the triple underpass? + +Mr. BREWER. Or coming to it. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, coming to it? + +Mr. BREWER. From the west. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you have been on the west side of that? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, right there about that curb. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you left Stemmons Freeway, did you look up or around +to see if there was anything suspicious in that area? + +Mr. BREWER. We was all looking up in the railroad tracks from the west +side. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything at all? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir; we saw some people coming up there, but they +seemed to be up there looking. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you saw people up there searching? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running away? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. See anyone acting suspiciously by himself? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you left that area and came right down the wrong way, +you say, back to retrace your route, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then somewhere in the vicinity of the railroad underpass, +you were stopped by this one individual that you reported on the radio +log, is that correct? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether this man that you talked to was a +white male or a Negro? + +Mr. BREWER. He was a white man, the best of my memory. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else about him? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have any camera or anything? + +Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Now after this order to report to the School Book Depository +Building, what did you do? + +Mr. BREWER. I went there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. BREWER. Went in the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Which door? + +Mr. BREWER. By the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off by the time you got there? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were officers blocking everyone that was coming in, to +prohibit them from coming in and going out? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. BREWER. I went inside the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. BREWER. I proceeded to assist in the floor to floor search of the +building with some other officers. + +Mr. BELIN. What floor did you start on? + +Mr. BREWER. On the bottom floor. + +Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far up did you go? + +Mr. BREWER. We searched all of it before we quit. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, were you ever on the 6th floor? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on the sixth floor when you found anything there? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you find? + +Mr. BREWER. I was on the sixth floor when they found those spent cases +from the rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when they found them? + +Mr. BREWER. I don't know exactly. I was on the floor searching around +in among some boxes that were stacked up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Hear anyone say anything about cartridge cases or anything? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. Whoever found them turned around and let it be +known to one of the supervisor officers that he had found them, or that +they had been found over there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard the news? + +Mr. BREWER. I continued searching. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see? + +Mr. BREWER. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were they? + +Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window. + +Mr. BELIN. What window? + +Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south. + +Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window? + +Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten +piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BREWER. A drink bottle. + +Mr. BELIN. What bottle? + +Mr. BREWER. A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BREWER. In relation to what? + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner? + +Mr. BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was that? + +Mr. BREWER. It was there in the southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Under the window? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. To the left of it. To the east of it. + +Mr. BELIN. To the left as you faced the window? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the window come right up next to the corner there, do +you remember? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir; it didn't come up next to the corner. It was +offset. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you remember how far at all, or not? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir; I don't remember the exact distance of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was any part of the paper sack under the window, if you +remember or not? + +That long paper sack? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about what the sack looked like? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, it was assumed at the time that it was the sack that +the rifle was wrapped up in when it was brought into the building, and +it appeared that it could have been used for that. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you mean you assumed that before you found the rifle? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I suppose. That was discussed. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that was found around there or +not? + +Mr. BREWER. Not in that particular area. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything found anywhere else in the sixth floor? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. The rifle was found on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was that? + +Mr. BREWER. It was found in a northwest corner under some, in between +some boxes that were stacked up there at the head of the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far away from the area were you when you found the +rifle, if you remember? + +Mr. BREWER. Several feet from it. I don't remember exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the rifle? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was it located? + +Mr. BREWER. It was laying down low on the door or on the floor down +between some, a very narrow space where boxes were stacked up there, +and there was a space between the boxes, and it was laying down there +in between it, like it had been stuck in there hurriedly, and possibly +just before whoever laid it there went down the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you found of significance in the building at +all or not? + +Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do the rest of the afternoon? + +Mr. BREWER. Well, we proceeded to search the building after that, +and we spent, I don't know the exact amount of time we spent in the +building after that, but when Lieutenant Jack Revill was satisfied, we +went back downstairs and I went back out to my motorcycle and to my +immediate superior officer and received another assignment. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the +assassination that day? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sunday? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. My primary job was traffic control. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of +Officer Tippit's murder? + +Mr. BREWER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might in any +way be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting +of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. BREWER. Not that I can think of; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, I want to thank you very much for coming on down here. + +You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read the +deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and +have it sent directly to Washington, whichever you prefer. + +Mr. BREWER. It don't matter. Whichever you prefer. + +Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. + +Mr. BREWER. Okay, you send it on. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive the signing of it? + +Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF D. V. HARKNESS + +The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Your name, sir, would you please state? + +Mr. HARKNESS. D. V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. HARKNESS. 2123 San Pablo. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Sergeant of police. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Little over 17 years. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Forty-two. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. HARKNESS. High school. + +Mr. BELIN. High school graduate? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Went in the service for 4 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Army? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Coast Guard. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Coast Guard generally? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged. + +Mr. BELIN. Doing what? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my +discharge. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co. + +Mr. BELIN. As what? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Worked in the office in the purchasing department. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Went with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. Been there ever since? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty November 22, 1963? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Doing what? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field +along the parade route to Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.? + +Mr. HARKNESS. At Main and Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. On the east or west side of Houston? + +Mr. HARKNESS. West side of Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade come by? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know +what they call this area here. + +Mr. BELIN. Plaza. + +Mr. HARKNESS. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President +as he went west on Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard those noises? Did you know +they were shots, by the way? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow +down to almost a stop---- + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that? + +Mr. HARKNESS. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car +almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went +back to the intersection to get my motorcycle. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the +second and third shots? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings +down there. I couldn't tell. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the reverberations? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I went west on Main to observe the area between the +railroad tracks and Industrial. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you go down there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. By the way the people, when I went into this area, +everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that +the shots were coming into the cars. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean from some point in front of the cars? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that someone was? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did that person do that indicated that? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone +fleeing that area. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the +Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the +street from Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Again, I will have to--near the railroad track. + +Mr. BELIN. Behind the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down. + +Mr. BELIN. What you are really saying---- + +Mr. HARKNESS. This area. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a place between what would be the +extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual +extension of Elm? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; to the plaza area. + +Mr. BELIN. The plaza area? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you find there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he +saw the shots come from that building. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those +little pocket notebooks? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original +notation that you made? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you make that notation? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Immediately after the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that your own record that you have kept in your +possession since then? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. I turned---- + +Mr. BELIN. You turned what? + +Mr. HARKNESS. After I took his name and address and put this +information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel +motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, +and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit +A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you +were using on that day? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I believe 260. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at +12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What does it say there on that transcript? + +Mr. HARKNESS. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book +Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are +sealing off the building." + +Mr. BELIN. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off at that time? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around +it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not. + +Mr. BELIN. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Asked for a squad. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you after that to have the back part +sealed off? + +Mr. HARKNESS. The squad was arriving by the time I got off my +motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route. + +Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was +sealed off? + +Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two +other men. + +Mr. BELIN. You are talking about the back part of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the front part of the building? When was that +sealed off? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there. + +Mr. BELIN. By the time you got around to the front part of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I +went immediately to the back. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, as I understand the sequence, you first went +to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You tell me what happened then. + +Mr. HARKNESS. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this +witness. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. HARKNESS. So I took him to the car. + +Mr. BELIN. To Inspector Sawyer's car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front. + +Mr. BELIN. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. HARKNESS. And left the witness there and went around to the back. + +Mr. BELIN. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after +you left the witness in the car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in +the process of going to the car there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at +the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did +you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Well---- + +Mr. BELIN. The witness in the car, what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved +by a squad. + +Mr. BELIN. So you then went to the back of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him +there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he at his car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building +yet? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you don't know? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he +was standing there in front taking information. All the information was +being funneled to Inspector Sawyer. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you had a witness? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. In his car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you +told him that? + +Mr. HARKNESS. At that time? + +Mr. BELIN. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that +said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had +the front part of the building been sealed off yet? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It had already been sealed off? + +Mr. HARKNESS. There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they stopping people from going in and out? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and +talk to them. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out +of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the +building to make sure it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't +notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did +you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that +time? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people +around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I +couldn't say that. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went around to the back of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anyone around in the back when you got there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get +them identified. They told me they were Secret Service. + +Mr. BELIN. Then did you stay around the back of the building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer--helped to +get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some +freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search +all freight cars that were leaving the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we +pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean some transients? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes. + +Mr. BELIN. That were on the freight car? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long +freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. + +We had several officers working in that area. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious +people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. + +Mr. BELIN. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Were all those questioned? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned. + +Mr. BELIN. Any guns of any kind found? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what +he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and +asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was +an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw +the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did he say? + +Mr. HARKNESS. He told me that the shots came from the window under the +ledge. + +Mr. BELIN. Of what building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Of the School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Now have you since gone back to that building? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know where the ledge is? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million +times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge +would be? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Well---- + +Mr. BELIN. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you +do know, I would like to have you state. + +Mr. HARKNESS. I believe that it---- + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Between what floors is the ledge? + +Mr. HARKNESS. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth +floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from +the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor? + +Mr. HARKNESS. He said it was from the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What were the exact words of the witness? + +Mr. HARKNESS. The exact words of the witness "It was under the ledge," +which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count +of the floors. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor +that he saw it on? + +On the floor under the ledge? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it +would be the last window on the east side of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the +last window from where he was standing? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point +it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of +the building facing Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of +Elm when you talked to this witness? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I was. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were +you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the +Parkway there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Elm as it goes under the Parkway--was between Elm where +it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in +that park area. + +Mr. BELIN. So that is where you were standing? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, +but south of the extension of Elm? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Where that building is, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository +Building at that time? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That +would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct? + +Mr. HARKNESS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember this witness said? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle? + +Mr. HARKNESS. He couldn't tell. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you +recorded in your little book there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland. + +Mr. BELIN. Arnold Rowland? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say? + +Mr. HARKNESS. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He +didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle +walking around up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in +any way be relevant to this investigation? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, +between Elm and Main. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday +that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry? + +Mr. HARKNESS. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed +Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on +the President's Commission? + +Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. But you did see Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way +relevant here? + +Mr. HARKNESS. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to +Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald +had been shot. + +When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police +Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the +county jail the day before, which was a Saturday. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HARKNESS. That is all. + +Mr. BELIN. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; not afterwards. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know Ruby at all, or not? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had +seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is +all. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have +asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation +of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I +heard over the radio. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he +saw at the window was a white man or Negro? + +Mr. HARKNESS. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. +That is what he told me. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man? + +Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any +information out of him, enough to put out a description on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and +testifying. + +You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your +deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and +signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us +directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us +know. + +Mr. HARKNESS. I have no preference. I just hope I have been able to +help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give +directions, especially when you try to convince. + +Mr. BELIN. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have +a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly +to us, whatever you want to do. + +Mr. HARKNESS. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference. + +Mr. BELIN. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want +to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing +it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct? + +Mr. HARKNESS. What has most of them been doing? + +Mr. BELIN. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what +most have been doing, sir. + +Mr. HARKNESS. I will just waive. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF J. HERBERT SAWYER + +The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SAWYER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police. + +Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department? + +Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department? + +Mr. SAWYER. 23 years. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around +1941 or so? + +Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941? + +Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service? + +Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. Policeman. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the +police force then? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was +immediately prior to coming to the police department. + +Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a +grocery store. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then +I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. + +And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit +manager. + +Mr. BELIN. And then after that? + +Mr. SAWYER. Then to the Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except +for this time in the Navy? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. SAWYER. 47. + +Mr. BELIN. You are married? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time? + +Mr. SAWYER. I was. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? +Just what were your duties? + +Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard +to Harwood. + +Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade +passed? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and +completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to +get back in the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection +of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main +Street on Ervay. + +It run parallel to Main Street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade +passed then? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the +crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed +west on Main Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street? + +Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I +got in. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main +Street? + +Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people +crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of +activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? + +Who broadcast it? + +Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the +dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas +School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the +conversation. That is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas +School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was +mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember? + +Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, +or not, in your police number system? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I +think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's +car? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it +was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could +recognize his voice, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car? + +Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there? + +Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into--well, talked to some of the officers +around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots +had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth +floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were +directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a +shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. + +And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in +the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, +and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other +man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about +the fifth floor. + +And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see +anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the +front door? + +Mr. SAWYER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the +elevator as you walked in the front door? + +Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. + +Mr. BELIN. To the right? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? + +Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top +floor. + +Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? + +Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there +into a warehouse area? + +Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage +area? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area +there? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with +people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. + +Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, +so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the +building. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you +mean by that? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then +posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let +anyone in or out. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be +sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were +already covered. + +Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the +building? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were +officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been +done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody +in or out. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let +anyone in or out? + +Mr. SAWYER. I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came +down from the fourth floor or top floor? + +Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. + +Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were +driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off +the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building, +or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you +heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio? + +Mr. SAWYER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of +November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you +have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, +and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call +this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio +log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but +right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned. + +You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are +near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station +Break," is that right? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is +Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that? + +Mr. SAWYER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made--you +might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, +Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, +see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand +by." + +You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-1," which is marked in by +someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time +to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." + +Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home +station, is that correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +I really didn't quite understand all of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move +all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard +and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until +homicide and other investigators can get in there." + +Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there. + +Mr. BELIN. That is Decker? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said? + +Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-1, and they are talking to 1. They +have that confused. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car? + +Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice +here, and that is what he had to say. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----" + +Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriff's Office. + +Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into +the railroad yard----" + +And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station +5? + +Mr. SAWYER. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, +"It looks like the President has been hit." + +Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots +might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from +officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots +came from Texas School Book Depository Building. + +This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book +Depository, is that correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the +Texas School Book Depository building? + +Mr. SAWYER. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at +least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? + +Mr. SAWYER. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, +you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? + +Mr. SAWYER. Officers. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? + +Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the +fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the +source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas +School Book Depository, at that particular time? + +Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a +reference also made to the overpass. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything +else to add? + +Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about +the railroad yard. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or +what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad +yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that +correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe +Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or +did you have to wait for it to come down? + +Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. + +Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. + +How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took +you to? + +Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was +nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the +most. + +Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? + +Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it +couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, +got up and back down. + +Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you +heard the call at 12:34? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the +building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front +door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. + +Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off +the building, that you know of? + +Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building +sealed off. There were officers all around the building. + +To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed +on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk +in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no +instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. + +Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop +traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the +building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that +were there? + +Even before you instructed them? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, +and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the +sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people +standing out on the area of the steps, were there not? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been +stopped? + +Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then +what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were +bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw +that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these +people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take +this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were +standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his +name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered +the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he +said, for interrogating these people. + +Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School +Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of +officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses +and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. + +They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get +away. + +And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the +Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits. + +Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this +period of time that you talked to? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I +would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with +information of one kind or another. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do +you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come +in? What number did you use? + +Mr. SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come +in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right? + +Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30? + +Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true. + +Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the +next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, +as No. 9, called in, is that correct? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there? + +Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book +Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them +up and bring them down here." + +Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the +elevator? + +Mr. SAWYER. That was after. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the +front door and not let anyone in or out? + +Mr. SAWYER. That was after. + +Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time? + +Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say then? + +Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about +30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of +Winchester." + +Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a +rifle?" + +Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle." + +Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?" + +Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that." + +Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and +after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was +broadcast and no further information at this time." + +Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast? + +Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means. + +Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log--I don't see anything more +under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone +as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. +I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that +department. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that +depository? + +Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and +he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. +He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there. + +Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description +on him. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that? + +Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the +information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't +know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over +taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over +from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this +colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the +Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or +he was missing from the building. + +He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some +information about the man that did the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you +know at that time who did the shooting? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was? + +Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it. + +Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m. + +Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript? + +Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have. + +Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him +down. + +We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two +channels there. + +Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B. + +I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your +No. 9. You want to read it? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +"From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown +if he was there in the first place." + +Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have +received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that +building." + +That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.? + +Mr. SAWYER. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number +appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? + +Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and +from all indications the man had been there for some time." + +Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else? + +Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building. + +Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or +at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. +It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A. + +Mr. SAWYER. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called +out another description? + +Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left +out of this. I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must +have been after 1:53. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out +of this man? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that +description from? + +Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man? + +Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's +Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43. + +Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who +claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of +the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name? + +Mr. SAWYER. I do not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing? + +Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I +remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't +old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember +about him. + +Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young? + +Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could +be a few years either way. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you +remember anything about him? + +Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about +that. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw +the person with the rifle? + +Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best +of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But +there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. +I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office. + +Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person +who you say gave you the primary description? + +Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to +the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the +police station? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again? + +Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had +some information with regard to where the shots may have come from? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people. + +Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other +people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part +of a rifle---- + +Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the +upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I +thought was the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? + +Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? + +Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the +southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary +description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? + +Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be +the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth +floor. + +Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor? + +Mr. SAWYER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What side of the building? + +Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you +who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other +than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SAWYER. No, did any---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to +anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than +a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots +on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than +their sense of sight? + +In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw? + +Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they +had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass. + +Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots +over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots +came from? + +Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say +they heard some from other places? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the +overpass, or thought they heard them from that area. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from? + +Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the +Texas Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they +heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a +rifle there? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there? + +Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the +Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that +might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than +what you have told thus far? + +Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said +there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had +taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came +to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said +that there was on the building immediately west--east, I am sorry--east +of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper +windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is? + +Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the +man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the +Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant +and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his +pictures to me. + +When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service +was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was +talking to this man. + +So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since +Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part +would be taken care of. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it +was? + +Mr. SAWYER. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives +saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had +previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and +sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it? + +Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to +talk to him or take any information. + +I just sent him on down there. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building +there? + +Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there +to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to +do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder? + +Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back +down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday? + +Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other +thing until way late in the afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, +whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here? + +Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, +was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a +dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that. + +Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, +whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here? + +Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down +here. + +You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, +to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the +reading of it and have it sent to us directly. + +It doesn't make a bit of difference to us. + +Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me. + +I would like to read it. + +Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be +sent to us. + +Mr. SAWYER. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE + +The testimony of Gerald Dalton Henslee was taken at 4 p.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, +please, to be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name. + +Mr. HENSLEE. Gerald Dalton Henslee. + +Mr. BELIN. Your occupation? + +Mr. HENSLEE. A police officer. + +Mr. BELIN. For what police department? + +Mr. HENSLEE. City of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer? + +Mr. HENSLEE. 16 years. + +Mr. BELIN. You are a sergeant now? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Sergeant. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do before you became a police officer? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I was a student in SMU. + +Mr. BELIN. At SMU? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I was a dance instructor at the Arthur Murray Dance Studio. + +Mr. BELIN. And prior to that? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I was in the United States Army. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge, sir? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. HENSLEE. 40. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, what were your duties on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the +Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you just describe your duties there as to what they +included? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the +channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police +dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of +the President of the United States, President Kennedy. + +Mr. BELIN. What were your hours of work that day? + +Mr. HENSLEE. My assigned hours? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. HENSLEE. 6:30 until 2 p.m. 6:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on after that? + +Mr. HENSLEE. I stayed until about 5:30, as I recall, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. You mentioned channel 2. How many channels do you have? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Two channels. + +Mr. BELIN. Was channel 2 being used for the motorcade that day? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. This is a transcript of the radio log of that date. + +Mr. BELIN. For what channel? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Channel 2. + +Mr. BELIN. Covering from? + +Mr. HENSLEE. From 10:25 a.m., until 1:53 p.m. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the covering page it says that: "The +following was recorded on channel 2, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. This report +includes information prior to the arrival of the President's plane, +progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to Parkland +Hospital. Also included are events concerning the shooting of Officer +Tippit." + +Mr. HENSLEE. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day +or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in +the covering paragraph. + +Mr. HENSLEE. Pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering +paragraph only. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, I hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition +Exhibit B, and ask you to state if you know what this is? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B? + +Mr. HENSLEE. That is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of +President Kennedy and Officer Tippit on channel 1. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, I notice times on Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A +and B. Does this mean a time according to your police clock there when +an event happened? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. For instance, on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I see until +12:40 p.m., a number of conversations. Then the next one is 12:43 p.m. +Does that mean that all the conversations took place between 12:40 and +12:43 p.m.? + +Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. They took place in the order in which they are listed here? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Right. There were so many, we couldn't get the time in +after each transmission. + +Mr. BELIN. Who prepared Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, if you know? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Well, I am pretty sure these are the ones I prepared. They +are copies of them. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know from what source they were prepared? + +Mr. HENSLEE. They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We +have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two +separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and +tapes. + +Mr. BELIN. Under your supervision? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I notice numbers here. For instance, I see on Sawyer +Deposition Exhibit A, the No. 531 often appears. Would that be your +call number? + +Mr. HENSLEE. This designates the radio dispatcher. + +Mr. BELIN. Then I see the number here, No. 1 sometimes appears. Who is +that? + +Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Chief J. E. Curry. + +Mr. BELIN. I see a No. 9. Who is No. 9? + +Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Inspector J. H. Sawyer. + +Mr. BELIN. Different numbers are assigned to different people? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. If an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the +number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the +Department? + +Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. For instance, I see the No. 78 here. Does that appear to be +the number of J. D. Tippit? + +Mr. HENSLEE. On that particular day it was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of, Sergeant, that +might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the +President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. HENSLEE. No. The only thing I have is what I observed over the +police radio that day. That is all the knowledge I have at all. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation. + +One other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it +before it goes into Washington, or else you can waive the reading and +have it go directly to Washington. + +Do you have any preference? + +Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, I would like to read it before I sign it. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all right. It makes no difference to us. And again, +we thank you. + +Mr. HENSLEE. What else can I do for you? + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY + +The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April +7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn? + +(Witness complying.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Sit down and state your name and your address. + +Mr. SHELLEY. William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas +11. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and---- + +Mr. SHELLEY. I was born at Gunter, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. What is your education? + +Mr. SHELLEY. High school. + +Mr. BALL. What have you been doing since then? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and +started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945. + +Mr. BALL. (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did +you tell her all about yourself? + +Mr. SHELLEY. You wanted to know when I was born. + +Mr. BALL. You told us that, and you had your high school education? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done since then? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I've told her. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. SHELLEY. She already has it, October 29, 1945. + +Mr. BALL. October 29, 1945--steady since that date? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. In November 1963, what was your job down there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and +have been for several years. + +Mr. BALL. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Roy S. Truly. + +Mr. BALL. What is his job? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He is superintendent of the place. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He worked for me. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did he do for you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work. + +Mr. BALL. What? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work. + +Mr. BALL. What was it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Order filling. + +Mr. BALL. As an order filler did he have access to any more than one +floor? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many floors? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Just about any of them outside the offices. + +Mr. BALL. Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he +worked more frequently than other floors? + +Mr. SHELLEY. The first floor is where all the order filling is done; +the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock +on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it. + +Mr. BALL. So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on +5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something +I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it. + +Mr. BALL. His work was satisfactory? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work +that morning? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him from time to time during that day? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down +to eat lunch about 10 to 12. + +Mr. BALL. Where had you been working? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that +floor that morning. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go down and eat lunch? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was around 10 'til. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, I started eating. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you start eating it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. In my office next to Mr. Truly's and I ate part of it +which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside +then to the front. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the front? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the +motorcade and I went out to join them. + +Mr. BALL. And who was out there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, +she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady +joined us shortly afterwards. + +Mr. BALL. You were standing where? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside the glass doors there. + +Mr. BALL. That would be on the top landing of the entrance? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade pass? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker +and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. + +Mr. BALL. And then? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't think anything about it. + +Mr. BALL. What did it sound like to you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, +wasn't real loud. + +Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't do anything for a minute. + +Mr. BALL. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like it came from the west. + +Mr. BALL. It sounded like it came from the west? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran +back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy +Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old +island and we stopped there for a minute. + +Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is +there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building +and Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. It dead ends? + +Mr. SHELLEY. There's concrete between the two streets. + +Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't +it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split. + +Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards +and Billy and I walked down that way. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street. + +Mr. BALL. The dead-end street? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the +building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while +we were on the island. + +Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad +yards? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard +those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going +into the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because +this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when +the President was hit. + +Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained +standing there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. +Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that +were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned +around and we saw an officer and Truly. + +Mr. BALL. And Truly? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first +step like they were fixin' to go in. + +Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were they running? + +Mr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people +around. + +Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on +the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars +down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in +through our parking lot at the west end. + +Mr. BALL. At the west end? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. + +Mr. BALL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the +motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. + +Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who else did you see? + +Mr. SHELLEY. That's all we saw immediately. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building. + +Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile +after that. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let +anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen +came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what +but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started +searching the various floors. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go up on the sixth floor? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there when they found anything up there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found +the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had +gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, +one of the officers and they got them. + +Mr. BALL. They did what? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They got the bones. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window +from the southeast corner. + +Mr. BALL. And were they in a sack? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Laying on a sack. + +Mr. BALL. Laying on a sack. + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that's all. + +Mr. BALL. That's the only ones? + +Mr. SHELLEY. That's all. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that +morning? + +Mr. SHELLEY. At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was +the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west +side and he was eating a sandwich so he says. + +Mr. BALL. Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had +eaten fried chicken that morning? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating +chicken. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think you did or do you know? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating +and he said it was a sandwich. + +Mr. BALL. Was that before you went down for lunch? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. It was two-thirds across the building toward the west +because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from +where we were actually working. + +Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like +firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the +noise like a firecracker and she came up? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider. + +Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on +down under the viaduct? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you run out to the point or walk out? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I believe we trotted out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay very long? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, it wasn't very long. + +Mr. BALL. How long? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Maybe a minute or two. + +Mr. BALL. And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going +into the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first +railroad track? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That's about what distance? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Approximately 100 yards. + +Mr. BALL. Did you trot, run or walk? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay there any length of time? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Not very long. + +Mr. BALL. How long would you say? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went back to the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you trot or run back to the building? + +Mr. SHELLEY. We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or +less. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went into the west end? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and +did you see her on the first floor? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I sure don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You don't. + +Mr. SHELLEY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald use a clipboard? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On which he kept his orders? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one---- + +Mr. SHELLEY. It's one he picked up. + +Mr. BALL. Picked up where? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Just laying around. + +Mr. BALL. There are clipboards that the order fillers use there? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a +clip and maybe a piece of cardboard. + +Mr. BALL. Did he use the same one at all times? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; as far as I know. + +Mr. BALL. Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who found it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Frankie Kaiser. + +Mr. BALL. Where did he find it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the +stairway. + +Mr. BALL. Did he show you the place? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Point it out to you? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; so I invited Mr. Pinkston---- + +Mr. BALL. Mr. who? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Pinkston of the FBI. + +Mr. BALL. Did he come out and get the clipboard? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he got it. + +Mr. BALL. But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He was down there at the time and I told him about it and +he and Frankie and I went up and got it. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what date? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the +following week though, I am pretty sure. + +Mr. BALL. You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of +November? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the +clipboard any orders? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Unfilled orders? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom +they had been assigned to fill? + +Mr. SHELLEY. They were Scott, Foresman invoices. + +Mr. BALL. Scott, Foresman invoices? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders. + +Mr. BALL. Who is "he"? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is Foresman [spelling]? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Foresman [spelling]. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman +invoices? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other +publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to +publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy +sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and +forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to +them. + +Mr. BALL. So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, +Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning? + +Mr. SHELLEY. He already had the orders and was working when I got there. + +Mr. BALL. He had? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who would determine what orders they would get? + +Mr. SHELLEY. When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and +get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman. + +Mr. BALL. Would orders be assigned the day before? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The +boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the +work out---- + +Mr. BALL. I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman--suppose +Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would +follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill. + +Mr. SHELLEY. He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a +box marked Scott, Foresman. + +Mr. BALL. They would have Scott, Foresman on it? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work +would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other +boxes any other order filler would take them. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman +orders that day? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman +orders that day? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; +there's more of them. + +Mr. BALL. Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, +Foresman orders that day? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Probably were. + +Mr. BALL. Is there any way you can determine what order filler had that +clipboard? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used. + +Mr. BALL. It did look like the one he had used? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it +was found? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Two or three, best I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did you keep a list of them? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody make a list of them? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Not unless Mr. Pinkston did. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Pinkston of the FBI? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he +released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because +they were several days old. + +Mr. BALL. You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never +been filled? + +Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So you went ahead and filled them? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name--Pinkston? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know. + +Mr. BALL. Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very +much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and +sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the +others doing? + +Mr. BALL. Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you +rather do? + +Mr. SHELLEY. I would kind of like to see it for curiosity. + +Mr. BALL. Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard +found? + +Mr. SHELLEY. On the sixth floor in the far corner. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner? + +Mr. SHELLEY. By the stairway. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest? + +Mr. SHELLEY. Northwest, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF NAT A. PINKSTON + +The testimony of Nat A. Pinkston was taken at 12:10 p.m., on April 9, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I do. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mr. PINKSTON. Nat A. Pinkston. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I'm a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of +Investigation. + +Mr. BALL. Have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding? + +Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Your address is what? + +Mr. PINKSTON. My residence address is 2106 Van Cleave Drive, Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. And how long have you been a Special Agent for the Federal +Bureau of Investigation? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Be 24 years next month. + +Mr. BALL. And you are assigned to what office? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you did not receive a letter from the Commission asking +you to testify, did you? + +Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. At my request, wasn't it? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Well, I---- + +Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin and +he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The deposition taken in the course of an investigation by +the Commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances +surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and I am a staff +officer. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the +oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters +which you do have knowledge of. + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You are willing to testify, are you not? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In the course of your investigation, were you called to the +Texas School Book Depository sometimes around the 2d of December 1963? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And who asked you to come down there? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an +investigation there on that date. + +Mr. BALL. On that date? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a fellow by the name of Frankie Kaiser? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Roy Truly? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did they tell you when you came down there? + +Mr. PINKSTON. To the best of my recollection I was there waiting to see +Mr. Truly. He was somewhere else in the building, and I was waiting for +him on the occasion in question. Frankie Kaiser came down the stairs +and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. I didn't--I +then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on +the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some +orders on it, and--pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to +what Kaiser told me, which is hearsay---- + +Mr. BALL. That is all right, but Kaiser told you that when you were +downstairs, that something--didn't he? When he was--did Kaiser come +downstairs? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes; Kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs +with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say he had left it there? + +Mr. PINKSTON. He had seen it there and did not bother it. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Mr. PINKSTON. He did not put it there. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Kaiser told you and you went upstairs and Kaiser +pointed out the clipboard? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. First, the location of the clipboard. + +Mr. PINKSTON. The clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of +the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It was on the +floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well. + +Mr. BALL. There were some book cartons in front of it, were there? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did Frankie Kaiser say something? That is hearsay, but I +would like to hear what it was. + +Mr. PINKSTON. He told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, +and had given to Oswald when Oswald went to work at the School Book +Depository. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine the clipboard? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I did, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did it have anybody's name on it? + +Mr. PINKSTON. It had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and I +believe--well, I am not in a position to say right now exactly what it +had on it other than some orders. + +Mr. BALL. It did have some orders on it? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you examine the orders? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the date of the orders and the general +description of the orders? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Three orders on this clipboard. Each order was dated +November 22d. The first was an order from Mrs. Hazel Carroll of the +Reading Clinic, SMU, for one Parliamentary Procedure at $1.40. Was +published by Scott, Foresman & Co. + +And this invoice bore No. 2454. The second one was an order from Dallas +Independent School District from Mr. M. J. Morton, purchasing agent, at +the School Administration Building, 3700 Ross Avenue, Dallas, Tex., for +10 ERS, Basic Reading Skills, for high schools, revised, at $1.12, or +total of $11.20. Published by Scott, Foresman & Co. + +The Invoice was No. 6057. + +The third order was an order to be sent to Mr. M. K. Baker, Junior High +School, Reynosa, New Mex., for one TE Basic Reading Skills. J. H. S. +use. No charge. Sent at the request of Miss Mary Williams. Publisher; +Scott, Foresman & Co., invoice 8291. + +Each of these orders, as I say, were dated November 22, 1963. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you--with the orders after you made +these notations? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I turned them over to Mr. Truly. He desired to fill the +orders. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the clipboard? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit +of it, as I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Is it still an exhibit? It is an FBI exhibit? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. In the possession of the FBI? + +Mr. PINKSTON. I haven't seen it since then. + +Mr. BALL. Will you try to determine if you still have that as an +exhibit in your office, or in Washington? + +Mr. PINKSTON. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your +signature, or you can waive your signature. + +Mr. PINKSTON. I would like to---- + +Mr. BALL. See it and read it? + +Mr. PINKSTON. See it and read it and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. You will be notified to come to this office and read it and +sign it. + +(After the conclusion of the deposition and at 1 o'clock, p.m., on the +same day as the taking of the deposition, Mr. Nat A. Pinkston appeared +before me, Iris Leonard, stating that he wished the following statement +to be incorporated with his deposition: "After reviewing my records, I +am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and +the orders thereon, I left them at the Texas School Book Depository +with Mr. Truly. The clipboard was picked up by another FBI agent at a +later time and was made an exhibit.") + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY + +The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April +7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn? + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I do. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mr. LOVELADY. Billy Nolan Lovelady. + +Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You know the purpose of the investigation? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born +and what your education was and your experience, in general? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February +19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service +and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down +there and nursery and stuff like that. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. LOVELADY. December 16, 1961, I believe it was. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, +drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the +stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place. + +Mr. BALL. Which one of the buildings do you work in? + +Mr. LOVELADY. At the one at 411 Elm. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working? + +Mr. LOVELADY. At that morning, you mean? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. LOVELADY. I was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting +down that flooring. + +Mr. BALL. Who were you working with? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and +Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. +Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't +workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along. + +Mr. BALL. That's Mr. Shelley? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Bill Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. What is his position with Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. LOVELADY. He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly. + +Mr. BALL. Is he a foreman? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most +things down there, paperwork and stuff like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well just to work with him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or +anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few +times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing +fine. + +Mr. BALL. Where did Oswald work in the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, he had access to all the building just like I do. + +Mr. BALL. All floors? + +Mr. LOVELADY. All floors. + +Mr. BALL. Any floor? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the +office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go +up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up +there. + +Mr. BALL. Did he work on one floor more than any other? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers +on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you? + +Mr. LOVELADY. He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but +not by himself, with the rest of the boys. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him come to work that morning? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir; just lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes +and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch +that day? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Same time, 12. + +Mr. BALL. A little before 12? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get +ready for it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you come down the elevator? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you go down with? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the +side I was; I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Were you having a race with the other boys? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way +down? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was +on. I heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the +elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the +gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come +by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the west elevator? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator? + +Mr. LOVELADY. East, on back, the elevator back. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because--where those +slats are in back of the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did +you do? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and +got a coke and come on back down. + +Mr. BALL. Upstairs on what floor? + +Mr. LOVELADY. That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the +domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody +was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was +standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I +said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my +lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. + +Mr. BALL. You ate your lunch on the steps? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me---- + +Mr. BALL. What was that last name? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Stanton. + +Mr. BALL. What is the first name? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. And Stanton's first name? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Miss Sarah Stanton. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the steps? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there when the President's motorcade went by? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating +the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what +had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the +President had been shot. + +Mr. BALL. Who was this girl? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Gloria Calvary. + +Mr. BALL. Gloria Calvary? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where does she work? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Southwestern Publishing Co. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the direction of the sound? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right there around that concrete little deal on that +knoll. + +Mr. BALL. That's where it sounded to you? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going +down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in +that area. + +Mr. BALL. From the underpass area? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Between the underpass and the building right on that +knoll. + +Mr. BALL. I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on +that picture? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. + +Mr. LOVELADY. Where I thought the shots are? + +Mr. BALL. No; you in the picture. + +Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, here (indicating). + +Mr. BALL. Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an +arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were +you when the picture was taken? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right there at the entrance of the building standing on +the top of the step, would be here (indicating). + +Mr. BALL. You were standing on which step? + +Mr. LOVELADY. It would be your top level. + +Mr. BALL. The top step you were standing there? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, +Gloria Calvary, what did you do? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so +we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him +or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had +saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it +was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you +know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old +island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as +the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen +started running out that way and we said we better get back into the +building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had +that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. + +Mr. BALL. First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the +steps with. + +Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. Shelley and you went down how far? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to +the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---- + +Mr. BALL. You went down the dead end on Elm? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And down to the first tracks? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything there? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No sir; well, just people running. + +Mr. BALL. That's all? + +Mr. LOVELADY. And hollerin. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go down there? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I don't know, because everybody was running from that way +and naturally, I guess---- + +Mr. BALL. They were running from that way or toward that way? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from +that direction. + +Mr. BALL. By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the +building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15, +maybe 25, steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and +the policeman running into the building. + +Mr. BALL. How many steps? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Twenty, 25. + +Mr. BALL. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad +tracks? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, +Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the +building. + +Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did. + +Mr. BALL. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before +Gloria Calvary came up? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. + +Mr. BALL. Three minutes is a long time. + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, it's--I say approximately; I can't say because I +don't have a watch; it could. + +Mr. BALL. Had people started to run? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was +talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we +came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you +go down the steps. + +Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and +go toward the tracks? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you run or walk? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Medium trotting or fast walk. + +Mr. BALL. A fast walk? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the +policeman go into the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Somebody hollered and I looked. + +Mr. BALL. You turned around and looked? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went +in the back door of the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did +you go in the ordinary small door? + +Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a +little door. + +Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door? + +Mr. LOVELADY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn't it? + +Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street? + +Mr. LOVELADY. No; you are thinking about another dock. + +Mr. BALL. I am? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side +of the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter +it from the south side. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---- + +Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street. + +Mr. BALL. That's south. + +Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from +this direction; that would have to be west. + +Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors. + +Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we +get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors +between it. + +Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you see in the first floor? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. + +Mr. BALL. Who is Vickie? + +Mr. LOVELADY. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. + +Mr. BALL. What is her full name? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I wouldn't know. + +Mr. BALL. Vickie Adams? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. Would you say it was Vickie you saw? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I couldn't swear. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the girl? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I don't remember what place she was but I remember +seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, +then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see +if we should continue working or what. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the first floor? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys +had come in. + +Mr. BALL. And you stayed on the first door then? + +Mr. LOVELADY. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me +would I take them up on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take them up there? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; I sure did. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be +submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any +changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---- + +Mr. LOVELADY. I want this to be the final one. + +Mr. BALL. All right; you waive signature? + +Mr. LOVELADY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER + +The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. KAISER. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you give me your name, please? + +Mr. KAISER. Frankie Kaiser. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Mr. KAISER. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Mr. KAISER. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company? + +Mr. KAISER. Oh, just about 2 years. + +Mr. BALL. What time do you go to work down there? + +Mr. KAISER. Eight o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. BALL. What date did you go to work for them? + +Mr. KAISER. It was August 24, 1962. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. KAISER. Texas--Texarkana, Ark. + +Mr. BALL. Were you born there? + +Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr. + +Mr. BALL. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you? + +Mr. KAISER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school? + +Mr. KAISER. I never finished. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go? + +Mr. KAISER. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service +and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then +came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises. + +Mr. BALL. You worked for whom? + +Mr. KAISER. Morris Warehouse. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that? + +Mr. KAISER. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work +over there. + +Mr. BALL. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes--then I got married. + +Mr. BALL. You did--what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. KAISER. Drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs +to be done. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that +worked there? + +Mr. KAISER. Not personally--I would know him when I would see him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you work in the same building with him? + +Mr. KAISER. Same building. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's parade went by? + +Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College. + +Mr. BALL. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository? + +Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed +tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the +lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go back to work? + +Mr. KAISER. It was the following Monday. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; I believe so--the 25th. + +Mr. BALL. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, +the corner I found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of +Catholic handbooks. + +Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what? + +Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" +books. + +Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what? + +Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books--separated. + +Mr. BALL. You do? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition. + +Mr. BALL. On what floor? + +Mr. KAISER. On the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition +located? + +Mr. KAISER. It was in that corner. + +Mr. BALL. And in what corner is that? + +Mr. KAISER. Let's see---- + +Mr. BALL. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or +the stairway? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it with reference to the stairway? + +Mr. KAISER. It was right next to the stairway--right in the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember? + +Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a +half, somewhere in there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of +Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent +named Pinkston; do you remember that? + +Mr. KAISER. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed +it to them. + +Mr. BALL. When you saw the clipboard---- + +Mr. KAISER. I went downstairs and got my boss. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. KAISER. William H. Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. And then what happened? + +Mr. KAISER. This FBI was standing there with me--he was standing there +then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think it would have been around December 2? + +Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it? + +Mr. KAISER. To my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to find the clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. I was over there looking for the Catholic +edition--teacher's edition. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see the clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. It was just laying there in the plain open--and just the +plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and +I just noticed it laying over there. + +Mr. BALL. Laying on the floor? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was laying on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. It was on the floor? + +Mr. KAISER. It was on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. How close was it to the wall? + +Mr. KAISER. It was about--oh--I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 +inches, something like that. + +Mr. BALL. From the wall and on the floor? + +Mr. KAISER. Laying on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. No, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. No, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the +stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this +way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the +cards--there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of +it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up. + +Mr. BALL. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, right there in the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. I didn't touch it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later touch it? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see it had some orders on it? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And were the orders dated? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were they dated? + +Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston +that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in +any way? + +Mr. KAISER. (Read statement referred to.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you read that? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the +clipboard? + +Mr. KAISER. I didn't know the date on the orders--I knew that there was +some orders on there--I seen the orders on the clipboard. + +Mr. BALL. Did you examine them to determine the date on them? + +Mr. KAISER. Did I examine those orders? No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't examine the orders? + +Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they +took it down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the orders? + +Mr. KAISER. I didn't, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders? + +Mr. KAISER. No, sir; now, my boss may have. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself? + +Mr. KAISER. No, sir; not them, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You turned these over to your boss? + +Mr. KAISER. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and +got them and they handled them. + +Mr. BALL. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up. + +This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign +it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we +can send it on without a signature. + +Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your +deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C. + +(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for +identification.) + +Mr. KAISER. Anything else I can do, let me know. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature to it? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, I'll waive it. + +Mr. BALL. Fine. That's okay. + +Mr. KAISER. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER RESUMED + +The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just +wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath. + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was +it? + +Mr. KAISER. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of +pasteboard. + +Mr. BALL. Who made it? + +Mr. KAISER. I did. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. KAISER. Well, right after I started there--it had been a long time +ago. + +Mr. BALL. And how was it you weren't using it on this day? + +Mr. KAISER. You see, when he first started there---- + +Mr. BALL. Who is "he"? + +Mr. KAISER. Lee--when he first started to work there he got my +clipboard and started using it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give it to him to use? + +Mr. KAISER. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just +went and made me another one. + +Mr. BALL. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, because my name was all over it. + +Mr. BALL. Your name was on it, too? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it? + +Mr. KAISER. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around +here--everybody is always running off with it. + +Mr. BALL. That's the reason you put your name on it? + +Mr. KAISER. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let +him keep it and made me another one. + +Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures +as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do +you know? + +Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found there--it was found on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Where on the floor? + +Mr. KAISER. Behind these cartons--between there and the wall. + +Mr. BALL. Behind which cartons? + +Mr. KAISER. Right in here (indicating). + +Mr. BALL. Which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the +picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there? + +Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on +the floor. + +Mr. BALL. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found. + +Mr. KAISER. I'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the +wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.) + +Mr. BALL. You have marked an "X" on the carton--between that carton and +the wall the clipboard was found. + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you later find clothing? + +Mr. KAISER. I just found the coat there--I didn't even know it was his +until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding. + +Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit 163--do you recognize that blue +jacket? + +Mr. KAISER. That's the one I found. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you find it--tell me first. + +Mr. KAISER. It was in the window sill. + +Mr. BALL. In what room? + +Mr. KAISER. In the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked--does this +show the window? + +Mr. KAISER. Right down in here. + +Mr. BALL. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the +jacket was found? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window. + +Mr. BALL. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the +picture? + +Mr. KAISER. No; it sure wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. But was it the same window? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the window sill is shown there too? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this +show the place where the jacket was found? + +Mr. KAISER. Right over in here. + +Mr. BALL. Where--put an "X" there--it's in the window sill? + +Mr. KAISER. Right. + +(Marked diagram with an "X".) + +Mr. BALL. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino +room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture +marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there +by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" +please? + +Mr. KAISER. (Initialed instrument as requested.) + +Mr. BALL. That's "FK". + +I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much. + +Mr. KAISER. That's all right. + +Mr. BALL. You'll waive this signature too? + +Mr. KAISER. Yes. + +(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for +identification.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS + +The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GIVENS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please? + +Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens? + +Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue. + +Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mr. GIVENS. 38. + +Mr. BELIN. Married? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens? + +Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life? + +Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World +War II, in the Navy. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy? + +Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before +you went in the Navy? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Doing what? + +Mr. GIVENS. SMU. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. GIVENS. SMU. + +Mr. BELIN. SMU? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there? + +Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service. + +Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service? + +Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service? + +Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work. + +Mr. BELIN. At SMU? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where? + +Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co. + +Mr. BELIN. Doing what there? + +Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck. + +Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck? + +Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that? + +Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little +trouble. + +Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long was that? + +Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company, +and then after that I got this job down here at the depository. + +Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened then? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff +during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he +calls you back. + +Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack +season? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, +don't have any special job. + +Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we +fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We +have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more +than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth +floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any +one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, +also? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22? + +Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the +floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on? + +Mr. GIVENS. Sixth. + +Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that +day? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work? + +Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day? + +Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like +about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he +was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the +book right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What +you said and what he said? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He +never had too much to say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about +his family, or baseball, or anything? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did +you say and what did he say? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book. + +Mr. BELIN. What would he say? + +Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald? + +Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he call you? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call +me anything. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you +see him at all there or not? + +Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it? + +Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by. + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was that? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were +you? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all? + +Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth +floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 +o'clock? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would +be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the +Houston Street. + +Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one. + +Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than +the west one? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason, +but on the west, you have double gates on that. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the +east elevator up? + +Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first? + +Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he? + +Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders. + +Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all? + +Mr. GIVENS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and +pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing +he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the +whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work. + +Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the +floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next? + +Mr. GIVENS. Next? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way +downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the +fifth floor. + +I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket +pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket +with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth +floor in that vicinity, coming from that way. + +Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way? + +Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from. + +Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw +him on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the +elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the +sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me. + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but +perhaps we can use another plan here to help us. + +Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street +side, and you can see the arrow pointing north. + +This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that +there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, +right? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now +did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you +standing near any of these windows? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be +somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct? + +Mr. GIVENS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the +south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front +part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to +the back of the east elevator, is that about right? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating]. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it +would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building, +is that right? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that +about right? + +Mr. GIVENS. That is about right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons +stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, +because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and +ran it down that side. + +Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth +floor where you were working and put it there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the +other side of the window? + +Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the +elevators. + +Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand. + +Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the +east wall that he was walking along, or what? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front +of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you +remember? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the +window itself? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that +southeast corner? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see +him walking in? + +Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators. + +Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book +cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling +orders? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible. + +Mr. BELIN. It was possible? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was +getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going +downstairs?" + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you? + +Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time." + +He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the +elevator." + +That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down +and it will come up by itself. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did he say? + +Mr. GIVENS. That is all. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the +elevator gate, or not say anything? + +Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down? + +Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one. + +Mr. BELIN. The east elevator? + +Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first +floor, the west elevator was there? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close +the gate and it wasn't there. + +Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. What time was this? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, then +because it was---- + +Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first +floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James +Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was +going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there +a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot." + +I had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on Elm and Record. + +Mr. BELIN. Elm and Record Streets? + +Mr. GIVENS. Elm and Record Streets; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be one block to the east of the corner of Elm and +Houston? + +Mr. GIVENS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. I stood around over there and went up on the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. What corner? + +Mr. GIVENS. Up on Main and Record. That is where I watched the +President pass right there. + +Mr. BELIN. Who else was there with you that you knew? + +Mr. GIVENS. James and Edward Shields. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that the same person, James Edward? + +Mr. GIVENS. Edward Shields and James. + +Mr. BELIN. Two other people? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You watched the motorcade together? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you watched the motorcade? + +Mr. GIVENS. We turned and started back down to the parking lot. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. GIVENS. Then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in +front, right across in front of the Record Building, then we heard the +shots. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. +When did you eat lunch? + +Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let's see, no; I +ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my +sandwich standing out there. + +Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. In front of what building? + +Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I eat inside the building all the time. + +Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you said you saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor around +11:55? + +Mr. GIVENS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between +11:55 and the time you left the building? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. On November 22d? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere +between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper? + +Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every +morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the +next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's +paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that +morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't +see him in the domino room that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read? + +Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, +when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look +at it. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. +Fellows bring it to work. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that +somebody else brought to work? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one. + +Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James +Jarman would generally bring one. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you +left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the +elevator? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now? + +Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter--I said about a quarter to 12. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember? + +Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny +and myself. + +Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; a Spanish boy. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your +cigarettes so you went back up? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on? + +Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up? + +Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on +the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any +previous days on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up +to the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I went straight and picked up my jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was your jacket? + +Mr. GIVENS. It was on the west side of the building where we were +working. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, there are seven pairs of windows. Was it on the south +wall of the building? Was it near any one of those windows on the south +wall, or was it more to the center of the west side? + +Mr. GIVENS. It was more to the corner on the west side. I would say +along about the second window going. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the +stairs or the southwest corner? + +Mr. GIVENS. Southwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. You have shown the southwest corner? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; along about here [indicating]. + +Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot which appears to be +approximately, oh, 25 feet north, and about 10 feet east of the +southwest corner of the sixth floor. Would that be about right? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. When you +walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see Lee +Oswald there? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were +walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't see him until I got back along here, +about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on. + +Mr. BELIN. As you were walking to the first spot, which we will +describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or +about to get on the elevator, or what? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I was fixing to get on. + +Mr. BELIN. You were fixing to get on? The elevator was still there +where you left it when you came up? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. As you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning +to get on it, you saw Lee Oswald walking with his clipboard? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward +you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to +the east wall here? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say yes, sir; he was going like this. + +Mr. BELIN. He was going? + +Mr. GIVENS. Coming down the aisle. + +Mr. BELIN. Coming down the aisle straight? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? Did he +have a pencil in his hand? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to +get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of +the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened +to glance around as I was on my way back. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you +remember? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir. I just walked off and turned and went right +over there and picked my jacket up and started back. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were +getting off the elevator? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I kind of glanced that way when I turned to go around +the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone over there at that time? + +Mr. GIVENS. Not at that time, no, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how high the books were by the southeast +corner on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say about 10 feet from the window. In the +aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack. + +Mr. BELIN. Would they have been as tall as you? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. If a man would have been standing up there, would you have +been able to see him? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north +end of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up +on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes? + +Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a +newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that +morning on November 22d? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the +domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d? + +Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time. + +Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there. + +Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the +first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two +elevators, didn't you? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators? + +Mr. GIVENS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Who won? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it +stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before +you went back up to the sixth floor again? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes +and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up +to the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my +hands, I sure did. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it. + +Mr. BELIN. Now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these +other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over +to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay any attention the first time I +was coming down. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you laying the new floor that morning? What +portion of the sixth floor would it be? + +Mr. GIVENS. West side. + +Mr. BELIN. How much of the west side? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were working, I would say, about 10 feet from Elm +Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you were pointing to right over this point here? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at the scale, it would be about 10 feet from +the--it would be more than 10 feet. Here is the scale. + +This would be 20 feet, so it would be more than 20 feet from Elm Street? + +Mr. GIVENS. About 20 feet, maybe so. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you think it was closer to 10 feet than 20 feet from the +Elm Street side of the west part of the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. I believe it was somewhere in that vicinity. + +Mr. BELIN. How close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were, oh, I would say about 20 feet out from the +wall, we had laid. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen Oswald on +the sixth floor that morning? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, is there anything else you can think of that +happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Everything was all right until that. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. GIVENS. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we +got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, +going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. + +And we asked--I asked someone--some white fellow there, "What happened?" + +And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there +for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they +found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get +back in the officer at the door would't let me in. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he +wouldn't let no one in. + +Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait +until I seen Junior. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that +they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go +back and get my hat and coat." + +So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson +saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I +said, "Yes." + +And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement." + +And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made +a statement to Will Fritz down there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you +saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have +asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about Lee Oswald, whether I +have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Other than he is just a peculiar fellow. He is +just a loner. Don't have much to say to anybody. Stayed by himself most +of the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice any one person there he was more +friendly with than the other? + +Mr. GIVENS. Well, this boy he rode with. + +Mr. BELIN. Frazier? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Every once in a while I would see him talking to +him. Bonnie Ray told me--I never saw him, but Bonnie Ray told me he +talked to he and Danny sometimes. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? + +Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that is about it. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in +coming down here. + +Now you and I didn't talk about this at all until we started taking +this deposition, did we? + +Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You walked into the room and you raised your right hand and +we started taking your testimony. Is that correct? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Have I ever met you before? + +Mr. GIVENS. I don't believe so. I don't believe I have. + +Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity to come back here and read this and +sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the +court reporter send it directly to Washington. Do you want to come back +and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter +just send it to Washington? + +Mr. GIVENS. Would it be necessary to come back? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir; it is not. You can waive it if you desire to do it. +Do you want to waive it? + +Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you. We will see you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF TROY EUGENE WEST + +The testimony of Troy Eugene West was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. West, would you raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WEST. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to sit down now, please. Will you please state your +name for the record? Your name is Troy Eugene West? + +Mr. WEST. Troy Eugene West. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. West? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I was born in 1907. That would be 57, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You go to school at all in Texas? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I went to the seventh grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEST. Well; I had to come out of school and go to work. + +Mr. BELIN. You started working then? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you started working? Where did you work? + +Mr. WEST. On the farm. + +Mr. BELIN. On the farm? + +Mr. WEST. On the farm, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay on the farm? + +Mr. WEST. Oh, I stayed on the farm until way up after I got grown. I +was way up past--I guess I was about 24. + +Mr. BELIN. When you left the the farm, then what did you do when you +left the farm? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I came to town after I left. + +Mr. BELIN. You came to Dallas? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; little town at Mexia, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in town there? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I lived there for about 7 years, I guess. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in town for 7 years, and generally what did you do +when you were in town? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I worked the express all the time. + +Mr. BELIN. For any particular company? + +Mr. WEST. I was trying to think of the man's name. + +Mr. BELIN. You can't remember it right now? + +Mr. WEST. I just can't remember it right now. Been quite a little while. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, do you remember what you did after you got through +doing that? After 6 or 7 years, then where did you go? + +Mr. WEST. I came to Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do in Dallas, generally? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I worked around just different places until I started +to work for the company where I am now. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you start working for them? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I have been with them now about 16 years. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been with them 16 or 17 years? What company is that? + +Mr. WEST. Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you do for the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I am a mail wrapper. + +Mr. BELIN. You are a mail wrapper? + +Mr. WEST. I wrap mail all the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you doing that on November 22d of 1963, too? Were you a +mail wrapper at that time back in last November? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to work on November 22, 1963? That was a Friday, +the day the President was assassinated. + +Mr. WEST. Yes; I went to work that day. + +Mr. BELIN. What time did you get to work? + +Mr. WEST. Well, we always got to work--we were supposed to be there at +8 in the morning. + +Mr. BELIN. You got there at 8 that morning? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. I always, most of the time I got there a little early. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time you got to work that particular +morning? + +Mr. WEST. It was about 10 minutes to 8. I always be 5 or 10 minutes +early. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work? + +Mr. WEST. Well, when I first got to work I always made coffee in the +morning at the store. That is the first thing I do in the morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee? + +Mr. WEST. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you make coffee? + +Mr. WEST. Well, it is down on the first floor in the same department +where I wrap mail at. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I have a first floor map here of the School Book +Depository. Here is Elm Street and here is the front entrance. + +Here is Mr. Truly's office, and here is Mr. Shelley's office. + +There is the stairway down to the basement, and there are the elevators +and the back stairway. There are the toilets there. About where would +you wrap mail there? Here is the domino room and the shower. + +You are looking here, that is north Elm Street runs this way and +Houston Street runs that way. It is shown on that diagram. + +Mr. WEST. Well, my place was in the west side of the other building. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it near the stairway. + +Mr. WEST. No; it wasn't close to the stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it closer to the Elm Street side of the building? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What was it close to? The west side is the side near the +railroad tracks and the triple underpass. Is that what you think is the +west side? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is what I would call the west side. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, now, the northwest part is by the stairway, and the +southwest part would be toward the corner near Elm Street. Do you mean +toward the Elm or more toward the wooden dock in the back? + +Mr. WEST. Well, it was about, I would say, middleways between Elm and +the dock. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, there are a couple of overhead doors on that west +side, aren't there? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You see where it is marked on the first floor diagram, +overhead door and overhead door? Two doorways here on the west side? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then was it near either one of those doorways? + +Mr. WEST. Well, it was near this one, pretty close to this one. + +Mr. BELIN. It was close to what I would call a doorway, approximately +in the middle side of the west wall of the first floor? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That is where you wrapped the mail? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That is where you have the coffee machine? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I have it. + +Mr. BELIN. That is where you went when you got to work that morning? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you first go to the domino room and leave your lunch or +hang up your coat or anything? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir. I just always go right there first. Sometime I pull +my coat off and lay it over on the table and go right on. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay about making coffee when you got +there? How long did you stay around that place when you first got there? + +Mr. WEST. Well, let's see, it didn't take me too long. I mean, you +know, to make the coffee. After I got it made, I went right on and went +right on at my work wrapping mail. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general area all the time? + +Mr. WEST. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general location all the time? + +Mr. WEST. That was my, all my work was right there on the first floor. +I never did--- + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald that morning? + +Mr. WEST. I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WEST. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WEST. Yes; I had been seeing him every morning, you know. He would +come to work. Excepting the morning, I didn't see him that morning at +all. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you generally see him when he first came to work? + +Mr. WEST. Most of the time I see him. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him when he first came to work? + +Mr. WEST. Well, he would come in and probably I would be on my way back +to the rest room, probably to get water in my percolator, or maybe wash +the cups or something, and I would see him when he would come in, and I +would speak and go right ahead. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Lee Harvey Oswald say? + +Mr. WEST. I would just say to him, "Good morning," and he said, "Good +morning," to me, and he was going right on, and I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever stop and get a cup of coffee? + +Mr. WEST. I never did see him stop and get any. I don't know whether he +drink coffee or not. He never did stop and get any. + +Mr. BELIN. When you would see him, where would he be walking or working +when he first came to work in the morning? + +Mr. WEST. He would be order filler, and naturally, they have bins, all +those bins down there made for stock, and he would be working around in +there sometime. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when you walked into work, or did you see +him after he started working? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I would notice him times after he done started working. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't generally see him walking into work, did you, or +did you? + +Generally, when you would first see him, would he be just walking into +work? + +Mr. WEST. Be just coming in. + +Mr. BELIN. What route would he take when he normally came to work? Do +you know what doorway? Did he walk through the front or the back? + +Mr. WEST. Well, it is through the back door. He would come in the side +door next to the dock on the northeast side. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what route would he take when he walked in? + +Mr. WEST. Well, he would come right in, and a lot of times I would be +mostly, or be passing him, and he would come right in and probably I'd +go right on, and I never would see him no more than that he would be on +that work, or whatever. + +Mr. BELIN. When he came in, for instance, did he go right to an +elevator to go upstairs, or did he go over to the domino room, or down +to the basement, or where would he go when he would first come in? + +Mr. WEST. He would go and pull off his jacket or coat or whatever he +had on, and go on to work there. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, where would he put his coat when he took it off? + +Mr. WEST. Sometimes he would hang it up. + +Mr. BELIN. Where? + +Mr. WEST. Pretty close to the elevator, or something, or lots of times +he would just lay it down on something there in the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him take his jacket into the domino room to +hang it up? + +Mr. WEST. No; I never did see him. + +Mr. BELIN. He would either lay his jacket or hang it up by the +elevator, or lay it on these boxes where he was working, is that what +your testimony is? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; he would lay it either close, hang it up on the +elevator, or either lay it down. + +A lot of times, he would just pull it off and lay it down. + +Mr. BELIN. Would he ever take his shirt off and put it down there and +just work in a T-shirt? + +Mr. WEST. I don't believe I ever seen him working in just a T-shirt. +He worked in his shirt all right, but I never did see him work in a +T-shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him carrying his lunch inside? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did see him with any lunch. + +Mr. BELIN. On the morning of November 22, did you happen to see Buell +Wesley Frazier? Do you remember Frazier who worked down there? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see him come in that morning on November +22, that Friday, if you remember? + +Mr. WEST. Well, lots of times I seen him that day, but now I didn't see +him when he came in, because I had got busy at working and I might have +probably had been in, you know, a good while before I saw him. I didn't +see when he came. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you earlier testified you never saw Oswald on +November 22? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see him that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you generally at your spot in the west part of the +first floor there that you are talking about by the mailing place? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there many days when you would ever see him working +down there in the morning near you? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir. I had generally been seeing him nearly every +morning, excepting that morning I didn't see him at all. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him every morning except that morning? + +Mr. WEST. Practically every morning except then. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you quit for lunch that day? + +Mr. WEST. Well, we always quit at 12 o'clock in the day. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that when you quit on November 22d? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I went in and washed my hands and face and then got +ready to put my coffee on. I always make coffee at 12. Make it in the +morning, and then I make it about 12, between 12 and 12:30. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you put your coffee on? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. In the west part of the first floor where you generally work? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I went to get my lunch to eat a bite. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you get your lunch? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I always kept my lunch right there close by my machine, +by my wrapping machine that I use all the time, that I always kept my +lunch. I have a little place underneath and I keep it there all the +time. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that wraps the books for mailing, or +wraps them up for mailing? + +Mr. WEST. Well, no, sir; I am not the only one, but mine is that way +just every day. + +Mr. BELIN. You do it all the time? + +Mr. WEST. Yes; I do that. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that does it all the time? + +Mr. WEST. I am the only one that is steady, wraps mail all the time, +although I have help, you know, when it gets stacked. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever help you wrap mail? + +Mr. WEST. No sir; he never did. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he ever borrowed or used any +wrapping paper for himself? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know? + +Mr. WEST. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him around these wrapper rolls or wrapper +roll machines, or not? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around. + +Mr. BELIN. Are they paper machines with the rolls of wrapping paper? +You have some gum there too, for taping it? When you wrap it, would you +tape it with some tape? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? Did you put tape on the wrapping paper when +it was being shipped? + +When you wrap the books up with wrapping paper, did you have any gum +tape that you put on it? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I had a machine that I placed it on the machine and +tied it with, and the machine tied it with a string. + +Mr. BELIN. With string? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Didn't you have any gummed tape by your machine? + +Mr. WEST. Sir? + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any kind of a tape, sticky tape that you would +put on the paper to keep it together, or was that somewhere else? + +Mr. WEST. Oh, yes, sir; I used some of that wide tape. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that sticky tape? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. To seal the package with? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that's right. + +And then I tie it, put it on the machine and then tie it. + +Mr. BELIN. Is yours the only place that they have the sticky tape? + +Mr. WEST. Well, that is the only place that is supposed to be, you +know. + +Mr. BELIN. Could other employees come and pick up some of the tape for +themselves? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; they could come get it if they wanted to use it, +but all the time it was there where it is supposed to be. + +Mr. BELIN. Did other employees from time to time come and borrow some +of that tape at all, or use it? + +Would other employees ever use any of that tape for themselves? + +Mr. WEST. Not as I know of now. + +Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to use any of that tape, you know that tape that +you use to seal it, is there a way to make tape wet so I don't have to +lick it myself with my tongue to make it wet and sticky? Or how did you +get it to be sticky and stick together? + +Mr. WEST. Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that +we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. In to--other words, +I got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, +and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you +know, it gets water on it as we pull it through. + +Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without +getting water on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet +roller and get the tape without getting it wet? + +Mr. WEST. You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out +of the machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little +clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it +gets water on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this an electrical machine or is it just kind of a little +apparatus for just pulling it through by hand? + +Mr. WEST. Well, it is not electric, no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now going back to November 22, you said you quit for lunch +around noon on that day on Friday, November 22? + +Mr. WEST. Yes. About 12 o'clock we always quit for lunch. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any of the men coming down the elevator that +day? Bonnie Ray Williams or James Jarman, Jr., or Danny Arce, or any +one else coming down that morning? Charlie Givens? + +Do you remember them coming down the elevator, or don't you remember? + +Mr. WEST. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, after you quit for lunch, you made the coffee then? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee? + +Mr. WEST. I made the coffee right there close to the wrapping mail +table where I wrap mail. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I sit down to eat my lunch. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I had just, after I made coffee, I just had started to +eat my lunch because I was a little hungry--I didn't eat anything that +morning before I went to work--and I had started to eat my lunch. + +But before I got through, well, all of this was, I mean, the police and +things was coming in, and I was just spellbound. I just didn't know +what was the matter. So I didn't get through eating. I had to eat about +half my lunch, and that is all. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots fired? + +Mr. WEST. I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were +eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor? + +Mr. WEST. It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. At any time while you were making coffee or eating your +lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after +you--while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building? + +Mr. WEST. Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were +coming in the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming +through there while you were eating your lunch? + +Mr. WEST. Well, that was police. + +Mr. BELIN. A police officer? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone else? + +Mr. WEST. I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a +crowd of them coming in there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you +know Mr. Truly? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him, do you remember, while you were eating +your lunch, come in the building? + +Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come +in ahead of him, if you remember? + +Mr. WEST. Really, I just don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you +to say if you don't remember. + +Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like +that? + +Mr. WEST. I can't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you working when you were eating your lunch? Were you +facing the elevator or not when you were eating your lunch? Were you +facing any of the elevators back there? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I was always--I mean I would always be with my back +kind of, you know, towards the elevators and facing the front side over +on the side. + +Mr. BELIN. The Elm Street side? + +Mr. WEST. Toward Elm Street side. + +Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether anyone was using the elevators? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether anyone was going up and down the stairs? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything else about what happened on November +22, that might be helpful or relevant here? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't really. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you ever on the second floor on November 22? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did hardly ever leave the first floor. That +is just I stayed there where all my work was, and I just stayed there. + +Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you ever leave the first floor? + +Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did leave the first floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it +or not? + +Mr. WEST. Well, I don't know anything else. I know of nothing else. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we thank you very much for coming down here, Mr. West. +If you want, you can come back down again and read your deposition and +sign it, or else you can just waive coming down here. You don't have to +come down. You can tell the court reporter to send it directly to us, +if you want to. + +Mr. WEST. You mean when I get ready to sign it? + +Mr. BELIN. Now you do not have to sign it if you don't want to. You can +just tell the court reporter to type it up and send it directly to us, +or you can tell the court reporter you would like to read it and sign +it before she sends it to us in Washington. + +You don't have to sign it. Or if you want to sign it, you can come back +and sign it, whichever you want to do. + +Mr. WEST. Well, I think--I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to come down here again and read it and sign it, +or do you want to waive? + +You can waive and tell the court reporter that she can just send it +after she types it up, directly to us in Washington without your +reading it and signing it. + +Mr. WEST. Well, I think that is what I will do, just have it waived and +send it on. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, that is fine. + +Thank you very much, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DANNY G. ARCE + +The testimony of Danny G. Arce was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mr. ARCE. Danny Garcia Arce. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. ARCE. 1502 Bennett Avenue. + +Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were +born and where you went to school? + +Mr. ARCE. I was born here in Dallas and I went to Stephen F. Foster +Elementary school and Alex W. Spence Junior High and Crozier Tech. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, I quit school and found a job and worked. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you find a job? + +Mr. ARCE. The first job, well, you don't want---- + +Mr. BALL. No; just in general. + +Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and +just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall--Rubenstein and Sons. I +haven't had too many jobs. + +Mr. BALL. What is Rubenstein and Son, a restaurant? + +Mr. ARCE. No; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them +out, I guess. + +Mr. BALL. What else have you done? + +Mr. ARCE. That's about all. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. ARCE. I started in September--September, I believe, the 6th, +September 6th. + +Mr. BALL. Of what year? + +Mr. ARCE. 1963. + +Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission asking you to +appear here, didn't you? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You understand the purpose of the investigation? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. To determine the facts surrounding the assassination of the +President, President Kennedy. + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You started to work in September 1963, this last September? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes; last September. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do? + +Mr. ARCE. Order filler. + +Mr. BALL. What building did you work in? + +Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse. + +Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm? + +Mr. ARCE. No; that's on---- + +Mr. BALL. Which is this? + +Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School +Book Depository at Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me +and the other boy down there. + +Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy? + +Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what? + +Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there? + +Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. October? + +Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; +I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that. + +Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the +sixth when this happened. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lee Oswald? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too +much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or +anything. + +Mr. BALL. You say he worked with you; did he work laying floors? + +Mr. ARCE. No, he was an order filler; he just worked the same place. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him on the sixth floor? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, quite a few times. + +Mr. BALL. Ever see him on the first floor? + +Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him? + +Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play +dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and +he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't +like crowds. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, what time did you go to work? + +Mr. ARCE. We start at eight but I believe I was a little late. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work on what floor? + +Mr. ARCE. Sixth. + +Mr. BALL. Did you work there all morning? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get off work? + +Mr. ARCE. That day? + +Mr. BALL. At noon for your lunch hour or your lunch period? + +Mr. ARCE. What time we left down for lunch? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. ARCE. We usually leave down about 5 to 12, something around there. + +Mr. BALL. How did you go down stairs? + +Mr. ARCE. By the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have sort of a race that day, do you remember? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me about it. + +Mr. ARCE. Well, me and Bonnie Ray and, I am not too sure, I believe it +was Billy Lovelady, were on the same elevator, and Charles Givens and +the other guys were on the other one and we were racing down. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator were you on? + +Mr. ARCE. We have two of them that go up, the same deal and I was on +the one facing east. There's an east and a west elevator and I was in +the one facing east. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he +wanted to go down. + +Mr. BALL. He was there--on what floor? + +Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the +sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he +was on the fifth; I am not too sure. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. ARCE. He said "You all close the door on the elevator, I will be +down," or somethin'. I didn't pay too much attention. He said to leave +the elevator come down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him around there after that? + +Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't see him around after that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that? + +Mr. ARCE. I went outside. + +Mr. BALL. With whom? + +Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with +Junior. + +Mr. BALL. Who is Junior? + +Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior. + +Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you? + +Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but +he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs. + +Mr. BALL. What about Givens? + +Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess--I mean Melvin--no, +Carl, that's who he was with. + +Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty? + +Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was. + +Mr. BALL. Was he outside? + +Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time. + +Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch? + +Mr. ARCE. I don't know; I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. Who went outdoors with you? + +Mr. ARCE. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and +Charles Givens. + +Mr. BALL. You stood there how long before the parade came along? + +Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere around +there. I am not too sure about that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I did. I seen him when he turned the corner and when he +went down that underpass thing and I heard them shots and I couldn't +see anything. There was a lot of people. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots? + +Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. +I was on that grassy area part in front. + +Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk? + +Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to +get a higher view and still couldn't see. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. ARCE. Three. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the +west of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? +Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. ARCE. I was down to the west side, a little more to the west. + +Mr. BALL. Were you west of the building itself? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. You were not in front of the building? + +Mr. ARCE. I was directly in front, but then I walked a few steps down +to the west side. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to the west wall of the +building? + +Mr. ARCE. Oh, I was way far from it. I was across the street, I mean. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean "across the street"? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and +there's some grass and things up there and that's where I was at. I +couldn't tell you exactly where I was, see, it's hard to explain. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you say you were not in front of the building? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, not directly, not in front; I was across the street. + +Mr. BALL. And were you west of the west wall of the building? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, I was, well the building---- + +Mr. BALL. I understand but you were to the south of the building. You +had to be south of the building, didn't you? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, I was south but I was, well, I guess you could say I +was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, I don't +know how to explain it. + +Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, I walked away from the other guys because they were all +in front of the building and I went across the street to get a closer +view. + +Mr. BALL. You walked which direction? + +Mr. ARCE. I just--right across the street. + +Mr. BALL. Right across Elm Street? + +Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. The part of Elm that dead ends there? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. You crossed that and went on to the grassy part? + +Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what +direction? + +Mr. ARCE. From the tracks on the west deal. + +Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. ARCE. Three. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? + +Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked +directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up +there and I just ran along with them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? + +Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the +building. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? + +Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? + +Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to +make statements out. + +Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. Well, just I minute, let's see---- + +Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there. + +Mr. BALL. You saw an old man? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by? + +Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place +around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure. + +Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him? + +Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to +the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and +walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's +when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there? + +Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out. + +Mr. BALL. Was he in a car? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black +car. + +Mr. BALL. He drove away? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? + +Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again. + +Mr. BALL. Just I minute, I want to show you a picture. I show you +Commission Exhibit No. 369. I show you this picture. See this man in +this picture? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Recognize him? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady. + +Mr. BALL. Just to identify it clearly, the man on the steps--well, you +see the man on the steps, do you not? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He is a white man, isn't he? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you see his picture just above the picture of two colored +people, is that correct; would you describe it like that? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I am not going to mark this purposely because other witnesses +have to see it. + +Mr. ARCE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say that is Billy Lovelady? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, that is Billy Lovelady. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there is only one face that is clearly shown within the +entrance-way of the Texas School Book Depository Building, isn't there? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And only one face of a person who is standing on the steps of +the Depository Building entrance? + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. And that one man you see there---- + +Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady. + +Mr. BALL. When you came to work that morning, Danny---- + +Mr. ARCE. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there at the time? + +Mr. ARCE. I believe I seen him once that morning on the first floor, +some place around there. I'm not too sure. + +Mr. BALL. But did you see him go into the building? + +Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have in his possession any paper bag or +sack that day? + +Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you will have an opportunity to +read it and sign it if you wish or you can waive signature. Which do +you wish? If you waive signature, you don't have to come back. Which do +you prefer? Do either one. + +Mr. ARCE. I don't understand too well. + +Mr. BALL. She writes this up. Then if you wish, you can come in, read +it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you +swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can +waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission. + +Mr. ARCE. I guess you all could send it on to the Commission. + +Mr. BALL. And you waive signature? + +Mr. ARCE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOE R. MOLINA + +The testimony of Joe R. Molina was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you rise and raise your right hand, Mr. Molina? + +(Witness complying.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. MOLINA. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. MOLINA. Joe R. Molina. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Mr. MOLINA. 4306 Brown. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself; where were you born? + +Mr. MOLINA. I was born here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What was your education? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I went to Crozier Tech High School and I finished +after I came back from the service and at that time my intention was to +go to college but I got married and instead went to business college. +Then later on after attending about 5 months business college, I had +to find a job because my wife was expecting a baby, consequently, I +started working on-the-job training at the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. About what date? + +Mr. MOLINA. I started working in February of 1947. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there? + +Mr. MOLINA. 16 years. + +Mr. BALL. 16 years? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you wrote the Commission a letter asking to testify, +didn't you? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I called in. I didn't know whether I was going to be +called or not and they told me, you know, that I should write a letter +and ask the Commission, you know. (Letter marked Molina Exhibit A.) + +Mr. BALL. You wanted to be heard, is that right, before the Commission? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, on November 23d following the assassination, I was +paid a visit by the local police department at 1:30 in the morning and +they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another +and they thought that I was implicated. + +Mr. BALL. What makes you think they thought you were implicated? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, they were looking for something. I don't know what it +was they were looking for in the house. + +Mr. BALL. They came to your house here in Dallas? + +Mr. MOLINA. That's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife +half to death. + +Mr. BALL. Did they search the house? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did they have a search warrant? + +Mr. MOLINA. I don't know whether they did or not. + +Mr. BALL. Did they tell you what they were looking for? + +Mr. MOLINA. No. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me questions whether I knew different +persons that belong to the G.I. Forum---- + +Mr. BALL. To what? + +Mr. MOLINA. G.I. Forum, this club I belonged to here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? + +Mr. MOLINA. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling]. + +Mr. BALL. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling] in Dallas? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who was it that asked you that? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I think it was Mr. Garroway did most of the +questioning and police Lieutenant Revill, I believe--yeah, that was his +name. + +Mr. BALL. What did they ask you? + +Mr. MOLINA. They asked me if I knew certain persons that had come +into the forum when it was first initiated and if I was acquainted +with them and if I associated with them, so forth and so on. I said +my activities were limited to the club. I didn't have any social, you +know, I wasn't intimate with them but merely a club that was started. I +was asked by my pastor to go see about this particular club which I did +and consequently, the club met at the church auditorium after it was +founded and one of the parish priests was a chaplain. + +Mr. BALL. Was it a Catholic, Roman Catholic organization? + +Mr. MOLINA. The G.I. Forum? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. MOLINA. No; the forum is a veterans' club. + +Mr. BALL. What else happened? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, after the police came, they didn't know whether--they +were undecided what to do, whether they would take me in for +questioning or not and so they decided evidently, since I told +them--they asked me if they could take a look around. I said "Sure, I +don't have anything to hide, look around". They looked around and did +a lot of searching and my wife started to get back in bed. She didn't +know that was going on. She thought they just want to question me and +they told her she had to get out of bed and go into the living room +and the kids were in the back room. I only have two bedrooms and the +kids were sleeping out there. They woke up the kids; they were looking +in their room, so they started questioning the kids, too. They started +to ask me questions and ask the kids about it. In other words, to +corroborate our statements. I didn't know at the time they were doing +it but later on found out. They couldn't find anything. I knew they +wouldn't find anything. I didn't know what they were looking for in +the first place. They decided to bring me down to the Dallas Police +Department for questioning. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police department? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me if I would go down the next morning +and I said yes, I would go down the next morning. I would rather go +down the next morning than now. It was already past 2, so the next +morning my wife drove me down. I got there about 11. My wife drove me +down and I got there about 10:30. The place was full of television +people and reporters swarming all over the place and they told me to +wait in the room there and then I went into Chief Gannaway's office +or whatever his name is. He said I was supposed to be questioned by +Mr. Fritz down there but that he wanted to talk to me after they +questioned me up there because they wanted to know more about the G.I. +Forum so I said "I will come back when they get through questioning +me." So I went up there and they told me to wait in an office and so I +waited there for about 30, 40 minutes and, oh, must have been longer +than that, they finally questioned me and they put me in a room and +there was a man from the FBI or Secret Service, I don't recall which +one it was. He was sitting on my right and there was a fellow from +the Dallas Police Department taking a statement and a fellow from the +FBI introduced himself, said I'm so and so, show me his badge and so +forth. The other fellow didn't say who he was or anything, just sat +there and so then they told me to wait there in that room and I did. I +was there for about 45 minutes and then the fellow came back from the +FBI, said "My God, are you still in here?" I said "Yes," he said "How +long you been here?" Here it was about 2 or 3 o'clock. I said "I have +been here since about 11; I haven't eaten lunch or haven't had a drink +of water". You know, I was just there and which he told this fellow, +said "Can't you let him go; he has been here. He has already given his +testimony statement, whatever he is going to give; you should let him +go." This fellow said "No, he got to wait in there" so I had to go +back in there; about 10 or 15 minutes later, they came back and I went +up to the office of Lieutenant Revill and he started asking a lot of +questions about the G.I. Forum, did I know such and such fellow--some +I knew, they had been in the club. Naturally, I knew them though we +weren't intimate friends, some were, some weren't. Then he gave me a +bunch of names, I imagine they were in their so-called subversive files +that they claim they have; of course, I didn't know a lot of them. In +fact, I didn't know most of them. I knew some of the names. I didn't +know some of the names they mentioned are kept in their files or not. +Anyhow, they asked me--I had to--they didn't ask me--I had to just ask +to sign a statement I belonged to the forum and certain members were +charter members of the forum and I said yes, I would sign it. I didn't +see anything wrong with it so I signed it and they told me I could go +home. It was 4:30 or 5 and they asked me if I had a ride home and I +said no. They said "Well, we'll give you a ride home, so one of the +officers there, plainclothes man, drove me home. When I got home, of +course, there were about three or four cars at the house. My wife was +all shook up and she said "My God" she said "Don't you know what they +been saying about you?" I said "No, I don't know what they are saying +about me." She said "Don't you know you been on TV and the news media +across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the Dallas +Police Department claiming that you associate with persons of"--see +if I can quote it right--I was known to associate with persons of +subversive background. + +Mr. BALL. That was on TV? + +Mr. MOLINA. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who put that on TV? + +Mr. MOLINA. It was a statement made by Chief Curry. + +Mr. BALL. By whom? + +Mr. MOLINA. Chief Curry and I says "No, I didn't know anything about +it. I was just being questioned." They said "Well, did you tell them +to release your name?" I said "I don't know who gave my name out, gave +out the information." So, they were very concerned because at first, +I didn't think it was--I figured they would make a retraction and +I would be cleared, so forth and so on and nothing came out on the +radio and nothing was said and I called the Police Department and told +them I wanted to talk to Chief Curry and they said he was busy. I was +talking to, I think someone, fellow named King. He answered the phone +and he said any retraction has to come from Chief Curry. I called the +Associated Press which released the statement to the news media and +they wouldn't give me any satisfaction. They told me I would have to +get in touch with some fellow in New York or something like that, so +that was--I couldn't get any satisfaction. I was accused of something I +didn't know anything about. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ever give you a retraction? + +Mr. MOLINA. No. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now---- + +Mr. MOLINA. And, consequently, well, that happened on November 23d; +my boss was very upset about it. He said that the vice president of +the company, Mr. Campbell, they didn't say anything to me, they didn't +come to me and say "Joe, we will stand by you, we don't believe it." +Nothing was said for about 10 days so I went in and told them, I said, +"You don't have to be afraid, I'm going to get this thing cleared. I +am going to find somebody to clear me of this." They said "You better +do it very fast because the president is very upset about it and we +have been getting a lot of calls and several people calling in and +saying he hires subversives" and so forth and so on. I saw one letter +did say that. It came to them from some fellow said he wasn't going to +do business with that book firm because they hired Communists. I knew +they were probably under pressure. Well, on December 13, they called +me in and said they wanted to talk with me and they told me that due +to automation I was going to have to be replaced. That happened in +December 13, about 3 weeks afterwards so I told them I said "I don't +really think that's the reason why you're letting me go, it's probably +because of this other thing." He said "No, we got automation here, we +are taking too much business in so we have to let you go." No news was +ever given to me there was no machines for replacement, nothing, so I +said--well, I didn't leave until December 30 and got all the routine +work I had been assigned was gradually shifted to another person. I was +there doing nothing. I finally left December 30 and I have received +a letter from a friend in California saying my name was in the paper +stating that I had been labeled as a communist and I got a call from +Florida, from a good friend of mine saying they labeled me a communist +and saying I was a friend of Oswald's. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know him? + +Mr. MOLINA. Oswald? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. MOLINA. No; I had seen him there in the building. I had seen him +but never talked with him or been introduced. + +Mr. BALL. Where are you working now? + +Mr. MOLINA. I am working over here--that's another thing. I couldn't +find a job. Who is going to hire me? So I called this friend of mine +he belonged to the Dads Club where I go to church, Holy Trinity. His +name is Mr. Redman, vice president at Neuhoff's. I called him about a +job and he said "No, I don't have anything in your line of work." I +happened to mention to him I used to do credit union work and at that +time they happened to be looking for a man and that's the reason I +found this particular job. + +Mr. BALL. You are working at Neuhoff's Employees Credit Union? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Are you a bookkeeper; is that what you usually do is +bookkeeping? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pursue it any further; did you file any actions of +any sort? + +Mr. MOLINA. I have an attorney that is working towards something. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work what date---- + +Mr. MOLINA. I went to work in February 1947. + +Mr. BALL. For the Texas School Book Depository at that time. + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes; at that time they were located at 2210 Pacific. + +Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, the place you worked was in the +second floor of this School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes; I was standing on the front steps. + +Mr. BALL. With whom? + +Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there +was Mrs. Sanders. + +Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out +to lunch. + +Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car pass? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots. + +Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound? + +Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the +west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first +shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second +longer than the second and third. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I +didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just +shocked. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, this fellow come to me--Mr. Williams said, somebody +said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't +know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow +said "What can anybody gain by that"; he just shook his head and I +just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was +happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where +the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of +conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody +said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody +else", something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building? + +Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him? + +Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a +police officer but I did see him go inside. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in +the entrance? + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they +secured the building, you know. + +Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go +into the building? + +Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? + +Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. + +Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was +right behind me. + +Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. + +Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. + +Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? + +Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds +afterwards. + +Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before +you saw Truly go in? + +Mr. MOLINA. No. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? + +Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she +came in with this other girl. + +Mr. BALL. What did she say? + +Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both +horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm +sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that +extent. + +Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home? + +Mr. MOLINA. Oh, it must have been around, I would say, I would say it +was about 2, maybe a little before that, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MOLINA. I had seen him in the building, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? + +Mr. MOLINA. No; I never spoke to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him at all on November 22d? + +Mr. MOLINA. I never did see him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building on that day +November 22d? + +Mr. MOLINA. No; like I stated before, I came in at--to work at 7 in the +morning because I had a key and I was on the second floor all the time, +never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like +that. Then I ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs +about 12:15. + +Mr. BALL. Okay, thanks very much, Mr. Molina. This will be written up +for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can +waive your signature, whichever you wish. If you wish to sign it, this +young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read +it, and sign it. + +Mr. MOLINA. I just wanted to state in the record that I want to deny +any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind. + +Mr. BALL. No; there is nobody I ever heard has accused you of anything. + +Mr. MOLINA. I know there's a fella that I talk with that belongs to the +or had worked with the FBI that knows my position in this thing. + +Mr. BALL. I never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in +connection with this matter. + +Mr. MOLINA. In fact, Bill Lowery worked with the FBI. + +Mr. BALL. You don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of +anything. + +Mr. MOLINA. Except the local people here. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your +signature; how do you feel about it? It's your option; you can do +either way. + +Mr. MOLINA. Well, I would like to. + +Mr. BALL. See it and sign it? + +Mr. MOLINA. See it and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. She will notify you then. She will tell you when to come in. + +Mr. MOLINA. Thanks very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY + +The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Jack Edwin Dougherty. + +Mr. BALL. And your address? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. 1827 South Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Forty. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Here in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Sunset High School. + +Mr. BALL. You went through Sunset High School? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? About? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, 1937. + +Mr. BALL. 1937? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work +in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services +in October--October 24, 1942. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact. + +Mr. BALL. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the +War, was it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do during the service--during your period in the +service? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say just about a little bit of +everything, from guard duty to---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you have any active service? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they +said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they +said, they told me at the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever leave the United States during the War? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in +Indiana up there--Seymour, Ind. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go from there in the service? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I stayed there until I got discharged. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no. + +Mr. BALL. Or to the South Seas? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed in this country all the time? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. You never had any? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical +treatment or anything of that sort? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. None at all? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of the Army? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out +of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put +my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book +Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the +Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since. + +Mr. BALL. And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at +the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. September 17, 1940. + +Mr. BALL. 1940 what? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would +be---- + +Mr. BALL. That would be 1952, wouldn't it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--that's 1952. + +Mr. BALL. 1952? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; that's right, to be exact. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do between the time you got out of the service +and 1952? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed at home? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you live with your father and mother? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever been married? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. And you still live with your father and mother? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas +School Book Depository in the last few years? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh--shipping clerk. + +Mr. BALL. And what kind of work is that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the +second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the--they are +orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and +outside of doing little odd jobs besides that--that's it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald that worked at +the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe +nobody knew him too well. You might say he wouldn't have too much to +say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself, and I'll be frank with +you, I just flat didn't know him. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was +shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got there--it was after 7 o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. BALL. Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the +men get there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say, I have a little--extra chores to do. + +Mr. BALL. You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years. + +Mr. BALL. That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you did get there about 7 that morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra +chores--what are those extra chores? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. +In other words, the air pressure is up to where--up to 40 pounds so +that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that +alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call +me. + +Mr. BALL. What is the ADT? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's that--I don't know too much about it--it has +something to do with the alarm system they have got down there. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the pressure, do you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that a fire-alarm system? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--you could call it that. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what else do you do there early in the morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is +no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else you do? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; I believe that just about covers it. + +Mr. BALL. What time do you usually go to lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon. + +Mr. BALL. Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And where do you usually eat your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they have got what they call a domino room in +there and I usually eat it in there. + +Mr. BALL. You usually eat your lunch in the domino room? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And how long do you take for lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, from 12 to 12:45. + +Mr. BALL. Forty-five minutes? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you always take a full hour? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I usually do. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember the day of November 22, 1963; you do, +don't you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The day that the President was shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you went to work that day? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--let's see--it was 12:30. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that particular morning--let's see, we didn't go +back. + +Mr. BALL. No; I mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in +the morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was 8 o'clock when we were actually started to work. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get to the building? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. At a quarter to 7. + +Mr. BALL. At a quarter to 7? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers that you got there about 7 o'clock. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I mean, inside the building. + +Mr. BALL. Inside the building? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when I got inside the building it was 7 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. You parked your car? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't have a car--I have to ride the bus. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come to work that morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when he first come into the door. + +Mr. BALL. When he came in the door? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him come in the door? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands or arms? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, not that I could see of. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day was that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. That was about 8 o'clock? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What door did he come in? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, he came in the back door. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you then? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was--sitting on top of the wrapping table. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Federal +Bureau of Investigation and to a man by the name of Ellington, or a Mr. +Anderton, the day after--the 23d of November? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I talked to so many of them--it is kind of hard to +remember. + +Mr. BALL. And there is a statement that they took when they talked to +you and in it you said, "I recall vaguely, having seen Lee Oswald, when +he came to work at about 8 a.m. today." + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I did--that morning. + +Mr. BALL. That seems to be dated the 22d day of November 1963. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. The full statement is, "I am employed by the Texas School +Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as an order filler, and reside +at 1827 South Marsalis Street, Dallas, Tex." + +Did you tell them that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. "I started to work today, 11-22-63, at about 7 a.m. o'clock." + +Did you tell them that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, +when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today." + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that +morning when he came to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you +this way--you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came +in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye--that's the +reason why I said it that way. + +Mr. BALL. Did he come in with anybody? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. He was alone? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; he was alone. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall him having anything in his hand? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't see anything, if he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you +would remember whether he did or didn't? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I believe I can--yes, sir--I'll put it this way; I +didn't see anything in his hands at the time. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in +his hands? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I would say that--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or, are you guessing? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't think so. + +Mr. BALL. You saw him come in the door? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The back door on the first floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was in the back door. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That +back door would be the first floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And it opens where? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. On the back dock--on the back dock side over there. + +Mr. BALL. That would be what direction from the first floor--what wall +of the first floor--north? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, to be frank with you--I don't know +which one it would be. + +Mr. BALL. Is there only one back door? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; there is only one back door. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him again that morning? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; just one more time. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. On the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was about 11 o'clock--that was the last time I saw +him. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing up there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some +stock--as far as I could tell. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock also. + +Mr. BALL. And were there some other workmen up there at the time? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Not that I know of. + +Mr. BALL. Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, +Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that +morning--laying floor on the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; they were laying floor--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And were they there at the time you were there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes, sir; they were there--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the same time you saw Oswald? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; just about that time. + +Mr. BALL. And how long were you on the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, just long enough to get some stock. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went to the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also +on the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Then, just about that time--I thought I heard---- + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you go to lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was 12 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here +dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William +O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey +Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the +sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't see him again after that, is that your +testimony? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the truth? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that +you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were +working on the sixth floor. Were you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; we were working on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. You weren't helping the men lay floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. To what floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. The first floor. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get down there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--used the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down alone or with someone? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went down alone. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. In the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what time did you go back to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, at 12:30. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a +motorcade that noon? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they said something about it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you intend to go out and watch him? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched +him but the steps were so crowded--there was no way in the world I +could get out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it--did you go out and take a look at +it, or didn't you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you +finished your lunch, didn't you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished +your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir--just a short length of time. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then, I went back to work. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let me see--oh, up to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About what time? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was about 12:40--it was about 12:40. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard any shots before that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I heard one--it sounded like a backfire. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard that shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was on the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor +or the sixth floor to go back to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go +down to eat lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Yes; and then what happened? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---- + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you hear the shots before or after you had +your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Before--before I ate my lunch. + +Mr. BALL. You heard shots before you ate your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see--yes, I believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to +work that day? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the +22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of +Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the +first floor to eat your lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And that you went back to work? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, +that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you +arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get +some stock? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right--it sounded like a car backfiring. + +Mr. BALL. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; that was the only one I heard. + +Mr. BALL. You only heard one? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And where did it sound like it came from? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere. + +Mr. BALL. From overhead? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get to the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Elevator. + +Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this +side--the one on this side is the one I took. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," +doesn't mean much when it's written down. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I know it. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side +elevator? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. East side. + +Mr. BALL. Is it the one that you punch a button on? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or the one that you use a control on? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It's the one you push a button on. + +Mr. BALL. The one you push a button on? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I believe that is the west side, isn't it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I believe it is. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that's the one you took up? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you take that--to what floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I took it up to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth +floor, I came back down to the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do on the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got some stock. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened then? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise--it sounded +like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I +asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the +President been shot?" He said, "Yes." + +Mr. BALL. You didn't say--did you say, "Has the President been +shot?"--you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor +and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud +noise. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I asked him that too. + +Mr. BALL. And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you +that somebody had just shot the President; is that right? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot +first--you or Eddie Piper? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Eddie Piper. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the +President had been shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't know that at the time. + +Mr. BALL. When is the first time you heard that the President had been +shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. When Eddie told me that. + +Mr. BALL. Eddie told you that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation +that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it +appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell +where--you told him that on the 19th; did you tell him that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you +told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderton that you heard "a loud +explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor +above me." + +Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from +the next floor above you, or didn't you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car +backfiring. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor +above you, or didn't you tell them that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. You did not tell them that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did it sound like it came from the floor above you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at the time it did--yes. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me this--when you heard that explosion or whatever +it was--that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor--tell me +exactly where you were? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator--the +west side of the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what were you doing? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I came on back downstairs. + +Mr. BALL. How did you come downstairs? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I used that push button elevator on the west side. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I didn't hear anybody yell. + +Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men--I imagine it was who it was--he +showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I +told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know +where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking +for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun +and shells. + +Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found +the shotgun and shells? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth +floor, which I didn't find. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a gun around there? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I sure didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building that day? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did. + +Mr. BALL. Who said that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw +him carrying a fairly good-sized package. + +Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was--the day after it happened. + +Mr. BALL. Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the +shots? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I'm positive. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't see nobody--there wasn't nobody on the +fifth floor at all--it was just myself. + +Mr. BALL. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had +been on the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then you went down to the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, +before you went to the fifth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---- + +Mr. BALL. That was in the morning, wasn't it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That wasn't after lunch, was it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was before lunch--it was before lunch. + +Mr. BALL. You think it was before lunch you heard the shot? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. I believe it was--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were alone, were you? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up and +if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you +can waive your signature. + +What do you want to do? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, whatever you want to do--it doesn't make any +difference. + +Mr. BALL. Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, if you've got time I'll sign it now. + +Mr. BALL. Well, we have to write it up--this has to be written up and +it will be so that you can read it. This young lady will notify you and +you can come down and read it over and sign it. + +Will you do that? + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. All right. + +Mr. BALL. And we will mark these statements as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. +A, B, and C, and attach them to your deposition. + +Thank you very much, and goodby. + +Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's quite all right--thank you. + +(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dougherty Exhibits +Nos. A, B, and C, for identification.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER + +The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 8, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel +of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name please, Mr. Piper? + +Mr. PIPER. Eddie Piper. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your address? + +Mr. PIPER. 1507-1/2 McCoy. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me, Mr. Piper, where you were born and raised. + +Mr. PIPER. In Travis County. + +Mr. BALL. Texas? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. PIPER. I went to school at Manor, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. How far of school did you go? + +Mr. PIPER. Eighth grade. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? + +Mr. PIPER. I went to work then. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work? + +Mr. PIPER. I went to work doing harvest work, some in oil field in +Chickasha, Okla., and done farm work. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in the Army? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. PIPER. 56. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, I would say I have been working for them about 4 or 5 +years--I'm not sure--I don't know exactly. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? + +Mr. PIPER. Janitor. + +Mr. BALL. Have you been janitor ever since you were employed? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Oswald, that worked +there? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; I know of him. + +Mr. BALL. You knew of him? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know him personally? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that +sort? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember? + +Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and +he would just keep walking. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you remember that day, don't you? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day? + +Mr. PIPER. 10 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. That was your usual time to go to work? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And, did you see Oswald that morning? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor filling orders. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day? + +Mr. PIPER. You mean all day--the rest of the day? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. PIPER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him? + +Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock? + +Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him--"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll +go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"--he mumbled something--I don't know +whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off +of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor? + +Mr. PIPER. No, not the first window--but on the first floor about the +second window on the first floor. I was intending to sit there so I +could see the parade because the street was so crowded with people--I +didn't see anything. + +Mr. BALL. You said you sat at the second window--that would be what +window from the corner? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, from the front door, you know where the front door +is--going back right down Elm, it's the second window from the corner. + +Mr. BALL. You say you sat down there? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you sit on? + +Mr. PIPER. On a box. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see out the window? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see +anything--too many people. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch there? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by? + +Mr. PIPER. Now, I don't know--I was sitting there, I'm sure. + +Mr. BALL. When the President went by, where were you sitting? + +Mr. PIPER. Probably sitting there in the same place. + +Mr. BALL. Did you move from there from the time you had your lunch +until the President went by? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, I moved--when there was a shot, I moved. + +Mr. BALL. When there was a shot you moved? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. From the time you had your lunch until the shot, did you move? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were at that window all of the time? + +Mr. PIPER. All the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go up on the sixth floor? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there at any time that day? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you above the first floor that day up to the time of the +shot? + +Mr. PIPER. Before the shot? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. PIPER. At 11 o'clock I went to the fourth floor to pick up. + +Mr. BALL. You went to the fourth floor? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, at 11 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. And you worked there for how long? + +Mr. PIPER. I would just take about 10 or 15 minutes to pick up--not +quite that long, to pick up the mail and stuff in the fourth floor +office. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. PIPER. I came back down to the third floor and picked up and from +there to the second and picked up and on to the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. Is that what you usually did--was pick up? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; every day. + +Mr. BALL. Do you do that every day? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You pick up mail? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You pick up mail from what offices? + +Mr. PIPER. From--what the name of the office is? + +Mr. BALL. The different offices? + +Mr. PIPER. Oh, I pick up mail first--on the fourth floor is Scott +Pharmacy, and I come down on the third floor and I pick up there in +the hall, you know, they have a hallway there and they put it out on +the table--the packages and the mail, and I pick it up there unless +they've got a name on the boards to see them in the office and then I +go in the office. That's on the third floor. I come down on the second +floor and I pick up for Southwestern. I goes in the office and that's +the only office I go in there at Southwestern. Like I say--unless there +is anything on the board that says see Lon Cunningham, and then I go +in there. That's on the second floor, and from there back down to the +first floor, and I unloads on the table on the first floor and that's +when I'm through--I don't go back no more. + +Mr. BALL. You do that every day? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. At a certain time? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. At what time? + +Mr. PIPER. At 11 and 3. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that day, November 22, 1963, you picked up the mail on +the fourth floor at 11 did you? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then came to the third? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then to the second? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what time did you come to the first floor? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, it was close to--around about--it must have been about +11:30--about 11:30 when I came back. + +Mr. BALL. Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, +from 11:30 until 12? + +Mr. PIPER. No. + +Mr. BALL. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you +thought you would have your lunch? + +Mr. PIPER. Just about 12 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. And do you remember exactly what he said? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was +muttering out something--I didn't know whether he said he was going up +or going out. + +Mr. BALL. He said something like that? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes--something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see what he did? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see where he went? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You told me that you went to the window? + +Mr. PIPER. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. This is the second window to the right? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Of the front door--that would be looking toward Elm Street, +is that right? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And were you sitting there when you heard the shot? + +Mr. PIPER. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard? + +Mr. PIPER. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off--the one +that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make +coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and +before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the +people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, +and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone. + +Mr. BALL. You say you heard one shot--you heard two shots and you got +up and then what happened, where did you go? + +Mr. PIPER. I came out to the end of the counter where they make coffee +there by the stand. + +Mr. BALL. You said you did it so you could see out better? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was--when all this +happened--to see what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. What time was it? + +Mr. PIPER. It was about between 12:30--between 12:27 and +12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember. + +Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir--I couldn't, not for sure. + +Mr. BALL. The direction? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look out the window later? + +Mr. PIPER. No more--no, sir; I didn't go back to any window. + +Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly? + +Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it +was, but another fellow was with him. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you? + +Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee. + +Mr. BALL. What did they do? + +Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, +"I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly." + +They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about +that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor? + +Mr. PIPER. No--no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You never did--either before or after the shots? + +Mr. PIPER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that day, you went over to the sheriff's office and made +a statement, didn't you? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir--no, sir; not that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did you the next day? + +Mr. PIPER. Saturday. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sheriff's department? + +Mr. PIPER. I went to the county--yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell them at any time that you saw Lee about 12 +o'clock? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And that Lee said, "I'm going up to eat?" + +Mr. PIPER. He said either "up" or "out"--that's the way I reported it. + +Mr. BALL. That's what you told them? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on that day, did you tell them that the shots that you +heard seemed to come from inside the building? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You did tell them that? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was that your best impression then? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; they seemed like they did come from the building, you +know, by the vibration of that window--it seemed like nobody had shot +in the window from the outside--it might have been coming from the +building--is what I figured. + +Mr. BALL. You told them that day that you thought it came from inside +the building? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. From inside the building? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you made to the sheriff's department, +I'll show it to you--that's a copy there and is that your signature? + +Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's my signature. + +Mr. BALL. We'll attach that as Exhibit A to your deposition. + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Piper Exhibit No. A," for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and you can come down here +and look it over and sign it, if you wish. + +Mr. PIPER. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Or, you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Do you +have any choice--which had you rather do? + +Mr. PIPER. Well, what is supposed to be done--I don't really quite +understand? + +Mr. BALL. You can do it either way. You see, we are going to write it +up--this young lady will write it up and if you want to come down and +sign it, you can come down and sign it, or you don't need to sign it. +You can waive your signature and we will send it on as it is written +up. It is up to you which you would rather do. + +Mr. PIPER. Well, I can sign it, but I don't know when I am supposed to +come back to sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you will be notified. + +Mr. PIPER. All right. I'll do that. + +Mr. BALL. All right, she will call you and ask you to come back and +sign it. + +Mr. PIPER. All right, I'll come back and sign it. + +Mr. BALL. All right, thank you very much. + +Mr. PIPER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MISS VICTORIA ELIZABETH ADAMS + +The testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams was taken at 2:15 p.m., +on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please. Do +you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the +President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Miss ADAMS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Would you please state your name? + +Miss ADAMS. Victoria Elizabeth Adams. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you known as Vickie Adams? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Miss ADAMS. 4906 Wenonah, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Miss ADAMS. I am employed as an office survey representative. + +Mr. BELIN. By whom? + +Miss ADAMS. Scott Foresman Co. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you work? + +Miss ADAMS. On the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Where? + +Miss ADAMS. 411 Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. That is at the corner of Elm and Houston? + +Miss ADAMS. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. I might ask how old are you? + +Miss ADAMS. Twenty-three. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born originally? In Texas? + +Miss ADAMS. San Francisco, Calif. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in San Francisco? + +Miss ADAMS. I attended part of my grammar school and high school in San +Francisco. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you graduated from high school? + +Miss ADAMS. In San Francisco, that's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Miss ADAMS. Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, +Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do from there? + +Miss ADAMS. I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate +Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was +employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I +obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here. + +Mr. BELIN. And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes; for 1 year. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went to work for Scott Foresman? + +Miss ADAMS. I went to work for Scott Foresman. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you at work on November 22, 1963? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you aware of the fact that the President's motorcade +was going to go right by your building? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you learn of this information? + +Miss ADAMS. Through newspaper media and also conversation. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when you first read about it in the papers? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it have been before November 22d? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the motorcade passed? + +Miss ADAMS. I was at the---- + +Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside the building? + +Miss ADAMS. I was inside the building. + +Mr. BELIN. What floor? + +Miss ADAMS. Fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade through a window? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometimes that is kind of complicated to try and pick out +which window if you are counting from the right or left, so I am going +to count from the east side of the building to the west side of the +building. + +Now the windows are separate windows, but they are kind of in pairs, so +to speak. Were you standing on the first pair of windows, either one of +those two windows? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Counting from the east side, were you standing in the second +pair of windows? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of +either of those windows? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now of that third pair, from the east side, would it have +been the east window or the west window? + +Miss ADAMS. The west window. + +Mr. BELIN. So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in +single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth +window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that +correct? + +Miss ADAMS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. With whom? + +Miss ADAMS. I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and +Dorothy May Garner. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you +heard? + +Miss ADAMS. I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from +Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and +apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because +he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had +a very good view of both of them. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come +directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or +not, if you can remember? + +Miss ADAMS. I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Miss ADAMS. And from our vantage point we were able to see what the +President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that +would attract women's attention. Then we heard--then we were obstructed +from the view. + +Mr. BELIN. By what? + +Miss ADAMS. A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a +second shot, and then a third shot. + +It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed +as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. +Possibly because of the report. + +And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the +back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley +and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston +Street dock. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you +mean now you were on the way out? + +Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out. + +Mr. BELIN. Was anyone going along with you? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; Sandra Styles. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into +the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which +would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth +floor, is that correct? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got into the stockroom, where did you go? + +Miss ADAMS. I went to the back stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth +floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Those stairs would be in the northwest corner of the +building, is that correct? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you +went down the stairs? + +Miss. ADAMS. I was running. We were running. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of shoes did you have on? + +Miss ADAMS. Three-inch heels. + +Mr. BELIN. You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did +you encounter anyone? + +Miss ADAMS. Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the +stockroom, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth +floor other than the person you were with? + +Miss ADAMS. Outside of our office employees; no. + +Mr. BELIN. Would these office employees that you might have seen, all +be women? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you got to the stairs and you started going down the +stairs. You went from the fourth floor to the third floor? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct? + +Mr. BELIN. Anyone on the stairs then? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth +floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running? + +Miss ADAMS. The elevator was not moving. + +Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was not moving on some other floor? + +Miss ADAMS. Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and +this is evidenced because of a wooden grate. + +Mr. BELIN. By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you +have to lift up to get on the elevator? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look to see if the elevator was moving? + +Miss ADAMS. It was not; no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It was not moving? + +Miss ADAMS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been +located? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. As you got to the third door, did you take a look at the +elevator again at all, or not, if you remember? + +Miss ADAMS. I can't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see +anyone on the third floor? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the +third to the second? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see +anyone by the second floor? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down +the stairs towards the first floor? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see +anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Who did you see? + +Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor? + +Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street +dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, +so I don't know how you would describe that. + +Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the +Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where +you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, +and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that +correct? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I have a document here called Commission's Exhibit No. +496, which includes a diagram of the first door, and there is a No. 7 +and a circle on it, and I have pointed to a place marked No. 7 on the +diagram. Is that correct? + +Miss ADAMS. That is approximate. + +Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got +to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to +the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did +you see any other employees there? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other people prior to the time you saw them? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down +the stairs, did you hear anyone using the stairs? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the +superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. What about any motorcycle police officers? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and +Mr. Lovelady? + +Miss ADAMS. I said I believed the President was shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what they said? + +Miss ADAMS. Nothing. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Miss ADAMS. I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston +Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which +is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct? + +And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go from there? + +Miss ADAMS. I proceeded--which way is east and west? + +Mr. BELIN. East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards +the railroad tracks. + +You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston +Street? + +Miss ADAMS. I went west towards the tracks. + +Mr. BELIN. How far west did you go? + +Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there +was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." +And I said, "But I work here." + +And he said, "That is tough, get back." + +I said, "Well, was the President shot?" + +And he said, "I don't know. Go back." + +And I said, "All right." + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Miss ADAMS. I went back, only I went southwest. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you +come back the same entrance you went out? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You went back in through the front entrance, through the +front of the building? + +Miss ADAMS. Well, I didn't go back in right away. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that +goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the +freeway. Did you go back either of those streets? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the +building. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Miss ADAMS. When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed +several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was +standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with +me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" + +And she said, "I don't know." + +And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot. + +There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm +directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there +to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots +had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or +the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open +window on the fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they say second floor or second floor from the top? + +Miss ADAMS. It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better +go back into the building, and going up the stairs---- + +Mr. BELIN. Now at this time when you went back into the building, were +there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people +out? + +Miss ADAMS. There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was +prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I +told him I worked there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he let you come back in? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Miss ADAMS. Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger +elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the +stairs to the second floor. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of +the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken +to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator? + +Miss ADAMS. By the passenger elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Do those stairs go above floor 2? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir; they didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the second floor? + +Miss ADAMS. I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and +just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating +there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went +out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one +on the northwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the +stairs or the other one? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes; the one nearest the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Miss ADAMS. I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second +floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed +they were plainclothesmen. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Miss ADAMS. I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but +it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we +went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time +sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time +between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the +building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you +don't have one. + +Miss ADAMS. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was +running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of +the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the +report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and +returned to the building. + +Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were +fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway? + +Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to +get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs? + +Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, +because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult. + +Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you to get from the window to +the bottom of the stairs on the first floor? + +Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most. + +Mr. BELIN. So you think that from the time you left the window on the +fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the +first floor, was approximately 1 minute? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither +Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. You heard no one else running down the stairs? + +Miss ADAMS. Correct. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed +to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. +Lovelady? + +Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a +place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east +elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady? + +Miss ADAMS. I saw them there. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean; you saw them? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to +the bottom of the first floor? + +Miss ADAMS. Definitely. + +Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or did you know Lee Harvey Oswald either by +sight or by name? + +Miss ADAMS. I didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald, per se. I didn't know his +name. I recognized him after I saw him on television, as having been +with some men, but I had no dealing with him. + +Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean having been employed with some men by the +Texas School Book Depository? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever +encounter Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Miss ADAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that +might be relevant to anything connected with the assassination? + +Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, +there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about +from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, +and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we +were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was +standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing +or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent. + +Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you +left? + +Miss ADAMS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. That is helpful information. Is there any other information +that you have that could be relevant? + +Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston +and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and +when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because +he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we +noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was +asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe +a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked +very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby. + +And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses +to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I +don't know whether that is relevant or what. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was +this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw +this? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else? + +Miss ADAMS. That is all, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to +read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you +can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it +directly to us. Do you have any preference? + +Miss ADAMS. I think I will let you use your own discretion. + +Mr. BELIN. It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any +difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip +down here. + +Miss ADAMS. That is all right. + +Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for your cooperation. We know that it +has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer? + +Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GENEVA L. HINE + +The testimony of Geneva L. Hine was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear the testimony you will give the Commission will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss HINE. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Miss HINE. Geneva L. Hine. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live. + +Miss HINE. 2305 Oakdale Road in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born +and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done. + +Miss. HINE. I was born and raised in Martinsville, Ind., and I +graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same +town. I attended the Ball State Teachers' College in Muncie, Ind., +and I attended Metropolitan Bible Institute in Suffern, N.Y., and I +received my Bachelor of Science theology degree from Assembly of God +College in Waxahachie, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Miss HINE. Oh, I have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the +job I have now. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go to work at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Miss HINE. In December 1956. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there? + +Miss HINE. I have the credit desk. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in November, November 22, 1963, where was your desk; in +what part of the building? + +Miss HINE. My desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along +by the corridor. + +Mr. BALL. Did you spend most of your time at your desk? + +Miss HINE. At that time? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; at that time. + +Miss HINE. No, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and +see. + +Mr. BALL. I mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a +desk job? + +Miss HINE. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go in the other floors of the building any? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; as my duties necessitated I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first meet him? + +Miss HINE. I never met him to know his name but I saw him every day. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? + +Miss HINE. Downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want +to call it. + +Mr. BALL. The first floor? + +Miss HINE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him on any other floors? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I saw him on the second floor about noontime +almost every day. He would come in and ask for change, for a dime or +quarter. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him use any part of the second floor? + +Miss HINE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and I wouldn't +have seen it. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the coke machine? + +Miss HINE. Out in the little lunchroom back of our office. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you? + +Miss HINE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He never replied to you? + +Miss HINE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him smile or laugh? + +Miss HINE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of an expression did he have on his face most of +the time? + +Miss HINE. I describe it as being stoic. + +Mr. BALL. That's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile. + +Miss HINE. It was just---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever mention this to any of the people around there +about Oswald? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I mentioned it to Mr. Shelley. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you +have working down here" and I said that just as a matter of slang +because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking +to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak +to me because I have to go down there to pick up the little "comp" or +gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, +say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just +made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many +times and he never answered. + +Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say? + +Miss HINE. He said that was just his way. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to +be a motorcade or parade come by your building? + +Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you find that out? + +Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I +cannot remember. + +Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact? + +Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the +office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the +President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions +and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they +couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the +telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I had +previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building +before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought +nothing about it. + +Mr. BALL. Did they all go out? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on +that second floor office? + +Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because +he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was +about there. + +Mr. BALL. Then he went out? + +Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will +go out for 5 minutes." + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams. + +Mr. BALL. He works in the office, too? + +Miss HINE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then +we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system. + +Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard? + +Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time? + +Miss HINE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I was alone until the lights all went out and the +phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one +was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window +in our office. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look out? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston +Street. + +Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left +and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw +him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I +saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I +saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming +up was when I heard the shots. + +Mr. BALL. How many did you hear? + +Miss HINE. Three. + +Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building. + +Mr. BALL. How do you know that? + +Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the +explosion coming in. + +Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so +terrific. + +Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the +next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course +I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people +running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people +falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm. + +Mr. BALL. You could see--could you see any part of Elm? + +Miss HINE. East, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across +east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was +if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into +the foyer. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That opens on---- + +Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---- + +Mr. BALL. Steps lead down? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the +elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right +and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing +company. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get +in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that +had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know +if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back +to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern +Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this +was because those windows face out. + +Mr. BALL. On to Elm? + +Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I +could hear her but she didn't answer the door. + +Mr. BALL. Was the door locked? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was which company? + +Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co. + +Mr. BALL. Did you call to her? + +Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer +me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They +have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. +I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I +turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door. + +Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office? + +Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the +telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come +in. + +Mr. BALL. Did they did come in rapidly? + +Miss HINE. They did come in rapidly. + +Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when +I came back in right then. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about +four or five people that came in. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went +to the telephone? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that +there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of +those. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she +didn't see anybody there. + +Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the +phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody +was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he +said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it" and so I was busy +with the phone. + +Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately +busy with the phone? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in? + +Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have +come in at. + +Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him? + +Miss HINE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? + +Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and +they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? + +Miss HINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who were they? + +Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. +Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted +for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; +which do you prefer? Do you have any choice? + +Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it. + +Mr. BALL. Prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform +you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it. + +Miss HINE. Okay. + +Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. + +Miss HINE. You are very welcome. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MISS DORIS BURNS + +The testimony of Miss Doris Burns was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 7, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn. + +Miss BURNS. (complying). + +Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss BURNS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. What is your name, please? + +Miss BURNS. Doris Burns. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Miss BURNS. 2617 Shelby, Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Miss BURNS. I am a correspondent for the Macmillan Co. + +Mr. BALL. Where is your office? + +Miss BURNS. In the Texas School Book Depository Building on the third +floor. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born +and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been. + +Miss BURNS. Well, I was born in Tyler, Tex., and I graduated from high +school here in Dallas and I worked many years for lawyers here. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work? + +Miss BURNS. Well, I was just a legal secretary and worked for Vanette +Hosiery Mills, secretary to the president. They are not here any more, +I don't think. After that I worked for a geologist. + +Mr. BALL. Most of your work has been secretarial, has it? + +Miss BURNS. Yes, but at Macmillan I mostly compose my own letters. + +Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Macmillan? + +Miss BURNS. April 19, 1955. Am I too fast? + +Mr. BALL. She can write as fast as you talk. + +Miss BURNS. That's wonderful. + +Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. + +Miss BURNS. Let's see, I've forgotten what else you wanted to know. + +Mr. BALL. Well, first of all, you went to work in 1955? + +Miss BURNS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the office of the Macmillan Co.? + +Miss BURNS. Well, at that time it was on Ross and Akard; now---- + +Mr. BALL. Where was it in November 1963? + +Miss BURNS. At Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. What part of the building? + +Miss BURNS. On the third floor, room 301. + +Mr. BALL. Are there any windows in those offices? + +Miss BURNS. Yes; they have some windows; they face the west, I guess +you would say. They don't overlook the route of the President's---- + +Mr. BALL. Do they or do they not overlook Elm Street? + +Miss BURNS. They do not overlook Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. They overlook the railroad yards, do they? + +Miss BURNS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what were you doing that day? + +Miss BURNS. I was listening to the radio as I worked. + +Mr. BALL. About noon, did you go to lunch? + +Miss BURNS. Well, I had lunch at the office and then I didn't intend +to go see the President, didn't have any desire to but I left about--I +don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when I left they said on the +radio that he--that the motorcade was coming up, I believe it was Cedar +Springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that +he was going about 5 miles an hour so everybody could see him. Well, +thinking he was going that slowly, I thought I had plenty of time, so I +walked up to Sanger's. + +Mr. BALL. To where? + +Miss BURNS. Sanger's. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that? + +Miss BURNS. It's about four blocks up Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. Which way on Elm--east? + +Miss BURNS. East; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the +street; nothing else down there. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened? + +Miss BURNS. I bought some Kleenex and came back, and everybody was out +on the steps to look, but I didn't stop. I went on back to the office. + +Mr. BALL. That is the third floor? + +Miss BURNS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was anybody in the office? + +Miss BURNS. Yes; Mrs. Case hadn't ever gone out. She was there. I +believe she was the only one. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Miss BURNS. I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that +he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so +since he was that close, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out +the window. I didn't care enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will +go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if +he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around +there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office +closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in +there, so then I started down the hall to Allyn and Bacon. As I went +down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, +I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, +know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they +all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that. + +I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at +the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him +if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, +my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of +course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or +something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said +"Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had +the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing, so I said +"Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back +out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got +hurt." + +Mr. BALL. You heard how many shots? + +Miss BURNS. One. + +Mr. BALL. Just one? + +Miss BURNS. It must have been the last one because I didn't hear any +more. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have any idea where it was coming from? + +Miss BURNS. Well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. You see, +I was going towards Houston Street. I was facing east and it sounded to +me as if it came toward my back. + +Mr. BALL. You were in the building? + +Miss BURNS. Yes; I was in the building. + +Mr. BALL. Walking down the hall? + +Miss BURNS. Walking down the hall going towards Allyn and Bacon. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that? + +Miss BURNS. I came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a +few minutes, why, they told it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Miss BURNS. I rode on the elevator with him one time. + +Mr. BALL. That's all? + +Miss BURNS. But I didn't know who he was--about a week before. + +Mr. BALL. You never talked to him? + +Miss BURNS. I never talked to him. + +Mr. BALL. Who were you with at the time this happened? + +Miss BURNS. The Macmillan Co. + +Mr. BALL. Who was in the office with you? + +Miss BURNS. Mrs. Case, but I couldn't see her. + +Mr. BALL. She was in the same office? + +Miss BURNS. I have a private office. She was around the corner where +her office is. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Case? + +Miss BURNS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time? + +Miss BURNS. Yes, but I didn't know---- + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Miss BURNS. It was after that; I went to the restroom. + +Mr. BALL. How long after? + +Miss BURNS. I imagine maybe it was 25 minutes. I imagine it was the +policeman or somebody; of course, I don't know who it was. + +Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Miss Burns. This will be written up and +you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your +signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. Which would +you rather do? + +Miss BURNS. I can waive signature if that is all right. + +Mr. BALL. Fine, thank you very much, Miss Burns. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARY E. BLEDSOE + +The testimony of Mary E. Bledsoe was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 2, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, +David W. Belin, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe was accompanied by her +attorney, Miss Melody June Douthit. + + +Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mrs. Bledsoe, please. Will you raise +your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you +are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I do. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Mary E. Bledsoe. + +Mr. BALL. And your residence? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. 621 North Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, you received a letter from the counsel for the +Commission asking you to be here today, didn't you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you received that what date? March 26, or was it March 27? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. When? This first time? + +Miss DOUTHIT. No, back. + +Mr. BALL. I mean the letter your attorney just showed me. Seventeenth +of March? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And you have come down here in response to that letter, +haven't you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present +at this time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You've been asked to give testimony in this matter which +concerns an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, +and certain facts which you have, which I believe that you knew of, and +we are going to ask you questions about it. That is the general subject +of the investigation. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify, are you not? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And give us as much help as you can? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What is your--you have given us your address, haven't you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something, briefly, about your past life? +Where you were born and what your education was and what your +occupation has been? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I was born in the country. Town of about 12 miles from +Corsicanna, Tex. My father was a doctor down there, and I was a second +child; I have a brother older than I am. And then I moved to Ennis, +and then come to Dallas and lived here until I was a little girl, 4 or +5 years old, then I went back down to Ennis and my father practiced +medicine in Ennis, Tex., and then about--I married then when I was 17, +and then I moved around quite a little while I was married, but--and +then my husband and I, we had trouble, and I divorced him in--oh, about +in 1925, and I raised my two children by myself, and I have been in the +place where I live 24 years, and over on the back, I was--I have been +here 43 years in the neighborhood, and I raised both of my boys, and +they are grown. + +Mr. BALL. Your occupation has been that of a housewife? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. Well, I had rented rooms, but I had some money my +father had given me. I had some money from him. + +Mr. BALL. Your present address, you rent rooms, do you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I do, now. I have just started in September again. +My son left home, you see, and I started---- + +Mr. BALL. That was September of 1963? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How large a house is that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is all on one floor. And I have four bedrooms, +but I rent three. + +Mr. BALL. In September of 1963, you were living there alone, were you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son was living there. + +Mr. BALL. And he left? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Did you rent rooms before your son left your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see, now, oh, yes; uh-huh, in September I---- + +Mr. BALL. Except his bedroom? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. When he left you rented another bedroom, did you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well yes; I am trying to. Haven't got it rented. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever rent a room in your home to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me about the first time that you ever saw him. +What the date was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. The first time I ever saw him or heard of him, I was in +the backyard doing a lot of yardwork. I come around the house and he +was standing on the porch, and he said, "Do you have a room for rent?" + +I had a "for rent" sign out. I said, "Yes" and he said, "May I see it?" + +And I wanted--"Yes"; and then I was trying to size him up to get in +that room, and--in the house, and I said, "Are you married?" + +And he said, "Yes; I am married. I just want this for a short time. My +wife lives at Irving." + +And then we got inside the house and he had a thing where +this--pictures of his wife and baby, and he said he was in the Marine +Corps, and I tried to be nice to him, and so, he paid me $7, and---- + +Mr. BALL. Then did he tell you what his name was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. His name was Oswald, and he put it on this thing, and my +son took it and sold it. + +Mr. BALL. You said he put it on this thing? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. This right here. + +Mr. BALL. What is, "this thing"? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Calendar. + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Mary, why don't you pull up your chair and be comfortable +while you are doing this. Now, you are all right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you have a calendar here? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is my calendar. + +Mr. BALL. That is the calendar for December 1963, and I notice it has +dates and names and dates. Is that the way you keep books on your rooms? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I don't now. I did then, because I just had +started. The first one I got was in September. + +Mr. BALL. September of 1963? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. He put his name on the calendar? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, got it in September. He got it, my son sold it for +$5, and I didn't even know that he tore that out. + +Mr. BALL. Now, let me see here in this calendar. It runs from January +1963, to December of 1963, but October of 1963, has been torn out? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. And he said his name was Lee Oswald was what his +name was, and I said, "Well, I can't think of that name Oswald, I will +call you Lee." + +So, he put it down on the 4th. Just rented for a week, you see, the 7th. + +Mr. BALL. You said the 4th? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the 7th. + +Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October? That is the first day you ever saw him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Ever saw him. + +Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October you rented the room to him, didn't you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And is that the date that he put his name on the calendar? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is the day. + +Mr. BALL. He paid you $7? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. $7 in money. + +Mr. BALL. That was the rental? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. For one room. + +Mr. BALL. For one room for 1 week? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When did he move into the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right then. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have his things? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Had his things on his hand and had his bag, but after he +paid my $7 he went out--I don't know, I think this YMCA, but I am not +supposed to know where, and brought back another bag, and then he said, +"Well, where is the grocery store?" + +Well, I said, "It is down that way," but I didn't want him to use the +kitchen, so, he said, "I'm going to get some milk," and so, I didn't +like that much, but I didn't say anything about it because I wanted to +get along with him. + +Mr. BALL. Let me ask you some questions before we commence the grocery +store part of it. + +When you first saw him, did he have his luggage with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. A bag. + +Mr. BALL. Will you describe the bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember where--seemed like it was a kind of a +duffelbag. + +Mr. BALL. The kind the men in the service put their clothes in? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know. + +Mr. BALL. Had some things on a coathanger? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And had a clock. + +Mr. BALL. Had what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. A clock, wrapped up. + +Mr. BALL. What color was this duffelbag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it was blue. + +Mr. BALL. That was the only bag he had with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, he went off to town and got another one. + +Mr. BALL. Then he went off to town and brought another bag back, would +you describe that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, I didn't pay any attention to it. + +Mr. BALL. Was it leather or---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I couldn't say. + +Mr. BALL. Could you give me any idea of the size of it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was big. About like that [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. About like that, you mean, oh, 3 feet long, 2 feet, 2-1/2? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about like that. + +Mr. BALL. About---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. About 2 feet long? Was it brown? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I just couldn't remember. I didn't pay any attention to +it. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember him carrying it into the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember he went in. + +Mr. BALL. Now---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I didn't pay any attention. He rented the room, and +I didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. BALL. Did he carry it by a handle, or in his arms? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he carried it by a handle, but I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. He brought two bags into this room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; wasn't but one when he come in, but next time he +went off---- + +Mr. BALL. He brought another one back? + +How did he come out there, do you know? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I don't know whether he come here--he come +and just knocked on the door. I was in the backyard. + +Mr. BALL. After he moved, after he put his bags in his room, did he +leave? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he said---- + +Mr. BALL. I mean, did he leave to go downtown to get the other bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, and come back. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. The time he went to get the other bag, did you see him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of transportation he had? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I guess I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him drive up in a car? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, always took a bus. + +Mr. BALL. How do you know that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw--one time he stopped over there across the +street and get the bus that is the only time I didn't--I didn't watch +what he did. Of course, I had no idea he was the kind of man he was. + +Mr. BALL. You say that he asked you where the grocery store was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Is that when he came back with this second bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh, I got him something to eat. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him anything about his using your +refrigerator? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. One question. Ask her how long he was gone and you will +know how far he went. That is what I wanted to know. + +Mr. BALL. When he left to get this second bag, how long was he gone? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, not over an hour. About an hour. It wasn't a +long--I wondered then where he went, but it wasn't none of my business. + +Mr. BALL. You say now not over an hour. Do you think it might have been +less than an hour? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I believe less than an hour. + +Mr. BALL. How much less? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd say 40 minutes, anyway, at most. + +Mr. BALL. This was in the afternoon, was it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; started at 3 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. At 3 o'clock he came to your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then he came back the second time with the second bag +before 4, did he? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I'm sure he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any about the use of the refrigerator? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said he was going to put something in there, and +I said--I didn't have anything to say, and I hemmed-and-hawed, I said, +"Well, no; I don't have a very big refrigerator." + +Well, he said, "I won't use it after this time." He was very, very +congenial. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go down to the grocery store? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he buy? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He bought some peanut butter and some sardines, and some +bananas and put it all in his room, except the milk, and he ate there, +ate in his room. I didn't like that either. + +Mr. BALL. He was there how many days? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was there 5 days, just 5 days. + +Mr. BALL. He was there--what day of the week was the day that he came? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday and Tuesday he stayed home and went to bed, and +stayed--I didn't pay any attention to him---- + +Mr. BALL. Monday night he stayed home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; after he went to the grocery store. + +Mr. BALL. What about Tuesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Tuesday he went out at 9:30 and come home at 2:30. He was +looking for a job, and called on the phone, wanted different ones, and +I got the book, and papers, and tried to look for him a job, because he +was a nice looking boy, and wanted a job. + +Mr. BALL. Now, he went out at 9-9:30 in the morning and came back at +2:30? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Let's see. 1:30. I have my nap then, and it kind of +interfered, but I didn't say anything. + +Mr. BALL. You say you have a what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I have a nap then. + +Mr. BALL. You take a nap in the afternoon? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I had a stroke, you see. + +Mr. BALL. And it interfered with your nap when he came back? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I didn't say anything then, but then the next +day---- + +Mr. BALL. Let's finish Tuesday. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. That's all. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go out again after he came home at 1:30? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Stayed in his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. All the time, and stayed there that night, too. + +Mr. BALL. All the time? What about Wednesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He left about 9 o'clock, and went off dressed. Had a +white shirt and white tie and white--white trousers, and looked very +nice. Went off Monday about 2 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. This is Wednesday. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday. Then he got back at 1:30. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see, he left at 9? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Come back at 1:30? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did he go out again that day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but then he talked to somebody on the phone, and +talked in a foreign language. + +Mr. BALL. You mean when? Wednesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday, I guess it was Wednesday, but I am sure +it must have been Wednesday. I was in my room, and the telephone is +over there [indicating], and I didn't like that, somebody talking in a +foreign language and, so I told my girl friend, I said, "I don't like +anybody talking in a foreign language." + +Mr. BALL. What time of day did he call on the phone and talk in a +foreign language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He come home at 1:30 and talked about 2 or 2:30, talked +like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; went to bed. + +Mr. BALL. Went to bed that night and stayed there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I didn't fix his room either, that is why I didn't +see his luggage. I didn't go in his room at all because they take care +of their own rooms. + +Mr. BALL. What about Thursday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Thursday, he went out at 10 o'clock or 10:30, and I was +out in the yard, and he come out and I said, "Oh. I thought you had +gone." + +"Oh, no," he said, he didn't go, but he came home a little bit early, +and after I said he got into my nap, he come home at 2 o'clock, or +2:30, you see, and didn't leave until 10. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell him that he interfered with your nap? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What day did you tell him that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I told him that, I guess must have been Thursday. +Thursday and then he---- + +Mr. BALL. You mean Thursday morning? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Well, then Thursday morning is when he left a little later +than usual? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And you told him that he had interfered with your nap before +that day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I think it was--it must have been--no; it was that +day. It was after I had that call. I didn't like that and he never said +a word, and then I interviewed him when he first came in and thought he +was all right, and he never spoke--I had one boy on the back. He never +saw him and he would run to the bathroom and go to the icebox and get +some ice, and didn't like that. Went too much to the icebox, but---- + +Mr. BALL. Well, now---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That was a Thursday. + +Mr. BALL. When he went away on Thursday, then had you told him prior to +that time that when he came in at 1:30, in the afternoon, he interfered +with your nap? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think you might have told him that on Wednesday or +Tuesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't tell him until after I had that call. + +Mr. BALL. When was the call? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday. + +Mr. BALL. And who called you on Wednesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He called somebody, you know. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the day that he called someone and spoke in a +foreign language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. After that, you told him---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like that. + +Mr. BALL. That he interfered with your nap? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. I didn't like it, and the next day he fussed with +somebody on the phone, I don't know whether it was his wife or who it +was. + +Mr. BALL. That was Thursday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 2 o'clock or 2:30 when he come home here and---- + +Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Stayed in all day? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Stayed in all day, and it was Friday he stayed in his +room all day. Didn't eat. Ate what he had in his room. Stayed in his +room all day long. + +Mr. BALL. When did you next see him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Been--then Saturday, he started out and had his bag. + +Mr. BALL. Started out with his luggage? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Saturday morning he started out with his bag and---- + +Mr. BALL. Which bag did he take? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Was it the duffelbag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Like you see the servicemen carrying? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess it was. I didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. BALL. This was Saturday morning about what time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 10 o'clock, or 9:30 and I thought he was going to +move and I--"Oh--" I said, "You are going to move?" + +And he said, "No; I am just going for the weekend." + +Well, I said, "Well, I don't know." But he said, "And I want my room +cleaned and clean sheets put on the bed." + +And I said, "Well, I will after you move because you are going to move." + +He said, "Why?" + +I says, "Because I am not going to rent to you any more." + +Mr. BALL. Not going to what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not going to rent to you any more, He said, "Give me back +my money." Now, $2. + +I said, "Well, I don't have it." + +So, he left Saturday morning and, in the meantime. I think his wife was +going to have a baby---- + +Mr. BALL. How did you know that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I found--I read it in the papers. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, no; he didn't ever tell me. Didn't tell me anything. + +Mr. BALL. You told him you weren't going to rent to him any more on +that Saturday morning about 10 o'clock. At that time did he have his +bag? Was he carrying a bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; going out with it again. Going out to Irving. + +Mr. BALL. How did you know? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, said he was. + +Mr. BALL. He told you he was going to Irving? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; said he was going to Irving. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was going to Irving for any purpose? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just said he was going to Irving. No; he didn't tell +me anything. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you tell him you wouldn't rent to him any more? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because I didn't like him. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like his attitude. He was just kind of like +this, you know, just big shot, you know, and I didn't have anything to +say to him, and--but, I didn't like him. There was just something about +him I didn't like or want him--just wasn't the kind of person I wanted. +Just didn't want him around me. + +Mr. BALL. When he left on Saturday morning do you know by what +transportation he took? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop near your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right in front of the house. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him take the bus. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him wait for the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just saw him go out the door. Didn't pay any +attention. And when he left I said--oh, he was going to come back +and get his things Saturday. He took it out and said, "Well, it is 2 +dollars," and I--"Well, I don't have it, so, he went off." + +Mr. BALL. Well, wait a minute. Did he say he would come back and get +the things Saturday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say a thing. + +Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute. Saturday morning you told him you +wouldn't rent to him again. What did he say about getting his money +back? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said, "Well, give me my money back and I will +move now." + +And I said, "I don't have it." + +Mr. BALL. Then what did he say? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything and went on out the door. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about whether he would come to get +his clothes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; not a thing. + +Mr. BALL. Did he come back Saturday night? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. When did he come back? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday morning. + +Mr. BALL. And from Saturday morning until Monday morning you didn't see +him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. What time Monday morning did he come back? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Between 8 and 9, 9 and 10. I mean. + +Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Have his bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't say a word to him. He--I didn't say a word to +him. + +Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything in his hand? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What did he take with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had that bag. + +Mr. BALL. What bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. The bag, you see, he had two. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I never noticed it. I don't know what kind it was or +anything. + +Mr. BALL. When he left, he had one bag when he left? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. One bag. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether it was the duffelbag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I couldn't say for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what color it was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just navy blue. I don't know which one he carried, or +what they were or what. I didn't pay any attention to it. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know whether both bags were navy blue, or different +colors? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. You know one was navy blue? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. When he left, did he say anything to you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you say anything to him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. I said, "Good luck." You know, I thought to myself, +"That's good riddance," and I looked in his room and it was all right, +and nothing was disturbed. + +Mr. BALL. Had he cleaned it up? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was dirty. + +Mr. BALL. Did he leave anything around the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; somehow I saw a map. I believe he left that map. + +Mr. BALL. What map? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. A map of Dallas where he could get around to get some +places, jobs. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with that map? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Throwed it in the garbage. + +Mr. BALL. Threw it away? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was it a map, kind of a map put out by the service stations? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; one of those kinds. I just threw it away and cleaned +up the room. Just threw it away. + +Mr. BALL. Did the map have any markings on it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You know--do you know what the markings were? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever see him again? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought. "Well, he is gone," and forgot it. + +Mr. BALL. But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading +from some notes before you. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I forget what I have to say. + +Mr. BALL. When did you make those notes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. What day did I make them? + +Miss DOUTHIT. When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to +Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down +on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you +put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you +won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she +started making notes. + +Mr. BALL. You have made the notes in the last week? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes during the week he was there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Mr. BALL. Your address, make sure that we have this. The address where +you were living on the 7th of October was 621 Marsalis--North Marsalis, +Dallas, Tex.? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. And you are still living there, aren't you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the foreign language that you heard Oswald using over the +telephone on this Wednesday afternoon, do you know what the language +was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with the Spanish language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I am not. Not familiar with any of them. + +Mr. BALL. All you know it was not English? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. But, you can't tell what language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Can you make a guess? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I have no idea. I do, because the girl is Spanish, +but I don't know whether he called her or not. + +Mr. BALL. What girl is Spanish? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I mean--his wife was Russian. + +Mr. BALL. Russian. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when did you see Oswald again? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I went down to the parade. Oh, when was the parade? +The 22d of--the next--22d of February--when was the parade? + +Mr. BALL. The 22d of November the President came to Dallas. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I first got off at Neiman's and I--the parade didn't +come on, and I kept walking on up, and walked in front of Titche's +over on that side there, and I saw the parade there. He passed--I saw +the President, oh, I was happy I got to see him. And--so then I got on +across and went over to the Athletic Club, and caught the bus. + +Mr. BALL. What bus did you catch? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the +Romana. + +Mr. BALL. Both go by your house, do they? What was the last one? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. The Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. What was the second name? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Romana. + +Mr. BALL. And both go west on Elm? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right--so, I got on the bus, and while it was awfully +crowded there---- + +Mr. BALL. You mean crowded on the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; outside. + +Mr. BALL. Were there many people on the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. How many people on the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about 10. + +Mr. BALL. And what was the location on Elm where you boarded this bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the Athletic Club. + +Mr. BALL. What cross street is that, do you remember? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. St. Paul. + +Mr. BALL. St. Paul? You got on at St. Paul? St. Paul and Elm? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. And the bus was going in what direction? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. West. + +Mr. BALL. All right, now, tell me what happened? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy--I figured it +out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a +maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone. + +Mr. BALL. You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. It was unraveled? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't +look at him. I didn't want to know I even seen him, and I just looked +off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been +shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The +motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I +can get off. + +Mr. BALL. You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, +one seat or two seats behind him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the +seat across the way. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat +you took? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I always did. + +Mr. BALL. Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. First seat on the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Side seat. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were +facing the motorman? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but I saw that it was him. + +Mr. BALL. How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Just a matter of a foot or two? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Where did he sit? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He sat about halfway back down. + +Mr. BALL. On what side? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the same side I was on. + +Mr. BALL. Same side? Did you look at him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he look at you as he went by? Did he look at you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I didn't look at him. That is--I was +just--he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a hat on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what color shirt did he have on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had a brown shirt. + +Mr. BALL. And unraveled? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the +elbow? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is. + +Mr. BALL. And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it +buttoned? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; all the buttons torn off. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have on underneath that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Notice the color of his pants? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. BALL. Around where? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the seam. + +Mr. BALL. At the waist? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the waist, uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Was the shirt tucked beneath the belt in his pants, or +outside the belt? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it in. + +Mr. BALL. Had it tucked in? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was tucked in. + +Mr. BALL. So, that the belt of the pants was outside the shirt? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you say the motorman said something? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Motorman said, "Well, the President has been shot," and +I say--so, and the woman over--we all got to talking about four of us +sitting around talking, and Oswald was sitting back there, and one of +them said, "Hope they don't shoot us," and I said, "I don't believe +that--it is--I don't believe it. Somebody just said that." + +And it was too crowded, you see, and Oswald had got off. + +Mr. BALL. How far had he been on the bus before he got off? Until the +time he got on until the time he got off? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. About three or four blocks. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to the motorman when he got off? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. They say he did, but I don't remember him saying anything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the motorman give him a transfer? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention but I believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean he--you believe he did? Did you +remember seeing him get on or are you telling me something you read in +the newspapers? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention at that time as to whether he did, +or did not get a transfer? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did you look at him as he got off the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I sure didn't. I didn't want to know him. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you think you got enough of a glimpse of him to be able +to recognize him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. You think you might be mistaken? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't look very carefully, did you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just glanced at him, and then looked the other way +and I hoped he didn't see me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, are there two exits from the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. The middle of the bus, and front of the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. Which exit did he leave? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Front. + +Mrs. BALL. By the motorman? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, by the motorman. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody else get off at that time when he got off? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not then, but there was a lady sitting right across, +she wanted to go to the train station. + +Mr. BALL. To the what station? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Train station, and she was worried about trying to get +off, you know, trying to get there, and then we were hearing her, +and I said, "Well, why don't you walk over there. It's just a little +ways." Because the crowd was so bad we still didn't know the President +had been killed, and finally she got off, but I think it was--it was +before--I mean after Oswald did. + +Mr. BALL. Did she ask for a transfer? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught the +bus before she got to the train station. + +Mr. BALL. How do you know that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw her. + +Mr. BALL. You saw her catch another bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. She got on when we did. She rode a block. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody get off when the lady got off? Anybody that was +going to the train station? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Was there traffic? Was the traffic heavy? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off +that around where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first +car that come around there, and then all of us were talking about the +man, and we were looking up to see where he was shot and looking--and +then they had one man and taking him, already got him in jail, and we +got--"Well, I am glad they found him." + +Mr. BALL. You were looking up at where? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. At where the boy was shot. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the Texas Book Depository? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. School Book Depository? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, because we were right four blocks from there, you +see. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the location of the bus with reference to a +cross street on Elm where Oswald got off? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I can't, because they have changed that street, so, +they have torn down things and I don't go to town very much now and so +I don't---- + +Mr. BALL. Was it in the middle of the block, or at a regular bus stop? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they said it was. + +Mr. BALL. I want to know what you remember. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether it was a regular bus stop or not? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald get on at a regular bus stop? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any particular attention to him. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, +the motorman opened the front door? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You are not able to say whether Oswald got on at a regular +bus stop, or at a point between blocks? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. And you are not able to tell us whether he got off at regular +bus stops, or between? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got +off? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street. + +Mr. BALL. How far? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. Close to Lamar? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, close. + +Mr. BALL. How close? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say. + +Mr. BALL. Within a half block, or block? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; within a block. + +Mr. BALL. About a block from Lamar, you think? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd +seen Oswald? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. When I got home, first thing I did I went next door +and told them the President had been shot, and so she turned on the +radio and I went in and called my son and said the President had +been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed." Well, I turned on +the radio--television--and we heard ambulances and going around and +them, and so, I didn't pay any attention. I wanted to hear about the +President and there was a little boy came in that room in the back and +he turned it on, and we listened and hear about Mr. Tippen [sic] being +shot, and it didn't dawn on me, and I said--told his name as Oswald. +I don't--didn't mean anything to me, so, I wanted to hear about the +President, only one I was interested in, so, he went on back to work +and they kept talking about this boy Oswald and had on a brown shirt, +and all of a sudden, well, I declare, I believe that this was this boy, +and his name was Oswald--that is--give me his right name, you know, and +so, about an hour my son came home, and I told him, and he immediately +called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, +and so, I went down the next night. He took me down, and I made a +statement to them, what kind of--Secret Service man or something down +there. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the police station. + +Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. Now, did you ever see Oswald in a lineup? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ever show you pictures? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; showed me pictures of him. + +Mr. BALL. But didn't show you Oswald? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. Never did see Oswald after he was arrested? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not after he got off the bus; no. + +Mr. BALL. But, you looked at the pictures of Oswald? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Showed you the pictures of Oswald? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. The man down at the police station, he had a picture of +him with a gun, and said, "Do you recognize him?" + +And I said, "Yes; it is Oswald." That is the one that I remember him. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man who showed you the picture of +the man with the gun? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am so bad about names. + +Mr. BALL. Was there one man or more than one man? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about a dozen. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, a dozen men? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. There sure was a lot of them. Two Secret Service men, and +two to do this, and oh, I had interviewed about 9 or 10 or 12, plenty +of them. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. + +Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. + +Mr. BALL. This is a shirt---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "that is it?" + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because they brought it out to the house and showed it. + +Mr. BALL. I know. What do you mean by "this is it?" + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I can recognize it. + +Mr. BALL. Recognize it as what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir; see there? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. You tell me what do you see here? What permits you to +recognize it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I recognize--first thing I notice the elbow is out and +then I saw--when the man brought it out and let me see it? + +Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about--I am showing you this shirt now, and +you said, "That is it." You mean--What do you mean by "that is it"? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is the one he had out there that day? + +Mr. BALL. Who had it out there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Some Secret Service man. + +Mr. BALL. He brought it out. Now, I am--you have seen this shirt then +before? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen the shirt before that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. Have you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it on, though. + +Mr. BALL. Who had it on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Oswald had it on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald had it on. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe +that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What +is there about it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see the front of it. Yes. See all this +[indicating]? I remember that. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what you see there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I saw the--no; not so much that. It was done after--that +is the part I recognize more than anything. + +Mr. BALL. You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What about the color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I--What do you mean? + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he had it on? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown. + +Mr. BALL. You remember the shirt being brown. + +Was it this color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it was that color. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, when you remember that you have seen +something before---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. In order to convince me that you did see it before you've got +to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. Now, you +try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is +the shirt that Oswald had on when you saw him on the bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would say it was. That hole---- + +Mr. BALL. Mostly the hole in the right sleeve? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What about the color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember the color. + +Mr. BALL. That is a similar color, isn't it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; same color. + +Mr. BALL. Same color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. You think that is the shirt? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it is the shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was +around your house? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the +bus? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. BALL. I have two exhibits here. One Commission Exhibit 157. Exhibit +157, and Commission 156, both pants. Have you ever seen either one of +those before? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, is that long pants? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; this is 157. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is not the ones he had on. + +Mr. BALL. That is not? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was ragged up at the top. + +Mr. BALL. This other pair of pants, 156, does that look like any of the +pants he had on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That must have been it, but seemed like it was ragged up +at the top. + +Mr. BALL. But, you think 156 may have been the pair of pants he had on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You think 157--don't pay any attention to the fact that it is +cut up--does 157 look anything like the pants he had on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't---- + +Mr. BALL. You don't think so? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have no more questions to ask you now, Mrs. Bledsoe, but +Mr. Jenner will ask you some questions. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get up here close so you will hear me all right. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to go back to the day that he came to your +home on the 7th of October? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You were out in your backyard? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he come back there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a bell on your house? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He knocked at the door. + +Mr. JENNER. He knocked at the door and you heard him knock at the door? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I went around the front. + +Mr. JENNER. And your home is all at one level? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So, you walked through your house? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I went through the yard and come around from the back +to the front yard. + +Mr. JENNER. And you saw a young man at the door? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. How was that young man dressed on that occasion? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember what he had on. Didn't pay any +attention. He was clean and that's all you see, but I didn't know what +color the pants were and what kind of shirt it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did he have a suit on or sportscoat, or just his +shirt? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just the shirt. It was hot weather. October. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--did he have a tie on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The shirt, that was open at the front? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, it wasn't those short shirts. I don't know what kind +it was. I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was a Monday morning. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. Monday afternoon. Did he have a hat on? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he--did he have any luggage? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; had one bag, I don't know whether it was a duffel or +what, but then he went on and got another one. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, if you will permit me to stay with what he had when +you first saw him---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You call on your recollection and tell me all you can tell +me about the bag he had at that time, its size, its shape. In another +connection, Mrs. Bledsoe, it is prior events that are important to us. +If we can possibly find out or get as accurate a description as you can +give us. Sit there relaxed and tell us what you remember about this +bag, what size it was; what shape it was; whether it was hard; whether +it was soft, what color it was. + +Was it zippered? How was it fastened? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know whether it was zippered or not. But seems to +me like it was, though. + +Mr. JENNER. Just start from the beginning and tell us what you remember +about the bag that he had when you first saw him at the door. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was just a blue--like a canvas bag. + +Mr. JENNER. Canvas? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, I don't know whether it was zippered or not. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall a zippered sort of bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't even look. It was about that long, I guess +[indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. You are indicating about 26 inches? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. About that long. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Then, he had some things on his back. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you mind if we stuck with the bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it was 26 inches long and you think it was canvas, +and you think it was blue in color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was its shape? Was it a round sort of soft kind of bag +or was it--did it have firm, stiff sides? Was it rectangular? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say. Couldn't say. Didn't pay any +attention to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection does serve you that it was not what we +would call a suitcase? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; looked like an inexpensive bag of some kind. + +Mr. JENNER. And your memory doesn't serve you that there was any sort +of zipper thing, and you do seem to have a reasonably firm recollection +that the color of it was blue? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have a handle on it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When he picked it up---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is---- + +Mr. JENNER. I was trying to get an idea, and well--I have a coat here, +and using it for purposes of illustration, when he picked up the bag by +the handles did the bag sag, or was it firm? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention. Didn't pay a bit of attention. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice from your testimony that he also had, on this +occasion, at this time, in addition to the canvas bag, blue in color, +he had some things over his arm, or over his shoulder? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On a coathanger. + +Mr. JENNER. He had some articles of clothing? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On coathangers. + +Mr. JENNER. On coathangers? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And were those draped back over the shoulder or arm, or was +he holding them by the hooks or hooks on the hangers? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think he had them on coathangers, just--I guess--I +don't know--he was standing there. I don't have no idea. + +Mr. JENNER. Just how he was carrying them, you are uncertain, but you +are certain that he had articles of clothing on hangers? + +Mr. BLEDSOE. On coathangers. + +Mr. JENNER. Were--would they be wooden coathangers or the metal? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Metal ones. + +Mr. JENNER. The type you get when you send clothes to the cleaners and +they come back on these wire, metal hangers, what--was that the type? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I imagine. I couldn't tell. Now, I--no; I didn't +pay any attention to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection serves you now that there were hangers, +but you cannot recall whether they were the wire type or whether they +were wooden? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he left, he just carried them off. I never did look +at his clothes at all. + +Mr. JENNER. You impress me as a lady that wouldn't be fussing around? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't care enough about it. All I wanted him to do was +rent the room. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him +for $7 for that week? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And he paid you then and there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh + +Mr. JENNER. In cash? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and I gave him a receipt on this book. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he then left your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about why he was leaving? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He went to the grocery store. No, no; first he went to +get his other bag. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say then? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you come to know that he went to get another bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He didn't say--he just went off. + +Mr. JENNER. He just turned around without any leave taking? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; because he was not a man to talk, you know, what +I got out of him, I had to get it out of him, because it was hard +to--because I wanted to see what kind of a person he was, and it was +hard to get, you know, to judge him in such a short time. + +Mr. JENNER. When you completed the transaction about his renting the +room and you got your $7, he paid it to you, so it was agreed he had +the room for a week, did he go in and look at the room before he paid +you the $7? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was in the room, and I was at the door, and he looked +at it and I said, $7, so, he took it and give me the money all in ones, +$7. + +Mr. JENNER. Seven $1 bills? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Seven $1 bills, and then he come over to my room and +I--he wrote it down, and it is a good thing I had him write it, because +I am kind of nervous, and I don't write so well, see, and he put it +down on that, and that--and so, that is--this is in September, but +anyway---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. October---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her this question about that bag, if it was +puffed out, or approximately what shape it was, also, as to any further +conversation that she had as to his background, how much she knows. If +you are interested. You might not be. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Robert Davis of the attorney general's office of Texas +has come in, and I am not seeking to press you, but we have some +problems of the highest degree of exactitude that we can obtain. And at +the risk of boring you, I would like to go back to that bag again. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, that; I didn't pay much attention to it. + +Mr. JENNER. When you first saw him at the door at your front of your +home, he had the bag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it resting on the porch, or was he standing before the +door with bag in hand when you first saw him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I come around the house, you see, and I don't know. I +didn't pay--I don't know, couldn't tell you whether he was carrying it +or what, but he did have these things on his shoulder, on his hangers. +It--maybe had it sitting down, I don't know. I guess he did. I didn't +pay any attention to it. + +Mr. JENNER. And at that point you were asking why he was there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he asked me if I had a room for rent. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I said, "Yes," and I thought, "Well, are you +married?" And he said, "Yes," and---- + +Mr. JENNER. You asked? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You inquired of him as to his history? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you inquire of him, and what did he say? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wanted to find out something about him, and he +said, "Well, I just want the room for a week or two, because I am going +to get a job and then I will have my wife here." + +Mr. JENNER. He told you at that time and informed you that he was +unemployed? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he would be seeking work? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he said that he was going to bring his wife? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And--when and if he obtained employment? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And so, that give me a lead, something to talk about, and +I said, "Well, what kind of work do you do? + +"Oh, I do electronics," he said, and I said, "Well, there is some good +jobs because you are young, and you can get a good job a young man like +you." + +And then went on. Then something about him being in the Marines, and I +said, "Well, that is wonderful. My son was in the Navy." + +And talking about him, you know, just getting to know him, and--but, +"here is a picture of my wife, and picture of the girl, and the baby." + +And I said, "Oh, she has got a baby, hasn't she?" + +And he said, "Yes." + +And everything he said, I had to pull it out of him to talk about +something for him to say what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. But, he volunteered the picture of his wife and child? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did that. Showed me that picture. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that an ordinary snapshot picture? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was in his billfold. + +Mr. JENNER. Took it out of his billfold? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir; it was in the billfold. Just showed it in the +billfold. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a billfold here. Was it this type? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was something else. Don't seem like it was like +that. Seemed like it opened this other way, I---- + +Mr. JENNER. This? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I think it was like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he carry it in his trouser pocket, coat pocket? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention where he had it. + +Mr. JENNER. What other inquiries did you make of him to become better +acquainted and find out about him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He said he had been in the Marines and I thought that was +a pretty good recommendation, and I said, "Well, you won't have any +trouble at all getting any job." + +And so, the next morning I was helping him looking for a job. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, pardon me, if you will just stick to while you're at +the door now. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Just one interruption, but find out if this conversation +took place at the door, or after he got in the room. + +They are in this room, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. You went inside the house almost immediately? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. When he first made an inquiry? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you took him to show him the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your inquiries were--with respect to his history were +in the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And he showed you the picture while you were in the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it, am I correct, when you went into the room he +had that bag, and he had the articles of clothing? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And had them with him, didn't leave them on the porch? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he do with the bag when he entered the room? Did +he put it down on the floor? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't pay any attention? What did he do with the articles +of clothing on the hangers? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wasn't paying any attention to it. I guess he hung them +up. Just a young boy, and I was trying to see if he was clean, and if +he was very intelligent, and he was going to go to work, so, I didn't +have too much to work on. Told me he had a nice wife, so, I didn't have +anything to say. + +Mr. JENNER. When your son was in the Navy, did he have a duffelbag? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Now, it was so long ago--it was--I don't know whether +he did. I don't think he did. He didn't. He was an instructor at TI. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he stationed here in Dallas? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, TI. Treasure Island. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, Treasure Island. How long did this discussion with him +in the room take? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I guess 10 minutes because those--he was--you know, +old people, they want to get you out of the way. They don't want to +listen to you, but I wanted to find out, so, I think I maybe asked him +too many questions, but I wanted him to say something to me and he said +something about his--I said, "Do you have a family here," and he said, +"Yes, my family lives here." + +Well, he wouldn't say his mother or anything, and I didn't ask him +everything. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything in addition to the hangers with +respect to these clothes? Were the articles of clothing enclosed in any +kind of a bag or paper, plastic, or otherwise? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, just on hangers. + +Mr. JENNER. Just on hangers. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. But I didn't pay any attention to what kind of--I think +maybe a coat. I don't know what it was, a sweater or something. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see how many articles of clothing were there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about four. + +Mr. JENNER. And none of them was enclosed in any kind of a container, +plastic or otherwise? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he pleasant during all of the conversation you had with +him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was the first day. Next day didn't talk any more. I +didn't talk to him. + +Mr. JENNER. As soon as he--recalling to mind that he paid you the $7. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any further conversation take place after he paid you +the $7? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is when he asked where the grocery store was. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. What else? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he didn't say anything about going to get the rest +of his things. I think that he must have been--said that after he came +back with the other bag. + +Mr. JENNER. Must have said what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Where was the grocery store, after he come back and got +the other---- + +Mr. JENNER. So, your recollection presently serves you that he paid you +the $7 and no further conversation took place? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He turned and left the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I--he was--I was in the room, I just walked out. + +Mr. JENNER. You walked out after the transaction, financially, was +complete? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I went and he paid--he had already paid me but I wanted +him to put his name on here. + +Mr. JENNER. On your register? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. On this [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. He did that---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; in the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection was that he wrote the words "Lee Oswald"? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Then did he leave your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Without saying anything to you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was gone--did he return? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; within about 40 minutes, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was gone about 40 minutes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And got the rest of his things. + +Mr. JENNER. When he returned did you see him before he entered your +home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having seen him before he +entered his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware of the fact he had returned? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I must have heard him, or he might have come in and +put his milk in the icebox. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't get the milk, as far as I recall, until +you'd advised him where the grocery store was. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. That was after he had returned from the---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. From the---- + +Mr. JENNER. After this 40-minute interval? I am just sticking for the +moment to the time that he returned to your home after 40 minutes. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. He had put his name in your register and in your presence, +in the living room, and turned and left your home and returned in 40 +minutes; now, is that right? It's that point that I am concentrating +on. When did you become aware that he had returned on that occasion and +how? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know--I guess he come and put the things in +the icebox. I don't even remember where I was. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. So, that you didn't see him return to your home? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't see him come in. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't see him come in? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know what he had with him at that point? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability where was he in your home when +you became aware of his presence on his return after that 40 minutes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I must have been in the kitchen and he came back there +and put the milk in, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have milk with him after he returned that 40 minutes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not the 40 minutes. That was the bag. + +Mr. JENNER. See, this is what I'm trying to concentrate on for +the moment, before you get the milk. And I am trying to take it +sequentially. He paid the $7 and signed the register in your living +room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And without any further words to you he turned and left +your home, is that accurate? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that's about right. + +Mr. JENNER. He returned in 40 minutes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right to that point, when did you become +aware of the fact that he was then back in your home, that is, at that +point? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That he--he hadn't gotten the milk yet? + +Mr. JENNER. No; this is when he first returned. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know. I was just around the house. I didn't +pay any attention to him. + +Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, then, when he made that first trip back, you +didn't see him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him on that occasion? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he had the bag, didn't he? + +Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with what you knew at that instant of time. +What you found out afterwards, I'll go into that in a moment. + +You didn't see him return? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him when he returned? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. At that instance, because you didn't see him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But, you were aware; now, you became aware of the fact that +he did return? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with him at that point? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware and I gather from your earlier +testimony you became aware that he had brought that into your home, or +there was in your home some additional luggage. When you first saw him +he had this soft canvas bag, or canvas bag, whether it was soft or not +that is uncertain. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you became aware later that day that there was +another piece of luggage, and, am I correct about that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, I think he said he was going to get some more. He +was going to get some more and he had some boots, too, in his hand. +I--maybe he brought those the last time. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of boots? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they looked like they were about up to here +[indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the knee? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about there [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh,---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. There. + +Mr. JENNER. Just a little above the ankle? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. About 3 inches above the ankle? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know what they used them for. + +Mrs. JENNER. Were they cowboy boots. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't cowboy boots. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they canvas, leather, or rubber? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just leather. + +Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Heavy-soled. + +Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled. Rubber soles? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; leather. + +Mr. JENNER. Any hobnails in them? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Hard heel or flat heel? I mean, flat sole and heel? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, they had a heel, too. I remember them having that. He +must have brought those in when he brought those the last time. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not recall his having the boots at the time you +first--at the first time you talked to him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't believe he did. + +Mr. JENNER. But, you became aware of the boots afterward? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. At, or about, or after the time he returned from this +40-minute absence? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time you noticed the boots, did you also +notice that he had additional items of luggage? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he went to get the luggage. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know whether he did or not. I know he--I +don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a thought in mind when he left after he paid +you the $7 and signed your register that he was going somewhere to +obtain additional articles of clothing? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought that. + +Mr. JENNER. You thought that? He didn't say anything to you about that, +however? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say anything. Didn't talk much. + +Mr. JENNER. It is clear in your mind that he just turned around after +you finished the transaction and left and returned in 40 minutes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I thought he said he had to get some groceries, but maybe +that was after he got the luggage, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. You had become aware that afternoon that he had additional +articles of luggage? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Come in about 3, about 4 he got the rest of the luggage. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this additional article of luggage, would you describe +it, as compared with---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any---- + +Mr. JENNER. Please. As compared with this canvas bag, blue in color, +that you just told me about? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay no attention to it at all. It was just a +piece of luggage. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, was it a---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't---- + +Mr. JENNER. What I would call a suitcase or what you might call a +suitcase? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't a regular suitcase, but just something +inexpensive, just something the boys have, and I didn't pay any +attention to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it hard-sided? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was a--you know, it was weak, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. It was weak. Was it strong enough so that it had a +rectangular shape? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You know what I mean by suitcase? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is reasonably firm and hard, and has a handle on it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't that way. One of those inexpensive kind of +things, but I don't know whether it was canvas or what. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it firmer in shape than the canvas bag you have +described to me that he had earlier? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Well, I think it was chuck full. + +Mr. JENNER. You know it was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was, I remember. I don't---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. One of them was blue, and I don't know which one or +anything about it. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her something. + +Mary, would it help you to remember this if you would just begin, you +were out in the yard, and you went around and interviewed this man +there, did you stand in the yard, or go in your room and talk? Did he +put up his things then before he came across the hall to talk to you? +When did he ask you about groceries? After he signed your register +did he go back in his room and hang his clothes up, or what happened? +Would it help if you just sit here idly without anybody asking you +questions and see? Did you go back out in the yard after he paid you +the money, and while he was gone--if you can, just retrace your steps +without anybody interrupting you. Could you begin and go again out in +the yard, and went around and saw this man here, and he told you he +wanted to rent a room, whether you stood on the porch and talked to +him, or whether he brought his things and you went on and showed him +the room? How far is the room from where your front door was? If you go +down a hall, how far? Did you go over there and talk to him and make +arrangements about the rent of the room? Did he hang up his clothes +while he was in the room? + +Did he--if you can just trace your steps and give it to him. I ask you +to do that, and I know it is confusing, but that's all he wants. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I am getting tired. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All he wants is the truth, and I thought maybe you might, +for the sake of the record, you know---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would have--we have said most everything. + +Miss DOUTHIT. I know it, but just do it one more time. The man was +standing at your front door---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am getting tired, because I have had a stroke, you see. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I stayed in. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did he leave your house twice? Now, you said he went and +got a bag and brought it back? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did, brought back the bag. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Then he went back again? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Miss DOUTHIT. How long was he--all I want to know is just, if you can +just tell that in your own words without any questions. Could you just +do that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd rather they asked, because---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. I know, but it is hard for them to ask these particular +questions, because they don't know exactly what happened. All they want +to do is to say that you were in the room with him, and put this little +bag down and hung up his clothes, and came across the hall and signed +the register, see. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all. I don't know whether he put his clothes +and what in the other room. I don't know whether he put his bag---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Was there a closet in there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Well, were you with him when he put the clothes in the +closet, or did you go on across the hall and leave him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; I didn't pay any attention to him. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence--Mary, pardon me, I am +not--this is not for the record. + +Mr. JENNER. No; that's fine, leave it on the record. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right. When the man was on your front porch. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. He had a blue bag in there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Miss DOUTHIT. And you don't know whether it was round or bulging, you +just don't know? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know whether it had a long strap or a little +handle, do you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it had a handle. + +Miss DOUTHIT. But, it wasn't one you sling over your shoulder? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, can you go ahead? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Clothes were sort of hanging over here [indicating]. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh. Not covered or anything? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You couldn't tell anybody about what color the clothes +were, could you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you stand in the yard and talk to the young man? Or +immediately go into the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I immediately--I was talking to him, but I had to +go in immediately, because he wanted to see the room. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right. How far is it, Mrs. Bledsoe, from where you +met this man at the front door until you showed him the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is about 25 foot, and all that time I had to +size him up, you see. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You were talking to him as you went down the hall? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; getting---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Is that where you learned that he was married, as you +were walking down the hall? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he told me he was married before we went in the house. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, then, when you got to the room, did you both +walk inside the room, or stand in the door and talk? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I stood in the door, and he went in and looked at it and +took it. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did he keep his clothes? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention. + +Miss DOUTHIT. When he was talking to you, you don't know what he did, +just stood and talked to you? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence before he came into your room +and signed the register? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, that, Melody---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Were you with him? And took him into the room, and---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Says, "I'll take the room." + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave him in the room and you go on across to +your room? How far is your room from where you rented his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right next to it. No; he came on in, he came on back +behind me. + +Miss DOUTHIT. He never left your presence from the time you went in +this room until he came over here? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, did he put his things in your room--or bring +them with him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he left them in the room. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, you don't know where he put them? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to him. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Is there a closet in that room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You don't remember whether he hung his clothes in the +closet? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. But, he left and came over where you were and signed your +register, and then did he go back into his room or go down the hall and +leave the house? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, went back in his room. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right. You don't know how long he stayed in his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Now, before he left your room, did he tell you anything +about going and getting additional luggage, or did you know when he +was leaving the room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I didn't know. He said he was going to get some +groceries but it might have been that he said that he was going, I +don't know. I don't know. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Was it when he signed the register that he asked you +about the grocery store, or later? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Later. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right. Then you were in your room when he went back +in his room. Did you see him leave his room and go out of the house? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Then where did you go? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lord have mercy. I don't know. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't think I went into the yard. I was fooling +around the house. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how far from your room is your kitchen? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord. It is a long ways. It is clear across the +living room and dining room and the kitchen is right there [indicating]. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, but your room is right next to the room you +rented to this man? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Miss DOUTHIT. When did you have knowledge that he was back in his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, when--I guess when he brought these--brought the +milk in. + +Miss DOUTHIT. How could he go to the grocery store and get milk unless +he had already asked you where the grocery store was? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, he had already. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Okay, then, it was on his return from getting the bag +that he asked you about the grocery store, is that right? Or do you +remember? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes; it wasn't anything said about this when he +rented--about eating. Just--he just rented the room, and not to eat in +there. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Now when you had some kind of knowledge, as you just +said, could you hear him back in his room, or could you see him back in +his room after he left the first time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I heard him. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did he come in and talk to you before he left your house +the second time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he never did talk to me at all. He didn't talk. + +Miss DOUTHIT. The only conversation you had with this Mrs.--with this +Mr. Oswald was when he came and rented the room and signed the register? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And what I got out of him. That's all I could get. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Now; did you get any information out of him after he +signed the register? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, the next day. + +Miss DOUTHIT. I am talking about this one day. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't get much. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Then all of your conversation that you had this Monday +that he rented that room took place at one time, is that correct? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's correct. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Now, he came back, and for some reason you knew he was in +there. When did he leave your house the second time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he went to get the groceries. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Well, when? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Was he--when he went to leave, did he come in and say, +"I'm going to get some groceries." Did he? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You evidently told him about the grocery store the first +time when he signed the register and your conversation with him-- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't either. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Well, you just said you had one conversation with him, +and you had no other conversation with him. Now, just remember these +facts that you had no conversation with him after he paid you the money +and signed the register. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wouldn't say, because I don't know what he did. I +don't remember. + +Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how long after--when he brought his bag back +and put it in this room, how long did he stay in that room until he +left to go to the grocery store, if that is where he went? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was that the first when he went and got the other bag? + +Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, 20 or 30 minutes. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did he go and use the telephone, or just stay in his room +all that time? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, didn't use the phone until--I think he used it after. + +Miss DOUTHIT. Did he use your telephone on Monday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. After the, yes; after he got everything settled, I think +he did. Two or three times every day. Called his wife, supposed to be. + +Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know who he called? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know who he called. + +Miss DOUTHIT. But, you don't know anything at all about when you gave +him this information about the grocery store? We are just trying to get +the order here in which this happened, Mrs. Bledsoe, is all, if you can +just remember? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord. + +Miss DOUTHIT. That is the reason I asked you if you could, to write +these things down. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. I am sorry, but I thought in--I might help you. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make a telephone call after he became settled? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 8th of October? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wouldn't say for sure, but I guess he did, because he +called his wife, supposedly--supposed to have been all the time, but in +the morning he called some people about jobs. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because he talked on the phone and talked gruff, talked +gruff to those on the phone, and talked about a job. I heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, one of the occasions when the gentleman interviewed +you--were Secret Service and FBI people--there is a notation that you +recalled that on Monday afternoon that he did call his wife? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, does that refresh your recollection, that he did call +her the same day that he moved in here on---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. And, were you aware of the fact that he was using the +telephone? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I told him he could use the phone to get him a job +and call his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you aware of any occasion on Monday when you had +your own mental conception that he was actually talking with his wife? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it didn't--I wasn't interested at all. He--I +wasn't--I didn't think about it at all. When I got interested is when +he called, talking in that foreign language. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the first time you heard him talking in the foreign +language was when? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I can guess, it was a Wednesday. + +Mr. JENNER. Wednesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday afternoon, but he came on---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, so you assume that the other calls he made on Monday, +since he did not, I take it, did not speak in a foreign language, or +you didn't hear him speak in a foreign language on Monday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear him do so on Tuesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. First time you heard him to do that was Wednesday? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Miss DOUTHIT. Ask her if she ever heard him talk to anybody on the +telephone in English. That is what---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I have assumed that you did hear him talk with people +on the telephone using the English language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, was about jobs, about getting a job. He called +people to get jobs, and then he would become almost mad, and sometimes +he was mad. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know, but he was mad. + +Mr. JENNER. About what? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. About what they were talking about. He would get in a bad +humor, and then the day he made that call, he---- + +Mr. JENNER. Which call? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. That call. + +Mr. JENNER. Wednesday? The call in which he spoke in a foreign language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was real mad. + +Mr. JENNER. He was angry with the person to whom he was speaking over +the telephone? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. But, you couldn't understand what he was saying? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know whether he was angry with the person, or +angry with someone else and explaining it to the person on the phone +about something in anger? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I know he talked in a--he talked in a, I guess it was a +foreign language, and I don't know what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Just sounded irritated? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him in possession, +either in his room, or carrying a long object wrapped in paper or a +blanket or---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or something as long as 45 inches long? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight inches wide? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't have anything like that with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything that you thought could be curtain rods or---- + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Or shades that are on the spring, did he ever have any +package that looked as though that sort of thing might be contained in +it? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing of that nature in his room? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you describe the room? Was it tastefully +decorated or--shades, curtains? There was no need for him to have +any--bring anything in to decorate that room, was there? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do so? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Brought nothing in of that nature? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was no discussion with you on that subject? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You do have a distinct recollection, do you, that he was +there on Friday, that would be the 11th, I think? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Friday. That is the day that he stayed in his room all +day. + +Mr. JENNER. Stayed in his room all day long? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just went to the bathroom and came back. + +Mr. JENNER. That was Friday, October 11? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 12th, that would be Saturday the 12th of October, +did he receive any phone calls? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me about that? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I think he called somebody--somebody called him, +and I judged it was his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone, or did he? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son answered. + +Mr. JENNER. Your son answered the phone? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. And he called him to the phone, and seemed like that she +was going to have a child and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you gather this from what you heard him say? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. From what they said. + +Mr. JENNER. From his end of the conversation? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. From him, and then I thought he was going to move, and +you see, I was tickled to death, so, then said, "Well, I will meet +her," or, said that he would meet her, said he would go to the hospital +and meet her, see, but he didn't never get to it, I judged that is what +he said. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard enough of the conversation that you have the +recollection that he said something about his wife possibly having to +go to the hospital? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. For the delivery of her child? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time you had any knowledge that his wife +was with child? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about that to him? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't mention it. I never did mention about that +man talking to him either, because it wasn't any of my business. + +Mr. JENNER. Which man? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. This man who called and talked to him in the foreign +language. I never did see him. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you know it was a man? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I just judged that it was. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the conversation? He was talking in a +foreign language? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You assumed from that that whoever was on the other line +was likewise talking in a foreign language, and you assumed a man, +though you didn't know? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know, so, I didn't say that, because I don't +know, but I never did say anything about it. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe that's about all I have. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. What time is it? I'm tired. + +Mr. BALL. It is 5 minutes until 11. + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he is going to ask something, too, and I will be +up here at 12. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, this deposition will be written up by the +reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change +it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we +will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is. + +Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the +signature? + +Miss DOUTHIT. I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her +to sign it. + +Mr. BALL. Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive +the signature? + +Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Fine. You will know that you won't be bothered any more then. + +Thank you very much, Mrs. Bledsoe. + +Mr. JENNER. We do want you to know that we appreciate your coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. WHALEY + + +The testimony of William W. Whaley was taken at 1:50 p.m., on April 8, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, please. + +Mr. WHALEY. William W. Whaley. + +Mr. BELIN. You live in Dallas, Mr. Whaley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You previously testified before the Commission in +Washington, is that correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now before you came to Washington, did you and I ever meet? + +Mr. WHALEY. Your face is familiar, sir. I still can't tell you whether +I knew you here, or in Washington, or where? + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. + +Mr. WHALEY. You refresh my memory. + +Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to +Washington, approximately? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't +remember the exact date. + +Mr. BELIN. You testified before the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now Mr. Ball and I were with you earlier today over the noon +hour, is that correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Ball and I saw you in Washington, is that correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. Now I don't know if that is correct or not, but your face +is very familiar. + +Mr. BELIN. You think you have seen me before? + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. It might have been in Washington when you were there? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it could have been. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, today at noon there were six people including +yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a +passenger on November 22, is that correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. One of them is sitting here in this room, Dr. Goldberg, over +there. Do you see him? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you and I got in the car, and then Secret Service Agent +John Joe Hewlett. We drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then there was Mr. Joe Ball, Joseph A. Ball, and then a Mr. +Davis, this tall light-haired person? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Davis is from the attorney general's office in Texas. + +Now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the Greyhound Bus +Depot here in Dallas? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you point out the place where you said you picked up +this passenger? + +Mr. WHALEY. I did, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. We had a stopwatch, didn't we? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you directed us to take a certain route, is that +correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the route from the Greyhound Bus Depot that you +directed us? + +Mr. WHALEY. On the right from the Greyhound and Lamar to Jackson; right +on Jackson and left at Austin and right at Wood. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. WHALEY. Then left on Houston, which is the approach to the viaduct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to Houston? + +You turned left? + +Mr. WHALEY. I said west to Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go? + +Mr. WHALEY. You go on the approach past the Union Terminal and up the +ramp which is called the Houston Street viaduct. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. WHALEY. You run into Zangs Boulevard. + +Mr. BELIN. How far on Zangs? + +Mr. WHALEY. To Beckley. Beckley crosses it. We got to the intersection +of Zangs and Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. Did we go about the speed you drove that day? + +Mr. WHALEY. Almost. Going across the viaduct is just about the speed, +but he slowed down going up Zangs Boulevard. He slowed down a little +slower than I was going. + +My normal rate of speed, I don't remember the exact speed I was +traveling, but I assume it was normal, because that is the way I travel +all the time when traffic is clear enough. + +Mr. BELIN. Your normal rate of speed would be a little bit faster than +the rate that he took? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In other words, not enough to make over half a +minute difference in the timing. + +Mr. BELIN. Was traffic clearer on that particular day of November 22? + +Mr. WHALEY. It was extra clear, for some reason. That street was clear +except when I hit Beckley. When I hit Beckley, there was cars turning +to the left, and I had to stop for the light. + +Mr. BELIN. When we got to Beckley at noon today, or shortly thereafter, +the traffic light was green, but you told us you had stopped, so we +waited through the red light, did we not? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then he turned on Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Heading south? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when this man that you picked up on November 22 got into +your cab, where did he say he wanted to go? + +Mr. WHALEY. To the 500 block of North Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. I will take you back to November 22. + +You turned south on Beckley and then where did you go as you turned +south on Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. I went right up on Beckley headed toward the 500 block. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. WHALEY. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley +and Neely, he said, "This will do right here," and I pulled up to the +curb. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that was the 700 block. + +Mr. BELIN. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of +North Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you crossed Neely Street yet when you let him off? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far north of Neely street did you let the man off? + +Mr. WHALEY. About 20 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you went down to the police station to identify this +man? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw a lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all? + +Mr. WHALEY. There was four of them, sir, and from the right to the +left, he was No. 3. + +Mr. BELIN. Starting from the right to the left, from his right or your +right? + +Mr. WHALEY. From your right, sir, which would have been his left. There +were numbers above their heads, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, what number did you say the man was in the +lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. No. 2. + +Mr. BELIN. From the right or from your right? + +Mr. WHALEY. From my left. + +Mr. BELIN. No. 2? + +Mr. WHALEY. They brought out four of them and stood them up there, and +he was under No. 2. I mentioned he was the third one that come out. +There were four and all handcuffed together. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you sign an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I will hand you a document which I am calling Whaley +Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to say if your signature appears on +there? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is my signature. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I notice in the statement there it says that you +traveled Wood Street to Houston Street, turned left and went over the +viaduct to Zangs Boulevard. You see that statement there? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on +Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in +the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped." + +Now is that what you told them on that day? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the +500 block, or not? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I +drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place +when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through +the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed +it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 +block of North Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now +know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound +Bus Station * * *" + +Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man? + +Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see +the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to +the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. You signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, now, let's get this straight. You are getting me +confused. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I will put it this way. There was an FBI reporter, FBI +interviewer with you? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. BELIN. And there was an interview with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. And Bill Alexander from the district attorney's office +was there, also. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, the last sentence. + +Mr. WHALEY. Let me tell you how they fixed this up. They had me in the +office saying that. They were writing it out on paper, and they wrote +it out on paper, and this officer, Leavelle, I think that is his name, +before he finished and before I signed he wanted me to go with him to +the lineup, so I went to the lineup, and I come back and he asked me +which one it was, which number it was, and I identified the man, and we +went back up in the office again, and then they had me sign this. That +is as near as I can remember. + +My recollection for that afternoon in that office was very disturbed +because everytime they would open the door, some flash camera would +flash in your face and everybody coming in and out and asking you +questions. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean reporters? + +Mr. WHALEY. I made this statement more to Bill Alexander, because I +tried to talk to him more. Everybody was trying to talk to me at once. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw the statement the first time, did you see the +statement before you went down to see the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. No; I didn't see the statement. I don't think I did. I am +not for sure. + +I think I signed it after I came back. It was on paper. They were +writing it up on paper. + +Mr. BELIN. They were writing? + +Mr. WHALEY. Before I left there, I signed this typewritten, because +they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. I had to wait. + +Mr. BELIN. But was this before or after you saw the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. After she typed it up. It was after. + +Mr. BELIN. It was after? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is when I signed it, after. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you signed it--what I want to know is, before you +went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you +saw was the No. 3 man in the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't remember that. I don't remember whether it said +three or two, or what. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they have any statements on there before you went down +to the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. I never saw what they had in there. It was all written out +by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and that could be +writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed my name because +they said that is what I said. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Whaley---- + +Mr. WHALEY. I know, sir, but I don't think you can understand what I +had to put up with that afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean with the press? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; with everything. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I do understand, sir, and I appreciate that you were +under a great deal of pressure at that time, and I want to try and +get at the actual facts, and that is why we asked you to come back to +testify again, because we wanted to know basically whether or not the +man that you drove in the cab got off in the 500 block or the 700 block. + +Mr. WHALEY. The man I drove in the cab got off where I told you he got +off, this morning. + +I picked him up, and I showed you where I picked him up, and the trip +runs 95 cents on the meter. He gave me a dollar and got off and he +never spoke a word to me, except he wanted to go to 500 North Beckley. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember a woman coming up to the cab? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened then? + +Mr. WHALEY. The lady, I don't remember whether she was very old, but +she was middle-aged. She bent down and stuck in and said, "Can I have +this cab?" And he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. I +thought he was going to let her have it. + +I told her there would be another one, and she said, "Would you please +call me one." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to the woman, that you can remember? + +Mr. WHALEY. When she wanted to know if she could have the cab, I don't +know, but I got a faint hunch he did tell her she could have this one, +or something like that. What it was, I was watching my left-hand side. +I wanted to pull out when the light changed. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when you saw a lineup down at the police station---- + +Mr. WHALEY. He didn't have on the same clothes. He had on a white +T-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember now whether the man that you saw there was +the No. 2 or the No. 3 man? + +Mr. WHALEY. I will admit he was No. 2. + +Mr. BELIN. No. 2 from your left, or from your right? + +Mr. WHALEY. He was the third man out in the line of four as they walked +out in a line. They put the first man out on the right, and the last +one on my left, and as near as I can remember, he was No. 2, but it was +the man I hauled. + +Mr. BELIN. It says here the No. 3. + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, I am not trying to mix nobody up. I'm giving it to +you the best of my ability. + +Mr. BELIN. Your memory right now is that it was the No. 2 man? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is the way it is right now. I don't think it will +change again. + +But on that afternoon, all I saw was the man that I hauled up there, +and they asked me which number he was, and I said No. 2. I am almost +sure I did, but I couldn't get up to swear to it that I did, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Just one more minute, if you would, please? + +Mr. Whaley, earlier in your testimony here you said that Lee Harvey +Oswald was No. 3. Do you remember saying that? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I meant that he was the third one out when +they walked out with him. I said from my right. + +Mr. BELIN. From your right he was No. 3? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What number was over his head? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, they--when they walked over the line and they stopped +him, No. 2 was over his head, but he was pulling on both of the other +men on each side and arguing with this detective, so he didn't stay +under any certain number. + +He was moving like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him later on television? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. You never did see his picture in the paper? + +Mr. WHALEY. I saw his picture in the paper the next morning, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. That would have been Sunday morning, the 24th? + +Mr. WHALEY. I guess it was, if you say it was, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I don't want to---- + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't want to get you mixed up and get your whole +investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a good defense +attorney could take me apart. I get confused. I try to tell you exactly +what happened, to the best of my ability, when they brought Oswald out +in the lineup of four. He was the third man out. I don't know which way +they count them. + +Mr. BELIN. We don't want you to be concerned about affecting the +investigation one way or the other by what you say. What we want you to +say is tell us what you know, to the best of your recollection. + +Mr. WHALEY. That is exactly what I am doing, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. What day of the week did you take this +cab passenger, on a Friday or Saturday? + +Mr. WHALEY. I would have to see my trip sheet. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the day of the motorcade? + +Mr. WHALEY. The day of the President's parade, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, was it that day that you went down to the police +station to see the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the next day? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. The next day you went down to the Dallas Police Station and +saw a lineup of how many people? + +Mr. WHALEY. Four people. + +Mr. BELIN. These men came out and there were numbers above their heads? + +Mr. WHALEY. The numbers were stationary. Looked through a black silk +screen at them. In other words, they were very dim, the numbers. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see as the number over the man that you +identified as having been in your cab that day? + +Mr. WHALEY. No. 2. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see a picture of that man in the paper at any time? + +Mr. WHALEY. Saturday morning, sir; following the event on Friday. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw his picture in the paper? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man that you identified as No. 2 in the +lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see his picture in the paper again? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I take that back, sir. I saw the picture in the +paper when they had, when Ruby killed him at the time between the two +detectives. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the man in connection with the Ruby matter with the two +detectives, did it have his name in the paper as Lee Harvey Oswald? Was +his name in the paper then when you saw his picture? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, I don't think they had it that way. I think they just +had it Oswald. I am not sure what they had under it. I am not for sure, +but I did see the picture. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man you carried in your cab on Friday? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that the man you identified at the police station? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It is your best recollection, if I understand it, that this +was the No. 2 man in the lineup? + +Mr. WHALEY. That's right, sir. That was from the left now. No. 2 from +my left. I was facing him. + +Mr. BELIN. Right. I mean correct. Now, your affidavit which is Whaley's +Deposition Exhibit A, the last sentence says, "The No. 3 man who I now +know as Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound +bus station to the 500 block of North Beckley." Now you say it was the +No. 2 man from your left, is that correct? + +Mr. WHALEY. From my left. No. 3 from my right. + +Mr. BELIN. What about whether or not you carried him to the 500 block +of North Beckley. Did you carry him there? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. That is where he asked me. That is where I put on +my trip sheet. + +Mr. BELIN. You had it on the trip sheet the 500 block of North Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you put it on your trip sheet, before or after you +let him out? + +Mr. WHALEY. After, sir; a good while after. + +Mr. BELIN. Why? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, see, sometimes when you are busy you make three or +four trips before you ever write one up. + +Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you put it on your trip sheet for 700 instead of +500 North Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Because that is what he told me and that is what I remember +when I wrote the trip up. I imagine there were hundreds of trip sheets, +because people get off before they get where they are going. But I +remember the thing that way. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first ascertain or start thinking about it that +it was the 700 block of North Beckley where you let him off? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, when the FBI man got in my cab and he wanted to go +over the route. + +Mr. BELIN. When was this? + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't know the exact date, sir, but it was the next week. + +Mr. BELIN. In the next week you told the FBI that it was the 700 block? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I don't recall. I know I took him to where I let +him out. + +Mr. BELIN. You did? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was the 700 block of North +Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. I left it said just like I had it on my trip +sheet. Nobody else asked me about it. + +Mr. BELIN. When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch +from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do +you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch? + +Mr. WHALEY. A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer +or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today? + +Mr. WHALEY. It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take +a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to +my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped +on the lights that I stopped on. + +Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and +30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride, +and let the record further show that Dr. Goldberg and Mr. Robert Davis +from the Texas attorney general's office and I walked back from the +point where the Deponent Whaley told us he let the passenger off at the +residence at 1026 North Beckley, and that this walk took 5 minutes and +45 seconds. + +And let the record further show that after visiting the rooming house +at 1026 North Beckley--that is what I call the "long way around +route,"--was walked from 1026 North Beckley to the scene of the Tippit +shooting, which took 17 minutes and 45 seconds at an average walking +pace, and this route would be to take Beckley to 10th Street and then +turn on 10th Street toward Patton, and this is not the most direct +route. Rather, the most direct route would be to take Beckley to Davis +Street and then turn left or east on Davis, walking a short block to +Crawford, and taking Crawford to 10th, and then 10th east to Patton, or +taking Davis Street directly to Patton, and taking Patton down to East +10th, and that the more direct nature of the later route appears from +the map which I believe is Commission's Exhibit No. 371, which is the +Dallas street map. + +Mr. Whaley, is there anything else that you care to add, or can you add +anything else that might be helpful in this investigation? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I can't. + +Mr. BELIN. We sure appreciate all your help and taking the time to go +over the route today. + +Mr. WHALEY. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you +before. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can +come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it +before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. +You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can +waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington. + +Mr. WHALEY. Does it make any difference? + +Mr. BELIN. It does not make any difference. + +Mr. WHALEY. It will all be what you said and what she took down? + +Mr. BELIN. What you said? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; and what I said? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. WHALEY. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLENE ROBERTS + +The testimony of Mrs. Earlene Roberts was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April +8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and +Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. +Alfred Goldberg was present. + + +Mr. BALL. Would you stand and take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Mrs. Earlene Roberts. + +Mr. BALL. And what is your address? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. 5000 Tremont, now. + +Mr. BALL. You used to live at 1026 North Beckley, didn't you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, Mrs. Roberts, where you +were born and where you have lived? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I was born in Nashville, Tenn., and my mother and father +moved to Tyler, Tex., and I was raised there and married a Dallas man. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Tyler? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. To my sorrows, I got married in the ninth grade. + +Mr. BALL. You did--you got married in the ninth grade? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get married in Dallas or in Tyler? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. In Tyler. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have some children? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; to my sorrows--I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do in Tyler then--until you came to Dallas? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I was a PBX operator at the Hotel Blackstone. That's +where I met my husband. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you lived here? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Since 1938. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, until he passed away--I didn't work for I didn't +have to. He made me a good living, but since that time I have +been--well, just, I guess you would call it practical nursing or +housekeeping and now I am with an elderly couple--he has cancer--the +same kind that Sam Rayburn had and he's taken with leukemia. + +Mr. BALL. That's at the address you have just given us? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you know Mrs. Johnson, don't you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I knew her very muchly so. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work for her? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, this last time I was there around 13 months--that +was the third time I had went back. + +Mr. BALL. When did you start working for her? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I started working for her in 1949 the first time. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you worked for her three times altogether? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I got sick the first time--I'm a diabetic and wasn't +able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know +if I would do it and I went back and stayed again and I went in a coma +and had to leave, and the reason why I left this time, she cut me down +so low and the work was too heavy--I wasn't able to do the work. + +Mr. BALL. You mean she cut you down on your money? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes; and I can't pay my doctor bill and buy my +medicine at that price. + +Mr. BALL. You mean, she didn't pay you enough--that's the reason you +quit? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That's the reason why I quit--the work was too heavy and +I wasn't able to do it and not enough pay. + +Mr. BALL. And you were working there in October and November of last +fall--1963? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; to my sorrows. + +Mr. BALL. Why to your sorrows? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was registered as O. H. Lee and I come to find +out he was Oswald and I wish I had never known it. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they put me through the third degree. + +Mr. BALL. Who did? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. The FBI, Secret Service, Mr. Will Fritz' men and Bill +Decker's. + +Mr. BALL. They did? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Every time I would walk out on the front porch somebody +was standing with a camera on me--they had me scared to death. + +Mr. BALL. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. The day he came in and rented the room--the 14th of +October. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of the man before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, and he didn't register as Oswald--he registered as O. +H. Lee. + +Mr. BALL. Did he sign his name? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee. + +Mr. BALL. Did he sign his own name that way? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee--that's what he was registered as. + +Mr. BALL. Did you rent it to him, or did Mrs. Johnson? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I rented the room to him. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. She talked to him, and she had to go back to the work and +that was what I was supposed to do--I rented the rooms--she didn't know +what vacancies she had. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have "room for rent" sign out in the front? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day did he come in there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, it was in the early afternoon--I imagine between 1 +and 2 o'clock when he came in and looked at the room; and he rented it +and paid for it; and then left, and went and got his things and I don't +know--it must have been around 5 or 6 o'clock when he come back in. + +Mr. BALL. You say he went and got his things--what did he have with him +at first when he came there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Just a little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a satchel bag? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. One of them little zip kinds. + +Mr. BALL. What color was it? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. It was just--don't ask me that for I can't answer that. +It was just a dark bag is all I know. + +Mr. BALL. How long did he stay that first time? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oswald? + +Mr. BALL. I mean before he went away to get his clothes, when he first +came in--you say he rented a room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He rented the room and paid me $8 for it and he said, +"I'll go get my things and I will be back." + +Mr. BALL. Did he say where he was going to get them? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did he leave? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; he left. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a car he was riding in? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't see it. + +Mr. BALL. Did he take a bus? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't. I don't remember--you know in a place like +that--when you rent a room--I didn't pay no attention. + +Mr. BALL. And he came back about what time? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, I imagine around 5 o'clock, maybe. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have with him at that time? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That little zipper satchel bag and some clothes on a +hanger. + +Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you he had a zipper satchel +bag? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; he didn't have nothing when he first come in and +rented the room. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't have anything? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he just came in. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, when he came back he had the zipper satchel and the +clothes on the hanger, is that right? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he rented the room and paid for it and said, "I'll +go get my things." That's when he went and come back with his little +satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger, which was a very few. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did he have anything to say when he came back? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he had been? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did he stay there that night? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about anything? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; because he wouldn't talk. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say "Hello"? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Or, "Goodby"? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Or anything? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He wouldn't say nothing. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes--I would say, "Good afternoon," and he would +just maybe look at me--give me a dirty look and keep walking and go on +to his room. + +Mr. BALL. Did he watch television? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--in a way--but all he did ever watch the television +was if someone in the other rooms had it on, maybe he would come and +stand at the back of the couch--not over 5 minutes and go to his room +and shut the door and never say a word. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go out any at night? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did he stay home every night? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--he stayed home every night--I didn't ever know of +him going out. If he did, he left after I went to bed and I never knew +it. + +Mr. BALL. Was he gone any weekends? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He would leave on Friday nights--he did say this much--he +said, "Now, over weekends I will be out of town." He didn't say what +town. He said, "I will be going out of town visiting friends." He would +leave Friday morning for work and he wouldn't come back any more until +Monday afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was one weekend when he didn't come back on Monday? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; there was one weekend that he didn't go out. + +Mr. BALL. Which one was that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, as far as--you know what? + +Mr. BALL. Was that the weekend? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I think--now, if I had the books, I could tell you. + +Mr. BALL. Which books? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. The books that are over there on North Beckley. I believe +it was on the weekend before--when was President Kennedy shot? + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. What day was that--that was on Friday, wasn't it? + +Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was on the weekend before that. + +Mr. BALL. What happened--what was that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't go nowhere. + +Mr. BALL. He stayed in all weekend, is that right? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir; and then that first Thursday, he got up +Thursday and left for work and he didn't come back no more until +Friday. + +Mr. BALL. He left on Thursday and didn't come home on Thursday night? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't spend Thursday night there and that was +unusual, because he would always leave on Friday. That's the best I +can do. He was just the type of person you just don't know--and I just +thought he didn't like people and he would mix with nobody and he +wouldn't say nothing. The only time he would ever say anything was when +his rent was due and he was never behind. + +I'll tell you when it was--it was when he didn't come back on Monday, +you know, there was a holiday that people took off work. + +Mr. BALL. That was Armistice Day. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That he said, "I have a long weekend." + +Mr. BALL. He didn't come back on that Monday? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come back until the next day. He said he +had a long weekend. + +Mr. BALL. That was after his long weekend he came back on a Tuesday +that week? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it--who would forget that? + +Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men--it was plainclothesmen and +I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and +they identified themselves and then he called me. + +Mr. BALL. What did they say? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald +there. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the +housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, +"No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me +remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and +there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. +Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is +my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a +year. + +Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name--you didn't ever know his name +was Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for +Harvey Lee Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. You say that you saw Lee Oswald--you say he didn't come home +Thursday night that week? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week. + +Mr. BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen +him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on +your door? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day. + +Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday---- + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it. + +Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute--he came home that Friday +in an unusual hurry. + +Mr. BALL. And about what time was this? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I +had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and +I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What +are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it +on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up--I could +hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and +I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said +a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 +minutes. + +Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in +a hurry"? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. You were working with the television? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and +try to find out about President Kennedy. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a +hurry,"--why did you say that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking +unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up +and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." + +Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in--he didn't look around at me--he didn't +say nothing and went on to his room. + +Mr. BALL. Did he run? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast--he was +all but running. + +Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but +I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color +it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on--it was kind of a +zipper jacket. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did--if I did, I don't remember it. + +Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves. + +Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I +was interested in the television trying to get it fixed. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it--the +shirt, or do you know? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember--I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket. + +Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit +162--have you ever seen this jacket before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems +like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, +because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket? + +Mr. BALL. Yes--it has a zipper down the front. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was. + +Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, +he was zipping it up as he went out the door. + +Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then, when you saw him, did you see any part of his belt? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. There is some suspicion that when he left there he might have +had a pistol or a revolver in his belt; did you see anything like that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 150--it is a +shirt--have you seen that before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have. Now, that looks kind of like the dark +shirt that he had on. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald came in, he was in a shirt--does this shirt +look anything like the shirt he had on? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. It was a dark shirt he had on--I think it was a dark one, +but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what--I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Does the color of this shirt which I show you here, +Commission Exhibit No. 150, look anything like the shirt he had on? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm sorry, I just don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald +came in? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe +a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been +shot--what time I wouldn't want to say because---- + +Mr. BALL. How long did he stay in the room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes--just long enough, I +guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out +zipping it. + +Mr. BALL. You recall he went out zipping it--was he running or walking? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He was walking fast--he was making tracks pretty fast. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you as he went out? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Probably wouldn't have gotten no answer. + +Mr. BALL. What is the only thing you said to him from the time he came +in the house until he left? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. "You sure are in a hurry." + +Mr. BALL. Is that all? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That was all. + +Mr. BALL. That's all you said to him? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That's all I said to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Nothing. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't say nothing--he wouldn't say nothing--period. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he left, or do you +know? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. What? + +Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he came in as when +he went out? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, I wouldn't say that because I don't remember--I +didn't pay that much attention. I didn't mean to be hateful, but I +didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did it appear to you he had on the same pants or +different pants from the time he came in and when he went out? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I just didn't pay that much attention. All I +remember--he was zipping up a coat and I was trying to find out about +President Kennedy--I was still trying to find out about President +Kennedy--they was broadcasting it then--I was more interested in that. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a gun in his room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever cleaned up his room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I cleaned his rooms, but I didn't see no gun. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go through any of his effects? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, no. + +Mr. BALL. There was a little wooden commode or closet in there, wasn't +there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. There was a chifforobe--yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever look in there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir; I sure didn't--that's against the rules--to +ransack their things. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any drawers or anything in there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; there was drawers in that chifforobe and he also had +a vanity dresser with four drawers. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever look inside of that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. After he left the house and at sometime later in the +afternoon, these police officers came out, did they? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes. + +Mr. BALL. And they asked you if there was a man named Lee Oswald there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you told them "No"? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was trying to make us understand that--I had two +new men and they told me--Mrs. Johnson told me, "Go get your keys and +let them see in" I had gone to the back and they still had the TV on, +and they was broadcasting about Kennedy. + +Just as I unlocked the doors Fritz' men, two of them had walked in and +she come running in and said, "Oh, Roberts, come here quick. This is +this fellow Lee in this little room next to yours," and they flashed +him on television, is how come us to know. + +Mr. BALL. Then you knew it was the man? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; and I come in there and she said, "Wait," and then +again they flashed him back on and I said, "Yes, that's him--that's O. +H. Lee right here in this room." And it was just a little wall there +between him and I. + +Mr. BALL. That was the first you knew who it was? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, because he was registered as O. H. Lee. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever know he had a gun in his room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever appear on a television interview with Mr. or +Mrs. Johnson--either one? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, no; they was on and would be on and then they had +me on twice. + +Mr. BALL. On television? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. On television. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I was in the living room. + +Mr. BALL. And they brought their cameras into the living room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. They brought their cameras into the living room and took +pictures. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I was then, because they was questioning me. They +asked Mr. and Mrs. Johnson not to be in there at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Then, they questioned you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever have an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Johnson +being there? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes; one time, and then they would question them +separate from me. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any one time when they questioned all three of you +together? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--one time. + +Mr. BALL. Just one time--were you ever on television when you and Mrs. +Johnson were on it alone together? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. She and Mr. Johnson would be together and then I would be +at the back when they put them on television, and then they had me on +two different times and I was alone. They taken me when I was standing +and showed them where it was. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on television did they ever ask you if Oswald had a gun? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ever ask you if you knew whether Oswald had a gun in +his room or not? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; they asked me and I told them "No"--for I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he had a gun in there or not? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You never saw one? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell them that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I sure did--I didn't know he had a gun. + +Mr. BALL. And when he was zipping up his jacket, his belt was covered? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Was it covered--well--I don't know. I just couldn't +answer you--I don't know--I don't remember it. I couldn't any more tell +you than the man in the moon whether or not the man's belt was covered +or uncovered. All I know he was zipping his coat. + +Mr. BALL. Let me ask you another question: Did you ever talk to a +reporter from a French newspaper? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. A French newspaper? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, there was people in there from about everywhere, +but I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. There was some French newspaperman who claims he interviewed +you. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. French? + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any French newspapermen interviewing you? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't remember, but there were people in there from +somewhere but I don't remember where they were from. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald before the +Friday when the police came out? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you had, of course, thought his name was what? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee. + +Mr. BALL. He had paid you, had he? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He always paid on time. + +Mr. BALL. And you made a record of it? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, after these police officers came out of there, did you +see a gun holster in his room after they had searched it? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--there was one of them little outfits--a little +holster and they taken it out and where they got it--I don't know, but +it was in the room. They had it in their hands, one of the men was +holding it. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I hadn't. + +Mr. BALL. Let me ask you something about his habits again--how early +would he leave his room in the morning? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would leave around 7 o'clock, maybe between 6:30 +and 7. + +Mr. BALL. And what time would he come back? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would get home about maybe 5--something around 5 +o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. And with the exception of the weekends that he spent away, +was he home every night or was he out at night? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He was always home at night--he never went out. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on one holiday that occurred on Monday--he didn't come +in? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come in that Monday. + +Mr. BALL. Was that the only Monday he didn't come in? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. That was the only Monday he didn't come in. + +Mr. BALL. He paid on Monday? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He paid on Monday and that was the only time he didn't +pay on Monday and he wasn't there. + +Mr. BALL. He paid on what day of the week that week? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Tuesday--when he came in home. + +Mr. BALL. But the weekend before November 22d, he was there all +weekend, was he? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I also will ask you whether or not you ever heard of a +fellow by the name of Ruby--did you ever hear of a fellow by the name +of Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard his name before he was accused of shooting +Oswald? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. + +Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I never heard his name. + +Mr. BALL. And had never seen him? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did a police car pass the house there and honked? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When was that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. He came in the house. + +Mr. BALL. When he came in the house? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. When he came in the house and went to his room, you know +how the sidewalk runs? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Right direct in front of that door--there was a police +car stopped and honked. I had worked for some policemen and sometimes +they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me +to know, and I thought it was them, and I just glanced out and saw the +number, and I said, "Oh, that's not their car," for I knew their car. + +Mr. BALL. You mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. It wasn't the police car I knew, because their number was +170 and it wasn't 170 and I ignored it. + +Mr. BALL. And who was in the car? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't pay any attention to it after I +noticed it wasn't them--I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Where was it parked? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. It was parked in front of the house. + +Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. And then they just eased on--the way it is--it was the +third house off of Zangs and they just went on around the corner that +way. + +Mr. BALL. Went around what corner? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Went around the corner off of Beckley on Zangs. + +Mr. BALL. Going which way--toward town or away from town? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Toward town. + +Dr. GOLDBERG. Which way was the car facing? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. It was facing north. + +Dr. GOLDBERG. Towards Zangs? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Towards Zangs--for I was the third house right off of +Zangs on Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--it stopped directly in front of my house and it just +"tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely +would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw +it wasn't their number. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald when this happened? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. In his room. + +Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Had that police car ever stopped there before? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I don't remember ever seeing it. + +Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen it since? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't pay that much attention--I just saw it +wasn't the police car that I knew and had worked for so, I forgot about +it. I seen it at the time, but I don't remember now what it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you report the number of the car to anyone? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I think I did--I'm not sure, because I--at that +particular time I remembered it. + +Mr. BALL. You remembered the number of the car? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I think it was--106, it seems to me like it was 106, but +I do know what theirs was--it was 170 and it wasn't their car. + +Mr. BALL. It was not 170? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. The people I worked for was 170. + +Mr. BALL. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this +incident to anyone? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they +was out there. + +Mr. BALL. And did you tell them the number of the car? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I +did because--there was so much happened then until my brains was in a +whirl. + +Mr. BALL. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and +James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you +and you told them that "after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. +on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police +car No. 207." + +Mrs. ROBERTS. No. 107. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the number? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--I remembered it. I don't know where I got that +106--207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170. + +Mr. BALL. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the +car? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident +squad car at all. + +Mr. BALL. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BALL. And one of the officers sounded the horn? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice. + +Mr. BALL. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that +right? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't +remember it but I did know the number of their car--I could tell that. +I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree +and it's hard to remember. + +Mr. BALL. Are there any other questions? + +Dr. GOLDBERG. No, that's all. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Mrs. Roberts, this deposition will be written up and you +can read it if you want to and you can sign it, or you can waive the +signature. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm +completely blind in my right eye. + +Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? And then you won't have +to come back down here. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, okay. + +Mr. BALL. All right, you waive it then? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. + +Do you want me to sign it now? + +Mr. BALL. No; we couldn't, because this young lady has to write it up +and it will be a couple of weeks before it will be ready. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, will you want me to come back or how? + +Mr. BALL. Well, you can waive your signature and you won't have to come +back to do that--do you want to do that? + +Mrs. ROBERTS. Okay, it will be all right. + +Mr. BALL. All right. The Secret Service will take you home now. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming. + +Mrs. ROBERTS. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DOMINGO BENAVIDES + + +The testimony of Domingo Benavides was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 2, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to raise your hand and stand up and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you state your name for our reporter, please? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Domingo Benavides. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I am 27, April the 9th. I am now 26. + +Mr. BELIN. Single or married? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Married. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Two children and one expected sometime this month. + +Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. From Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. You were born in Dallas? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Dallas? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Tenth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of school? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I just went to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you work first? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Merchants Delivery. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I was helper on a truck and part-time mechanic; mechanic +helper. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine about 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I went into the Navy. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yeoman and seaman. + +Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Three years. + +Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You did not have an honorable discharge? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Navy? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I returned to work for Merchants Delivery. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, just from there I jumped around from roofing +companies. I started in roofing then and I worked for Donald Bost, +which is Town & Country Roofing Co., for on up until about 4 years ago, +I guess. Then I just started mechanicing. + +Mr. BELIN. You started to become an automobile mechanic? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. For whom did you work then? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I worked in Martinez, Calif., for Donley Chevrolet & +Cadillac Co., and then later on I was transferred to their paint and +body shop, and then I came back to Dallas and I worked for Mr. Harris. + +Mr. BELIN. For whom? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Mr. Harris, at Dootch Motors. + +Mr. BELIN. Dootch Motors? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? That is, as a mechanic? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been working for Dootch now? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, off and on about 3 years. During this time I went +back to Merchants Delivery and worked there and then I worked for +Southern Delivery, too. + +Mr. BELIN. Now when was the last time you went back to Dootch Motors? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It's been a year ago. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them ever since? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to November 22, 1963, anything unusual +happen that day? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. On the 22d? + +Mr. BELIN. 22d of November 1963? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. This would be embarrassing. Was that the day of the +Assassination of the President? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I was thinking it was the 24th. Well, nothing except it +seemed like a pretty nice day. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what day of the week it was? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the day that the President was assassinated? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that he was assassinated in Dallas? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, yes; I remember this. + +Mr. BELIN. That day you had lunch, were you at work that day? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You had lunch? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I had lunch. And then this man had stalled this car in +the middle of the street and asked me if I would fix it. Something was +wrong with the carburetor, or pump that had broken in it, and I went +around to the parts house to get the parts for it. + +Mr. BELIN. Where had the man's car stopped in the middle of the street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, on Patton Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Patton and what? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Between Jefferson and 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. A car stopped in the middle of the street between---- + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Jefferson and Tenth. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time of day was this? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine it was about 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. You imagine it was about 1 o'clock? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It was after lunch. I had already eaten. It was after I +had lunch and I had eaten around 12, somewhere around 12 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? You were going to get a carburetor part, so +what did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I was in a rush and I ran off and forgot the number of +the carburetor. + +Mr. BELIN. You forgot the number of the carburetor? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I circled back. I left down the alley. + +Mr. BELIN. Which alley is this? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The one directly between 10th and Patton and Jefferson +Street. + +Mr. BELIN. It runs parallel to 10th and Jefferson and it runs, the +alley would run east of Patton Street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. The alley runs right behind Dootch Motors there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of vehicle were you driving? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. 1958 pickup truck Chevrolet. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, what route did you take? Were you headed east or +west in the alley? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. East. + +Mr. BELIN. To what? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. To Denver street. + +Mr. BELIN. Which is the next street over from Patton? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. First street east of Patton, then where? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I turned right, which is east on 10th. Wait. Denver +would be north, I imagine. I turned from the alley north on Denver. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. And east on 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you turned east on---- + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The parts house sets on Marsalis and 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. Marsalis and 10th? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; so I got almost up to the parts house and I thought +about the number, so I was going to go back and get the number off the +carburetor. I turned in a drive and turned around and started back. + +Mr. BELIN. On what street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. On 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. On East 10th? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I was going west on 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I got almost up to the corner when I seen the +policeman. I first seen the car stop up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you say you got almost to a corner. What corner was +that? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. At Denver and 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. You almost got up to Denver and 10th heading west on 10th +Street when you saw something? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw this police car. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw a police car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It was sitting about 4 or 5 feet from the curb and down +about 2 houses from the corner of Patton Street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Was it between Patton and Denver? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. On what side of East 10th, north or south? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. On the south side. + +Mr. BELIN. What direction was it headed? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed east. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see then? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by +the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, +and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side +of the car. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the officer as he was getting out of +the car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I seen as he was, well, he had his hand on the door +and kind of in a hurry to get out, it seemed like. + +Mr. BELIN. Had he already gotten out of the car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He had already gotten around. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the other man? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The other man was standing to the right side of the +car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the +windshield on the right front fender. And then I heard the shot. +Actually I wasn't looking for anything like that, so I heard the shot, +and I just turned into the curb. Looked around to miss a car, I think. + +And then I pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and I ducked down, +and then I heard two more shots. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I heard three shots. + +Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when your vehicle stopped? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe +a car length away from the police car. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you have been a car length to the east or a car length +to the west of the police car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. East of the front side of it. + +Mr. BELIN. So your vehicle wouldn't have quite gotten up to where the +police car was? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; it didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. How fast were you going when you watched the policeman +getting out of his car? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, I imagine not maybe 25 miles an hour. I never did +pay much attention to it. + +Mr. BELIN. You say you stopped the car right away? Your vehicle, I mean? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. I just didn't exactly stop because--I just +pulled it into the curb. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you say you heard a shot and you then ducked? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in. + +Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I ducked down. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the +policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the policeman as he fell? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What else did you see? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk +and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of +stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have +took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he +kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the man going around the corner headed in what +direction on what street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. On Patton Street. He was going south. + +Mr. BELIN. He was going south on Patton Street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; do you know Dootch Motors? + +Mr. BELIN. Do I know Dootch Motors? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was +going? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. On the east side. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him going on the east? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go down Patton? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other +words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his position? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that +shot him? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing like I say, on the center in front of +the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car. + +Mr. BELIN. He was not moving when you saw him? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; he wasn't moving then. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what +did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind +of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I +thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out +and rush right up. He might start shooting again. + +That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the policeman, +and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood +coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and +just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the policeman say anything? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the +ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman as he fell, as you saw him? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half +way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in +front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front +headlight, about middleway when he started to fall. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on +his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his +hand, too. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further +than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio +and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, +and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me +whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't +remember where it was at at the time. + +So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw a number on the house then? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Then he started to--then I don't know what he said; but +I put the radio back. I mean, the microphone back up, and this other +guy was standing there, so I got up out of the car, and I don't know, I +wasn't sure if he heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car. + +Mr. BELIN. There was another passerby that stopped? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was he, do you know? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell you. I don't know who he was. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he driving a car or walking? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't know. He was just standing there whenever I +looked up. He was standing at the door of the car, and I don't know +what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to +keep the line clear, or something, and stay off the phone, or something +like that. That he already knew about it. + +So then I turned and walked off. I never did assist him after that at +all. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. At the time I walked out, I guess I was scared, so I +started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's +house, and I got in the yard and I said I'd better go back, or just +caught myself until I got over there, I guess, so I went back around +there. + +Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do? + +First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or +that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right +now? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well. I started--I seen him throw the shells and I +started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when +I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw +the shells? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I sure don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun +also? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another +shell in his gun. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually +put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it. + +Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been +reloading it or something. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again +the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of +the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. He was just +turning away. + +In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just +turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and +it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into +the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, +until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the +left there and went on down Patton Street. + +Mr. BELIN. When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned +to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go +clear to the corner and turn off? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the +yard. + +Mr. BELIN. He kitty-cornered across the yard? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the +sidewalk. He just cut across the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he +already started across the yard? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he +threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already +cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you saw him throw two shells? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw where he threw the shells? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you later go back in that area and try and find the +shells? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew +exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my +hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints +off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them +up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome +looking shell. + +Mr. BELIN. A chrome looking shell? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you +started looking for them? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked +directly to them. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw where he had thrown them? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other +one was by the bush. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard +three shots. Do you know whether or not he threw other shells there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look at all there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I didn't bother to look there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when he cut across the yard? Did he go +between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on Patton Street, or do you +know? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Between the house and the bush; yes, sir. He had to cut +across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about the man after you saw +him? What was he wearing? What did he look like? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was kind of, well, just about your size. + +Mr. BELIN. About my size? I am standing up. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. You are about 5' 10"? + +Mr. BELIN. I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was about your size, and he had a +light-beige jacket, and was lightweight. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. What color was the trousers? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. They were dark. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what +color. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he average weight, slender, or heavy? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was average weight. + +Mr. BELIN. What color hair did he have? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, dark. I mean not dark. + +Mr. BELIN. Black hair? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No. Not black or brown, just kind of a---- + +Mr. BELIN. My color hair? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit +curlier. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all. + +Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark +complexioned? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark. + +Mr. BELIN. Average complexion? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average. + +Mr. BELIN. My complexion? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about +your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit +ruddier than mine. + +Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine? + +I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22, +1963. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des +Moines, Iowa, at about this time. + +Is there anything else? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline +was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of +tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, +but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and +made his head look flat in back. + +Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this +cigarette package, what did you do with them? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer. + +Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that +this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed +like he was a young guy, maybe 24. + +Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25. + +Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you +had seen? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I +turned around and went back and we returned to work. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with +you? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two +officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told +them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I +was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you +all the time. + +Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the +President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he +had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and +everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen +him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked +me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. + +At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't +going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if +you could identify him? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was +Oswald? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, +resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or +both, or neither? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The +thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every +day for a long time there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was +going on? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what +happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I +said just the policeman got shot. + +Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he +asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened +the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there +was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side +of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or +something of that sort. + +Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what +happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of +the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like +that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on +the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. This cab? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk +on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this +cab had pulled in there by the stop sign. + +Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th +when it was parked there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part +of the cab have been? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6 +feet from the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. From the corner? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be +up on the curb. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came +to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down +Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had +already seen him go by there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen +him go by. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police +station to try to identify the man? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind +of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I +say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd +taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down +there. I think it was the next day, or the day after. + +Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified +him as the guy that came by the carlot. + +Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and +identified him? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me. + +Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What does he do there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager. + +Mr. BELIN. Used-car place? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you +can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay. + +Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as +"Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any +similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had +laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that. + +Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit +150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that. + +Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on +there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen +it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was +arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like +he had a jacket on there. + +Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket +on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now. + +I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I +believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and +he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he +heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled +over, and I don't know if he came back there or not. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything +really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and +they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly +in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you +think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one +day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at +Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men. + +Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as +to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here +to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or +try to tell you things as I saw them? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to +you what happened. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got +here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter +started taking your testimony? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I +added a little bit since she was here. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you +told me before the court reporter got here? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand. + +Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the +court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court +reporter got here? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter +that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or +different in anyway from what you told me before? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Different in wording but---- + +Mr. BELIN. But are the facts different? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I don't believe the facts are different. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and +read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court +reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive +it or not? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. I would like to read it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe I could add something I didn't add. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in +touch with you. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. 3112 June Drive. + +Mr. BELIN. She can reach you at Dootch Motors? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Dootch Motors. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the address? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. 501 East Jefferson. + +Mr. BELIN. You did get notice of the taking of this deposition here +today? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You are here voluntarily appearing in front of the +Commission? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have +shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is +important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us. + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That is the reason I wanted to read this, in case I +might have left out something. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please thank whoever is the general manager at +Dootch Motors for letting you come here and appear before us? + +Mr. BENAVIDES. That is Mr. Harris. + +Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS + +The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on +April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be +sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the court reporter? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis. + +Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. + +Mr. BELIN. In Texas? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived in Athens? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, about 6 months. It was after the President was shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when the President was shot? + +Mrs. DAVIS. On November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long after that did you move to Athens? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 2 weeks after the President was shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, how long have you been married? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Seven months. + +Mr. BELIN. Any children? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. The time you moved to Athens would have been sometime in +December of 1963? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time, had you always lived in Dallas? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, after I got married we moved to Dallas and we lived +there ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got married, you moved to Dallas. Before you got +married, where did you live? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Palestine. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you raised there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I was raised in Athens. + +Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Athens. Did you go to school in Athens? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; I went to school in Palestine. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The ninth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever been employed at all? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, where were you living when you were living +in Dallas in November of 1963? + +Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that 400 East 10th? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what cross-street runs at 10th there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. 10th and Patton? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of house did you live in? Was it a brick or frame +home? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house. + +Mr. BELIN. A frame apartment house. You and your husband lived in one +apartment? + +Mrs. DAVIS. And my sister and her husband lived in another one. + +Mr. BELIN. There were two apartments there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. On the bottom floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your sister's name? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her husband's name is? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis. + +Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to the afternoon of November 22, do you +remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the boy that was known as Lee Harvey Oswald shot J. +D. Tippit. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, now, did you see him shoot J. D. Tippit? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see. Yes; we heard the shot. He had already +shot him. + +Mr. BELIN. You say you heard a shot? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I was over at my sister-in-law's. + +Mr. BELIN. Her apartment? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where in her apartment were you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I was in the living room. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in the living room? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down. + +Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or +what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa. + +Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the +couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed. + +Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children? + +Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5. + +Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard a shot. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone +had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. +Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure +that you heard two? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Mrs. Markham was trying to say---- + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her first name is? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. I just know her by Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you ever known her before? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and +my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. +Markham. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot +and then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We was already up. We ran to the door. + +Mr. BELIN. By we, who do you mean? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette and I. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to which door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The front door. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the front of the house facing East 10th Street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham was standing at the tree. + +Mr. BELIN. If we can picture the street intersection, was she standing +in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was on the sidewalk. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Your house would be located at the +southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would she be standing on a corner that would be right across +10th Street but on the same side of Patton, or across Would it be +catty-cornered or would it be across 10th Street but on the other side? +Maybe we can draw it here on a little paper. + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember it too good. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I have drawn on a piece of paper here a street +intersection and this is Patton and here is 400 East 10th, which would +be your house. Do you want to mark here where you think you saw Mrs. +Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. Do you +want to put an "X" there? + +Mr. BELIN. Please put an "X" there. + +Mrs. DAVIS. (Marks "X".) + +Mr. BELIN. I'm going to call that Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 1. +What was Mrs. Markham saying, or did you hear her say anything? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We heard her say "He shot him. He is dead. Call the police." + +Mr. BELIN. Was she saying this in a soft or loud voice? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the +time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of +the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you saw a boy. Do you know how old he was? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He didn't look like he was over 20. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color hair he had? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, the best I recall, he had sort of light brown. + +Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he tall or short or average height? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was about average height. + +Mr. BELIN. Fat, thin, or average weight? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Slim. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Slim. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers. + +Mr. BELIN. The trousers were black? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't recall that. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was open. + +Mr. BELIN. But you don't remember what kind of shirt he had on? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he look at you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. I don't think so. + +Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you first saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was cutting across our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. In what direction was he walking? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking---- + +Mr. BELIN. Away from Patton or towards Patton? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Towards Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, had he gotten up to your yard yet or +not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was cutting over across our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. He was cutting across your walk that leads up to the front +door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far from the main sidewalk on East 10th was he? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. About 3 feet or so? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; when I first saw him. + +Mr. BELIN. Then he was cutting across your sidewalk about 3 feet away +from the main sidewalk? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then did you see him--how long did you see him? Where did +you see him go? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him go around the corner of our house. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when he disappeared around that corner, that is the +last we saw of him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him go through any bushes by your house or not? +Or didn't you see him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you didn't see him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him when he cut across our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you last saw him? He was--was he still in +your yard, or was he on the sidewalk on Patton Street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was still in our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We already called the police. + +Mr. BELIN. You called the police before you saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. When Mrs. Markham was standing across the street hollering, +she told us to call the police, so Jeanette and I went in there, and +Jeanette called the police and we went back and he was cutting across +our yard, and we gave him time to go on because we were afraid he might +shoot us. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you call the police before or after you saw him cut +across your yard? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Before. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, to your--to the best of your recollection, +you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw Mrs. Markham--did you see +anything else when you saw Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of +the road. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment +house where he lives in and the house next door. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it on your side of East 10th or the other side of the +street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was on our side, the same side that we lived on. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your +right or towards your left? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer in a police car when you +first saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When your sister went to call the police, did you go with +her, or did you stay by the front door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I went with her. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you hear your sister do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she called the police and told whoever answered the +phone that there had been a murder out in front of our house, to come +quick. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did she do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She hung up and then we went back to the front door and +told the two kids to stay indoors. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went out in the front yard and right down to the +police car and that is when we saw the policeman lying on the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman lying? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was lying just, well, he was half between the front end +of his car and, well, his head was lying toward the front end of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he on the driver's side of the front or on the other +side? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was on the driver's side. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, now, as I understand your testimony, after you +made the call, you went out to the front yard, is that it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went out to see the policeman in the street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you went out in the front yard, were you in the front +yard when the man was going by there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he had already gone when we went outside. + +Mr. BELIN. He had already gone when you went outside? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I thought you said that when you went outside you went on +the sidewalk? + +Mrs. DAVIS. See, all the people had already--see, he was already gone. + +Mr. BELIN. Had he gone by at that time? + +Mrs. DAVIS. By the time we got back from off the phone, he had already +gone. He had already disappeared behind the corner of our house. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him going in front of your house before you +called on the phone? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. When we heard the second shot, we ran to the front +door, and that is when we saw the boy cutting across the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me see if I understand your statement now. You +went to the front door after you heard the second shot? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the front door? Did you open +the front door, or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just looked through the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. You looked through the front door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there a screen door on it or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was a screen door. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking through the screen door, or was the screen +door partially open, if you remember. + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was closed. We was looking through it. + +Mr. BELIN. You were looking through the screen door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you in front of your sister-in-law, or was she in front +of you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was in front of me. + +Mr. BELIN. You were both looking through the screen door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked through the screen door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw a boy walking, cutting across our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you first saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet from the sidewalk. Not the one that +comes up to our front door, but the other sidewalk. + +Mr. BELIN. He was about 3 feet from the front sidewalk on East 10th? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Had he come up to your sidewalk yet that comes up from East +10th to your front door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, he had already. He was about half on the concrete, I +think. + +Mr. BELIN. He was half on that concrete? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you watch this man do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We watched him unload the shells out of his gun. + +Mr. BELIN. What hand was he holding this gun in? + +Mrs. DAVIS. In the right. + +Mr. BELIN. He was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What was he doing with his left hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was emptying the shells in his left hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the gun broken open, so to speak? In other words. I +don't know if you have ever seen a capgun. When you want to load the +capgun, you have to kind of break it apart on a hinge. + +Was the gun broken apart like that, or was the barrel straight? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was like the real gun, little one. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it was just like? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little +pistol, and he was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, +he was emptying the shells into his left hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them +into his left hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because +we found two. + +Mr. BELIN. You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on +the ground or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see him. + +Mr. BELIN. You just saw him emptying shells in his hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't actually see what he did with them when he got +them in his hand, did you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see the man do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, he just cut across. He disappeared from behind the +corner of the house. + +Mr. BELIN. Going toward what street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, going toward Jefferson Street. + +Mr. BELIN. He was headed on Patton in the direction toward Jefferson? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually get to Patton Street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was already around the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him go around the corner of your home? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do or see then? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just went out, because we had already called the +police, notified them, and we went out in the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. You notified the police. Let me ask you this. Did you notify +the police before or after you saw the boy with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, I think it was before. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say before, what do you mean? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before we saw the boy. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you saw the boy you notified the police? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me try and reconstruct your actions then. You +heard the shots? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You ran to the door? + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you got to the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just saw, you know, the police car parked down +there and we wondered what was going on, so we heard Mrs. Markham +across the street calling. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she told us to call the police, well, so went to the +house. We was already in the house, and we went to the phone and called +the police. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went back to the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cutting across the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the +front yard and down to see what had happened. + +Mr. BELIN. Then is that when you saw the policeman? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I saw the policeman lying on the street. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or do anything else? Did you see +anyone else that you know come up to the policeman? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No sir; there was a lot of people around there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of day this was? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30, between +1:30 and 2. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, after this, did police come out there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they was already there. + +Mr. BELIN. By the time you got out there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried +to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and +picked him up. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. And we stood out there and talked to this woman who told us +that President Kennedy was shot. + +Mr. BELIN. About what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. This woman had told us that President Kennedy was shot. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. When the police cars was circling all the blocks, about +four or five blocks to see if they could find the boy, and we stayed +out there all that time to see if they would locate him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, did you tell the police, that you had seen anyone +with a gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we told them that we saw a boy carrying a gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, that was---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go down to the police station or identify him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. What day was that? This same day or another day? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Same day. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time of the day was it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was probably about 5:30. + +Mr. BELIN. Who went down with you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, let's see, my sister-in-law. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be Barbara Jeanette Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; and her husband Troy Lee and myself. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the police station? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We stayed there until this detective, some man walked up to +us and led us to this dark room. + +Mr. BELIN. Before they led you to the dark room, did he show you any +pictures of anyone? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures on television of anyone that might +be the man you saw walking with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you watched television at all? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't watch television. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any newspapers that afternoon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we didn't get the newspapers until that following +morning. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you went with the detective to a dark room? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the dark room? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He told us to sit down. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mrs. DAVIS. And then these five boys, or men walked up on this +platform, and he was No. 2. + +Mr. BELIN. You say he was No. 2. Who was No. 2? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean +the man you saw with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The man I saw carrying the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he white or a Negro man? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was white. + +Mr. BELIN. Were all the men in the lineup white men or some Negroes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. All of them were white. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you describe any other people in the lineup as to +whether they might be fat or thin or short or tall? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, one of them was sort, well, he was tall and slim. +And then the other one there, he was sort of chubby and he was short. +Then this other one, he was about the same height as the other one, +the last one I told you about, short and chubby. And the other one was +about--medium tall. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you identified someone in that lineup? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear your sister-in-law identify him first, or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I identified him first. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister when you identified him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was sitting right next to me. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you identify him? Did you yell that this is the man +I saw? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; I just leaned over and told the detective it was No. 2. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was the detective? Was he to your right or to your +left? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, to my right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister, to your right or to your left? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. As she was to your right, so you leaned over to the +detective and told the detective it was No. 2? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that happened that day? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Later did you ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on +television? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first see it on television? + +Mrs. DAVIS. When they was bringing him out of the jail out here. + +Mr. BELIN. When? + +Mrs. DAVIS. When they were bringing him out of the jail. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean Sunday when he got shot? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did this look, could you tell whether this was the same man +you saw running with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean from seeing his picture on television? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the man you identified as No. 2? Would you say +for sure that he was the man you saw running with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I would say that was him for sure. + +Mr. BELIN. What you are saying is that you couldn't necessarily tell +from the television picture? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. Our television was blurred anyway, so we couldn't +hardly tell. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that you signed a statement when you were +down at the Dallas Police Department at all, or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Virginia Davis +Deposition, Exhibit 2, and ask you to state if this is your signature +on here? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, Sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you read the contents of your deposition Exhibit 2, +and I will ask you if there is anything there that is inaccurate. + +(Reads statement.) + +Mr. BELIN. You have read Exhibit 2? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in that statement that is inaccurate in +any way? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that what you told the police of Dallas on November 22, +1963? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now on this statement it says that you heard a shot and then +another shot and ran to the side door at Patton Street. Was that the +side door or front door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he +was unloading his gun." Is that correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "We walked outside and a woman was hollering, +'He's dead, he's dead, he's shot.'" Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "This woman told Jeanette to call the police +and she did." Is that what happened? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. It says, "I saw the officer that had been shot lying on 10th +Street after Jeanette had called the police." Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now it says, "Jeanette found a empty shell that the man had +unloaded and gave it to the police." Did you see Jeanette find that +shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. I was right along behind her. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did she find it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She found it beside, well, the apartment was facing this +way. + +Mr. BELIN. Facing Patton Street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And we was already outside. We thought maybe we +could find some evidence for the police. So we went through the hedge, +and by my front door of the apartment where we live, right there in the +grass where he dropped them. + +Mr. BELIN. Had the police started to search around your house yet when +they found it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they already started to search. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have been to the side of the house or the corner +of the house that you found, that Jeanette found that shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was by the side. + +Mr. BELIN. This would have been by the side of the house that is next +to Patton Street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far from the front of the house would it be? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 5 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. About 5 feet. You saw Jeanette find the shell? You saw her +pick it up from the ground? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What color was it, do you remember? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The best I can recall, it was gray, one of these---- + +Mr. BELIN. The best you can recall, it was gray? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Jeanette do with it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She gave it to some detective. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see her find any other shells? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I found one after Jeanette, after all the police had gone. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you find yours? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 10 minutes after all the police had gone. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you went down to the police station? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was before. + +Mr. BELIN. About when before? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I would say it was about 2:30, or 4. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, when did you say you found this other shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 4. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see or know of anyone else finding any other shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did with your shell when you found +it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before I picked it up, this boy told me that was +walking along with us helping us find, see if we could find anything +for evidence, he told me the police would get me if I picked it up by +my fingers, and take fingerprints, and I got scared and ran to the +house and got a Kleenex tissue and brought back outside and wrapped the +shell in. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it when you wrapped the shell up? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette took it and put it in her apartment up on the +mantle-board. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Then about 5:30 the same day the police called and wanted +us to come down and identify him in the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with the shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I gave it to the police. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him at your house or down at the police +station? + +Mrs. DAVIS. They come and picked us up. + +Mr. BELIN. You gave it to the officer that came to pick you up? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his name was, or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now in your statement, Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 2, +now you state that, "Jeanette found an empty shell that the man had +unloaded and gave it to the police. After the police had left I found a +empty shell in our yard." Is this the same shell you gave to Detective +Dhority? Does the name Detective Dhority sound familiar to you now, or +don't you remember? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I never did hear the detective called. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't hear the detective's name called. + +Mr. BELIN. You say, "The man that was unloading the gun was the same +man that I saw tonight as No. 2 man in a lineup." Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, on this statement, Virginia Davis +Deposition Exhibit 2, it states that "We heard a shot and then another +shot and ran to side door at Patton Street." You say that should have +been the front door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That was supposed to be the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. You say, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was +unloading his gun. We walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'he's +dead, he's, he's shot'." "This woman told Jeanette to call the police +and she did." Now according to this statement, you saw the man cutting +across your yard before you called the police? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now this statement is wrong, is that correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. It is your testimony now, as I understand it, that you went +back in the house and you called the police, and then you went back +outside the house and saw the boy cutting across the yard? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. That is your statement now? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I hand you what is Deposition Exhibit 3, and ask you to +state if your signature appears on Deposition Exhibit 3? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. This appears to be an affidavit dated December 1, 1963, and +I would like you to read the statement if you would. + +Mrs. DAVIS. (Reads statement.) + +Mr. BELIN. You have now had an opportunity to read over Virginia Davis +Deposition Exhibit 3, is that correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate? + +Mrs. DAVIS. As I recall, this is all right on that statement. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I recall that is all right on that statement. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate, to +the best of your knowledge? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that you and your +sister-in-law were lying on the bed with the two children when you +heard a loud bang, and immediately following the first report there was +another loud bang and you jumped up and ran to the front door? Is that +correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When we got to the door and went out on the +porch, I saw a man who I later that day identified at the Dallas Police +Department." Is that correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, according to this statement, you saw the man when you +first got to the door and went out on the porch? Now, did you see him +then, or did you see him---- + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him cut across after he had shot the policeman. We +saw him cut across our yard, and that is the last we saw of him. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, now, you actually didn't see him shoot the policeman, +did you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw----just saw the man with the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I just saw the man with the gun cutting across the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. After you heard some shots? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After I heard the two shots. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, about how soon after you heard the two shots did you +get to the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we didn't even put on our shoes. We just run to the +front door. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it a matter of seconds or a matter of minutes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. A matter of seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got there, you opened the door, and what did you +see? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy or man cut across the yard. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, and he had a revolver in his hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. In his right hand or left hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. In his right. + +Mr. BELIN. This statement goes on to say that "The man had a revolver +in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right +hand." Is that right or wrong? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Wrong. + +Mr. BELIN. It was the other way around? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way around. + +Mr. BELIN. You got to the door and you opened the door, and what did +you see now? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across our yard unloading the shells +out of his gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham, this woman, was standing across the street +hollering to us to call the police. So we went back in there and called +the police. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, this statement says, goes on to say, "This +man was coming across the yard and was almost to the walk which leads +directly to the porch and is in a direct line with the front door." + +Is that where the man was when you first saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the +shells out of it into his right hand." + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. But you say "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was +shaking the shells out of it into his right hand. As the man passed +directly in front of us, he looked up for a second or so and then +continued on across the yard to Patton Street in a normal walk." Was he +walking or running when you saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he look up at you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. DAVIS. Pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, you just remember kind of seeing him from a side +view? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. "At about this time, a woman directly across the +intersection from our house yelled out, 'He's dead, he's dead, he shot +him.'" + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. "The man glanced up at the woman and kept on walking." Did +you see the man glance up at Mrs. Markham when she was yelling? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we saw when he looked over at Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Mrs. Markham do anything when he looked at her? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; she was over there just hollering and screaming. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see her raise her hand to her face in any way? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. She raised both her hands to her face. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw her do that? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see her do anything else? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You say, "He walked around the corner of the house that +faces Patton Street and out of sight." Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. "Barbara Davis and I returned to the house where she called +the police." Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. According to the statement then, it says that your sister +Barbara Jeanette called the police after you saw the man, is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. "After she called the police, we went back out on the porch +but by then the man we had seen with the gun was no longer in sight." + +Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When the police arrived we searched the area +on the side of the house that faces Patton Street, and Barbara found a +gunshell that had been fired." It that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. "After the police left we again searched the area and I +again found a gunshell that had been fired. I later turned this shell +over to the Dallas Police Department." Is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I have been given an opportunity to make +additions and corrections on this statement, and it is true to the best +of my knowledge and belief." + +Did they give you an opportunity to make additions and corrections on +the statement? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. They did not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they read the statement back to you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. They may have but you don't remember. + +Mrs. DAVIS. May have but I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you and I never talked about this matter +until the court reporter started taking your testimony, have we? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I never met you before, is that correct? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with any person in connection with the +President's Commission before we started taking your testimony here? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to be certain that we get this time sequence correct +as to when you saw the man with the gun and when the police were +called, so I am just going to ask you to sit for about 30 seconds and +just think as to just what did happen, and then just tell the court +reporter in your own words just what did happen there. + +(Three minutes of silence.) + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you may not be able to remember just what +exactly the time sequence was. You have been sitting here about 3 +minutes, and if you don't remember what the time sequence was, why I +would like to have you so state. But if you do remember--or do you want +more time to think about it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the best I can remember, it was before that we saw +the boy cut across the yard that we called the police, the best that I +can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, it is your testimony, as I understand it +now, that you heard the shot, and then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the second shot and we ran to the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across the yard, and we had seen this +woman was coming home from work, she had on a uniform, that was Mrs. +Markham--we didn't know it was at the time, but she saw all that happen. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cut across our yard. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the door, did you also see Mrs. +Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see both at approximately the same time? I will ask +you whom did you see first, Mrs. Markham, or the boy cutting across the +yard? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The boy. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the boy first? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is who we saw first. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you saw Mrs. Markham second? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the boy say anything? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Markham say anything? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when she got across the other street, 10th, she +hollered, "He's dead, he's dead, he shot him." + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did she say? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we called the police. Notified them. + +Mr. BELIN. So you called the police after you saw the boy? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After we saw the boy. + +Mr. BELIN. And Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes. Is that your testimony, to +the best of your recollection? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is my testimony. + +Mr. BELIN. I want to ask you again, did you call the police before or +after you saw the boy? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was after. + +Mr. BELIN. It was after? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; after, the best that I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. The best you can remember, you called the police before or +after you saw the boy? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Before or after? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After. + +Mr. BELIN. After you saw the boy, you went back in the house and called +the police? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven't +talked about that might be helpful in this investigation? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any ambulance come up to where Officer Tippit +was? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I saw the ambulance. + +Mr. BELIN. You got there before the ambulance, did you not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we got there before. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the ambulance get there first or the police get there +first? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The ambulance got there first. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone making any calls over Tippit's radio? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to Tippit's car, did you take a look at that +police car? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't touch it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you look at it? Did you notice whether its windows were +rolled up or rolled down? + +Mrs. DAVIS. The one on his side was rolled down. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the passenger side of the front seat, +did you notice that? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Rolled up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that rolled up? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now the front window has kind of a little window in it. +Do you know that little tiny part of the front window that opens and +closes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether that one on the front seat by the +right side of the front seat was open or not? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. It was not open? Or you don't---- + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone make any statements that they had seen +anything other than Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see a taxicab parked anywhere in the vicinity? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no. + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I think I have told it all. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, Mrs. Davis, we want to thank you very much for +taking the time and the effort to come here. I know that this whole +episode has taken time on your part, and we certainly appreciate your +cooperation with the President's Commission. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. + +Page 4: "lactated renger solution" should be "lactated Ringer's +solution". + +Page 6: "larynzo scope" should be "laryngoscope". + +Page 248: "1:30 a.m." probably is a misprint. + +Page 254: "Van Alstyne" is also printed as "Van Alystyne"; the first +one is correct. + +Page 286: "an attempt to get and was" may have omitted a word after +"get". + +Page 321: "assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43" may have omitted a word +after "sometime". + +Page 321: "suppose to" may be a misprint for "supposed to". + +Page 322: "out of this man" probably should be "out on this man". + +Page 323: "window of Texas School Book" probably missing "the" after +"of". + +Page 334: "sometimes around" probably should be "sometime". + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings +Vol. VI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44006 *** |